The Post has a long piece detailing how we’re in for a long haul with COVID-19. This stood out:
One hospital in New York tested every pregnant woman who came in to deliver and found 15 percent had the coronavirus. Most of those testing positive — 88 percent — showed no symptoms, a sign of how crucial such testing could be.
Josh Marshall pointed out this lit review in Science, which concluded that the sum of evidence points towards mask wearing as a reasonable public health step. Cuomo just signed an executive order giving businesses the authority to kick out customers who don’t wear a mask. The clear, obvious conclusion, based on facts as we know them, is that reopening won’t work without widespread wearing of masks.
Even so, all of my red state relatives tell me that very little mask wearing is going on — one of them was the only person wearing a mask in a Home Depot last night. It’s enough to make the governor of North Dakota cry. This article details the fight with COVID-iots at different healthcare facilities in FOXland. Sample:
Confusion about when and where masks should be worn is also playing out in other high-risk places that provide medical care, like nursing homes. Sue Krohn-Taylor is an administrator at a 72-apartment low-income senior living facility in the large town of Grand Island, Nebraska, where a resident has tested positive for Covid-19. She says she’s been battling some residents who refuse to wear masks, and is exhausted.
“This week, the son of one of the residents told me I was taking away their liberties by making them wear a mask in the common areas,” she says. “If they were only harming themselves, I would back off, but they are placing each and every resident here, and my staff, and our families in harm’s way.”
“I can fight the virus, but fighting the lies is what becomes overwhelming,” she says.
What’s interesting to me is that this is one case where the politics of mask wearing is getting away from Trump. Mitch McConnell broke with him on it today. He’s lost Sean Hannity, too. Only the Trumpiest Trumpers are going to stick with him, but that will probably be enough to spark a good number of outbreaks.
rp
Someone linked to a Matt Welch tweet the other day, so I looked at a few on his timeline. I thought he was a semi reasonable libertarian type, but he appears to have gone all in on “Dems are just trying to scare you!,” “wearing a mask makes you a sheep!,” etc. The amount of craziness in this country is hard to take.
Dorothy A. Winsor
My SIL and her husband usually spend the winter in Florida and the summer in Rhode Island. They delayed going back this year until last week, when they drove up. On the family Zoom call, they reported that as they drove north, the percentage of people wearing masks rose. They estimated that at first it was as low as 20% and by the time they got home it was 95%.
dmsilev
I’d have sworn that was unpossible. Truly, we live in strange times.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Rhode Island was pretty hard hit. Some people only learn through experience, by knowing people who have been affected. As time rolls on, the folks who are so cavalier now will start being impacted, maybe not directly, but through their networks of friends and family.
raven
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I just came from Harbor Freight (the jack stands I used for my truck bed install were recalled because they COLLPASE!) and Home Depot (where they have a machine you are supposed to be able to use to buy an LP tank but it doesn’t work so I had to go inside) and I’d say it was 50-50 on masks including staff. That’s probably high for Georgia.
Snarki, child of Loki
F’ckin’ MAGAt virus-bait should hurry up and thin themselves from the herd.
Via injecting Chlorox&Lysol, KarmaVirus, or sucking on a bullet.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
The virus is finally taking off in places where Republicans live. That is the only reason they are starting to care.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
It’s sad that’s what it takes to get through to some people.
Speaking of most infections being asymptomatic, who wants to bet if Trump was infected, he probably didn’t have any symptoms? Why does karma never seem to hit this asshole?
dlwchico
Going to the car dealership to pick up my car (after having some stuff done to it) was the most interaction I’ve had with people outside my immediate family for the past few months.
They had tape marking off ‘safe areas’ on the floor in the service area but nobody was paying any attention to them.
Besides myself no other customers (I think I saw 3) wore masks.
Two of the employees wore masks but I think I saw half a dozen more that were not.
Mandalay
Not really; he is astutely hedging his bets.
Hannity will be able to point to clips of Trump offering support for mask wearing if he faces any heat, and if the number of new cases starts to soar he can legitimately brag “I warned you people about this!“. It’s a crafty move by him.
MattF
McArdle has a confused and confusing column about how refusing to wear a face mask actually violates conservative and libertarian principles. And that Trumpism is neither.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Snarki, child of Loki: I’m not OK with wishing these people die. That’s not cool.
beth
I’m seeing fewer people wearing masks here in Charleston but what really annoys me is employees at large chain stores not wearing them. I’ve been to Target and WalMart last weekend and I’d say half the employees weren’t masked. I won’t be going back anytime soon. I don’t see how you convince customers to wear masks when your employees aren’t.
MattF
@dmsilev: I think Hannity is just placating his core demographic.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Being immune to horrible illnesses was probably part of the contract when he sold his soul.
Baud
I’ve been hearing anecdotally that young African Americans (or perhaps just the men) are also disproportionately not wearing masks. If true, that’s obviously not because of Cleek’s Law politics. I’d be curious to see an analysis of who’s not wearing masks and why.
Anywho, masks are the future since we’re opening up and Trump is never going to do anything useful.
LongHairedWeirdo
You know, once in a while, I just want to point out that there is a huge, huge, huge, right-wing program in place to tell people to despise and distrust their family, friends, and neighbors, based upon pathetic lies that fall apart upon examination.
I swear… I mean, someone mentioned the plot of the next James Bond movie could be Blofeld trying to get America to wear masks. You know what it would make a better plot to? A Batman movie – and I *do* mean Adam West and Burt Ward, BAM, POW, KA-ZOWIE! effects and all. It’s so indescribably stupid.
I mean, climate change denial, because “LIEberals and DEMONcRATS want to control your life is already pathetically stupid. Trillions of dollars of wealth are at stake, and it affects *everyone* – but a few million dollars in government grants caused climate scientists to all try to fool the entire planet? Seriously? I mean, it’s stupid even *before* you think of how many scientists (too many) would *LOVE* to dance on the grave of your pet hypothesis if they catch you in an error. (Others would at least tell you they’re sorry, it sucks, it was a good idea… but possibly just before turning on the dance music. )
charon
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Hannity works for Rupert Murdoch. Murdoch and McConnell may realize it’s time to cut Trump loose. Rats starting to leave the ship
Martin Longman has a column about this over at Washington Monthly/Progress Pond.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Baud: You didn’t mention that you understood why black men are worried about masks – I hope it doesn’t have to be said that concealing one’s identity, as a black man, will be seen by too many people as threatening. Not everyone will see it as being *as* threatening as asking someone to leash their dog, but it only takes one panicked idiot to cause problems.
Thrasius
Upstate South Carolina has plenty of people wearing masks. At the grocery store, it’s easier to count the people not wearing them, same with the hardware stores except for the people actually in the construction industry. Haven’t really been anywhere else though.
MisterForkbeard
@Mandalay: Right. I don’t think Hannity is criticizing TRUMP, either. He’s just giving some milquetoast criticisms of people who are acting out badly.
He can continue to pimp Trump’s misadministration in the meantime and say liberals are overreacting and just trying to scare people
@Baud: Anecdotally, some of my Latinx and AA friends tell me they’re worried about wearing masks because it scares the shit out of white people and they’re afraid they’ll be attacked or have the cops called on them. Insane that we’re in this situation.
Kent
What is absolutely enraging to me is that masks should be available everywhere and I’m astonished that 3 months into this pandemic they are not.
Where do I go to buy a couple of dozen disposable masks here in Vancouver WA? Or re-usable cloth ones. I have not once seen masks for sale at any local store since this pandemic started.
I finally went on Amazon and bought a 3-pack of cloth masks for $10 and had to sort through a bunch of low rated amazon storefront outlets and just roll the dice. Took 3 weeks to arrive. I didn’t see any options actually sold direct by Amazon itself which is astonishing that the largest retailer on the planet doesn’t have masks. Yes you can buy them ON Amazon…and maybe they will eventually arrive. But you can’t buy them FROM Amazon. That just astonishes me.
It shouldn’t be this fucking hard to buy masks. They should be arriving to every damn Wal-Mart, Costco, and grocery store and pharmacy by the pallet-load. They should be free every time you walk into a store or restaurant just like the straw and napkin dispensers at McDonalds.
We are really living in a failed state
Oh, and here in the Portland area within the stores I shop at it looks like mask use is about 90%. It is high enough that you are startled when you run into shoppers not wearing them. but it is mostly all manner of homemade shit and bandanas and who knows what. Half of them might not even be legit masks.
Eunicecycle
In the part of NE Ohio where I live it’s probably about 75% wearing masks. I haven’t been in too many stores but the ones I have been almost all employees are wearing them.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Kent: Etsy is your best bet. Just make sure that the person selling the masks is in the US, or it will take forever for them to arrive. I ordered some from a couple of craftspeople on Etsy and had some really cute masks delivered in a week. Also, be sure to check on how long they estimate it will take them to ship orders.
catclub
was it here that someone pointed out that the deaths in Florida from ‘pneumonia’ this year are five times normal.
