Call me a contrarian, but the latest story on government spying doesn’t have the same punch as Bush’s FISA imbroglio, although the timing is practically Groucho Marx. Here’s the skinny:
Counterterrorism agents at the Federal Bureau of Investigation have conducted numerous surveillance and intelligence-gathering operations that involved, at least indirectly, groups active in causes as diverse as the environment, animal cruelty and poverty relief, newly disclosed agency records show.
The Patriot Act, of course, loosened rules about who could be watched and how. So people have a right to be concerned when we find out that the government seems to paint ‘terrorism’ with a rather broad brush:
[T]he documents, coming after the Bush administration’s confirmation that President Bush had authorized some spying without warrants in fighting terrorism, prompted charges from civil rights advocates that the government had improperly blurred the line between terrorism and acts of civil disobedience and lawful protest.One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a “Vegan Community Project.” Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group’s “semi-communistic ideology.” A third indicates the bureau’s interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
To be honest, FBI surveillance of domestic groups is nothing new. As much as I’d prefer that they spend some energy on the armed crazies, which might have headed off genuine terror attacks such as Tim McVeigh and Eric Rudolph, we in the environmental community knew that we lived under federal scrutiny. When Patriot removed the red tape it seemed like a no-brainer that the FBI would go on doing what they’ve always been doing, only more intrusively. That’s why some people braved the hysterical demagoguery of the ’02 midterms to suggest that Patriot might be a bad idea. There’s nothing wrong with fighting terrorism, but there’s nothing in the Act that says that you and your dog aren’t terrorists.
This is where timing comes in – you can’t write a better coda for Russ Feingold’s successful effort to shut down reauthorization of the Patriot Act than this story. If we’re going to revisit the sweeping federal powers enumerated in Patriot, let’s take a serious look at what has actually been done in its name and ask whether that’s what we want our government to be doing.
Doctor Gonzo
Yes, there are some wackos in some of these groups, but given that FBI resources are not infinite, isn’t there something better that these resources could be used on?
Paul Wartenberg
So it’s come to this: we’re spying on hippies. Again.
I’m sorry but how many of these organizations have Osama “Have You Seen Me?” Bin-Laden as a dues-paying member? Why are we tracking after tree huggers when there are bomb-making extremists from Al-Blowyaup, Yemen that deserve far greater attention? When was the last time we had terror attacks from vegans?
Jack Roy
Hey, vegans are terrorists. They’re terrorizing me, telling me that eggs are bad for me. So… you know, they deserve it.
Perry Como
So you want the terrorists to win.
Lines
How come we arn’t talking about all the good that .. oh fuck it.
I’m tired of any simplistic asshole defending the governmental right to spy on citizens when the inherent Right to Privacy has been determined by multiple Supreme Courts. Is this the America our forefathers would be proud of? I hear these jack-booted idiots on the talk shows going off about how they “have nothing to hide” and so on. Bullshit. Those idiots are the ones burying 10 SKS’s in the backyard and heading up to the “retreat” around Randy Weaver’s old house. For how long was it “we will not let Terrorists change our way of life” and now look at us! We’re spying on Vegans and peace marches, but according to TallDave, thats just fine with him, those people must deserve to be spied on.
Ancient Purple
Semi-communistic ideology, huh?
Well, I guess all the monestaries, convents and the like are now going to be watched even more closely by the Feds.
Great allocation of resources there.
Brian
Like the other surveillance story, we need more info. The NYT seems to have a backlog of stories like this, and I expect a new one by the end of this week. We are left to sift through the facts, gather more background, listen in for the legal opinions from those qualified to speak, and see how it shakes out.
But, to play Devil’s advocate, do we not have what can be considered eco-terrorists in our country? The shrieks coming from Greenpeace and PETA only give me the comfort that the FBI might be onto something, with homegrown activist groups adopting the methods of global terrorists to achieve their ends.
Davebo
Shorter Brian….
Look, we don’t have all the facts, the NY Times has been saving up these stories for effect, and hey, shouldn’t we have arrested every spotted owl in America on Sep. 12th 2001?
They say everything changed after 9/11 but this has a very familiar ring to it.
Steve
Sure, there are such things as domestic terrorists. Tell me, was the FBI spying on Operation Rescue as well as these liberal groups?
