*READ*
"A closer look at Harris shows how effective she’s become."
"Her delivery is crisp and authoritative. She appears relaxed, confident and centered in formal and informal settings. And she appears to relish taking on bullies."
— Herbie Ziskend (@HerbieZiskend46) June 24, 2024
Jennifer Rubin, a week ago — “A closer look at Harris shows how effective she’s become”: [gift link]
On Friday [June 21], after the Supreme Court issued its latest batch of opinions, I spoke briefly on the phone with Vice President Harris. After several days spent attending her appearances, it had become obvious to me that far from being a liability, as her critics insist, she is an effective communicator and skilled advocate — especially on causes on which she has developed expertise over decades.
Given the recent court scandals, I asked her about ethics reform. Even when in the Senate, she recalled, she supported a code of ethics for the Supreme Court. “The reasons are more evident today, ” she said. She pointed to blindfolded Lady Justice. “This is how ingrained it is in our system of justice,” she added. “I’m concerned there has been loss of confidence” in the court, Harris said, highlighting not only ethics concerns but also the extreme ideology of a court that has shredded precedent.
From there she spoke passionately about her work since Dobbs to defend reproductive freedom. According to her office, since that decision, she has delivered scores of speeches and held more than 90 gatherings in 21 states (as well as convening groups at the White House) to discuss reproductive freedom with elected officials, health-care providers, faith leaders, students, and advocates. On her Fight for Our Freedoms College Tour, beginning in 2023, she raised the issue at college campuses.
Harris told me her campus visits have been standing room only, with overflow rooms. “Students stood in line for hours,” she said, “not for a rock concert, but to have a conversations with the vice president.” Contrary to the impression that Gen Z voters are disengaged, she came away “inspired” and more certain that they will mark a “sea change” in politics. Guns, abortion rights and climate are not academic issues to this generation. “It is a lived experience. In the height of their reproductive years, the Supreme Court took away the right to make decisions about their own body. . . . They understand we need practical solutions.”…
Political media largely underplays the vice president’s role in the campaign and specifically her task in reaching out to critical Democratic constituencies. But her political strength is not lost on the Biden team — as a senior aide exiting the gate on Monday acknowledged to me — which now deploys her during event-packed weeks. This past week alone, Harris’s schedule included a quick trip to Switzerland; her Monday event; a gun-safety appearance and Juneteenth celebration in Atlanta; abortion events back in D.C.; and finally, a New York speech to the largest hospitality union.
As is true with the entire campaign, the voters most enthusiastic about Harris are those who are most engaged. Now, the campaign must ensure the entire electorate gets to see what those watching her up close have observed: a formidable candidate.
vp as a pride flag is gay rights pic.twitter.com/I84V091iP8
— Florida Chris (@chrislongview) June 19, 2024
This interview was published ten days ago, and it demonstrates very well why attempting to pass over or replace VP Harris is a non-starter:
I sat down with @KamalaHarris this afternoon to talk about, among other things, the importance of this coming presidential election. “I think this is one of the most significant elections of our lifetime.” @theatlantavoice #gapol https://t.co/ws1C7TyRpZ pic.twitter.com/trA9a0zlSV
— Donnell Suggs (@suggswriter) June 18, 2024
In case you forgot, the thing that scares people most about Joe Biden's age is Kamala Harris's race and gender. pic.twitter.com/UjKCNyC82Z
— Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) June 30, 2024
I'll take calls for Biden to step aside seriously when they're proposing Harris (the only possible alternative) and not Johnny Electable, the hypothetical ideal candidate who is certain to win because he agrees with the pundit in question on every issue
— Houthi and the Blowfish (@canderaid) June 29, 2024
If it’s Harris or Biden (seems this is the case as a basic logistical question) and you don’t want it to be Biden you should start talking about how Kamala is actually pretty great and the mashups of her laughing a lot don’t really indicate she’s a bad politician
— the pier doesn’t need you (@CentristMadness) June 29, 2024
Because she’s a female politician we’ve all decided to make fun of her saying pretty boilerplate stuff, or pretending a metaphor about a coconut tree is somehow impossible to understand.
Kamala has been quite articulate and righteous about important issues for some time. You occasionally see clips of these speeches, usually from people trying to draw daylight between her and Biden to stir up controversy.
But what’s not going to work is to act like you can just drop a white guy from the Midwest in when the practical considerations make it impossible. And my understanding is that it basically is.
The subtext of ignoring all these practicalities to pass over Kamala is that we should just stick with the old white guy. Voters pick up on this subtext.
To say this is a complication is like saying Biden's debate performance didn't meet expectations. Yes, a pretty big one. The D party is defined by being the party of women & Blacks. I don't see how passing over the black woman veep isn't like setting off a bomb in the coalition.
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) June 29, 2024
Frankensteinbeck
Political media largely underplays her existence.
EDIT – The only danger I see posed by the debate is from the freakout.
Ken
@Frankensteinbeck: Maybe she should do some traditional Veep things, like… um… staring steely-jawed across the Korean border? Or refusing to get in the car with the secret service agents sent by the President to “protect” her?
Frankensteinbeck
@Ken:
Or being a white man!
eclare
@Frankensteinbeck:
Agree on both counts. Hopefully whatever decision SCOTUS releases tomorrow will take the debate freakout out of the news cycle.
NYT Pitchbot take
https://x.com/DougJBalloon/status/1807387911580537221
Baud
@Frankensteinbeck:
Agreed.
If given a choice between pants wetting liberal culture and alpha male right wing culture, normies will always choose the latter.
Baud
@Frankensteinbeck:
We can do it. We have the technology.
Kristine
All the flailing about for any name other than Harris has been such an embarrassment. Such a tell.
JAFD
For those really intrsted in British politics, a print-and-play game on the current elections in Merrie Olde:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/samphiregames/poll-and-write-2024
azlib
The pundits (perhaps with the exception of Jennifer Rubin) just do not get it why replacing Biden with some white dude is totally insane for the Dems. Yes, Harris ran a terrible campaign 4 years ago, but that was 4 years ago. She is bright, articulate and fearless. FInally, she seems to be getting more positive coverage. As an old white guy, I am enraged that even a few of my fellow libs here AZ still do not see her as a viable replacement for Biden if that is what Joe wants to do.
MomSense
I’m calling it now – Harris Pritzker.
Jackie
@Ken: Let’s never forget Harris has never attended a professional football game and left in the middle of the National Anthem.
I can’t think of anything else Pence has done to show his patriotism.
NotMax
For funsies.
This Is the Most Popular Slang Word the Year You Were Born.
RevRick
Several things needed to be noted here:
First, all the available hypothetical polling has any other Democratic candidate doing worse against Trump than either Biden or Harris.
Second, no matter who runs as the Democratic nominee, the Republicans will be campaigning against Biden, now, as he’s too old, then as he quit the race, because he knows his policies are all failures.
Third, all Johnny Unbeatables (except for Kamala) will have to start at square one in terms of fundraising and campaign organization. They would have to invest an inordinate amount of time getting off the ground with no time to do it.
Replacing Biden would be insane.
sdhays
I found the articles calling for Biden to step aside last year irritating, but at least they were before the process to pick the nominee. All that handwringing last year didn’t convince anyone, so Biden is the nominee. Anyone who brings it up NOW has a broken brain or is not arguing in good faith.
And yes, if you really are that terrified that Biden is incapable of winning in November, you need to start and end with Kamala. The argument can’t be “Biden should step down”. The only argument that’s worth maybe listening to is “we should go with Kamala”, because that’s the only Plan B. Just for practical purposes – only Kamala can take over control of the campaign money that’s already been raised since she’s part of the Biden-Harris campaign; anyone else will start from zero. End of story.
Since no one’s making that argument (and, to be clear, I’m a Harris 2028 supporter!) …can we just stop?
NotMax
@MomSense
Worst stripper name ever?
:)
Kay
I went to a Sherrod fundraiser last night at a very nice house, about 30 people, “Women for Biden” sign in the front. Sherrod talked about his campaign and how he is confident he will win, also spent quite a bit of time talking about the Supreme Court (probably because at least 10 of the 30 attendees are lawyers). No one asked Sherrod about the debate in the question section but several people were talking about it in the “milling around chatting” part after he left – they’re nervous.
zhena gogolia
Even Bill Penzey. I wrote to him to express my disappointment. He didn’t exactly call for Biden to withdraw, but he didn’t exactly support him either. And there’s this:
I assume that’s a reference to Kamala.
jimmiraybob
@Kristine:
“All the flailing about for any name other than Harris has been such an embarrassment. Such a tell.”
Yes, yes it is.
E.
I wasn’t too worried about the debate thing until this morning when I opened Facebook for the first time in some days and saw to my horror large numbers of my “friends “ calling for Biden to “relinquish” his grip and let someone else run for President. These are not people who want Trump to win. It’s terrifying to watch capital move the media, the media move the public, and the public gravitate in all manner of ways toward fascism.
Leto
The Deggens, Fallow, and Marshal tweets highlight something I spoke about a few days ago. The core constituency of the Dem party, led by Clyburn, saved Biden’s bacon in SC. They remembered how Biden stood with Obama, vociferously supporting him as VP without ever once trying to take the spotlight. And Biden has returned the favor by selecting the incredibly capable Harris as his VP, while also keeping his promise of elevating a black woman to the USSC, as well continuing to place BIPOC into the judiciary, as well as his Cabinet/administration/fed government.
The media’s obsession with the “one white male midwestern savior” complex is fucking tiring as well as dumb. Especially the “pundit/editorial” class of the media who, for four long miserable years, has written nothing else on the subject. We remember who brought us to the party, and we remember who will take us home. For all the rest: Fuck’em.
Baud
@Kay:
That’s positive. Dems are always nervous.
O. Felix Culpa
@zhena gogolia: Not sure. I haven’t read the whole letter to get the context, but Kamala isn’t really “someone new.” And any other putative Biden replacement would be “someone new,” don’t you think?
Barbara
For many pundits, I don’t think its even issue oriented, they just can’t imagine having someone not like themselves in power. I honestly see this more through the lens of misogyny but that’s probably just me. They would of course deny, deny, deny if this were pointed out to them.
satby
I’ve been all over Twitter (and lesser BlueSky) reinforcing Victoria Brownworth’s tweet. The replace Biden folks were just using a lousy 30 minutes to seize the chance to dump both Biden AND Harris. NOPE to the eternity Nope. Biden’s already come back stong, his supporters need to too.
My kids were making fun of the entire debate because two ancient guys and one a psycho, but they’re no way voting for anyone but Biden. They know the stakes.
Kristine
@zhena gogolia: That is a disappointment.
O. Felix Culpa
@E.:
Ah, your first mistake. :)
Ned F.
@azlib:
Two days ago, Lydia Polgren at the Times gave a case for Kamala Harris…. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/kamala-harris-biden-debate.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3k0.C51K.bsQPGQTQBGlJ&smid=url-share
The normally liberal comment section basically laughed her off.
I’d vote for her unquestionably, I don’t get the total write off from others.
