We can add MIYNHWB— Moving Into Your New Home While Black– to the endless list.
The Kalonji family had just closed on a foreclosed home and were told by their real estate agent they should go over to the house and change the locks.
But when Jean Kalonji and his wife, Angelica, started working at the home, an armed man and another person who appeared to be the man’s son allegedly confronted them.
“He say to put the hands up and get out from the house, otherwise he would shoot us,” the husband told Channel 2.
The neighbors didn’t believe the couple when they told them they had bought the home and called the Newton County Sheriff’s Office. The Kalonjis didn’t have the closing papers with them, so deputies arrested them, charged them with loitering and prowling and took them to jail.
Christ.
Patricia Kayden
WHAT? Speechless.
SenyorDave
I’m sure ALEC is drafting legislation right now to make this procedure legal in Florida. And the NRA will be lobbying for its passage. Romney will wait to weigh in as to whether he supports it.
Eric U.
Pretty outrageous.
Ash Can
From the link:
I can understand how they would pretty much have to say something like this in public, but I sure as hell hope that, in private, they’re saying “We know exactly what occurred, and why.”
And good grief, this country is becoming the Congo. Is that really what we want?
rikyrah
New Crime…
Owning A Home WHile BLack
no shock here.
Carnacki
Welcome wagons sure have changed
liberal
Isn’t this an open-and-shut case of felonious assault? If they “held” them until the cops came, maybe kidnapping or something akin to that could be filed.
Not that I’m holding my breath.
ETA: …”they” meaning the private citizens. The public forces should be hit with a civil suit, of course.
JPL
How sad. I’m hoping that the Newton County police face a lawsuit large enough that arrests made solely on the basis of skin color stop. I’m also hoping to win the lottery.
In other Atlanta area news..from the AJC
She is challenging Hank Johnson in what should be a safe democratic seat. For those McKinney worshipers, she is not the idol you think she is.
martian
So, the Castle Doctrine includes other people’s castles, now? When you get bored with standing your own ground, you can go stand somebody else’s, too?
‘Cause otherwise I’m not understanding why the welcome wagon didn’t get arrested for assault or something.
Paul in KY
Mr. Kalonji, meet your new neighbors the Sleazetons!
Hope they get some recompense for this complete over-reaction and/or racial profiling situation.
Linda Featheringill
To the Kalonji family:
This is terrible and I’m really sorry you had to go through this. Do you know a good lawyer? It may be time for law suits.
To the vigilantes:
You know, if the “welcome wagon” thought that thieves or something were taking over the house, they could have just called the police and stayed inside the house until the authorities got there.
If this home-making couple had actually been bad guys, the gun-toting papa and his son probably would’ve been killed.
Idiots.
Baud
The key bit of information that is missing from this story is:
Exactly what did the neighbors and/or the police think when they saw that the Kalonjis had (1) keys to the old lock and (2) a set of new replacement locks?
Punchy
Dont ever move to a location with “Newt” in its name.
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
lets hope manifest karma reaches the neighbors.
Tata
The police held the Kalonjis overnight.
Let the flaming lawsuits begin.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
The wife was white, and the husband had moved from Africa to escape all of the fighting.
balconesfault
Did they get their strip searches?
El Cid
Was he wearing a hoodie?
Legalize
BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE TIMES THIS HAPPENS TO WHITE PEOPLE AT THE HANDS OF BLACKS!!!!!!!!!!!
Face
Future neighborhood block parties are going to be really uncomfortable.
Serious question — does the law allow these buyers to reverse their decision? Seems like they may not be inclined to live in that house anymore.
MonkeyBoy
I can slightly understand the initial stage of this confrontation.
A while back a group of row houses near me were owned by a slum lord who didn’t do squat with the properties and they were generally considered an unattractive nuisance.
A community group finally got the landlord to sell and the properties were rehabbed into attractive yuppie housing.
During the several week period from when the tenants vacated the properties to when reconstruction work started several squatter families moved in. I’m not talking about sleazy drug addict squatters but just poor but respectable looking families say with a father, mother, and two kids who took advantage of the free housing.
So yes, vacant housing will attract squatters and squatters will often lie about how they are legitimately occupying the property.
However such claims are damn easy to check rather than proceeding along the lines of assuming that anybody the might be a squatter must be one.
Schlemizel
@martian:
Down in that bastion of enlightenment, Texas, a guy saw two men burgling the neighbors house so he got his gun & went over & shot them. He was not charged under their Casshole doctrine.
What they are doing is setting up some fantastic gun fights as the bad guys know they have to shoot back (or first)
Villago Delenda Est
Some information I’d like to have in this case:
1. What color were the people who called in this “incident” to the authorities?
2. What color were the “authorities” who showed up?
3. Who were these people who confronted the Kalonjis in the first place? Is it possible these were the former residents of the house?
There is a great deal of background that needs to be filled in on this. I’d like to know more about the foreclosure itself.
I don’t suppose there are any journalists in the Atlanta area who might feel a need to seek answers to any of these questions or to discover just what the neighbors were thinking at the time? Did they see a black man and a white woman and go apeshit, for example?
peach flavored shampoo
How is it legal for random dudes to show up with glocks, “question” (read: detain and terrify) homeowners about papers, and not get arrested for assault? Can I really legally carry a open piece around my block asking every non-white for housing information?
This is fucked up, even for the neanderthals in GA.
Xenos
These were neighbors who did this? I could see if it were the previous owners, if they had not been evicted properly following the foreclosure. But neighbors? Sounds like one of those ludicrous torts issue-spotting exams – false imprisonment, intentional infliction of mental distress, assault, trespassing… I am sure I am missing a few more.
As for the police being racist idiots, I fear that is not very newsworthy.
Omnes Omnibus
@martian: False imprisonment. Among other things.
Jado
In defense of the neighbors, the Kalonjis ARE black. I mean, it’s understandable in the US in 2012 that random white guys would hold black people at gunpoint on the vague notion that they might possibly be breaking some law somewhere, right?
That’s right there in the Bill of Rights, I think – 2nd Amendment, right to bear arms against random black people just living their lives.
The best part of this is the last sentence –
“A person at the neighbors’ house said no one wanted to talk to Channel 2 about the incident”
REALLY??? YOU DON’T WANT TO DISCUSS HOW YOU ASSAULTED YOUR NEW NEIGHBORS WITH A DEADLY WEAPON? HOW UNUSUAL!
Jebediah
@Face:
That’s OK, they an rent it out and move into the house they are going to take from their nice neighbors when they sue the fuck out of them.
Or so I hope…
ETA: I will wait patiently for our resident trolls and quasi-trolls to explain how we are mobbily rushing to judgment because none of KNOWS what REALLY HAPPENED etc.
gaz
Too. Early. For. Racist. Douchebags.
meh. I need coffee
max
Heh. Well, it’s not all black people getting screwed. Last week, while I was outside walking the dog around my house, at about 10 in the morning, a cop pulls up. Starts walking across the grass.
I’m all like, ‘Wha?’
So he comes over and starts asking questions. I tell him I live here and I’m walking the dog. He wants my name. He wants my ID. He wants my social security number (!). I tell him I got no ID or social security number because I don’t take my wallet with me when I walk the dog around the house.
So he’s all telling me a neighbor called and said they saw somebody walking around ‘who didn’t belong here’, whatever that means. Another cop pulls up.
So the dog, meantime, has wandered off, so I walk over and get her, walk over to the door, put her inside, and yell, ‘Hey, come out here and tell this guy I live here.’
That more or less takes care of that. The cop is kind of embarrassed but that seems to be the end of it. He does says several times that a neighbor called and really believed I didn’t belong here or some such. Oy.
The entire time, there’s this dude I’ve never seen before standing across the street, in the driveway of the neighbors house, with his arms crossed, looking ‘perturbed’. Pardon the fuck out of me while I roll my eyes.
I’d say we got a lot of dumb fuck busybodies and it seems that these days, they’re all calling 911 every time they see somebody funny looking. (Thing is, is if I called the fucking cops every time I saw someone funny-looking walking down the street I’d be on the phone to the cops five times a day. Sheesh.)
Since it was a cool and wetish morning, I was, in fact, wearing a black hoodie. A Dallas Stars hoodie.
But I wasn’t arrested and no neighbors showed up with guns. I’m guessing I got to skip that part on account of being the ‘palest white boy ever’, as my ex- put it.
