A black man is dead, and a police officer stands accused of his murder. That in and of itself is rare enough (unfortunately not the former, but the latter) but the additional issue is that police incident report prior to the surfacing of the video shows the manufactured story that would have most likely gotten the cop completely off the hook.
On Saturday the police released a statement alleging that Scott had attempted to gain control of a Taser from Slager and that he was shot in a struggle over the weapon. The Post And Courier reported the initial story:
Police in a matter of hours declared the occurrence at the corner of Remount and Craig roads a traffic stop gone wrong, alleging the dead man fought with an officer over his Taser before deadly force was employed.
…
A statement released by North Charleston police spokesman Spencer Pryor said a man ran on foot from the traffic stop and an officer deployed his department-issued Taser in an attempt to stop him.
That did not work, police said, and an altercation ensued as the men struggled over the device. Police allege that during the struggle the man gained control of the Taser and attempted to use it against the officer.The officer then resorted to his service weapon and shot him, police alleged.
The story clearly came from Slager but he was able to use the authoritative voice of the police department to bolster his narrative. Meanwhile, Scott could only be defended by friends who did not witness the incident. “Walter was a nice, good, honest person… He was a grown man working hard to take care of his family,” said Samuel Scott, the victim’s cousin.
By Sunday, the police department had clammed up and refused to release any additional information about the events. (It’s unclear when the department became aware of the existence of the video.)
Without the video, Scott’s death never would have been questioned, and certainly we would have been in a familiar position of “not enough evidence to warrant a trial”. The story would have been that Officer Slager A) used his Taser first and somehow missed, or wasn’t able to put Scott down, B) was then attacked by Walter Scott, who “struggled with him over control of the Taser”, and C) was then forced to shoot Scott multiple times during the struggle.
And that would have been the end of the story. Slager would have been placed on leave but as a police officer, with the department backing up his story and no evidence to the contrary, nobody really would have doubted him. He’d be back on the force after the investigation was over.
I still don’t think there will be a murder conviction here. Call me a cynic, but I think the road to justice here will take a very long time, and won’t satisfy very many people. Meanwhile whoever recorded this video? He’s soon going to be Public Enemy #1.
Paul in KY
Just looks here like it is SOP to plant the taser (after he figured out that the guy didn’t have it, if that is what he was thinking when he murdered him).
Hope the Scott family gets justice & that this leads to more slimoid cops being removed from policing.
Chris
Yeah, I don’t believe ir either.
Big Picture Pathologist
It’s good the video existed, but a good medical examiner should be able to determine that the shots were fired from a distance into Mr Scott’s back. I wonder if the autopsy report was finalized already.
TaMara (BHF)
The cold, calculated way he gunned Mr. Scott down. That’s just one of the many horrifying takeaways from the video.
Elizabelle
This is the Republic of South Carolina, true, but money speaks especially loudly down there, and I don’t see the City Powers that Be wanting to give tourists a reason to avoid spending their dollars in Charleston.
Be interesting to see who lands on the jury, but I think we might see some justice on this one.
Roger Moore
@Big Picture Pathologist:
And a compliant one would have left that out of his report.
JPL
Zandar, I still don’t think there will be a murder conviction here.
I have to agree.
This happened in GA, http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2015/04/07/three-black-fishermen-and-a-lakeside-laser-guided-sniper/ The interview of the sheriff is interesting. Let’s just say, he’s not Chief Gillispie and where is Mr. Tibbs when you need him.
At least no one died.
also, wouldn’t you search for shell casings or something.
wilfred
Hundreds of thousands of people are dead, including lots of Americans, because of the lies that generated a trumped up war supported by members of both parties.
But that’s ok. This will fuel the rage machine for a while and make everything better.
Violet
What about the supposed witnesses who said they saw the struggle for the teaser?
Elizabelle
Killings of black men by police is out of control.
I think a lot of what drives it is bad training of the police — confrontation seems to be an early response — and mostly, fear by the police. Projection: I would bet if you are a police officer, most of the people you know are armed or gun enthusiasts. So you tell yourself that all the scary (black) dudes you encounter are armed too, and hot to prove their second amendment creds.
From the NYTimes reader comments: ShelJen of Gettysburg (and it’s a NYTimes pick):
Paul in KY
@Big Picture Pathologist: Would like to know if it is in writing somewhere (as it certainly should be, if a policy) that if a person gains control of your taser & is running off with it (not trying to use it on you the police officer), that you can use deadly force.
I would sure hope that you could not in that situation.
I’m sure that if they get your weapon (handgun) & do the same thing, you can shoot them (protecting other people/yourself from future mayhem, etc.).
Reason here would be that only ‘defense’ (it appears) of the cop is that he thought he had the taser (those cost $750.00) & was bent on tasing little old ladies.
Unabogie
Body cameras. Now. Every cop. Turning it off is grounds for termination, possibly even criminal charges.
Keith G
I’m a bit more optimistic. But then again that is a weakness with me. It seems to me, that this type of videographic evidence will seep it’s way into the consciousness of many who before now have clung to their resistance to seeing the truth on how law enforcement deals with the populations of others.
brettvk
I wondered if I was the only person who had been struck with the odd, repeated tendency of people detained by the police to just, go crazy I guess, and try to grab an officer’s service revolver, thus forcing (forcing, I tell you!) the poor officer to kill them. It happens again and again. All these unarmed people who decide that they have to kill a policeman and need his gun to do it — I guess they all had trouble getting guns for themselves.
Violet
@Violet: Ugh. Taser. Stupid autocorrect.
Paul in KY
@wilfred: We’ve been pretty pissed about that for a while now…
Big Picture Pathologist
@Roger Moore: Indeed, that has been (is) a problem. That is why I hope the report has been finalized because we might also be able to get rid of a rotten ME/coroner at the same time. However I recall that they have 30 days to finalize a report so that leaves plenty of time for revising. Either way, I doubt an ME will cover for the cop now that the video is out.
David in NY
@Elizabelle:
Well, whatever the City thinks, the Republic of SC doesn’t give a rat’s ass about offending tourists. Once again last year the state (via Gov. Haley et al.) rejected pleas to take the Confederate (Traitor) flag off the Capitol grounds. I have never been there, I’m not going until it’s gone, and I’m sure there are lots of others who share my views, but who think that Charleston might be a pretty place to go in the Spring.
JPL
@Big Picture Pathologist: If it was, they shredded the copy and are redoing it to match the video.
Elizabelle
Another good NYTimes reader comment, by reader Nick of Edinburgh, a university student:
boatboy_srq
@Big Picture Pathologist:
Just like a good forensics lab would be able to run tests on a firearm to determine whether it’s the weapon in a homicide case.
@Roger Moore: I see you beat me to it.
Barbara
@Violet: From what I can tell, there was a struggle for a taser, but the struggle was abandoned and Scott began running away. It was after that struggle, with Scott clearly at least 15 to 20 feet away and running from the officer, that the officer resorted to lethal force. So the witnesses were right about a struggle, but the video shows that the man was not shot because of that struggle.
Tommy
@Paul in KY: Not sure it is in writing. I am a cop, you try to take away anything I have on my belt, like a taser, you are going to get shot. I’d be stunned if anybody here even argued with me on this point.
MattF
Here’s Wikipedia on ‘Deadly Force’:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force
You’re looking for a narrative that justifies deadly force? Comin’ right up!
boatboy_srq
@Elizabelle: FL had a not-entirely-dissimilar tourist-dissuading event some years ago. FL’s response was to place armed patrols at all Interstate rest stops (at first FHP, but eventually contracted “security” [translation: ought-to-be-retirees pulling Wackenhut salaries to pack heat and harass Those People). I don’t expect SC will do much beyond throw the book at the one cop stupid enough to get caught on tape messing with his own crime scene.
JPL
IMO, Cameras on police officers would be a start, but they really need mics. We don’t know what happened at the stop. Since we can infer that the police officer was a homicidal maniac, what else can we infer?
Violet
@Barbara: From last night’s thread. This is from an article. Sorry can’t link– on my phone:
So witnesses claim the shooting happened during the scuffle.
Paul in KY
@Tommy: Certainly while you are still struggling with the perp, I would agree. However, once they start running away (and they don’t have your gun), you can’t just shoot their ass.
Elizabelle
@boatboy_srq: They need to clean out the nest of cops and associates who tried to cover this one up. Make an example of them.
Cheap Jim, formerly Cheap Jim
@Tommy: Certainly no one will argue with you. You’ve made it clear that you are armed and dangerous.
Violet
@Tommy: I will argue with you on that point. Lethal force should be the very last resort. There are many options before that.
Mike J
@Violet: I haven’t seen any indication that the press ever talked to any witnesses. I wonder where they got that line. From the cops?
boatboy_srq
@Elizabelle: Agreed. But “need to do” and “will likely do” are not the same thing – and I for one fully expect SC to do whatever it can NOT to do what’s actually healthy here (if only to p!ss off Libruls who think Those People deserve things like due process).
Tommy
It is a sad, sad day when I get an email like this as a LSU grad:
In the city I got my Masters. My father his PhD. Where I was born. A place I dream about, in a good way, we are begging for money. Let’s see how this works out for you Jindal. Next to Tulane, gut the highest education place in your state.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Tommy:
You should probably stop talking now.
Violet
@Mike J: Don’t know. Here’s the article the quote is from.http://www.abcnews4.com/story/28725562/coroner-identifies-man-shot-killed-by-north-charleston-police-officer
Elizabelle
@boatboy_srq: That was a really interesting article.
That’s horrendous. The governor did the right thing. People need to be safe at rest stops.
This case dealt with the shooting of a British man by a group of 4 teenaged boys. Who are still in jail; the shooter is eligible for parole in 2025 (with good behavior) and sounds like he’s making progress on changing.
I remember the rental car companies changing the way they identified their car fleets, because criminals were targeting tourists in obvious rental vehicles. They would tail them from near airports.
Mike J
@Violet: Related story:
So they have one witness who didn’t see any struggle for the taser.
NotMax
@Tommy
So the doctrine of proportionate response is totally jettisoned, eh?
CONGRATULATIONS!
You remember when they put the officers on trial for beating the shit out of Rodney King and they walked?
That’s what’s going to happen here. He will walk.
Then the inevitable and ineffective federal civil rights charges and a civil suit are going to have to happen to achieve any semblance of justice at all. However, they cannot name this man forever that which he is: murderer.
However, his past is going to follow him around. Ghosts are a lot harder to shake these days, thanks to the unforgetting memory of the internet.
Tommy
@Cheap Jim, formerly Cheap Jim: What the fuck. I don’t own a gun. Fired one once and didn’t like it and said I’d never do it again. Could not pay me to buy a gun.
That maybe is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard said here about me.
Elizabelle
@boatboy_srq: That may be.
NYTimes article says North Charleston is 47% black, 37% white, and the police force is 80% white. Stuff like that has to change — fast. By court or federal order.
And perhaps there should be a preference for older, better trained officers to remain, vs. the War on Terror-era age patriots age cohort who seem to be causing a lot of the trouble now. Use military tactics on a civilian population.
Bring back community policing. Bonus: it helps with fighting terror: eyes on the street will get a sense of trouble brewing and unusual patterns.
