What you see below is a post I started drafting 2 months ago on May 2. I offer this post – not to talk abut the specifics of Gaza or Israel – but because it’s the perfect example of the current rules of the game. The deck is stacked against us. By people who are influenced by disinformation, by people who lie whenever they open their mouths, by the media.
The deck is stacked against us, but I still think we will win. We do that, I think, by working hard and by tuning out all of the noise.
In 2007-08 when I was in Iowa volunteering for Obama, they wouldn’t let us do any sort of social media, and they worked us so hard morning and night that we didn’t have time to even hear the noise, let alone listen to it or be influenced by it. There’s a lot to be learned from that, I think.
I don’t accept that Democrats are the only ones with agency, but I sure as hell think we need to be using ours. We fight for Biden. We fight for the House. We fight for the Senate. We do our thing, clear-eyed and focused, and let the chips fall where they may.
If we’re smart, we’ll save our energy for the fight, and not spend it on infighting.
Anyway, here’s the post I started then, useful as evidence of the rules of the game.
I hate what’s happening to the people in Gaza.
I have trouble making sense of the decision not to vote for Biden because of it.
I see that I’m not the only one.
Gen Z: WE DEMAND A CEASEFIRE!
Biden: I want that too.
Blinken: I’m working on that right now.
Trump: Israel has to finish the problem. FINAL SOLUTION!!
Biden: no, that’s wrong. Civilians must be protected.
Hamas: we aren’t releasing the hostages
Israel: we aren’t going…
— Angry Staffer 🌻 (@Angry_Staffer) May 2, 2024
Full text of the tweet.
You’d think the fact Netanyahu wants Trump to win would be enough to convince them to vote for Biden.
— THEE Montana DemGirl 🐝 (@BeccaRocks7399) May 2, 2024
x
Cacti
Biden has my vote for POTUS because the alternative is unthinkable.
But let’s not pretend he’s been good on the Gaza conflict.
TBone
Hmmmm. I’m supporting President Biden just like my Jawn, Senator Fetterman, who has staunchly supported him this whole time!
Watch what they do…
Telsiree
Murc’s Law and Murphy’s Law had a baby and named it Gen Z.
WaterGirl
@Cacti: Yeah, I don’t have the energy to litigate Gaza today. Just using that as an example of the field we’re playing on.
WaterGirl
@Telsiree: Ha!
I never pay attention to Gen Z and Gen X and other age groupings. I couldn’t even tell you the years those groups span, except I know that they are both younger cohorts than mine! :-)
Replace Gen Z with “the media” and it still works the same.
Subsole
It is beyond the point we need to admit that for far too many people, this has nothing to do with Gaza. It’s just a way to Get Even with Mom.
And a lot of opportunists using it as a wedge issue to ratfuck the only thing between us and the end of democracy.
lowtechcyclist
With Gen-Z kids who aren’t MAGAts, I’d come back to climate change. They’re the ones who are going to be living in this world long after people like me are gone. With a Dem President and Congress, we can continue making progress in addressing climate change. With Trump in the White House, we can kiss the next four years – and quite possibly a lot longer – goodbye in terms of trying to limit global warming.
Their choice.
bbleh
I realize it’s generally true that people mostly vote their emotions and impressions rather than their policy choices or what would objectively be good for them. This isn’t new. But it does kinda surprise me how hard they’re sticking with that — at least for now — even given their comparatively deep familiarity with the candidates, the huge differences between them, and the stakes of the election. They just Will. Not. Let. Facts. Get. In. The. Way. It’s dangerously childish.
Now this likely will change as the election approaches. More people will do at least a little bit of thinking, and if/when they do that, TCFG’s awfulness becomes so glaringly evident that it’s got to be to Biden’s advantage. I just hope enough of them do that.
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
“Don’t blackmail with planetary destruction.”
I agree. I’m taken aback at how environmental enthusiasm has died down.
I’m at the point where I just don’t trust passionate people anymore.
BR
@Cacti:
No, not good. But I encourage anyone here to run the numbers — how many international deaths has each president been responsible for, either because of US troop deployments or weapons, in offensive campaigns such as Gaza.
I saw some data on this recently. The numbers show that Biden has been responsible for the second least deaths — directly and indirectly — of all presidents in the last 7 decades. Only Clinton had fewer international deaths, and that was because he was lucky to be president at the end of the cold war and just after the first gulf war, so there was a general lull internationally (except for the Balkans).
Based on what people are writing about Gaza you’d think Biden was uniquely bad, but he’s actually better than nearly every president in recent history.
This doesn’t negate the human suffering there, but just puts things into perspective. Maybe folks need to make some social media videos with the actual numbers and graphs.
Subsole
@WaterGirl:
A lot of it feels like Zodiac signs for the adverts department.
“Oh, you were born in ’76? This is the nostalgia we’re going to wrap around our new car we’re trying to sell you.”
Michael Bersin
@Cacti:
And this should be one reason why:
Trump Muslim ban protest at Kansas City International Airport – January 29, 2017
Cacti
For Arab-Americans, it’s very easy to see why they wouldn’t vote for Biden. He’s told them that their families are expendable and their lives matter less than Israeli ones. I can’t see myself as being sanguine about that if I were in their place.
Barbara
@Cacti: Considering how stacked the deck is, I think Biden has been surprisingly even-handed. Look at the public freak out among the donor class when students protested. Imagine how much harsher they are in private. I get daily emails from AIPAC (don’t know why) and they are as histrionic as you might imagine.
TBone
@TBone: circus comment lifted from elsewhere:
TBone
@Subsole:
Skeptic: “I’m a Sagittarius.
We don’t believe in astrology.”
😁
YY_Sima Qian
I don’t this is difficult to understand. Biden & team has largely failed to exercise the US’ immense leverage over Israel to rein in the latter’s pervasively criminal conduct in Gaza, or hold it to account in any way. The Administration has expedited 2 years’ worth of munitions to Israel over a couple of months, w/o which the IDF would not be able to sustain its brutal campaign in Gaza or launching a new one in Southern Lebanon. The US has consistently provided cover for Israel at the UN & wrt the ICC case, & is increasingly isolated in so doing. Biden has made the US directly complicit in Israel’s war crimes & crimes against humanity in Gaza, & has responded to critics of its Israel-Palestine policy w/ arrogant dismissal. Any wonder people are pissed?
Sitting out the election in Nov. would be an extraordinary act of self-harm & self-sabotage, but the emotional response is perfectly understandable & indeed predictable.
BTW, there are Jewish donors threatening to ditch the Dems if Biden deviates from “Israel, right or wrong”. Can we spare some exasperation in that direction, too? Should they be part of the Dem coalition, if they are just single-issue voters/donors on supporting Israel w/o reservation? Do they not care about the damage Trump & the reactionaries will do in power, including heightened threat to Jews from the Herrenvolk authoritarians?
Mike E
Link? Or, putting words into his mouth? I think the latter.
Michael Bersin
Oh, we’re quite aware.
In 2020:
“…The problem for me is you’re the type of good German who might be pleasant to my face, even present me with a gift card for coffee, and then you’d stand around with your hands in your pockets when the Gestapo showed up to take me away…”
Cacti
Don’t forget lending them the US Navy to fight the Houthis.
TBone
@TBone: cartoon alert! 💙
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/06/mr-jefferson-would-word
Starfish
@Cacti: And it is not just Arab Americans. It is the entire diaspora of Muslims in the US. They have seen Palestinians as persecuted for generations. Voting for Biden is voting to fund a government that is not helping with the famine being faced by Palestinians.
And if they go to mosques or Islamic Centers, for sure the treatment of Palestinians, efforts to send relief, and so on are being discussed in those spaces.
The students are not just opposing Biden on this issue. They are opposing their own universities and the endowments of those universities. They really do want the universities to divest from companies that are making weapons that are being sent to Israel, and they also want them to divest from companies contributing to climate change.
Mike E
Not helping? Bullshit.
Anoniminous
One of the solid findings of Cognitive Neuro-psychology is the fact people make decisions emotionally and then cobble together word salad in justification; that’s what Damasio was on about in “Descarte’s Error.” A secondary finding is trying to directly change a person’s opinion about Gaza using dialectics is pointless. You’ll just drive them into ever deeper attachment to their opinion. Find something else: Global Warming, the economy, abortion, and talk about that.
And remember: surveys are finding less than half of the US even knows the three branches of the federal government. There are some dumb assed mofos running around so don’t be discouraged when running into one.
raven
@WaterGirl: rotsa ruck again
Cacti
@Starfish: And Biden has basically told all of the student protesters to fuck off, and called them anti-semites for exercising their rights of free speech and assembly.
$4.25 million in lifetime AIPAC contributions has shaped his worldview to say the least.
CCL
So this is what I have been thinking all morning. My energy is finite. I am not going to waste one iota on things that don’t get us closer to the goal. Or, as Another Scott says: “Eyes on the prize.”
Thank you for these words, WaterGirl:
Anoniminous
@YY_Sima Qian:
There’s reason. AIPAC has and is spending tens of millions to oust Democrats who opposed the US’ blank check support for Israel. If it was the American-Russia Political Action Committee people around here would be livid. But since it’s Israel people are OK with it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Mike E
@raven: another pie eating contest! More baseball and metric futbol awaits on this lazy Sunday.
raven
@Mike E: And England is on the ropes!
YY_Sima Qian
@Cacti: The Houthis are attacking civilian shipping in one of the critical choke points of global commerce, I don’t think the US’ & Europeans’ response is uncalled for. However, offshore strikes is a tactic that is never going to succeed as a strategy. Get a permanent ceasefire in Gaza, & there will be a lot more global pressure on the Houthis to cease their attacks. Political problems require political solutions.