God knows what would have happened if I was black, even if I had lived here for five years.
max
[‘The kicker, of course, is that the rest of the day that neighbor was out in the driveway with his obnoxious kid, knocking back cold ones. Feh. And he’s giving ME looks.’]
gaz
@peach flavored shampoo:
There’s no question that it’s illegal. Felony Residential Burglary (yes, it is, read the statutes) and the Kidnapping charge alone would get them an easy 10 years. And that’s without the weapon charges.
mai naem
Somehow,I don’t think the Kalonjis are going to be inviting the neighbors over for bbq.
You damn well know the neighbors knew that the house had been foreclosed on and about when the sale was and furthermore it wouldn’t have been difficult for the sheriff to find out who bought the house esp. since it sounds like they bought it through the realtor not through the trustees sale.
El Cid
You can’t ignore the usefulness of the new Stand Whatever the Fuck Ground You Want laws.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Evidence.
Kay
@Xenos:
All that aside, it’s trespassing, though right?
The gunmen think the couple don’t own the property, but they know they, the gunmen, don’t own the property.
Can gun nuts now come onto private property with impunity, to, ya know, “help” us? The owners got arrested, with all the hassle and humiliation of that, while the trespassers were kicking back watching tv?
Kay
I don’t understand the police thinking that goes “one side says they own the property, and the other side admits they don’t own the property, so we’ll arrest the people who might be trespassing, instead of the people who are, definitely, trespassing”.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay:
A firearm is a license to bully. It empowers you to do all sorts of things.
The gun nuts know this. It’s why they’re gun nuts.
Dork
I can see why your neighbor didn’t think you belonged. Nobody ought to advertise they’re a Stars fan.
greennotGreen
This may or may not be a racial incident, although whatever the intent, it was certainly handled badly.
A couple of years ago, a house around the corner from me burned. While it was under repair (the family had moved out,) their belongings were stored in a POD. I drove by and saw a black guy trying to open the POD lock with a hack saw. Now, I knew that the family who lived there was black, but I didn’t know what any of them really looked like, so I called the police. I didn’t want their stuff being stolen, I don’t care what color the thief’s skin was! Turns out, now that I have seen them often enough to recognize them, that it was the husband who was using the hacksaw on his own lock.
I sure didn’t point a gun at him, and I sure hope the police would have been rational enough to wait until he produced proof of residence. Losing a key to your own stuff isn’t a criminal offense.
Waynski
I’d like to hear more about what was going on at the scene. The cops may have taken them in for their own safety as there were two armed yahoos there insisting they didn’t believe the people owned the house. With the “stand your ground” law, they may have very much feared what might have happened once they left, but couldn’t arrest the Yahoos. If homeowners also refused to leave, which nobody could blame them for, the cops may have exercised the best in a set of bad options to diffuse the situation. But if the homeowners weren’t immediately released and the charges dropped once the papers were produced, well, that’s another story, but I’m not ready to jump on the cops just yet based only on what’s presented above.
But even if the cops did act badly here, which despite what I wrote above is a real possibility in this case, the “stand your ground” law puts cops between a rock and a hard place in many situations. Before SYG, the cops would have told Buford and Billy Bob to STFU, go home or you’re going to be arrested. Now, the only people they had grounds to arrest in this situation were the people who shouldn’t have been arrested. We’re only going to see more of these upside down stories unless these laws are repealed.
SatanicPanic
Are police really OK with this idea that citizens can just go around with guns pretending to do cop work? You would think this only makes their job harder
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Xenos: Of course it was. This is Klan 101; make damn sure the new interracial couple on the block knows “they ain’t welcome here”. I’m sure the cops knew what was going on as well.
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
It’s apparently a license to trespass, at the very least. Do they just traipse onto any property they feel like, now? I was told this was about FREEDOM! No one said that meant “absolute freedom for gun nuts, anyone else is likely to be jailed”.
liberal
@max:
That’s a good question: when the police ask you for information, are you required to give it? If so, what pieces of information?
Mary
That makes no sense at all. If the police could arrest the couple for “loitering”, they could certainly do the same for the Yahoos.
liberal
@Villago Delenda Est:
That’s one of my complaints about liberal gun regimes: people can kill others (e.g., negligent homocide) and completely escape punishment.
WaterGirl
This is just so wrong. What the fuck is wrong with these people? I would sue the hell out of the neighbors. Can’t we have a gun law that says if you do something crazy and irresponsible with your gun that it gets taken away?
Triassic Sands
Heads up, guys, you need to review your 2nd Amendment, which clearly states:
“A bunch of unregulated Vigilantes, being necessary to the needs of total anarchy, the right of the People to keep and recklessly flaunt their personal Arsenals, shall not be infringed.”
liberal
@WaterGirl:
FTFY
gaz
@WaterGirl: We have something like that on the books. It’s called a felony conviction.
liberal
@Mary:
Yeah.
Omnes Omnibus
@Waynski: No. Stand your ground doesn’t mean that you can do whatever the fuck you want. The cops could easily have taken the neighbors in for a variety of offenses. They also could have just told them to go home because they weren’t helping. Instead the cops arrested the homeowners. I’ll wait for more evidence before I get too mad, but I have trouble imagining how this went down legitimately.
liberal
@Triassic Sands:
IIRC BJ used to have quite a few “pro-gun” 2nd Amendment near-absolutists who otherwise seemed liberal. What happened to them?
tjmn
@Dork:
Good one! I’m from MN. Go Wild. (Next year.)
Was it a North Stars hoodie?
gaz
@liberal: I for one believe that if the cops can have guns, citizens should have the right to arm themselves as well. Also, (and maybe more importantly) stripping rights from the BoR sets awful precedent. Otherwise, I’d not support the 2nd amendment – as it’s actually written. But I do.
I’d never be an NRA member, and I do not currently own a gun. Nor do I feel that it’s responsible to keep a gun in the same house where children live. That’s just me.
I’m not what you’d call a near-absolutist though.
Triassic Sands
Americans of Mexican descent have to carry their passports with them or risk being deported. African Americans have to carry their “closing papers” with them or risk being jailed.
And white Americans?
All they have to carry is their weapons, while they decide who they’ll permit to stay in “their” country or “their” neighborhoods.
balconesfault
The proper conservative response here, btw, is to point out that black people have their homes illegally occupied or robbed as well, so why are we making such a big deal here since for all the armed neighbors knew they were protecting a black property owner from having his home damaged.
The real problem is all those black people who deserve to be face down on the sidewalk with a gun against their temple, and aren’t.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@liberal: The easy answer is “yes”, the real answer is “it’s really fucking complicated and varies by state and locality, and always realize that a cop has the ability (not the right but the ability) to take you to jail or shoot you in the head if they fucking feel like it, and the odds of them going to jail for doing so, even if they had no reason whatsoever, are pretty slim”.
I recommend these guys as a starting point:
flexyourrights.org/
gaz
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Pretty much.
Although I’d say – the easy answer is that if you’ve done nothing wrong, and are willing to be taken into custody until they’ve figured that much out for themselves, the answer is “no”.
or maybe that’s not so easy.
and thanks for the link
bemused
The couple was arrested, charged with loitering, taken to jail and held overnight. The police couldn’t have verified they were legit very easily before that? Boy, would I be pissed.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@liberal: Still here. Doesn’t mean I signed up for this newfound “right” to use your gun as an instrument of white supremacist intimidation against black folks minding their own goddamn business on their own goddamn property.
Odie Hugh Manatee
There’s nothing like being greeted by your new neighbors while they are pointing guns at you while calling the cops to have you hauled off.
It sounds so… American!
It’s just another day in post-racial America. Keep on walking by, nothing to see here.
gaz
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Isn’t the traditional greeting some cookies or maybe a pie?
heh. I guess only if your neighbors are white. I’d like Abigail VanBuren (or her proteges) to weigh in on this, in terms of etiquette. =)
quannlace
This. What is the matter with these people? I swear, every idiot who insists on ‘conceal and carry’ laws have these Clint Eastwood-type delusions and are just panting to shoot someone.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@gaz: I know what can happen to you in jail when you decide to get cute with a cop, my grandfather used to be a sheriff in a state in the Deep South to be named later. I heard enough stories. I don’t recommend this as a course of action.
gaz
@Forum Transmitted Disease: My father was the youngest sheriff to be elected in washington state. He was later chief of police in the town we used to live in. later on he joined the FBI.
I know a bit about the laws. I’ve also been arrested before, and taken into custody. County holding isn’t all that dangerous in most places.
Also, I make a point of asking for names and badge numbers as or before the handcuffs go on.
I’ve never had a problem with violence from the police. And county is full of people that are largely harmless if you keep to yourself. Prison, it ain’t
gttim
The couple who bought the house would have been within their rights to shoot and kill the neighbors who stormed onto their property with guns. Of course since at least one of them were black, they would have been treated very poorly by the police.