PS: Would it surprise you that Bush the Lesser got rid of Community Policing? It was a Clinton era program. That was working, apparently.
Dave
@Tommy: Let me posit something here. When you were speaking about “grab something from my belt get shot” were you speaking in a third person hypothetical? Were you trying to voice the likely police attitude (and it’s pretty much a line I’ve heard directly from police; I don’t agree with it)? Because I think people are reacting as if you are making the claim for yourself. Hence the hostility to the post.
Tommy
@Paul in KY: @Mnemosyne (tablet): If you shoot somebody in the back you are an asshole. They are running away. That is not somethig you do. Period!
Elizabelle
Another thing: Britain has a lot of public cameras, all over the place.
Maybe we need that too. I can hear the libertarians roaring now, but it would be helpful in urban/suburban areas and at places of business. We seem to be a more violent society than the UK even dreams of. (Even given “the troubles” in Northern Ireland and the prevalence of actual Scotch-Irish all over the place.)
We have so many firearms. Why not cameras so we can get justice once those weapons are used? Maybe there being cameras around, and you’re not sure exactly where, would be a deterrent.
Mandalay
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
If past performance is anything to go by, you may well be right:
And here’s the breakdown of the data (for 2010 through 2014):
Gin & Tonic
@Tommy: I believe he was speaking as hypothetically as you were when you wrote: “I am a cop, you try to take away anything I have on my belt, like a taser, you are going to get shot.”
NonyNony
@Tommy:
You honestly think that a cop should shoot an unarmed man in the back while he’s running away when the crimes he’s accused of are a) having a broken tail light b) having an outstanding warrant due to unpaid child support and c) struggling with a cop who was harassing him and apparently kicked it up to trying to taze/shoot him?
Shot in the back while running away. It used to be that if we were talking about anything other than an escaped murderer “everyone would agree” that the cops shouldn’t be shooting them in the back while running away. They’re running away! They’re not a threat at that point – you put out an APB and get a warrant out for their arrest and they’re going to get caught and put in jail. The very idea that you would need to shoot him in the back – even if he was in an unsuccessful struggle for your gun moments earlier – is so outrageously immoral I can’t even fathom it.
Amir Khalid
@Tommy:
So what were you saying #23, exactly?
Violet
@Tommy: Not sure why you are surprised. You said:
You indicate you are armed and will shoot.
Mandalay
@Elizabelle:
Can you clarify what you mean by that?
boatboy_srq
@Elizabelle: The right thing here would have been to require things like background checks on firearms purchases, assault weapons regulations/prohibitions, etc. The only thing FL did was put more guns in public places (“good guy with a gun” tactics) – which while at first a State Trooper role, quickly devolved into “some old fart in a security uniform and packing heat” (which is far less comforting, effective, or free from ridiculously bad behavior on the part of the uniformed staffer). At least, unlike PA, the FL rest stops are still open and drivers aren’t required to find some truck stop or Chik-fil-a (where they’ll need to buy something) when they need a break.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Violet:
Tommy left off the crucial word “if” since he is not actually a cop. But that sentence still says that it’s A-OK to shoot an unarmed man in the back as he runs away from you as long as you claim he tried to grab a non-lethal weapon from you.
WaterGirl
@Tommy: Count me as officially glad you are not a cop. May I suggest that you re-read the words you wrote and really consider what you have said.
I reach for anything on your belt, and the first thing you do is shoot me? God help us all.
Dave
@Mandalay: Probably referring to the something I came across in “Albion’s Seed’ Scotch-Irish were one of the four early waves of settlers (obviously not counting natives). The Scotch-Irish were the most honor culture bound and had highest rates of violence and that culture is still prevalent in much of America’s makeup. I’m not sure how valid that is but “Albion’s Seed” was a pretty damned good book that straddles the serious history and accessible history boundary pretty well.
Violet
@Mike J: Interesting. Thanks for the link. I think the cops’ stories are going to continue to unravel.
Tommy
@Amir Khalid: @Violet: I hope I was clear. If you get to the point you try to take away something on my belt, like my gun, I’d shot you. I can’t even envision a world where I would try this. Try it and you will get killed. If people do not get this then I am at a loss.
Mike in NC
@David in NY: Charleston has it’s charms but under no circumstances should anybody ever travel to Columbia, SC. It has roughly the appeal of North Korea in the dead of winter and to get there you need to drive down the Strom Thurmond Highway.
JaneE
Can we start sending police recruits to Great Britain for training? Or just about anywhere in Europe? They seem to be able to catch criminals without killing them, and can get mentally ill people off the streets without killing them either, across the pond. Yes, police need to know how to shoot people, but it surely can’t be the only thing they are taught to do in any situation. A little psychological testing to weed out the racists and sociopaths wouldn’t be a bad thing either.
Elizabelle
@Mandalay: Snarking, Mandalay.
Cracker Culture meme. The notion that a lot of the honor killings business found in Appalachian folkways is there because of Scotch-Irish immigrants.
Scotch-Irish is the heritage of a lot of Southern whites, but we’ve got a body count their ancestors could only dream of. Because we threw slavery, on the mainland, into the mix.
Gin & Tonic
@Mike in NC: I used to have to go there regularly for work when I was otherwise based in NY. If people from NY asked about it, I’d say it was like Albany without the charm, just warmer.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Mandalay: I live in the same sort of town, granted, it’s on the other side of the country and people are a lot different, but interestingly, the police and the license to kill they’re given are exactly the same. If not worse.
The only cop that was ever convicted in this town of murder was found guilty by the state, as the city wouldn’t even charge him.
WaterGirl
@Violet: I read it as a hypothetical – that was shorthand for “If I am a cop”. I still thought it was an awful comment and a terrible way to view the world.
Tommy
@WaterGirl: I don’t need to reread what I wrote.
When was the last time you went for a cops belt. His taser, gun. Pretty sure he/she would not let you do that. But what do I know.
Mandalay
@Elizabelle: Gotcha – it whooshed over me.
cmorenc
@JPL:
This is pure speculation on my part, but one plausible theory of why the Cardiologist/homeowner was so uncooperative with the police attempting initial investigation the afternoon the shots were fired is that he’s trying to protect a wayward live-at-home son he knows was likely behind the incident, trying to delay more substantial police investigation until he can help the boy get his story straight and dispose of incriminating evidence. The interesting part is why (in the face of such non-cooperation) is why the police were so deferential, instead of immediately obtaining a warrant to search for shell casings or other evidence. Again, this is all pure speculation on my part, but it makes more sense than a cardiologist taking such reckless pot-shots at strangers making no attempt to land the boat near his place, with so much to lose if he hits someone or it all goes wrong.
Dave
@Tommy: Sorry you lose me here. Gun I get. Even belt in the moment I can see though not an instant lethal force thing for me. However once someone is disengaged and running and they don’t have your gun you lose the moral right in my eyes (now I know the law would back the office in a shoot in this but the too easy use of lethal force has to go but that’s an issue at many levels individual, department, local and national culture and attitudes). If someone isn’t an immediate threat killing them is not acceptable in my eyes.
Cervantes
@Mandalay:
Noticed that, too.
WaterGirl
@Tommy: I’m pretty sure that the average cop is a lot bigger than me and is a lot stronger than me and has training that I have never had.
So yeah, if I reach for something on their belt, I expect that they should overpower me using skills related to strength and training. And if I get away, they should chase me until they either catch me or I get away.
But shoot me, an unarmed person who reached for something on their belt? That’s crazy.
Jerzy Russian
@Tommy: Your writing is often not clear. It was not obvious that your comment about being a cop was a hypothetical.
On the topic of having someone grabbing something from your belt if you are a cop, wouldn’t it be easier to use your nightstick or your maglight (the large flashlights with 5 D-cell batteries) and hit the guy a few times with it? If you fire a gun during a struggle, you might not have good aim.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Tommy:
So therefore the murder of Mr. Scott is A-OK with you. After all, he (allegedly) tried to grab the Taser from the cop, so naturally the cop shot him in the back 5 times as he ran away. You see no problem with this.
Elizabelle
@boatboy_srq: Gonna agree to disagree here.
The NRA and their legislative minions can be counted on to water down any effective gun purchaser screening. (I think we’re seeing so many killings by cop because they’re afraid for their lives in such a heavily armed society. Thanks, NRA!)
Further, in the cases we were discussing, you had armed, underaged people (teenagers) acting as predators. Obviously, guns did not belong in their hands. But they were there.
I am good with armed law enforcement in rest stops, where I might have to stop in the middle of the night, or want to take a nap safely, so I can drive on.
Have I missed a rash of killings by rent a cops at rest stops? Maybe so … I do know state budget cuts have made it harder and harder to find open state-run rest stops, when you need them.
This is a huge issue for truckers, with mandated rest breaks and not as many safe or free options for taking them.
scav
@Dave: There is, however, the need to clearly, in the head, distinguish the culture from the bloodline, the genetics. (The “Seed” title plays into the similar ambiguity.) There’s certainly also been a lot of theorizing about the honor-bound cultural explanation of Southern culture, but not all the southern bloodlines are Scotch-Irish.
Beyond the simple shooting, there is also the important chilling evidence of chronic indifference to the person’s well-being after the event. Kid left in the street for hours. Not attempts to revive in NY, or here, Throwing the sister into handcuffs or whatever in Ohio. Getting back to cultural explanations, this does seem to a police culture (clearly widespread) of fundamental indifference to certainly a subset, potentally all, of those of us being (ahem) protected and served. The tendency toward lying on record is fairly widely documented at this too.
Patricia Kayden
@Elizabelle: Nah, I don’t think we’ll see justice on this one even with the video. There was a video for the Eric Garner case and for the Oscar Grant case and neither resulted in convictions, if my memory is correct.
I’m glad that a video was made for this case simply because it proves how easy it is for Cops to lie and walk away from murders. Even if the Cop gets off, at least we know that he and many others routinely lie about their interactions with Black males.
Good for whoever videotaped this and provided it to the family and media. It has changed the way this cold-blooded killing would have otherwise been handled.
Patricia Kayden
@Violet: You mean the other lying Cops? They should be punished too.
Mandalay
@Jerzy Russian:
And even if there is no struggle, you might not have a good aim.
Slager fired eight shots in the video. Four hit Scott in the back, one in the ear, and three missed.
rk
I wonder how many such shootings are covered up? How on earth will we ever know. This case is so clear cut, Tamir Rice was also clear cut. But without videos we’d never have found out. But does anyone have any idea how many cases there have been where the police version of a killing has been disputed?
Citizen_X
@JaneE:
We should test active cops for steroid abuse while we’re at it.
NorthLeft12
@Paul in KY:
Based on the last few years [decades?], I would say there are a large number of cops that would disagree with that statement. And unfortunately, most of the prosecutors and juries too.
Violet
@Tommy:
You are not even remotely clear. You say:
1. If you someone tries to take away something–anything?–on your belt you will shoot them. Or only if they try to take away your gun on your belt will you shoot them? Unclear.
2. You cannot envision a world where you would try the above.
3. If someone tries it they will get killed. By you? In your world where you can’t imagine it?
4. If people don’t get the above, then you are at a loss.
I do not follow your statements at all and I don’t “get it.” The best I can surmise is you are playing an internet tough guy who doesn’t carry a gun and is only imagining what you might do if someone reached for your belt. You, who say you don’t carry a gun, would use your nonexistent gun to shoot and kill them? How does that work?