MomSense
@RevRick:
We have been placed in a terrible position by Joe Biden and his campaign. The fucking hubris. It’s a major betrayal. He won’t win. His family is meeting at Camp David and there are already lots of leaks from Democratic MoC and operatives that they are discussing his future and whether he continues.
This is a nightmare and we all have to be ready for a fucking slog.
satby
That was my take too. Take up gun, aim at own chest, fire!
Frankensteinbeck
It’s a detail, but I think they don’t propose Harris because they in a real sense don’t know she exists. It’s the same misogynistic process as women’s proposals being ignored in business meetings, then praised when a man says it. She’s a woman. She’s black, which intensifies the effect. She’s insignificant and unnoticeable to them. Unqualified and wrong by default. It’s a different flavor of bigotry than fearing her, but just as disgusting.
Emily B.
Hell, yes. I voted for Biden AND Harris. And please tell me what the hypothetical Johnny or Jane Electable is supposed to run on? They won’t be able to take credit for any part of remarkable achievements of the Biden-Harris Administration. Buttigieg would have the best claim, but it’s weaker than Harris’s. He’s only a Cabinet Secretary.
On BIden’s debate performance—I hope Jill is getting Joe to a doctor and getting his prescription meds checked. My understanding is that sometimes sudden cognitive declines in the elderly are the result of prescriptions drug interactions. (And I’m not even convinced that Biden’s debate performance reflects an actual cognitive decline. But it should be looked into.)
Scout211
Kamala would make a very, very good president. She was my first choice when she ran for president. Being from California, I was well aware of her extremely high level of competency. Her overall level of competency is yet another reason why she gets so much negative criticism on the right (and in the media). She is smart, savvy, strong and extremely competent. They can’t criticize her for her competency because they love to create memes and distorted perceptions and then repeat them until they become accepted as fact. If you criticize her for her high level of intelligence, competency and strength then that becomes accepted fact.
We just have to keep putting it out there (like all these links and tweets that AL is posting here) so the facts about Kamala are out there and are constantly repeated.
MomSense
@O. Felix Culpa:
What is being missed is that she has been touring college campuses talking abortion and gun safety. Abortion is the issue that has brought people out to vote and caused us to outperform polling. She with her credibility on this issue and an actual billionaire VP are our best option.
Kay
@Baud:
It wasn’t too bad. Sherrod is a positive – they all think he will win. People want to be aligned with someone they think will win.
I’m going to a Sherrod event at a UAW “family center” today – supposed to be around 300 people- so I’ll move around and listen there. Some of the larger UAW locals built sort of complexes with meeting rooms and outdoor pavilions and playgrounds for kids for members. They call them “family centers”. There’s a big one in NW Ohio.
Frankensteinbeck
@MomSense:
This goes against evidence. The post-debate poll and all focus groups say this debate did no damage. It scared people who are going to vote for Biden anyway. Undecideds hated Trump. Your freak out flies against the facts.
eclare
@Kay:
Keep us posted!
TBone
Oh dear LORT (*Madea’s voice) not this again. We’ve rehashed and expended so much time and so many words on the new wedge issue (debate) that I’m tired just thinking about it. On top of that…
Hubby is expressing displeasure today regarding all the ways the SC is fucking up the fuckup and the fuckening we shall experience tomorrow.
Ah, here it comes…the fuckening.
O. Felix Culpa
@Frankensteinbeck:
Good point. As a melanin-deficient female of a certain age, it’s impressive how invisible I can be, out in the world. Don’t even need the Ring of Power to disappear. That’s probably a contributing factor to “we never see Kamala,” because, in a longstanding misogynistic, racist way, they don’t see.
Leto
@Emily B.: he has the best doctors in the world looking after him, but I’m sure Jill is schlepping him down the street to CVS to consult with the local pharmacist.
Starfish
@MomSense: It looks like the media is making a mess for the clicks.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/biden-family-path-forward-disastrous-debate-mess-rcna159591
NotMax
Media note.
Mein gott, what a cast. Ultimately fails to live up to its promise but 85% with this crew ain’t nothing to sneeze at (could have played better with about 15 minutes judiciously trimmed). Bright Young Things is available on Prime.
Barbara
@satby: This was my son’s reaction. He was howling when Trump said he dd not have sex with a porn star. I give him credit for seeing it as the spectacle it was always intended to be instead of the kind of serious political event CNN billed it as.
zhena gogolia
Here’s my letter to the NYT, which I will send after church:
Baud
Four years of Trump might be better for us than proving to people that were pushovers who’ll abandon people at the drop of a hat.
This also might be a good time for minorities and working people to flex their muscle in the party.
Aussie Sheila
@Frankensteinbeck:
Exactly. It’s unbelievable. How about these idiots stop thumbsucking about a stupid debate and start wondering about how the polity could possibly elect a convicted felon who is plausibly accused, among other things, of the attempted assassination of the Vice President in the process of couping himself back into power.
Or would that be impolite and uncivil. God help me.
Steeplejack
Lawrence O’Donnell explains (four months ago!) why “Dump Biden” is a ridiculous fantasy.
Another Scott
MVP is very good. We’re fortunate to have her.
Looking forward to the holiday and the UK elections. The voters there finally throwing out the Tories will be a day to celebrate.
Eyes on the prizes, everyone. It’s what we should remember from the election of President Rmoney in 2012…
Cheers,
Scott.
Barbara
@zhena gogolia: That’s pretty awesome.
eclare
@zhena gogolia:
Very well put.
satby
@MomSense: We don’t usually disagree, but you’re wrong here. It’s not hubris for a very successful president to run again; there’s not a damn thing wrong cognitively with Joe and a ton of wisdom that accomplished a great deal.
Two, I don’t see any of the proposed saviors (and most definitely NOT JB, who’s a team player) step in, unless Joe personally asks them to. I hope he won’t, because he shouldn’t.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
♥️
TBone
@Baud: hear, hear. I love Madam VP but I’m ’bout ready to hear not another word from pushovers.
I’m too old for another day of this shit.
Leto
And based on the good advice of zhena gogolia, reposting this again:
A few of us here need to read/reread this.
Kay
Kristoff suggested Biden be replaced by Sherrod Brown, which just shows you how incredibly bad the NYTimes political team is – sure, replace Joe Biden with literally the only person who can hold an Ohio Senate seat. They’re stupid people. Any random person at the fundraiser last night would do better political analysis/planning.
Michael Bersin
I witnessed this five years ago. Impressive then, impressive now.
Sen. Kamala Harris (D) – West Des Moines, Iowa – August 10, 2019
Kamala Harris’ campaign advance and communications team were first rate.
Iowa – Meta – #ForThePeople – August 10, 2019
TBone
Reposting. This is what we should be making joyful noise about. The BFDs.
https://thecause.substack.com/p/why-is-the-quiet-new-deal-so-quiet
satby
@zhena gogolia: WELL SAID!
Leto
@zhena gogolia: first Hitler, now this. There’s a pattern, I just can’t quite put my finger on it…
Baud
@Kay:
It is dumb. But so are any Dems who take it seriously. I agree with the OP. If you’re not advocating for Kamala, STFU.
Another Scott
@zhena gogolia: 👍💯🇺🇦
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
O. Felix Culpa
I saw MVP when she visited campus here in 2022, shortly after Dobbs. She was greeted by an enthusiastic turnout of the youngs. Who then also turned out to vote. I was pollwatching at the campus voting site, and it was deeply moving to see the youngs waiting patiently to register (we have same-day registration) and then vote. They were sweet, and I have great faith in them to do the right thing in November.
azlib
@Ned F.:
Yes, I read the NYT’s piece as well.
TBone
It being Sunday:
satby
@Kay: Don’t ascribe to stupidity what is easily, almost obviously attributable to malice. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, and does not wish particularly good things for me either.
NotMax
@TBone
This, this, this. Nothingburger with extra cheese.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Frankensteinbeck:
Facts, shmacts.
Please keep repeating the above quote whenever the insane reaction to a single poor debate performance predictably rears it’s head in here.
Baud
Liberals have been dreaming of sticking it to the man my whole life.
This is how you stick it to the man: Reelect Joe Biden.
But maybe it was all talk to amuse ourselves with.
Geminid
@Kay: I think Kristof was such a dilettante he did not know Sherrod Brown is up for reelection.
O. Felix Culpa
@zhena gogolia:
I’ll join the chorus of “well said!”
Michael Bersin
@Leto:
Yep. Yah dance with them what brung yah.
MomSense
@Frankensteinbeck:
Look I don’t know what debate you watched but even if you go back and read the comments here from people who think Biden should stay as the candidate, they were seeing in real time how disastrous his performance was. People are talking about their friends and family freaking out about it. Betty Cracker’s normie husband was rattled.
Polls are shifting and we can debate the accuracy of particular polls but 60% in Friday’s Morning Consult poll think Biden should be replaced. 21% say definitely not and 20% say probably not.
57% think Trump won the debate which is a huge shift from 2020.
The whole reason the Biden campaign wanted a debate is because Biden’s favorability numbers have been low his whole presidency and polling against trump, when we are up, is only 1 or 2 points. Given the Electoral College we need to be up at least 4 but more like 6 to win. We only won the White House in 2020 by 45,000 votes. The EC race was closer in 2020 than it was in 2016.
Kay
@Baud:
That’s my take. The only serious proposal for a replacement is Harris and she polls about the same as Biden and would have the drag of misogony both among the public and among media people. So that’s that. The only way I could see it was as a kind of Hail Mary to “shake up” the race but honestly the only people who do that sort of thing are losing candidates so that would just signal desperation.
wenchacha
@zhena gogolia: Wow! Excellent.
Barbara
@Kay: ”Somebody like me!”
Didn’t he try to run for office in Oregon? I don’t think he got very far, but someone might have challenged his residency?
I wonder at the size of his ego. Indeed, people with positions like his are so fucking pampered. They can be wrong about everything all the time and aren’t accountable to anyone. The rest of us aren’t so lucky.
TBone
@NotMax: 💜👍
I’m only trying to stay positive – tomorrow is gonna SUCK. I need some happy nice weekend time! Don’t we all?
I bought myself a new Snoopy and Woodstock T-shirt to wear. They are holding paws/wingstubs and dancing under a red, white, and blue logo that says “Happiness is feeling free!”
Kay
@MomSense:
FWIW I think it’s fine that you think this – and I don’t think you are going to somehow lose the race for Biden by commenting on this blog- that’s insane.
MomSense
@Steeplejack:
And I was right there pushing back against replace Biden until the debate. I’m even willing to grant that there is nothing wrong cognitively, but a cold and a stutter do not explain how incoherent he was. And even if it was just medication – damage was done. His performance confirmed all the accusations of the last four/five years.
TBone
@Michael Bersin: 💙 I was so frustrated the other day that I posted that in ALL CAPS. I’ma do it again.
DANCE WITH THE ONE WHAT BRUNG YA, PEOPLE!
Starfish
@MomSense: Was there a poll asking if Trump should be replaced or not?