Humdog
@Kent: I can sew you some masks and mail them. Not a national solution, I know, but I can help some people.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
‘Sorry, no mask allowed’: Some businesses pledge to keep out customers who cover their faces
I can’t fucking even
Matt McIrvin
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: In the opening weeks of the pandemic, I was seeing people all over Twitter saying they had COVID or were experiencing symptoms. Celebrities were getting it. Coastal urban people, mostly.
Then it died down. The numbers kept going up. But it seemed to be confined mostly to people who didn’t have a public or online presence–people who weren’t in a position to protect themselves. Slaughterhouse employees, prisoners, nursing-home patients. The people you did see getting infected were mostly medical workers.
Now… I’m seeing the online footprint again. Only it’s not Twitter, it’s friends-of-friends on Facebook. That’s the pandemic spreading to the red states.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@LongHairedWeirdo: apparently just jogging and sleeping are up there with eating skittles in things White folks find dangerous with black men these days.
dexwood
I’ve just returned from a grocery run where most of the shoppers were sporting masks, including those in their twenties and thirties. The six I counted who were not wearing masks were all old white guys, men in their sixties and seventies. Freedumb gonna kill us all.
Humdog
My husband truly had a grown man whine to him “ the president doesn’t have to wear one” when hubby pointed to the sign on the biz that said masks must be worn. In California. Most in his industry, auto repair and refinishing, do not wear them even tho they are required by the county.
When did grown white dudes stop maturing past tween mentality? Why do so many Americans see “Jackass” as a goal instead of a cautionary tale?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): eh, anyone who frequents a hole in the wall bar is a loser anyway. The lack of masks in public is useful to know who’s the plague rats.
Stacib
@Baud: I live on the Southside of Chicago. I am pleasantly surprised at the number of young, black men who are masked. I would put it over 85%.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Looks like some olds are accepting TX LTG’s proposal.
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: I can only speak for myself, but from what I see in my neighbor, people are taking care of business.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
There’s a fine line between “charming and roguish” and “Jackass.” Add to that the fact that we have a political party committed to the proposition that once they have taken a nice long country drive past the line that they are, in fact, on the right side of the line and how dare you suggest otherwise?
And there you go.
burnspbesq
@Baud:
That’s an easy one. Takes away one potential excuse for cops to use deadly force.
HumboldtBlue
Two Fort Smith churches suspend services after attendance by person with COVID-19
different-church-lady
Godddamit, if wearing a mask for the next year is the biggest sacrifice I gotta make, then I’m PUTTING THAT SHIT IN THE WIN COLUMN.
It is just un-fucking-believable that this one TINY LITTLE COMMON SENSE decision has become a front of identity politics. We are being ruled by trolls.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Wait, since when do they need and excuse. In too many places they are simply assumed to be excused from the word go due to their status as officers of the law.
rikyrah
@Mandalay:
They have lawsuits.
Discovery will be amazing
Kent
Thanks. I know I can find them. I’m just saying it shouldn’t be this ad-hoc or damn hard to do. In Korea the government ships masks to every pharmacy in the country by the millions. In Turkey they mail masks free to every family in the country. Here? We gotta dink around on etsy and hope we aren’t being scammed. Sheeh.
Mandalay
@MattF:
Excellent point. The average age of a FoxNews viewer is 65, and support for wearing a mask in public increases with age.
Hannity is very carefully sucking up to his base by asking his viewers to “please wear your mask … for your grandma, your grandpa“.
Trump isn’t the exception; Hannity will happily brownnose and pander to anyone if it serves his own interest.
Baud
@LongHairedWeirdo: @MisterForkbeard:
I had not heard of that as a cause. Truly awful.
@Stacib: @The Thin Black Duke:
Thanks. I’d imagine that there is a lot of variation by geography, just like with other demos. I don’t know if anyone has compiled the data. As mask wearing becomes politically polarized, I just think it’s important not to forget that there also may be other factors at play with other groups of people (including basic awareness).
dexwood
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Well, I wish they would remain in Texas instead of crossing the state border.
“Poor New Mexico! So far from heaven and so close to Texas.”
Manuel Armijo (c. 1793 – 1853), a New Mexican soldier and statesman who served three times as governor of New Mexico.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
The House pulled the FISA bill after Trump threatened to veto it
MisterForkbeard
@catclub: Yes it was. Pneumonia deaths were at 5,200 but are normally at around 800. COVID deaths were only 1,700.
Basically, they’re undercounting COVID deaths by a factor of 3.5x.
artem1s
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I can’t believe he would pass up a chance to crow about how manly, brave and strong he is – perfect health, best ever! And that it is no big deal to get it – no symptoms at all! Some people just get sick and die! I like people who don’t get sick! If everyone just injected bleach, like I told them to everyday!
so no, I doubt he has had it. Or he’s been lying all along about getting tested weekly and everyday and/or his staff is lying to him about the results. But no way would he be able to keep it to himself if he knew he came out of it with no symptoms.
Glidwrith
Has anyone considered the idea that not wearing a mask is like blowing second hand smoke in people’s faces? We already have all kinds of regulations saying no smoking indoors because of the hazards. Why not apply the same reasoning/laws to mask-wearing?
MisterForkbeard
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): You notice the complete lack of concern about spreading it to other people? Yeah. Sociopath.
Slappy Kincaid
Here in Raleigh it is probably about 60% masked. I bet if you get outside Raleigh, where it gets rural fast, that percentage goes way down.
You may have seen the photos from a NASCAR event in Winston Salem on Saturday that had a couple thousand people shoulder-to-shoulder in the bleachers all unmasked. I think outside of the major metros in NC, it turns into Alabama.
Lymie
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jep.13415
Good discussion about why experts seem to disagree about the effectiveness of mask wearing. The bottom line is that cloth masks for civilians cut down the source of infection while the masks health care providers wear are to protect them from outside infection. If 60% of people wore masks 60% of the time the Covid R0 would drop below 1.
Delk
Just came from out-patient procedure. Had to wear mask and gloves. Sign on outside door saying only six people allowed in lobby. Once in the lobby a women completely covered, masked, gloved, and face shielded took my temperature. On the elevator another masked and shielded woman sat by the door and punched in the numbers. Office had chairs turned over and two in front of the receptionist.
Super glad today is over, just popped an oxy, and I’m in relax mode (until Monday when I have to go back).
Achrachno
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Wishing is a lot like praying — it doesn’t actually do anything in the physical world. No one is going to die because someone wishes they would. For them to die would require concrete action by someone or something. A person taking that action would be immoral (in most cases) and so should be strongly opposed (again, in most cases). But just wishing … who cares? One can wish for a ham sandwich and that Trump would croak, but after doing so you’ll still be hungry and governed by idiots.
Elizabelle
Have to catch up with your comments, but I really think starting a culture war over wearing masks, in a pandemic, is going to backfire, bigly, on the Republicans, glibertarians, Confederates, conservatives, and stupid.
It is so damn selfish and childish.
Science is science. Once they discredit themselves with that, maybe more of their canon will come under closer scrutiny.
We have to work hard to ensure a full and fair vote this November, and I think the conventional wisdom media is going to be astounded at the Republican detritus that is swept away.
MisterForkbeard
@Glidwrith: Don’t you understand that common sense is a huge attack on our freedoms!
MisterForkbeard
@Elizabelle:
I’d like to introduce you to the Republican Party.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Slappy Kincaid:
I’m pretty sure that was a local event and not a NASCAR event. NASCAR has been pretty much on board with social distancing and mask wearing. No spectators in the crowds
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Delk:
Sounds like they were really careful. Good. Take a nap.
burnspbesq
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Elgin’s not too far from here. You don’t have togo very far from Austin to be back in Texas.
County and municipal governments in the Austin metro area cracked down hard, starting with the cancellation of SxSW. The result has been relatively low case and fatality counts per capita. So we’re now dealing with Paradox 1 of epidemiology: when you do the right thing, and it works, then in hindsight it looks like you over-reacted. And the average Texan, being poorly educated and/or downright stupid, and in thrall to a toxic mythology, either fails or chooses not to understand.
louc
Johnny Cash’s granddaughter was castigated by some jerk in a Nashville grocery story for wearing a mask, according to her mother, the great Roseanne Cash. She had had H1N1, which makes coronavirus that much more dangerous to her.
I mean, really, WTH?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@MisterForkbeard:
That stuck out to me too. It could be ignorance, being charitable. That guy with cancer seemed like one. It would be fine if it was just himself at risk; I can understand if he’s content with his life and is ready to die, if it happens. But it’s not just his life at risk
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Come to think of it, why hasn’t he done this anyway? When has he let a little thing like “the facts” get in the way of his shameless self-aggrandizement?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@artem1s:
That’s a good point
prostratedragon
@Baud:
Haven’t travelled much around town lately, but most of the younger hip-looking AA men in my neighborhood are wearing masks, also the ones who bring me things. Of course in Chicago here we have enough incidence that no one’s likely to think they’re immune.
rikyrah
@Kent:
I don’t do disposable masks.