Waynski
@Mary:
Maybe. Maybe not. The Yahoos may have claimed they were performing some civic duty or somesuch. And as I mentioned above, I’m not sure the cops didn’t behave badly, my money’s rarely on the virtue of cops, but I’d like to see more information. I’m just saying this was probably a very tense situation with lots of shouting and two people with guns, whom the cops rightly or wrongly may have believed they couldn’t arrest, so they arrested the people they knew they could. And however unfair that is – no one got shot (including the cops).
cmorenc
@Baud:
Yes, THAT. The neighbor’s armed response is inexcusable, but I could sort of understand the perspective of the police in being suspiciously skeptical of the Kalonjis regardless of their race IF indeed the Kalonjis had no indicia whatever of ownership and the neighbor was a longtime resident who said he’d never seen the Kalonjis before that incident. HOW-EVER you’re correct in that the failure of the police to notice or inquire about this obvious critical detail DOES tend to indicate that the investigating officers were implicitly influenced by the race of the Kalonjis in too readily leaping to sinister conclusions about what they were up to, without sufficient inquiry.
gaz
@Forum Transmitted Disease: I should add, don’t get “cute” with police. Always be respectful, but ALWAYS assert your rights.
Barry
@Baud: “The key bit of information that is missing from this story is:
Exactly what did the neighbors and/or the police think when they saw that the Kalonjis had (1) keys to the old lock and (2) a set of new replacement locks?”
What did Malcolm X say once? ‘What do you call a black man with a Ph.D.?” Same thing applies.
Barry
@MonkeyBoy: “However such claims are damn easy to check rather than proceeding along the lines of assuming that anybody the might be a squatter must be one.”
With, as Baud points out, step #1 noting that they had the keys to the house.
gaz
@gttim: That, and most black families in this country don’t own guns, if I recall correctly.
Cacti
Things like this aren’t just restricted to ordinary black people either.
Earlier this month, Torii Hunter, outfielder for the Angels and 4-time All Star, accidentally set off the security alarm in his house.
Twenty minutes later, police were on the scene. When he came outside to explain what happened, they drew their guns immediately and walked him upstairs at gunpoint to retrieve his ID.
For some reason, they didn’t believe he lived in Newport coast.
Waynski
@Omnes Omnibus:
The police in Sanford, FL seemed to think so before the rest of the country got all over their assess and for quite awhile after Trayvon was killed that was more or less their position. Remember the Sanford Chief publicly stating that the police could have been sued if they had arrested Zimmerman? Again, I’m not saying I don’t believe the cops aren’t responsible for bad, possibly even illegal behavior in this case, I just don’t know enough about the situation, Georgia law, and how the police have been told to interpret Georgia law to impugn them just yet.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@liberal:
The law says Social security isn’t an ID
gaz
@Cacti: I’m not seeing a problem here. The police had no way of knowing that guy wasn’t in the middle of a home invasion. It sounds to me like they did their job. And the guy wasn’t arrested once he produced identification, am I right? To me it seems like nothing more than a stressful and somewhat scary event for the guy. He’s probably extra careful with that alarm now.
Cacti
@gaz:
Yes, perfectly reasonable to assume that a guy in the middle of a home invasion would walk out the front door to greet them.
Barry
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standing your ground when the ground isn’t, well, yours
By Freddie deBoer April 23rd, 2012
We can add MIYNHWB—Moving Into Your New Home While Black—to the endless list.
The Kalonji family had just closed on a foreclosed home and were told by their real estate agent they should go over to the house and change the locks.
But when Jean Kalonji and his wife, Angelica, started working at the home, an armed man and another person who appeared to be the man’s son allegedly confronted them.
“He say to put the hands up and get out from the house, otherwise he would shoot us,” the husband told Channel 2.
The neighbors didn’t believe the couple when they told them they had bought the home and called the Newton County Sheriff’s Office. The Kalonjis didn’t have the closing papers with them, so deputies arrested them, charged them with loitering and prowling and took them to jail.
Christ.
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This entry was posted on Monday, April 23rd, 2012 at 8:21 am and is filed under Post-racial America. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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72 Responses to “standing your ground when the ground isn’t, well, yours”
1 Patricia Kayden Says:
WHAT? Speechless.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:23 am
2 SenyorDave Says:
I’m sure ALEC is drafting legislation right now to make this procedure legal in Florida. And the NRA will be lobbying for its passage. Romney will wait to weigh in as to whether he supports it.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:27 am
3 Eric U. Says:
Pretty outrageous.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:28 am
4 Ash Can Says:
From the link:
Mark Mitchell, spokesman for the Newton Sheriff’s Office, said authorities are “looking into it, exactly what occurred, why it occurred.”
I can understand how they would pretty much have to say something like this in public, but I sure as hell hope that, in private, they’re saying “We know exactly what occurred, and why.”
And good grief, this country is becoming the Congo. Is that really what we want?
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:29 am
5 rikyrah Says:
New Crime…
Owning A Home WHile BLack
no shock here.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:32 am
6 Carnacki Says:
Welcome wagons sure have changed
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:33 am
7 liberal Says:
Isn’t this an open-and-shut case of felonious assault? If they “held” them until the cops came, maybe kidnapping or something akin to that could be filed.
Not that I’m holding my breath.
ETA: …”they” meaning the private citizens. The public forces should be hit with a civil suit, of course.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:36 am
8 JPL Says:
How sad. I’m hoping that the Newton County police face a lawsuit large enough that arrests made solely on the basis of skin color stop. I’m also hoping to win the lottery.
In other Atlanta area news..from the AJC
Former Georgia congresswoman Cynthia McKinney is preparing to run for her old 4th Congressional district seat on the Green Party ticket.
She is challenging Hank Johnson in what should be a safe democratic seat. For those McKinney worshipers, she is not the idol you think she is.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:37 am
9 martian Says:
So, the Castle Doctrine includes other people’s castles, now? When you get bored with standing your own ground, you can go stand somebody else’s, too?
‘Cause otherwise I’m not understanding why the welcome wagon didn’t get arrested for assault or something.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:38 am
10 Paul in KY Says:
Mr. Kalonji, meet your new neighbors the Sleazetons!
Hope they get some recompense for this complete over-reaction and/or racial profiling situation.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:49 am
11 Linda Featheringill Says:
To the Kalonji family:
This is terrible and I’m really sorry you had to go through this. Do you know a good lawyer? It may be time for law suits.
To the vigilantes:
You know, if the “welcome wagon” thought that thieves or something were taking over the house, they could have just called the police and stayed inside the house until the authorities got there.
If this home-making couple had actually been bad guys, the gun-toting papa and his son probably would’ve been killed.
Idiots.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:51 am
12 Baud Says:
The key bit of information that is missing from this story is:
Exactly what did the neighbors and/or the police think when they saw that the Kalonjis had (1) keys to the old lock and (2) a set of new replacement locks?
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:55 am
13 Punchy Says:
Dont ever move to a location with “Newt” in its name.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:55 am
14 Marcellus Shale, Public Dick Says:
lets hope manifest karma reaches the neighbors.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:59 am
15 Tata Says:
The police held the Kalonjis overnight.
Let the flaming lawsuits begin.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:03 am
16 Belafon (formerly anonevent) Says:
The wife was white, and the husband had moved from Africa to escape all of the fighting.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:04 am
17 balconesfault Says:
Did they get their strip searches?
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:07 am
18 El Cid Says:
Was he wearing a hoodie?
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:09 am
19 Legalize Says:
BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE TIMES THIS HAPPENS TO WHITE PEOPLE AT THE HANDS OF BLACKS!!
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:11 am
20 Face Says:
Future neighborhood block parties are going to be really uncomfortable.
Serious question—does the law allow these buyers to reverse their decision? Seems like they may not be inclined to live in that house anymore.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:18 am
21 MonkeyBoy Says:
I can slightly understand the initial stage of this confrontation.
A while back a group of row houses near me were owned by a slum lord who didn’t do squat with the properties and they were generally considered an unattractive nuisance.
A community group finally got the landlord to sell and the properties were rehabbed into attractive yuppie housing.
During the several week period from when the tenants vacated the properties to when reconstruction work started several squatter families moved in. I’m not talking about sleazy drug addict squatters but just poor but respectable looking families say with a father, mother, and two kids who took advantage of the free housing.
So yes, vacant housing will attract squatters and squatters will often lie about how they are legitimately occupying the property.
However such claims are damn easy to check rather than proceeding along the lines of assuming that anybody the might be a squatter must be one.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:18 am
22 Schlemizel Says:
@martian:
Down in that bastion of enlightenment, Texas, a guy saw two men burgling the neighbors house so he got his gun & went over & shot them. He was not charged under their Casshole doctrine.