Frankensteinbeck
@MomSense:
And everyone scared about Biden is still voting for him to stop Trump. Biden had a bad cold and has a bad stutter. These things are known. He sounded awful at the debate, by far the worst near the beginning.
It doesn’t matter. Two people were on that stage and the reaction of undecideds was that they would vote for the old guy to stop Hitler.
Another Scott
@Kay: Nick Kristof – Vote for me for Governor of Oregon!
Oregon SCOTUS – You don’t live here so you can’t be on the ballot.
Nick Kristof – Heed my latest column because I’m an electoral politics expert!
🤡
Cheers,
Scott.
NotMax
@TBone
Well, they are naked.
:)
Barbara
@Another Scott: Okay, I did remember this correctly.
jimmiraybob
As to all the chatter about bypassing Harris….
Has anybody publicly considered that if Joe were to decide to step away from the presidency now that it would make Kamala President? She could pick a running mate and, with Joe’s blessing and support, run as an incumbent running on their accomplishments and a similar vision for the future. Joe could stay on as a senior advisor which would put him in a position to continue service to the nation.
I’ve been a bit distracted lately and maybe this is already “out there.”
I should say that as long as Joe’s in the contest that he’s my choice based on the record of those accomplishments. If Kamala were a choice I would stand with her without reservation.
Frankensteinbeck
@MomSense:
Yes, they do. Easily. A stutter isn’t just repeating words. Someone with a serious stutter often can’t get out a thought and has to change tracks. Did you hear his laryngitis? He had a cold and most importantly it did no damage because Trump is so awful.
Kay
@Barbara:
I think he didn’t bother to read the rules for running. Ooops! Tens of thousands of people all over this country run for all sorts of things every year and successfully read and follow the rules but not members of the NYTimes political team – they’re too dumb to run.
It is his FULL TIME job and he suggests Sherrod Brown? It’s just so lazy. They put no thought into this at all.
satby
No one suggested that. At all. It’s called a discussion, and sometimes there’s disagreements. Which is what we’re having.
delphinium
@zhena gogolia: Fantastic letter! It’s incredible how much the NYT continues to degrade and embarrass themselves.
But I guess having a big mad because Biden won’t do an interview with you does that to a paper.
Another Scott
@Barbara:
👍
:-D
Cheers,
Scott.
raven
rotsa ruck
Mousebumples
@Kay: misogyny + racism, probably
But, yes, I agree.
And I’m sure others have said it here (maybe even AL in the OP – I’ve been interrupted by littles so much while reading this am), but I feel that a lot of the concern about Biden’s age (overall, not post-debate, specifically) is about the gender and race of his VP.
jimmiraybob
@MomSense:
No it did not.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Someone in my Secret Cabal of Democrats called an “emergency meeting” for this afternoon. If they intend to agonize about the debate the whole time, I will make an excuse and leave. I realize some people ease their anxiety by talking about it. But for me, the debate is something that’s over and can’t be changed. It’s a waste of my energy to fret about it now. I need to move on.
Josie
@zhena gogolia:
Beautifully written and no lie told.
delphinium
@Kay: That’s great to hear-we need to hold this seat.
TBone
@Dorothy A. Winsor: come sit by me.
💜🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iokgq4I0OM8
Mousebumples
@MomSense: One thing I’ve read – that makes sense – is that Trump’s tendency to Gish Gallop is terrible for people with a stutter. (I can try to find a citation if that would be helpful)
And I think his staffers prepped him with facts and policy points vs being prepared for the Trump Experience.
I don’t think Biden will step down, and I think we’ll be worse off (electorally) if he does. How many normies will view a new presidential candidate (even if it’s Harris) as “OMG, CAN’T TRUST THE DEMS!” vs “oh, yay, a new person who’s not Trump”?
I also don’t trust the NYT/etc. If Biden were to step down, the ticket wouldn’t get positive coverage. They’d lean into chaos agent tactics for clicks.
Your mileage may vary (is YMMV still an acronym people use?), but that’s my take.
satby
I think the entire discussion also shows how fearful and horrified a lot of our society is about aging. Most people just assume past a certain point everyone has dementia (not true).
I can only hope I’m half as sharp and half as healthy as Joe is when I get to his age.
oldgold
To this extent I agree with MomSense, Biden is not going to be able to go out and win this on the campaign trail. He now lacks the skills to effectively campaign. In fact, to my eyes and ears, his public appearances are a net negatives. There is no fixing it. Jetting him around the country to rallies and towhalls would be disaster. If he stays in, they are going to have use a Rose Garden strategy.
That expressed, it is still possible Trump could lose this.
Over this next week the most important player in this is going to be Jill Biden.
stinger
@zhena gogolia:
Outstanding.
wenchacha
Like that Philly paper suggests, where are all the political geniuses demanding CFDJT step down? So much concern about Biden blowing the first thirty minutes of a debate with a felon-slash-rapist who stans Putin. Who is clutching their pearls about him, aside from the never-CFFJTs, who have absolutely no hand with the GOP.
Michael Bersin
@Frankensteinbeck:
Our local Democratic Party social media page (mega corporate host) had a single handwringer insisting that the DNC HAD TO DO SOMETHING. The tendency to panic in recently self-appointed local political experts is tiresome – answering it distracts from the real work of a campaign. If you don’t, it poisons the well.
I answered with: ” You have a choice between a Fascist narcissist and a decent human being. That’s it. You may not like the way it is and that’s okay. But it doesn’t change the reality of that very stark choice.”
kindness
If Trump were put in a situation where he had to debate Kamela, he’d completely lose it.
Barbara
@MomSense: Your posts are telling us more about yourself than Biden.
O. Felix Culpa
@MomSense:
I will own to freaking out after watching the first part of the debate. I went into it not expecting a brilliant performance, but for Joe to hold his own and get in a few zingers here and there. I saw him in person in 2020 after he’d had a long day of campaigning, and he wasn’t brilliant then either, but coherent and at times sharp and funny.
The early part of the debate in contrast was bad, really bad. I didn’t recognize that stumbling, mumbling incoherent Joe and was horrified. We’ll probably never know what went wrong. But that doesn’t matter. He seems to have recovered from that awful ~30-minute glitch and is campaigning vigorously, which he must do going forward.
I had to be walked back from the ledge, in part because many of my normie friends and relations were freaked out too. These are all people who will crawl over broken glass and hot coals to vote D, not “undecideds.” It’s not that they won’t vote for Biden, it’s that they’re worried that other people won’t vote for him. It’s unkind and untrue to call these folks bedwetters. They’re loyal Dems, some fighting the good fight in blood-red states, and they saw what they saw. And they’re freaked exactly because they know what the stakes are in this election.
I take heart in Biden’s strong post-debate appearances, the polls that various folks have cited since the debate suggesting it hurt the Felon more, in the delightful GFY editorial by the Inquirer, in the post-debate fundraising returns for the Biden campaign, and in the general rallying of the troops around our standard-bearers. Will it be enough? FuckifIknow. But I will continue to do my best to work for a Biden-Harris victory
ETA: I also take heart in the fact that a bad half-hour does not a bad President make. Agree with those that we need to fight back against that framing. The FTFNYT has its own agenda, and it’s not on our side.
Geminid
@O. Felix Culpa: Back in February, 2022 I was following the news about the oncoming Russian invasion of Ukraine very intently. The Munich Security Conference met just days before Russia attacked, and Vice President Harris represented the Buden administration.
Harris was impressive throughout, and the other Western leaders present treated her with obvious and well-earned respect. I have never doubted Harris’s capabilities since.
satby
@Mousebumples: It was in Heather Cox Richardson’s letter the night after the debate:
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.
OzarkHillbilly
I just can’t.
UncleEbeneezer
There’s nothing media elites want more than to set off a bomb in our coalition. And we sadly have many people in our coalition who like to take the bait and signal-boost their efforts. It’s a constant source of frustration for many of us.
MomSense
@Kay:
Calling for the debate was the signal that we are losing. Like I said, we need to be up a minimum of 4 points but more like 6 for us to have a chance of winning the Electoral College.
The polling has been abysmal this whole presidency and usually jackals say polls are stupid, etc. Well now when we all saw with our eyes (those of us who didn’t hide from the debate) that Biden was incoherent in the first 20 minutes (when people are actually watching!) and only slightly better at the end jackals are all of a sudden saying we should look to the polls.
Another Scott
ICYMI, … WhiteHouse.gov (from June 28):
Note the time stamp. He’s not sundowning or suffering from brain worms or about to keel over. He had a sore throat and was up on stage with a narcissistic pathological liar.
Hang in there, everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
Leto
@oldgold: did you see him at the after event? At the event the next day? Loud, clear, no issues. Man, Joe is at his best when he’s in front of people, talking to them, listening to them, and interacting with them. Obama constantly had to get people to move Joe along because he would spend HOURS on the line, talking/glad handing people the entire time.
Ain’t no fucking way they’re just gonna lock him away from this point on. That’s a death knell. Readjust tactics for the gish gallop, return fire. Forward, over, or around, but never back and never still.
lowtechcyclist
@zhena gogolia:
That is an excellent letter and deserves to be printed in full.
Which means they probably won’t print it at all, but it’s worth a try.
satby
@oldgold: He now lacks the skills to effectively campaign. In fact, to my eyes and ears, his public appearances are a net negatives.
That’s ridiculous, he went DIRECTLY to campaign events and was vibrant and well recieved.
Michael Bersin
@O. Felix Culpa:
There you go.
Something to help rally folks for the holiday week – also from five years ago:
Nazi punching music
Mousebumples
@satby: thanks. I thought I’d read that somewhere.
UncleEbeneezer
This is really the right way to approach things. Honestly, it’s much better for your own mental health and it’s also true.
TBone
🇺🇸🎶🎯
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVEhDrJzM8E
Louder, for those who aren’t able to hear above the din of regret:
https://thecause.substack.com/p/why-is-the-quiet-new-deal-so-quiet
It’s the BFDs! C’mon, man!!!
MomSense
@Barbara:
I assume you mean that you can tell I have been working on campaigns since 1986.
lowtechcyclist
I just want to thank Anne Laurie for having frequently brought us up to date in her morning posts on what Kamala Harris has been doing. On account of that, we know how good she is, how much she has been doing, and have no doubts about her ability to lead the country if Biden should have to step aside during his second term. I can only hope the rest of America catches up with us here.
Mousebumples
I believe the polls are consistent. Whether they’re representative is a different question.
However, looking at poll *movement* post-debate seems reasonable.
Dems have outperformed polling since 2020, however.
O. Felix Culpa
@satby:
Same! Plus, other societies actually respect the wisdom and experience accrued with age. Which Joe has aplenty.
Other MJS
@satby: This morning Heather Cox Richardson recommended this fact card campaign: bigwin2024.com.
TBone
Ridin’ with Biden all day long!
🎶🎉✊
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w-G7-yLFmCQ
satby
@Another Scott: He went to the Waffle House that night, to the NC thing I posted above early the next day, then back to NYC to introduce Elton John at the anniversary event at Stonewall. On very little sleep.