TBone
@CCL: 💙
Cacti
@YY_Sima Qian: The Houthis are attacking the shipping of countries trading with Israel. In what conflict has attacking commercial shipping not been considered a legitimate military target?
Starfish
@Mike E: Let me know what help is actually reaching the people it is intended for.
Money is being sent, but is it reaching the people?
This mess from a few months back was pretty terrible.
WaterGirl
@Subsole: You could be right about that!
schrodingers_cat
Yesterday’s events were clarifying.
In addition to being racist and sexist our political media is ageist and ableist. Many white liberals also showed us what they are really like when the going gets tough. They melt down and throw their allies under the bus
YY_Sima Qian
@Cacti: Their attacks have been more expansive than ships w/ direct links to Israel.
Mike E
@Anoniminous: are you sure there isn’t some synergy happening between the actors you mentioned? I find it fascinating the connection between Putin and Netanyahu isn’t examined more carefully, or at all. BTW Israel isn’t the 51st state of the US as some here claim.
WaterGirl
@Barbara: I agree, and I think Biden has been way firmer with Bibi than we even have an inkling about.
But Biden can’t CONTROL Bibi. Bibi is not an honest actor; he’s only in it for the power and to save his own skin. You can’t reason with someone like that.
Mike E
@raven: this tourney has been an all-time classic, Georgia beat Portugal! (Go Dawgs!)
WaterGirl
@TBone: Thank you for all the hints lately, much appreciated.
raven
@WaterGirl: They sucked you in.
Bupalos
@schrodingers_cat: What happened yesterday?
Cacti
True. If they were a US state, they’d only control 2 Senators and a handful of representatives.
schrodingers_cat
@Bupalos: The post debate hysteria.
WaterGirl
@CCL: You stated it really well. Our energy is finite. That’s where I’m at.
Do I have a time machine to re-do the debate? Nope. Do I have any control over what the media spin will be? Nope. Do I have any control over what any other human will do? Nope.
Just do the work and the rest will sort itself out one way or another.
That’s what I’m trying to do.
schrodingers_cat
The media is trying to do Biden what they did to Hillary, Gore and Kerry. Its an all out coordinated assault. They do it because it works. It works on the weakest link in our coalition.
Subsole
Speaking from somewhere in the middle, it feels like they only have smoke for Democrats. Always. Hell, Trump used Palestinian as an outright goddamn slur the other night. Who did our Leftist Betters dump on? Genocide Joe and the
Perfidious InternationalJewexcuse me, Zionists.No matter what you do, it won’t be enough. Or it should have been earlier, or later, or different, or phrased another way. Or about something else altogether.
I would respect their activism a lot more if it felt more like activism and less like an endless parade of excuses for why they can’t put down the bong, turn off South Park, and go do the absolute minimum to stop a fascist takeover for fifteen minutes. Or an excuse to beat up on people for the high crime of trying to listen to them.
@Baud: It’s this. It all just feels like a form of emotional blackmail from people who didn’t get their way all the way back in 2016.* It’s a form of emotional abuse. You try to meet them and accommodate them, they still threaten to flounce over some goalpost-shifted horseshit, threatening to hand you over to people who wish you harm to do as they will, then the unbelievable little shits shriek about hippie punching when you flip them the digit they have so richly earned.
*Actually, I would argue they did get their way. I am coming to believe for a lot of Bernie voters (at least in ’16) voting Left was just a way to express the most rank misogyny in a socially acceptable manner. They didn’t want to put That Bitch in her proper place; they wanted
Universal Healthcareinsulin pricingPublic Transit expansionpolice abolitiona Middle East ceasefire. Shit. You think half those golks gave a damn about the TPP? Remember the TPP? Remember when it was just the most important goddamned affront to humanity? Fuck yeah, you do…Y’know how Libertarians are just Conservatives who want to be able to smoke weed? A lot of these guys are just ‘Liberals’ who want to jettison feminism.
Subsole
@schrodingers_cat:
Happily, it won’t be as effective.
Sadly, that’s because Biden is white and has a penis.
Cacti
@Subsole: And there it is.
If you criticize St. Joseph of Scranton, it’s because you’re a crypto-Jew hater.
This sounds an awful lot like “If you oppose Bush, you want the terrorists to win”.
WaterGirl
@raven: No one bats a thousand!
Bupalos
@schrodingers_cat: I feel like it’s a little optimistic to call that “events of yesterday.” But also not that charitable to consider that folks are having honest freak-outs. Though the folks with public impact and following are indeed being pretty irresponsible and counterproductive.
Subsole
@TBone:
LOL
schrodingers_cat
@Bupalos: I had some BJers in mind.
Raven
@WaterGirl: There’s not much chance it wouldn’t devolve into what it has. . .
Bupalos
@Cacti: Come on man, dial it back a little, no? There is definitely massive disappointment in America’s foreign policy towards Israel, which the Biden administration has either not been willing or not been able to change. And strong frustrations with that and strong emotions about that are understandable. But your language is really running to an extreme here.
Cacti
@schrodingers_cat: As one of the posters I actually respect, I’ll ask you this respectfully. Do you think Biden’s debate performance is a problem that’s going to go away? The next debate isn’t until September.
Mike E
@schrodingers_cat: Our press, they do or do not, there is no “try” (to quote a certain Star Wars Muppet) and this is an unfortunate reality with our corporate-controlled (and fascist curious) media, sadly. Not to mention a white cishet patriarchy who needs what Villago Delende Est preaches here, often.
ETA and now we have our trolls squaring off at each other, what fun!
VFX Lurker
Same here.
Bupalos
@schrodingers_cat: I’m sure. I hope a distinction can be drawn between folks that have a responsibility in a public capacity and folks wanting to just work out what they’re thinking with others in conversation.
I know there is a strain here that the engagement that happens here is part of public advocacy. I don’t agree with that strain.
Cacti
@Bupalos: I voted for Biden because he was the only candidate who polled as beating Trump in a head to head matchup in 2020. And I did so, knowing full well that he has always been a member of the bipartisan war party.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
You should talk to my sisters’ Jewish mother-in-law and her friends; according to them, it is, and don’t bother them with your boring facts. That very point is an on going fight between this women and her own grand kids.
My sisters’ Jewish mother-in-law is also on record for insisting that my sister’s two sons should be eligible for the Israeli army draft, even though my nephews are native born American citizens along with their parents and venomously opposed to the abuse of the Palestinians. My brother-in-law actually told her to shut up when she told my sister this.
TBone
@WaterGirl: I hope that’s not snark! 😆 A stubborn, old mule CAN learn new tricks! 💙
schrodingers_cat
@Bupalos: They can work out their neuroses in the comment section, we can counter it as we see fit.
Anoniminous
[emphasis added]
Six media companies: General Electric, Time Warner, Sony, Disney, News Corporation, and Viacom, control 90% of US media and thus control what is permitted to be discussed, who can discuss it, and how it is discussed. Those three factors provide autocatalytic boundaries and controls for the political discourse the majority of Americans ‘consume.’ We can see the result in the Reality of the debate is completely disconnected from the propaganda establishing the public Message and Narrative of the debate.
schrodingers_cat
@Mike E: Definitely not a troll BJer is pushing a ticket that doesn’t have Biden. It appeared on my TL this morning.
Starfish
@Bupalos: What Subsole was doing was not great.
I am sure people noticed Trump’s Palestine comments, but the way it is framed here is as a conflict that doesn’t exist.
Are people complaining about Joe Biden’s Gaza positions newly and vociferously after that debate? Please show me some citations on that one.
Subsole
@Cacti:
Funny. Jewish groups say the exact same thing.
We’ve been ’round-and-about this before. I don’t expect to change your mind. But I will say if you constantly demand we listen, then refuse to speak when we show up, it does you no favors. Makes people feel like you’re not really interested in fixing things, but more like you’re just beating up on us because we actually care and you know that it’ll hurt because we care.
That impression gets stronger when you sit back and realize that you don’t ever try it on the GOP. Ever. Because they don’t give a shit. At all.* We do, so that gives you permission to pass the abuse on to us.
*If you’re lucky they don’t give a shit. Alito, I’m sure, cares a very great deal about Muslims. I imagine he and Leonard Leo are keenly interested in them, their faith, and the future of their communities.
But hey. If you’re cool watching your neighbors and family get deported, so am I. I am not begging people to save themselves anymore. I’m done. You either have self preservation, or you don’t. Maybe that’s not fair, but that’s where I ended up. I am not the only one. Better figure out how to fix that.
Or don’t
Edit: That applies to EVERYONE. Not just Palestinians. So just put that argument right back in your pocket.
Starfish
@schrodingers_cat: Did they decide on a Presidential candidate, or is it GENERIC DEMOCRAT goes here?
cain
@lowtechcyclist:
I wonder how much that ship has sailed given the Chevron case. If the EPA can be challenged and overruled by SCOTUS judges who listen to the industry lobbyists – it’s going to be hard.
Our Democracy is already in deep trouble with a hard right SCOTUS. Even with a full sweep of Dems, we’re going to have to out of the box thinking to deal with the SCOTUS who can declare anything we do to regulate them as unconstitutional.
schrodingers_cat
@Starfish: They did.
O. Felix Culpa
@WaterGirl:
Then maybe not the best choice to front page? Just sayin’. With that, I’m done for a while. Don’t have the energy for debate recriminations of any stripe or for Gaza. There are a few good books waiting. Escapist literature, here I come!