What they are doing is setting up some fantastic gun fights as the bad guys know they have to shoot back (or first)
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:19 am
23 Villago Delenda Est Says:
Some information I’d like to have in this case:
1. What color were the people who called in this “incident” to the authorities?
2. What color were the “authorities” who showed up?
3. Who were these people who confronted the Kalonjis in the first place? Is it possible these were the former residents of the house?
There is a great deal of background that needs to be filled in on this. I’d like to know more about the foreclosure itself.
I don’t suppose there are any journalists in the Atlanta area who might feel a need to seek answers to any of these questions or to discover just what the neighbors were thinking at the time? Did they see a black man and a white woman and go apeshit, for example?
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:20 am
24 peach flavored shampoo Says:
How is it legal for random dudes to show up with glocks, “question” (read: detain and terrify) homeowners about papers, and not get arrested for assault? Can I really legally carry a open piece around my block asking every non-white for housing information?
This is fucked up, even for the neanderthals in GA.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:21 am
25 Xenos Says:
These were neighbors who did this? I could see if it were the previous owners, if they had not been evicted properly following the foreclosure. But neighbors? Sounds like one of those ludicrous torts issue-spotting exams – false imprisonment, intentional infliction of mental distress, assault, trespassing… I am sure I am missing a few more.
As for the police being racist idiots, I fear that is not very newsworthy.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:22 am
26 Omnes Omnibus Says:
@martian: False imprisonment. Among other things.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:22 am
27 Jado Says:
In defense of the neighbors, the Kalonjis ARE black. I mean, it’s understandable in the US in 2012 that random white guys would hold black people at gunpoint on the vague notion that they might possibly be breaking some law somewhere, right?
That’s right there in the Bill of Rights, I think – 2nd Amendment, right to bear arms against random black people just living their lives.
The best part of this is the last sentence –
“A person at the neighbors’ house said no one wanted to talk to Channel 2 about the incident”
REALLY??? YOU DON’T WANT TO DISCUSS HOW YOU ASSAULTED YOUR NEW NEIGHBORS WITH A DEADLY WEAPON? HOW UNUSUAL!
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:23 am
28 Jebediah Says:
@Face:
Seems like they may not be inclined to live in that house anymore.
That’s OK, they an rent it out and move into the house they are going to take from their nice neighbors when they sue the fuck out of them.
Or so I hope…
ETA: I will wait patiently for our resident trolls and quasi-trolls to explain how we are mobbily rushing to judgment because none of KNOWS what REALLY HAPPENED etc.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:23 am
29 gaz Says:
Too. Early. For. Racist. Douchebags.
meh. I need coffee
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:23 am
30 max Says:
Heh. Well, it’s not all black people getting screwed. Last week, while I was outside walking the dog around my house, at about 10 in the morning, a cop pulls up. Starts walking across the grass.
I’m all like, ‘Wha?’
So he comes over and starts asking questions. I tell him I live here and I’m walking the dog. He wants my name. He wants my ID. He wants my social security number (!). I tell him I got no ID or social security number because I don’t take my wallet with me when I walk the dog around the house.
So he’s all telling me a neighbor called and said they saw somebody walking around ‘who didn’t belong here’, whatever that means. Another cop pulls up.
So the dog, meantime, has wandered off, so I walk over and get her, walk over to the door, put her inside, and yell, ‘Hey, come out here and tell this guy I live here.’
That more or less takes care of that. The cop is kind of embarrassed but that seems to be the end of it. He does says several times that a neighbor called and really believed I didn’t belong here or some such. Oy.
The entire time, there’s this dude I’ve never seen before standing across the street, in the driveway of the neighbors house, with his arms crossed, looking ‘perturbed’. Pardon the fuck out of me while I roll my eyes.
I’d say we got a lot of dumb fuck busybodies and it seems that these days, they’re all calling 911 every time they see somebody funny looking. (Thing is, is if I called the fucking cops every time I saw someone funny-looking walking down the street I’d be on the phone to the cops five times a day. Sheesh.)
Since it was a cool and wetish morning, I was, in fact, wearing a black hoodie. A Dallas Stars hoodie.
But I wasn’t arrested and no neighbors showed up with guns. I’m guessing I got to skip that part on account of being the ‘palest white boy ever’, as my ex- put it.
God knows what would have happened if I was black, even if I had lived here for five years.
max
[‘The kicker, of course, is that the rest of the day that neighbor was out in the driveway with his obnoxious kid, knocking back cold ones. Feh. And he’s giving ME looks.’]
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:26 am
31 gaz Says:
@peach flavored shampoo:
How is it legal for random dudes to show up with glocks, “question”
There’s no question that it’s illegal. Felony Residential Burglary (yes, it is, read the statutes) and the Kidnapping charge alone would get them an easy 10 years. And that’s without the weapon charges.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:26 am
32 mai naem Says:
Somehow,I don’t think the Kalonjis are going to be inviting the neighbors over for bbq.
You damn well know the neighbors knew that the house had been foreclosed on and about when the sale was and furthermore it wouldn’t have been difficult for the sheriff to find out who bought the house esp. since it sounds like they bought it through the realtor not through the trustees sale.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:27 am
33 El Cid Says:
You can’t ignore the usefulness of the new Stand Whatever the Fuck Ground You Want laws.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:30 am
34 Belafon (formerly anonevent) Says:
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Evidence.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:33 am
35 Kay Says:
@Xenos:
All that aside, it’s trespassing, though right?
The gunmen think the couple don’t own the property, but they know they, the gunmen, don’t own the property.
Can gun nuts now come onto private property with impunity, to, ya know, “help” us? The owners got arrested, with all the hassle and humiliation of that, while the trespassers were kicking back watching tv?
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:34 am
36 Kay Says:
I don’t understand the police thinking that goes “one side says they own the property, and the other side admits they don’t own the property, so we’ll arrest the people who might be trespassing, instead of the people who are, definitely, trespassing”.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:37 am
37 Villago Delenda Est Says:
@Kay:
A firearm is a license to bully. It empowers you to do all sorts of things.
The gun nuts know this. It’s why they’re gun nuts.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:38 am
38 Dork Says:
A Dallas Stars hoodie.
I can see why your neighbor didn’t think you belonged. Nobody ought to advertise they’re a Stars fan.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:39 am
39 greennotGreen Says:
This may or may not be a racial incident, although whatever the intent, it was certainly handled badly.
A couple of years ago, a house around the corner from me burned. While it was under repair (the family had moved out,) their belongings were stored in a POD. I drove by and saw a black guy trying to open the POD lock with a hack saw. Now, I knew that the family who lived there was black, but I didn’t know what any of them really looked like, so I called the police. I didn’t want their stuff being stolen, I don’t care what color the thief’s skin was! Turns out, now that I have seen them often enough to recognize them, that it was the husband who was using the hacksaw on his own lock.
I sure didn’t point a gun at him, and I sure hope the police would have been rational enough to wait until he produced proof of residence. Losing a key to your own stuff isn’t a criminal offense.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:40 am
40 Waynski Says:
I’d like to hear more about what was going on at the scene. The cops may have taken them in for their own safety as there were two armed yahoos there insisting they didn’t believe the people owned the house. With the “stand your ground” law, they may have very much feared what might have happened once they left, but couldn’t arrest the Yahoos. If homeowners also refused to leave, which nobody could blame them for, the cops may have exercised the best in a set of bad options to diffuse the situation. But if the homeowners weren’t immediately released and the charges dropped once the papers were produced, well, that’s another story, but I’m not ready to jump on the cops just yet based only on what’s presented above.
But even if the cops did act badly here, which despite what I wrote above is a real possibility in this case, the “stand your ground” law puts cops between a rock and a hard place in many situations. Before SYG, the cops would have told Buford and Billy Bob to STFU, go home or you’re going to be arrested. Now, the only people they had grounds to arrest in this situation were the people who shouldn’t have been arrested. We’re only going to see more of these upside down stories unless these laws are repealed.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:42 am
41 SatanicPanic Says:
Are police really OK with this idea that citizens can just go around with guns pretending to do cop work? You would think this only makes their job harder
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:42 am
42 Forum Transmitted Disease Says:
These were neighbors who did this?
@Xenos: Of course it was. This is Klan 101; make damn sure the new interracial couple on the block knows “they ain’t welcome here”. I’m sure the cops knew what was going on as well.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:43 am
43 Kay Says:
@Villago Delenda Est:
It’s apparently a license to trespass, at the very least. Do they just traipse onto any property they feel like, now? I was told this was about FREEDOM! No one said that meant “absolute freedom for gun nuts, anyone else is likely to be jailed”.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:44 am
44 liberal Says:
@max:
He wants my name. He wants my ID. He wants my social security number (!). I tell him I got no ID or social security number because I don’t take my wallet with me when I walk the dog around the house.