I have washables masks
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Yeah. It’s just infuriating to read about. Literally trolling libs is what this is. If some clown told me to take off my mask or leave, I’d tell them to fuck off. If they got physical, I’d lay them out flat. If they called the police, treating it as a “robbery in progress”, I’d say “go right ahead”.
rikyrah
@catclub:
all the while, they refuse to give out the data of the deaths in nursing homes.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@dmsilev: From the TPM link:
I thought it was pretty well established empirically that the causal relationship is the other way around. What Hannity says in the evening comes out of Trump’s… whatever… the next morning in the tweets.
rikyrah
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): would never step into a business with this bullshyt policy
LuciaMia
Just finished a cartoon on that same subject. Lets hope its finally starting to get thru some thick skulls…
dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/28/1948282/-Masks-We-don-t-need-no-stinkin-masks?utm_campaign=recent
zhena gogolia
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
I ordered from Etsy and I got a message several days ago that they had been shipped. Nothing yet. It’s been about 3 weeks since I ordered them.
Elizabelle
@MisterForkbeard: You know that; I know that.
Got to rip away the plausible deniability for their media and cultural enablers.
FWIW, how “conservatives” are trying to whitewash [sic; bad pun] the Amy Cooper Central Park dogwalking episode — calling it Covington 2.0 — is going to drive more voters to Democrats this fall.
They can see how ignoring behavior like that leads to behavior that literally got George Floyd killed.
Thank dog for cellphones.
As rikyrah says, keep receipts.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kent: The quickest way I’ve seen to get a mask is to buy from one of the guys hawking them in the Costco parking lot.
You’re right, failed state indeed.
WaterGirl
@Glidwrith: Who was president and who had the majority in the house and senate when the second-hand smoke regulations were passed?
I don’t have the answer to that question, but I would be surprised if that doesn’t pretty much control what is possible and what isn’t.
I imagine that would have a lot to do with it.
Gin & Tonic
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Rhode Island was not just hard-hit, it’s a pretty “small” place – in the sense that you’re seldom more than 2-3 degrees of separation. Chances are very good you know somebody who’s gotten the rona, or certainly know somebody who knows somebody.
I’ve been out and about in grocery stores, Home Depot, that sort of thing, more or less all along, and I really *very* seldom see someone without a mask.
WaterGirl
@Delk: Glad you have that behind you! Or at least part one. Hoping Monday is just a followup visit.
rikyrah
@charon:
they have lawsuits against them.
Discovery should be very interesting
Kent
Same here. That’s not my point. I’m just saying there should be cheap disposable masks provided in every public place. Just like disposable napkins, grocery bags, and toilet paper. A real American government would have made sure of that months ago.
Barbara
@louc: I remember the iconic Playboy cartoon in which an overbearing macho guy is leering at a much younger skinny long hair saying something to the effect of, “This is America where we are free to do what we want and that means I am free to beat you up for having long hair.”
“This is America, where we are free to do what we want and that means I am free to threaten you for choosing to wear a mask.”
Irony isn’t their strong suit and I don’t expect them to get it, ever, but boy, am I reconsidering my plans to drive across the country this summer (which might not have been feasible anyway).
VOR
Recent Esquire article on where to buy masks.
esquire.com/style/mens-accessories/g32055757/where-to-buy-cloth-face-masks-coronavirus/
I bought mine after reading an article in Vogue on upscale masks back in March. I also was frustrated at not being able to find reliable sources either in-person or online.
I’m amazed companies, like sports teams, aren’t handing out masks branded with their logos. I am seeing them treated as fashion accessories, coordinated with the rest of the outfit. Like a pocket square with a tie, perhaps.
Gin & Tonic
@Kent:
Just got off the phone with my son in Kyiv. Every store he’s been to has a vending machine outside where you can buy a disposable mask for pennies, and a more-permanent one for under a buck.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Elizabelle:
I will never forget how that Native American man that snot-nosed Nick Sandman brat got in the face of was vilified so goddamned quick. A few irrelevant inconsistencies in his background was all it took
Betty Cracker
in my Trumpster-infested town, mask wearing has declined precipitously since Orangemandias declared it a sign of cuckdom. But older folks — even the Trumpsters — seem to be taking the danger seriously. Not all of them, of course, but I’ve definitely noticed an age pattern during grocery runs.
Ksmiami
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Why? When they so flagrantly go against reasonable social regulations to keep us all safer. Trumpers are a menace to us all and I will not be sorry if their actions reduce their numbers
satby
@rikyrah: and OMIGOD, the ones in the mail today are cute!
I’m officially jealous ?
Barbara
@VOR: My dry cleaning shop has been handing out masks. The owner makes them in her suddenly copious down time. I have been getting as many things cleaned as I can think of. I ordered some from the LA Clothing company. Most of the designer sources sold out a while ago.
LuciaMia
@Delk: Yay!
Bill Arnold
She is too fucking polite. Anti-maskers are literally claiming a personal right to kill random people in close physical proximity. This right is not in the US Constitution.
Barbara
@Bill Arnold: I feel like wearing an itsy bitsy bikini into their next church service. Why not? It’s my “right” to dress however I want wherever I want. These people are morons.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Betty Cracker:
I’ve run into precisely one person not wearing a mask in a public place, an older woman. Since she was at a restaurant seeking help in getting a meal from other patrons, I’m not going to fault her on this.
A couple days ago, though, outside a convenience store my maskless, shirtless buddy was giving me money to go in and make his purchases. The owner saw this and encouraged my friend to come in without a mask despite a town ordinance requiring them in all businesses. Mind you my friend had a mask and didn’t want to put his shirt back on to go inside to then take it back off.
Bill Arnold
Re that Sciencemag piece,
Perspective: Reducing transmission of SARS-CoV-2 (Kimberly A. Prather, Chia C. Wang, Robert T. Schooley, Science 27 May 2020)
Here’s a summary:
Nice short abstract:
TL;DR – this image: science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/early/2020/05/27/science.abc6197/F1.large.jpg
Only want to read a few sentences:
Jeffro
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:The virus is finally taking off in places where Republicans live. That is the only reason they are starting to care.
Yes. McConnell and Hannity have at least a foot (ok, in Hannity’s case, a toe) planted in reality, and they can surely sense what is coming.
As the quickly-reopening, carefree red states start to overflow their ERs and ICUs, Mr. “REOPEN NOW!” and his dumb-ass remarks about not needing to wear a mask should make for great campaign ads. Not that there’s any shortage of material for those at this point.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
As IANAL I feel compelled to ask, is this what one might call voluntary manslaughter?
Krope, the Formerly Dope
I wonder whether McConnell’s single foot planted in reality is there in an effort to push it away or is he trying to curb-stomp it to death?
Elizabelle
@louc: Kurt Eichenwald’s tweet response is perfect.
We should do that. It’s the masks equivalent of Christian Cooper (birdwatcher — there goes an oriole!) and his dog treats to get the more stubborn of the dogwalkers to leash their pets.
Jeffro
Same thing with testing. If we had a boatload of masks and testing out the wazoo, going back to school this fall (whether K-12 or higher ed) wouldn’t be so problematic. And kids going back to school would help parents go back to work. Hell, I’ve been working from home and it would make me a lot more productive, and my kids are mostly grown up! I can’t imagine if my kids were 7 and 11, or 2 and 6.
Just remember, America: we could have been New Zealand if we had strong, coherent leadership that followed the science instead of lazy, chaotic, self-interested “leadership” that would rather just divide and conquer.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
I’ve read a number of black men saying that wearing a mask in public puts a target on their back. They see the risk of wearing a mask (being shot for looking like a criminal) as worse than the risk of not wearing one (getting sick). I think they’re weighing the risks wrong, but I can understand they face risks white people don’t.
syphonblue
Hannity and McConnell just became RINOs.
When will these people understand they unleashed a monster in the Cult of Trump. There’s no putting that genie back in the bottle. You cannot talk against The Trump without backlash.
Peale
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): yep. Stay home if you’re feeling asymptomatic. Which is what I mostly have been doing.
Raven Onthill
Costco is doing a pretty good job of this, at least in my area: they require customers to wear masks, mask all their employees, and have shields at checkout. The broad aisles of a warehouse store make distancing easy.
I hope they do not see violence in response to their policies.
JoyceH
Just back from grocery shopping in my ruby red area of Virginia, and almost everyone was masked. All store employees were. The few I saw that weren’t were young white men. Compliance was a lot better than it was when I was there two weeks ago. Trump is losing this argument in Trump country.
Jeffro
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Coverage like this sucks. 80%+ of the country (including a majority of Republicans)…which would seem to me to mean 80%+ of the businesses and their owners…are all good with wearing masks and keeping the social distancing going.
But as always, it’s that rare bird, the midwestern diner-dweller (or in this case, the lunatic owner of a Texas bar) who gets all the media attention.
Go interview people with masks on and businesses that require masks, snooze media. You’ll be busy, because there are a lot of them.
Alex
In the linked TPM article, McConnell says “Just because you’re 21 , it doesn’t mean you don’t have a responsibility to other people.” The customary expression is “free, white, and over 21.” Kind of says it all.
Roger Moore
@Kent:
I’m a bit surprised by that. I know of at least 5 stores in the nearby downtown that are selling cloth masks, and one of them (a pharmacy) is also selling disposable ones. One of the nearby churches is giving them away, though I think they disappear pretty quickly.