JML
@Cacti: you’re trying to apply a traditional “Rules of War” framework to a group that’s not a nation-state in conflicts that are not declared traditional wars between nations. The attacks by the Houthis on commercial shipping are indiscriminate. This is terrorist activity. I mean, come on: trading with Israel makes you a “legitimate” military target?
But the real point on all of this is TFG and the GOP have made it very clear they’d support bombing Gaza off the face of the earth and killing every Palestinian left in the region. Biden does not, yet a minority position expects him to change his policies to suit them with little political gain for Biden and only threats to torpedo him in order to gain…what? The drive to wreck Biden by pro-Palestine forces in the USA is nihilistic, and completely ignores the wider political landscape.
Subsole
@Cacti:
The slave-trading theocrats who keep attacking neutral shipping ? Those Houthis?
That’s who we’re going to bat for now? Really?
schrodingers_cat
@Subsole: Many BS or bust folks are not Democrats they are Paulites.
TBone
@WaterGirl: you’re at 999.5
Subsole
@Mike E: Well, in fairness, voting for Biden doesn’t really help Hamas. So they are technically right.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Cacti: Were do you get that about Trump? He was the guy who stopped the Iran war because it distract the public from his golf score, and vowed to end the Russo-Ukrainian war by going full surrender monkey. Trump is a stated isolationist and the only reason more of that didn’t happen was because he is such a damn fool he made John Bolton his security advisor.
If one wants peace in the worst possible way, Trump is defiantly the man.
Cacti
@Subsole: As opposed to the baby bombing colonizers?
TBone
@Subsole: thanks for laughing at my ham-handed attempt to inject humor! I love old jokes.
Yesterday, I was at the end of my rope here because someone insisted on arguing about a MacGuffin I’d referenced in a joke, singularly focusing on it instead of the subject of my joke…
Then MSNBC had Margaret Cho on. I felt so vindicated! 😆
https://www.msnbc.com/katie-phang/watch/comedian-margaret-cho-on-the-legacy-of-lgbtq-comedians-213950533525
“Laughter is HOPE.”
Plus puppy.
Raven
Asshole doesn’t usually hang around this long.
Anoniminous
@Mike E:
There’s a possible synergy from the fact of the influx of Russian Jews into Israel during the Cold War bringing with them a tendenz of authoritarian and ethnic violence from Russian political enculturation and indoctrination. We know Netanyahu had – has? – a warm relationship and “personal friendship” with Putin. We know Netanyahu ancestors came from Russia. We know Netanyahu’s father wrote
Which is more-or-less what Putin has said about Ukrainians.
It would take someone more knowledgeable than I to take the above, add or subtract more data and information, and come to a conclusion.
Eunicecycle
@Subsole: I agree with every single thing you said. I think I need to subscribe to your newsletter.
cain
@Subsole: This. Trump reiterated a ‘final solution’ for Palestinians. He basically advocated for wiping them off. If that doesn’t turn on alarm bells – then their activism is bullshit.
Trump will not only seek to wipe them out, he’ll also make sure to start targeting every non-white demographic with laws. 30 million people to boot out?
30 million people that’s a lot of people that are connected to a lot other people. I expect that to be round one.
Ksmiami
@cain: heavy weaponry can easily solve our court issues.
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m not neurotic, a drama queen, a bad ally or any of the other condescending lables you have affixed to someone with a differing opinion. What if you are wrong? What if this is an extraordinary election and some of the conventional wisdom just doesn’t apply? What if Biden’s performance isn’t consistently good for the rest of the campaign? What if he falls apart in the September debate? I think the risk of that is too great.
It is possible to just say you disagree without attaching all the other baggage to it. I genuinely think this is a crisis. You don’t. That is your opinion and I hope you are right. I am reacting this way because I care, because I’ve always tried to be a good ally, because I am a fighter.
cain
@Cacti: I believe they were criticizing the protestors. You did hear about Trump wanting to do a ‘final solution’ right during the the debate right? As you said, you’re voting for biden because that’s about all we got at this point – you’re trying to turn this into some kind of dear leader thing and that’s not how left leaning people are. Hell, you’re an example of that – and you’re part of this community.
Cacti
@JML: There are non-uniformed participants in every war. The “only we get to bomb and shoot people because uniforms, state actor, and no laws of war apply to you” now favored by the west is John Yoo 21st century revisionism.
Subsole
@Mike E: Bonus points for “metric football”.
Cacti
@Raven: Speaking of tools of colonialist oppression.
EarthWindFire
@schrodingers_cat: Yep. I thought I never be this embarrassed to be a white liberal but here we are. My cohort has been disgraceful since Thursday night.
WaterGirl
@VFX Lurker: We are legion! :-)
(hopefully)
Omnes Omnibus
@MomSense:
You know it’s quite probable that s_c is not talking about you, right?ETA: Never mind.
Subsole
@Mike E: Bonus points for “metric football”.
@YY_Sima Qian: Thank you. Jesus. I feel like I’m going crazy listening to some of this.
You do not, in fact, have to hand it to a bunch of slave-trading pirates who want to literally execute gays in the street, folks.
WaterGirl
@TBone: Definitely not snark.
I am not a big starker; you can pretty much take what I say at face value.
schrodingers_cat
@MomSense: You are a weathervane and not a good ally.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Curious who that might be.
Bupalos
@MomSense: The folks freaking out at the prospect of a freakout are of course themselves freaking out in their own way.
Hopefully they can cut us some slack and we can cut them some slack. It would be a really great time for everyone to be a little more gentle with each other.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: She is here right now and in the thread before last. My quick scan shows.
BellyCat
Did anyone else notice that Trump NEVER answered the debate question (asked TWICE) about what he would do to address astronomical child care costs?
No “Trump-curious” parent will have failed to take note of this.
MomSense
@Omnes Omnibus:
No, she is. I’m the person on her TL who posted Harris Pritzker – and it doesn’t fucking matter because I’m a nobody.
Like I’ve said many times over the years – we are just talking to each other on balloon-juice.
WaterGirl
@Raven: I am apparently an optimist.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: I am talking about her.
WaterGirl
@TBone: Kind of you to say~
MomSense
@Bupalos:
Yeah, I keep saying we can just disagree.
cain
@Ksmiami: Let’s see if Trump is going to get a free pass with immunity from the SCOTUS and see if they’llgive him immunity but only him. I’m really waiting for them to turn themselves into a completely ignored body of govt.
WaterGirl
Call me crazy, but I think reasonable people can disagree without being bad people.
Cacti
@MomSense: I’m not on the “Biden must drop out now” train because I don’t see it as a silver bullet solution to the problem, or a guarantee that it will improve the situation.
However…I think many commenters here are downplaying just how bad the optics were for our 81 year old candidate. Other candidates having a bad debate don’t really compare, because no Presidential candidate has ever been an octogenarian before, and age-related questions about ability to serve a second term are entirely legitimate. And the next debate isn’t for more than two months, so he has no immediate or near opportunity to erase that image from people’s minds. That’s why all of this is so bad.
The lone mitigating factor that I can see is that very few people don’t have an existing opinion about both candidates.
Bupalos
@schrodingers_cat: It’s really hard to understand the kind of allyship you’re talking about here if you’re casting momsense out of consideration (and I presume everyone who thinks the debate performance is a big biden deal and assessed the ongoing electoral risks differently than you.)
It really is a little hard to believe that you don’t think this opinion can be granted legitimacy.
WaterGirl
I am pretty sure that what I think, what MomSense thinks, and what SC thinks are not going to change what happens with the democratic nomination going forward that actually matters.
Repeating something from up top:
In this example, it’s what the three of us ACTUALLY DO going forward to help Dems win across the board in November.
I know what I’m going to do.
cain
@BellyCat:
Cuz he doesn’t really care – if you are voting for Trump, you are not voting for policy. You’re voting for chaos because you think the entire thing is broken and perhaps fascism is the right answer.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Then I am a bad person and unreasonable. This blog always circles its wagons for white women. I am out of here.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: it’s just gross. I’m at a loss to explain this rapid capitulation. Silence from the Republicans should be a big clue. They’re sitting back and laughing while we decapitate ourselves.
Quadrillipede
Yes.
MomSense
@Cacti:
We are talking least worst options. Whatever. I hope I’m wrong but it seems we cannot tolerate any deviation of opinion without personal attacks.
Suzanne
@MomSense:
That’s because you are intelligent, have foresight, have enough theory of mind to get out of your own head, you have pattern recognition, and you can observe changing conditions.
You’re talking to some who still perseverates on Bernie Sanders, for fuck’s sake. I hope you recognize that others here, including but most assuredly not limited to me, value your contributions here.
Mike E
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: conservatism is weird, and contains multitudes. But, too, antisemitism is the LaZboy recliner of bigotry: it fits every tired ass out there. Waddya gonna do? The constant goalpost shifting going on oughta render our dishonest narrative seekers dissipated and bereft yet here they are, showing their asses. Oh well.
cain
@WaterGirl:
All this stuff is just silly noise, Aall of us on this blog is voting for Biden. Including Cacti. We aren’t fools. But we do have our triggers though and that’s just how it is.
Visit a conservative blog and you’ll just see uni-think going on. People debating here is a healthy sign. You’re not going to always change people’s minds but I personally enjoy seeing a problem seen from different angles and at times my own position changes.
Cacti
@Quadrillipede: For the reasons I described previously, I don’t agree.
I guess time will tell which of us is right.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: yes!! They have energy and motivation for this because they think it means they can be lazy and gather leaked gossip for books instead of actually learning about policy and reporting real news.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat:
Do I disagree with MomSense? Yes. Do I think that makes her a bad person? No!
I don’t want you to leave our community. I don’t want MomSense to leave our community.
