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You are here: Home / A Victory for Cavities

A Victory for Cavities

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More teabagger insanity:

The Pinellas County Commission will meet at 9:30 a.m. Tuesday with the drinking water fluoridation issue — and its polarized sides — primed for debate again.

While the board is supposed to decide only when to shut off the fluoride from going into water, Commissioner Ken Welch said Monday that he has another plan.

“I’m going to ask the prevailing side to reconsider their vote,” said Welch, a supporter of fluoride.

The board voted 4-3 last week to stop the 7-year-old practice, despite warnings from dentists that fluoride in drinking water is safe and effective fighting cavities.

The majority — Commissioners Nancy Bostock, Neil Brickfield, John Morroni and Norm Roche — sided with fears of big government and fluoride-related maladies.

***

“Water fluoridation is not much different than sending a fluoride Gestapo around every day to force everyone to take fluoride pills, it is unethical and doctors who advocate this are in violation of peoples rights and ethics,” David Jackson wrote.

As commenter El Cid points out, these teahadists really are just crazy old-school Birchers.

Reader Interactions

138Comments

  2. 2.

    Certified Mutant Enemy

    Water fluoridation is not much different than sending a fluoride Gestapo around every day to force everyone to take fluoride pills, it is unethical and doctors who advocate this are in violation of peoples rights and ethics,” David Jackson wrote.

    To be consistent, all water treatment should be thought of this way, therefore David Jackson shouldn’t care if there’s some raw sewage in his drinking water…

  3. 3.

    El Cid

    And here right wingers are all angry at the popular librul portrayal of right wing white Southerners as toothless paranoids.

  7. 7.

    Gin & Tonic

    Wow. I remember some of this from when I was in grade school and didn’t understand it. Who could have imagined it’d be back? Oh, and I still don’t understand it.

  8. 8.

    dmsilev

    I guess we can now say that history repeats itself, first as black comedy cinema, and then as real life farce.

    Though I guess they get a few originality points for shifting from Communism to Nazism for the source of the nefarious additive.

  10. 10.

    dmsilev

    @cleek:

    won’t somebody think of the precious bodily fluids!

    I suggest drinking a mixture of grain alcohol and rainwater.

    With a twist of lemon.

  12. 12.

    El Cid

    @dmsilev: No, they didn’t; Teabircher leader Tony Caso proclaimed that this was the Yooessuvay, and not the Soviet Soshullist Republic.

  14. 14.

    Jay in Oregon

    It must be tiring being a teabagger, having to re-fight every decision made since the founding of the Republic.

  15. 15.

    JGabriel

    David Jackson:

    Water fluoridation is not much different than sending a fluoride Gestapo around every day to force everyone to take fluoride pills …

    The Flouride Police, they live inside of my head
    The Flouride Police, they come to me in my bed
    The Flouride Police, they’re coming to arrest me
    Oh Noooo!

    .

  17. 17.

    Yutsano

    It’s just a jobs program for all those dental hygenists out of work in Florida. Why do you hate our dentists?

  21. 21.

    catclub

    So we tell the teabaggers that flouride is in the fracking fluids the gas drillers are using to pollute the water supply. Then, they either decide flouride is not so bad, or start opposing fracking… or best of all, their heads explode!

  22. 22.

    Facebones

    Damn, 10 minutes and everyone wrote all the Dr. Strangelove jokes I was going to.

    I’ll just add that POE OPE makes a brief appearance in Raising Arizona on a bathroom door the bounty hunter kicks down.

    Also, I’ll bet they still blame the gummint for all of their cavities in five years.

  24. 24.

    different-church-lady

    @Facebones:

    Damn, 10 minutes and everyone wrote all the Dr. Strangelove jokes I was going to.

    The “string in my leg” bit is still available.

  29. 29.

    Surly Duff

    I’m sorry, but picturing a “Flouride Gestapo” really is hilarious. I never thought that Godwin’s Law would ever be invoked over tooth health.

  31. 31.

    Paul in KY

    @dmsilev: I think it is the first time as tragedy & the second time as farce. We, unfortunately, seem to be in the 1st iteration.

  33. 33.

    Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen

    doctors who advocate this are in violation of peoples rights and ethics

    In other words, every MD save for one whackaloon on my side (and so what if he lost his license because he treated all of his patients with beet juice enemas) is evil.

    Right.

    Can we ship all of the anti-vacs loons down there? I mean, if Water Fluoridation = Water Nazis then requiring little kids to get jabbed in the arm before they can attend school must be … Super-Duper Nazis to the Nth Power.

  35. 35.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    Ignoring the trolls, does anyone know where a good study of the effects of fluoride in the drinking water on teeth quality is located?

  36. 36.

    Gilles de Rais

    Good Christ, the teatards have been shitting themselves over this since before I was born…and I’m old.

