“I know that guy kidnapped a child from an abusive parent, but he gave the kid a good life and sent her to the best schools, so maybe that’s a win in the end.”
“Yeah, I know kidnapping is bad, but some good things could come out of this. Let’s talk about that.”
“Yeah” – shoves morality aside for the moment – “but he was a bad leader.”
Really? That’s the way to look at what the U.S. did in Iran?
We are smarter than this. We are better than this.
Aren’t we?
Someone please tell me that I misread a few of the comments in the morning post.
It’s Long Past Time
WTFGhost
It’s a hard distinction to draw. This might be the chance for something good to happen, and, it’s probably not, but people seize on hope. Revolutions happen, not when oppression is bad, but when it looks like things could become better.
Trump’s actions are indefensible. But I get it if some people feel a complicated maybe-gratitude if good things happen, much like thanking a lightning strike that takes out a bad leader.
ETA: The point being, you shouldn’t feel any gratitude for the lightning strike, just for the loss of the bad leader. And yet it’s human to anthropomorphize the lightning strike, especially when it’s an orange-evilus drink filled to overflowing.
Motivated Seller
No. You don’t have to “hand it to him” for anything. Remember the dictum: “Anything Trump touches turns to shit.” Its actually true, no matter how hard The Savvy people pretend otherwise.
Jeffro
“the ends do not, in fact, justify the means”
also
“letting malicious morons play with dynamite is a bad idea”
(that second one is copyrighted; I’ll post my Venmo later)
different-church-lady
We don’t know if the kid’s gonna have a good life.
schrodingers_cat
I haven’t seen one comment praising the WH for its unilateral action on AL’s morning post. I have no idea what this post is talking about.
TurnItOffAndOnAgain
I think the folks making this argument need to take a breath, take a step back and take into consideration where this argument comes from, even if unintentionally: from the blood soaked seeds of colonialism and white saviorism.
Old School
“You misread a few of the comments in the morning post.”
I’m not a regular reader of Mangy Jay, but I think the debate over her opinions include arguments that aren’t her opinions.
different-church-lady
@Old School: Gosh, when does that ever happen?
wonkie
Trump isn’t trying to get better leadership in Iran. That is not the end of his means. He’s trying to get media coverage of himself as the Dear Leader.
Killing one leader in Iran is not going to bring about a better government. They have a bench as deep in mean old (or a bit younger) malignant crazy assholes as the Republicans. They replacement will be just as bad and so will the replacement for the replacement.
I think most of the people of the world are aware that the US has never intervened in another nation for the benefit of that nation–not since the Marshall Plan–and I am certain no one is that stupid about Trump.
These are, after all, people who live right next door to Iraq.
jonas
More like: “I know that guy kidnapped a child from an abusive parent, but he sent her to the best schools…and then the Israelis bombed it so now she’s dead.”
That’s more where we’re at here…
WaterGirl
@Old School: Maybe the conversation started with Manjy Jay, but I’m not talking about what Mangy Jay did or did not write. I haven’t even read what she wrote.
I’m talking about the discussion in the morning post, comments by BJ peeps
“Let’s look on the bright side, or let’s make lemonade out of the lemons” just doesn’t work for me when it comes to murder and destruction.
And yes, I am angry this morning, why do you ask? :-)
WTFGhost
@different-church-lady: Plus, even if the child has a nominally “good” life, it can’t justify the kidnapping. The rule of law has no meaning if you allow exceptions for retro-justification.
Republicans, on the other hand, don’t believe in the rule of law. They never have. So retro-justification makes sense for them.
Hilfy
@Old School: Who is Mangy Jay?
rk
A lot of things can be true at the same time. My daughter who is abroad said that Iranian students were happy and celebrating Khamenei’s death. They can be happy that an awful man is dead. But that doesn’t mean it was America’s job to kill him, nor does it become right even if Iran subsequently becomes a democracy ( which is not likely). A degenerate rapist will never be right about anything, nor will anything he does ever be good. That’s not how the world works.
As for the argument about kidnapping a child and giving it a good life: the ends don’t justify the means. Isn’t that something everyone knows?
Another Scott
Looking for the “bright side” seems to me to be a category error here.
We attacked Iran with Bibi because one guy – 47 – decided he wanted to on . his . own.
