Writing for Haaretz, former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak says his country’s democracy is collapsing and it has a short window to act before all is lost:
Opinion | Israel Is Becoming a Pariah State. We Need Massive Nonviolent Civil Disobedience Until Netanyahu Is Ousted
There can be no compromise between the destroyers of Israel and its defenders. The only course of action that could still save the country from becoming democracy’s corpse is a total shutdown of the country until the Netanyahu government is replaced or the prime minister resigns
This is an emergency call asking people to courageously confront reality and take action to stop the landslide. The Israel of the Declaration of Independence and the Zionist vision is collapsing…
To survive, (Netanyahu) is striving to turn Israel into a dictatorship, in part by appointing yes-men to head the attorney general’s office and the Shin Bet security service, while subjugating the Supreme Court. Nothing remains inconceivable, including the cancellation of free elections and violence by right-wing armed militias…
The only course of action that could still save Israel is massive nonviolent civil disobedience, with its main component a total shutdown of the country until the government is replaced or its leader resigns. Only when the entire country is paralyzed by massive strikes will these recesses be canceled, with the government yielding to the people’s will, making way for a better government…
When we have 1 million people in the streets, determined and persistent, the government will fall. It will be all of us together, in three shifts, in city squares, at road intersections, on bridges, sitting on highways, with convoys of cars moving on Jerusalem 24/7 until the government and its leader are sent packing.
I repeat my warning: Now is the time. After the Knesset and court recesses it will be too late.
Damn. I have no idea how feasible Barak’s plan is or if there’s sufficient support for a general strike of the type he describes. But it’s astonishing to read something like this from a former PM.
As a fellow resident of a degraded and failing democracy, I wish Israelis of good conscience luck in ousting their corrupt would-be dictator.
Steve LaBonne
Who coulda known that Ehud Barak was an antisemite.
Warblewarble
Unfortunately it is not only Netanyahu and his allies who are fully invested in expansionism and genocide.
Deputinize America
A big part of why we are a degraded and failing democracy is due to manipulation of our polity by the Israeli right wing in conjunction with our own right wing.
Baud
Interesting. Thanks for the post.
Chetan Murthy
@Warblewarble: I remember back around 2000, when I learned that Israel continued to steal Palestinian land and build settlements even under the Oslo Accords. So: even under Barak. I think we can probably safely say that Barak wouldn’t be trying to speedrun-ethnic-cleansing we’re seeing with Bibi, but ….. slow-motion ethnic cleansing? Yeah, I think he was just fine with that.
Which doesn’t change that, sure, democracy in Israel is important, not only for Israelis, but also b/c only under democracy is there even a -chance- of peace and justice for Palestinians.
sab
They made a wrong turn after ’73. All the Israeli lefties said so then. Choice was adjust and compromise or apartheid. And they chose apartheid. They didn’t really, but their weird parliamentary system led them there.
And here they are. A lot more American Jews have been speaking out than anyone else in American political life. People leaving the State Department. Peter Beinart’s book.
But meanwhile 2 million innocent Palestinians will be starved to death to keep Israel safe.
How can this not stoke anti-semitism? Israel is the worst danger to Jews elsewhere in the world than anything else.
Suzanne
I’m glad to read this from Barak. (There was also a good interview with Ehud Olmert on Ezra Klein’s podcast a couple of weeks ago in which he echoes many similar themes.) I hope that the people of Israel are listening.
Kirk
@sab:
It’s been my impression that after Rabin’s assassination there was never any attempt to correct that turn.
trollhattan
I’ve heard several Ehud Barak interviews recently on BBC and he’s absolutely hammer and tongs against Bibi and his coalition. IDK if he has any sway these days but it’s a refreshing voice in the wilderness.
Marc
That was precisely why Rabin was assassinated.
trollhattan
@Kirk:
Rabin’s assassination was to the two-state solution what Lincoln’s was to Reconstruction.
🐾BillinGlendaleCA
@Chetan Murthy: So you’re saying that the views and policies that someone had a quarter of a century ago are the same as the ones that they hold now? I know that my views on a lot of things have changed over the last quarter of a century.
Suzanne
@Marc: @trollhattan: Worth reminding myself that it was, of course, a right-winger who killed Rabin.
oldster
But calling for demonstrations — that’s so shrill!