    Oh well, guess we’ll find out if human beings can survive with no teeth. Evolution in action and all that.

  37. 37.

    Paul in KY

    @Surly Duff: Vee haf information that you are cleaning your child’s teeth wif der Flouride! You vill answer without making any ‘Dr. Strangelove’ reference, mach schnell!! (arm shoots up in nazi salute)

  38. 38.

    piratedan

    well it sounds like this region is ready for a whole new set of businesses, an apothecary, an alchemist and cross training the local barbers until they can get a proper physician in there to leech people.

  39. 39.

    slag

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Ignoring the trolls, does anyone know where a good study of the effects of fluoride in the drinking water on teeth quality is located?

    Mein Kampf?

    Seriously, I don’t know. Not a bad question. The internet is imperfect in so many regards.

  40. 40.

    JGabriel

    The comments to the flouridation story are hilarious. For instance, I have just learned that there is part-time dentist in Canada named, “Hardy Limeback“.

    Nyscof:

    Dentist Hardy Limeback, Ph.D., University of Toronto Professor and Head, Preventive Dentistry, apologized for promoting fluoridation because toxicology research shows the purported benefits no longer outweigh the risks.

    Then there are the more practical protesters, like “IMHO”:

    In our house we’ve always drunk bottled water (except when making tea or coffee). Not because of the fluoride but because it tastes like crap.

    And the less practical, from “ac4aq”:

    Fluoridation is a communist plot. There is nothing greater you could do for oral health than prohibit beverages containing phosphoric acid, such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola, etc.

    And yet this still doesn’t capture the ebb and flow of people arguing over flouride and teeth, the comic pitter patter rhythm of the clueless and the insane.

    Though perhaps the tone of the whole comment thread is best summed up in the knowingly exasperated single-word final comment, from one “Tarpley”:

    Rednecks.

    .

  43. 43.

    Roger Moore

    @jwest:
    I notice that while they talk a lot about how science is turning against fluoridation, they only quote a bunch of dentists rather than referring to any of the actual scientific literature that’s supposed to support their position. Funny how that works; it’s almost as if the literature they’re talking about is defective somehow and they don’t want to show it to people for fear they’ll point and laugh.

  44. 44.

    slag

    @JGabriel:

    Though perhaps the tone of the whole comment thread is best summed up in the single-word final comment, from one “Tarpley”:

    Rednecks.

    I laughed. Out loud.

  47. 47.

    slag

    @Roger Moore: Why even get into the weeds on the science when the real thrust of the issue is here:

    “Water fluoridation is not much different than sending a fluoride Gestapo around every day to force everyone to take fluoride pills, it is unethical and doctors who advocate this are in violation of peoples rights and ethics,” David Jackson wrote.

    ?

    The argument has nothing to do with science. Let’s not enable the pretense.

  49. 49.

    Roger Moore

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Ignoring the trolls, does anyone know where a good study of the effects of fluoride in the drinking water on teeth quality is located?

    I would probably start with the Wikipedia article on water fluoridation and look for whatever references they have to the primary literature. I wouldn’t trust the Wikipedia article by itself, but the references should be helpful.

    IIRC, though, the initial impetus behind fluoridation was from epidemiological research. Some areas naturally have low levels of fluoride in their water because it passes through or over fluoride containing rocks. Epidemiologists noticed that areas that had naturally fluoridated water had significantly fewer cavities than areas that didn’t have natural fluoridation. It’s also good evidence that low levels of fluoride aren’t harmful, since people have been drinking naturally fluoridated water for ages without ill effects.

  50. 50.

    singfoom

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Here you go: sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022113905002599

    and the search I used to find that: scholar.google.com/scholar?q=peer+reviewed+articles+effects+of+fluoride+in+drinking+water&hl=en…

    While there may be some controversy at the moment, the main part of peer reviewed science journals seem to accept that it is good for dental health and not damaging otherwise:

    A nice meta study: aaphd.org/docs/position%20papers/A%20Half-Century%20of%20Community%20Water1993.pdf

    The fact that some scientists come to different conclusions doesn’t change the accepted scientific line ATM.

  52. 52.

    Origuy

    There is nothing greater you could do for oral health than prohibit beverages containing phosphoric acid, such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola, etc.

    Can you imagine the scream if a liberal had said (not even proposed) that?

  55. 55.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @singfoom: Thanks.

    I’m in Texas, so I have heard all the theories from it being a government plot to crappy science. It’s one more of the fluoride guards against stupidity.

    @jwest: Personally, I have concluded that you are not allowed to call yourself liberal if you are not curious.

  56. 56.

    jwest

    This could be a case where “Follow the Money” should prevail.