That’s a good question: when the police ask you for information, are you required to give it? If so, what pieces of information?
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:46 am
45 Mary Says:
The cops may have taken them in for their own safety as there were two armed yahoos there insisting they didn’t believe the people owned the house. With the “stand your ground” law, they may have very much feared what might have happened once they left, but couldn’t arrest the Yahoos.
That makes no sense at all. If the police could arrest the couple for “loitering”, they could certainly do the same for the Yahoos.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:51 am
46 liberal Says:
@Villago Delenda Est:
That’s one of my complaints about liberal gun regimes: people can kill others (e.g., negligent homocide) and completely escape punishment.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:52 am
47 WaterGirl Says:
This is just so wrong. What the fuck is wrong with these people? I would sue the hell out of the neighbors. Can’t we have a gun law that says if you do something crazy and irresponsible with your gun that it gets taken away?
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:52 am
48 Triassic Sands Says:
Heads up, guys, you need to review your 2nd Amendment, which clearly states:
“A bunch of unregulated Vigilantes, being necessary to the needs of total anarchy, the right of the People to keep and recklessly flaunt their personal Arsenals, shall not be infringed.”
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:55 am
49 liberal Says:
@WaterGirl:
Can’t we have a gun law that says if you do something crazy and irresponsible with your gun that it gets taken away you do hard time?
FTFY
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:55 am
50 gaz Says:
@WaterGirl: We have something like that on the books. It’s called a felony conviction.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:55 am
51 liberal Says:
@Mary:
Yeah.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 9:56 am
52 Omnes Omnibus Says:
@Waynski: No. Stand your ground doesn’t mean that you can do whatever the fuck you want. The cops could easily have taken the neighbors in for a variety of offenses. They also could have just told them to go home because they weren’t helping. Instead the cops arrested the homeowners. I’ll wait for more evidence before I get too mad, but I have trouble imagining how this went down legitimately.
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:56 am
53 liberal Says:
@Triassic Sands:
IIRC BJ used to have quite a few “pro-gun” 2nd Amendment near-absolutists who otherwise seemed liberal. What happened to them?
ReplyReply
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:59 am
54 tjmn Says:
@Dork:
Good one! I’m from MN. Go Wild. (Next year.)
Was it a North Stars hoodie?
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:01 am
55 gaz Says:
@liberal: I for one believe that if the cops can have guns, citizens should have the right to arm themselves as well. Also, (and maybe more importantly) stripping rights from the BoR sets awful precedent. Otherwise, I’d not support the 2nd amendment – as it’s actually written. But I do.
I’d never be an NRA member, and I do not currently own a gun. Nor do I feel that it’s responsible to keep a gun in the same house where children live. That’s just me.
I’m not what you’d call a near-absolutist though.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:02 am
56 Triassic Sands Says:
Americans of Mexican descent have to carry their passports with them or risk being deported. African Americans have to carry their “closing papers” with them or risk being jailed.
And white Americans?
All they have to carry is their weapons, while they decide who they’ll permit to stay in “their” country or “their” neighborhoods.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:02 am
57 balconesfault Says:
The proper conservative response here, btw, is to point out that black people have their homes illegally occupied or robbed as well, so why are we making such a big deal here since for all the armed neighbors knew they were protecting a black property owner from having his home damaged.
The real problem is all those black people who deserve to be face down on the sidewalk with a gun against their temple, and aren’t.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:03 am
58 Forum Transmitted Disease Says:
That’s a good question: when the police ask you for information, are you required to give it? If so, what pieces of information?
@liberal: The easy answer is “yes”, the real answer is “it’s really fucking complicated and varies by state and locality, and always realize that a cop has the ability (not the right but the ability) to take you to jail or shoot you in the head if they fucking feel like it, and the odds of them going to jail for doing so, even if they had no reason whatsoever, are pretty slim”.
I recommend these guys as a starting point:
flexyourrights.org/
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:04 am
59 gaz Says:
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Pretty much.
Although I’d say – the easy answer is that if you’ve done nothing wrong, and are willing to be taken into custody until they’ve figured that much out for themselves, the answer is “no”.
or maybe that’s not so easy.
and thanks for the link
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:06 am
60 bemused Says:
The couple was arrested, charged with loitering, taken to jail and held overnight. The police couldn’t have verified they were legit very easily before that? Boy, would I be pissed.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:09 am
61 Forum Transmitted Disease Says:
IIRC BJ used to have quite a few “pro-gun” 2nd Amendment near-absolutists who otherwise seemed liberal. What happened to them?
@liberal: Still here. Doesn’t mean I signed up for this newfound “right” to use your gun as an instrument of white supremacist intimidation against black folks minding their own goddamn business on their own goddamn property.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:10 am
62 Odie Hugh Manatee Says:
There’s nothing like being greeted by your new neighbors while they are pointing guns at you while calling the cops to have you hauled off.
It sounds so… American!
It’s just another day in post-racial America. Keep on walking by, nothing to see here.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:11 am
63 gaz Says:
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Isn’t the traditional greeting some cookies or maybe a pie?
heh. I guess only if your neighbors are white. I’d like Abigail VanBuren (or her proteges) to weigh in on this, in terms of etiquette. =)
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:13 am
64 quannlace Says:
thought that thieves or something were taking over the house, they could have just called the police and s
This. What is the matter with these people? I swear, every idiot who insists on ‘conceal and carry’ laws have these Clint Eastwood-type delusions and are just panting to shoot someone.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:13 am
65 Forum Transmitted Disease Says:
Although I’d say – the easy answer is that if you’ve done nothing wrong, and are willing to be taken into custody until they’ve figured that much out for themselves, the answer is “no”.
@gaz: I know what can happen to you in jail when you decide to get cute with a cop, my grandfather used to be a sheriff in a state in the Deep South to be named later. I heard enough stories. I don’t recommend this as a course of action.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:14 am
66 gaz Says:
@Forum Transmitted Disease: My father was the youngest sheriff to be elected in washington state. He was later chief of police in the town we used to live in. later on he joined the FBI.
I know a bit about the laws. I’ve also been arrested before, and taken into custody. County holding isn’t all that dangerous in most places.
Also, I make a point of asking for names and badge numbers as or before the handcuffs go on.
I’ve never had a problem with violence from the police. And county is full of people that are largely harmless if you keep to yourself. Prison, it ain’t
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:20 am
67 gttim Says:
The couple who bought the house would have been within their rights to shoot and kill the neighbors who stormed onto their property with guns. Of course since at least one of them were black, they would have been treated very poorly by the police.
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April 23rd, 2012 at 10:22 am
68 Waynski Says:
@Mary:
That makes no sense at all. If the police could arrest the couple for “loitering”, they could certainly do the same for the Yahoos.”
Waynski : “Maybe. Maybe not. The Yahoos may have claimed they were performing some civic duty or somesuch.”
As has been pointed out, they committed multiple felonies at that point. The police could have arrested them, and had the prosecutor, judge and jury sort that out.
” And as I mentioned above, I’m not sure the cops didn’t behave badly, my money’s rarely on the virtue of cops, but I’d like to see more information. I’m just saying this was probably a very tense situation with lots of shouting and two people with guns, whom the cops rightly or wrongly may have believed they couldn’t arrest, so they arrested the people they knew they could. And however unfair that is – no one got shot (including the cops).”
Let’s see – did the couple in question have anything indicating possession – such as the keys to the house?
Comrade Dread
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Yeah, I would concur with your assessment.
Given the number of stories I’ve read about people dying in custody or being tortured with Tasers for “resisting” as they’re handcuffed, the only way you should agree to go with the police is if you have no choice, and preferably after having someone contact a lawyer to represent you.
gaz
@Barry: dude, WTF? Please request deletion and repost. You just destroyed the thread.
Adding, fucking clipboards, how do they work?
Schlemizel
The real lesson to take from the resent spate of events is pretty simple. If you are going to commit a crime you had better be armed & you had better be ready to shoot first. Like the burglar in OK, you will get 7 years for the attempted theft but walk on the murder charge. Thats a whole hell of a lot better than getting shot to death & both you and whoever it was that intervened in your crime can use SYG since both felt their lives threatened.
Happy hunting assholes.
gex
Those gun toting self-appointed vigilante law enforcers better be in a whole world of trouble. Somehow I doubt it. If you barely get in trouble for chasing and gunning down a black person in “self defense”, how can there be any penalty for simply terrorizing black people?