Bill Arnold
@MattF:
She seems genuinely mystified that her chosen tribe chose the side of stupid re SARS-CoV-2.
There are a large number of influence operations at play re SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19, including some of the anti-masking. Many/most have not been tracked back to their sources. I suspect some are funded/done by (literal high-functioning) psychopaths with some possibility of gain, e.g. a tempting inheritance-to-be, or short positions in some markets, or more complicated hedge-fund plays. Probably some are foreign; I would not be surprised to see an analysis of Russian involvement with apparent intent to further fracture/weaken the US. (Many other possibilities as well, obviously.)
Elizabelle
From the Richmond Times Dispatch:
Spanky
You young’uns probably don’t remember this, but there was a lot of pushback against seat belts too, resulting in car manufacturers putting in buzzers if the seat belts weren’t fastened. Of course, people left them fastened on the seat and sat on them.
And then it went away. I guess people got tired of their performative art – and being thought of as dumbasses. Dunno if this generation of dumbasses will give up so easily.
Jeffro
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: He has to keep a least a lil’ bit in touch with actual facts/the real world, or else he wouldn’t be able to keep himself in power and bring about the white supremacist Randian utopia he’s working towards.
hitchhiker
I keep looking at those rising curves of infection from back in March and April and wondering why so many people think some magic is preventing it from happening again. We had hardly any cases anywhere, and then within weeks we had thousands and thousands. I guess they can tell themselves it was overblown if they happen to be someplace where luck (no early superspreader events) and imposed stay at home orders combined to keep it at bay.
Now we’re all in this weird limbo, knowing that as far as the virus is concerned, it’s always March and April. It’s always time to look for new hosts. Some of them will be superspreaders. Some of the people who get sick will get very, very sick. Some won’t make it.
And masks are the problem?
Bill Arnold
@MisterForkbeard:
In New York State, with a mandatory face coverings order, this is not a problem. My town is maybe 50 percent minority. Everyone indoors in masked. (Sometimes people pull it up/put it on right before entering the store, but that’s at least compliant.)
And the rater of new infections has flattened quite obviously starting 5-10 days after the mask order. (I’m in a county with a fairly high infection rate at peak.)
There’s still a fair bit of infection within (unmasked) households; I hear of couples being infected. (Probably one was careless.)
Jeffro
Btw folks nice 1-2 punch in the Post right now, courtesy of the Never-trumpers.
First up is Waldman with The Never-trumpers Might Be On To Something
Talking about an ad that a new anti-trumpov PAC, Republican Voters Against trumpov, will soon be spending $10M to run, Waldman notes how despite the polarization, even moving just a few votes will help and is much more likely than say in 2016:
The other piece is by BJ’s favorite Never-trumper, Jennifer Rubin:
Biden underscores the big lie that Republicans tell themselves about trumpov.
Cameron
@Kent: I’m using the homemade ones with a bandanna, a coffee filter, and two rubber bands. Does it work? Dunno, but since most of the people I get within 10 feet of are also wearing masks, I guess I’ll be all right.
Repatriated
@Spanky: Wasn’t just a buzzer. 1974 model cars actually couldn’t be started without fastened seatbelts. (’73 law, repealed the next year.)
Mandalay
NPR did some fine research and reporting on the location of testing centers in Texas: In Large Texas Cities, Access To Coronavirus Testing May Depend On Where You Live
Nobody could have predicted their finding:
Some unkind folks have argued that Trump is deliberately mismanaging the pandemic to kill off those of us who aren’t white. I think they’re wrong, but only because he isn’t anywhere smart enough to plan that.
Kent
Fuck that. How about I walk into the church service and pee all over the altar? and and then whip it out and wave it in front of the kids? I mean my freedom is being infringed if I have to keep it zipped up. What’s a little harmless pee compared to dying of Covid? When my rights to free expression are at stake.
Spanky
@Barbara:
This sounds like a job for
suBAUD!Kent
It’s actually not surprising and both more mundane and mendacious than appears at first glance. In other words, it’s a symptom of a larger problem, not something done deliberately because of Covid.
The reason there are far more test centers in North Dallas is because there are far more medical centers and clinics up there.
The REASON why there are far more medical centers and clinics in wealthier and whiter North Dallas compared to poorer and more black South Dallas is, of course, part racism (and the state’s refusal to expand Medicaid) but also our reliance on private sector medicine which goes where the money is.
Martin
@Spanky: And motorcycle helmet laws here out west. They didn’t get tired of the art – states implemented fines for not wearing belts – usually pretty hefty ones.
When it moved from automakers adding nag devices to states fining people, it caught on.
I’ll also note that DUI went through similar backlashes, lead paint, hair spray, then freon. Hell, we still have people hoarding incandescent light bulbs.
brendancalling
After reading what PA Republicans did, I just want them all to die, and I hope it hurts a lot.
i never used to be this callous, but this is what they want.
oatler.
I’ve been getting my masks from the local Circle K. None of whose customers wear them, apart from the clerks.
Mandalay
@Jeffro:
That’s some serious bullshit from Rubin right there. There’s no need to go into details, but it’s pretty darn obvious that Warren, Harris, Pelosi and Clinton all have far less in common with Trump than Biden.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Also, too, he would definitely state this out loud at some point if he were doing it. This would lead to short-lived hemming and hawing from his supporters, then full-throated support from his supporters once they conceived a too-clever-by-half justification that enables the MSM to treat it as just more partisan bickering.
ET
The dark side to American Exceptionalism is a real blind spot that we live our lives with other people and what we do does actually impact others AND what they do impacts them. There is a bone deep selfishness to this that is very, very ugly.
I wonder if in cases like this – particularly in senior facilities – that anyone trying to get people to wear masks confronting those that bleat LIBERTY should just be a bit more blunt and ask them about how much they hate and want to kill the people they live with. And then turn to the someone near and say X hates you and and doesn’t care if you die or ask why he/she hates you as the caregiver so much.
Omnes Omnibus
@rikyrah: Exactly. People can be cavalier about mask wearing, they can forget, they can think that it doesn’t really matter because they are just going into the place for a second, and I can be okay with it. People are fallible and often dumb. A specific policy against masks? That’s is the sign of an asshole – and quite possibly a fascist.
Spanky
@Mandalay: I thought of Clinton first and stopped right there.
La Gata Gris
Some scumbags are using COVID as a bioterrorism weapon on reservations (and yes, it is bioterrorism): indianz.com/News/2020/05/25/callous-and-dangerous-tribes-see-covid19.asp
Martin
But, this is part of what Lee Atwater was warning us about on his deathbed. Once you construct the cultural apparatus to achieve the goal, you no longer need to aim for it directly. You just hand it over the public and they do it for you. That’s part of why Trump avoids a national strategy – why should he craft the plan to kill off black and brown people when he knows full well Texas will do that with no prompting from him. All he needs to do is delegate.
And we saw that in full light in Minneapolis the other day, and in Georgia a week ago.
It’s notable that Republicans like Burke so much. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Burke was issuing that as a warning, but Republicans see it more as an electoral strategy – displace the good men, and then do nothing. That’s playing out fully in the PA legislature right now.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Spanky:
It helps that seat belts in cars today are attached to the support columns, so that’s not possible now
MattF
@Jeffro: One thing I noticed in the Rubin column is positive mentions of Hillary Clinton, e.g.:
Yeah, ‘Hillary Clinton is better than Trump’ is faint praise, but still…
Gin & Tonic
@Martin: Wonder about the correlation between cigarette smokers and mask-avoiders.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@zhena gogolia: Hmm. One person we ordered from had sent it in less than a week (gift for my SIL). The other about a week. The last one two over two weeks. In all three cases, we made sure to pick people who were based in the US and had delivery date ranges that were reasonable. I could look up the sellers we used and send them to you, but I’m not sure if it is appropriate to post it here. I don’t have any relationship to the sellers or sell things on Etsy, FYI.
Mandalay
@Kent:
Agreed. A deficiency in the NPR’s research, which I should have pointed out, is that they did not include temporary and mobile testing centers in their reporting:
This article provides more details on testing Texas: Rural Texas has struggled to get testing compared with big cities, but mobile testing sites could help.
I’m deeply skeptical about the accuracy of the coronavirus data for Texas because the published numbers are implausibly impressive.
Patricia Kayden
Luciamia
@Spanky: I remember. And some idjits were still trying to make the argument that it was better to be “thrown from the car.”
Mike in NC
Just a few weeks ago masks in public here were few and far between. Now about 95% of people I see have them. Went to Publix, Dollar Tree, and the post office today. Many establishments have signs posted that if you don’t have a mask, they’ll gladly provide one. Dollar Tree had white cotton ones at two for a buck.
Trump would wear a mask if it was designed to look like a $100 bill.
Kent
On one level it is arguably true. In contrast to Trump, Biden comes from legit working class roots. He went to a mediocre public university (Delaware) and got his law degree from Syracuse which is a decent school but no Ivy. He is pretty self-made.