I’m 69 and when I worked 8 house at a farmers market I came home and fell asleep in my chair every time.
Michael Bersin
@MomSense:
“I assume you mean that you can tell I have been working on campaigns since 1986.”
That’s a very strange thing to say to a large group of people who can pretty much state the same thing.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone 😊 😊 😊
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
TBone
Delaware Destroyers. We come up the hard way. 🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a9qIPAdLhfI
And furthermore
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RYu5YbdRKL0
Kay
@Mousebumples:
I disagree about that – that it’s “about” Harris for long term Democrats. He performed terribly at the debate which mattered more than when Obama had a bad debate because it reinforced a negative about him. They’re concerned he will lose. I watched the debate. Downpalying how bad that was is in my opinion just telling ourselves lies. I think that’s a legitimate concern. It’s just that there’s no real fix for it (although I would like to see Biden fire a manager because accountability matters and they all did a LOUSY job).
We can’t say we were thrilled with his performance at the SOTU because that allayed concerns about his age AND say a bad performance at the debate doesn’t matter – either both are true or neither is true. If the SOTU helped then the debate hurt.
SenyorDave
If the CEO of a publicly traded company had a public performance like Biden had on Thursday the BOD would have a major problem on their hands.
jimmiraybob
@Another Scott: “…hard to debate a liar.”
To the best of my knowledge, the “Gish Gallop,” the rapid and relentless piling on of bullshit and lies, was used in debates by Young Earth Creationists against scientists defending evolutionary science. I believe that this is where the term originated.
It’s near impossible to debate ignorant fools that pile up bullshit and lies faster than one can comprehend a rational reply.
Make that impossible.
Nobody that prepared for an honest, good-faith, substantive debate with a presumptive normal human being could have performed better than Joe. To repeat “you are a lying sack of shit” for his share of 90 minutes was not likely on Joe’s agenda. We can argue about whether it should have been but enough already.
TBone
@SenyorDave: you mean like that fElon Musk interview where he called us all assholes? On stage? In public?
Starfish
@SenyorDave: The Board of Directors would consist of a bunch of his cronies who would give quotes to the various newspapers saying he gave the best speech ever, and he would have an executive compensation consultant making sure he had a great golden parachute in case he needed it and would be getting a 50% raise next year if he did not need it.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Fucking pantswetting Democrats will be the death of this party. Jeez, the confidence here is really inspiring. BTW, one person here said that it’s going to be a slog because of Biden’s poor performance. No, it is going to be a slog because of our wired for white media weak Democrats who carry a fainting couch around with them.
Republicans win because they get in line and vote, no matter what. Democrats look for reasons not to vote and bitch when they lose. Oh, and good morning.
Another Scott
@Mousebumples: +1
There are no objective signs that the debate was a disaster for Biden. The stock market hardly moved. Interest rates didn’t move. Whether one trusts the accuracy of polling or not, they didn’t move.
Yes, there is a freakout by some people, especially in the political press that lives on clicks and “engagement”. I’m so old that I remember that Gaza was going to Dooommmm Biden and the Democrats. Before that it was inflation. Before that it was the price of gas. Before that it was baby formula. Before that it was vaccine mandates. Before that it was not visiting The Border. It’s always something for those folks.
Getting wound up by people who insist that Dooommm for Democrats is just around the corner isn’t good for one’s health, or American Democracy.
MomSense can feel strongly that she’s right. The rest of us can disagree.
Time will tell.
Forward!!
Cheers,
Scott.
MomSense
@oldgold:
Yup. People are saying a bad half hour doesn’t mean he can’t be president well, but in order to be president well he has to spend the next four months campaigning. I don’t think he can do that effectively. And yes, campaigning is part of the job. Communicating is part of the job.
Starfish
@TBone: He sure has a lot of faith in publicly traded companies, as if Tesla did not agree to give Elon a ridiculously large pay package, given that the competition for electric cars is getting much better, and his stupid low-polygon trucks have had to be recalled numerous times.
TBone
Blue wave anticipation 💙🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qEuV82GqQnE
Kay
@MomSense:
I agree about calling for the debate. A campaign who thought they were winning would not call for an early debate.
They know it was bad! That’s why they immediately sent Harris out there!
It’s a big hit but we have no recourse – nothing else makes sense but staying the course. I’ll tell you what I told a county chair – hedge your bet. Find a Senate campaign and focus on that. Then if your worst concerns are realized at least we’ll be able to stop him. Because there’s no point in worrying – there’s no fix to this.
satby
Ok, everyone has their own internal logic for why they feel the way they do. Fine. Presumably most of the worriers are still voting for Joe. Let’s call this an official draw and move on, because it’s not resolvable.
I put up a day after video link of Biden campaigning effectively and people are still saying he can’t. It’s like arguing with Republicans at this point.
too many typos, I’m done.
TBone
Spine of steel mood music
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oOSYB38y2xA
I have a photo of my temporary hand tattoo Stones tongue that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer from their JFK Stadium concert when I was fifteen years old.
MomSense
@Michael Bersin:
She was being a jerk so I decided to be flippant.
It’s a good thing I’m used to being the odd person out at this blog because it’s not possible for many here to just state that they disagree.
SenyorDave
@TBone: There’s a big difference between being an asshole who is the CEO of a company with a market cap of $630 billion and being a POTUS who looked old and tired and ta some points confused.
Before Thursday the election could be about competence, fitness for office. That’s out the window unless something changes. Now it has to be about character. And since a lot of Americans have shitty character that is a problem.
Barbara
@MomSense: You are one of hundreds of thousands of people who have been working on campaigns. What I mean is that as you post more about this it becomes obvious you were primed to be disappointed, and, well, I am not too surprised just based on reading other things you have written.
I lived with Eeyore for my entire childhood, and one thing I learned is that pessimists who insist that they are just telling it like it is are often tuning out positives and possibilities and are objectively harmful to growth and action. My brother never overcame the paralysis. You do you, I can’t stop you. Many left leaning progressive voices are like this. It makes me wonder if they actually know how progress happens.
O. Felix Culpa
@satby:
I think all of the good-faith worriers will vote for Joe. :)
As I said above, the source of worry for many was that the debate might cause other people not to vote for him. Some people take longer to regroup emotionally than others, especially in such a high-stakes election, and that’s ok. They’ll all still vote right.
Agreed that it’s time to move on. Isn’t Kamala a brilliant asset to the team? Old Man Biden chose well.
TBone
@SenyorDave: but it’s not my problem. Please, I am old and have little patience with men explaining things to me.
Kay
@MomSense:
My youngest son’s gf made a very good case for Kamala (it would energize people, get their attention) but unfortunately she’s only 20 and what she wants is probably impossible. I found her persuasive though – and adorable!
She’s a Wisconsin voter so I told her she has to vote for Biden and she says she will. I know you will too.
SenyorDave
@Starfish: Bullshit, CEOs have been forced out of companies. Yes, if the company is doing well the CEO is given a lot of leeway (since the main measures they use for established companies are profit and stock price) , but businesses have no problem dumping people at the top when they feel a need.
NotMax
@satby
We’re not supposed to rehash it ’til the cows come home?
And then make new hash from the cows?
//
Barbara
@Odie Hugh Manatee: It was always going to be a slog. I think people were honestly hoping for less of a slog.
O. Felix Culpa
@Michael Bersin: Thanks. :)
Baud
@O. Felix Culpa:
Normies are unreliable, see 2016, but the worst approach you can take to them is to lose faith in them. They sense that.
stinger
@O. Felix Culpa:
Interesting. I was saying on here last night that I caught only the last half hour, and Joe seemed quite as usual and a thousand times the better human being. As can happen with stammerers, maybe it took him some time to find his footing. I’ve been wondering why people who watched the entire debate were more affected by the first part than the last part, since he ended strongly. Clearly some were.
TBone
@NotMax: 🤣😁😆❤️
🎶
https://youtu.be/NOa5UOHdwnc
lowtechcyclist
@NotMax:
Well, they really need the extra cheese with all that whine. :-D
NotMax
@SenyorDave
There’s a Ms Fiorina on line 1. Calling collect.
;)
TBone
@NotMax: hahahahahahahahaha!
Baud
I wonder if this will cause the media to air more of Joe’s campaign events in the hopes he’ll stumble again.
#PowerOfPositiveThinking
MomSense
@Barbara:
No, I wasn’t primed to be disappointed. I was looking forward to the debate because I felt Biden needed to dispel all the rumors and videos that had been circulating on social media the past few months showing him looking lost, etc. I trusted the campaign that they knew he would kick ass SOTU style. I have been a consistent and strong supporter of Biden. I’ve been spending months trying to engage with young people on social media – former students, friends of my kids, relatives, people I’ve had as interns and such about Israel/Palestine, Ukraine, his age, and other issues they have with him.
You are taking my opinion now and instead of considering that I am honestly concerned about what I saw and deciding it’s better to just paint me as something else to explain it away.
Also, I’m not an Eeyore by nature at all. I probably stick with things much longer than I should
ETA You know you could have asked. I’ve been here a long time. You preferred to be passive aggressive and make assumptions about me.
TBone
@lowtechcyclist: 😆✊
Starfish
@SenyorDave: The tech CEOs have had mushy AI brain with very little innovation going on at least two years now, and the only ones being forced out are the engineers so stock prices can be goosed.
geg6
@E.:
In contrast, my feed has been full of ride or die support for Biden (and Harris, if need be). Most of my “friends” are normies and are uniformly appalled at the idea of MAGA.
TBone
@Baud: 😆
Starfish
@Baud: You are the best but also the worst.
AliceBlue
@MomSense: You’re like a fricking Chatty Cathy Doll-Politics Bedwetter Edition. Pull her string to hear her phrases and words: “I’m Furious!” “Joe Has Dementia!” “Political Malpractice” “He Can’t Campaign!!” Christ on a nuclear powered cotton baler. You’re pissed because you want everyone to agree with you that Joe needs to be replaced.
TBone
NO ONE IS GETTING A PONY
Don’t make me turn this car around so I can REALLY give you something cry about!
stinger
@SenyorDave:
Luckily, government is not a business.
O. Felix Culpa
@stinger: The difference in reactions, depending on when one tuned in and how long one watched is interesting. Suggests that just maybe the debate hot-takes don’t tell us very much about Joe’s performance at all.
You might have understated it a bit, but TRUE.
Kay
@MomSense:
I agree with 90% of what you have written but I still think he will win. But he and his team sure aren’t making that easier, so IMO you’re right to be pissed. They can’t fuck up anymore. They have no room for error.
Kay
@Baud:
lol
Harrison Wesley
Given the nasty, hostile snubbing of VP Harris by all sorts of people all over the country, I’m inclined to think that Trump didn’t consider ‘POTUS’ a part of his list of ‘Black jobs.’
JMG
@Kay: Nervous is OK. Hell, we’re all nervous. Panic is bad, and you didn’t report panic.