Ugh. My girlfriend is in comedy, and it is so painful to watch the average 25 year old white guy start in comedy. It’s a bunch of “It’s so unfair that white guys are picked on. Political correctness sucks. Why can’t I say n****r, c**t, or f****t anymore?!?!?!”
Dimsdale
@gaz: Spend some time in holding in a major metro area. People are routinely beaten while in holding, sometimes by other inmates. Meds get withheld, sometimes by accident. All other manner of bad things can happen to a person while in holding and very rarely is anyone held accountable.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
He forgot to put “>” in front of every line.
gex
PS. I hope they win enough money to go move someplace else, someplace nicer, and someplace where having a home doesn’t get them threatened by the neoKlan.
Barry
J*s*s Motherf*cking g*d-d* chr*st.
WTF is it?
This motherf*cking sh*t not only pasted what I didn’t highlight,
but won’t let me delete it.
Steeplejack
@Barry:
Dude. WTF?!
@gaz:
LOL. I just did a quick check before posting this and saw your comment.
WyldGyrate
Big deal, this is just another excuse for a Juicebot pile-on on the South. I could name 15 cases of this happening in the north, but you hypocritical dimwits don’t want to hear that there are racists in Livonia, Michigan or Newton, Massachusetts. Besides, the black family was obviously acting furtive and not a goddamn one of you wouldn’t have responded to that.
The Golux
@max: It makes you wonder if there is a correlation between regular-Fox-News-viewers and frequent-911-callers.
MildGyrate
Big deal, this is just another excuse for a Juicebot pile-on on the South. I could name 15 cases of this happening in the north, but you hypocritical dimwits don’t want to hear that there are racists in Livonia, Michigan or Newton, Massachusetts. Besides, the black family was obviously acting furtive and drinking 40s and not a goddamn one of you wouldn’t have responded to that.
MobiusKlein
Nobody from the police thought to call the real estate agent?
The bank?
Schlemizel
@Omnes Omnibus:
Actually if you recall SYG was the reason the burglar was not charged with murder when he shot the guy who tried to stop him in the act. Because the guy had a baseball bat the killer justifiably felt his life was threatened so he shot the guy. SYG is a get out of murder free card. It trumps all other laws – at least as so far applied and I think the courts would be hard pressed to change that since the law is quite clear in its intent.
Barry
@gaz: The sh*t won’t let me do that!
I edited it, but nothing popped up in the editing pane, and it won’t let me edit again, nor request deletion.
BTW – I didn’t highlight and copy all of that text; f*cking WP decided to do what it does best.
J
@Triassic Sands: Brilliant!
Though perhaps a reference to creeps and losers should be worked in. Perhaps something along the following lines
“A bunch of unregulated Vigilantes, being necessary to the needs of total anarchy, the right of the People, above all the creeps and losers among them, to keep and recklessly flaunt their personal Arsenals, shall not be infringed.”
Cacti
@MobiusKlein:
A good rule of thumb is never to expect a street-level cop to do more than the minimum “police work” required in any given situation.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Speaking of Stand Your Ground…
Erickk, Son of Erickkk, has a fresh post up at Redstate where he is now tearing into the NRA because they decided to “play it safe and wound up letting ALEC take the bullet” on the Stand Your Ground laws.
Now that Common Cause is challenging ALECs tax exempt status with the IRS, I’m sure Erickkk will soon be howling at the moon.
gaz
@The Golux:
I’m not sure, but I’d willing to bet that there’s a correlation between the consumers of Depends products, Buicks, QVC and Fox viewers.
shortstop
@Schlemizel: I’d like to see an analysis of how all these cases have gone in the 20-something states that have SYG laws. I suspect that we’re not hearing about the cases in which people mounted failed SYG defenses (which should not be construed as support for SYG from me).
gaz
@Barry: FYWP!. Cheers mate.
Schlemizel
@MildGyrate:
Its not the South its the stupidity. OTOH you don’t see this sort of SYG madness much outside the South & West. Even Shit holes like Wisconsin, currently dictated to by teabaggin idiots like Walker & the GOP controlled House & Senate have passed anything as stupid as SYG.
BJ’ers seem particularly hard on the South because they seem to lead the way on this stupidity. When MN passes SYG and has armed white men gunning down black kids in hoodies on a whim I fully expect it will be pointed out derisively on BJ.
Omnes Omnibus
@Waynski: Stand your ground laws are a modification of traditional principles of self defense which state that one has a duty to retreat from a hazardous situation of one can safely do so. One can only use deadly force if one could not retreat. With stand your ground, the duty to retreat is eliminated. In no state is it a license to go after people. Note that Zimmerman has been charged with murder.
Also, even if the cops were concerned about the family’s safety, it does not justify arresting them for loitering. Things don’t add up. Sorry, but they just don’t. I am not inclined to give the benefit of a doubt to either the gun toting neighbors or the cops in this situation.
Roger Moore
@J:
FTFY.
Schlemizel
@shortstop:
I agree it would be easy but I’d expect to have already had some examples dragged out in defense of ALEC and SYG.
gex
Also too… Mission Accomplished. Think any black people want to live in that neighborhood anymore? Can we just take these sorts of white people, put them in their gated communities/company towns and let them have their lily-white serfdom under corporate rule the way they want?
Brian
So much for the presumption of innocence in this country anymore.
El Cid
@Barry: Deja vu! I feel like I’ve seen this before!
gex
@Dork: Calm down. It’s just a tale. His dog wanders off? No leash? The cop has no problem with the loose dog? This sniffs of utter BS like every “white people get treated this way too” anecdote you ever hear. Even the fact that simply having a person call a cop and having the cop question him is compared to HAVING VIGILANTE JUSTICE SHOW UP AT YOUR HOUSE WAIVING GUNS AND THEN BEING HELD OVERNIGHT IN JAIL tells you all you need to know.
@SatanicPanic: Harder how? White people vs. black people and they know who’s right. Black people vs. black people, who cares anyhow? They only have to work harder when it is white people vs. white people. It actually simplifies things to make more official the rule that has been dominating our law enforcement attitudes since the beginning of this country.
Omnes Omnibus
@Schlemizel: The facts in the OK case involved people who went to the burglar’s house and confronted him well after the burglary. The guy didn’t draw down during the crime and walk away from it. It was two separate events involving the same people. I think SYG is stupid; standard self defense provides all the support people should need. But let’s not try to apply the law where it doesn’t fit.
Kay
@Waynski:
I just don’t think we can accept this. It’s okay now to detain law abiding people to keep them safe from gun-toting hotheads?
What about their rights?
I can say unequivocally I do not want self-appointed armed police protecting my property. I don’t want them to do that. I think they cause chaos and tragedy, and I don’t want any part of it. I had my house broken into by what turned out to be a 15 year old. I don’t want him accidentally or deliberately executed for breaking into my house.
This could have ended very badly.
samara morgan
Have you decided who you’re voting for yet Fierbagger Freddie?
cuz’ i confess, im not relly interested in anything you have to say until that is resolved.
i guess you are supporting Bishop Willard, amirate? because not voting is the same as a vote for the Rombot.
gex
@liberal: Don’t engage. This is a person who is comparing having someone call the police and being questioned and having a dog that can just “wander off” and not being thrown in jail or charged with anything to being assaulted by gun toting neighbors and jailed by the local cops.
False equivalences via shitty anecdote. The perfect cure for racism.
LanceThruster
And I thought I used to live next door to the neighbors from hell.
Svensker
@Omnes Omnibus:
Only after the media and the Feds got involved. Before that, Zimmerman was going to walk without any questions being asked.
samara morgan
@gex: c’mon gex…..who cares about de Bores cafeteria news service. he said multiple times he can’t bring himself to vote for Obama.
WTF is he doing here?
Mnemosyne
@gex:
I think you’re way overreacting to the guy’s story, especially since he ended it by pointing out that, while it was annoying that his neighbor was trying to make trouble, he’s fully aware that it didn’t turn into anything worse because he’s white:
Lurking Canadian
I hope the police did not also exercise their Scalia-given right to strip search the homeowners.
I further hope they sue the neighbors and te cops for enough to pay off their house and move to their new one.
Omnes Omnibus
@Svensker: Fine. Granted. And? This is one of the reasons I think SYG laws are stupid; they add an unnecessary layer of complexity on self defense laws. Nevertheless, SYG laws are simply a modification of self defense laws – they are not permission to do what one wants with a gun in hand. Going hard after Zimmerman should help establish that.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes it is. AFAICT it doesn’t just eliminate the duty to retreat; it changes the burden of proof.
samara morgan
O Juicers….please note Firebagger Freddies new posting style– a single news bite instead of a thousand word PW style post about freddies feelings.
i wunner who’s coaching him– dougj or cole?
still, I’m not interested in de Bore bloviation unless he comes out about his attentions vis a vis President Obama.