Pelosi is the daughter of a congressman and former mayor of Baltimore. Clinton came from a wealthy family and was educated at Wellesley and Yale. Harris came from an academic elite family. Dad was a Stanford and Yale professor, mom a Berkeley-educated scientist. Elizabeth Warren is the only other one from similar working class roots.
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): So, Ramsay One Construction is the CA flooring company. Yelp has blocked new reviews – I was going to add one simply stating their policy since they somehow forgot to add it to their profile.
So, I instead reported them to the Ventura County Public Health dept. Everyone in CA should give them a call – 805-981-5101.
cmorenc
@MattF:
We have truly gone through the looking-glass when Megan McArdle and Bill Kristol are on our side, at least until after the election.
rp
@Mandalay: I think you’re taking this a little too literally. Rubin is trying to praise Biden, not slam other Dems.
Oklahomo
@HumboldtBlue: As someone who works in Fort Smith, I’m surprised it wasn’t more.
Oklahomo
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Who knew the tree of liberty liked the bodies of plague victims as much as the blood of patriots?
rikyrah
@Kent:
you know, other countries give disposable masks to their population.?
Yes, we should be doing this. We all should be able to get them. But, we know that is not the country we live in.
cckids
@Kent: As a grocery worker here in Seattle, we just this week started having masks (fabric, washable) in our store (Fred Meyer/Kroger) They arrived with no notice, and we’ve had a good supply all week.
So maybe the supply chain is revving up
ETA: I’m meaning, masks for sale.
Brachiator
What?
Didn’t New Zealand make masks optional as they dealt with the pandemic.
I have no problem with masks and I wear one whenever I go out. But I have not seen anything that conclusively shows that masks are crucial. I read one of the primary stories noted, which also suggested that people wear masks indoors as well as when out in public.
There is also the issue that people may not remove and dispose of masks properly, and may actually end up infecting themselves when they touch their face.
Mandalay
@Kent: All true, but irrelevant since Rubin was explicitly referring to “the politician arguably least like Trump”.
Good luck with making the case that the politician Biden is less like Trump than Warren, Harris, Pelosi or Clinton.
WaterGirl
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: If you want to look up the sellers and send me the info, I can pass that on to anyone who asks for it.
I might actually be interested, myself!
JoyceH
@Luciamia: Wow, that just brought back an awful old memory for me. Almost forty years ago. I was the command CACO (casualty assistance calls officer, a collateral duty) and one of my guys was in a one car accident. Doing 120 in a borrowed sports car and ran into a tree. Shot out the sunroof and landed on his head. He was brain dead when I saw him, on life support in the hospital for organ harvesting. Cops said if he’d been wearing the seatbelt he would have walked away from it.
J R in WV
@Baud:
Probably true, also probably because black men wearing masks are capable of triggering violence among racists and poolice — but I repeat myself~!~
Kent
Here in Camas my two closest groceries are QFC and Fred Meyer (both Kroger). I’ll keep my eye out and see if they have them. QFC has been markedly better about Covid management than the local Fred Meyer so I’ve been going there. Less crowded too. I think some of that is due to local management, not corporate as they are both the same corporate entity. But the local QFC really does things right. Not that Fred Meyer is bad, they are just less diligent and the store is laid out less well for management of distancing and crowd control.
Barbara
@Kent: Clinton’s family was not wealthy. Is it now the case that anyone who has a college education or whose parents were reasonably successful business people or academics should be considered “elite”? As opposed to what, may I ask? So my parents, who were college educated, but who struggled with financial and health issues don’t “count” as working class even though they worked their fingers to the bone? What kind of fuckery twists even modest academic progress into a curse when it should be seen as progress? Seriously, I am offended through and through with this framing.
Searcher
@Kent: It would have cost $7 billion to put ten masks per household member in every mailbox in America.
Searcher
@J R in WV: Just wait till half the police officers are shooting young black men for wearing masks and half are shooting them for not wearing masks.
Kent
@Mandalay: Well, OK I guess. It’s a silly argument. None of them are remotely like Trump in any way. You have to go back to corrupt fools like James Trafficant and Rod Blagojevich to find Dems who were remotely similar to Trump and even they were nowhere near as venal or sociopathic.
WaterGirl
I went to the grocery store today for the first time in 4 weeks. Three stores actually. All 3 had signs on the door stating that wearing a mask is required in order to enter the store, per orders from the governor. Every person at all 3 stores had a mask on, including the employees.
On my last visit 4 weeks ago, a worker at one of the same 3 stores had a mask but had it on her chin. I was glad to see everyone following the rules this time.
I’m in IL and I believe our governor is set to make an announcement tomorrow about phased reopening. My first thought about that is “ugh”. We shall see.
Update: Stlll no toilet paper, paper towels, or cleaning products at the two grocery stores.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mandalay: Arguably. It has meaning.
jl
I watched interviews on youtube with the experts who ran the South Korean control programs with SARS, and how they were adapting that to covid-19. They said that their experience showed a person who wore a mask protected others when the mask wearer was sick, and protected, too a lesser but practically important extent, a mask wearer who was not sick from others.
So, I don’t really understand why it’s a good idea to squabble over it with academic stats and studies, unless from field trials in the US to find out if something radically different about it in the US compared to South Korea. Practical experience is just as important as ivory tower experiments and statistical analysis.
Except, would have made no damn difference for us in this case, since Trumpsters didn’t make sure we had enough masks. And since no tests, no way to do field tests on anything when the virus started spreading here.
Kent
So….about 1/10th the size of Trump’s corporate bailout slush fund?
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
RE I’ve been hearing anecdotally that young African Americans (or perhaps just the men) are also disproportionately not wearing masks.
In racist America, health and safety for black people doesn’t matter.
There was a YouTube video of a security guard telling a black man that he could not enter a store wearing a mask.
This is probably rare, but also probably not rare enough.
Matt McIrvin
@hitchhiker:
It reminds me of all the people who look at trends in polling data or football scores and imagine “momentum”, as if they were looking at the trajectory of a thrown ball. This isn’t Newtonian physics, it’s biology.
Ruckus
@MattF:
In the truest sense of the definitions shitforbrainsism isn’t what conservatism or libertarianism are supposed to be. It is what they are today. The 3 are mostly indistinguishable at this time.
rikyrah
@MattF:
did she really think that Left leaners, who believe in science, were going to not wear masks???
she is part of the anti-science, don’t tread on me group??
narya
Matruska has some cool stuff; a little more expensive, but reversible, washable, etc.
My (north edge of Chicago) neighborhood has a lot of mask-wearers, of all races (and the neighborhood has folks of multiple races/ethnicities); even on morning runs I see a lot of runners wearing something, and the Target down the street requires them, as does the neighborhood grocery store. I know this is a blue area of a blue city of a blue state, but it’s still a bit heartening to see folks just . . . doing it.
Matt McIrvin
@WaterGirl: They’re still wearing masks in the grocery stores here in MA. People might have been ignoring the one-way signs a little more. Incessant passing in the aisles, but the aisles were fairly wide.
Paper products and most cleaning products other than disinfecting wipes were abundant, but on my last trip, the big shortage was a complete absence of pork. None at all–the whole section was closed down and shuttered. Other meats were all available.
BJ’s delivery had pork, though. Go figure.
JMG
In the Cape Cod town where I am currently located, mask wearing indoors in commercial buildings and outdoors in the town center is mandatory. People exercising, walking, biking, playing golf, will wear the masks around their necks if they are not near anyone. But everyone has one and wears it. Of course, the median age in this town is 61, which may have something to do with this compliance record.
mali muso
Here in Virginia, as of tomorrow Governor Northam has ordered that masks are mandatory when indoors at public places such as stores, etc. I scored some really awesome home-made ones with cool fabrics (kente cloth!) from the mom of a friend, so we are pretty well set for the moment. Also got an email from Old Navy that they are now selling “masks for the whole family” in a variety of colors, so there’s another option.
rikyrah
@MattF:
did she really think that Left leaners, who believe in science, were going to not wear masks???
she is part of the anti-science, don’t tread on me group??
Matt McIrvin
@Mandalay:
I have no trouble believing that Stephen Miller is thinking along those lines.
Trump, I think he just thinks of all this in transactional, personal terms. Want help fighting the pandemic? Well, there’s got to be something in it for me. Why should I help you survive if you’ve been mean to me? He says that out loud all the time.
BRyan
Jim Wright/Stonekettle mentioned on twitter cloth masks that he likes, along with the source. (I don’t specifically recall, but think the company might have had a charitable tie-in as well.) On the basis of his recommendation, I ordered a couple. Nice, well made — and the cost increased by 25% (from $8 to $10 each) before my order arrived. I figure his recommendation had caused a significant upturn in their business and they capitalized on it with a significant price increase. Mine were at the price at time of sale, to be clear, but the timing of such a significant increase in price didn’t sit well with me; I’d be unlikely to buy again, or to recommend. Happy to find disposable surgical-type (not medical) masks available in boxes of 50 for $25 at a local grocery store.
WaterGirl
@Matt McIrvin: Not so good here on paper products. Abysmal, actually.
I called ahead to ask what day the local Amish Poultry business delivers, so I was happy to score 4 packages of chicken breasts from them.