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud:
Perhaps we have different definitions of normies. I’m referring to people who are reliable Dems, but don’t follow politics obsessively like some of us here do. Unfortunately many of them still look at the NYT as an authoritative source. Have tried unsuccessfully to persuade them otherwise. Old habits and beliefs die hard.
Mousebumples
@Kay: agreed. I more meant the pre-debate, BUT HIS AGE!!?! complaints.
Barbara
@Kay: The way I see it is, the most important aspect of being president is having good judgment. If the president’s advisors think it consists of spouting policy related facts they are idiots. I would take Biden’s judgment on anything over Trump’s, and on most things over any of the assorted names that are listed. I have never understood the appeal of “young and fresh” or “new and different” in the presidency. Is that what you would look for in a doctor?
P.s. Did you know this pattern of using two words in English that are basically synonyms derives from the period in which the English legal system was transitioning from “law French” to English? Examples are “law and order” and “hue and cry.” Lots of others.
O. Felix Culpa
@AliceBlue: That ad hominem attack is uncalled for. Feel free to disagree with the merits of her views. I don’t blame MomSense for being worried. People process things differently and live in different situations. Your response suggests a defensiveness that is more about you than about her.
SenyorDave
@NotMax: Not sure of your point, Fiorina was named CEO of HP in 1999 and was forced to resign in 2005.
TBone
@SenyorDave: tell me you have never placed a collect call without saying you have never placed a collect call.
MomSense
@AliceBlue:
Wow, a chatty kathy bedwetter doll.
No I’m not pissed that everyone doesn’t agree with me. I am pissed at the Biden campaign. I thought the tradition on this blog was to have spirited debate about issues we care about.
SenyorDave
@AliceBlue: These sound like the types of insult a sixth grader would use.
Barbara
@O. Felix Culpa: I don’t engage in ad hominid attacks but it’s tedious to read the exact same thing over and over. I know there is a pie filter but I am reluctant to use it for a long time poster.
Eyeroller
I know there’s little point in rehashing this, but from the Cleveland Clinic:
What are the types of fluency disorders?
There are two main types of fluency disorders: stuttering and cluttering.
If you stutter, you may sound like you’re trying to say a syllable or word, but it’s not coming out. If you clutter, you may speak quickly, merging words or cutting off parts of words.
Stuttering is more common than cluttering. A person can experience both at the same time. (Emphasis mine.)
Cold+trying to manage a fluency disorder when stressed absolutely can explain Biden’s performance during the first part of the debate. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that somebody with a fluency disorder was assumed to be mentally disabled.
O. Felix Culpa
@Barbara: Believe me, there are some commenters I find tedious too! And a few I have pied. Sometimes we seem like a squabbling set of siblings who grate on each other’s nerves.
Starfish
@MomSense: Spirited debate? I thought we gave that up after the great Sanders v Clinton wars of whatever year that was, I have blocked the exact dates out of my memory. The events that followed were too traumatic.
TBone
@Baud: I’m still sticking it to The Man every chance I get.
😉🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fOKtbJfNLFk
My Meme of the Day:
1972 Dolly Parton with a big sign:
Y’ALL SUMBITCHES NEED SOME JESUS!
MomSense
@Starfish:
Fuck Wilmer and LBJ too!
O. Felix Culpa
@Barbara:
Interesting factoid! I like the rhythm of that usage.
Kristine
@Steeplejack: I posted a link to that very video in a FB group and the first comment essentially “yes, he makes good points but we still need to do it.”
MomSense
@Barbara:
My feelings won’t be hurt so go right ahead.
BTW I made two fantastic strawberry rhubarb pies on Friday.
p.a.
It’s up to Joe & his handlers now to just do better from here on out. Minimize the damage (if there actually is any- besides among our own side’s bedwetters.) That’s all there is to do. And slap the bedwetters upside the head.
And for fucks sake don’t kowtow to bad faith actors; they’re not just in conservative media. “Hey reporter X, why aren’t you asking the convicted felon and molester about dropping out? Now ask me about what I’ve accomplished.”
TBone
Men. Explain. Things. To. Me.
Yesterday, one here explained birds.
UncleEbeneezer
Dear White Liberals/Progressives,
If you ever wanted to understand why so much of the Dem Base (Black Women and the PoC etc.) are so damn reluctant to work with us, this week is your answer. It’s not because they fear we will turn around and go MAGA, it’s because we so often refuse to take our own damn side in the fight and we do so putting THEIR lives and rights on the line, much worse than our own. Panicking is a privilege that they don’t get to invoke. We should all take a lesson from their strength and resolve and try to emulate it. It’s not only the right thing to do but it also has a better chance for us winning. Black Voters in saved the damn world by coming out in droves despite a pandemic, a President weaponizing DOJ against protestors, voter suppression/intimidation efforts etc., to elect Biden, Warnock and Ossoff. They aren’t panicking now. They are backing Biden. Follow their damn lead.
oldgold
The idea that post-debate Biden has transformed into a modern Demosthenes does not conform with what my eyes and ears have taken in. He is still hard to watch and listen to.
Has he been marginally better? Yes, compared to the debate debacle. A debate where he completely blew the softball reproductive rights question. How does that happen? It was at that point in the debate my spouse fled the television room. Just before my son called and said, “Jesus Christ, someting has to be done!”
So, we watch Biden campaign a bit better, at the level of a mayor of a midsized town, and wait with anxiety for the next moment.
O. Felix Culpa
@MomSense:
I’ll be right over. :)
Barbara
@MomSense: Well, you won’t even know.
Eyeroller
@O. Felix Culpa: English has a lot of parallel vocabulary, with native Germanic words more or less coexisting with words derived from Old French. Old French was the language of the nobility for approximately 200 years after the Norman conquest, while English was the largely unwritten language of the peasantry. The best-known examples are pork/swine, beef/cow.
Those of you who are lawyers would know better than me, but from what I know of remnant French terms in “law English,” they are Old French and not Modern French, e.g. voir dire is Old French (mainly the “voir”).
206inKY
Thank you for this thread. Harris is absolute dynamite and would be an amazing candidate and president. The thing that angers me most about the talk of replacing biden is not the existence of the talk (the man is very obviously in actual cognitive decline) but that the party isn’t coalescing around harris as both the only rational option and an extremely strong candidate.
This is not a time for a primary, we need a VP to step as president in right now (the report in WSJ of biden’s behavior with world leaders in recent months made clear he’s no longer fully in command), so we’re fast approaching a Feinstein situation except with the presidency. Harris should be president now and head into November as the incumbent, and she needs a chance to choose a VP so the line of succession is clear and doesn’t get tossed to mike johnson.
VFX Lurker
Yep. I had to pie a long-time commenter here today, and I was tempted to pie another long-term commenter for the same reason.
I can write Postcards to Voters, or I can waste time talking the faint hearted off their beloved cliffs. I can’t do both, so anyone who distracts me from Postcards to Voters must pie.
EDIT – just added a third party to the pie filter. No time for fools.
Harrison Wesley
@TBone: Here, lil’ lady, let me give it a try!
https://youtu.be/-DSByyz2rFk?si=oBhnuZty6CtOyP7g
TBone
😆 I took ’em for all I could!
https://angrybearblog.com/2024/06/california-to-require-high-school-financial-literacy
🎶😆
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6YL09T8Fw
O. Felix Culpa
@Eyeroller:
My sons loved watching Ivanhoe when they were young and their favorite epithet was “Norman swine.” Second favorite was “Saxon dogs.” Very funny coming out of an incensed four-year-old’s mouth.
Mike E
@zhena gogolia: My only quibble is “untold numbers” can be more strongly expressed as “hundreds of thousands” without being inaccurate vis COVID deaths here in the US due to the inactions of that man, but I gladly endorse your very fine letter to the FNYT.
Betty Cracker
I think it’s too early to draw any firm conclusions about the effect of the debate on the race from the scant polling data so far. It’s encouraging that early reactions among undecided voters (bone heads by definition, mind you) was basically “meh — I prefer the sundowning POTUS to the lying demagogue.”
One datapoint I saw this morning counteracts a popular theme here, i.e., that everyone is overlooking Harris. Some pundits are, but a plurality of voters in the poll I saw said Harris should be the nominee if Biden steps aside. (Spoiler alert: he won’t.)
Kay
@JMG:
I think my husband is hedging though. We always donate to Sherrod but we’ve never donated enough to go to a private fundraiser before. I didn’t rsvp – my husband did. My husband is a normie and it would be perfectly in keeping for him to switch focus to someone he thinks will win and check Trump. He just moves on.
But I still think we will win. Incumbent helps a lot, so does the economy – which is good and as we saw in the midterms people will vote as if it’s good (like they are spending like it is good). A lot of it is just sticking in my craw because I hate to lose and I hate to lose to Trump and we gave him a win that night when we didn’t have to. But that’s me.
Barbara
@O. Felix Culpa: I never thought about it until I began reading a history of English on-line. “Right and just” is another example.
TBone
@Harrison Wesley:
E
A
G
L
E
S
Fly, Eagles, fly! 💚
Kayla Rudbek
@Leto: I have frequently found that my doctors and the standard pharmacist are lousy at working together so I would be checking in with a clinical pharmacist if I were Joe and Jill. I’d also be hydrating like crazy
stinger
@Barbara:
I loved Obama, and he was all of those. But Biden has been more successful in the presidency precisely because he brings 36 years in the US Senate and 8 years as VP to the job. Nobody else has that!
I did not! Now I’ll be thinking of other such usages. Thanks!
Eyeroller
@206inKY: You seriously trust the WSJ on this topic? A Murdoch paper? It’s true that their business reporting is generally reliable, but their political reporting is Fox-News-lite at best.
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker:
From the boneheads’ mouths to the FSM’s ears … and to the polling booths!
Harrison Wesley
@TBone: Oh, you meant the Birds!
TBone
They say I’m crazy, got no sense 🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Q3gd6S1as
Matt McIrvin
@Ken:
Aw, don’t pick on Mike Pence for the only great thing he ever did.
moonbat
Joe Biden HAS been campaigning since the debate and gave a great speech to a wildly enthusiastic crowd in North Carolina on Friday. Which I believe was pointed out right here on this blog.
But I guess the world stopped spinning in the first 20 minutes of a debate that happened Thursday for some people. One of the most poorly watched presidential debates in years.
People can believe, say and write what they want but saying the same thing twenty times in every thread and refusing to acknowledge or accept or deal with contrary and new evidence to an argument isn’t being “realistic” or “pragmatic.” It comes off as being borderline irrational to those of us who noticed in the aftermath that debate did not move the needle at all against Biden but instead against Trump.
If the first twenty minutes of that debate was an irretrievable disaster for the Biden campaign, where’s your evidence for that in the here and now?
Another Scott
Meanwhile, …
From the link:
It’s good to see that in print, even if we have known it for decades.
(via JoJofromJerz)
Cheers,
Scott.
O. Felix Culpa
@Eyeroller: @Barbara:
Yes, you see a lot of those one-beat, often alliterative phrases in Germanic languages. As a philologist, Tolkien used a lot of them too, to give his works an air of ancient myth.
stinger
@UncleEbeneezer:
Excellent comment.