    What possible reason would people have to oppose fluoridation if it has the benefits everyone seems to think and none of the drawbacks? If one county in Florida is spending over $200,000 per year on it, the total across the country must be astronomical. It would follow that the interests who make money on fluoridation would want to suppress any information on adverse effects of over-fluoridation on teeth/bones and infants.

    Of course, Big Fluoridation and the people in government who hope to have a job waiting for them at the corporation they were just regulating wouldn’t lie or minimize adverse information.

  57. 57.

    Wag

    Fluoridation if water was first described as a benefit naturally occurring in Colorado Springs, where the city water supply had high naturally occurring levels of fluoride.

    I find it ironic that for many years the hotbed of support for the John Birch Society and it’s anti-fluoridation propaganda was the home of naturally occurring fluoridation.

  60. 60.

    Martin

    ‘Fluoride gestapo’ has got to become a category for any beneficial act that is demonized as tyranny.

    Maybe we can start a movement decrying the government’s regulation against the use of asbestos and lead paint.

  62. 62.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @Roger Moore: Cool. Yep, Wikipedia is my second place to start on something well outside my normal zone of curiousity, beyond asking if someone else knows something.

  63. 63.

    Nemesis

    @different-church-lady: The string in my leg/gammy leg bit was improvised by the late great brilliant Peter Sellers.

    How about “you’re going to have to answer to the Coca Cola company for that.” and “Mr President, we can not allow a mine shaft gap!”

    Admission: Strangelove is my favorite film of all time.

  64. 64.

    Arm The Homeless

    BigFluoride? Really? So does that mean you’re also against BigImmunization, as well?

  65. 65.

    Brachiator

    The board voted 4-3 last week to stop the 7-year-old practice, despite warnings from dentists that fluoride in drinking water is safe and effective fighting cavities.

    Perhaps we need to re-introduce smallpox, measles and polio into red states. After all, immunization programs are government coercion to the Tea Party Crowd.

  66. 66.

    bookcat

    It’s not just the tea party. I live in Portland, OR and crazy ass left wing peeps out here are paranoid about this stuff. And immunizations. Just saying that people uneducated about this issue (and others) are not necessarily always conservative.

  67. 67.

    Ash Can

    OK, we have a troll nutpicking dentists and flogging a “Big Flouride” bogeyman, and someone insisting she’s not a teabagger saying “flouride isn’t safe!” without providing any basis whatsoever for her statement.

    Versus a hefty body of peer-reviewed scientific study.

    Gee, that’s a tough choice. It also makes me think of a couple of other situations — one involving health risks of tobacco and the other involving the climate.

  68. 68.

    jwest

    @Arm The Homeless:

    I’m conservative, so I like Big Everything. Had I known before this the amount of money involved with fluoridation, I would have been in that business too.

  71. 71.

    S. cerevisiae

    We better not tell them they put chlorine in the water too – after all that is much more toxic. Then they will have the freedom to die from cholera.

  72. 72.

    different-church-lady

    @Ash Can: All I can tell you is that when I was a kid we took fluoride pills and now my molars are all slowly rotting out of my head.

    Some day this war’s gonna end. (Nods, give small smile, walks away.)

  73. 73.

    Ash Can

    This whole thing would be somewhat humorous if there weren’t so many kids involved. As it is, I’m glad my elderly mother doesn’t still live down there.

  74. 74.

    jwest

    “The National Research Council reported that fluoride, even at levels used for fluoridation, can damage bones and teeth, disrupt thyroid function, be harmful to kidney patients and that studies linking fluoride to lowered IQ and cancer are plausible.”

    “It has electrolytes!”

  75. 75.

    Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937

    I have no idea how much it costs, but flouridating the entire water supply is a waste. You flush more water than you drink every day, your shower will be the same, and your clothes don’t need it either.

  76. 76.

    Countme In

    So, the upside of full breadth of Tea Party anti-regulatory policies is that when a John Bircher blows me with his or her toothless mouth, the experience will be heightened, while the downside is that the same c*cksuckers will be transmitting willy-nilly the human papillomavirus?

    Spare me the outrage; I have nothing against c*cksucking.

    Just a warning that the entire country should wear a body condom after 2012 to protect ourselves from Tea Party policies.

  78. 78.

    Mike in NC

    fears of big government and fluoride-related maladies

    Don’t most of the elderly teabaggers get free government dental care?

    When does Orly Taitz chime in? She was a part-time faux dentist when she wasn’t posing as a part-time faux lawyer, right?

  80. 80.

    Ash Can

    @Mike in NC: Considering how competent a lawyer she is, her dental practice likely involves an elaborate witch-doctor mask and several sets of pliers.

  81. 81.

    Chyron HR

    @jwest:

    What possible reason would people have to claim that Obama is an illegal alien if he’s actually an American citizen?

    Address his point, libs.