Doesn’t Barak know that this will only alienate these undecided voters at this kosher diner?
oldgold
In the 1990s a million or so Jews immigrated from the former Soviet Union to Israel.
In terms of politics, they were, for the most part, very conservative.
Their arrival has played a role in Israel’s move to the right.
Big R
Fourteen comments, two anti-semitic canards. Good to know that Balloon Juice isn’t as bad as Bluesky leftists, but shame that it’s there at all.
Ksmiami
I always said Netanyahu would destroy Israel and prove a menace to Jewish people everywhere.
Steve LaBonne
@Big R: Bugger off, troll. It’s your lot who have turned bogus accusations of antisemitism into a way of supporting genocide.
Steve LaBonne
@Ksmiami: Support for Israel among young Americans, including Jews, is in the toilet. In even the medium term that will be a catastrophe, but Bibi is very much an “après moi le déluge” guy.
trollhattan
Checks out.
mr perfect
@Big R: Fuck off.
trollhattan
World’s Smartest Man chimes in.
Geminid
@oldgold: I’ve heard this a lot–that Soviet immigrants turned Israeli politics to the right– but I’m not so sure it’s true. In the early 1990s, social scientists studied voting behavior of Soviet immigrants and found that overall, they tended to vote Center-Left. And while many of them and their descendents have moved right since, this rightward shift seems to have occurred among all groups– immigrant and “Sabra;” Azhkenazi and Misrachi; and Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox and Secular.
Another Scott
It seemed obvious to me that almost from the beginning of the invasion, the Bibi/IDF plan was to make it impossible for Palestinians to live in Gaza. First by trying to force them out into Egypt, then cutting the Strip in half, then flattening the cities, and all the rest. And now with their (and 47’s) sham “humanitarian relief” system.
Their actions have spoken loudly and clearly.
Barack’s statement is fine and correct, and I would hope that other Israeli leaders would step up, sign on, and join together to get rid of Bibi. But I fear it is either too late, or too soon. Too late in that it would have been more meaningful long ago, and Bibi and the IDF are making progress every day in their goal of making Gaza unlivable with little actual push-back from the rest of the word. Too soon in that too few in Israel seem to have enough interest in ending the policy to demand that he and they stop. Too much of the Israeli public seemingly doesn’t think that what Bibi and IDF are doing in their name is bad enough for them to get involved. I don’t know what it will take for them to change their minds and their actions.
(Obviously, the USA has problems that can be pointed to as well, but that’s not the topic of this thread.)
Peace and comfort to the innocents. Strength to those who are trying to force an end to this horrible madness.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Professor Bigfoot
@Big R: Can you tell me what are the antisemitic canards to which you refer?
Geminid
Senator Angus King put a statement today and Barak Ravid reposted these excerpts:
Ohio Mom
@oldgold: Oh yes, those Russian Jews had been corrupted by growing up in the USSR. They really don’t understand, appreciate or trust democracy or the rule of law.
Big R
@Professor Bigfoot: accusations that Israel or Jews exert control over American politics, and claims that Israel is responsible for violence against diaspora Jews. Both deprive actual actors of agency in favor of assigning all agency to Jews and Israel. And in the case of the second, is a classic example of darvo – deny, attack, reverse victim and offender.
There’s plenty of room to talk about the mess that is Israeli politics, the current Israeli government, and the war or genocide in Gaza, but when you start connecting those things to events on the United States you are giving cover to antisemitism, whether you mean to or not.
I also appreciate that somebody engaged their critical thinking enough to say, hey, what are you referring to, instead of immediately assuming bad faith
Also worth noting that the folks who threw a fit over my very mild comment were not the ones who made the antisemitic comments. Hit dogs holler, etc.
Parfigliano
Israel has been a pariah state for years.
Pittsburgh Mike
It depends by what you mean by “save itself.” I suspect that Israel can indeed remain a democracy, at least with regard to citizens of Israel.
Can Israel avoid becoming a pariah state? I probably don’t have the requisite imagination, but I just can’t see it. I don’t even see a possible path that avoids essentially a worsening pariah status.
Maybe if the Palestinians had responded to the Taba negotiations in 2000 not by starting the second intifada, but by accepting a Palestinian ‘state’ with control of its own territory but not its own military, things would have been better.