Bupalos
If Biden decides to retire, the only considerations that I think should bear on who we select as our candidate at the convention are as follows:
– our belief in that candidate’s ability to win the election against Trump
– injecting as much democratic legitimacy into that choice as possible.
The potentially insurmountable obstacle here is that the primaries are over. I don’t really know if there are any other kludgey mechanisms for having some kind of state party plebiscite before the convention, but obviously anything like that wouldn’t have the same heft as primaries. Selecting VP Harris doesn’t fully get around the democratic legitimacy issue either. I absolutely understand the feeling that we’re locked in and thus the anger at people dwelling on the issue here.
I’ve been following reaction in Europe on this, and the whole thing points up once again how our system seems to run on an assumption of stability and norms that only looks sane from inside. From outside it looks weirder and more brittle every day. It’s frankly bizarre that 5 months out there seems to be no democratic mechanism to replace a candidate who withdraws. It’s just not clear what is supposed to happen… we just… revert to 19th century practices that no longer have any real legitimacy? This is the world’s bellwether democracy? That’s just as strange and confusing to them as the system somehow coming up with two very old guys who both have terrible approval ratings as the only possible choices.
We’ve got some real democracy issues now, ones which we haven’t been able to deal with and haven’t really tried to deal with. And now we’re faced with the increasingly likely prospect of a post-truth right wing authoritarian riding in largely on the weaknesses of our system.
gwangung
@Kay: I absolutely agree with this.
206inKY
@UncleEbeneezer: There was evidence in 2020 of substantially higher Black support for Biden during the primary. I have seen no polling that there’s any divide along race in response to the debate beyond the existing partisan divide, but the June YouGov poll shows Kamala running 10 points stronger than Biden among Black voters, which cuts against the anecdotal assertions that “listening to Black folks” means Biden over Harris.
Polling chart here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/06/28/kamala-harris-trump-matchup/
TBone
@Harrison Wesley: no, sadly no, all birds. I had to give him the Brotherly Shove.
O. Felix Culpa
@Another Scott:
Excellent article. Thank you. And with that, I really must tend to my literal garden. Have a great Sunday, all!
Kay
@Another Scott:
OMG so true. Twitter has made it so much worse too. They’re all on there reading their fellow assholes and just lemming along.
TBone
I’ve been restraining myself from posting this. If you must:
https://www.stonekettle.com/2024/06/galloping-bullshit.html?m=1
TBone
Fuck this guy, also too.
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/nation/supreme-court-ruling-joseph-fischer-january-6-trump-20240628.html
Bupalos
@206inKY: I think people weaponize this “listen to black folks” stuff in whatever way serves their preferred course of action. Tons of responses on here that amount to “if you talk about Joe Biden’s age as an electoral issue, you’re shitting on black people.”
BarcaChicago
@UncleEbeneezer: THIS. Thank you.
206inKY
@Bupalos: I think the vice presidency is strong enough mechanism in itself.
Acting sooner rather than later ensures legitimacy for whoever Harris selects as VP instead of risking Mike Johnson being next in line.
Soapdish
I have a lot of respect for MomSense’s point of view here, in part because I don’t think she’s wrong.
Lots of things can be true at the same time.
It’s not unfair to say that Biden effed the goat on Thursday, and that goat cannot be un-effed. He fully reenforced the Too Old narrative the Right has been pushing for eight years. It doesn’t matter if he has a stutter or if he had a cold or if he was better in the second half of the debate or if he’s better in front of crowds of people who are already going to vote for him anyway. Those things can be true but they also come across as excuses. Fair or unfair he needed to be SOTU Joe Every. Single. Time. in order for normies to ignore the age issue. From here on out everyone (and that probably means you, too) will wonder which Joe Biden they’ll be getting. We’ve gone from Criminal Fascist vs Old But With It Not Fascist to Criminal Fascist vs OK But At Least He’s Not Fascist.
Harris as presidential candidate would be perfectly fine to all of us here at BJ, but as @Kay noted, the racism and misogyny she would face from the Right and the media (and even within the Dems!) is a real problem. She would already have our votes; what she would need are normie votes in contested states, and I’m not convinced she’d get enough. Saying that’s because of racism and misogyny doesn’t make it any less true.
However, as noted, skipping over Harris would completely alienate (and with good reason!) a core group/groups within the Dem coalition that got Biden the W in 2020 and that we absolutely need to win in 2024.
So crudely speaking, the current options are:
1) Stick with The Senile Old Goat Effer.
2) Switch to I Would Vote For A Black Woman But Not That One.
3) Piss off women and Blacks and skip over But Not That One in favor of some undefined but most likely Straight White Johnny Unbeatable
4) ???
Pick your poison.
Fair Economist
The MSM is publishing a positive piece on Harris? I’m shocked! Not because she’s not great – she is; she’s a rock star abroad and seems to have had some excellent influence on Biden’s policies – but because the MSM resolutely ignores all the great stuff she does and normally writes only “clouds ‘n shadows” type pieces about anonymous sources alleging personal conflicts within the administration, and similar unfounded or irrelevant smears.
SteveinPHX
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
THANKS!!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@AliceBlue:
LOL. Awesome imagery.
And easily applies to other people here who just happen to be absent (this time).
Fair Economist
Changing candidates is impossible. They couldn’t use the money Biden has raised. The people pushing this schlock know that, which is why they want it to happen.
zhena gogolia
@lowtechcyclist: Thanks to you and everyone else who said nice things. I’m about to send it. It will definitely not get printed in whole or in part. But I need to send it.
YY_Sima Qian
David Remnick just piled on at the New Yorker.
In case anyone is curious how the sad spectacle of the past couple of days (the “debate” was bad enough, the mass moral panic afterward that much more so) is viewed abroad, this is making the rounds on Chinese social media wrt the irresolution on display by many of the Dem supporters:
Of course, the above is the standard Marxist-Leninist critique/trolling of the petite bourgeoisie liberal. & it is not just some members of the petite bourgeoisie that have lost their sh*t, every part of what should be the anti-Fascist coalition is well represented in the mass moral panic.
OTOH, there is this WSJ article describing reportedly widely shared concern among European officials at Biden’s noticeable decline in recent years & whether he is up to the stressful & demanding job for another 4 years. Whatever narrative we choose to tell ourselves so that the anti-Fascist coalition can forge on in this campaign & try to win in Nov., foreign observers have eyes & ears, too, that won’t be gaslighted, & they are far less sentimental.
I think it is worthwhile to keep tabs on how things are viewed overseas. Ignore the political advise (such as those joining the chorus to call for the Dems to change their nominee), but their assessment/perception of Biden specifically & US politics in general are important, as checks against anyone in the US getting high on their own supply, & because these assessments/perceptions form part of the reality that Biden & team will face if they win. Unlike “allies/partners” such as Bibi & MBS, most of the US’ allies & partners in Europe & Asia do not want to interfere in US domestic politics, & have no in facilitating a Trump win. Not even Fascist-adjacent right wing governments such as Meloni’s in Italy, I don’t think, because they do not want to be abandoned by Trump to face Putin w/o the US, nor do they want to be extorted by Trump for protection money.
Of course, we should expect the likes of Meloni in Italy, Yoon in SK & whoever succeeds Kishida in Japan will accommodate & try to ingratiate themselves to Trump if he wins. Bibi & MBS will be popping champaign alongside Putin.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@O. Felix Culpa:
Or Totebagger Radio. My extended circle of people you describe don’t read the FTFNYT but live and die by (N)ice, (P)olite (R)epublican radio and I too have not been terribly successful in getting them to listen to it critically.
Chris
@O. Felix Culpa:
The “didn’t recognize” part is one of the main reasons I don’t believe the “the cold is a cover-up, he’s got dementia” thing.
Biden losing his train of thought not only doesn’t sound like the Biden we usually see at either rallies or interviews, but from what I understand, it didn’t even sound like Debate Night Joe Biden thirty minutes later. More telling, though, is that if this was in fact something that regularly happened behind closed doors, there is simply no way it could’ve been kept quiet before now. As we saw in the last few days, there’s simply no shortage of Democrats who are ready to run to the nearest microphone and scream “BIDEN MUST QUIT!!!” Instead, pretty much everybody who’s worked with him or interviewed him says he’s lucid and normal. The only counterpoint to that was the Hur hitjob by a Republican operative and even that’s couched ambiguously enough that it just as easily supports “Biden is a criminal mastermind who’d be able to fake sympathy” as “Biden is a doddering old man.”
So no, on the substance, I don’t for one second believe Biden has dementia and is about to completely melt down before November. That leaves only the image question, i.e. Biden the candidate rather than Biden the president. It’s entirely possible, unfortunately, that the “Biden has Reaganitis” narrative sticks and kills us in November. But to the extent that we have any control over this, it’s largely in how we react to it right now. If enough Democrats continue to shit themselves in public while screaming that we gotta dump Biden, and if enough Democrats refuse to simply let this go and shrug “he had a bad night, moving on,” then yes, any chance of turning this around is probably gone. We all know why Trump being convicted on all counts didn’t make more than a modest and eminently reversible dent in his poll numbers, right? It’s because pretty much his entire party, in lockstep, has shrugged and said some combination of “media conspiracy,” “yeah but Biden’s old,” and “he hates the same people I do. Hand me the fucking ballot.” The current freakout is, largely, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Kay
@Soapdish:
Gallows humor is the best humor.
Matt McIrvin
@Bupalos: And on social media that are not here, I follow a bunch of Black progressives who have been deeply skeptical about Biden and Democrats in general all along, in a way that’s completely contrary to the atmosphere here (though they are still definitely going to vote for him). Why, it’s as if a large group of people related only by a broad ethnicity has many diverse opinions.
Baud
@Fair Economist:
I’m told Harris could use it. No one else though.
TBone
Hoo boy, “Sleepy” Joe sure is getting a LOT of FREE press coverage outta this debate!
🤭
Almost seems like he punked the RWNJs!
Dark Brandon would NEVER do that, amirite?
Manyakitty
@zhena gogolia: good. I sent something similar to WaPo when they wrote to ask me why I cancelled my subscription. Can’t hurt.
Kay
The brain trust at the NYTimes think Gina Raimondo can beat Trump.
Buy it for the puzzles or recipes or product reviews or fancy wedding announcements but no one should take it seriously on politics. They’re stupid people.
Mike E
@Betty Cracker: someone here made the apt comparison to the US effort in WW2 winning the war though “stumbling” at a few initial junctures (N Africa, Pacific, Holland) because the stakes could not be any higher. Similarly, I believe Joe will win, having righteous fervor on his side, and pull enough Dems over the finish line for a momentous 2 year period for his team (which includes Harris) to carry the baton into the not distant future without him should he determine he’s done giving everything he can for his country, or he’s sadly no longer with us.
Think about it through the repub lens: they’d have pulled any maneuver (SCOTUS seats being a prime example) to install their guy(s), without any hesitation, regardless of optics or ethics, but here the Dems can highten their differences from a completely bankrupt political party and make their efforts truly count. Of course, they have headwinds coming at them (as do we) from a corporate-captured press no matter what they do during this crisis in democracy, so it’s circle the wagons time and give these fuckers what for.