  82. 82.

    fasteddie9318

    I don’t have facts to back this up, but Barack Osamabama and the presidude of Ubekiturkimekischeckihammerflanstan built themselves a time machine and traveled back to the late 19th century so they could corrupt the research into the effect of fluoride on teeth. In this way they could both sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids as well as distract attention from the failed policies of the Saddam Okenyabama administration.

  83. 83.

    Rihilism

    @different-church-lady: Not sure why anyone would give fluoride pills (any idea how much fluoride these contained?) to a child, but it is well known that too much fluoride can be harmful. Likewise, a bit of chlorine to kill harmful microorganisms and prevent waterborne disease is helpful but too much is dangerous.

    @jwest: Link for that quote please.

    studies linking fluoride to lowered IQ and cancer are plausible

    Well, I guess that settles that…

    “It has electrolytes!”

    What on earth is that supposed to mean?…

  85. 85.

    Surly Duff

    @CynDee:

    Well, despite you inability to provide any links to evidence or provide an argument using facts, you have convinced me that water flouridation is not safe. Thanks. I will shoot any member of the “Flouride Gestapo” that makes me pursue dental health without my personal consent, especially when they use my tax dollars to do so. The tree of liberty must be refereshed from time to time with the blood of dentists and flouride proponents.

  86. 86.

    fasteddie9318

    I think it was “the tree of liberty must be remineralized from time to time with the fallen out decaying teeth of the courageous resisters of creeping dentofascism.”

  87. 87.

    Brachiator

    Some fun facts from an old Skeptoid blog post about anti-fluoridation wackiness:

    How else does the anti-fluoridation lobby go about spreading their misinformation? Generally they distribute an eight page pamphlet written by Dr. John Yiamouyiannis, the grandfather of anti-fluoridation activism. Dr. Yiamouyiannis was a naturopath who rejected modern medicine, and was the principal originator of the claim that fluoridation causes cancer. He raised his family with an emphasis on a fluoride-free diet to avoid cancer. And, as I’m sure you’ve guessed, Dr. Yiamouyiannis died of cancer in 2000, which he had refused to treat in accordance with his naturopathic philosophy. His type of cancer has a 95% 5-year survival rate, when properly treated.
    __
    Most other experts cited by activists are people like Dr. Hugo Theorell, who did indeed oppose fluoridation in the early days. What they don’t tell you is that Dr. Theorell changed his mind and became a supporter after the research was published.

    Ignorance marches on.

  89. 89.

    El Cid

    @Stillwater: I think I’d be too much in the ‘rapid escalation to “FUCK YOU”‘ category and brief bitter dismissal section. Not that I’d be alone, though.

  90. 90.

    different-church-lady

    @Rihilism:

    Not sure why anyone would give fluoride pills (any idea how much fluoride these contained?) to a child, but it is well known that too much fluoride can be harmful.

    I am no longer sure why anyone does anything at all.

    “It has electrolytes!”
    What on earth is that supposed to mean?…

    Indeed, “what is that supposed to mean?” is the entire point of that reference.

  91. 91.

    Citizen Alan

    Fluoride Gestapo. Fluoride. Gestapo. The Onion should just close up shop — they will never, ever come up with a fake article as ludicrous and over-the-top as some pig person oinking about the “fluoride gestapo.”

    As for fluoridation itself, I have reservations about it — not because I have any fears about fluoride but simply because I doubt enough people drink tap water in sufficient quantities to benefit from fluoridation, given its expense. I doubt I’ve drunk more than 12 ounces of water straight from a tap in the last year.

  93. 93.

    El Cid

    Also, since when do Bircher paranoids respect science enough to quote even ‘dissident’ scientists? Aren’t scientists inherently evil ivory tower anti-God monsters?

    I remember the good old days before evil big government of the 1920s starting lecturing good patriot Southerners on how they needed to let the gubmit help them install screen doors and window, since their clear demonstrations showed that flies would go directly from the outhouse shit lagoon to the dinner table given their doors and windows being open.

    It was all a one-world-gubmit plan to rob us of the extra nutrients that flies deposited on our food by recycling the nutrients escaping from our nourishing asses.

  94. 94.

    shano

    Name ONE DRUG , or vitamin or mineral for that matter, that is safe in uncontrolled doses that is not regulated by age, sex, current health or weight of subject ingesting the drug.

    Much better to just use the tooth powder from Uncle Harrys. Notice on flouride toothpaste it specifically WARNS people “DO NOT SWALLOW”.
    Wonder why that is?

    Just get the damn stuff out of our water systems. We do not need ti in any way shape or form whatsoever.

  95. 95.

    fasteddie9318

    Damn right, shano! And who is this fictitious “government” to tell me I need to drink TREATED water of any kind? If I want raw human shit in my water, where do these political fat cats in their ivory shit cleaners get off telling me I can’t have it! I’m with El Cid on this!