We do not need to make this a civil war on Balloon Juice.
Four years ago your sniping at Pete Buttigieg made me crazy. I thought you were dead wrong in your take, but I didn’t want you to leave, either.
As Joe would say, this is a battle for the soul of our nation. Pushing someone out of the boat, who has been an ally for decades, is really not smart. With very few exceptions, and MomSense is not one of them, all of us on Balloon Juice are all on the same side.
Manyakitty
@EarthWindFire: indeed.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: I don’t think she is a bad person either. I notice your description of my comment, sniping. Hang only white people are entitled to their opinions on this blog. That can be your new tagline. If you are not white, you are sniping. If you are white you are having a disagreement.
Quadrillipede
This is a usage of the word ‘solve’ with which I am unfamiliar.
TBone
@Ksmiami: I’m getting a bumpstock catapult. And a bumpstock crossbow. Loaded with M80s for the patriotic holiday my neighbors have already started celebrating nightly with loud explosions. If ya can’t beat ’em, join in. Ha ha, missing finger red alert at the local ER.
Quadrillipede
It absolutely will.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: I used “sniping” because I thought your complaints about Pete were cheap shots. Not because of the color of your skin or because of where you were born.
MomSense isn’t taking cheap shots at Joe – I think she is gutted and devastated by what she saw at the debate. I think she thinks the patient is dying, and if cutting off a limb will save the patient, she is willing to do that.
Within 2 weeks – and I think much sooner than that – the situation will be much clearer. I suspect no one would be happier to be wrong about this than MomSense.
Bupalos
One thing to keep in mind here is that different people conceive of spaces like this differently. For some I think producing and developing a kind of unity of voice and purpose here is very important to them and they see it as part of political advocacy. As some part of action. For some it’s a space to come be with likeminded people who agree where maybe they don’t get that other places. Differences of opinion can appear threatening to those ideas of the function this space serves. I for one am often guilty of taking that too lightly, in favor of my conception of just a place to kind of work out what I’m thinking in conversation and argument with others. The key to a great space is that folks have some respect for the different functions it serves for different people.
Subsole
@Cacti: Believe it or not, both world wars. And many other, earlier, conflicts.
Didn’t we invade Canada over the British harassing our shipping? (Protip: Do not invade Canada. Everyone thinks Canadians are nice. What they actually are, is pleasant. That is a very, very different animal from nice.)
Hell, go ask the Barbary Corsairs how that works. (Yes, Virginia. Johnny Depp lied to you. Nobody likes a fucking pirate. Because nobody likes a fucking thief. Especially one who kills your mates and sells you into slavery.)
It is genuinely hard to fathom looking back into the blinding glare of the conflagration, but in the wars’ first year or so, there were whole elaborate dances done around the neutrality of Sweden and Denmark and Belgium and other noncombatant states.
Both times Germany violated that neutrality, by the by. You should go read about how it worked out for them.
Suzanne
@cain:
Right. Thank you.
I’m not ride-or-die for Joe Biden. I’m sorry. We’re not in a parasocial relationship. I don’t “have his back”. I’m not in a cult of personality. I’m not a Republican.
Also, this is why I prefer to self-identify by what I believe and I do not identify primarily as a Democrat. I think the party is a flawed institution. Joe Biden — any candidate — is a vehicle for a positive vision of the American future. I am ride-or-die for the vision, and my support for the candidate who I judge to be the most likely to achieve it is second-order. I wish the Democratic Party had been stronger about creating a good succession plan a year ago. Fuck.
BellyCat
@cain: Truth. Trump does not care about childcare. Undecided parents care *immensely* about child care, possibly one of the top concerns for many. I don’t see how Trump gains these voters. We can and should. Margins will matter in this election.
TBone
@Bupalos: 💙💙💙
raven
nah, fuck this
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl:
This blog since it has become your blog, you run it for all intents and purposes JGC is the titular head. Is not a safe space for someone like me.
I wish you all the best. I will snipe somewhere else.
Quadrillipede
One of the more alarming trends that I haven’t had time to fully think through is what I’ve tentatively labelled the “let’s set aside the 95% of things that we agree about and really zero in on the 5% where we don’t agree”, which oftentimes seems to lead people into unproductive lines of argument. Sometimes it’s OK to let someone else have the last word.
If you would like another poorly thought out analogy, it occurred to me the other day that sometimes, a as a white person, it might be a good idea just to suck it up and let marginalized people vent without trying to be overly prescriptive in your responses. We put heatsinks on CPUs because they run hot and generate excess heat. Sometimes you can be the heatsink if you are able to. A bit of generosity and assumption of good faith can go a long way in keeping conversations constructive.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@TBone:
https://www.outfit4events.com/eur/product/9024-chinese-repeating-crossbow-chukonu/
Just a suggestion. ;)
schrodingers_cat
@raven: There are some lovely commenters here, yourself included. That’s why I keep coming back.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The same can be said of the Left and the point that we all need to chill and move towards the the achievable goals we can get, and drop the fantasies until the opportunity for them comes.
I honestly don’t see how can Biden can do anything different; if Biden sat on Bibi to force a peace, Hamas would simply escalate for the dumb fact that Hamas is getting a to cash from donations for the Palestinians. Were we see an Israeli war crime, the Hamas sees another shopping mall in Sudan.
Bibi wants Hamas because they are monsters and Hamas wants Bibi because he is a monster.
TBone
@BellyCat: I also noted his non-response on how to help addicts during an opioids crisis. Those two evasions hit just about everyone in a Venn diagram of derp.
hrprogressive
I suspect but cannot prove that because a lot of Gen Z is super progressive, super tolerant, and identifies at a much higher rate within the LGBTQ+ continuum, many of them are really fucking mad that all the Olds and Centrists that still inhabit politics aren’t on board with their “just accept everyone for who they are” frame of reference, and feel like “punishing” Biden and those by “not voting for him”.
As other commenters have noted in other spaces, I’d point out to my next-in-line brethren that if you withhold your vote from Biden now, which might well be your last chance to do so in a free and fair election if he doesn’t win, the very people you claim to care about, passionately in many cases, are the exact people who will be harmed first, and likely immediately if Biden loses.
A lot of younger folks don’t always seem to have the idea of pragmatism down, and I get it. When I was younger, I thought primarying Obama for not being progressive enough was a good idea, once upon a time.
But the ballgame is a lot different now, and we’re literally staring down the barrel of Actual Totalitarianism in this country if the Democrats don’t get as much electoral power as they can with this election.
If I’m being honest, one of the only things giving me hope in a pretty bleak fucking world for the last 4.5 years has been “the kids” because, they get it on things like human rights, climate change, wealth inequality, etc.
But you’re not gonna achieve that if you throw away your chance to make it happen down the line by being mad at the old white guy in power now who, for all his flaws, ultimately means well.
I think I/P is one of those issues where, unless/until a lot of very brutal and harsh truths are said in public, solving the problems there are…not exactly out of reach, but, like, you’ve got a few very hard barriers to achieving peace there, and while I’m sure it feels cathartic to shout about ceasefires on a college campus somewhere, and while activism is a good thing, I think it misses the forest for the trees a little bit.
Anyway.
I need our younger colleagues to realize that it’s not hyperbole to say “this might be the last chance you get without the country getting much worse before it gets better, if it even can get better in your lifetime” so.
Please tell a Youth You Know that their vote matters more than they can even fathom right now.
Subsole
@Cacti:
And there you are. Predictable as a fucking metronome.
“Any criticism of me and my cause is completely unfounded. We did absolutely nothing whatsoever to merit that criticism, or that would make someone question my motives. Our motives are pure and unquestionable.
All those people harassing Jewish students? The folks protesting outside synagogues? The violent attacks and verbal vitriol and the increasing comfort the Left seems to have with it? That’s all just media manipulation and knee jerk reactionism from people who want to put you in thrall to Israel – who secretly manipulates our government and buys our elections, you know. But that’s not me parroting the oldest fucking trope in the Tsar’s playbook. How dare you.”
raven
@schrodingers_cat: Well, I hope you stay.
Subsole
@WaterGirl:
Course not. The pitcher would die of exhaustion!
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Suzanne: “perseverates.” Thanks for the choice of word.
TBone
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: 😆❤️👍🇺🇸
raven
The equalizer in xtra time! Calling Tony Jay??
TBone
@raven:
@schrodingers_cat:
me too
Seeker
@MomSense: FWIW, you are not alone in your opinion that Biden and Harris need to drop out. I think most people here are wish casting because they want to believe things can still be OK. I don’t think that’s realistic. And no one here should be criticizing you for a completely reasonable take on the situation.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: I will also say that MomSense has always been one of your biggest defenders during any kind of dustup on Balloon Juice or at times you have not felt welcome at Balloon Juice.
I hope you feel welcome here most of the time, and that the times that you don’t are flare-ups but not an all the time thing.
I put myself through college working as a grocery store checker. All the checkers were white, and the baggers were a mix of black and white. Have two vivid race-related memories from that time.
One was the bagger than I often drove home from work if we were both “closing” the store. He would let me drive him most of the way home, but he wouldn’t let me drive him past a certain point because he lived in a rough neighborhood where a young white girl would not have been welcome.
The second race-related memory was from a bagger that I really liked a lot. He was upset because had been called into the office and corrected in some way for something he had done. I loved this kid, but objectively speaking, he really wasn’t a very good bagger.
He was very upset at having been criticized, and he thought it was because he was black. My thought was “no, it’s because your’e not a very good bagger.” But that’s when the lightbulb went off. If you are treated differently most of the time, and held to a different standard, how could that NOT be the first thing you would think when you are criticized? My second thought was “how can you know whether it’s a legitimate criticism or if it’s because the other person is racist. It’s a whole other world that I don’t live in. Privilege is a real thing.