Perhaps if Israel, after ending the intifada by partitioning from the Palestinians in 2008, would have bribed the latter to accept Israel’s existence as a Jewish state by providing economic assistance in the West Bank instead of establishing settlement after settlement, the two groups could have established the trust required to allow Palestinians true autonomy.
But both sides dug in. Palestinians wanted the right of return of all descendants of the ’48 refugees to Israel proper, which would have meant the end of Israel as a place where Jews had any sort of special status. The second intifada destroyed Labor, which was the only party willing to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians.
And Israel figured it could get away with establishing a de facto Greater Israel via ever expanding settlements, ignoring the indigestible core of Palestinians living under military occupation since 1967.
Extremists on both sides power the extremists on the other side. At this point, I’m not convinced that the populations of Israel or the Occupied Territories want peace, much less their leaders.
My guess is that they’re at least a generation away from anything good.
chemiclord
The only thing that annoys me is this idea that ANY U.S. President could end this in a day, whether it was Obama, Clinton, Biden, Bush, etc.
It ignores so much history with MANY presidents who were unable to do any such thing that I feel it’s a statement that could only be made in bad faith.
Israel is it’s own country with its own agency. Even if we had cut all support (and honestly, we should have), what should we have done next when the genocide didn’t stop?
Ohio Mom
@Big R: I admit, I started reading this thread with trepidation. I don’t know if I’ve ever read anything truly antisemetic here but on occasion, there have been clueless statements that have made me wince. But I haven’t winced at anything so far, so I join Professor Bigfoot in asking what bothered you?
ETA: I see your reply at 28, will be reading it.
JWR
@Another Scott:
The only heartening thing I see coming out of this are the size of the anti-Netanyahu demonstrations I see on DW News, the BBC and France 24, all of which pretty regularly begin their programs on Palestine.
Kirk
@Big R:
My reading comprehension skills must be failing. Where in the OP or the 15 posts that precede your claim are either of these claims made?
JoyceH
I’ll admit that I haven’t steeped myself in the news on this, but my understanding is that Netanyahu claims he’s not interested in negotiating a cease fire with Hamas because he intends to defeat Hamas militarily. But what I’m not seeing is Israeli efforts to defeat Hamas. Opening fire on a food line isn’t exactly a standard war tactic.
MisterForkbeard
@Ohio Mom: His response is basically nonsense. “You’re not allowed to say Israel has any influence on US politics” is such a weirdass statement. Israel (like every other country in the world) would love to drive US policy. Israel also has protected status and in some cases absolutely can drive the US to make changes, particularly under Trump where he basically just told them to go do whatever they wanted to the icky muslims.
Even though I’ve been mostly lurking here since the election, this guy is regularly just here to stir shit up and be an asshole. I’d just leave him alone and ignore him.
Big R
@Kirk: okay, with the understanding that the point of a dog whistle is that normies can’t hear it and victims sound crazy when we point it out, and further with the understanding that normies spread dog whistles unintentionally, because see above:
The first one is from Deputinize America when they say that the Israeli right wing has corroded American democracy, in conjunction with the American right wing. I promise, Israel didn’t have to do a damn thing to achieve that effect. The American right wing did it all on its own
The second is from sab when they say Israel is the greatest danger to Jews worldwide. No, the greatest danger to Jews worldwide is antisemitic stochastic terrorists who use Israel as an excuse to engage in the violence they wanted to do anyway, and that danger is exacerbated by folks who take their excuses at face value, spreading dog whistle rhetoric.
Ramona
@chemiclord: Backed the votes in the UN?
Geminid
@Parfigliano: I don’t think so. There certainly are people who believed for years that Israel should be a pariah state, but it took these past 20 months of warfare to bring that attitude into the mainstream, and I’m not sure it’s a majority sentiment even now.
And when it comes governments, most of them tolerated Israel’s war policies right up to this month. As of now, no European nation has sanctioned Israel, much less broken off relations. Last October, the British pulled sanctions waivers from 30 items of military equipment– but they left 300 in place.
Spain is somewhat exceptional in that it banned imports from the occupied West Bank, but they still allow imports from Isrsel proper.
MisterForkbeard
@Kirk: Don’t engage with him.
I think someone basically said that Israel represents Jews in the minds of a lot of people, and when Israel acts insane it’s going to drive anti-semitism because they’ll be linked.