    WOLVERINES!@11!

  96. 96.

    shano

    “The National Research Council reported that fluoride, even at levels used for fluoridation, can damage bones and teeth, disrupt thyroid function, be harmful to kidney patients and that studies linking fluoride to lowered IQ and cancer are plausible.”

    I have a thyroid problem and I cannot touch fluoride at all.

    It is, after all, simply industrial waste that corporations are making huge profits from. It is another vestige of 20th Century ‘technology’ that should be abandoned.
    When doctors actually understand how body chemistry works they will see this as an enormous harm done to populations, like nuclear testing in the Nevada desert or cigarette smoking.

    No, not a teabagger. Not a bircher. Had to study nutrition to get my health back after being born a downwinder…..

  97. 97.

    Lee

    Fun Fact:

    Where I grew up (Midland, Texas) they have to LOWER the fluoride amount in the drinking water. I believe the amount is still high enough that it stains the the teeth of some kids.

  98. 98.

    shano

    There is a difference between treatment for clean & healthy water and ADDING substances to that water.

  100. 100.

    Roger Moore

    @jwest:

    “The National Research Council reported that fluoride, even at levels used for fluoridation, can damage bones and teeth, disrupt thyroid function, be harmful to kidney patients and that studies linking fluoride to lowered IQ and cancer are plausible.”

    That’s great, but anybody can claim there’s an NRC study somewhere that proves exactly what they want others to believe. If you want to convince me that there’s a problem, point me to the NRC study itself, not to a recycled quote from somebody claiming that there is such a study. In God We Trust; all others must provide evidence.

  101. 101.

    shano

    Dentists are still making a fortune off of ‘root canals’ that only increase eventual infection in the tooth & they are still putting permanent blobs of mercury inside peoples mouths. They still shill for the industrial waste fluoride corporations.

    If any medical science needs updating, it is Dentistry.

  103. 103.

    Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen

    @Citizen Alan: I think you’d find it’s a simple matter of economics. In areas where people can’t afford filters (either pitcher or installed) they’re drinking tap.

    There’s also the issue of taste. I used to sneer at people who had to run their water through a filter because I lived in a place where the tap water is great.

    Then I moved to a county where the water tastes and smells bad. Like, are you sure this is really water? bad. After about a month I broke down and brought a filter pitcher.

  104. 104.

    shano

    “The thyroid changes do worry me. There are some things there that need to be explored. What the committee found is that we’ve gone with the status quo regarding fluoride for many years—for too long, really—and now we need to take a fresh look. In the scientific community, people tend to think this is settled. I mean, when the U.S. surgeon general comes out and says this is one of the 10 greatest achievements of the 20th century, that’s a hard hurdle to get over. But when we looked at the studies that have been done, we found that many of these questions are unsettled and we have much less information than we should, considering how long this [fluoridation] has been going on. I think that’s why fluoridation is still being challenged so many years after it began. In the face of ignorance, controversy is rampant.”
    – Dr. John Doull , NRC Panel Chair

    “The difference between the levels of fluoride causing toxic effects and the levels added to water to prevent tooth decay is vanishingly small and deeply troubling.”
    – Dr. J. William Hirzy, Vice President, Environmental Protection Agency’s Headquarters Union, Washington DC.

    “l personally feel that the NRC report is relevant to many aspects of the water fluoridation debate… [T]he report discusses the wide range of drinking water intake among members of the population, which means that groups with different fluoride concentrations in their drinking water may still have overlapping distributions of individual fluoride exposure. ln other words, the range of individual fluoride exposures at 1 mg/L will overlap the range of individual exposures at 2 mg/L or even 4 mg/L. Thus, even without consideration of differences in individual susceptibility to various effects, the margin of safety between 1 and 4 mg/L is very low.”
    – Dr. Kathleen Thiessen, NRC Panel Member.

    “The crucial message of this report is that the highest scientific authority in the US has determined that low levels of fluoride in drinking water may have serious adverse health effects.”
    – Dr. Paul Connett, Executive Director, Fluoride Action Network.

    “In my opinion, the evidence that fluoridation is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming and policy makers who avoid thoroughly reviewing recent data before introducing new fluoridation schemes do so at risk of future litigation.”
    – Dr. Hardy Limeback, NRC Panel Member.

  105. 105.

    sublime33

    Why are we fighting the same fights that were apparently settled decades ago? Ten years ago I thought is was common knowledge and generally accepted that: the earth was 4 billion years old; dinosaurs died off millions of years ago; uncertainty was a given in the investment community; zygotes weren’t people; you didn’t have to be a land owner to vote; if the President of the US wanted to televise a message to all school children, parents weren’t frightened to the point where they kept their kids home from school; and the wealthy neighborhoods were considered wealthy neighborhoods and not “job creators” neighborhoods

    And now floridated water? What could possibly be next – demands for segregated water fountains? Women can’t vote?