Omnes Omnibus
Congratulations. You are a superior person. That being said, I would be very willing to bet that most people who say they are ride-or-die for Joe Biden say so because they believe he represents the best chance we have to defeat Trump and continue to try to make the country a better place. Not because they worship him. Knowing the stakes means that they are willing to overlook some flaws and problems that Johnny Unbeatable doesn’t have. If you think the choice is Biden or Trump at this stage, that’s what you need to do.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: You can be mad at me, and think I’m terrible, but I still hope you don’t leave Balloon Juice.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Omnes Omnibus:
👍
TBone
– W.C. Fields
Suzanne
@Mr. Bemused Senior: It has literally been eight fucken years since Bernie Sanders ran against HRC, and in the intervening years Sanders has been very supportive of Joe Biden’s agenda, and yet here she is, in 2024, fucken whining about Sanders supporters. Perseverating is the nice word.
The accusations of racism are an extra-toxic touch.
Ksmiami
@Quadrillipede: if things get bad enough, and the ppl have limited recourse, where else would this go? Seriously, I’m not advocating for the French Revolution but dammit at least the French masses had an ethos.
Timill
@raven: There’s late, and then there’s England late…
TBone
The ambulatory emergency chopper has been making trips to and fro our local hospital all day. Helicopter is loud! It flies low, and with a purposeful quickness. Maybe it should land at the fireworks warehouse outlet up the road to drum up some more business.
Omnes Omnibus
I’ll note again that almost everyone calling for Biden to drop out has been a white liberal or pseudo-liberal. Is it any wonder that POC don’t necessarily feel like they can trust white liberals when the chips are down? And with that, I am probably going to walk away for a while. Rehashing this is becoming (becoming… Ha!) tiresome.
MomSense
@Seeker:
I don’t want Harris to drop out. I think she with a strong VP is our best shot moving forward. I like Biden and until Thursday thought he was our best shot for this election. I think that is why it hit me so hard.
TBone
– W.C. Fields
raven
@Timill: And Italy!
Subsole
@Starfish: I never said they weren’t noticed. I said the ire was misplaced.
I am not trying to troll you here. I am being as honest as I know how.
Do you honestly not see how dismissing earnest efforts at redress as being equivalent to doing nothing might be a little counterproductive?
I mean, we’re out here fighting to keep actual neoconfederates out of power, and y’all are saying we’re no different from them? You don’t see how that might rate a “fuck you, too” right back? No sarcasm, I genuinely am asking here.
I suppose my underlying beef is that dems are always expected to do everything for everyone, get nothing but shit in return, and then just sit there and take every form of insult abuse and disrespect, and I’m kind of tired of it.
We try to help Palestinians, the Jews scream that we’ve abandoned them. We try to tell the Jews we want them to be safe from people who genuinely want them gone (go read Hamas’ charter. Their words. Not mine.) the Palestinians call us genocidaires. We stand up to tyrants at home, and people those tyrants want to liquidate are protesting us?
Being fed up with that, year after year, is trolling?? Really?
I get that people are angry and despairing and for some it is very personal. Tearing down the last wall between all of us and the tide of midnight everlasting does not seem wise. Hence my ire.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus:
It is entirely reasonable to have witnessed what happened on Thursday night and think that he just lit that chance on fire.
Just in the last two-and-a-half days, it’s been suggested that people who think that Biden is demonstrating that he is not up to a campaign or running the country for four more years ……. let’s see. There was “you must hate old people”, there were accusations of racism as not listening to black women, there’s “fantasy” and “Johnny Unbeatable” and “only Democrats have agency”. It sounds suspiciously like “Joe Biden can only be failed”.
If this is the most important election of our lifetime, could we fucken act like it? We have no fucken backup plan? We have talented Democrats at every level, in every state.
TBone
– W.C. Fields
Subsole
@Starfish:
From what I saw, it seems to be people inserting the person they wished had won 2020. I saw Buttigieg and Warren. A couple folks for Pritzker, even. Some folks for Newsome, too.
Subsole
@JML:
Thank you for putting that the way I should have.
Subsole
@schrodingers_cat:
Many. Too many.
My issue is I tend to forget it is merely many, and not all.
TBone
– W.C. Fields
TBone
– guess who! 😆
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
Please help me to understand. I never said anything about you as a person. I don’t want you to leave b-j. I don’t understand why my opinion makes me a weathervane. I’ve been consistent this whole time in my support for Biden Harris until Thursday. I think we have to face that Biden may not be capable of conducting the campaign we need.
MomSense
@Starfish:
I have said Harris and anyone else. This morning I said Harris and Pritzker as VP because I think an actual billionaire may have some value in attacking trump and the VP is usually the attack dog.
Suzanne
@MomSense: I wanted Kamala at the top of the ticket in 2020, then voted for Warren after she dropped out. Agree that she should stay in.
I think the critical failure here was to not push her profile higher for these last two years. Really tee her up for this year, position her as the heir to the Obama/Biden legacy. She’s fantastic.
BellyCat
Claiming you’re not safe here because you are:
A. a non-white woman? False.
B. being disrespectful and feel you should be permitted to do so without comment? True.
Whether you realize it or not, you are (not for the first time IIRC) inappropriately pulling the gender and race card — in one of most diverse and welcoming blogs perhaps on the planet — instead of acknowledging good faith disagreement and/or untoward behavior that genuinely merits some pushback.
I get it. It’s hard to hear criticism. My eight year old lashes out like this sometimes. Usually a popsicle helps…
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: You took the opportunity of this dustup to dredge up my opinion about Buttigieg. And you called it sniping. You run this blog. You set the tone.
No one here when they have a different opinion, has you can’t understand English thrown at them. This has happened post Trump with more than one FPer. It didn’t happen this time.
I understood English just fine before I came out here as an immigrant from India. No one questioned my English from 2010-2016 when you didn’t know that I was not born here.
I have no fucking clue what your bagging clerk story is supposed to convey.
You are only okay with my presence here as long as I agree with you. Read your own comments in this post.
Tony Jay
@raven:
The most relieved man in Germany right now is Gareth Southgate. Frozen in terror at the idea of substituting any of his tired, drearily negative players until, a) forced into it by injury or, b) they’re 3 minutes into 6 minutes of injury time and he needs to be able to say “but I did too make changes!”
Then the very first time all game an England player gets closer to a cross into the box than the first Slovak defender and Jude Bellingham pops up to save his bacon. The second goal was, likewise, the first time I’ve seen an England player actually direct a header forward all game, and even that came after a complete miss-kick wrong-footed the defenders.
We’ve been utter garbage this tournament. The only vim coming from the substitutes when they eventually get to come on. The moment we come up against one of the middle-to-top teams we’re getting battered.
That said, I’m still watching. Even this dross is better than hanging around here to be subjected to another eye-rollingly predictable meeeeee-shanty from the artist behind such hits as “Master or Martyr Only Will I Be” and “The Night They Burnt The Big Tent Down”.
BellyCat
@TBone: True. Trump just blew it off entirely.
To be fair, Biden missed on this a bit, too. He talked about stopping fentanyl snuggling with scanning machines needed. Nothing really about treatment for addiction.
Subsole
@Cacti:
So your position is that the Jews should just go back where they came from?
That actually seems very reasonable.
Also, thank Allah, Christ, the Tetragrammaton and Vishnu that Hamas never blew up a baby. Or at least, not one that didn’t have it coming, right?
Seriously. It’s the Holy Land. Stop trying to put anyone over there on a moral high ground. It will only give you ulcers.
Should Israel treat its Palestinian minority better? Yes. Granted, they do give them equal rights de jure – but de facto, I am less certain. I do know a great many Israelis are disgusted by their government and are exercising their right to protest that government.
It would have been very, very nice to see Palestinians do the same when their duly-elected government shot up a rave and murdered, raped and kidnapped people. Perhaps I simply missed all the ones who did so.
Conversely, how do the Arab states treat their Jewish minorities? (The ones who haven’t expelled their Jews, I mean.) Are they obligated to do better? Or are obligations only a one-way street?
That, I think, is the root of my anger here. It feels like you want it all your way. And that never works.
The sad thing is, there is a great deal of profitable discussion to be had here, but it requires a lot more nuance and skill than I can display. And for that I am sorry.
Suzanne
@MomSense:
Being able to change a position when presented with new evidence is a strength, not a weakness.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat:
I wasn’t throwing that in your face.
I was trying to give a concrete example: I disagreed with you in 2020 and didn’t want you to leave either – my point was that you were wrong in saying that only white people who disagree are welcome at Balloon Juice.
I will say again:
It appears that I can’t win for losing in this conversation with you, so I am going to stop trying now.
Nelle
@WaterGirl: Clapping for you over in this corner.
Just in from walking the neighborhood. Found another middle age woman who has now left the Republican party. “No more,” she said. I have daughters to protect. ” Inch by inch.
MomSense
@Suzanne:
I just think that Biden has been slipping now for months and I dismissed it and all the videos because some of them were cropped and I chalked it up to unfair attacks. Then the reality of how he presented on Thursday hit me hard. The next day he seemed better, but not great. Four grueling months of campaign ahead of us where he has to be on every time. I don’t know that he is capable of that and after Thursday I don’t have confidence in the campaign.
I’m not going to abandon him if he’s the nominee. I’m going to work my ass off for his campaign. I genuinely am terrified that it will get worse and we won’t have time to do anything about it.