This guy wants to pretend that means people are saying that this means Israel is responsible for all violence against Jews.
Ignore the troll and go do something more productive with your time, like reading comments about pie on a top 10,000 blog.
Tehanu
@Big R: <blockquote>when you start connecting those things to events on the United States you are giving cover to antisemitism, whether you mean to or not.</blockquote>
So are you saying that nothing Israel does can legitimately be connected to events in the US? “…manipulation of our polity” is not “control over American politics.” And the idea that people might commit anti-Semitic acts against diaspora Jews because they are angry at Israel is not the same as saying that Israel is responsible for those acts. You seem inclined to read more into the comments than what the commenters actually said — or meant.
@MisterForkbeard: Agree with what you said about this guy deliberately misreading.
Bill Arnold
@Geminid:
The closest I know to a study of that is Old Values in the New Homeland: Political Attitudes of FSU Immigrants in Israel (2010, Michael Philippov and Anna Knafelman (Department of Political Sciences, Hebrew University of Jerusalem; and Israeli Democracy Institute))
Paywalled. (I have a (legal) copy; if anyone wants it, ask.)
Google scholar finds it is also a chapter in a 2012 book, Russian Israelis – Social Mobility, Politics and Culture
kindness
I remember when Joe Biden made an attempt to build a pier in Gaza to bring goods in. The attempt failed because our military wasn’t allowed to use it’s best tech. It was a good idea. More than likely, had the effort worked, the Israeli military would have dropped morters on it.
Geminid
@JoyceH: The IDF is trying to root out Hamas, and they’ve lost well over 400 KIA in Gaza towards that end. Hamas is fighting back, and they release the videos to prove it. The problem is that Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the militias are well-armed, and they prepared for this war for over a decade, digging hundreds of kilometers of tunnels and stockpiling munitions. And they regard regard any and all civilians as expendable, and they’ve said as much.
Kirk
@Big R: Nope, not going to agree.
re Deputinize’s statement, the simple response is, “Por que no los dos?” Your claim is that RW American behavior precludes collusion with RW Israeli. I think that’s simplistic. Let me clarify with a question. Because Israel’s RW behaves the way it does, is America’s RW support and participation non-existent?
re Sab’s remark: I can see your position. However, I read Sab’s point as “all attempts to counter antisemitic activity (your valid point) are undermined by Israel’s behavior”. That means from my (admittedly outside) point of view, it’s the same type of claim as those within the US arguing whether the racism, misogyny, or autocracy are the greatest threats by saying the other threats are dog whistle distractions.
trollhattan
@Geminid: Just 400? Startlingly low considering 2+ years.
Baud
@trollhattan:
2 years this October.
Ohio Mom
@Big R: Well, there is an American Jewish lobby, which sees allies in right-wing Evanglicals who advocate for Israel, all the better to bring about their cherished end of days. And those Evanglicals are a powerful group, else Roe would still stand.
I see your point about the thin line between recognizing the groups that do lobby the U.S. government to advocate for Israeli interests (which is not any different from any other special interest group, e.g., corn farmers), and paranoid declarations that a cabal of Jews is directing and distorting U.S. politics. Those declarations which are definitely antisemetic, as well as ridiculous.
The responsibility and blame for antisemetic actions, needless to say, rests with those committing the antisemetic acts. Trump is certainly egging antisemites on though.
Only half of the world’s Jews live in Israel and I’ve long had the feeling that Israel doesn’t see us in the Disapora as counting or mattering.
I have been saying for many years that American Jews’ love affair with Israel would end up rendering American Judaism into two groups; sometimes it feels to me that the organized Jewish community has made itself into the Israel auxiliary, rather than focusing on what it means to be a contemporary American Jew. As a result, those of us who don’t find meaning in being second fiddle to Israel don’t find much that is compelling in the Jewish community. I didn’t expect to live to see the day however.
Bill Arnold
@trollhattan:
And >50K Gaza civilians dead (including the missing).
> 100 to 1. (mumble mumble anti-partisan tactics Europe WWII 10 to 1)
Kirk
@MisterForkbeard: He might be.
But I prefer to engage for a bit before deciding to enjoy pie. I’ve done it with others – Brick Oven Bill comes to mind. It … I’ve been an idiot myself, I’ve been a stupidly blind opinionated asshole with hyperbolic absolutist phrasing. Some folk here (and elsewhere) gave me the chance to do better. By engaging, I pass that forward.