I really don’t understand what you are saying at all.
Chyron HR
@Tommy:
But, Tommy, this policeman was suspiciously in the same room as a dead body. How can you deny the overwhelming evidence that he’s a murderer?
Tommy
@Jerzy Russian: Sorry I am not more clear, and I mean that truly. Hit me in the head with your flashlight. Again and again. Don’t shot me.
I’ve watched this video and the poor dude is running away. Shot in the back. Dad said you don’t do shit like that. Only a coward shots some in the back.
Violet
@Chyron HR: Technically not a room. A field. Not sure that counts.
muddy
@Violet: I think the part he can’t imagine is grabbing at the cops belt.
He does imagine that anyone who does so is subject to the death penalty apparently.
jibeaux
Listen to the latest episode of the podcast called Serial for another interesting story. The mom of the police victim had to fight her way up to the SCOTUS just on police immunity. The old “hands going to the waistband” story.
Elizabelle
Here’s reporting from the local paper, the Charleston Post and Courier. Over 1300 reader comments, too.
Violet
@Tommy: So after saying if someone reaches for something on your belt you will shoot them, you now say:
Which one is it? Someone reaching for your belt will get shot by you or you will hit them in the head with your flashlight? Or maybe it changes if you are the one getting shot or beaten on the head by the flashlight?
None of this is clear.
scav
@Chyron HR: Wait, now I’m confused, wasn’t that evidence of the necessary guilt of the owner of the room or property?!
AxelFoley
@Tommy:
Wow. I mean…fucking wow.
Violet
@Patricia Kayden: Yeah, for sure. I’m curious about the second cop seen in the video right after the shooting. It seems like that officer might have some idea of what happened, but it’s not clear where they were during the shooting. I would expect they’ve lawyered up. And the other officers that show up later taking statements and all–did they lie? Did they just record what the murdering cop said? What about the medical examiner’s report? So many opportunities for cover up
muddy
@Tommy:
Good thing you had a strong respectable dad to teach you this. My dad never mentioned it, so I’ve been confused about it all my life.
Cervantes
@Violet:
Idiosyncratic use of pronouns — shifts in perspective within paragraphs, sometimes even within sentences.
Unmarked shifts from descriptive to prescriptive and back.
I’ll stop there.
Elizabelle
@rk: Obviously, we need a record of officer-involved shootings.
Which the [mostly GOP] powers that be show no interest in mandating through legislation. Local, state or federal.
Just like there is no national or state registry of gun-involved injuries and death, which would be extremely useful (although not to the gun lobby).
jibeaux
@jibeaux:
dammit not Serial, Criminal.
NorthLeft12
One other commonality of all the videos that I have seen where police have shot or somehow injured a suspect is the complete lack of care and compassion for the person.
The suspect is usually handcuffed [while dying or severely injured] and the cop(s) usually stand around until the ambulance shows up. An extremely cold and callous response. I don’t expect the cop to start crying but how about checking the guy and applying some first aid to make sure he survives?
After rereading my comment, it is possible that the suspect’s survival is pretty much the last thing on the police officer’s mind.
Elizabelle
Do you think we’re just becoming more aware of the law enforcement on civilian (usually black) violence because social media makes it easier to record and disseminate?
Or are we seeing an actual uptick of violence? If so, why?
I am wondering if this SC episode will spur our illustrious Senate to schedule a confirmation vote for Loretta Lynch. In the hope (for some of them) that it will take her time to come up to speed on situations like the Walter Scott murder while fleeing by police.
Because you know Eric Holder and his staff are watching events in North Charleston (and elsewhere) intently.
Further, I would love if AG Holder ends up heading a national review board on police violence against community members. Once he’s had a well-deserved rest.
Violet
@scav: No, it could be the person renting, as in the original case where the obviously guilty party was renting the apartment. I don’t think we’ve determined if someone is guilty when they’re in a field with a dead body, as in this case. Hmmm…makes me wonder about visiting cemeteries. Is anyone who does guilty of murder? So confusing!
blueskies
@Tommy: Please, please retire from the force. We really don’t want you, nor do we need you.
You aren’t even part of the problem. You ARE the problem.
WaterGirl
@muddy: That’s exactly what he’s saying. Tommy would never grab for the cop’s belt. So if you’re stupid enough to grab for the cop’s belt, it’s perfectly acceptable for the cop to shoot you without even trying to overpower you in some other way.
I’m a cop. You grab for my belt. I get to shoot you, and you deserve it because you were so stupid (or disrespectful) that you grabbed for my belt.
That’s what Tommy is saying.
Violet
@NorthLeft12: Agreed. It’s bone-chillilng to see the callous disregard for the victims. I thought I saw the murdering officer put two fingers to the neck of the victim to check for a pulse at some point. Maybe the officer decided he was dead so why bother. Ugh. Horrible.
@Elizabelle: I think we’re more aware because most people carry around a camera and video recorder on their phones at all times. Violence against non-whites by police officers has been happening for as far back as you can imagine. But white people don’t want to think about it. It takes actual video to bring it to the forefront.
That being said, I do think that the militarization of police departments has made everything worse. I also think having a black president has made a lot of white people crazy and I think that comes out in all sorts of way. Maybe one of those ways is white cop violence against black people–I don’t know.
germy shoemangler
@WaterGirl: Do we even know he grabbed anything from the cop? Or did he just struggle while being tased and then run?
The cop’s version was disproved by the video. And dropping the taser next to the handcuffed, dying body proves it was a setup.
Amir Khalid
@blueskies:
Tommy’s not really a cop; he’s just saying what he would do if he were, and you reached for something on his belt. (ETA: his first instinct would be to shoot you.) At least, I think that’s what he’s saying. It can be hard to tell with Tommy.
retr2327
@NorthLeft12: For what it’s worth, it’s pretty well established that the police cannot just shoot fleeing suspects in the back, unless those suspects are dangerous. See Tennessee v. Garner (under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may not use deadly force to prevent escape unless the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others). So shooting a fleeing suspect in the context of a traffic stop, with or without an outstanding warrant for failure to pay child support, is simply not okay.
But note that this does not mean the police will be convicted of a criminal offense; just that they can (and should) be sued for wrongly seizing someone (use of deadly force against a subject is the most intrusive type of seizure possible) under the Fourth Amendment and 42 U.S.C. 1983.
germy shoemangler
@Elizabelle: I doubt there’s been an uptick of cop violence. I think cellphone cameras are capturing it more. Everybody’s got a cellphone and every cellphone user is a potential cinematographer.
I used to play music with a guy whose brother had been killed by a policeman. His brother was mentally disabled. Certainly didn’t have a gun. The police report said he was armed. They dropped a gun next to his body. It destroyed the family. My friend was in pain, his mother was in pain. This was over thirty years ago.
Cops must be pissed at all the cameras aimed at them.
Violet
@retr2327: As an example, Tommy says that it’s okay for a cop to shoot someone if they reach for something on the cop’s belt. That’s exactly the thinking that the defense will be looking for in jurors. Then it’s a simple step to showing the cop thought the victim was dangerous. So he shot him, even though it was in the back and the suspect was fleeing. Cop thought the guy had his gun or taser or another gun or whatever. Armed and dangerous, must be stopped at all costs. Safety of community. Etc.
WaterGirl
@germy shoemangler: In my comments above,I was just trying to clarify what I believed Tommy was saying.
I could not bring myself to watch the video of a man being murdered in cold blood.
But from what others are saying who have watched the video, including the town’s mayor, I completely agree that the cop’s version was disproved by the video. It makes me sick to see all these black men being murdered by the police, and it makes me even sicker to realize that this has likely been going on for decades. And not only did I not realize it, our entire society has let it go on for all that time.
Violet
@germy shoemangler: Hence the attempts to pass laws saying people can’t take pictures or videos of cops. They’re starting with the distance from the cop–make it illegal to video or take pictures of a police officer doing their duty from less than X feet away. It’s a way to dissuade people from taking videos for fear of being arrested and also to keep things less clear because the camera is further away.
germy shoemangler
@Violet: The video shows the cop dropping the taser next to the body.
@WaterGirl: I agree. Here’s something I hadn’t considered: The NRA is always raving about the importance of an armed populace to protect against tyranny. I believe a populace armed with video cameras is more dangerous to tyranny.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Tommy: Abstract language is not your strong suit, I’m guessing.
I disagree with you because of the whole proportionate response thing. If the other person in an encounter tries to take, for instance, the handcuffs from an LEO’s belt, shooting in not an appropriate response.
RaflW
Part of what is very disturbing to me (and there are many aspects to be disturbed about), but the trend I see in the Walter Scott case, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, and many others – and seeing the blatant lies of up to three officers in the Scott case – is in failing to render any medical aid to the person shot.
It is crystal clear that today’s cops are trained to just kill. This goes to the top of multiple police departments. There is no effort being made to shoot to disable. And when an alleged criminal is shot (or suffocated, etc), the reaction of the cops is to stand around, call for a meat wagon, and wait. It’s disgusting.
The utter lack of any human compassion for the person shot is one of many tells that these men (and it’s almost always male cops, innit?) are not here to protect and serve. They are here to enforce some rigid sense of order, and to hell with the consequences for human life.
I hope this cop gets convicted. But I also think chiefs of police, training academies, the whole damn system is indicted in all these cases. It is far too routine for this to be written off as ‘bad apple’ cops.
Enough.
Pogonip
I am concerned about the safety of the guy who took the video.
Amir Khalid
@Violet:
As Pius Thicknesse said in Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear …
RaflW
@Paul in KY:
In my view, is should be policy, nationwide, that in circumstances such as you describe, the force used is one (1) slug to the back of one (1) knee or thigh. Any officer who fires more than one round at a fleeing suspect is being judge and jury, not just keeping the peace (WTF does that mean anymore?…)
WaterGirl
I grew up in the 60s where cops were “pigs” and had a very bad reputation. It seems to me that police departments realized that it’s a big problem if no one trusts you and that the police worked very hard to come back from that.
Just as the CIA had a very bad rap for awhile and reigned itself in and at least tried to color more inside the lines for a very long time. Or at least tried to appear to color more inside the lines. (I am using CIA to refer to the entire security state.)
Now the pendulum has swung again, and cops and the CIA are both completely out of control and they’re so out of control that they can’t even see that they are doing all this stuff right out in the open.
It seems to me that it’s like what happens with psychopaths or sociopaths. I used to laugh at psychological tests where you have to select the answer that best fits your reaction to a particular situation. I would laugh because of course if someone pisses you off while you’re driving you aren’t going to answer that you would ram that person’s car with your car. But as I understand it, if you’re someone who thinks it’s perfectly acceptable to ram that person’s car, then you don’t know that you should never pick that answer.
I think that’s where we are with the cops and the CIA. They’ve been getting away with all this stuff for so long and are so far over the edge they don’t even know there is an edge. Things are really fucked up.
catclub
@Pogonip: I read that he/she gave the video first to the Scott’s lawyer, then lawyer gave it to the NYT, then it went to the police. harassment from cops, but probably not danger.
Elizabelle
@germy shoemangler:
Agreed. Same reasoning behind the freedom of the press.