Baud
@Kay:
She just lost Chevron!
206inKY
@Eyeroller: Did you read the article?
It was written by Annie Linskey (former Post reporter), Laurence Norman (international desk), and Drew Hinshaw (international desk). This is not the batshit editorial board.
https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/biden-age-concerns-world-leaders-democrats-6d753921
Baud
@TBone:
No, but in my field of useless dreams, I do hope this shakes some people out of their complacency and doldrums.
Bupalos
@206inKY: It’s a mechanism anyway. I won’t say it’s strong enough, but maybe it’s the most legitimacy we could wring out of it.
I don’t really think Harris gives us a better chance than Biden, but I think I’d still marginally prefer that be the matchup. I really think Biden v. Trump now is shaping up to be democratically toxic and this all feels like a toxic paralysis forming. One thing I feel like we really need to digest and believe in is that the rules we think we know do not necessarily apply, and we shouldn’t be bound by old assumptions without asking ourselves if they are really in force anymore. The opposing candidate is a convicted felon who led an attempt at autogolpe and promises to govern by revenge. So maybe “but you can’t have discord at your convention” might not apply.
Even pulling together and bringing Biden over the line for a win, I have some fears about what that aftermath looks like now that some of the Trumpist narratives about him have more cachet. I’m so sad Joe didn’t take the opportunity to retire from a point of strength, right after the ACA.
Manyakitty
@satby: malice and cynicism. They’re pushing for Brown because losing him will cost Democrats the Senate. Just repulsive.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: My impression is that Harris has not impressed in her trips to the Asia Pacific region, but that could just be a mixture of widespread racism & misogyny among E/SE Asian elites, as well as the fact that Biden’s foreign policies are less well received in the region. Everyone outside of Japan/Australia/the Philippines/Taiwan are frightened by the bi-partisan moral panic in DC wrt the PRC, & Biden’s eagerness to engage in Great Power Competitive w/ the PRC that jeopardizes decades of “East Asian Peace”. Fear concerning the bi-partisan turn toward economic nationalism is universal in the region.
Me, I think she has been underutilized by the Biden team, both domestically & internationally, & should be allowed more leeway to go beyond standard talking points w/ her interlocutors.
Miss Bianca
@UncleEbeneezer: Yeah, that’s where I’m at right now. Do I wish Biden and his people had just taken the stand that debating a 34-count felon was beneath his dignity? Sure I do, and I’ve been wishing that since before the announcement of the debates in question, but then sure as shit stinks, the media and the usual suspects in the “liberal” punditariat would have piled on him for *that* decision.
There was no way to win that decision. So let’s pick up the shattered pieces of our lives and move on.
Jesus, I thought I was a pessimist and an Eeyore. It sure takes some *massive* amounts of pearl-clutching to make me feel like fucking Pollyanna around here.
TBone
@Baud: he sure was perky immediately afterwards!
😆
Dr. Jill leading him offstage was *chef’s kiss
Baud
@TBone:
Who’s he? I was talking about voters.
Eyeroller
@206inKY: Annie Linskey was terrible when she was at the Post. No surprise she’s at a Murdoch paper now.
YY_Sima Qian
@Frankensteinbeck: It is always the coalescing conventional wisdom post-event that does the damage, rather than the event itself.
Betty Cracker
@Matt McIrvin: Shocker! ;-)
Soapdish
YES! Norms are just that and often need to be broken.
TBone
@Baud: I thought you were replying to my #242. No?
Manyakitty
@OzarkHillbilly: my god. The pantshitting is unbearable.
Baud
@TBone:
Yes.
Jackie
@satby:
From what I’ve seen, non MAGA republicans and former republicans have more faith in Joe than pearl-clutching, groping for the fainting couch democrats. It’s mind blowing.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Mike E:
That was me. I’ve been using Operation Market Garden as an example but there are a plethora of them as you mention in general (Anzio, the early stages of the US invasion of North Africa, etc). Yeah, FDR should have fired Ike immediately.
Bupalos
@Chris: I agree with the idea that pundits are being irresponsible and counterproductive with public calls for Biden to be replaced. I even think it’s fair to ask about their motives when they are using their public platform that way.
I just hope folks here understand the difference between public articles and private discussion.
Mike E
@Eyeroller: Seriously. People want to drive a wedge here there and everywhere by using shitty media outlets and fucked polling. Don’t get me wrong, I’d gladly get behind a strong executive like Harris but let’s not kid ourselves about the very present misogynoir that immediately removes 3-5% of support from Black women when they run in statewide (i.e. senate, governor) and national elections. Oh, and bupalos is a troll.
Manyakitty
@SenyorDave: tell that to Tesla. They just gave Elmo a big enough bonus to cover his Twitter loss. Bullshit.
Baud
@Jackie:
Republicans are more mission oriented. Liberals like to be free wheeling independent thinkers. I’m more aligned with the Republican personality in this instance.
Fair Economist
Even if Biden were senile, which he isn’t, I’d favor sticking with him because it seems to be causing the media to talk up other Democratic candidates. It’ll likely be one of them in 2028, and this is impairing the usual pre-smear approach. I think it’ll improve the chances of Harris or Whitmer or Newsom in 2028 if the media spends a year saying “Democrats should have picked them.”
Mike E
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Cool. Also, the Civil War with that m-f’er McClellan.
Reboot
@MomSense: Delurking: Biden’s polling went up a point, post-debate. His post-debate donations have been twice those of Trump’s the last I read. He’s been the best president of my lifetime with the greatest number of substantive accomplishments. Why would I (or anyone) want to give that up? Your scenario would require an army of wizards wielding magic wands to wave away the confusion of choosing a new candidate (since you don’t mention Kamala), getting funding, and trying to get pissed-off Biden supporters on board, and attempting to do this in about two weeks to have any semblance of a campaign in the remaining months.
I’ve enjoyed your comments and hearing about your new place–your stance seems like a real departure from your previous online presence.
Manyakitty
@TBone: I don’t want a pony! I want a magical sparklecorn!!!!! Waaaaahhhhhhh! (Shits pants and runs away)
Michael Bersin
@MomSense:
I disagree.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Mike E:
We could devote an entire front page post and comment thread to the parallels between pre-Civil War ‘Murka and today.
Baud
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
The mainstream media owns half this party.
Chris
@AliceBlue:
Well, I’m definitely writing that one down.
CliosFanBoy
@zhena gogolia:
But he hurt the NYTs fee-fees by not giving them an interview!!!!
BarcaChicago
@Reboot: Agree with everything you said.
zhena gogolia
@Kay: I did come around to your position that maybe somebody on the comms team should be fired.
Ruckus
@Scout211:
All of this.
Damn it when are we going to grow the hell up and actually recognize that no human is perfect, no matter how white or male or angry or what the hell ever.
There is always someone who will complain. He’s too old, she’s black. Think about the last person in that office, he’s too old, he’s too shitty, he’s too much asshole, he’s too stupid. And I’m sure I missed something.
No one will ever be everyone’s first choice. But this isn’t a high school “political” job – student body president, this is running a country. It’s not that there is only one human on the planet that can do the job, there are likely a fair number of people that can do the job, out of the millions of us that live here. But it also takes someone who wants to do the job, to put up with the crap that a not insignificant percentage are going to throw their way, because this is not their first choice. Or any choice. We had shitforbrains, isn’t that lesson enough that not everyone is qualified?
Al Rennick
Biden can spare everyone a lot of grief, frustration, and anxiety by announcing his resignation effective at noon on the 4th of July and requesting that his delegates vote for Kamala Harris on the first ballot at the August convention.
Mike E
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: History neither rhymes nor repeats itself, it just reports on the same damn white patriarchy since the forge* was invented.
*printing press, too
Jackie
@Baud:
I don’t think Joe will.
The media also needs to start airing TCFG’s FULL speeches – especially Faux – who is afraid for their viewers to see and understand he’s a maniac and dangerous for America.
Another Scott
@YY_Sima Qian: Sure, it’s good to keep foreign leaders opinions, etc, in mind – the US is less than 5% of the world population after all.
But I can’t help but (roughly) remember a BBC World Service interview a few months ago with some US law professor about the latest SCOTUS reversal of some Biden policy, and the interviewer seemed incredulous that Biden was constrained by the result. She had no apparent understanding, at all, about Separation of Powers and similar fundamentals of our system. I don’t fault the newsreader as much as the producers and the people constructing the questions.
As here, too often perception has little relation to reality. Too often reporting is wrong, or has category errors.
We’ve got to keep doing the work and moving forward. There are no shortcuts.
Thanks.
Cheers
Scott.
Bupalos
@UncleEbeneezer: There are multiple ways to panic. One of them is to freeze and go into denial. I absolutely agree that folks doing public articles and public calls for a replacement are being counterproductive. I really don’t agree that we shouldn’t take a beat here, look at the full landscape, and consider our options. To me, that is what “not panicking” looks like. I’m having a real hard time with some of the constraints people are insisting we’re bound by.
MomSense
@Soapdish:
I agree with the options and obviously I won’t be in the room where it happens. I picked the Biden needs to step aside for Harris poison because I think it is unrealistic to expect Biden will be 100% every time in the grueling and stressful last four months of a campaign. I also think that the more we see him the more it will remind us that he is just not as sharp as he was.
Anyway I’ve obviously said too much and have annoyed everyone.
zhena gogolia
@MomSense: We all love you. I just hope you’re wrong about this.
zhena gogolia
@oldgold: NO ONE SAID HE WAS A MODERN DEMOSTHENES.
You are an ableist and an ageist.
Kay
@YY_Sima Qian:
I don’t know if this is widely known (it may be – not sure) but the pro Palestinian people I have met much prefer Harris to Biden – they think she has pushed back against the Biden Administration policy and is not anti Arab and anti Muslim (both of which they believe about Biden’s team). They follow it very closely – they’re probably right that she has pushed back. They usually are right on the specifics.
Eyeroller
@Baud: Yeah, I sometimes think my personality is such that I would have been a conservative without learning to think, learning some things about cognitive biases, and being around a lot of smart (often smarter) people from graduate school onward. This “won’t take their own side in a fight” is maddening to me. It also seems to be a common conviction that “I know the truth, and I am a truth-teller, and I feel compelled to share that truth with the world no matter the consequences.” The “purity ponies” are the extreme end of this. But I personally am outcomes-oriented. I’m something of a misanthrope too, so not really too tribal, at least so I think.
Some research I’ve seen shows that the biggest personality difference between liberals and conservatives is that the former scores higher on “openness” than the latter. Conservatives also tend to score higher on “conscientiousness.” (Although it turns out that apparently the worst people are conservatives with low conscientiousness.) I’m not sure how that translates to political orientation. It’s not the only factor, and personality isn’t actually deterministic but can change at least to some extent based on environment and experiences.