Not indefinitely, mind. I’m not a saint and I there are things I want to do besides argue with someone on the internet. But for a bit, sure.
schrodingers_cat
I love how the British imported castiest slurs in English are thriving. case in point pariah and thug.
Socolofi
Bibi is one of the world’s truly actual dangerous leaders.
Most authoritarians, and Trump is in this bucket, are after basic things. Money and women. Power is a means to an end (which is, keeping the money and women). This is why the South Park takedown was so perfect – Trump really is our Saddam, complete with cheesy gold everywhere.
Bibi wants the land. Simple as that. And he doesn’t want it for himself, he wants it for Israel. He’s on a mission, and there are a lot of Israelis with him on that mission. And to make matters worse, a lot of his opposition wouldn’t mind having the land. And he’s realized since October 7 that he can do whatever he wants do take it, and he’s doing just that.
Every Middle Eastern country has decided that the Palestinians are better as martyrs – children dying of starvation, fights over food, the occasional intifada – than trying to solve the problem. OPEC could declare an embargo – that’d get people’s attention fast. Iran could invite all the Palestinians to Iran & offer them citizenship – hell, Israel and the US would probably pay for that. Or Saudi Arabia could. Nobody has, and nobody will. Western nations won’t lift much of a finger either. And everyone else is content for this to be not their problem.
The only thing that could save the Palestinians are some Israeli leaders with a conscience. Problem is, there just aren’t enough of them.
So Gaza is leveled, there’s a bunch of Palestinians refugee / concentration camps scattered under heavy guard to prevent Hamas from doing anything, Israel is a pariah, sorta, for, I dunno. 20 years? Eventually a new government comes to power, says sorry, and the countries of the world move on.
If Bibi were another run-of-the-mill authoritarian all about the grift, I could hope that people eventually have enough and do something about it. But no, he’s more about getting to a solution for Israel with Palestine – a totally horrible one, but a solution – and so I think we can do nothing but stare at the horror.
Ohio Mom
@Kirk: Brick Oven Bill, that’s a blast from the past. I’d forgetten all about him.
Eolirin
@Big R: Israel’s actions make us less safe everywhere by playing into existing antisemitic dynamics. Israel’s government, in perpetuating a genocide, does bring harm to us as a community.
Shande for di goyim is in our lexicon for a goddamn reason. We know how this works. Netanyahu knows how this works. Antisemitism is real and powerful and our community understands that our actions take place in a world where those forces exist and cannot be separated from them. We are held to different standards and we suffer communal consequences even if we shouldn’t.
And when a member of our community starts stepping this far out of line they are legitimately a threat to our continued existence and we need to do what we can to stop them from continuing because it will destroy us.
That background antisemitism is pervasive and we will all be lumped together and when a member of our community is doing something this indefensible we will all burn for it and the fact that it’s antisemitic to lump us together like that isn’t going to stop everyone from doing it. You yourself are doing it.
The outcomes here are predictable. They’ve been happening for hundreds and hundreds of years. It’s in so many of our stories and so much of our history. It’s not wrong to say Israel’s governnent is currently making every diaspora Jew less safe. Hell, they’re making Israelis less safe too, and have been for a long time.
And it doesn’t take away from the culpability of everyone who acts antisemitically, especially the ones who are engaging in violence, to say that either. They can also be responsible for their actions at the same time.
That being said, we can make that argument in a way that non-Jews probably shouldn’t.
And as a side note, by the insinuation of darvo and suggesting that blaming Netanyahu’s government for attacks on diaspora Jews shifts blame to victims, you yourself are conflating the diaspora Jews with the state of Israel. Which itself is a very common antisemitic trope!
We’re not the same groups of Jews. Israel’s government’s actions have at times, historically, been deliberately intended to make diaspora Jews less safe. Those are attacks on us. Israel can also attack us despite all of us being Jews. We are allowed to recognize that and call that out. And Israel’s government is in fact responsible for what they’re doing, and the way those actions are making everything worse is also on them even if it’s also the fault of everyone who is antisemitic and who is willing to perpetrate violence.
Many parties can hold culpability in this situation simultaneously.
Another Scott
@JoyceH: @Geminid:
I’m (an anonymous internet rando) with JoyceH on this.