Although I also think ordinary folks should have some say over their images not being used maliciously (the recent California revenge porn case).
But cameras can keep us safe.
What do you think about more cameras in public places, as in the UK? (And does that sound like serving Rand Paul up with another issue to pontificate on, or what?)
Elizabelle
Bring back community policing.
Violet
@germy shoemangler: Yes, I know that. But the defense will say the cop thought the victim had the taser. Or another weapon. That the victim was armed and dangerous, which is why he shot him. And the defense will be looking for jurors that will buy it.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Violet: Ah, but is it a field in the city where the cop is an employee of the city? He owns the field then, right? Accordingly he has a lot to answer for and should rethink some of his life decisions.
In the case of this specific LEO, that’s quite accurate. But it’s a bit different from corpse in your house.
JPL
@WaterGirl: This happened in GA and the case is still under investigation…
cop shoots unarmed naked man
you might not want to watch
RSA
@Cervantes:
Good summary. Here’s my understanding of what Tommy has said (Tommy, you can correct me if I’m wrong):
If some guy tries to grab something from a cop’s belt, that guy is very likely to get shot, even while running away. The guy is stupid for grabbing. The cop is an asshole for shooting.
There’s textual support for this interpretation, though others are possible.
Calouste
@JaneE:
I guess at least 80% of the US police recruits would be turned away from training in Europe because they are physically or mentally unfit.
japa21
I am not sure Tommy is either justifying the shooting or saying it is okay to shoot someone just because he reaches for something on a ploiceman’s belt. I think (at least I hope) that he is saying this is the thinking of police when they try to justify their own actions and that he wouldn’t reach because of that thinking on the part of police.
Tommy at times does state things in ways that can be misunderstood. But then, we all do at times. If I am wrong, he can correct me.
germy shoemangler
@Elizabelle: I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I hate that cameras are everywhere. I hate that everyone thinks they can snap a photo of anyone they want to mock.
But then someone captures a cop in a lie… and I’m proud of the person with the cellphone.
It’s like twitter. Absolute, useless garbage. And then it’s used to catch some violent homophobes (the young people who went out to dinner, and then afterward beat the crap out of some gay men)
I remember seeing a cartoon somewhere. Back when Andy Warhol’s “15 minutes of fame” quote was circulating. I don’t remember the exact wording; something about trading 15 minutes of fame for a lifetime of surveillance.
Cacti
I give this case about a 50% chance of a hung jury or acquittal.
Pogonip
@catclub: I hope not, BUT if Mr. Video is killed resisting arrest and his phone happens to be lost in the confusion, any defense lawyer will argue that the version those other parties have could have been edited. That original video is likely to be a very strong factor in conviction or acquittal. I think Mr. Video should consider an extended tour of Canada.
JPL
@RSA: That’s how I read his comments but I still don’t think we know what happened during the scuffle. I might change The cop is an asshole for shooting. to The cop is a homicidal maniac.
muddy
@RaflW: I don’t see that anyone needs to be shot in the knee or the leg, and that’s assuming the cop is a good enough shot.
They pulled him over, they have his car. Who cares if he runs away? They can get him afterwards.
germy shoemangler
@Pogonip: Didn’t they go after the Eric Garner videographer?
Cervantes
@JPL:
More horror.
Thanks (you know what I mean).
Violet
@WaterGirl: I’m not sure who the white man speaking is in this picture, whether he’s the mayor or police chief, but I saw a snippet of this press conference on the news this morning. The white guy sounds tired and…disappointed that he’s having to deal with this. But what caught my eye is the African American officer over the white man’s left shoulder (right side of the picture). He had the fingers of his hands together in front of his chest, like forming a tent, and he was side-eyeing the speaker like crazy. He looked like he’d rather be anywhere else but there. I wonder if they made him stand there to have a black man in the photo and he really didn’t have a choice because his boss made him. It sure looked like it. I’ve tried finding the video but I can’t–this picture is the best I can do.
Pogonip
Chill out, folks. For some months now I have been pretty sure that “Tommy,” who has been everywhere and done everything, is just having fun pulling the Balloon Juice leg. Whoever he really is, I doubt he’s a danger to anyone. (He might be Doug J.)
scav
@Calouste: There’s the faint bliss induced by not knowing the details of those handy forces to be factored in. The GB guys in blue with belts-not-to-be-touched have their own set of issues with violence, lying, bribes, a spot of widespread ignoring child prostitution/abuse on the boil now, clearly I read the Guard and bbc too much.
WaterGirl
Dear Police Officers Everywhere,
If you hate the people you are policing, you should not be a cop.
If you are fearful of the people you are policing, you should not be a cop.
If you don’t feel in control of a situation unless you pull your gun, you should not be a cop.
If you are angry much of the time, you should not be a cop.
If you feel your job is to control, rather than to protect and serve, you should not be a cop.
If you view the people you are policing as objects rather than people, you should not be a cop.
If you feel you are better than or different from most of the people you are policing, you should not be a cop.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@RaflW: I agree with the rest, but sadly, there is no way to “shoot to disable”. Most of you know I’m a shooter. There is no way I could guarantee I could hit a guy in the leg, or arm, or hand, unless he’s standing completely still and is ten feet or less from me. If they’re moving, the only place you’re going to be able to hit them is to shoot for what they euphemistically call “center body mass”, and those shots don’t usually disable people. They kill them.
“Shoot to disable” is what the fucking Taser’s for, but apparently to most cops it’s simply a portable torture device.
Frankensteinbeck
@WaterGirl:
I disagree with Tommy, but there is definitely a lack of understanding here. He means that during the struggle for a weapon on his belt, he would use deadly force to defend himself. This does not include shooting the person who attacked him after they disengaged. He is presenting this whole case as a hypothetical, because he is not a policeman with a gun. He is also asserting that you would be crazy to try to grab a policeman’s weapon.
These statements do not strike me as insane or evil, but they do strike me as wrong, based on an ignorance of options. A policeman is a professional, and should be trained in less deadly responses to threats. That they are trained to escalate immediately now is half of the problem. The other half is racism, and those two feed each other into a murderous monster.
Patricia Kayden
@Violet: But he was running away and was shot in the back. Sorry to say this, Violet, because I know you’re a lovely person but a racist jury doesn’t need any excuse to find the Cop not guilty. Racists don’t see Blacks as human beings so if he gets a good enough lawyer, this Cop will probably walk away. I think we need to stop fooling ourselves into thinking that racists need excuses to mistreat Blacks. They don’t. And protests and riots won’t change anything either.
Chris
@Elizabelle:
I think a lot of it is simply the system working the way it’s intended to. The police is expected to protect good society from bad people, bad people are the nonwhites and their race traitor friends, and if some of the people who’re killed don’t happen to be a threat at that particular moment, that’s just the cost of doing business. We don’t see it that way, but I think a huge chunk of the population does.
Petorado
The victim was pulled over for the non-violent offense of a broken taillight. He ran away on foot. He left his vehicle behind. The cops would be able to track down where the man lived. Why on earth is the “crime” of having a broke taillight one punishable by lethal force? The cops could have simply come to the man’s home with a ticket for the taillight and a summons for fleeing the scene.
dexwood
@JaneE:
True. That’s how it should work, psychological testing to weed out applicants is part of the procedure in my town, Albuquerque. The problem is, the testing was thrown out or ignored in recent years to bump up the number of cops on the street. Yea, that worked well. The recent policy changes also require cops to have their lapel cameras on for every encounter with citizens. That, too, is still being ignored by some cops without consequences. Malfunction, like “I feared for my life”, have become the new cop mantras.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@WaterGirl: All this is negated by the brutal fact that if you want a middle-class lifestyle and one of the few guaranteed retirement plans left to ANYONE, one of the very few choices you have is to…be a cop.
ETA: ESPECIALLY if you’re a vet of our new Forever War.
germy shoemangler
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Union Strong!
Mike E
Wait…is someone wrong/unclear/trolling on the internet? Give back my subscription!!
Violet
@Patricia Kayden: I’m not sure what me being a lovely person has to do with anything but thank you for the compliment!
I understand that racist jurors and juries will find a black man guilty even when he’s an obvious victim. I was merely tying together Tommy’s statement that if someone reached for his belt, he’s justified in killing them with the type of thinking that the defense will be looking for. Tommy claims to be a liberal and yet he thinks that’s fine. Imagine what non-liberal thinking on these issues is like. It’s not a big step for a defense attorney to claim “self defense” for the cop and all sorts of people will side with the cop.
Despite the video it’s going to be hard to convict because there are so many things the cop can claim. The fact that he lied initially may make it harder but we’ll see. It’s encouraging anyway that he’s been charged with murder. Didn’t think I’d see that in South Carolina.
Karen in GA
You know how this will play out, right?
“Was he running towards the other cop? I bet he was. I bet the cop that shot him was protecting his partner.” Soon to become an undisputed fact regardless of whether it’s actually true.
“But what happened before the guy started recording? I notice the guy didn’t record when the black guy was doing something wrong that warranted him getting stopped in the first place!” Deflection, with added “kill the messenger.” Plus, of course, the black guy deserves to die for busted headlight — higher standards for black people than whites.
“Traffic stops are dangerous! Have sympathy for the poor cop!” The boo hoo defense.
And of course:
“Why should the cop risk it? A taser couldn’t subdue this guy!” Yay for bonus animal/monster implications.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck:
I completely agree. Unless you are ambushed out of the blue, if you’re a cop and you’re reaching for your gun, you’ve already lost control of the situation, which should be considered a failure on your part.
A lot of cops now are bullies and cowards and sociopaths and they should have never been allowed on a police force. And all the ugliness that has been unleashed because we have a black president? That has been an eye opener for me.
I really think that Barack Obama running for president, and then being elected, opened up a real chasm in this country. So much ugliness. If sunlight is the best disinfectant, it had better start working soon. Because it feels like this ugliness (against black people and poor people and women and and and) is reaching the boiling point and I have no idea how to even begin to fight its pervasiveness.
Suzanne
@Tommy: I won’t argue with you on that point. None of us need to hear you any further on this issue.
Steeplejack
@RaflW:
Sorry, but we have got to let go of this movie-TV-cop-show bullshit that you can “wing” someone at will. It’s bullshit. Experience tells us the opposite. Even when cops—presumably trained (or semi-trained) marksmen—are trying to shoot with deadly force, they miss a lot of the time. Amadou Diallo, the black man killed by New York City police officers in 1999, was hit by 19 bullets—but the officers fired 41. And he was standing in front of his apartment building vestibule (in low-light conditions, admittedly) with at least one officer close enough to trip on the stairs.
To be clear, I agree completely with the idea that cops shouldn’t be shooting at all at fleeing “perps” who don’t represent an immediate physical threat to them or to the public.
Amir Khalid
@Pogonip:
Did you see the last thread, where Tommy claimed to be the first person born male in his family in four generations? I’m still trying to work that one out.
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: Agree with every word.
Violet
@Amir Khalid: I missed that! He usually claims that his niece is the first person born female in his family in multiple generations.
Cervantes
@Chris:
I think this is a big part of it. It’s like the old saw about your Congressman being a corrupt jerk whereas mine is the salt of the earth. If I, juror, punish this policeman appropriately for what he has done, then my policeman may be less likely to defend me successfully when I need him to. Racism is not even a necessary element in this construct, though it may well be present.