With all the outbreaks at the meat and poultry plants, I don’t see myself buy anything other than local meat and poultry for quite some time.
Bill Arnold
@Brachiator:
Find one documented case where this happened with SARS-CoV-2. Or even indirect contact transmission. There may be such a case study; too many papers to keep up with. There are, however, plenty of SARS-CoV-2 case studies clearly showing spread via the air, probably mostly suspended (very) small droplets.
Jeffro
@Mandalay: that word, ‘arguably’…
pamelabrown53
@Mandalay:
JC, fuck me on 2 sticks. Just go sit in the corner with the man baby and his accolades and whine, whine , whine. If that doesn’t work, throw your tantrum.
Martin
@rikyrah: If you think about it, the elastic on disposable face masks are functionally the same as bootstraps. And where would we be as a nation as we just willingly handed people their own bootstraps.
Jeffro
@MattF: Exactly.
The NTs are at least as fired up to get rid of this clown as we are. No 3rd party, no excuses, no hesitation. His abuse has been on record for four years now.
I’d be shocked if we got more than 1% 3rd-party voting nationally this time around.
rikyrah
@brendancalling:
???
Mandalay
@Kent:
Well since you seem absolutely hellbent on going there:
I’m not equating Biden to Trump, and will happily vote for him, but the notion that he isn’t “remotely like Trump in any way” is both silly and wrong. Biden being somewhat like Trump is actually perceived by some as a strength of his candidacy,
NotMax
@raven
LP machine. Works only thirty-three and a third percent of the time?
;)
J R in WV
@WaterGirl:
Actually, that varies by state, and in many states by county.
Here in WV it was done by the county health department, which decided that employees were being damaged by second hand smoke, which was so thick in many places that I couldn’t make it into the door. Friend who is health dept inspector had to visit bars and such in redneckistan parts of her county.
After the first night of that assignment, she requested and received an armed County Deputy to accompany her on her rounds of the hill country bars. Because they threatened her. And she is no wilting violet, more like a bramble thorn. But she shut them down one at a time, until they changed their ways.
Then after the Rs took over the state leg, they started to work to remove that capability from the county health depts, and bar and restaurant owners piled on to the Rs in the lege, begging them not to change things, as wonder upon wonder, they had gained lots of customers who were not willing to be in a could of poisonous fumes to drink or eat.
Amazing, I tells you!! Who could have imagined that even in bars more people don’t want to smoke poison than do~!!~
But then in Missouri we stopped for lunch at a big interstate restaurant, was late for lunch so place was empty, we sat down, ordered lunch, and a guy sat down in the very next booth and lit up a cig. 90 other tables empty, he sits down right by other customers who were NOT smoking while waiting for lunch.
Pretty sure it was very deliberate, people who are arseholes are willing to work hard at it, 24/7!
Jeffro
@Kent: Great point.
There’s also probably some folks who haven’t seen or heard of the congenial, genuinely warm sides of all the other folks mentioned (which is a shame, because they are all so likeable!) whereas Biden is probably seen by many as always easygoing and empathetic – the anti-trumpov.
eric
@Jeffro: she is 100% right. Biden’s strength over every dem and every rep is the sense that he is a good guy. it is not his policy chops, but the sense people have that he is a good man. that does not mean the others are not good. It is the reason that his handsy nature gets a quasi-pass. People intuitively think that he is a good man. His talk to the military families who lost a loved one is one of the all time best moments i have seen from any politician. that is what makes him least like trump as Rubin means it. It is part of makes him unlike just about everyone . Everyone likes Joe, even Bernie. That is his superpower
Bill Arnold
@Brachiator:
New Zealand took other, very strong and early measures[1], and it helps that it is an island. Too late for the US, so we need the long slog, reducing R0 to well less than 1 and waiting…. Universal masking as source control is a part of that.
[1] Pretty good review: New Zealand eliminates COVID-19 (The Lancet, Sophie Cousins, May 09, 2020)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I remember t-shirts with fake shoulder straps you could wear over your clothes to fool the cops.
Bill Arnold
In 1919, the Mayor of Oakland Was Arrested for Failing to Wear a Mask – John L. Davie was a larger-than-life politician, but during the influenza pandemic, even he wasn’t above the law (Erika Mailman, May 21, 2020)
but includes this, about the apparent effects of universal masking for “source control” to block sprays from influenza-infected individuals.
Matt McIrvin
@WaterGirl: That’s a good point–everything I’ve read suggests that the risk to you from infected plant workers is low to nil, but if you buy the stuff you’re still supporting a system that is spreading the disease among workers.
Matt McIrvin
@Spanky: I remember people being insulted if you wore a seat belt in their car, like you were casting aspersions on their driving skills.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mandalay: You. Are. An. Idiot.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
Entirely up to you but personally would class that as misplaced caution.
trollhattan
@Mandalay:
Narrator: “The PowerPoint presentation ultimately proved unpersuasive, and the seminar was ended early.”
Soprano2
@Kent: I feel the same way. Every week I expect to see a big display of them in WalMart, but so far nothing. We’re going to reopen our pub on Monday, and we’ll have them available for anyone if they want them. I’m not sure where our manager is getting them, but some of the vendors are offering them free as a promotion. I ordered some cloth masks that took about 3 weeks to arrive. They’re acceptable but nothing special. To me it is shocking that more retailers don’t have them for sale yet.
Jeffro
@mali muso: personally, I’m loving it. The “F your feelings” crowd, 15% of the population that they are, can either do as they’ve been told or face the consequences.
Maybe someone should explain it to them in an ad or something: “not EVERYTHING is about your privilege, so shut up and mask up.”
But glad to see it here in Virginia, the New, Blue Dominion ;)
(North Carolina, we’re coming for you next!)
Matt McIrvin
@Bill Arnold: I heard recently of a hospital study that concluded that surface transmission on medical instruments was important. But that was a hospital with COVID-19 patients that presumably had a lot of fresh virus everywhere.
I’m no epidemiologist but the picture I get is that fomites are important but short-term. People aren’t picking this up to any great degree from delivered packages or contaminated food. They get it at the grocery store but it’s probably mostly from other visitors, not from the groceries.
JMG
A PS to the mask situation in one part of Cape Cod. At the local Stop ‘n Shop, which is huge, employees not only wore face masks, but the ones responsible for uncrating and stacking produce, meats and poultry had the clear plastic face guards as well. So did the fish guys.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: 1) It’s totally unappealing.
2) I don’t want to support a company that behaves that way.
It’s a two-fer!
Matt McIrvin
@NotMax: It depends on whether you’re worried about personally getting infected (low risk) or contributing by your actions to the workers infecting each other (high risk).
MattF
Zuckerberg says social media shouldn’t do fact-checking, gets pushback.
Jeffro
@eric: exactly. And he really is a good guy.
Bill Arnold
@Matt McIrvin:
If you can find that study please post a link. A quick google scholar scan with those keywords and variants found nothing. I see lots of papers about precautions medical workers are taking and about surface contamination, but nothing about transmission from indirect contact. Did find a case (in china) of transmission from an infected mother to her newborn, probably before birth.
sheila in nc
@VOR: I’m a tennis player. One of the upscale tennis and golf apparel companies I shop with online offers color-coordinated masks to go with one’s outfit.
cckids
@Kent: Yeah, our QFC here is vastly better than Fred’s. A big part of that is that it’s just a much, much smaller store, easier to ride herd on customers, and to clean, etc.
My store is approximately 150,000 square feet; the idea that they’ll limit the number of customers is laughable.
Brachiator
@Bill Arnold:
RE: There is also the issue that people may not remove and dispose of masks properly, and may actually end up infecting themselves when they touch their face.
Lay people are insisting that masks are absolutely essential and that’s the end of it. But I am seeing discussion of proper use, removal and disposal of masks from various health authorities. I even see distinctions made between paper and cloth masks.
BTW, even though I see mention of how small the virus particles are, I don’t see verification of the degree of difference that masks make.
I also notice lay people discounting or ignoring the importance of social distance and other factors, such as ventilation and length of exposure, or hand washing. Masks are becoming everything, a simplistic solution.
I would like to see some actual testing of the efficacy of masks. Again, I note that I wear masks and have no problem with recommendations about their use. But I would like to see something more solid about their effectiveness.
ETA. Related to this, I have seen a couple of videos showing how the virus could spread at a food buffet, using simulations. But I have not seen anything that actually confirms this. OTOH, some explanations of how people in a choir got infected, or how a restaurant with poor ventilation helped an actual infection outbreak are more persuasive.
narya
@WaterGirl: I don’t know exactly where you are or what your resources are, but Mint Creek Farms is my primary source for meat that I purchase (a friend hunts, and I have a fish share, so don’t buy a ton of other meat).
Matt McIrvin
@Brachiator: Makes me nuts when I see people touching the outside of their masks all the time, or pulling them down to talk or even cough over them, stuff like that.
WhatsMyNym
Even B&H Photo Video is selling paper masks online (Chinese made) . I was able to get washable cloth masks from Etsy shipped the next day from California from 2 different suppliers.
Masks are available from reputable suppliers if you look.