Lines
yeah, you know scratching a Hummer is just as bad as firebombing an abortion clinic. Those damn eco-terrorists, trying to get Americans to preserve the earth through methods unharmful to other people. Can you terrorize Hummers and boats?
cd6
Finally, we can get all the info on the homos trying to outlaw Christmas
no thanks to you commie tree hugger abortionists
Brian
Honestly, Steve, I hope that they were looking into Op. Rescue if they are/were up to the same activities as the others. This is all old news, guys. The FBI’s been doing this as part of their job investigating domestic criminals. These groups actively, sometimes openly, engage in violent or destructive crimes, and the FBI would be remiss in thier duties if they did not look into them.
The NYT, I think, is regurgitating the ACLU’s talking points as “news”. We’re left to figure out all the facts. I’m skeptical that the story has any legs beyond being a fart in a tornado.
stickler
Yeah, “everything changed…” back to 1972. Spying, COINTELPRO, failing war abroad, impending gas shortages, behemoth American-made cars sitting forlorn on dealers’ lots, and really mediocre pop music on the radio. Yummy, yummy, yummy, I got love in my tummy.
Ancient Purple
Oh, it gets so much better folks!
Yup. We better keep an eye on those gays and their terrorist-like “kiss ins” because I just knew that radical Islamic terrorists have such a soft spot in their hearts for gays.
I can’t wait for the FBI to inform us that “Brokeback Mountain” was filled with “code” for terrorists.
Richard Bottoms
Well said.
Gray
Regarding the many noncritical voices from the right, I was thinking about McVeigh, too. Many rightwingers seem to think false accusations, indefinite jailing, not-quite-torture can’t happen to them. The story of Oregon lawyer Mayfield already seems to be forgotten. They should take a careful look at their surroundings, if there’s a remote link to a hateful crazy who might be able to pull a ‘Oklahoma’ type madness. Good point, Tim, but I really wish JC would have wrote this…
nyrev
PETA would get more sympathy from me if they’d quit sending money to people who like to burn things. But since they still compare the ALF (which routinely burns down university laboratories and was responsible for a nasty bout of mailing scientists envelopes rigged with razor-blades a few years ago) to the Underground Railroad*, I think the domestic terrorist label might fit.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that the government spying on environmental and human rights groups is a load of shit. But if we’re trying to point out that something fishy is going on, including PETA in the list of the innocents maligned is counterproductive.
*In PETA’s FAQ
DougJ
How come we never hear about all the activist groups that the government isn’t spying on?
The media never reports the *good news* about the fact that the NSA is now monitoring the communication of the Scarsdale High School Chess Club, after one of its members rented the movie “Reds” at a local Blockbuster.
DougJ
Or in your case, listen to the legal opinions of Al Maviva.
SmilingPolitely
I guess it was naive of me to think that Geogie Porgie wouldn’t give the Texas Cattle Industry carte blanche to use the FBI and NSA for their own nefarious purposes.
How long before Oprah is thrown in the gulag for being a “Hamburger Terrorist”?
DougJ
Just to play devil’s advocate here: what if we sent everyone who didn’t vote for George Bush to Gitmo and tortured them to see if they might be involved with Bob Barker’s anti-animal cruelty reign of terror? John Yoo wrote a legal brief showing that the president has the right to do this.
The Other Steve
It’s the ELF guys who have been involved in eco-terrorism. PETA and ALF are more into vandalism and releasing animals.(to what purpose, I never understand)
Not much of a fan of all of them, and frankly I think PETA does more damage to animals than good.
DougJ
Fuck it, Steve, let’s just send them all to Gitmo: PETA, ELF, ALF, the cast of the show Alf, the ACLU, the ALF-CIO. They all hate America. Let’s start torturing them before they start blowtorching our bridges.
The Other Steve
Yes, and Al Maviva confirmed that it is legally justified under Article II of the Constitution, given Bob Barker once gave away a living room set to a suspected terrorist who correctly guessed the price without going over.
demimondian
The irony of this is that the surveillance of legitimately terrorist-associated groups like PETA will be used to cover for the surveillance of groups like OUTlaw, ignoring the fact that the FBI already had the necessary tools to watch PETA, precisely because of their interlocking infrastructure with ALF.
Meanwhile, the political intimidation of administration opponents proceeds unchecked. I thought the Republicans had learned from Nixon and the plumbers. It looks like I was right — they learned you can get away with it.
Brian
C’mon folks, get real and stop the sarcasm about Bush and Gitmo, etc. If you don’t understand what I’m getting at, you can start here or here.