Pogonip
@Amir Khalid: They’re a family of Aphid-Americans!
I hope Tommy doesn’t quit. I get a kick out of his leg-pulling.
BobS
@David in NY: Charleston is a pretty place just about any time of year.
Regarding the display of the flag of treason in the college football crazy states of South Carolina and Mississippi (where it’s incorporated into the design of the state flag), I’d wager it would take just a recruiting season or two of black players boycotting the 2 big state universities in those states for their political leaders to change things.
RaflW
@Elizabelle:
I thought that the GOP was explicitly working to prevent any such data from being compiled by DOJ. Or did I just imagine that they’re that evil?
Cervantes
@WaterGirl:
As you know, both chasm and ugliness have been there for centuries.
Cacti
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. The problem is that American LEOs are trained to reflexively draw their guns at the slightest hint of trouble. The solution is training cops to de-escalate situations, rather than instantly turn them into life or death ones.
Case in point, in Germany (population 80.6 million), there were about 6.8 fatal police shootings per year in the enitre country from 1998-2014. In the State of North Rhine-Westphalia, “Don’t Shoot!” is the title of the first weapons training course that police academy students receive.
Compare that to Houston, Texas (population 2.2 million), where they averaged 13 fatal police shootings per year from 2008-2012, just by the Houston Police Department.
The problem isn’t that they’re not shooting to wound. It’s that they’re shooting too often.
Pogonip
@CONGRATULATIONS!: A while back, shoot-to-disable came up on bayourenaissanceman. He posted a link to a video of a guy being shot in the leg and bleeding to death in 4 minutes. (I don’t know where it happened, I didn’t recognize the language or the uniform of the soldier [?] who shot him.). Shoot-to-disable just isn’t practical.
Elizabelle
@Petorado: Very true.
And a tragic irony of the Walter Scott murder: he was mostly in court on child support violations. His brother thinks Mr. Scott fled because he did not want to get jailed. (NYTimes story)
And now, by virtue of a murder captured on videotape, the Police Department may end up funding Mr. Scott’s children’s support and — I hope — very good educational opportunities — for many, many years.
Because even if some halfwit jury acquits shooter Slager of murder charges, the Police Department is going to pay through the nose in civil court. Do you think?
From the Charleston Post and Courier:
Aleta
Mr. Scott wasn’t killed because he was running. He was running to escape a killer.
JPL
@WaterGirl: For years the right wing radio stations have talked about the need to rid the country of political correctness and common decency went out the window also.
RaflW
@germy shoemangler:
Which is why cops so often try to seize cameras, delete photos, arrest bystanders who are taking pics or video. Who needs a constitution when you are a hopped up cop?
I’m thankful that a state is considering this:
germy shoemangler
@Cacti: Case in point, in Germany (population 80.6 million), there were about 6.8 fatal police shootings per year in the enitre country from 1998-2014
I tried that argument with a co-worker once. His response: “They don’t have as many blacks in Germany.”
This is how they think. Most of them won’t say it out loud (unless they’re with like-minded folk).
Elizabelle
Did FYWP just eat my comment?
Posted about Walter Scott being in (or avoiding) court a lot on child support issues.
Barbara
@Violet: But the video shows that was wrong, or incomplete. “Eyewitness” testimony of events that happen over the course of seconds, not minutes, are not trustworthy. They just happen too fast and are actually over by the time your brain has registered the need to pay close attention. So much of what you thought you saw is influence by what you are primed to think should have happened. Your brain fills in details that your eyes did not actually register.
catclub
@RaflW:
They are too busy with that promised fix to Roberts’ breaking of the voting rights act.
Belafon
@Karen in GA: Someone posted a gofundme to pay for the cops defense. It was taken down after the video surfaced. I think what the video changes is this: It doesn’t at all match what the police reported first, and it shows the cop moving the taser so that it was near the man who was killed.
Based on what happened in NY, I’m not holding my breath for a conviction, but I think the cop’s story being so different from the video, and the evidence tampering, has made this one different. This is the kind of video that will start to make people wonder about other reports. If he is convicted, I suspect we’ll here a lot of “one bad apple” statements from police departments.
Steeplejack
@Pogonip:
Eh, my take is that the “Tommy” blog persona—not the real-life person—is pretty far out on the autism/Asberger’s spectrum. True or not, it helps me calibrate some of his comments.
Note: I have similar “it helps me calibrate” diagnoses for several other commenters. LOL.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Pogonip: I saw that. It was Brazil. And it took him a lot longer than 4 minutes to die (the original is about 26 minutes long) and it’s just appalling to watch the treatment both the civilians and police dish out to criminals there. Frankly, at least the cops are professional about it. The people are assholes. I know crime is totally out of control and it’s one of the most dangerous places in the world that’s not actually a war zone, but seeing people walk by and make fun of and taunt the guy as he’s bleeding to death, and everyone refusing to call an ambulance, well, it’s a glimpse of what America could become and I want nothing to do with that place or the people who live there.
Elizabelle
Here’s a more detailed account of the child support issues, and Mr. Scott’s injuries, from the New York Times.
Matt McIrvin
@Tommy: I think the problem in this whole discussion is that, when you talk about the police officer’s behavior, it’s not clear whether you’re speaking descriptively or normatively.
I mean, I think we’ve all gotten used to the idea that, when interacting with police, you basically need to treat the officer as a deadly wild animal who will kill you if provoked. But the question is: should police behave that way? Is this just the way of the world, or is it a disturbing American pathology?
There are countries where police are armed, but discharge their weapons so rarely that the bullets expended on the job by the entire national force in a year are fewer than what often gets fired here in a single incident. These countries typically have lower crime rates than the US to begin with… but the discrepancy is so great that it can’t be the whole explanation. These places still have mentally ill or drug-addled or desperate people who will struggle with cops, but the norm isn’t to shoot them.
Steeplejack
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Amen. The big selling point of tasers was “We won’t have to shoot ’em with guns!,” but it doesn’t seem to have reduced that at all. And tasers seem to be used for everything down to minor or momentary “noncompliance.”
Elizabelle
OK. FYWP just ate my comment again, and so some language in the Charleston paper account is the issue.
Here’s how the local paper, the Post and Courier, handled Mr. Scott’s legal history:
Karen in GA
@Belafon:
I don’t know. There have been other videos of police brutality that I thought would finally show how bad things really are, but they ultimately didn’t really accomplish anything. I hope you’re right, but I don’t have a whole lot of faith that justice will be done here. White racist assholes can rationalize anything.
Cacti
@Pogonip:
Yep.
The problem with “shoot him in the leg” is that the thigh is the largest target on the leg, and each thigh has a femoral artery. Nick one of those, and someone will quickly bleed to death without immediate medical attention.
ruemara
@Tommy: stop. talking.
Cervantes
@Steeplejack:
“True or not.” I like that. It’s handy!
Mandalay
@RaflW:
An excellent idea. Sao Paulo recently introduced a law that fines any business that prevents a woman from breastfeeding in public.
Explicitly baking citizens’ rights into law is a good thing.
Violet
@Barbara: I KNOW it’s wrong because of the video. I’m interested in who said it. Who are these witnesses that claim they saw that.
RaflW
@muddy:
Allow me to clarify that I don’t think the cop should fire a shot at the fleeing suspect, but that a single disabling shot would IMO be an acceptable use.
It would seem that the Police Firearms Officers Association is not at all happy about even the suggestion of shot to wound, however. And all us civilians are just hollywood dupes for thinking it could work. It’s a very chilling position paper that I’m sure has been lobbied heavily across the US.
One of the deep tragedies of an out of control NRA is that this level of force-response is at least somewhat understandable given an outrageously heavily armed slice of the populace here. Part of the reason European police officers fire much less, I think, is because their citizens are not nearly so often potentially armed with highly lethal small arms.
The Swiss, for example, have a strong tradition of armed citizens, but as I understand it, the vast, vast majority are long guns, not Glocks in waistbands.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Elizabelle:
This came up the last time we were talking about mentally ill people being killed by police. Apparently, reporting police shootings to the DOJ is optional, so no one really knows how many there are.
schrodinger's cat
@Steeplejack: Do you have a diagnosis for me?
@Pogonip: I have suspected as much. However, I don’t think Tommy is DougJ. Even at his trollish best, DougJ’s grammar and spelling was impeccable. I don’t think DJ would ever confuse shoot and shot.
Cheap Jim, formerly Cheap Jim
@Tommy: You are one of them unarmed cops, then, like in the UK?
Matt McIrvin
@CONGRATULATIONS!: “Shoot to disable” is one of those things that liberals need to learn not to say, because if you utter the phrase in the presence of a Gun Person you have automatically lost the argument on points. It’s worse than calling a magazine a clip.
RaflW
@Cacti: Well when they take 4 or 6 bullets to the torso, as is practice now, they’re dying as they fall to the ground. Four minutes if a shot hits an artery is at least a chance.
And really, there’s far too many cases of 19 or 50 or 80 bullets in cop rampage. So while shot to harm may have carefully crafted lobby-speak reasons to be “impractical”, unloading 8 Glock semi-auto rounds is clearly de minimus to way too many cops and I think its flat out wrong.
ETA: I see CONGRATULATIONS also weighs in, using ‘guarantee’ language. Which is a straw argument. What is the course less likely to end in wrongful death in a fleeing suspect situation? Trying to disable, or just going for broke as is the case now?
boatboy_srq
@Steeplejack:
It’s telling that tasers are so widely used – it’s a reasonable indicator of what would to LEOs be a reason to go for the pistol if the taser weren’t there.
RaflW
@Matt McIrvin: I see. So you’re letting the NRA whackanoodles control the language of acceptable discourse? This is how liberals lose by just agreeing to shut up, I guess. Thanks so much.
muddy
@RaflW: Last summer I called the cops due to threats of violence from a neighbor. Small village in Vermont. When the cop came out, he acted like I was the criminal and began bellowing at me. I told the cop I had to sit down, I was purple and couldn’t breathe well. I’ve got heart failure, and have a defibrillator implanted, which was clearly visible. I headed to my front steps to sit in the shade, this was about 20 feet away. He wouldn’t allow me to go sit. Got mad that I “turned my back” to him. I tell him my disability and point out the device. He says that I am well enough to talk back to him. As though saying you are in distress is the same level of communication as having a serious legal discussion with an officer.
I mean, you’d think they would WANT you to sit down and take a breath and listen calmly. But I was disobedient, and he wasn’t going to let me go sit. After the 3rd time I told him I needed to go and sit down and he said no, I just dropped on my ass to the sidewalk. Now he asks if I need him to call the Rescue. I reply, No, I said I needed to sit, so I did. Of course this is now further disobedience on my part.
I wish now I’d made a big deal and had the ambulance come, but in the moment you aren’t thinking how to jam the asshole up, you are just trying to communicate like an adult and get through the situation. But they come out wanting to jam you up, so they are on top of it. And I was the one to call for help, not the miscreant even.
Mandalay
@Belafon:
The begging bowl moved to indiegogo:
After 13 hours donations amount to a grand total of $10.00.