CaseyL
My masks came from local sellers on Etsy, and I followed a link from a news story (I think) to them. There was a lag between ordering and delivery; I don’t remember how long it was since I was able to wear my shop masks in the meantime. One batch I ordered had the behind-the-head ties, though, which I’m not fond of. Ear elastics from now on!
(I may see if I have some old clothes to scrounge elastic from, and modify the tie-backs with it.)
Today I left the house *twice*! Once for a dental appointment, and once to go to the Post Office. That’s more in-person interactions all at once than I’ve had since Mid-March. I feel very cosmopolitan.
frosty
@Slappy Kincaid:
“…outside of the major metros in NC, it turns into Alabama.”
Funny, that’s PA too. As Carville said, “Philly on the right, Pittsburgh on the left, Alabama up the middle.”
pamelabrown53
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thank you. More succinct and no hyperbolic cursing.
Bill Arnold
@Brachiator:
There’s precious little science about the universal use of masks as a means (one means) of limiting virus spread in respiratory virus pandemics.
Humans are, however, doing the large scale “natural experiments” required. With surveillance video records (which weren’t around in previous pandemics) we’ll be able to directly confirm mask compliance levels, with other records, infections/death levels and the perhaps even the social contact networks around individual cases, and some nice studies will be published. If masks are found to be effective (they will be, I’m quite sure), people will notice the very high human body count for these experiments.
Not picking on you, just irritated at Homo sapiens subsp. americanus.
NotMax
@Soprano2
Good on you for making them available.
Ditto on the rest. They are mandatory here but I have yet to see any local shop selling them.
Elizabelle
@MattF: I adore that headline.
LongHairedWeirdo
There’s some irony here, for me.
I once was in an online conversation with gun nuts (and I use that term carefully, though no one is a perfect judge), and I said something to the effect of “Of *course* I’m afraid of guns! That’s why I treat them with respect – always check load state, never point in an unsafe direction, finger outside the trigger guard until I have a target I’m intending to shoot.”
Not a one of them could handle that simple, obvious fact: the reason to treat guns with respect, is out of fear of what failing to do so might bring. Nope, fear just couldn’t be any part of the issue, only pansies are afraid of guns (not pointed at one’s self, of course) in any way.
I’m not frightened all the time. I’ve been a tiny bit more frightened of Covid-19, than I am of a gun I’m uncasing while in a booth at the range; but that’s because with my gun, at the range, I control everything except other people, and that’s not the case with Covid-19.
So I know the meme of “I’m in no way afraid, and fear is not at all a part of this” exists among the… sorts of people who think like this. I guess it’s not surprising they assume those “horrible, despicable people who fall on the left side of the political spectrum” could have their fear controlled by the control they have over the risks.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
I can acknowledge the boycott aspect, but really you or I have no way of determining if a product has come from processing plant X (bad practices) or plant Y (better practices).
debbie
@WhatsMyNym:
I’ve had good luck getting masks from unitedmedicalsupply.com. Got a package of 25 Level 1 masks in less than a week.
jc
A big part of this tragedy is what a stubborn imbecile our chief executive is. If a Democrat says to wear a mask, that means I must not wear a mask.
This country needs to require that all candidates for high public office pass a basic science course, or be disqualified.
Nicole
We’ve been buying cloth masks- I’ve started hitting up Etsy for most of them because if I’m going to be wearing a mask, I want unicorns and dragons and other fun things on it, damnit. It’s usually a couple of weeks, but so far everything has arrived. I just got one with a really nice print from Alaska, and as the seller was one of the faster shippers, I just ordered 3 more from them in other prints.
For exercising, I prefer to run and inline skate in a neck gaiter, which I know doesn’t offer the same level of protection, but as I’m passing people outdoors, thus not spending more than a couple of seconds near them, I figure the risk of transmission on either side is already low, and this way at least I can exercise with a covered nose and mouth without passing out. For shopping or regular errands outside, though, it’s a cloth, at least 2 layer, face mask.
Betty Cracker
@eric: As a cynical person who dabbles in advertising, I would exchange “superpower” for “brand” but otherwise agree. It’s a powerful thing, and it doesn’t even have to be true, it just has to be believed. Trump’s “successful businessman” brand, for example — complete bullshit but believed by millions.
Ohio Mom
I’m with Kent, masks should be a lot easier to find and also a lot cheaper.
My CVS finally has diposable ones for sale for $2 each, limit five; sounds like a huge mark-up to me. I bought a quota worth to supplement the ones I’ve sewn.
There are a pair of enterprising women selling hand made cloth ones outside my Kroger’s most days, $15 each or two for $25 (which seems to be what masks go for on Etsy).
On one hand, that’s a reasonable price for something handmade, on the other, eight masks for a family of four (one to wear while the other is washed and dried) comes to $100. That’s a lot for people on a tight budget.
After that, it’s the internet, with all the issues about slogging through all the possibilities and hoping you picked a legitimate vendor, and waiting for them to arrive.
I know there are lots of people not wearing masks because Freedumb but I think there are probably lots more people who just can’t figure out how to find affordable masks.
Turkey and other countries that mail everyone masks on a regular basis have the right idea.
J R in WV
@Mandalay:
I think your perspective on Biden is nearly all wrong. I too hated what happened during Clarence Thomas’s confirmation hearings. I too resent unthinking support for big business. Etc, etc.
But Biden has the grit to apologize when he gets something wrong, and I think those apologies are heartfelt, not ‘I’m sorry if you were offended, now fuck off!’ apologies. I too supported Harris at first, Warren after that. But when our primary rolls around early next month, I’m all over voting for Joe Biden.
I resent your list of flaws Biden may have. I resent your attitude. Fortunately, thanks to Watergirl and Major ^4 AND Cleef, all of whom worked to implement a pie filter to allow people to take part in a blog without suffering through people who are insufferable, I do not have to duffer through your bullshit for ever, I can just add you to the pie filter list.
So long, pissah ~!!!~
trollhattan
@WhatsMyNym:
Have yet to see any in physical stores, so ordered some from Amazon. I thought I was ordering from Amazon but it turned out to be a 3rd party Chinese seller. They’re “in transit” since April 28. “How does June sound, is June good?”
Ordered another bunch from Amazon-Amazon last week and they arrived Tuesday. On the page I also had the option to add them to my wedding registry.
Wife’s friend discovered on visiting her mom last week that she is a TP hoarder. TP stacked in the garage, TP filling the extra bedroom, TP in closets, TP filling all available space. She ain’t young and quite literally will never live long enough to use it all.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Brachiator: There’s actually some great evidence that masking, on either side, provides some protection from Covid-19. In a test with hamsters, the infected having the mask stopped some 83% of infections (and with lower viral load; there’s reason to suspect Covid-19’s severity might be dose dependent). Masks on the non-infected side stopped some 65% of infections, IIRC.
It’s not perfect because they were hamsters, and the masks were on the cage (with, I assume, something to move air between cages). This is in line with earlier articles I’d seen on DIY masks (from a trusted source).
From this, it seems that droplet transmission is probably the biggest infection vector. Covid-19 doesn’t seem to be very infectious in aerosol form, under normal circumstances – one sneeze didn’t infect a whole restaurant, but it did infect people in droplet paths). Take that with a grain of salt, and keep current on news, because I’m not a doctor or epidemiologist.
Given that, it’s almost certain that masks help, because they can stop droplets, so long as the mask doesn’t get wet. If your mask is wet (not just “a bit of breathing vapor on the inside” but wet through), put on a new one ASAP. A droplet landing in a wet spot can allow the virus to travel in the wetness (which is, after all, water!), meaning it can get somewhere inside the mask.
Because Covid-19 doesn’t seem to be *extremely* easy to get from surfaces, most people probably don’t need to be too worried about touching a mask used in ordinary day to day activities, but *must* have the discipline to immediately wash their hands. Medical staff are given much more stringent guidelines, but remember: they’re far more likely to have far more of the virus on their masks!
Proper usage is still a good discipline to have – what I’m saying above is don’t go into a panic if you realized you’ve had the front of your mask in the palm of your hand, before you dropped it in the wash. Just wash your hands and remind yourself to be more careful.
zhena gogolia
@J R in WV:
Great comment!
Chyron HR
@Mandalay:
Yeah, Trump is a rapist and Bernie told his supporters to make laughably insincere fake rape accusations against Biden. THEY’RE EXACTLY THE SAME!
Matt McIrvin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): So many things these days apparently “suppress your immune system” that it would be easier to make a list of what doesn’t.
SFBayAreaGal
Masks are mandatory in stores and outside in San Mateo County.
WaterGirl
@narya: It’s just me, and I would never eat enough meat to be able to do a share like that. But maybe someone here does, so I appreciate the tip.
ballerat
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I’m ok with it. They are deliberately trying to kill people.
CliosFanBoy
my cousin in Beavercreek Ohio says they’ve been insulted for wearing a mask! “Liberal ‘sissy'” etc.
Betty Cracker
@trollhattan: So THAT’S where all the TP went! Poor thing.