/mean grrl smile
Full of Woe
I’m sure that when the police released them they apologized profusely, right?
Sigh.
The sad thing is I’m not even surprised about any of this.
gex
@gaz: The ability to say no without serious consequence seems to hinge on how tan you are.
gex
@gaz: If they look at him and say he can’t possibly live in Newport, why do you think that is?
ruemara
@Waynski: And stupid apologist at 40. I did say, the first time this was linked to yesterday, that we’d have someone in to tell us why we should not rush to judge. Blithering idiot, this was no security holding, this was fucking arrest of innocent people, for taking possession of their new home. AND IT WAS RACIAL.
Omnes Omnibus
@liberal: I believe that the burden of proof aspect varies from state to state. Nevertheless, it was not my intention to get into wrangling about SYG. All I was saying is that I have trouble conceiving of how SYG justifies the neighbor’s actions or why anyone saw any reason to take the homeowners into custody.
Paul in KY
@max: Hope you gave them a few stares. Should have mentioned to cops that you’d never seen the guy across the street & that you want to report him.
Paul in KY
@bemused: i would have had that real estate agent over there toute suite.
Paul in KY
@Cacti: I wonder if Eddie Murphy is the real problem here.
Policemen have probably all seen the Beverly Hills Cop movies & Trading Places & they are not gonna be snookered by a clean cut, fast talking black guy.
I hope Eddie can sleep at night…
NCSteve
@liberal: The gun wielders committed the torts of trespass to land, assault and false imprisonment. There is no legal right to intrude on someone else’s land, even to “save” it from those hoards of looting, thieving ni-CLANG!’s the NRA’s been warnin’ hard working folks about for decades now.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m talking about FL. Might be true of some other states (ie burden shifting).
In FL, the law is clearly an invitation to murder in the commonly used sense.
NCSteve
@gaz: The guy spent the night in jail. So, no, you’re wrong. He was basically arrested for not carrying the deed to his new house around in his pocket. Which I didn’t do after I bought my house either. And yet, somehow, I didn’t have to face a posse of gun wielding rednecks the day I moved in and didn’t get arrested and sent to jail.
Because when a house is for sale for a long time and then people show up and start changing the locks, naturally, “home invasion” is the first thing you think of.
NCSteve
@Baud: Evil ni-CLANG’s killed honest white people and stole their keys.
Waynski
@Omnes Omnibus: I was never defending the neighbors and don’t give them the benefit of the doubt. I also am not giving the cops the benefit of the doubt. I’m inclined to think they either did something wrong or simply handled this badly. I’m just not jumping to conclusions and pointing out there’s a lot of detail missing from the story and so I’m not ready to pounce on the cops. You seem certain. I’m not yet. That appears to be where we are differing.
On your Zimmerman point, yes he’s charged with murder but he never would have been if his parents hadn’t raised holy hell and made it a national story. The cops were going to let him walk, citing SYG.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
Fuck, fuck, fuck.
Others have already brought this up, but, damn, I hope they sue the shit out of these asshole neighbors. So, now, it’s all right to just threaten to shoot–or, hey, why not just go whole hog, forget the threatening, and just shoot–anybody? Anywhere? For any reason? Any time?
What the hell. Let’s just declare ourselves Somalia II and get it over with. We can all gather ’round whichever warlord we want to oversee us as we fight to the death over scraps of rotting food in our new Libertarian Paradise.
gwangung
@Waynski: Well, actually, I’d kick the cops and the neighbors—basically, it’s “Based on what I’m hearing, you guys acted like shits. What do you have to say for yourselves?”
Suffern ACE
@Lurking Canadian: Yeah, I was thinking about that this morning. In that case, even having the right papers with you didn’t prevent the police from holding you in jail for a week or two. Just a guess, but if the oouple in this case had their closing papers with them, the police would have arrested them anyway because they aren’t attorney’s used to looking at closing papers so what proof is that to them?
Delurking to comment
When I was 19 years old a guy broke into my mom’s house while I was home on winter break. I was home at the time and didn’t have time to do anything except call 911. While I was waiting on someone to answer he walked into the hallway and saw me crouched beside the bed in my mom’s room. He turned an ran, jumped into the waiting truck outside in the driveway and they sped off.
I have often argued with gun nuts that if either of us had had a gun things might have turned out quite differently, but as it was no one was hurt. I am always astounded when the gun nut responds that if I HAD killed him he would have deserved it. And they ALL respond that way.
Mickey
Cue all racism all the time ABL Vista Home Edition with another arms flailing hair on fire post.
News flash, at any given instant stupid shit is happening somewhere.
gaz
@gex: Yeah. White Privilege is teh awesome. Everyone should get them some of this stuff.
/snark
gaz
@Mickey: Shorter
fuckknuckleMickey: “ABL is a bitch because she complains about me being a racist asshole”or
“ABL is a bitch because she won’t tolerate my intolerance”
Seen it before, douchebag. You’re not saying anything edgy or insightful. You’re just garden variety white male refuse, trotting the same shit out that white male assholes have been saying for centuries. It’s just as wrong and stupid as it always was.
Barry
@Steeplejack: “Dude. WTF?!”
As I said, I didn’t copy all of that, and WP decided that I wasn’t the author for requesting deletion or editing.
FYWP
Don
@liberal: “That’s a good question: when the police ask you for information, are you required to give it? If so, what pieces of information?”\
Short answer: sort of, sometimes, but if you want to make an issue of it there’s a good chance you’ll get detained. Being eventually right may or may not be worth it for you.
Longer answer: The answer used to be no, but the Hiibel case made it obligatory if the cops have some reasonable cause. So you can ask if you’re being detained and for what reason and, in theory, if they don’t have one you don’t have to produce.
Cole or DougJ should front-page this stuff for everyone’s edification, but for anyone still reading here I’d highly recommend the work of the Flex Your Rights group. Their most recent series addressed the ID requirement very practically.
Amir Khalid
@samara morgan:
Sigh. This is why people here find it hard to like you.
Mnemosyne
@gaz:
I still haven’t figured out why young white dudes think that echoing lame racial and gender humor of the 1950s is “edgy” and “hip.” Telling jokes that your great-grandma would have found totally hi-larious is cutting-edge?
gaz
@Mnemosyne: I guess. Usually, I find that this explains their choice of dress (sweater vests? anyone), personal hygiene (Jonah Goldberg), and lack of success with attractive and intelligent members of the opposite sex, so I guess I sort of assume they are either virgins, or beat their wives, too.
Gee, I’m such a bigot. Too bad I don’t care. If the argument of “They started it/They do it too” is so happily employed by these people whenever they say something nasty, I don’t mind holding them to the same standard. Even if it’s kindergarten/schoolyard bullshit
martian
@Schlemizel:
If that’s the same case I’m recalling, the neighbor fully approved and gave warm fuzzy wuzzy interviews about how great it was when neighbors have your back. The hint of a whiff of investigation and potential prosecution was met with outrage from all and sundry. Because we live in the Wild West, apparently, and horse thieves and cattle rustlers will meet frontier justice under the nearest sturdy branch.
__
Human life is held cheaply by a large percentage of Americans, no getting around it. Seems to me that a scary number of people imagine themselves living in some sort of weird mash-up of The Andy Griffith Show and Dirty Harry where the “right” people are coddled along with a chuckle and the “wrong” people are dealt with extreme prejudice. Barney Fife gets a full clip instead of a single bullet and finally gets his man.
gaz
@NCSteve:
I read the link, and I didn’t see that. The only thing that I saw was that they made him retrieve his ID at
gunpointwith guns drawn.from the article:
Did he tweet from jail? Or did they come back and arrest him later? (maybe for tweeting?)
You should probably read the article again.
Pococurante
@Schlemizel:
Please to go this link, and count the number of Southern and Northern states that have SYG laws.
Then go to this link and see how many have CD laws. Note farther down that states requiring retreat when threatened include Southern states.
I could create a Let Me Google that For You link to show abuses of the law across the country. But I’m already tired of doing your self-reflection for you.
Stupidity and bigotry don’t respect state lines.
gex
@gaz: Yeah, and I noticed you responded to one of my comments, but not this one: @gex
So again, tell me why the cops can take one look at that man and just know that he can’t live in Newport?
Mnemosyne
@Pococurante:
Uh, that Wikipedia article is trying to claim that the law Illinois passed in 1961 is the same law that states like Texas and Florida passed in the mid-2000s. Trust me, it ain’t.