Our legal system says that he cannot do that. There are laws and norms and all the rest that the POTUS must follow for such actions to be legal. He did not do that.
There’s a John Quincy Adams quote (1 page PDF) from when he was Secretary of State in July 1821 that’s been going around:
(Emphasis added.)
Wise words.
47 is unleashing the whirlwind, and it will not help the cause of peace and justice under law.
Grr…
Best wishes,
Scott.
different-church-lady
@Another Scott: Hey, we had a good run.
MattF
Note that Hannah Arendt’s book On Revolution doesn’t even bother to consider the case of a political revolution instigated by external forces. It never happens. This is why, e.g., talk of ‘outside agitators’ is always an attempt to change the subject.
Old School
@Hilfy:
A commentator on Twitter. Her real name is Magdi Jacobs.
jonas
@rk: It’s entirely possible to eliminate a terrible dictator and yet have what comes next be even worse somehow. And that’s when we supposedly had vast, complicated plans to shepherd democratic regime change. We’ve decapitated Iran’s leadership and Trump’s plan is evidently just to bomb a bunch more shit to make sure the country can never recover, creating a situation ripe for civil war and chaos, and then head home.
Of course all this means is that it will probably be China who steps in with recovery aid once the dust settles and ends up bringing Iran even more closely into its orbit. Good times.
Geminid
@WaterGirl:
Nobody said this.
If I or someone else wrote something you find objectionable, feel free to quote it. But I think you shouldn’t put words in people’s mouths.
Ed. It doesn’t add to the discourse; it detracts from and creates hard feelings.
ArchTeryx
Because I am always running hopelessly behind these threads:
Bupalos: Yeah. I was subject to a full on narcissistic attack that basically was an EF5 tornado going through my life. The narcissist in question was a friend of 8 years, and suddenly did a Face-Heel-Turn on me and my group of friends. He knew every single weak spot and attacked them all. He prepared most thoroughly to make sure I was trashed right down to the foundations.
There’s really no defense. They thrive on attention and are masters at playing the victim, so any counterattack just makes them stronger. And ignoring them leaves them and their cult free to rampage through your life and destroy it. Now you combine that with the fact that the Terminally Online Left is ready at any time to form a social media lynch mob, and you have yourself a mini-Trump.
Literally, all you can do is wait for the tornado to pass, then try your best to rebuild from what little they leave behind.
The bitterest irony? They’re transmasculine. And decided to adopt the most toxic sort of masculinity possible as part of their new identity.
eclare
Wait, what?
Percysowner
I have a human face to this. One of my oldest grandson’s friends is R. R and his mother are not white and his mother talks with an accent that indicates she is from the Mideast. I have been somewhat concerned about their welfare and scan the neighborhood when I go to pick up my grandson from school and am prepared to set off my car alarm is it looks like DHS is there to “visit” We found out on Saturday that Ryan’s family is from Iran and his father is there right now. He business if in Iran, so he can’t just pick up and leave. Suddenly this has gone from a scary possibility of DHS deciding the Somalis over in Springfield can wait while they take a crack at people in Columbus, to a real worry that one of my grandson’s friends could lose a father to this insanity.
R is 8. He should not live in a world where this can happen to him. No child should. I’m not the praying type, but I am hoping as hard as I can that that family and all other families in Iran can get out of this without tragedy.
different-church-lady
@eclare:
Nominated.
Baud
Apparently, on kids shows involving vampires and other monsters, regular humans are called “normies.”
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Seconded.
Steve LaBonne
There are a lot of evil regimes in the world. Two of them are currently bombing Iran. The “evil regime” disclaimer really doesn’t do the work some people imagine it does.
japa21
I think WG may be referring to a couple comments that basically said “I can see why someone may say that this can have good consequences…” However, those same comments also went on to say “However, that doesn’t really justify…”
If you focus on the first part and ignore the second, you miss the main point.
eclare
Iran has a navy?
Timill
@eclare:
Islamic Republic of Iran Nav
Basically inshore and a bit offshore; not deep-water. Probably operates mostly in and around the Gulf and the Arabian Sea, with some in the Caspian.
Geminid
@eclare: Iran’s navy has– or had– a few old corvettes and four submarines which are also decades old. The IRGC has around 20 newer minisubs and scores of small, fast attack boats.