  106. 106.

    Rihilism

    “The National Research Council reported that fluoride, even at levels used for fluoridation, can damage bones and teeth, disrupt thyroid function, be harmful to kidney patients and that studies linking fluoride to lowered IQ and cancer are plausible.”

    Can anyone provide a source for this quote?

    There is a difference between treatment for clean & healthy water and ADDING substances to that water.

    Surface water is treated by adding substances to coagulate/flocculate/precipitate turbidity. Municipal water providers add residual chlorine to finished water to reduce the risks of waterborne diseases…

  107. 107.

    shano

    Sublime33 “In my opinion, the evidence that fluoridation is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming and policy makers who avoid thoroughly reviewing recent data before introducing new fluoridation schemes do so at risk of future litigation.” – Dr. Hardy Limeback, NRC Panel Member.

    Rilism: yes, it was me. I will say too that the organic residues left over from chloridation-when Chloride interacts with organic matter- is also a problem for peoples health.

    I have a water well that I clean with the new, and much safer, hydrogen peroxide techniques because of the problems with Chloride interacting with organic matter and the residues they leave in drinking water.

    Everyone should be using a carbon filter pitcher if they have chloride in their water.

  108. 108.

    El Cid

    Concerns from US regulatory and scientific agencies and other institutions like the NAS center on excessive exposure to fluoride, given the likelihood of fluoride intake from other sources.

    5. Why is the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) developing new recommendations for community water fluoridation?
    __
    Sources of fluoride have increased since the early 1960s. At that time, drinking water and food and beverages prepared with fluoridated water accounted for nearly all of an individual’s fluoride intake. Today, water is just one of several sources of fluoride. Other sources include dental products such as toothpaste and mouth rinses, prescription fluoride supplements, and professionally applied fluoride products such as varnish and gels. Recognizing that it is now possible to receive enough fluoride with slightly lower levels of fluoride in water, the HHS set out to develop new recommendations for community water fluoridation.

    We all fucking know that fluorine is a dangerous poison and toxin, an astoundingly corrosive gas. It’s the most electron greedy element, and an oversaturated flourine compound (fluorspar) was classically used for containment. It’s a truly creepy, frightening substance.

    But then, also incredibly dangerous for ingestion is water, in excessive concentrations, and the number of people dying each year from drinking too much water too rapidly is far greater than anyone suggests for fluoride toxicity.

    A 2006 NRC study was about which level of fluoride concentration in public water should be adopted as the maximum by the EPA. In fact they were quite clear in setting out the terms of their study / review: it did not in any way challenge the constant findings of the safety in appropriate ingestion of fluoride — this focused entirely upon determining excessive and harmful levels.

    The Commission on Life Sciences which was tasked with an overall review of fluoride ingestion safety and risk (1993) found that most studies testing levels of ordinary exposure were quite equivocal, but that there were indeed some health effects. Small rises in the number of people with fluorosis-spotted tooth enamel, for example.

    Quoting the NRC as to imply that it has a consensus finding that ‘fluoride’ is harmful when ingested in what are considered safe levels is absolutely dishonest or ignorant or both.

    Reviews by Australian and UK commissions have come to the same conclusions.

    Follow the CDC’s links here for more info.

    This is how we get shit-brained assholes claiming that the tiny amounts of mercury which were present in vaccinations caused a variety of problems including autism.

  109. 109.

    shano

    Well, times change. Our exposure to industrial chemicals of all types has increased to the point where all of us have at least 36 industrial chemicals floating around in our bodies all the time.

    How these all interact with each other is not known. Better to reduce your exposure to the ones you can. How do you know you are getting ‘safe’ levels of fluoride anyway? Or chlorine residues for that matter…

  110. 110.

    El Cid

    @shano: Of course, there isn’t really any regulation enforced on the degree of fluorides and other industrial chemicals in bottled water, or present in natural springs.

    A home distillery is probably a better idea. Solar would be the more efficient.

    Also, really effective filtration of showers, since the absorption of toxins via the skin from showering may very well be greater than that from oral ingestion.

  111. 111.

    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik

    @sublime33:

    Why are we fighting the same fights that were apparently settled decades ago?

    Because apparently the Birchers get to win them this time. :/

  112. 112.

    Rihilism

    @shano: Those are some great quotes, but there seems to be a lot of “may” and “questions unsettled”. What were the epidemiological findings? Was the consensus “more study needed” or “OMG, we’re killing people!”? Did all members of this Panel agree with the most dire of these quotes?