Sorry, but I think the right-wing propagandizers have gotten to Wikipedia.
gaz
@gex: Don’t you know this? LINNWB = Living In Nice Neighborhood While Black is a crime. Try to keep up ;)
/snark
gaz
@gex: Now my serious addressing of the issue.
If I have an alarm, I EXPECT a police response. When they come in, I want them to make ZERO assumptions about who lives there. I’d like them to not let someone off because they are a white burglar in a nice suit.
This guy was not arrested. He was compelled to provide evidence that he lived somewhere. And I’ve had cops point their guns in my VERY WHITE face for EXACTLY THE SAME REASON.
I’m not seeing evidence of racism in this case. We can speculate of course. If they’d beat him or arrested him I might. But they didn’t. Also, he seems happy with the job they did, so what’s your problem with him?
Pococurante
@martian: @Mnemosyne: It’s wikipedia. Round up your citations and get it changed.
Mnemosyne
@Pococurante:
Also, too, let’s take a look at the states in your second list:
Alabama: South
Arizona: Southwest, former Confederate territory
Colorado: West
Florida: South
Georgia: South
Indiana: Midwest
Kentucky: South
Louisiana: South
Maryland: South
Mississippi: South
Montana: West
Nevada: Southwest
New Hampshire: East
Oklahoma: South
Pennsylvania: East
Tennessee: South
Texas: Southwest, former Confederate state
Utah: West
Washington: West
So, of your list of 19, you have 9 Southern states, 2 Southwest states that were part of the Confederate States of America, 4 Western states, 2 Eastern states, and one in the Midwest.
Sorry, but that sure seems like a Southern phenomenon to me, especially once you include the two former Confederate states that are technically part of the “South.”
Mnemosyne
@Pococurante:
So your claim is that the law that Illinois passed in 1961 is identical to the one that Florida passed in 2005, so they should be grouped in together?
gaz
@gex:
Specifically, they had good reason to believe that he didn’t belong in that house because the alarm went off, which is you know, what alarms are supposed to do when there’s an intruder present.
Edit:
So back atcha:
As far as I can tell, you know, by reading the link, once he established proof of residency they left him alone. That’s standard operating procedure. Tell me why that’s racist?
Mnemosyne
@Mnemosyne:
Whoops, sorry — I left Nevada out of my final count, so add in “one Southwest state.” They supported the Union, so they were not Confederate sympathizers like Texas and Arizona and should be counted separately.
Paul in KY
@Mickey: Stupid shit that seems to happen disproportionally to black people and very rarely to white people. Yes, stupid shit other than your post above.
Pococurante
@Mnemosyne: I was responding to Schlemzial’s assertion that these laws are only in the South and their abuse is only in the South. You can throw in as many “not the South” region names you want but it doesn’t support his point. (BTW you can break down South even more if this is really the way you want to play.)
Rather than parse region names why don’t you and Schlmezal spend some Google time confirming that stupid bigots abusing these laws only happen in the South.
LMGTFY.
Svensker
@martian:
That’s what gets me, too. Very nicely put.
Mnemosyne
@Pococurante:
Except that’s not what Schlmeizel said. This is what he said:
As I pointed out, Southern states and former Confederate territories are the majority when you look at which states passed the recent, ALEC-written “Stand Your Ground” laws that are causing problems in places like Florida. So your contention is that these Southern states are not, in fact, “lead(ing) the way” because other states later followed suit and passed similar laws? Are you familiar with the phrase “lead the way”?
Chyron HR
@Pococurante:
Instead of trying to prove that Oklahoma is one of them liberal elitist costal states, wouldn’t it be easier for you Southen Mans to just stop gunning down “fucking goons” under incredibly flimsy pretenses?
Mnemosyne
@Pococurante:
If we go by your map, then Texas is an official Southern state, which gives the South a full majority (10 out of 19 states with SYG laws are in the South). Are you sure that supports your claim that the South has not, in fact, “led the way” with these laws and Both Sides Do It?
geg6
@Triassic Sands:
It’s late in the thread, but I’m stealing that.
gaz
@Cacti:
Actually, if that’s all it took, that’d be my first response (after the initial panic).
Anyway, I commented on this further in response to gex. I’d be interested in seeing you support your accusation of racism in light of the comments I posted in response. The “victim” doesn’t even think the cops were being racist. He said he was happy with their response. Why can’t you be? It’s not even your fucking house.
When you casually bandy about terms like “racist” it robs the term of it’s power and serves to undermine the damage that racism does. Please use the word “racist” responsibly. And thanks for playing
Jess
@Pococurante: Is this the part you’re directing our attention to?
There are many good things and wonderful people in the South–no one can deny that–but it does have a disproportionate share of the problems associated with poverty, low levels of education, faith-based culture and politics, tribalism and an unfortunate history of race relations. It’s not anti-south bigotry to point that out and to get frustrated with the misery it causes, especially when our tax dollars are being spent on apparently futile attempts to relieve that misery.
Pococurante
This is the Texas Law – which part do you have an issue with?
Zimmerman could never have gotten a gun permit in Texas. And he would not have been protected here either.
For someone who believes no one has the right to own a gun and use it for self-defense then there is no acceptable CD/SYG.
brantl
@JPL: I don’t think many people worshipped her, but she sure did get screwed out of her seat.
Pococurante
@Jess: What does that have to do with abuse of SYG/CD laws.
Seen pictures of Detroit recently? Check this link: you are quibbling over narrow ranges. Bear in mind also that most Southern states have been leading in economic growth since the 1980s, and Texas in particular enjoys significant increases in educated population as the Midwest continues its implosion.
Cliff in NH
April 22, 2012
The geography of unemployment
Some quick remarks on the unevenness of the U.S. economic recovery.
Here’s a map showing the average unemployment rate over the last year by U.S. county.
econbrowser.com/archives/2012/04/the_geography_o.html
delosgatos
@NCSteve:
gaz was responding to this story.
gaz
@delosgatos: Thanks, and good eye. I missed that bit. If NCSteve had said They, instead of Him I may have caught it.
Anyway, good lookin out.
The neighbors and cops described in the actual story @ top seem pretty racist to me. The other incident, hardly.
gaz
@gaz: In fact, despite Cacti’s assertion of racism, I think these two cases provide a stark contrast of RACIST response, vs NON-RACIST response, in terms of how this is handled.
In the situation with the new homeowners, the police could have easily verified that the couple had every right to be there. At the very least, they could have given the couple a FAIR opportunity to do so before taking them into custody and booking them OVERNIGHT. If they arrested them until they could verify, and made every attempt to expedite that verification, I could see that. But it seems they didn’t even bother working at it until the next day. Maybe the real estate office was closed by the time they were booked? Who knows. It doesn’t smell right to me, but although suspicious, I’m not going to definitively say they were bad actors, without knowing more, even though many LEOs often are.
Oh, and even if I’m sort of playing devil’s advocate here for the cops (just a little), the neighbors had NO FUCKING EXCUSE. If a house is foreclosed on your block, YOU FUCKING KNOW ABOUT IT. Or you damned well should. Furthermore, it’s NEVER a good idea to draw your guns first, and ask questions later. Ever considered just going over and introducing yourself? Fuck them. I hope they get sued.
Nellcote
@Pococurante:
You made a funny.
samara morgan
@Amir Khalid: idc.
its incomprehensible to me why people post on Firebagger Freddies threads.
i’d rather have greenwald or douthat– they are much better writers.
Mnemosyne
@Pococurante:
Ah, Texas — legalizing road rage since 2007. I can’t imagine why the rest of the country makes fun of them for being violent and backwards.
Also, thanks to stand your ground, in Florida you can legally kill your ex-wife’s boyfriend inside his own home and face no penalty. Thanks, SYG!
Peanutcat
@Baud: Exactly what I was thinking!
asiangrrlMN
@Schlemizel: MN came thisclose to having the same law. Both the House and Senate passed it before Gov. Mark Dayton vetoed it. I wrote about it here. You are correct, though, that if it had passed here, I would have openly and vociferously derided it.
I really hope the Kalonji family backs out of the deal and sues the entire county plus the asshole neighbors who should be charged with SOMETHING for everything they’ve got.
Triassic Sands
@J:
I guess I just assumed that all anarchy loving people with “personal arsenals” would automatically qualify as “creeps and losers.” In my mind, it doesn’t need to be said to be obvious.
I would, however, change the word “needs” to “maintenance,” both to avoid a bit of repetitive language and because I’m fond of the idea of lovingly “maintaining” anarchy. It’s so American.
Retribution
Whenever they see their new neighbors, they should be armed (with a shotgun, fully loaded a,d closed, aimed at their heads).