Citizen Alan
@Seeker: I would very much like to hear your explanation for why you think Harris needs to drop out? No one has even suggested Biden should drop out for any reason other than age and health.
WaterGirl
On a happy note, we are just $51 away from meeting our fundraising goal!
You guys rock!
Subsole
@Raven: Sorry, bud. Stuck doing nothing ’cause I hurt my foot like an idiot. Trying to stay off it. My shift starts in a couple hours. Check back then.
Subsole
@WaterGirl:
Oh, you’re no fun anymore. :p
Citizen Alan
@Suzanne: Personally, while I am grateful that Sanders has mostly stopped pissing inside the tent, the fact that he has been gracious and supportive to a fellow older white male in a way that he never was towards a black President or a female nominee does nothing to ease my seething hatred of him for the role he played in Trump becoming president.
Subsole
@Bupalos:
Not S_C, but I really don’t see how swapping in someone else at this point who isn’t named Kamala Harris ends in anything but a Reagan-level annihilation.
Concerns about optics and the debate performance are valid, but this is NOT the time to switch horses, folks.
Also, do bear in mind most folks aren’t paying attention. I had maybe three people in my shift who even knew there was a debate. (I did get one to start reading about project 2025. So, hopefully some good came of it.)
Subsole
@TBone:
Tactical slingshot, my man.
schrodingers_cat
@BellyCat: My reaction was not just because of this dustup. It is the result of last 8 (2016-2024) years experience as a commenter on this blog and comparied to the previous 6 (2009-2015) years when no one here knew I was an immigrant.
That statement could have come from a generic Republican.
Suzanne
@MomSense: Yeah, I agree.
He is very clearly having good days and bad days, which is really normal. But, like, hot damn. The number of bad days will increase over the next four years. The backup plan has been, “Well, Harris can step in!”. Then let’s have her step in now.
And, I will say, the fact that his campaign has been guarding him so closely indicates that they knew this, and have been attempting to gaslight us.
A stronger Dem Party would have created a much better off-ramp/transition plan. As I said yesterday, Nancy Pelosi did this perfectly. I suspect there are issues of male ego at play.
Subsole
@Bupalos:
Very good point, here.
Suzanne
@Citizen Alan: If Trump becomes president in 2025, it will not be because of Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren or their supporters. Conditions this year are not the same as they were eight years ago. Or four years ago.
BellyCat
@MomSense: I’m leaning heavily on the “cold” and “cold medicine” explanation.
We’ve all been there… Imagine having to square off against that ignoramus when you just want to crawl into bed and go to sleep because you can’t hold a single thought together.
At least we’ll know the answer about “cold vs. cognitive decline” in the next few months, one way or the other. Please let this have been a cold because if not, the election might be a very heavy lift.
Subsole
@Suzanne:
I think that is a function of media rather than Biden, to be fair.
She has been extremely active. The media refuses to discuss her.
Seeker
@Citizen Alan: She’s unelectable. I wish America were different, but it isn’t.
schrodingers_cat
@MomSense: I have nothing against you. I wish you all the best.
Subsole
@MomSense:
If it’s any consolation, he really seems to have been on his game in speeches after the debate.
Yeah, cold comfort. But I would look at his performance since then before we jettison the guy.
Suzanne
@BellyCat: I’m sorry, if someone is that sidelined by a cold, then it is entirely reasonable to question if that person can make it through the next four years in the most difficult job in the world.
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
Then I’m at a loss as to why it got personal. You’ve always been one of my favorite commenters.
trnc
I agree, but my question is, why hasn’t he been good? I don’t believe for a second it’s because he doesn’t care at all about Palestinians. Either he’s trying to achieve a larger policy goal that’s hidden beneath the chaos and destruction, or he just doesn’t have the influence we think he should.
As you say, the alternative is unthinkable, so my question for anyone who may be withholding their vote is “Would TCF be any better on this single issue? (of course not” AND “How will TCF treat Palestinian-Americans (awful, obviously).”
Cacti
@Subsole: Yes, my position is that European and North American colonists should not be aided in their efforts to push out the generational residents of the Levant because of what Germany did almost a century ago. And before 98% of the current population of said colony were alive.
It’s a drain on US resources and a liability to our reputation abroad, and has been so since 1948.
BellyCat
Oh puhleeze…. Maybe go have a popsicle and take fifteen minutes to decide whether you want to come back and play nicely with everyone.
If you feel there is more merit to being identity-less, change your damn Nym! (At least you’ll have the “fun” experience of being called a Troll if you disagree with a few here).
Suzanne
@Subsole: Reading prepared speeches in front of friendly crowds is a different thing. To genuinely rebuild confidence, we need to see him out there, frequently, in different types of venues.
Something else that I have been thinking about….. Biden represented, for a lot of us, a “return to normal”. It’s pretty normal to want to elect someone who looks steady and vigorous so one can avoid too much paying-attention. We need those people’s votes. That’s why this is alarming.
Subsole
@Suzanne:
I think it was a combo. The cold, the stutter, the fact the mods abjectly refused to step in during the extended gish-gallops Trump provided, and also, frankly, poor prep.
Joe was trying to give facts and figures and policy. That ain’t what we’re here for.
I didn’t want Joe back in ’20. I didn’t like him until he looked at that odious little pustules and said “Will you shut up?”
That’s what we need. Angry Joe. No malarkey Joe. Forget the facts and figures and policy. Donald Trump is a piece of shit who surrounds himself with pieces of shit. Hammer them on that.
Also, worth bearing in mind that getting to speak brazenly without halt only helps you if you don’t end up sounding insane. The folks I spoke to were mostly reminded of how much they hated listening to Trump talk.
Everything I have seen post debate indicates no shift that isn’t within MoE, and has them essentially tied. Independents, from what I have read, actually seemed to be breaking our way, if unsteadily.
We all wanted a knockout punch. We didn’t get one. That sucks. But it ain’t over yet.
Mike E
@schrodingers_cat: good catch on the “how dare you criticize this diverse blog of predominantly white old people?” bullshit.
Full disclosure: I’m a white 60 y.o. male 1st gen natural born American, 2nd gen Holocaust survivor.
BellyCat
@Suzanne: You might be right. But governing and debating are different skills.
I was DEEPLY panicked by what I was seeing and hearing — especially from the gate. But having a severe cold that night is WAY BETTER than diving into senility.
Cacti
On that, we’re going to have to disagree. Given his long record of supporting wars against the nations of the middle east, and his dismissive comments about civilian casualties in the current conflict, I don’t think he views middle easterners as human in the same sense as he does westerners.
MomSense
@Suzanne:
I don’t think there is anyone on this blog that won’t vote for Biden. If it comes to replacing him I don’t think there is anyone on this blog that won’t vote for that person. The voters I’m worried about are the swing voters, undecided voters, lower information voters, voters who tune in and out. Basically the voters we have to make contact with 7 or 8 times to get them to vote.
They aren’t paying attention to the campaign stop the next day. They may tune in for the first 20 minutes of a debate and they will see whatever videos show up on their social media feeds. They are the voters that scare me because if they tune in to a debate and they see what happened on Thursday they will not vote for Biden.
Subsole
@Cacti: So you’re saying a German or American cannot be Jewish? That only people born on the dirt they are standing on since time immemorial are entitled to life on that dirt?
I hope I am misunderstanding you here.
raven
@Tony Jay: Ha! I went to peel and orange when Kane scored and I missed it!
Mike E
@raven: Georgia! Own goal up 1-0 over Spain, go Dawgs!
trnc
@MomSense:
I’ll admit to some nervousness after the debate, but since he had a much better day the next day, I’m more worried about the media treating every slip as a catastrophe while normalizing TCF. I’m also concerned about people who turned off the debate after 10 minutes and missed Biden’s marked improvement.
In any case, there is no process for getting rid of Biden that doesn’t descend into chaos. He’s the candidate unless he dies or becomes completely incapacitated. Biden’s best chance for overcoming the debate is to be out as often as he can with the kind of energy he had in Raleigh. That’s going to mean delegating some work to others in the administration.
BellyCat
@Mike E: Is that directed at me? If so, not what I stated nor meant to imply.
Nothing is above criticism. But for criticism to be valid it must be based on a reasonable amount of evidence.
Geminid
@Anoniminous: The idea that the wave of immogrants from Russia in the 1980s and 90s made Israel substantially more racist and authoritarian has been repeated so much people think it’s true, but it’s not. At least, social scientists surveyed these immigrants in the the early 1990s and found that they were as likely to vote for Center-Left pRaryies like Labor as for Rght parties like Likud..
Israel’s right-wing has been present since the countries founding. Menachim Begin’s Likud party brought the Right to power in the 1970s, years before the Russians showed up. He did this with the votes of a larger immigrant group, the “Mizrachi” Jews who were expelled from Middle Eastern and North African Arab nations in the 1950s.
Russian-Israeli political leaders like Avigdor Lieberman tend to be security hawks and dismissive of a possible Palestinian state, but those views are common to most of Israel’s Jewish population all across the ideological spectrum, and the Russian immigrants and their descendents are no exception.
Meretz was the closest Israel had to a Zionist peace party, but they started to decline after the suicide bombing campaign that killed over 600 Israelis in the first years of this century. Then, in the November 1, 2022 elections Meretz’s vote fell short of the 3.25% threshold and they went from 5 Knesset Members to none.
Suzanne
@MomSense:
Yeah. Thank you. I think you’re exactly right.
I have canvassed and phone-called for thousands of hours, all told, over the years. I have gone and knocked on doors of registered Democrats and found that they know very little about all sorts of things. We need their votes. We need to turn them out. We need their confidence.