    The reason I ask, is because there are a lot of people in this country that don’t have access to proper dental care who are at risk of developing illness and other health problems associated with poor dental hygiene. I’m more than willing to change my mind regarding the health effects of fluoride ingested via the water supply, but I’d rather not base major changes to public health policy on “maybe” “questions are unsettled” or “further inquiry is advised”. For example, there are risks associated with immunization (in my opinion, minimal), but I don’t believe that we should halt immunization based on fear or uncertainty given the obvious societal benefit we accrue from an immunized population….

  113. 113.

    Ash Can

    @El Cid:

    A home distillery is probably a better idea.

    Methinks a few people in this thread embraced that idea some time ago (even if those “home distilleries” are just their automobile radiators).

  115. 115.

    Rihilism

    @shano: Yes, when chlorine reacts with organic compounds it can produce some nasty stuff. It’s why the type of chlorine used was changed to minimize the formation of such substances. But the reason it is still used in municipal water supplies is that other disinfectants, such as hydrogen peroxide and UV, offer no residual protection in water distribution systems, and the benefits of maintaining a water supply mostly free of pathogenic organisms outweighs the health risks associated with chlorine byproducts.

    Not everyone can afford their own disinfection/filtration systems.

    @El Cid: Thank you for the additional information and clarification…

  116. 116.

    jonno

    The purpose and importance of fluoride was not apparent to me until I moved up to Oregon (no fluoridation) from California (fluoridation) and got a new dentist. He took one look at my (apparently very healthy) teeth and said “You’re from California, aren’t you?”

    Then he went on a minor rant about the Oregon JBirchers. He’s a good guy.

  118. 118.

    Roger Moore

    @Rihilism:

    Can anyone provide a source for this quote?

    They may be able to find a source for that quote, but it’s still bullshit. Having now checked the report, it looks as if the NRC was looking at the permissible limits for naturally occurring fluoride in drinking water that were well in excess of the level used in fluoridation. Specifically, the old EPA guideline was a Maximum Contaminant Level of 4 mg/L, while the study decided that a level of 2 mg/L was more appropriate to avoid risk. Meanwhile the actual level used for fluoridation is 0.7-1.2 mg/L. IOW, the level we’re putting into drinking water deliberately is well below the level deemed by the study to be safe. Anybody who’s using that study to say fluoridation is dangerous is lying.

  119. 119.

    Quizboy

    The majority — Commissioners Nancy Bostock, Neil Brickfield, John Morroni and Norm Roche — sided with fears of big government and fluoride-related maladies.

    Looks like the powerful Dan Halen Sheetrock lobbyists win this round.

  120. 120.

    different-church-lady

    @Ash Can:

    Methinks a few people in this thread embraced that idea some time ago…

    Who are you lookin’ at, punk?

  121. 121.

    different-church-lady

    @shano:

    they are still putting permanent blobs of mercury inside peoples mouths.

    Fuck all! If only they WERE permanent! My blobs are crumbling away in the most disconcerting manner possible at the moment.

  122. 122.

    Rihilism

    @Roger Moore: Yes, it seems a bit hyperbolic to me, especially since there was no link to confirm the veracity of the speaker and the claims of “plausible” cancer and lowered IQ’s studies seems to have been added as a scare tactic.

    Thank you, as well, for the additional info…

  123. 123.

    Roger Moore

    @Rihilism:

    and the claims of “plausible” cancer and lowered IQ’s studies seems to have been added as a scare tactic.

    The study does mention possible cancer and retardation risk, but it’s in the 2-4 mg/L range that they’re suggesting we remove from permissible exposure, not in the 0.7-1.2 mg/L level that’s used for deliberate fluoridation for dental hygiene. I don’t know if the people spreading this stuff are honest but don’t know how to read the report or dishonest and hoping to fool people (or possibly a mix of both), but either way they’re misrepresenting the NRC’s findings.

  124. 124.

    les

    @jwest:
    uh: a process that in the U.S. costs an average of about $0.95 per person-year

    You’re the perfect proof of Einstein’s observation: The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.

  125. 125.

    les

    @jwest:

    “The National Research Council reported that fluoride, even at levels used for fluoridation, can damage bones and teeth, disrupt thyroid function, be harmful to kidney patients and that studies linking fluoride to lowered IQ and cancer are plausible.”

    Can we find the part that’s a lie? Why, yes we can; it’s “even at levels used for fluoridation”.

    The actual, you know, National Acadamies says of the report:

    March 22 — Children exposed to drinking water containing 4 milligrams of fluoride per liter — the Environmental Protection Agency’s maximum allowable concentration — risk developing severe tooth enamel fluorosis, says a new National Research Council report. About 200,000 Americans have drinking water with that much fluoride, which comes from both naturally occurring sources and pollution. A majority of the committee that wrote the report also said that people who consume water containing that much fluoride over a lifetime are likely at increased risk for bone fractures. The report does not examine artificially fluoridated water, which contains much less fluoride.