Violet
@Matt McIrvin:
Many of those countries probably have better health care systems and their mentally ill citizens receive better treatment. I’ve mentioned the mentally ill woman in my neighborhood who we have to call the cops on from time to time. She gets scary, yells at and threatens to murder inanimate objects, swings sticks and other objects and hits things. The cops have told me they can only take her in and hold her for three days. She only gets treatment for that period and goes home with some meds. She needs comprehensive treatment but that isn’t available. So she’s on the street when she’s off her meds. Her family can’t care for her at that point.
AxelFoley
@Violet:
This. All this.
Matt McIrvin
@RaflW: I think that if we’re going to propose something that people with experience with guns say is infeasible, we need to at least have a lot of evidence that it is in fact feasible.
Which I’m not seeing in the “shoot to wound” case: the places where police don’t kill a lot of people are places where they don’t shoot a lot of people.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@muddy:
Yep. I had a similar (though less serious) encounter with an officer I tried to flag down about a homeless man running around with his pants around his ankles (yes, that’s a euphemism). The cop was far more upset that I stepped off the curb to talk to him than he was interested in hearing about what someone else was doing.
It really seems that cops are trained to control a situation, not de-escalate it, and to shoot to kill if they lose control. It attracts the wrong kind of people to policing and leads to situations like this one, where a cop decides that a man deserves to die for the crime of not obeying his commands.
Cacti
@RaflW:
My position is that shoot to kill/shoot to harm is splitting hairs. The problem is shooting too often and too easily. Every shot fired has the potential to kill, whether intended or not. Training LEOs to de-escalate and shoot as a last resort is what will lead to fewer cops drawing their service weapons. And fewer weapons drawn = fewer shooting deaths.
Paul in KY
@NorthLeft12: I also think they are very squeamish about getting any icky body fluids on them.
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: If the weapon (gun) is on the belt, (rightly or wrongly) they are trained that they can NEVER give up that gun. So, if they think you might win, they have to shoot you to keep you from gaining control of the firearm.
Ben
@Roger Moore: The medical examiner would also be named as a co-conspirator in the cover-up of the murder, lose whatever license he has and hopefully, go to jail. He/she would also be liable for major civil damages.
Cervantes
@RaflW:
A big difference is that automatic weapons are banned outright; plus, generally, only people who work in security are allowed to carry their guns around on their person.
Used to be (in Switzerland) you were issued a gun — a pistol or a rifle — when you did your compulsory national service, and then you kept it afterwards. But after a number of mass killings — they have them, too — the law changed to tighten things up a bit: you have to apply for a permit and explain why you want to keep the gun, and even then the supply of ammunition is restricted.
On the other hand, when legislators suggested recently that all these guns be stored not in people’s homes but in a central repository, the proposal did not receive majority support and was defeated.
Steeplejack
@schrodinger’s cat:
Oh, heavens, no! You’re completely normal. Yes. Yes, you are.
Ben
@Elizabelle: Training is part of the issue, but you can’t train a racist officer to be something he/she is not. There are just WAAAAAAY too many cops that are douchebag wannabe’s with a gun and a license to kill. The screening process for cops needs to be revamped nationwide.
Cacti
@Cervantes:
Almost sounds like that “well regulated militia” thing that John Roberts drew a line through when ruling on the Second Amendment.
Steeplejack
@Cacti:
This.
Cervantes
@muddy:
Are you safe now?
Or, at least, safer than you were?
Keith G
@Cervantes: Geaux Tigers!
Elizabelle
@RaflW:
I think that’s exactly what you’re seeing, and a lot of this can be laid at the NRA’s (and their Congressional and state legislature worms’) door.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Cervantes:
The chasm has not always been visible to white people. I think Obama’s election was an eye-opener for many of us.
William Hope Hodgson has a short story called “The Hog” about a guy who is inadvertently calling up one of the Old Ones, and Carnacki almost destroys the world by underestimating the danger. That’s how I’ve started to think of that abyss.
http://www.hypnogoria.com/html/hog.html
Cervantes
@Steeplejack:
Surely you don’t mean “completely normal.”
Surely you mean “exceptional,” and in a good way.
Cckids
@Dave:
This. And even in the hypothetical case that the person was grabbing at a cop’s belt, in order to shoot them , the cop has to have possession of the gun. So the “suspect” doesn’t. So why the need to shoot them? Disrespect? You’re pissed off?
Cervantes
@Keith G:
Missed that. Explicate? (Thanks.)
Violet
@Mandalay: There’s a Facebook page too: https://www.facebook.com/SupportMichaelSlager. Most of the comments are against him and are calling it an attempt at cashing in on a tragedy. Twitter as well. Same thing. The court of public opinion does not seem to be on his side at the moment.
Matt McIrvin
@RaflW: Ah, I think I see the distinction you’re making here: not between “shoot him in the leg” and center-of-mass, but between “shoot, then assess” and continuing to blast away until the gun is empty.
That would definitely reduce the number of needless deaths. But any shot likely to stop somebody has a significant chance of killing them. The key thing is to figure out ways to shoot less.
Paul in KY
@RaflW: I think they should just pursue on foot or let him go & charge with grand theft taser.
muddy
@Cervantes: Thank you for asking, the family in question finally moved away. But there was more than the one episode with the cops behaving badly. I don’t feel at all safe around them and don’t feel that I can ever call for help if I need it in future.
WaterGirl
@Cervantes: I agree that they have been there for centuries. But not in such an obvious, open, blatant in-your-face way.
I was raised in the closest suburb to Chicago, where the only black people I saw were the nice men who worked auto shop across the street from me and the black people I saw on the train or when we went downtown to navy pier or the museums.
There was diversity in my high school – we had that one jewish girl who was also the class president!
I had no idea that the nice guys who worked at the pontiac dealer across the street were only allowed to be there to work.
I didn’t know that either of my parents had an issue with black people until a Sunday afternoon in the summer after my freshman year in college when I told my mom that my (black) friend Jerry from college was coming to pick me up that evening to go hang out. I had no idea that there was a problem until my mom threw the lid (from the pot of boiling potatoes) at me and shrieked that if anyone saw us they would burn down our building. (We owned the neighborhood tavern and lived in the apartments upstairs.)
That was the pivotal day when it came to be that I had to pay for my 3 years of college myself because my mom told me that if I went to hang out with Jerry that she wouldn’t pay for the rest of college. I went, and with the ignorance of the young I had no idea how dangerous that really was to me or my family.
Later that summer, my sister’s best friend in town took in a < one-year-old black foster baby and they burned her garage down.
So I got a lesson in race and ugliness when I was 18. And thanks to watergate, I have been politically engaged since the fall of 1972, but I have never seen ugliness like this.
Elizabelle
Switzerland’s gun policy is SO much smarter than ours. This wiki article is relatively short, and informative.
Among other things: must have a permit to carry loaded guns in public, a good reason for doing so (stated, and plausible), and those permits expire in five years.
Which would be great in this country, if someone suffering from mental illness and cognitive issues, dementia, or who has racked up a lot of legal encounters — domestic violence, aggression in the workplace, antisocial behavior) could be stopped from obtaining a lethal firearm.
Switzerland does not allow the average Joe to walk around with a loaded gun. Period.
Steeplejack
@Cervantes:
But of course. I apologize for not being clear.
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Those are different statements from the one I responded to:
I imagine you see the difference.
Heliopause
The Rodney King verdict spurred several days of riots, and he was merely beaten up. This time a man was plugged in the back eight times, then the killer yells at him as he approaches the body, handcuffs him as he’s bleeding to death, plants evidence, renders no assistance to a dying man, then lies about the whole thing in the report. I’ve got a feeling the whole Rodney King episode will look like a walk in the park if this guy isn’t convicted of something.
Keith G
@Cervantes: If one were to follow my link back to your statement, one would find that it was about a person who a little earlier had mentioned his college career.
I was just being playful snide about a school known more for its parties than its PhDs.
Patricia Kayden
@Aleta: Well said. If the jury sees it that way, we may get justice in this case.
AxelFoley
@RaflW:
And this.
Cervantes
@muddy:
Glad you are safer in that regard.
I wonder where they moved, however.
Might be a good thing, before another need arises, to see what your local options are. Is there someone in City Hall (or the equivalent) you can talk to about your level of discomfort and distrust? Is there a well-trained community-liaison officer you can call for help next time? At the very least, are there good neighbors who could assist in emergencies? (Of course, I hope there is no further need of this sort, but it pays to know where you stand.)
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Violet: Doug J is slipping on consistency. Didn’t someone here do some google work that suggested the facade Doug J created is awfully elaborate with some of its accuracy. And a new word seems to have crept into the vocabulary (fuck)!
Also, too I suspect I’m spending far too much time on energy following these patterns.
@Steeplejack: If I may be so bold, what dx do you use to calibrate responses to me? Perhaps, I’d rather not know, LOL.
Violet
@Patricia Kayden: Have a look at the Facebook page I linked a few comments above. The comments on it are not at all supportive of the cop. I think he’s not doing well in the court of public opinion.
I don’t know if he’ll be convicted but the department may offer him as a sacrificial lamb under the “one bad apple” theory in hopes of keeping the DOJ off their backs. That wouldn’t surprise me.
Cervantes
@Keith G:
Sorry, I did not go back to make that connection. I suppose I should have thought harder about the question before asking.
Anyhow, thanks for explaining!
Elizabelle
@Ben: I think police selection and training will be revamped. Seriously and soon.
I think North Charleston is going to pay through the nose in a wrongful death suit.
Tragic irony is that Walter Scott might have tried to evade the cop because he was afraid of being jailed for not providing child support.
I suspect the PD and city government will end up supporting Scott’s children through adulthood and beyond, and hope the kids all get fabulous university educations out of this tragedy. If they so desire.
Chris
@Cacti:
Of course, the problem of comparing the U.S. with most other Western nations is that most other Western nations aren’t absolutely awash in unregulated guns. We are, and we insist on being that way, so the cops do, in all fairness, have plenty to be paranoid about – I can see how that would feed into a “shoot first, shoot later, shoot some more and then when everybody’s dead maybe ask a question or two” mindset.
Most British cops aren’t armed at all, which precludes these kinds of shootings (I’m sure there’s still plenty of police brutality, but it’s a lot less likely to be terminal), but they can afford to do that because most of the population is unarmed too. That would be an outstanding solution here, but unfortunately we insist on funding the war from both ends.
Chris
@JPL:
What they call “political correctness” pretty much IS common decency. The anti-PC movement is the equivalent of the kid who’s just learned a bunch of adult words and drops them periodically in the mistaken belief that he’s being cool, badass and grown-up, and shocking his parents just proves that they can’t push him around, man.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@schrodinger’s cat:
See how much Doug J has upped his game? He knows we’ll assume one of his alternate identities would use better grammar and spelling! He even fooled you.
Cervantes
@WaterGirl:
Thanks for the insight into your life experience. I appreciate it.
Keith G
@Cervantes: My pleasure. I just threw it out there as a very disposable attempt at regional humor with the knowledge that some would get it and many would not.
Violet
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I’ve done some google sleuthing. I don’t think it’s a ruse. I don’t think it’s DougJ. I think it’s real. I’m in the ‘possible autism/Asperger’s spectrum’ camp, plus definite use of alcohol or other substances at times. In my theory, that’s when the ugliness appears. Could be completely wrong, but it’s too easy to find a long trail of lots of corroborating evidence that matches stories that would be an amazing bit of performance art were that the case. And to what end?