Over on Political Wire, Goddard posted this:
It does not matter what anyone posting on Balloon Juice thinks about what should matter. Our votes are locked in. This is the hurdle that is in front of us.
trnc
@Cacti:
I have totally missed that quote. Please link to source.
MomSense
@trnc:
In 2020 the campaigning was curtailed by the pandemic. If we have a regular campaign season he is going to have to do multiple campaign appearances per day plus his day job.
I don’t think trump is capable of it but if he codes during a rally I won’t shed a tear. Let’s be clear trump has no business being the nominee for president. He is unfit in every way. The GOP is too corrupt and compromised to do the right thing.
MomSense
Merde. LePen’s National Rally leads after the first round of elections.
MomSense
@Suzanne:
It’s not good. This is exactly what worries me.
Suzanne
@Subsole:
I am sick of complaints about poor moderation, quite frankly. Absolutely none of that is a surprise. We know how they work (they do not), we know Trump’s style of bullshit puke funnel. I said, and I still believe, Joe should not have put himself in a situation where he couldn’t handle it. It is the candidate’s responsibility to put themselves out there in the best possible light. Go on fucken Pod Save America and give an extended interview. Take questions from a friendly audience. Effective communication is an important part of that job. Why are we trying to pretend that it isn’t relevant?
Mike E
@BellyCat: Fair enough, though good luck on raising a reasonable bar of evidence on social media/the Internet. We live here in the Gaslight District, replete with strawmen moving the goalposts around. I try to sift past the biases but it’s helpful to remind myself the dominant state of play wherever I choose to visit.
Subsole
@MomSense:
That’s fair.
But if they are that malleable, then I think them hearing panicked calls to swap candidates is…not ideal, either. Probably more damaging than the debate performance, honestly.
Not trying to shut you up or insult you or anything. Just my .05 cents.
Bupalos
@BellyCat: There isn’t going to be one answer here, but I’d like to push back against the idea that it’s either/or with cognitive decline/cold/stutter. The reality is while he can often perform adequately, he doesn’t have extra capacity. Things are a struggle. Little things like it being late at night or being under the weather point up this lack of extra capacity as small things force thresholds to be crossed. We would expect this to be the case for anyone in Biden or Trump’s age class.
Trump has declined cognitively too, there’s no question in either case of either of these guys being able to deliver mental fastballs. Unfortunately it was already going to cut harder against the guy playing for the team that is supposed to be able to reason and make arguments as opposed to team shout-loud-and-go-back-in-time. Unfortunately this is already the primary narrative vein the opponents have been mining, that biden is a kind of propped up puppet that isn’t really able to run things. So it’s politically magnified 10X.
Also I’ll just say “cognitive decline” is not dementia, and Biden’s gradual loss of capacity to process things quickly and confidently has not affected his ability to be an effective president one bit. Indeed he’s been remarkably effective, better than Obama, better than Clinton. Being president and campaigning for president are two different things. It’s a shame that weakness in the later category is going to bleed over in this electorate into the former category. But it seems almost impossible that this not be the case, and that he can be electorally effective with the “maybe I can’t debate anymore, but I can still govern well.”
cain
@Suzanne:
100% we need to stop blaming the moderators here. They are not referees .. and never have been .
Joe made poor decisions. Now he has to figure it out.
MomSense
@Subsole:
2/3 of voters in the Data For Progress Poll think Biden is too old. And all the other Dem candidates they polled do basically the same. Harris is the same in a head to head match up. Some with less name recognition were 2 points below Biden.
We are going to see the polling adjust for the debate over the next few days.
cain
@Geminid:
Thanks for putting this up. I know I personally needed to read it.
Subsole
@Suzanne:
Those are entirely valid criticisms I agree with.
Again, and maybe I should have emphasized this on my list, the guy needs to fire whoever prepped him. He was trying to give facts and figs and that is not what these are for. They are for drawing blood. And I think Joe can draw blood. Let him get his Irish up, for God’s sake.
I put it this way to some coworkers. Listening to Joe was kind of like listening to your kindly grampa after he’d had a bit much. Boring, but pleasant.
Listening to Trump is like being at a party and getting cornered by the loudest, nastiest, sloppiest drunken loudmouth asshole in the building – and you are stone cold sober.
The guy is just viscerally unlikable. Highlight that. I mean, his followers want to be him, right? I wanted to be Joe when he told the guy off.
Haven’t we all had that one loudmouth asshole we’ve wanted to tell off in our lives? (Leaving that one out over the plate for Cacti…)
Well, vote Joe. Vote Joe and punch a bully.
Also, Dobbs. I work with a lot of women, and a lot of mothers, and they all understand what not getting ahold of birth control means. They know abortion bans and what that means. They also understand what banning no fault divorce means.
These women may not like Liberals, but they are intelligent professionals and they do not want to be property. I think a lot of the dialogue outside here just takes their continuing anger for granted.
Bupalos
I agree with this 100%. I don’t think anyone in a public capacity should be openly calling for Biden to retire. The furthest it’s responsible to go in that regard is to say something like “if Joe huddles with the campaign and they all feel he doesn’t give us the best chance, then I’m sure they’ll go in a different direction. I hope and expect they’d be responsible with that…”
Subsole
@Bupalos:
Yeah. Totally. For us nobodies here? Fine.
For someone who actually can get in front of a microphone? Utter fucking malpractice.
Geminid
@trnc: My take on the debate is that this election is like a Decathlon, and the debate was one event, like a 400 meter run where Joe Biden stumbled out of the starting blocks and Trump got out to a lead in the first 100 meters. But by the end, Biden was closing and running steadily while Trump was red-faced and cramping
As in a Decathlon competition, the two runners both won points in the larger contest; it was not winner take all.
When I look at the other events, I still like what I see. We’re staying even in the Fundraising Shotput series, and the national and state parties are sailing over the Organizational Hurdles. And the campaign, its surrogates and the rank and file are scoring well in the Social Media Javelin Throw.
I think that by November, Joe Biden will have made up the points he lost Thursday night and more. Then it will come down to the Get Out The Vote High Jump, and I believe that could be our strongest event.
Suzanne
@Subsole:
I agree with this.
I want to be clear….. at this point, I don’t know if there’s any good option. Biden staying on the ticket may well be the best way to proceed. What I object to, though, is two-fold: first, I have a monstrous issue with the fact that people of good faith who express extreme concern about this situation get told that they’re bad and wrong, that they “hate old people” or “aren’t listening to Black women”. Secondly, it is good to examine potential fuck-ups! It is good to learn from errors, so you can avoid them in the future!
The best scenario I can think of would have been for Joe, privately, to have decided not to run again, and to spend that time raising Kamala’s profile. Going out and doing interviews and talking her up. Emphasize her leadership and her readiness. Then announce, with enough time that primaries can be held, that you’re going to end your career on a positive note and that there is a whole bench of talent who can continue the Biden legacy. In short…. make a succession plan before circumstances make that plan for you. Show steadiness and continuity.
Cacti
@Subsole: I’m not entirely sure what you’re babbling about at this point, but modern Zionism is and remains a settler colonial project. Theodor Herzl described it as such in his own writings.
Geminid
@Cacti: So what? We Americans live in the biggest and most successful settler colonial project in the history of the world. And Europeans never lived in North America until 500 years ago, while Jewish people have lived in what is now Israel for 3,000 years at least.
E.
I am currently canvassing 20 hours per week for a local candidate and let me tell you it is absolutely amazing what people don’t know about voting. Younger kids voting for maybe the first time and not knowing the branches of government isn’t even a minor taste of what they don’t know. And these are people who approach me at events and ask how they can help. It has altered my relationship to life. People are way less educated on our government than I previously thought, by a mile.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@E.: Welcome to the results of 2+ generations of the GOP War on Education, aided and abetted by free market liberals and such grift like the charter school movement.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2015/08/09/no-one-could-have-predicted-schoolteacher-edition/#comments
It was Garrison Keillor (I know, I know) who said something years ago, in effect:
“If you attack public schools, you are attacking the mortar that holds western civilization together. This means you are not a conservative, you are a vandal”.
Sigh.
Suzanne
@E.: Yeah. It’s staggering. And we have to get those people’s votes.
schrodingers_cat
@BellyCat: Fuck off.
Subsole
@Cacti:
You mentioned people of German and American extraction as colonizers. You left off the fact they were also Jewish.
As is, it read to me as if the fact they were born outside of Israel makes them less Jewish, or somehow makes their very real identity as Jewish less important. They were German Jews, so they’re not really Jews.
Which would be just about as insulting as saying the Palestinians don’t deserve to live there because many of them immigrated from Egypt.
Is that clear enough for you?
WaterGirl
@E.: Thank you for doing all the work!
206inKY
Gen Z:
-Way lower violent crime than boomers at their age
-Not responsible for SCOTUS
-Most directly impacted by Dobbs
-Not visibly disoriented on stage while debating an openly fascist candidate threatening to dismantle American democracy
-Favored Biden by 20 points in 2020
-Not the problem
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/06/30/behind-bidens-2020-victory/
Cacti
@Subsole: I’m sorry if I was unclear. I think the idea that generational residents of Europe and North America having a proprietary right to the Levant because some of their ancestors may have lived there two millennia ago is risible and ridiculous. It’s also 100 percent of the source of the problems there today.
WaterGirl
@206inKY: Thanks for sticking up for Gen-Z.
As i said, we could easily substitute “the media” for Gen-Z in the tweet and it would all be just as true.
UncleEbeneezer
Trump is openly calling people “Palestinian” as an insult and has also threatened to treat Gaza Protestors like terrorists. Anyone who thinks Trump can’t be worse on Gaza isn’t operating in reality If Trump wins, America won’t even push for your Cease Fire and any hope of a Palestinian state could be gone forever.