In my view, the problem is that Bibi and the IDF have stated impossible, maximalist goals and have no desire to ever end the war.
PBS.org (from May 13, 2025):
Hamas has no incentive to negotiate given language like that (and Bibi’s actions to date). Bibi has no incentive to negotiate (given his legal jeopardy and lack of effective pushback against his maximalist wishes), and has effectively said that negotiations are meaningless – he’s going to keep the war going no matter what.
Under Bibi’s terms, the war will end when Hamas is “destroyed”. However, as we know, Hamas is a political organization with substantial support. Anyone could potentially be, or become in the future, a member or supporter of Hamas. Bibi’s ultimatums mean that he aims to continue the war, no matter what. And in doing so, he’s ensuring that there’s nobody sensible to negotiate with to put an end to the wars and incriminations and arguments and suffering and dangers to innocents.
Grr…
My $0.02.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Ohio Mom
@Eolirin: If I could like this comment, I would. Numerous times.
Geminid
@trollhattan: I think the IDF hit 400 KIA late this winter, so they’re probably pushing 500 now.
As far as the ground war goes, the IDF has basically conducted a series of raids the last 19 months, and not a continuous battle. With the exception of the Phillipi corridor along the Egyptian border and the Netzarim corridor bisecting the Gaza strip, the IDF hasen’t tried to hold territory because they don’t want to get into a war of attrition, where Hamas and its allies pick them off one at a time with snipers or 5 at a time with IEDs.
The Gaza Strip looks small on a map, but’s still 150 square miles in area. That’s twice the size of Brooklyn, and with 80% of Brooklyn’s population. Around half is– or was– urban and that makes for a more difficult fighting environment, as the US found out in Iraq.
But I only mentioned the 400 KIA to counter the prevalent notion that this is simply a war on civilians and not a war against a very tenacious enemy.
Kirk
@Ohio Mom: Yeah. I’d been looking at pizza crust recipes before posting so he just popped into mind.
Some things never go away – dammit.
NobodySpecial
Meh, I’ve heard for a decade plus that Bibi is this close to being thrown in jail along with his wife for all the criminal shit they’ve done, and yet, the Israeli electorate keeps putting this schmuck back in power with weirder and more rabid coalitions. If we can blame the American electorate for all the shit Trump pulls, then we can absolutely blame the Israeli electorate for the current situation in Gaza.
It wasn’t successive US governments that forced Israeli right wingers to shoot their own PM, or finance Hamas to weaken the PLO, or any number of other things that keep making this outcome inevitable. At this point, I can’t be bothered with people trying to blame us because they got blood on their hands. Pull all the military funding and let them find someone else to help them do their genocide.
Geminid
@Another Scott: I was speaking to the commenter’s specific contention that she had not seen any efforts to defeat Hamas. My point was that the IDF had lost 400 KIA fighting Hamas, and I pointed out the problem created by Hamas’s capabilities.
But I did not say or imply that there aren’t other problems with Israel’s war strategy, because I do not believe that; I just pointed out a particular tactical one.
Mike in Pasadena
@Another Scott: The USA’s problem is not this thread, but maybe the general strike suggestion is applicable here, too. Just thinking about it, not advocating a general strike. Yet.
I realize at least 30% would not participate in a general strike, but if 40% of the population participated, it would spell lots of trouble.
Azhrie139
YY_Sima Qian
I can’t help but notice that indignation of Western governments (w/ the exception of Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Norway & Slovenia) at Israeli war crimes & crimes against humanity (& the case for genocide gets stronger day by day) only went up a couple of notches after the IDF targeted the sole Catholic church in Gaza & killed a few Christians. Even then, the response has been largely moral grandstanding (such as recognizing Palestine as a state) than actual pressure on Israel.
The entire world: Western countries, Sunni Arab states, regional middle powers (such as Türkiye & Iran), the great powers (the US, the PRC, etc.), & much of the Global South, will look back at the fecklessness & apathy to the Israeli war of vengeance in Gaza in shame.
YY_Sima Qian
@Eolirin: Greatly appreciate your comment.
YY_Sima Qian
One more step toward pariah status:
Jim Appleton
Can’t believe I’m the first to note that, with a few edits and emphasis on different circumstances (media in particular, and general normie awareness among the public), substituting “the US” for “Israel” and “Shithead” for “Netanyahu” is a close match.