Paul in KY
@wonkie: It’s all about removing ‘Epstein’ from the front pages and his dipshit’s memories/subconcious.
O. Felix Culpa
@Geminid:
QFT.
@japa21:
QFT again.
Jackie
OT Great news on an otherwise crappy news day:
I’m sure FFOTUS will bomb another country in retaliation. //
zhena gogolia
@Geminid: Amen.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Thank you, Scott. It’s important.
I will front-page that later today.
WaterGirl
@Geminid: Those were all (clearly, I thought) examples of the tone I was seeing.
Offered as examples for discussion of the concept.
I ended the post up top with this: Someone please tell me that I misread a few of the comments in the morning post.
WaterGirl
@different-church-lady: done!
Kelly
Here’s some potential good news. Trump has a rash on his neck. The internet is speculating shingles. I’m friends with a shingles victim and yes I would wish it on my worst enemy.
bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mg3srg4uxc2t
ChicagoBarca
I’ve been following quite a few Iranians over the past 10 years. I’m going to assume that you’re not referring to the complexity of the Iranian perspective where there is a lot of frustration with many on the Western left and what Iranians see as a condescending attitude towards Iranians that are celebrating the death of their oppressors (or the denial of that response because it doesn’t fit their narrative) – particularly after the state killings of protesters over the last couple of months. They are clear eyed about Trump and his regime, as well as their challenges given the deep bench of the regime and the dangers of a power vacuum, et cetera. And they are saying that they find Western left lectures about these matters to be condescending, simple-minded and solipsistic. I find it helpful to hear their perspectives. Obviously, I’m absolutely against this attack and Trump and Co – but I do value the perspectives of those directly involved.
Redshift
Related, I think – I’m really annoyed by how many elected Dems begin their statements with “the ayatollah was a bad guy, but…” or “I’m not sure he’s gone, but…” I understand why they feel the need to defend against the inevitable “terrorist lover” attacks, but starting with that weakens anything else you say.
Would it be so hard to instead say “starting a war with no explanation and no plan, which endangers Americans (etc.) is bad, even if the foreign leader was a really bad guy”?
HopefullyNotCassandra
@Percysowner: no doubt!
War is bad. War steals futures. War steals our ability to perfect our Union. These are all things supported by most in this country from our founding through this president.
O. Felix Culpa
Funny how when the Rs start an illegal war, the focus becomes how the Dems are doing it Rong ™,
ETA: And nuanced analysis is panned because it isn’t rage-baity enough or something.
gene108
@schrodingers_cat:
Same here.
The fact some people acknowledge there has been a strong pro-democracy movement in Iran, which recently launched massive protests that were only stopped by when the current government murdering thousands of protestors, is not relevant to any discussion of what happens next.
No “black or brown*” nation can rebuild itself without falling into unending civil wars.
*Iranians aren’t black or brown, but because U.S. media assumes all Muslims are Arabs, they get lumped in with the brown hordes.
Steve LaBonne
@Redshift: That is what I was trying to convey in my previous comment.
Cheez Whiz
Like the best lies having a kernel of truth, looking on the bright side has an actual bright side to look on. But of course it requires ignoring the dark side, which is why there’s a bright side. Misdirection, in other words, and all it implies. Its a cousin to the mandatory “Iran’s leaders (or if you’re pressed for time, just ‘Iran’ as they’re interchangeable) are Evil and the world would be a better place without them” pathetic attempt to innoculate your argument against the “oh, so you love jihad and murdering innocent people” riposte (which is coming anyway).
But talking about bright and dark sides ignores the bigger picture. Bomb Bomb Iran has been on the table as a serious option since the Hostage Crisis (John Bolton jerks his head up as if he heard his name called) but the trigger wasn’t pulled before because NOBODY COULD PREDICT WHAT COMES NEXT, other than that it probably wasn’t good. Trump is messing with Elemental Forces here and is oblivious to them because hes Trump. Hes made it clear there is no Plan that hes aware of anyway. This realization would reduce any sane politician to a twitching wreck, but Trump is Not a Politician, hes a Celebrity. Republicans on the TV are the babbling loons trying to “explain” whats happening. The only honest one I saw was John Cornyn who simply said he has no idea whats going on. Find the bright side of that.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: I won’t speak for anyone else, but I think you may have misread mine.