    Italics mine.

  126. 126.

    les

    @shano:
    Shano, the only thing stupider than jwest’s lies and illogic is uncritically repeating them. Sorry for your condition, but jebus…you do your position no good citing that idiot.

  130. 130.

    les

    @Ash Can:
    hard to be sure, Mr. Can. While jwest appears to be terminally dishonest and illogical, it’s possible that he simply accepted bullshit from an outfit called flouridealert.org, rather than created this lie personally. After all, the site doesn’t announce that it’s a clearinghouse for conspiracy nutjobs.

  131. 131.

    Don

    Not only are they going to have all those kids end up with bad teeth but they’re coming after your chocolate too.

    There’s a lot of lobbying going on against the EPA by these same clowns at the fluoride action network, all in the name of stopping people from getting some minor spots on their teeth – the only downside that actually happens in this tiny minority of folks who get too much fluoride exposure, and then only when they’re in areas where a combination of added AND naturally occurring fluoride occurs.

    Mind you, the thing they’re going after here is sulfuryl fluoride, which was phased in so we could stop using methyl bromide, which has a proven ozone depleting property. And removing this from use puts us even further at risk from stuff that a lot of people think we’ve ignored the very real risks of while obsession about bombs.

    I don’t really understand what the hell is going to happen if something doesn’t change from the Jan choice by the EPA on this. They’re putting us at risk from invasive species over 3% of typical people’s exposure AND the over-exposure is primarily a cosmetic concern. It ranks, to me, with those loons you used to sometimes meet who didn’t want to wear their seatbelt because it would wrinkle their clothes.

    (disclosure: my wife works for a trade organization pushing back on this nonsense, but I’d be on this side regardless since my belief in quality teeth is a lot stronger than any nutcase OMG BLACKHELICOPTERS tendencies that I’m aware of)

  132. 132.

    shano

    I am not rich, as an adult, I have always had a well and my own water systems. Its part of my working life.
    Why should everyone get the same dose of fluoride, regardless? We are just Guinea Pigs for industry here in the US. Fluoride is readily available in any drug store in all corporate toothpastes.

    I personally do not use fluoride. I use oil of wild oregano to kill germs in my mouth and I use a product from Uncle Harry that contains ionic minerals of calcium, magnesium and phosphorus to protect my tooth enamel instead of fluoride. I really recommend his tooth powder, especially if your are suffering from periodontal disease.
    Maybe I am unlucky, but every single dental problem I have had was caused by a Dentist.

    And yes, you can absorb these all things through your skin when you take a shower. It is true. Another reason to get fluoride out of municipal water systems. What is your dose if you are not only drinking it but bathing in it too? How do you know you or your child are not getting too much?

    All I am saying is this: filter your drinking water. Even though I use state of the art technology to clean my well, I still have copper pipes. I do not want to ingest excess copper either. So, even I use a carbon filter for my drinking water.

  134. 134.

    Djur

    @jonno: Portland Public Schools does have a fluoride program. It’s opt-out, but I don’t know anyone who did. I don’t know if this is a fairly recent program or what — all I know is that I got to chew fluoride tablets regularly as an elementary school kid.

    And my teeth are in perfect shape. No cavities. I’d vote to fluoridate our water if I could, though.

  136. 136.

    AA+ Bonds

    @shano:

    HAHAHAHAH this is my favorite post, I hope the Sharper Image Ionic Breeze saves you from the conspiracy of Dentists against your teeth

  137. 137.

    wenchacha

    I grew up with well water, as did my three siblings. First two kids were breastfed and had no fluoride supplement. I was number 3, and received fluoride drops as an infant, along with breast milk.

    Fifty-some years later, I have a total of four fillings. My older sister has many fillings and crowns. We grew up in a rural setting, so we didn’t have ready access to penny candy or soda pop, and have both had similar diets throughout life. Both of us good about brushing teeth.

    The craziest thing is that I skipped a trip to the dentist for about 32 years. I finally returned to the dreaded chair a year ago because a very old filling was crumbling. The dentist fixed it up, the pain was non-existent, and now I go every six months for a checkup. I suppose one could argue that ignoring dental care over the years was good for my teeth.

    At any rate, my sister and I figure the fluoride drops did the trick for me. Hardly a scientific conclusion, truly! I think of the great fluoride scares as something you could read about in some 50s-60s Readers’ Digest.

  138. 138.

    shano

    Getting the Fluoride drops occasionally and drinking it and bathing in it every day are two different dosages.
    Your well water probably had some good minerals in it if you avoided the dentist for 32 years.
    But prevention is the best cure, so I use Uncle Harrys products to prevent common dental infections.

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