Mandalay
@Unabogie:
You wish is their command…
muddy
@WaterGirl: My mom brought me up saying everyone was equal. We lived overseas, so I did not witness American racism first hand. There were few enough Americans where we were that they just stuck together. I just never learned that there was such a thing – well there was some vague talk about slavery in olden times. One time my mom and her friend were gossiping about the daughter of a 3rd woman, daughter was in college and dating a black man. I innocently piped up, not knowing what the problem was. I was maybe 12? Anyway they were very uncomfortable, and wanted to be sure I knew not to ever do that, but they didn’t want to sound racist, so they were stuttering over it. Finally they settled on, “What if they ended up getting married, their children would be mixed-race and would be bullied at school?” I said it was only because it was less usual, if more people did it then no one would notice anymore. I was coming from the place of getting teased and bullied daily for being ginger, and I knew it was just because it was uncommon. These poor ladies were dying, wanting to tell me NO but know it sounds bad. She taught me not to be racist, but then was appalled when I wasn’t. oops
I was always so dumb back then, and would just be perplexed over her word usages, not realizing it was crypto-racism. Once she told me to go ask this guy for directions. “Mom, why do you say -Ask the black gentleman- and not just -Ask the man-? If he was white you wouldn’t mention it, why do you mention he is black, he’s the only one there? She has no answer. It was only later that I realized she had to also say “gentleman” because she had to modify the word “black”. Obviously that’s a bad word, so to not look racist you modify it. Cripes.
Cervantes
@Cacti:
Yes, they do make a real effort in this regard.
We, on the other hand, are forced to keep pretending we have no idea what it means.
WaterGirl
@Cervantes: I see the difference in those statements, too.
But that’s my point. Yes, all this ugliness is now visible to this white girl in a way that it wasn’t before Barack Obama was elected. But at least part of that is that it’s so much more blatant and over the top now. If it was always the practice for people to shoot black men in cold blood, then something has changed because more and more people are aware of it. I think part of what has changed is that there has been a wild increase in the level of rage that is directed to people of color and women and poor people and the mentally ill, etc.
Discrimination has alway been there, but I believe that the level of rage that it openly and blatantly displayed is new. And it’s not just that video is available. I think rage and hate have been ratcheted up.
I believe that another factor is that once you see it, once you see that it’s open season on black men, you can’t un-see that, and then you can see that it’s happening everywhere.
WaterGirl
@Heliopause:
Sadly, that’s a great summary.
Mandalay
@RaflW:
A step in the right direction, but things are not so sweet in other states. From your link:
WaterGirl
@Cervantes: Care to elaborate? Your comment can be read to mean oh so many things, some of them highly uncomplimentary. I would rather hear your take than imagine what you might have meant, if you don’t mind.
Pogonip
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Oh, OK, I saw an edited version.
Keith G
@Mandalay: In some ways I sort of like the Texas bill because 25 feet is not a great distance and anything beyond that would seem to be fair territory. No matter how uncomfortable the situation, the police would have a hard time going after someone filming an event who was standing 30 feet away. Of course, that leads me to wonder if Texas law enforcement might find reasons to oppose that type of bill.
The Montana bill seems to be unconstitutional.
Elizabelle
@Mandalay: From the Charleston paper story on shooting:
So the children in blue will now get body cameras.
Good.
muddy
@Cervantes: They moved to a town near Wilmington, NC, and their last name is Stewart, for any that wish to avoid them. Drunk junkies, it’s unusual, generally people go one way or the other, not both.
I live in a wee village, we don’t have a mayor. The other neighbors are as appalled as I am, which is a blessing. I’ve always been happy to pony up and pay taxes for the police dept, it’s a nice little town. Not happy about it anymore, and there is a lot of unrest about the cops, not just me. Town Meeting has been much livelier the last couple years on this topic.
germy shoemangler
@muddy: I’m glad you lost those neighbors.
I’m sorry to hear that about Vermont. I was under the impression it was one of the more progressive, livable places in the U.S.
Steeplejack
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Oh, hell, you’re so normal you don’t even ping on the diagnostic radar.
And it’s not so much that I calibrate my responses—although I do that also—it’s more that over time I build up an impression (real or imagined) of the person(a) behind a nym and adjust my reading accordingly. Who’s likely to be snarking in a murky situation, who’s a troll, who’s a one-note crank, who has a hot-button issue (don’t we all!), who is worth bothering to engage, etc. Who has an idiosyncratic style open to different interpretations depending on how long you’ve been reading it.
Calouste
@scav: I’ve lived in multiple countries in Europe, and yes, police have their issues everywhere. But to put things in perspective, UK police have killed about 20 people this century, American police do that in a week.
Violet
@Keith G: If the people involved are moving, as would probably be the case most times, the 25 feet could change. The videographer could start at 25 feet away, the people being filmed move around and suddenly the videographer is 20 feet away. And now they can be ticketed for breaking the law. I see it as a way to intimidate people from taking videos. Plus it means microphones are much less likely to catch what’s happening.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Steeplejack: That’s a good explanatory outline of how I approach the personalities here as well, but I’d never given it as much thought as to articulate it so nicely. I thank you for that.
Also, I’m glad to hear I don’t ping any diagnostic radar. I’m a far left liberal and I live in a pretty wealthy village where residents seem to reliably vote very blue. My father was in the Navy in WWII and his father was a Lt. Colonel in the army, who did high level weapon design. LOL.
germy shoemangler
@Steeplejack: Do you have a diagnosis of me? My own self-diagnosis is “failure to thrive.”
flukebucket
Agreed. That is why I feel so bad for folks who think that finally justice will be done. If this had gone to a grand jury he would have never been indicted even with the video evidence. The prosecutor would have made sure of that.
muddy
@germy shoemangler: It is, that’s why it’s fucked up that even here the cops act that way! It’s different in how far they go, but it’s the same attitude. Instant obedience from the citizens is required. Oh silly of me to call us citizens, we are all dangerous perps apparently.
schrodinger's cat
@Cervantes: Aww thanks!
@Steeplejack: Thanks but I thought we are all mad here!
Cervantes
@WaterGirl:
This is the question, of course. How does one answer it?
When I remember “strange fruit,” and the Elaine massacre, and what happened in Philadelphia, Mississippi — and I do remember these things every day — it’s a little difficult for me to conclude that “rage and hate have been ratcheted up” merely since November, 2008.
Someone observed that the best camera is the one you have with you. But ubiquitous camera functionality and the ability to publish widely what you’ve captured on camera — as you know, these are relatively recent developments. Even ten years ago when these “incidents” occurred, and occur they did, most people who weren’t there in the immediate neighborhood (so to speak) could remain blissfully unaware.
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat:
Mad about you, anyway.
schrodinger's cat
@muddy: Do you live in the bizzaro version of Stars Hollow?
Violet
@Steeplejack: Now you’re making me curious about your diagnosis of me. One-note crank? Hot button issue? Idiosyncratic? Something else?
Chris
@WaterGirl:
I think the Fox effect is in full force in terms of stirring up and normalizing this kind of rage.
Keith G
@Violet: Yes that could happen but I think that’s a bit of a rarity since most people filming something are going to be farther than 30 or 40 feet away as was the case in this bit of video that is now in the news.what
The police have a right and responsibility to create a zone around an incident for the protection of the parties involved and the by-standarders. I do not think that 20 feet is unreasonable, in fact I think it’s a bit generous.
edited for speech recognition problems
germy shoemangler
@Chris:
From “Salon.com”
On Wednesday morning, “Fox & Friends” invited legal analyst Arthur Aidala onto the show to discuss the death of Walter Scott at the hands of Officer Michael Slager in North Charleston, S.C. In a recently surfaced video of the shooting, some have suggested that Slager can be seen planting a taser on the victim, to corroborate the story that Scott had been threatening him.
Aidala said that’s pretty much the norm.
“When I was in the DA’s office in the ’80s and ’90s, that was standard operating procedure,” he said. “Police officers — I hate to say this — would keep a second gun that nobody knew about on their ankle, so if they ever killed someone they shouldn’t have they would take that gun out…”
Steeplejack
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
We should all be so lucky. Alas, no.
As for the diagnosing/calibrating, we all do it, consciously or unconsciously. I had a whole ’nother paragraph on that but didn’t want to get too meta. I guess it’s like “real life”: you’re drawn to some people, you’re “meh” about others, and a few just rub you the wrong way. And it’s all complicated because it’s done in print without all the nonverbal cues you get in real life.
And people have varying tolerances for how far they allow (or want) their blog persona to vary from their real self. E.g., I think blog Steep may drink a little bit more than real Steep. LOL.
Okay, I got too meta.
Cervantes
@WaterGirl:
No problem. My response was meant literally.
That is to say, your comment was beautifully written and recalled a poignant moment in time — one that many of us here recognize, I’m sure.
Sorry for being too cryptic about how I appreciate it.
Steeplejack
@germy shoemangler:
Only current note for you is a question as to your previous nym (if any). Your current one is new, but you sound like a long-time commenter.
ETA: “Failure to thrive.” Well, you are a regular on Balloon Juice. LOL.
WaterGirl
@Violet: It’s funny how many of us seem to have wondered the same thing when we read that comment from Steep!
Cervantes
@Chris:
Another relatively recent development, I agree — though I don’t know how to quantify (or even rank) its effect, either.
Cervantes
@muddy:
Well, then you and yours are not alone. That’s good to hear.
Cervantes
@muddy:
Thanks for this comment.
WaterGirl
@muddy: Yeah, my mom raised us to be independent thinkers, and then she wasn’t so pleased when we were the independent thinkers who didn’t agree with her!
My sisters remind me of your mom. My sister always has to use the “indian” voice when he recounts her conversation with some tech support person. I called her on it the first time she did it, and no, of course she doesn’t mean anything by it. sigh
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Matt McIrvin: No. It’s one of those things everyone needs to stop saying because it can’t be fucking done.
Has nothing to do with “points” or any such argumentative bullshit.
retr2327
@Matt McIrvin: Personally, I think the whole idea of “shoot to disable” is fundamentally misguided. Police should not be discharging a firearm at fleeing suspects, period, unless that shooting is justified by an imminent threat of serious harm by the fleeing suspect, in which (very rare; after all, he’s running away) case the correct response is discharging the clip at the body mass, as they (all too often) wrongly do for fleeing suspects who do not pose an imminent threat of serious harm.
In other words, a gun just isn’t the right tool to use if you don’t want to end up with someone possibly dead. Most of the cases where someone proposes “shoot to disable” would be better handled by not shooting at all, letting the perp get away, and attempting capture at another time.
Steeplejack
@Violet, @WaterGirl:
LOL, now I’m afraid that I’ve given the impression that I’m sitting in some black-and-white 1940s office out of Brazil, wearing a green eyeshade and sleeve garters and “evaluating” everyone based on a constant stream of information transmitted to me in capsules via pneumatic tubes.
Okay, actually, that is pretty much what the inside of my head looks like, but let’s not get into that right now. Ahem.