Tony Jay
@japa21:
I’m pretty sure she was referring to the ones that boiled down to the 2000s era argument that the Iranian regime is such a terrible bad guy that complaining about the method and justification behind attacking it is partly besides the point, and partly deeply suspicious because oooooh, look, evil progressives and their hot-loined lust for Islamist hardmen who say nasty things about certain middle-eastern states.
Said it before, I’m sure I’ll say it again. This burning need some feel to turn everything into a stick with which to attack this mythical Islamist-Bolshevist conspiracy is beyond my capacity to understand.
lowtechcyclist
I had to get away from things a bit. Can someone explain what the hell we’re talking about? I didn’t read most of the previous threads.
George
@ArchTeryx:
Hear, hear.
As someone who also has dealt with narcissistic abuse and full-on psychopathic abuse, I think that too little time and energy have been devoted to seeing FFOTUS through those lenses. The biggest lesson I learned from my personal experience is that no one who demonstrates malignant narcissism or psychopathy should ever be trusted. Ever. The exist to manipulate and control everyone else, full stop.
Any appeal to victimhood or rationality on their part is just a tactic adopted to fulfill their goals. They will use those appeals as a way of justifying the fact that they do horrible, horrible things.
That is what I see this administration doing, and unfortunately it has its own political party filled with sycophants and flying monkeys, and it has media as well that are little more than rubber stamps for its sadism.
Geminid
@lowtechcyclist: You would have to read the morning post to see what we’re talking about.
Ed. I don’t think this argument can be explained adequately; you’ll just have to go and see if you are interested.
Miss Bianca
@ChicagoBarca: Honestly, I don’t care one flaming fart about what the *Iranians* think about the US and Israel going in and taking out their leaders. If some of them are happy about it, good for them. I can’t imagine all of them are, though.
I care considerably *more* than one flaming fart about the fact that the US and Israel, by going in and taking out those leaders, seem intent on not only tearing up and throwing away even a pretense of care for international law, but also launching another Middle East conflagration without even the half-assed “concept of a plan about what comes next” that the Bush administrations had.
If that counts as a “condescending attitude”, well…tough taffy, as my mama used to say.
TurnItOffAndOnAgain
My assumption was this post was alluding to the discussion of Magdi Jacobs/Mangy Jay’s post on Twitter that was in an earlier post on Balloon Juice this morning.
It would’ve been helpful to make that explicit for though, yeah.
Chetan R Murthy
@Tony Jay: There is a burning need in even progressives to believe that America can be a force for good in the world. A -burning- need that expresses itself in an attempt to find a silver lining in any cloud, howsoever foul and dark. That is to say, “can be” turns into “must be (b/c otherwise we’re the baddies, and we can’t be the baddies, no!)”
So it goes.
LAC
@Geminid: It was a relatively calm disagreement on things, with no one telling people to piss up a rope or fuck off and DIAF. I do not understand this front page post at all myself
schrodingers_cat
@LAC: You and me both.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Me three.
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
I’ve got to leave for a dentist appointment in 20 minutes. I think I’ll just take a pass on it. I guess I’d have expected at least an example or two, but I can move on.
Geminid
@LAC: This war has really gotten people on edge, and that has been evident here ever since Saturday morning. I’m not sure people really believed it could happen, and when it did it was a major shock
Kathleen
@O. Felix Culpa: Yeeeeup! Great to see you back!
ChicagoBarca
@Miss Bianca: They’re not referring to people with rational concerns about what’s going to happen, and the duplicity and incompetence of the actors involved – which is to say what you’ve posted here, which I also agree with.
trollhattan
I remain resolute not liking Mondays.
Fight me.
Steve LaBonne
@Chetan R Murthy: White Americans desperately need to be innocent- conservatives by pretending our actual history never happened, too many progressives by hallucinating that any year now we will start living up to our professed ideals.
LAC
@Geminid: It really has. And it is upsetting but unfortunately for this exploding clown car of an administration, not unbelievable. While there was disagreement on the previous thread, I do not think anyone was “always look on the bright side of life” there. Yourself included.
I do not agree with this War Crimes R Us conflagration being a good thing because I do not believe that the people going into this have any good intentions and could give a shit about regime change (other than the ones that show them the money). It is just too early (and too many times at this) for the “The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interrèd with their bones” quoting. This is a cynical power grab by two despots – what good it will leave behind is highly debatable.