And this is just the ELF we’re talking about. If you’re not willing to have a serious dialogue about this, then you’re not serious period.
demimondian
Steve: Terrorism doesn’t require death to work. ALF has targetted animal researchers for laboratory destruction for years. Losing your research stock means the end of your career — the stocks take literally decades to create and select, and are unique and irreplacable. (And, to head off a common question “Why don’t scientists send copies around?” They do. Unfortunately, (a) many labs have stocks which cannot be maintained in a common repository, and (b) the repositories have, themselves, been targetted.)
DougJ
You think I’m being sarcastic, Brian?
Tim F.
Brian wrote:
Yes, they’re called rightwingers. I already mentioned McVeigh and Eric Rudolph.
Lines
Hey, I was serious before 9/11, but it changed everything!
When the list of domestic terrorism suspects is released on a FOIA request and nowhere is there a mention of the groups that advocate killing homosexuals and bombing abortion clinics, then there is no point in taking the people who made the list serious.
Now can we get an ELF vs. Alf cagematch? Without having the FCC go all anti-terrorism on us?
DougJ
Brian, I think maybe we should start wire tapping you. I don’t trust you — you know a little too much about ELF. I’m starting to think that you’re an ELF member posing as a Bush supporter to pump information from us, so that you can blowtorch our briges.
Well, Brian, homey don’t play that. If you want to blowtorch bridges, you’ll be doing it without my help, witting or otherwise. I’m dropping a dime and calling Homeland Security on your unAmerican ass.
Mike S
I don’t have a problem with watching domestic groups that rely on terror. I wonder if we’ll see any anti abortion groups that bomb clinics listed.
Bill O’Reilly makes terrorist threats all the time. As does John Gibson. Let’s round them up.
ats
They HAD to spy on the Vegans and the rest. You’ll recall that Gonzales said we had a right to spy on “anyone with AlQaeda connections,” so Bush had leftover writs for 15m Iraqis to use up. The Vegans are just the beginning. Acupuncturists are next, followed by the Hari Krishnas at the (!) airports.
DougJ
Those are some scary ass eco-terrorist sites you sent me to, Brian.
Brian
See DougJ, you’re not serious at all. That last comment was indicative of that. The sites were not meant to scare anyone, but to show that terrorist acts (or crimes, if you’d prefer that) come in may variations, and that’s what the FBI is charged with investigating, is it not?
I must admit, you caught me. Please don’t tell them that I spit into Tookie’s open casket yesterday or that I plan to toss stink bombs at his funeral procession today here in L.A.
Paul Wartenberg
No, I want the hippies to win. There’s a difference.
DougJ
Brian, the sad thing is that you are actually serious, I think. That or you’re the best fake I’ve ever seen.
Brian
If I may riff on O’Reilly, Hannity, et al for a moment.
I do not understand the outrage that the Left gets into over these guys. I would love to see a representative sampling of their audience. I’d bet it would show that it’s composed of Leftist ideologues who love to simmer with ill feelings about Bush and conservatives. Conservatives, like me, don’t watch these guys. They’re buffoons and blowhards.
Another Rove plant? The man’s a GENIUS!!
ats
If George Bush had the least historical sense he would have called these permits “Writs of Assistance,” but I forgot–the 18th C King George actually APPLIED for them.
Brian
Serious about what, DougJ? Everything? Tookie? Stink bombs?
DougJ
I’d bet it would show that it’s composed of Leftist ideologues who love to simmer with ill feelings about Bush and conservatives.
“Love to simmer with ill feelings”?
Give me your address and I’ll send you a copy of Strunk and White.
Gratefulcub
Brian,
Yes, but also:
I know some vegans. Crazy, maybe, terrorists, they don’t have the energy from lack of protein. And those crazy ass catholics. i guess they aren’t born again enough to trust.
Are they monitoring John Lennon’s grave?