Not perfect, but close.
ETA, not to detract or distract from the importance of BC’s theme.
chemiclord
@YY_Sima Qian: Western governments really want Jews to stay “over there.” Hell, a big part of the reason Israel exists at all because the West agreed with Germany that there was a “Jew Problem.” They just weren’t entirely on board with Germany’s Final Solution.
Betty
@oldgold: Orthodox Jews from New York contributed to that move to the right.
Citizen Alan
@schrodingers_cat: I was this many days old when I finally learned the origin of the word “pariah.” I’d always assumed it was Greek for some reason. Of course, I was in my 40s when I learned that it was racist to say someone “welshed on a bet,” so that’s probably par for the course.
Martin
@sab: I think it was fundamentally flawed. How do you operate a democracy with a charter that guarantees Jewish rule other than to give Jews a privileged class? Yes, providence may be such that the population and the individuals who choose to run are always dominantly Jewish for quite some time, but sooner or later, a day will come when it is not, and the state will need to enact measures to secure it, and then democracy is out the window.
That’s not an argument that Jews don’t deserve to live safely, just that the original concept has a fundamental flaw that inevitably leads here.
And I will again note that I think Republicans support Israel not because they give a shit about Jewish people but because they think the concept in Israel is a good one and should be repeated in the US – with white christians as the privileged class, and otherwise just patterning everything else off of what Israel does down to settlements in Canada and Greenland, and militarized checkpoints along the southern border, and so on. Like it maps pretty darn cleanly, even down to Trumps desire for a Golden Dome.
Martin
I’m going to give him a bit of cover on this (even though I think his approach here is to be a troll). US right wing politics are free to borrow shitty ideas from every corner of the planet, but they do so willingly. If they want to genocide latinos citing Israels effort to genocide Palestinians here, we don’t need to believe their excuse. They do it because they want to, not because Israel made them.
His other argument doesn’t hold though. It’s not to blame Israel for antisemitic attacks on American Jews. The fundamental problem here is that the attacker was antisemitic and is Israel helping to defuse antisemitism or to inflame it? Of course the antisemitic attacker will see an attack on an American Jew as a punishment against Israel – they’re antisemitic. We’re not drawing that relationship, the attacker is.
So I don’t understand what Israel is hoping to achieve here for Jews broadly. It seems to me they are making a choice between protection of state and religion and choosing state – and isn’t that part of the criticism of the state by the various Orthodox Jews inside of Israel that the secular nature of the state will always force it to make that choice in that way?
Martin
@Geminid: I think the problem is that Hamas will never be defeated because it is a resistance movement and Israel knows this and has admitted this, and continues to attack civilians under cover of a mission they’ve admitted will never succeed. It’s not unlike Russia’s ongoing fight to root out Nazis in Ukraine, except we are more disposed to believe Israel isn’t lying to us than we are Russia.
Martin
@chemiclord: Yeah, I think a lot of blame needs to be laid on the feet of western nations when the question of ‘where can we resettle Jews so they’ll feel safe’ immediately decided that ‘inside our own countries’ was the wrong answer.
DAstronomer
@Martin: I heartily agree. The tension of opposites that exists when you have a privileged class, whether Israeli Jew or American white Evangelical, in a “democracy” (representative republic, parliamentary republic, whatever, even constitutional monarchy) is that the out-groups gaining power threatens the entire power structure of the privileged class.
I think a lot of the pushback in the US with the rise of Trump is due to the (inevitable and needed!) dethroning of white males, although anyone has been through any rural area knows that it’s not particularly great for most white folks either.
The tension that exists with Israel privledging Jews while simultaneously supposedly having a full democracy that includes Arab Israelis (who are, by a small twist of fate in 1948, Israeli instead of Palestinian) is enormous, especially with the breathtakingly absurd expansion of settlements into occupied territory. It’s very difficult to see how such a country can continue to exist without slipping into a police state or despotism, or, as we are seeing live on TV, genocide.
I’m kind of with Cole on this one. It feels hopeless and something that won’t be solved in my lifetime. I hate it, and I wish that people could just fucking get along without killing each other.