It’s funny, but I sort of group you two in my mind, along with another [something]Girl, as being sort of kindred spirits: roughly my age (early 60s), unmarried/unpaired, former hippie (or hippie-adjacent), amiable and definitely “Let’s do a meet-up”-worthy. No crankitude detected, or well within situation-specific norms.
Mandalay
@Keith G:
It’s both interesting and bizarre that a Texan bill should unfavorably single out anyone carrying a firearm:
There is no way that the NRA is going to allow that to pass.
Pogonip
@Steeplejack: I probably ping them all!
CONGRATULATIONS!
@RaflW: Ralf, what happens when you fire a bullet at someone and you miss?
It keeps going. For about a mile or so, usually. If you open fire on a guys extremities at the same distance that Murder Cop does in that video, you’re going to miss every single shot, and that’s eight bullets flying for a mile or more into God knows what. Or who.
I submit, especially in a metro/suburban area, that you’re much more likely to shoot someone not involved with the mess at all than you are to shoot the guy you’re trying to “disable”.
If you want to make the argument that maybe, just maybe, you shouldn’t be shooting AT ALL under such circumstances, that is an argument I already agree with you on. As is the one that we should pretty much disarm everyone. But it seems we lost that argument a while back.
pseudonymous in nc
@Elizabelle: yep, bodycams don’t change a model of policing where TACTICAL COP thinks he’s patrolling an occupied population.
Cervantes
@Steeplejack:
Purple.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: Not to worry! Years of your good nature on display at BJ have inoculated you against anything worrisome.
muddy
@WaterGirl: My eldest sister is the same way. There’s a lot of “those people”. Which people are those, I ask. She gets mad.
Once she saw a group of mostly black people outside the cafeteria at a hospital in the summer. She points it out to me, says “You know those people like it hot, that’s whey they’re all out there.” I said they are out there because they are smoking. Oh…
She didn’t have a way to make smoking racist so she had to leave it.
Steeplejack
@Cervantes:
Yes! Thanks. [Whfft-ktnk! as capsule arrives in tube]
WaterGirl
@Pogonip: … said she who always demands Pupdates!
Speaking of which, we need some. geg6
breaks up the familypicks up Lovey on Saturday, I think.edit: geg6, I meant that in the nicest possible way! :-)
Mandalay
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
I find that very plausible. As I posted earlier, three of the eight shots fired by Slager missed completely, even though he was presumably aiming at the center of Scott’s back.
WaterGirl
@muddy:
That made me laugh!
My other sister worried that “the blacks might riot” in 2008 if Hillary Clinton got the nomination from super delegates after people voted in such a way that Barack Obama would have been the democratic nominee.
I told her that I certainly hoped so, that after all my work to get him the nomination that I would be out there rioting if that happened.
edit: followed by dead silence, i think because in her mind only black people would be upset and because only black people “riot”.
Violet
@Cervantes: I think there are probably multiple things going on. As the percentage of white people in the country grows smaller, they see “their country slipping away.” And to a certain extent it is. The USA is no longer a nation of mostly white people and the automatic leg up that white people have had for…well, forever, especially white men, is in jeopardy. That’s real power simply by virtue of the color of your skin and most people don’t like to lose power. Even if they can’t articulate it they can see it happening or feel it and they’re scared and angry about it. So that leads to the rage that WaterGirl is referencing. I think that’s real.
There’s the related point that the horrible treatment of non-white people used to be legal, expected, required or at least culturally acceptable. Cold-blooded murder of black men was just how things were done. As the country/culture change and all of the above becomes illegal or not culturally acceptable not everyone is all that fast to catch on. That takes time. So twenty or fifty or a hundred years ago cops may have done that kind of thing and it wouldn’t be thought wrong. Now it is.
Add to that video cameras everywhere, militarization of police departments, income inequality, etc. and people are angrier and more afraid than they used to be and they can document things more easily. It’s an interesting mix.
Steeplejack
@Pogonip, @WaterGirl:
Yeah, just the pupdate thing, when I’m in a grumpy mood. Usually doesn’t register.
I think at this point we can all agree that Cole knows we all want pupdates (and catdates) all the time. The problem is not that he doesn’t know but that he willfully and sadistically withholds them because he has a life or something—or is on Twitter, more likely.
Violet
@Steeplejack: Interesting. I’m not going to say whether you’re right or wrong about me, but it’s nice you don’t see me as a crank. Definitely would be fun to have a meet up.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Steeplejack: I should be clear that I’m not among the wealthy inhabitants of said – inner suburban – village, but there are plenty. Mainly, however, I was (clearly unsuccessfully) imitating the “Doug J persona.”
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Hear, hear.
Pogonip
@Steeplejack: Did he clear this so-called life of his with his readers?
Violet
@Pogonip: No! He did not! And where are our Cole rants? And pupdates! Moar pupdates dammit!
Steve
Be interesting to see how sharpton and jackson and the self proclaimed leaders of the black community handle this one. Ferguson and the alleged chokehold incident in NYC were not the incidents they should hold up as the examples of cop on black abuse they need to effectuate the change they desire. This one may very well be.
Steeplejack
@Pogonip:
Pneumatic tubes say no.
InternetDragons
You know, Tommy has posted here for awhile, and on more than one occasion has shared enough about himself that some of you should catch a fucking clue and ease up.
But nooooo. You’re getting off on being self-righteous, targeting the fact that he sometimes doesn’t express himself clearly, and acting OUTRAGED that he wrote in a way that was murky and easily misinterpreted. Even though anyone who spends more than five seconds reading this blog, and anyone with even a basic level of familiarity with regular posters here, realizes how Tommy sometimes posts. He’s trusted people here with a lot of information about himself, and you turn around and act like this. Jerks.
If you’re wondering whether I’m referring to you specifically, I probably am. Jesus Christ – you’re writing multiple posts expressing your outrage over this incident, but you can’t fucking find it in your hearts to take ten seconds and remember that this is Tommy posting. Assholes.
Calouste
@CONGRATULATIONS!: If the cop is shooting at a fleeing suspects’ legs from that distance (10 yards or so), the bullets are not going to fly for another mile, because they are going to hit the ground pretty soon.
Mandalay
@InternetDragons:
Well said, but it’s actually worse than that. As others here have already pointed out, there was a pretty obvious interpretation of Tommy’s poorly worded comments that was not incendiary at all.
Yet some still chose to ignore that interpretation with wilful blindness, and instead embark on sanctimonous rants. Wankers all.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Calouste: For starters, cops are never supposed to shoot at a fleeing suspect unless that person has the means and expressed intent to harm others (a loophole big enough to drive a truck through, I grant you). But they’re really just supposed to let ’em run, or if they haven’t fallen into the clutches of Big Donut, chase them down and arrest them the old-fashioned way.
But let’s say they do, like they do ALL THE FUCKING TIME. In a city? Any place with streets? Sidewalks? Hardpack dirt? (it does happen!) Even something like water will bounce a bullet instead of absorbing it if you hit it at a not-that-low angle (one of the scarier experiences I’ve ever had shooting – I didn’t know).
Ricochets can fly just as far as a bullet that hasn’t hit anything.
Cops shot (to death) a suicidal mentally ill guy a block from my rental, who was sitting on the ground with a shotgun pointed at his own head. If shooting at the ground works, how did I end up with a fucking bullet hole through my fence?
Shooters who haven’t bought the NRA KoolAid know that guns are dangerous as hell, and that one of the real dangers is that after you pull that trigger, you have no control over what that bullet does. None at all. The best rule is don’t shoot. If you do have to shoot, you better not miss.
Pogonip
@Violet: More! We want more!
I really would like to know if Mary G. ever found out whether her abode was fit for a dog.
boatboy_srq
@Elizabelle: Given how thoroughly minoritified the US armed forces are becoming, and DoD being a not-unreasonable training ground for LEOs, you’d think that there would be some sort of fast-track for folks ending their tours to transition over with special effort to encourage servicepeople of color to pursue law enforcement after discharge. And no, not the least surprised about when that program ended. Shrub was the pResidential equivalent of the current Teahadi Senators: there’s nothing a Democrat in the WH can do that a Republican will approve of and continue – not solar panels, nor community policing, nor arms reduction agreements, nor health insurance overhaul, nor trade agreements, nor civil rights programs nor supports for healthy eating and effective education.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Steeplejack:
“This is your receipt for your husband … and this is my receipt for your receipt.”
Steeplejack
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Heh. Noted.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@InternetDragons:
I usually leave Tommy alone, but between this post and the Amanda Knox one, he’s posted some particularly off-the-wall stuff lately, even for Tommy. I don’t know if it’s due to daytime drinking or something else, but it’s way off key from his normal ramblings.
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
If an old fool like me can see what he’s trying to say, it can’t be all that difficult for others. Maybe people don’t have the thirty seconds it takes to figure out his meaning — and, sure, that’s fine, don’t bother — but then how is there so much time to ridicule him?
rk
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
How about a rule where cops don’t shoot anyone running away after a traffic stop. I mean the cop has the vehicle. The guy should not be that hard to find.
WaterGirl
@rk: I’m pretty sure you’ve already lost when you start making rules about when the cops can’t shoot anyone.
Patricia Kayden
@Steve: Why weren’t Ferguson (Mike Brown) and NY (Eric Garner) good cases demonstrating police overreach? You’re entitled to your opinion but those cases were no less horrific than this one. They all deserve outrage. This is not the first case of a Black man being killed on film by police, by the way.
Patricia Kayden
@Steve: By the way, how in the Garner case was it an “alleged chokehold”? Did you not see the video?
J R in WV
Tommy is an interesting guy (if he is a guy). He has shared a lot about his background, LSU, DC, southern Illinois. Family history, a little. Career some, although I’m confused about is he a techy geek or an advertising guy, really?
He often writes in a oddly stylized manner, with easily misunderstood structure, as Violet pointed out early on here. If you decipher it successfully, it is usually pretty common opinions from a liberal. But it can be easily read in a superficial manner to be outrageous. Is he doing this deliberately? I can’t tell.
Is he shooting to be in the style of someone on the autistic spectrum? Dunno, although I have a nephew in there somewhere, and some cousins that were close. Hell, as a kid I was like that a lot, and somehow grew out of it between college and Boot Camp. I learned to pretend to be normal instinctively, and now it feels natural. Maybe this is who Tommy is or was.
But he does contribute to the atmosphere of B-Juice, somehow. As do we all mostly. So don’t hit him too hard, he might be more sensitive than we think. By the same token, he’s here as a volunteer….. or wherever he is.
Felanius Kootea
@germy shoemangler: Yes. There’s a gofundme for Ramsey Orta (guy who took the video of Eric Garner’s murder). His bail is $16250. Gofundme goal is $40,000 with $29,000 raised so far.
Steeplejack
@J R in WV:
Well said.
kvmj
I don’t believe that this man attempted to get the officer’s taser. The officer had already drawn the taser and shot him. One of the prongs was still embedded in his back when backup arrived. You can also see a filament as Scott breaks away from the officer.
This is the same police department that stopped a man for walking with his hands in his pockets late at night. He didn’t stop right away so the officer forced him to his knees and handcuffed his arms behind his back. Somehow, according to the officer, the suspect managed to wrestle the officer’s gun from its holster and shot himself in the back of the head. Although I think this scenario is impossible, his death was ruled a suicide.