Cacti
@UncleEbeneezer: Biden 2024: A kinder, gentler Palestinian genocide.
Geminid
Israeli journalist Noga Tarnopolsky posted results from a recent survey of Israelis. The question was:
On the question, Should there be a national Commission of Inquiry to examine the October 7 debacle, the results were 85% in favor and 6% against.
These results are not consequential in themselves, but they indicate that Netanyahu has not recovered from the massive hit to his reputation on October 7. Reports are that hlNetanyahu was in a state of shock for a week or more, and that was one reason members of his own Likud party helped force him into an emergency government with Benny Gantz.
“Bibi” bounced back though, and soon began industriously working to salvage his domestic political position. His recent show of “standing up to the Americans:” was part of this campaign, so are his efforts to divide and polarize Israelis to benefit. But nothing Netanyahu has done has worked. He has succeede in polarizing Israelis, but not the way he hoped.
Right now, all the PM can hope for is to keep his 4-party coalition and its 64-56 majority from imploding before sundown Friday. Next week he’ll start all over again. If he can make through that week and the next two, he’ll get a respite because the Knesset will adjourn for its summer break July 28. But this is just looking at the political sphere, and there will be plenty going on independently of Netanyahu’s career.
BellyCat
@Bupalos: Agree with you entirely. Where Biden truly failed is that he let his debate prep team override his own sensibilities. Trying to recite myriad facts about what he’s done with a time clock running?!?! Getthefuckouttahere…. Joe should have known that fence-sitters wanted to know what he was GOING TO DO to improve their lives further AND for Joe to be Joe and point out the dangers and resulting harm if Trump is elected.
Angry Joe is the Best Joe. He could have and should have carved Trump to pieces. But he let his debate prep people lead him into the trap Trump had set.
WaterGirl
@Cacti: I call bullshit on that.
BellyCat
@schrodingers_cat: I have no animus towards you and welcome your positive contributions when and if you decide to positively contribute to the discussions here — especially if you do so without playing the “this-is-an-unsafe-space” race-card and “WaterGirl is a bully” (and seemingly me, as well now) whenever you get pushback for being a bit of a dick to others you disagree with.
Namaste 🙏
TheTruffle
@Cacti: Over half if Israeli Jews are Mizrahim. They are from the Middle East and North Africa–not Europe or the US. In lot of cases, Mizrahim were thrown out of their countries of origin, which is how they wound up in Israel.
Geminid
@TheTruffle: The origin of the Askkenazi people is a matter of hot debate on social media. They are typically said to be descended from the Khazars of Central Adia. Personally, I don’t think this really matters, but I had to laugh at a Turkish guy’s analysis:
I thought this was a very Turkish take on the matter..
Jinchi
@206inKY: Gen Z is unfortunately one of the favorite scapegoats of this little community, no matter how much the actual data stacks up in their favor.
Geminid
@Jinchi: Look at the bright side. We Boomers used to just ignore Generation Z.
Geminid
@Geminid: That should have read, “….We Boomers used to just ignore Generation X.”
I guess I kinda proved my point.
LanceThruster
Caitlin Johnstone and Max Blumenthal are two that I consider as seeing the situation clearly. It was the work of Blumenthal and Aaron Maté of The Grayzone that debunked the NYT front page rape story. The MSM have printed Israeli hasbara as provided unchallenged. From the start it was “Rape of Belgium” level propaganda with many of the most outrageous claims being repeated even after being debunked.
When Biden stated he’d seen the pictures of the 40 beheaded babies himself, his press office had to walk that back. How do you explain away a statement like that? Misremembered? Was told about it and added his own embellishments? Lied for the cause?
How many times has the State Department been asked by journalists about IDF actions that appear to be war crimes and were told Israel was investigating and they were waiting for them to get back to them? The later press briefings where it’s asked if they have play out like dark comedies where it’s clear the spokesperson is lying as fast as they can as they try to deflect with the most ludicrous spin.
If arms shipments were broken down into small enough groupings in order to bypass the Leahy Law, does that indicate a concern that such scrutiny would confirm that these weapons and munitions were being used in violation of human rights which would require real time monitoring before any shipments could resume?
Caitlin wrote a piece about how Biden could stop the carnage with a single phone call. I agree with her. I think despite the gaslighting that most people understand that. What it takes is courage to weather the outrage and repercussions from the donor class. The temporary dock is a farce as well. It’s a stalling tactic to give the appearance of taking action, as were the deadly parachute food drops.
This is our nation being being subjected to a real world Milgram Experiment. And the people on the right side of history are being demonized as being hopelessly ignorant and that this ongoing genocide must be supported because [reasons]. It should be encouraging that so many have come to the conclusion that that is a bridge too far.
strange visitor (from another planet)
once more for the cheap seats:
biden cuts off israel, guaranteed, there will be a larger war in the ME, but more importantly for all of you fucking political savants, he will lose NYS. he loses ny, he loses the white house and all the free palestinians can be as free as they fucking want on the radioactive glass that will be what’s left of the gaza strip after clownigula nukes the fucking place.
No One You Know
@Subsole: I want to give this comment roses and take it to dinner.
No One You Know
@hrprogressive: Late to the party, as always….!
I hope you don’t mind if I copy large parts of your statement to forward to some I know. This is beautifully concise and I can say, “See? It’s not just me. Or you, either.”
It’ll work better than the comparison to what was being tried in the House on Pelosi. A constitutional crisis is not an opportunity to burnish a resume. We need people who know the rules… and know when new ones must be crafted. And how to sell them.
YY_Sima Qian
@strange visitor (from another planet): Maybe a dead thread, but there is a wide range of options between giving everything Bibi asks for & still gets stabbed in the back, versus cutting Israel off completely.
Why would Biden lose NYS if he decides to exercise the US’ immense leverage over Israel of rein in Israel’s criminal conduct in Gaza, hold the Israel government & IDF units to account for their criminal conduct in Gaza, or at least not allow the US to be come directly complicit in these crimes? Are you saying that there is a significant number of Jewish Americans in NYS whose only loyalty is tribal allegiance to Israel (& an unvarnished Herrenvolk reactionary Israel at that), rather than a commitment to liberal democracy in America, who will usher in a Trump return & solidify R’s hold on power just because Biden refuses to go along w/ criminal Israeli policies & conduct in Gaza, crimes that some Israeli politicians & members of the IDF are quite happy to broadcast for all to see on MSM & social media? Are these supposed single issue voters/donors really the kind of allies anyone wants in the anti-Fascist coalition in America, since you imply they prioritize support for a Fascist foreign government over defeating Fascists at home?
Lots of comments here punching Arab/Muslim Americans who threaten to walk because of Biden’s policies toward Israel-Palestine as self-destructive if such actions facilitate a Trump victory, & they are right on the substance. OTOH, I asked why is there no exasperation & fulmination toward the select Jewish donors/power brokers who threaten to walk if Biden does not tightly embrace the reactionary government in Israel & aid the latter’s criminal conduct in Gaza, even if walking facilitates a Trump victory even more assuredly than Arab/Muslim American voters staying home, & it’s crickets. Don’t these donors have agency, too? Don’t they realize the danger to Jewish Americans if Trump brings even more Herrenvolk Fascists to his Administration this time, & is even less constrained the 2nd go around by the “adults in the room”?
strange visitor (from another planet)
@YY_Sima Qian: yeah- no i’m responding to the loud advocates here who are, in fact, calling for israel to be cut off completely. some here are advocating for the state to be fucking expunged.
cutting off israel is a fucking stupid idea. that will not sit well with a lot of red-sea pedestrians, (the majority of whom live in nys) and if what i suspect comes next, which is a larger regional war as the enemies of the state move to destroy it in its weakened, over-extended posture, then yah.
biden loses the support of the jewish community. it’s a no- brainer. and he should.
you wanna do nuance? i dunno if some of the braying jackals can HANDLE nuance.
YY_Sima Qian
@strange visitor (from another planet): Thanks for the clarification. But if we can’t do nuance, there is no point to the conversation, it wouldn’t even be a conversation.
strange visitor (from another planet)
but yeah. thanks for dusting off the dual-loyalty trope. funny how it’s never applied to the “arab-americans”.
most jews are loyal fucking democrats. we don’t maintain netanyahu or his government because we’re, you know, american fucking citizens.
goddamn.
strange visitor (from another planet)
@YY_Sima Qian: if they were asked, i bet most jews would’ve wanted a mission directly focused on hostage rescue. smashing hamas could’ve come later with targeted assassinations.
bibi and his brood are war criminals. using AI to “find” hamas members is absurd. IDF soldiers who are committing crimes should face the consequences.
that being said, once the hostages would be returned, hamas and its leadership should be fucking obliterated post-haste.
YY_Sima Qian
@strange visitor (from another planet): There are Jewish D donors on the record claiming their single biggest issue is support for Israel, regardless of the kind of government Israel has & regardless what it does. (Then there is the modern AIPAC.) They themselves are playing to the dangerous stereotype. No Arab or Muslim American I am aware of is asking Biden to embrace Hamas or Hezbollah.
I’d say there would be a lot less criticism of the Biden Administration if it has not been bending over backward fast tracking munitions to Israel (while displaying less urgency on aid to Ukraine), despite it being obvious that the IDF will employ these weapons w/ minimal thought on “collateral damage”. The Biden State Department has spiked its internal report to avoid sanctioning IDF units caught committing war crimes.
Biden doesn’t need to cut off Israel completely, he can start w/ following existing US law on not providing arms to IDF units credibly accused of war crimes.