Al Maviva
Hey, for the record DougJ, I think any attempts to penetrate Greenpeace, based on what I know about the group, are outrageous. If this was done just based on some general notion of Greenpeace posing a threat, politically or otherwise – the article is a little unclear on what was done to whom – then the agents who did it and the attorneys who authorized it should hang. While I agree with protecting the environment, I’m a fan of regulated market solutions, and I completely disagree with about 90% of what Greenpeace says and does, much of which strikes me as simplistic and emotionally satisfying fundraising grist that doesn’t change any minds in the real world. It is the prototypical watermelon enviro group – green on the outside, red on the inside, environmentalism as somewhat hysterical lefty political theater rather than as science and a serious political issue. (I’ll take the Nature Conservancy, or on occasion the Sierra Club any day). But as far as I know, the extent of Greenpeace activism ends at some low level civil disobedience, not much different from what the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee would have supported. Their free speech is absolutely protected, and their civil disobedience – their right to go to a spot and sit down and refuse to move or whatever, is protected insofar as the state can’t try to outlaw the message. Sit-ins are fine; screwing with afloat operations of navies is not fine. As long as they are on the unobtrusive civil law breaking side of law breaking, and not substantially violating other people’s rights, the Feds don’t have any business trying to counteract what they are doing. I can’t imagine more fundamental political expression than picketing and speechmaking and letter writing.
As for PETA/ALF/ELF – go ahead and just call me a nazi, I’m not disturbed they are under investigation as long as the means employed by the FBI are lawful. Distinction should be made between the three groups though.
If you think ALF and ELF are justified in their methods, then you should be okay with people laying death threats on your, or burning up your business or home because they disagree with you politically. The European wing of ELF in particular – in spite of internationally shared ideology nobody is quite sure how tightly the ELF cells are tied together operationally – has engaged in “attacks on property”, so-called, that have injured people. I’m pretty sure domestic versions of the two groups have only cost hundreds of millions in property damage with no deaths so far, but when firebombing is your preferred tactic, it’s only a matter of time. Investigation and surveillance and penetration of ALF and ELF, if conducted within the confines of criminal and constitutional law, are per se fine in my book.
In contrast, PETA ought to generally be presumed legit and off limits to investigation unless there is some reasonable suspicion that they are engaged in an illegal activity. Law enforcement agencies should keep their eyes open to publicly available information about what is going on in the community, but as for actively investigating a group, especially an expressive group organized around some First Amendment concern, law enforcement must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed before attempting an enforcement action. I believe this is the standard which the FBI claims to follow per its own regulations when dealing with First Amendment protected groups, but I may be mistaken. Above and beyond the presumption of innocence that any person or corporation gets, a First Amendment oriented group deserves additional deference and tact in the investigation, to avoid a state sponsored chilling of freedom of speech and freedom of conscience.
To the extent PETA provides material support for ELF or ALF, however, I think that would provide a predicate for action and PETA should come under lawful and tactful law enforcement scrutiny. That means that there must be a valid predicate for action, legally obtained; and any law enforcement operations must be conducted per federal statute and constitution.
There is a big difference between Al Qaida and PETA, and it would be evidence of acute moral and pragmatic political blindness to assume that as a matter of policy, they should be treated the same way.
Hey, shouldn’t you be trolling Protein Wisdom or something?
Brian
I agree with you there. Completely agreed.
DougJ
Hey, shouldn’t you be trolling Protein Wisdom or something?
Thanks for reminding me, Al. Sorry I take so many pot shots at you, I just like saying “Al Maviva” — it’s a good name.
DougJ
Stay away from Brian, though, Al, unless you’re willing to add an “I’m with stupid” tagline to your comments.
Gratefulcub
This is no more about Peta or Alf than the FISA controversy is about terrorists. Most people would agree that monitoring terrorists and eccoterrorists (and yes, burning hummers and housing projects is terrorism of a sort, one day there will be someone in a house) is a good thing.
The problem is they rules have been changed and oversight removed. Now the tools are being used to monitor quakers and political activists. You can’t defend these actions by explaining how horrible ALF is.
Brian
DougJ,
You put the “ill-informed” in the “ill-informed banter” on this website’s main page.
Gray
“Like the other surveillance story, we need more info.”
Brian, of course we need more info, but will we get it from the super-secretive Bush administration? Not until there is a nationwide uproar about the possible abuse of power and a broad public resolutely demanding an investigation. ‘Let’s wait and see’ is the wrong approach to this news. “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” And you can’t take liberty for granted anymore, you have to fight for it.
DougJ
Brian, your attempts at wit are an abysmal failure.
You could learn a lot from Al and Darrell.
Gray
DougJ, Brian, imho your argument hasn’t contributed anything meaningful to this discussion so far. :|
Dexter
I think Brian made a few good points. DougJ was a moron as usual.