I am happy to report that the TP supply chain is healing, at least in Central FL. I’ve seen TP available on two consecutive grocery runs (damn right I bought some each time!), and a nearby gas station displays rolls in its window to attract TP-PTSD customers.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: I think if I’m getting chicken from the Amish people in Illinois, I doubt it’s coming through a big poultry processing plant.
stacib
@Bill Arnold: I had a co-worker tell me today that wearing a mask sends your body into fight or flight? WTF??? (BTW, she “knows” that the Kawaski disease is a result of immunizations.) She’s also insisting she has a RIGHT to not wear a mask. Fortunately, I work at a global company that says if you don’t wear a mask on their property, you end up in HR.
Brachiator
@LongHairedWeirdo:
I’ve seen the hamster studies. They are weak for the reasons you mention.
I keep looking for some reasonable quantification of “it’s almost certain,” and have not yet found it in reporting on this.
I wonder how a mask would get that wet?
I also wonder how many people go out with multiple masks.
David Evans
@Nicole: A sports shop near me in Cardiff, Wales is selling masks with a Welsh flag, including dragon. Also other British flags.
burnspbesq
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
In order to have manslaughter, you need a corpse and specific intent to kill. What you’re talking about is reckless endangerment, or criminally negligent homicide if somebody dies.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: I keep a second one in my briefcase.
burnspbesq
@Mandalay:
i will stipulate that you are virtuous and woke if you will just shut the fuck up.
Your shtick is really tiresome.
Nicole
@David Evans: I’ve seen some with the Wales dragon on them, too! I’m thinking about buying one for a friend who is very proud of her Welsh ancestry. Come to think of it, my better half is of Welsh descent, too. Off to Etsy!
LongHairedWeirdo
@Martin: Another factor that might be important is, a lot of kid’s TV has done a lot of modeling. If the heroes are on the run, they’ll still get their seatbelts on before moving.
Best part of that is, once you’ve done it for a generation, you’ve probably affected all parents and grandparents of that generation, since they don’t want to teach their children the wrong lesson. And at that point, it’s just what one does.
@Mandalay: You’re right, but I forgive that, only because he’s the one going against Trump; so I read it as “where Trump is clearly broken, Biden is clearly whole.”
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Honestly, I think he’s convinced that he doesn’t have to do anything, because it’ll be a blue state phenomenon. That might well be true – I imagine many would-be-red-states might turn blue if Covid-19 does enough damage.
@Luciamia: Yes. And some motorcyclists scorn helmets because they only protect against an impact at a small MPH.
I saw an article that said the reason for this is, that’s how fast your head is going if you fall to the ground, from standing. And the reason for that is probably two-fold:
1) it takes ever-more weight to provide protection, and
2) if you hit your head, at the speed the motor cycle was going, a helmet might not protect you – just the sudden g-force of the stop will do plenty of damage.
So, helmets are intended to protect you when you lay it down, and hit your head. I didn’t see this from primary source data, but it’s so elegant, it would be awful if it wasn’t true. (NB: doesn’t mean it isn’t true!)
@Searcher: 70 billion, since Trump didn’t start collecting PPE *and* PPE capacity, until the market was starved. (Or, maybe I’m wrong – but mask prices did go up a factor of 10, in places, for N95s, and other PPE)
Brachiator
Looking at how France, country famous for its restaurants, is opening up. From BBC News
In Paris.
For the rest of the country.
As an aside, this is interesting. Bonuses for health care workers.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
My local Target’s TP shelves were just shy of being full for the first time since February. Hopefully, full shelves of wipes and Purell won’t be far behind!
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: @debbie: The TP aisles have been stocked here since April.
Bill Arnold
@stacib:
She’s full of shit[1]. Ask for the science \(paper citations, etc) on this. Good to hear that you have a masks-or-HR policy at work.
There was a piece at a place called sciencetimes.com (lots of junk; stick to places like phys.org) with an egregious title “New Evidence Shows Wearing Face Mask Can Help Coronavirus Enter the Brain and Pose More Health Risk, Warn Expert”; I wrote a long diatribe to the site. It has been circulating in the right wing meme swamps and among anti-vaxxers, who are now anti-maskers too, many of them. The name was changed, but not the ridiculous content citing the (apparently) out-of-his-ass opinion of one Dr. Russell Blaylock, a retired neurosurgeon who now peddles (dubious) advice and nutritional supplements, saying that masks trapped viruses inside and made them recirculate and thus more likely to infect the brain, presumably down the olfactory nerve. Without a shred of evidence, just the opinion of some crank.
Shit, the article mentioned “Commission on Disease Control and Prevention” which exists no place outside that article according to google. Probably they put it there to track people who copied their disinformation piece.
[1] I’ve personally played with fight or flight, and worked out how to do it and similar things very quickly on demand. Masks have no such effect.
J R in WV
@zhena gogolia:
Thanks. I’m trying to be adult when I become infuriated, maturing now that I’m 69… No more screaming rage. Just quiet rage.
What does he think he’s doing there, anyway? Who else does he want to see running for president? Pounding Biden is the same as pumping Trump up, isn’t it? at this point?
What an ass…
The Moar You Know
@CliosFanBoy: Happened to me here in San Diego about a week and a half ago. Dude must have been looking to get his ass beat on purpose (probably had an accomplice filming) as I really am the last person that you’re going to walk up to and call a “fucking coward” – 6′ 2″, 225, and I open carry a knife. Which is totes legal in California, BTW.
I just laughed in his face and walked away.
Quiltingfool
I went to Pinterest and found a free mask pattern. They are fitted masks, not the straight rectangular masks. I made 4 of them, pretty easy to make, but I do sew a lot, so what is easy for me would not be for a non-sewer. Plus, I have all the sewing stuff needed and tons of fabric as I make quilts. I could make masks to accessorize any outfit! The only thing I didn’t have on hand was quarter inch elastic – but I did have wider elastic, which I cut into quarter inch widths. It works. I noticed that wearing the mask today (shopping day, ugh) didn’t bother me as much as the first time I wore one, you just get used to it and no big deal. Anyway, I’d rather suffer a little discomfort than being irresponsible. I really worry about the workers in stores – they are much more exposed than I am, as I stay home most of the time. I love retirement!
satby
@WaterGirl: oh, if the Amish chicken producer is Yoder’s chicken, it probably is. It supplies something like 4-5 states.
satby
@Brachiator: I keep 3 in my car.
satby
@Ohio Mom: $15 each is crazy expensive. The masks I bought for jackals from a maker here at our market are $5 each, the fitted ones with a flexible metal piece to shape around your nose and three layers thick with a slot to add a filter between the second and third layer. They tie around your head too. She does excellent work for that price, and she’s still making loads of money.
JAFD
In other news – From TheCounter.org
“Burst bubbles. Ever wondered where seltzer gets its fizz? Turns out, a lot of the carbon dioxide we drink is a byproduct of the ethanol production process. While Covid-19 kept people at home and out of their cars, demand for gasoline tanked (and with it, demand for ethanol) and carbon dioxide production slowed. The Wall Street Journal reports that prices have increased as a result. One brewer told the Journal his bubble costs have increased by 25 percent in the past month, but he hasn’t yet raised beer prices on his customers. If the production lag persists, though, prices may continue to rise throughout the summer, ultimately pushing up the costs of soda and beer.
This could create—sorry—a bubble bubble.”
Original Lee
@Kent: One of our local businesses started offering some pretty good cloth masks about a month ago, and when I placed an order for 4 last week, they said it could take 3 weeks, but I got them today. Might be worth checking out:
http://Www.routeoneapparel.com
Gvg
@Brachiator: the testing done on cloth masks was all published awhile ago, early on and now everyone almost just accepts it. There were % stopped and all and it wasn’t what you would dream of, like no 98%. Cotton basically won. Tight weave is important. Layers help. The lady I learned from who was sewing for medical relatives recommended inner layer of non woven interfacing which is a kind of blown fibers fused by a machine so tiny holes. It was hard to get for awhile, fabric stores sold out. In fact I had trouble getting white cotton thread.
a lot of the tests and studies weren’t by medical labs. Those people are busy, but some of them were and they were all coming up with similar results. Another recommendation was high thread count pillow cases. Apparently they tend to have a really tight weave even compared to high thread count sheets. Stretchy material is actually not good. The holes get bigger when you stretch it. Look back about 2 months ago for this info, not right now.
WaterGirl
@satby: It’s not Yoders. It’s Miller.
Buzz N. Skeeter
@rp: I just made a similar realization with Sheldon Richman
No One You Know
@zhena gogolia: yeah. My experience too. Onron didn’t ship either and Amazon’s third-party seller is so far behind that I haven’t even been charged yet.
Brutusettu
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: some people aren’t too concerned their congregation has a high % of retirees and older, it’s luck and other people’s efforts that have kept those places from getting decimated. And a sizable % are the opposite of grateful for it.
Brutusettu
@stacib: yeah, some seem to think simple cloth mask are like some military style gasmask with clogged filters or something.
But I suspect that if their “Orange Man Bad” started to tell them to wear mask they’d have a solid chance to get unstuck in time if they saw anyone without a mask within 500 yards of them.
Matt Welch
@rp: You might have me confused with Matt Walsh. I haven’t written anything like that.