Maybe some of our front pagers need to take a moment and breathe.
steve labonne
@trollhattan: If it were not for going to church on Sunday, there would be many weeks in which I wouldn’t know which day was Monday. I love retirement.
Old Man Shadow
We merely have to look at Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and Gaza to see the future of Iran once the United State and Israel are done.
Saddam Hussein was an evil man too. Qaddafi too.
Warlords. Fundamentalists. Corruption. Violence. Weak governments if one exists at all.
Paul in KY
@Kelly: There’s no ‘mild’ case of shingles.
bluefoot
@Steve LaBonne: This is very insightful and incredibly well put.
Chetan R Murthy
@Paul in KY: Stop, my penis can only get so erect.
different-church-lady
@WaterGirl: I could not be more proud.
Scout211
deleted. wrong thread
different-church-lady
@Kelly: Good news: Trump will suffer.
Bad news: he’ll decide nukes are the answer.
mr perfect
@trollhattan: I hate Tuesdays.
They call it stormy Monday
But Tuesday’s just as bad.
worn
@Geminid: Late to the thread because I’m traveling, but in response, I think Uncle Ebeneezer’s comment is an example. I only mention this because the end of this reply earlier today really set my teeth on edge. To quote: “You can oppose the way this war has happened, oppose Trump, oppose Netanyahu etc., and still be open to the fact that this regime falling may be a net good.”
What I wanted to reply was “I can also be open to the fact that this regime falling may be a net negative. In fact, history suggests that a nation/state militarily toppling the government of an another nation/state without any plan for what to do next is a established formula for turmoil, chaos & possible civil war. Can you present any historical analogues that suggest what you wrote is true?”
This is not directed at you, and moreover, I find your comments and links to primary sources to be incredibly valuable. But you asked for a specific example.
That said, I have no strong opinion about Magy Jay dustup nor her take on the situation.
Geminid
@worn: I’m a little confused; I think it was someone else who asked me for an historical example. I might have engaged if he hadn’t led off with an insult.
But I don’t base my belief– that whatever comes after this this regime will be better– on historical examples. I base it on how bad this regime has been and is, both for Iranians and for other nations in the region like Lebanon and Syria. When news of Khameini’s death broke, Syrians celebrated in the streets and they had good reason to.
And personally, I think historical examples are being given way too much weight here. People keep talking about Iraq in 2003 and Libya in 2011; Iran in 1953 and Iran in 1979. I know the history, but this is Iran in 2026 and that’s how I look at it, as a singular matter.
And I think I also give the 90 million people in Iran and the millions in the Iranian diaspora the credit for intelligence and judgement that they deserve. I believe far too many people sell them short. I also think that many feel that we are historicaly responsible for this regime, and are not entitled to condemn it because of that.
I agree with Ukraine’s President Zelenskyy:
Zelenskyy wrote this Saturday, the day this war began. There was no hedging about the means by which this might accomplished, or dark warnings about a future Iran being worse than the present. And he is not a naive man.
When Adam Silverman posted this statement on his Ukraine thread that night, it was not well-received. It was called “unhelpful,” and people attributed it to a desire to curry favor with Trump. But I attribute it to the fact that Volodymyr Zelenskyy has a strong moral compass and sees the Islamic Republic for what it is.
So, I find myself out of step with majority opinion here. This is not the first time though, and it won’t be the last.
schrodingers_cat
@Geminid:
Welcome to the club!
Kayla Rudbek
@George: yeah, the r/raisedbynarcissists discussion on Reddit has been eye opening for me (and now I wonder just how many of my parents’ generation is narcissistic; one of my aunts has three kids who line up perfectly with scapegoat, golden child, and forgotten child)
Gloria DryGarden
@George: we saw the malignant narcissism during the campaign period before trump 1.0, and we chatted amongst ourselves over on Facebook about this, about our horror and concerns and fears, our knowing it was a really bad idea for such a person to become president. We saw it, and many of us already had experienced narcissism from parents or bosses, abusive situations. I watch further discussions about his malignancy. Are others not onto it?
I appreciate today that the word sadist is being applied. I don’t think that’s too strong a word.
Paul in KY
@Chetan R Murthy: Glad to give you a smile.