Krista
Makes you wonder if they’re monitoring the groups that have been involved in abortion-clinic bombings just as closely as they’d monitor vegans and PETA.
I’m thinking no. But feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Dexter
The abortion bombers are not nearly the threat that PETA and ELF are, Krista. The abortion bombers only strike abortion clinics, whereas there is no way of predicting were ELF will strike next. That’s what makes ELF so dangerous.
Krista
Don’t forget Alfred E. Neuman, the cast of the movie Elf, and all actual elves. (Boy, is Santa going to be pissed…but he’s in league with the terrorists anyway, look at the anagram of his name! You think that’s a coincidence?)
demimondian
My problem with PETA is that they seem to bear much the same relationship to ALF that Sinn Fein bears to the NRA, or that Greenpeace used to bear to EarthFirst.
This is off-topic, but what are the standards that the FBI must meet to fairly investigate whether a group is a legitimate-appearing front for an illegal organization?
demimondian
Krista — I didn’t know you were in on the secret.
Still, isn’t it scary? Ansat, the “weather” satellite in the south-eastern pacific, is just Santa’s way of keeping track of who’s naughty and nice in Australia and New Zealand.
Krista
Exactly…this man evidently enters all of our homes! He leaves parcels in our living rooms! How do we know that he’s not leaving dirty bombs? Don’t trust anybody with a long beard, remember?
On a more serious note, I wonder if Bush has also been spying on his opponents and those who work with them, like MoveOn? It really wouldn’t surprise me…
demimondian
Hey, hold on here…Kris, Krista…both of you are from “up north”.
Damn it, I’ve been DougJ’ed by Kris Kringle!
Brian
Gray,
I didn’t realize that I was here to inform you in particular. And, since you brought it up, what have you to contribute to this discussion? I think I have raised many valid and useful points. Have you read any of them, or do you prefer to focus on DougJ’s meaningless and pointless responses to my posts?
John S.
Everyone thinks that their thoughts are meaningful – even when they aren’t. It all stems from mommy convincing us that we are special, and that our bottoms are softer and better than everyone else’s.
Brian
John,
A useless statement to go along with Gray’s. Not constructive in the least.
nyrev
What demimondian said.
At the risk of raising scs’s hackles by quoting “qualifications” at her, I’m coming at this from the point of view of a granola-crunching environmental scientist here. Ask me about ecological engineering or sustainablity measures, and I’m probably in a club being monitored by the FBI for supporting it. ALF and ELF (and by virtue of fundraising, PETA) is bad people. Lumping them in with the Sierra Club and the ACLU as activist groups being unfairly persecuted by the government is insulting to the Sierra Club, the ACLU, and all the other non-terroristic activist groups being persecuted by the government.
John S.
No more or less constructive than your gratuitous praising of yourself as the only reasonable poster around here.
Brian
Listen, if you’re going to claim I don’t make meaningful comments, then break down my comments to demonstrate how. If you can’t or won’t do that, you’re not being constructive. Get it?
John S.
Listen, if you’re going to claim that only your comments are worth reading and everyone else is a maroon, don’t come out swinging about how constructive such comments are when you know damn well they aren’t. Opinions are like assholes – everyone has them, and I am entitled to voice whatever opinion I like. The wrinkle is that what I stated was a fact: People do tend to think somehow their opinion is better than someone else’s simply because it is their own (as you’ve shown us a fine example of). Get it?
Steve S
Wow, and the Conservatives never do this. Actually whenever the wingnuts are outraged about somebody, you are pretty much guaranteed it’s someone nobody ever listens to.
Frankly, I don’t listen to any of them, but I’m still simmering with my ill feelings.
Steve S
And I still don’t know what problem you guys have with Alf. Sure, maybe he ate housecats, but that was just a harmless little quirk of his.
demimondian
Well, you know. Eating cats is just an overblown fraternity prank.
Gray
“DougJ, Brian, imho your argument hasn’t contributed anything meaningful to this discussion so far. :|”
Gray
“I think I have raised many valid and useful points.”
Brian
Brian, pls read my quote again. I did say that your argument with Doug wasn’t adding anything of value to this thread. And I want to add, I don’t even think either one of you has been remotely funny. I didn’t say you didn’t raise valid points outside of your ‘dialogue’ with Doug. Pls note that just one posting above the one you’re critizising, I actually respond to one of your better comments, ok?