Geminid
@Martin: Hamas would have been out of Gaza a year ago if this Israeli government wasn’t so stupid The Saudis had the right idea back in February of 2023: give Hamas forces safe passage to a third country like Algeria and bring in an Arab peacekeeping force backing Palestinian security forces from Fatah, the military wing of the Palestinian authority; a four year rule by a technoctic government followed by elections; all backed by a Security Council resolution. Jordan, Egypt and the UAE all were for this plan.
It was Israel’s political echelon that would not accept this solution; the Shin Bet security agency had already said the problem of security in Gaza was not soluble without Fatah. The IDF knew it too.
Hamas is in fact a resistance movement, but it’s only strong because it resists Israelis. They rule the populace through fear. Gazans would never choose Hamas rule over rule by other Arabs.
The Saudis know this problem in a way you and I do not. They’ve watched it for decades and it affects them in a way it does not affect Americans. Theirs is still the only viable solution and we’ll see it happen sooner or later.
hotshoe
@Martin:
yes, especially the Golden-Dome envy.
Martin
@Geminid: Oh, yeah, I agree. We know Bibi wanted Hamas, because he wanted an enemy to fight, not a counterparty to negotiate with like PA. He doesn’t get Gaza and West Bank with PA – the world won’t stand for that kind of open aggression. But Hamas can be pushed to do an October 7 event and now the door is open to annexation, to ‘finishing the job’.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not blaming Bibi for Oct 7 – Hamas owns that shit, and Hamas cares fuck-all about the lives of Palestinians, but so too does Israeli leadership.
I’ve always thought that Palestine needed an international peacekeeping force but given that hundreds of UN workers have been killed by Israel in the last year, I’m not convinced that they would not attack the peacekeepers. I think Israel leadership is so close to this goal, that they obviously desperately want and have worked toward for decades, that they will not be denied it unless someone is willing to put a war with Israel on the line. I think that is a bluff that Israel will call every day of the week.
Debbie(Aussie)
Not once in that entire opinion piece did Barack mention the starving Gazans or the daily murders being committed against them.
Geminid
@Martin: This would not have a UN peacekeeping force like UNIFIL in Lebanon or the one in the Golan Heights. It would have been an Arab peacekeeping force operating under authority of a Security Council mandate. There’s a difference.
It would have been led by Emirati troops. I don’t know if you are aware of the relationship between the Israelis and the Emiratis, but my sense is the Israelis would be highly unlikely to attack Emirati troops after ageeing to them taking an intractable problem off their hands.
As for the Israelis killing “hundreds of UN employees,” the UN keeps track and I don’t think it’s hundreds.
Geminid
@Martin: Hamas wasn’t “pushed to do an October 7 event.” Netanyahu believed Hamas was deterred by Israeli air power, and he was shocked to the core when he realized that Hamas had chosen not to be deterred
Hamas launched its savage attack with the intent of provoking the savage response we’ve seen. Sinwar’s mistake was believing the Arab world would be with them, and that the Western world would turn on Israel.
Sinwar also overestimated the strength of Iran’s “Axis of Resistance” of which Hamas was a part, and the Iranians’ willingness to join a war they had enabled but did not authorize
Also, Netanyahu believed he had bought Hamas off with regular payments of Qatari money and Sinwar encouraged that belief.
El Cruzado
Honestly my view from day one is that Bibi will keep escalating as long as he doesn’t see a different, guaranteed way to stay out of jail.
His coalition partners include a lot more true believers though.
Paul in KY
@Kirk: Rabin was the last good PM they ever had. The polity never chastised or held it against Likud for basically having him assassinated.
Paul in KY
@JoyceH: He’s trying to beat ‘Future Hamas’, otherwise known as Arab children living in Gaza.
Paul in KY
@schrodingers_cat: The Thugees of Kali were not very nice people, IMO.
Paul in KY
@Socolofi: IMO, the Palestinians (in West Bank mostly) could try another tactic in their struggle. Armed resistance has been a complete failure.
Paul in KY
@Martin: I think they should have gotten Prussia. That would have been a kick in the teeth to German militarism. However, the Jewish leaders wanting a homeland, definitely wanted Jerusalem in it.
Paul in KY
@Geminid: Mr. Sinwar had not (it appears) studied the history of the region for the last 60 years, if he truly believed the ‘Arab world would be with them’. Maybe some ‘You go get em, Hamas!’, but nothing concrete.
Such has been they way since 1973.