Chris
@Kay:
Who the fuck is Gina Raimando. DC or Marvel?
zhena gogolia
@Kay: I haven’t read their political coverage for ages.
Eyeroller
@zhena gogolia: That commenter has been riding this hobby horse since before the primaries. He also was certain that a jury couldn’t remember evidence from Wednesday to (IIRC) Tuesday.
Manyakitty
@Miss Bianca: seriously. JFC.
SenyorDave
@Manyakitty: Tesla’s BOD has (correctly, in my opinion) decided that what Musk brings to Tesla (fanboys who pump up Tesla stock and analysts who think every new idea he pushes is the greatest thing since sliced bread) outweighs his negatives. Tesla’s market cap has gone from $50 billion to $630 billion in six years. That’s a 52% annual increase.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
I’m not entirely comfortable with the pronouncements on black people, either. I’m also not comfortable with the idea that black people can’t make demands of politicians and that is exclusively reserved for “privileged people”. What? Are we sure we want to say this over and over? Hmmm.
It’s like “black people can’t protest at college because they must be pragmatic” What nerve. Who are we to say what they do at college? I think they can protest exactly like every other pain in the ass 20 year old.
zhena gogolia
@Eyeroller: Oh, right, I forgot that.
Manyakitty
@Al Rennick: yummy. More pie.
Another Scott
@zhena gogolia: “Biden campaign in panic and turmoil, fires comms team. Clouds and shadows envelope them about their ability to find competent staff. Questions from respected long-time Democrats who ran Mondale’s campaign about their ability to finish the job…” – FTFNYT.
Meh.
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
TBone
@Manyakitty: 😆😆😆❤️🤭
Manyakitty
@TBone: 😘
Another Scott
@Al Rennick: “everyone” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
You don’t speak for me.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kay
@Chris:
lol. She’s business friendly. They love her. The NYTimes political team wil not be happy until the lower classes are punished with 16% unemployment again. They want consequences for the peons. Suffering builds character, except for them and the others in their class.
YY_Sima Qian
@Another Scott: On the nitty-gritty details of US domestic politics, I agree. On the question whether Biden has declined significantly, & has declined enough to become limited in fulfilling his job, the impressions & assessment of senior foreign officials are relevant (because the stakes are almost as high for them), & indeed potentially more insightful (because they are less sentimental) if they are willing to be more open.
For the purpose of the election in Nov., whether & how much Biden has declined is irrelevant to me. We are voting for the Biden-Harris ticket, to keep Trump & the Rs from power.
Reboot
@BarcaChicago: Thanks. Now back to lurking!
YY_Sima Qian
@Chris: I think Gina Raimondo is among Biden’s worst cabinet members, but the decision to throw out Chevon deference is all on the Reactionary 6 on the SCOTUS.
Kay
@Another Scott:
Right but there’s an actual world where they did bad work and will do it again unless they’re checked.
They can’t have that job if they still don’t know how Trump “debates”! I mean, come on. Work harder. Watch some you tubes.
They could have looked at the 2020 debate. Biden was loose and easy and making fun of Trump. There was zero fucking policy and we won. We literally would have been better off if none of them came to work.
TBone
Y’all sumbitches need some jeebus.
🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xrrPG_VlvIQ
Also
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xY0WZWGco_0Aww
Ya picked a fine time to leave me, LOOSE WHEEL
YY_Sima Qian
@Kay: I’ve read that about Harris, too. Very different lived experiences versus Biden.
Ruckus
@Ned F.:
She’s a WOMAN. How could she possibly be qualified?
Oh I don’t know, she’s been in politics for a fair bit of time, she’s smart, thoughtful, likely to be dramatically far more representative to dramatically far more people than shitforbrains was, especially as he was representative to one person – shitforbrains.
Listen, I’m a white, male, old fart and if I’ve learned noting else in all this time it’s that many people are capable, many, far more than first glance might see. And we’ve seen far more than just first glance at the qualities of this human being.
Some, enough, citizens voted for shitforbrains to be president and look how well that worked out. Is it possible that we might consider an alternative to white, male, old farts? And yes I’m one of those. This is supposed to be a representative government, and we continue to hire old, white men to the job. We can do better, at least some of us are capable of that. Sure we hired a black man and damn if he wasn’t pretty damn good at the job. It’s past time.
Mike E
@zhena gogolia: Yet another troll, this episode has been quite illuminating here… I’ve updated my pie filter to include a couple of frequent commenters and reinstated a couple of them because I see they are just a bit, um, rude rather than manipulators, hah. (One popped up in my filter when I hadn’t placed them there, I wonder if they go by additional nyms here)
Chris
@Bupalos:
That’s true, but I also don’t think I or anyone here knows enough about this shit to say when the rules should be changed or to what.
The people who are in the best position to judge this are Jill Biden on one hand and senior Democratic Party officials like Pelosi and Jeffries on the other. Jill knows Joe Biden better than anyone, the others also know him and work with him fairly often and also have a long track record in politics, including bucking conventional wisdom when necessary. And none of these people are joining the panic.
Is it possible that Biden really is senile and Jill just doesn’t have the heart to tell him to stop? Sure. Is it possible that Pelosi, by far the most effective Washington politician in this century, is ignoring her common sense because she’s too proud to back down from the Biden train? Sure. Is it possible that Jeffries and the other politicians are the same way? Sure. Are all of these things possible at once? … I suppose, but now it’s getting pretty unlikely. Are all or most of these people pressuring Biden but he’s just too stubborn and proud to stop down? Also possible, but I can’t imagine that that wouldn’t have leaked by now.
None of these people are hacks. All of them want the party to win in November more than anyone, including Jill Biden, and when it comes to the latter I can’t imagine the selfish part of her wouldn’t be relieved, if anything, at having her husband finally leave the shit-show behind to just be with her, especially given the “not that many years left” factor. All of them also know more about politics than anybody calling for Biden to step down, including people like Paul Krugman that I like and respect but do not have a superior grasp of what’s politically realistic than them. So I’m going to keep looking to them for the answer to the question “what’s our least bad option for November.”
Baud
@Eyeroller:
I feel like I might have been a conservative if they weren’t sleazy and bigoted.
Ksmiami
@Kay: idiot. If anything, Gretchen Whitmer would be amazing as a VP to Harris and is beloved in a Swing State. Not to mention, they would both be remarkable on women’s rights and delve into why Republicans basically want to erode everything good in America. I mean if the Democratic Party is dumb enough to do this, go out with the best possible solution.
TBone
It must be the gag order 🤭
https://digbysblog.net/2024/06/30/why-are-the-republicans-so-quiet/
O. Felix Culpa
@YY_Sima Qian:
“Could” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I married into an E. Asian family and lived many years there, and you can cut the racism with a knife, as I’m sure you know.
The problem Kamala has faced is that the media doesn’t cover her many, many activities and responsibilities, and then turns around and says no one knows what she’s doing. Gosh, I wonder why?
We can take it as a given that they are not operating in good faith.
Kay
@YY_Sima Qian:
Yup. They think the Biden people have genuine hostility towards Palestinians. IOW it isn’t just “Netanyahu” or “Israel”. It is the United States. It’s interesting. For me, once you start to hear it you can’t not hear it – the bias. But the US is a long, long way from recognizing it, I’m afraid. We’re at the beginning of seeing some of this as religious/ethnic bigotry. I think (some) other countries are further along.
Eyeroller
@YY_Sima Qian: I’d like to know who these world leaders, or their spokespeople, are who are indiscreet enough to blab this to a reporter. Some of them have agendas as well. Quite a few would prefer Trump.
Bupalos
@Kay: Definitely appreciate your take here and that was honestly my first thought when I saw real-time reaction to the debate start to drip in here. “Let’s go Sherrod!” We need to leverage some fear of an incoming Trump administration into a stronger defensive position should (what is now) the expected happen in November at the presidential level.
While I’m marginally more open than you to the idea of really considering our other bad options (because I think the rules may actually be somewhat different now,) I think your take here is generally very solid. Which isn’t surprising as you’re one of the most tied in to active on-the-ground politics here.
Eyeroller
@Baud: I grew up in a sleazy and bigoted part of the country. It would have been easy for me to fall into that, and in fact I was influenced by it until graduate school
Miss Bianca
@Bupalos: “consider our options” is such a nice, neutral-sounding way to say “throw the election to Trump”. Your concerns are fucking noted.
Ksmiami
@MomSense: focus on House and Senate races. The good news in all this is Trump is horrible on everything and that hasn’t changed. All that supposed Hispanic outreach- gone with fascist diatribes during the debate- Rt leaning Univision audiences are pissed. African-American outreach… gone too. Women are second class citizens in nearly half the country now and we have a Rogue Supreme Court that needs to be burnt into ash. So forget Biden’s foibles and fight.
O. Felix Culpa
@Ksmiami:
Well said. And, from what I know (virtually) of MomSense, she is going to do that. As am I.
Bupalos
@Miss Bianca: I really do understand the impulse here and don’t blame people for it. We’re all freaking out, whether we’re doing that by considering options or insisting there can be none or acting like we know with certainty what rules are in play and what outcomes follow from what actions.
Consider that one of the differences in assumptions here is that prior to ’23 I though the age issue would prove really hard to surmount in this electorate, and I’ve considered Biden slightly more likely to lose than win at every point. Largely because of global patterns and forces pushing politics in that direction. So it’s really hard for me to get into the assumptions you’re operating from. It’s alarming from the point of view of the solidarity we’re going to need in this election and coming years that the first and strongest reaction to differing opinions are accusations of bad faith.
Ksmiami
@Baud: I grew up in a ritzy conservative CA suburb, started out Republican but watched the party shit the bed repeatedly on the economy and become the party of religious idiots and intolerance esp towards women etc. To me, the GOP actually offers nothing but nihilism and chaos and to be a Republican today means you are by definition a really horrible person. So the Dems aren’t perfect, but they aren’t destroying our civilization
Ruckus
@oldgold:
I’ve been in a position of having to speak to large audiences and at first it can seem overwhelming, but it is really no different than speaking to one. You will never win over everyone, but the reality is that you only have to win over enough. If you try to win over everyone you will likely say nothing of substance or worse – pure bullshit. And you will win over none. And speaking as if speaking to one is far easier than attempting to speak to all, and once again, if it is much of an audience you will NEVER positively reach all.
Your job is to reach enough.
YY_Sima Qian
@Eyeroller: The WSJ article has a few on record, including Donald Tusk (PM of Poland), & a few others identified beyond “anonymous official”. Outside of Viktor Orban, I highly doubt any of the European capitals prefer Trump over Biden.
Baud
@Ksmiami:
We’re morally superior, but constitutionally interior, I’m afraid.
Ruckus
@O. Felix Culpa:
We can take it as a given that they are not operating in good faith.
Everyone operates from their own perspective. EVERYONE.
If that perspective is selfish (which humans are – survival and all that) but if it is extremely selfish, no one else will be considered in any way) And many people are extremely selfish. Remember the one simple rule of humanity, to be human one has to survive. Now there are humans who will work FOR humanity as a whole. They are reasonably rare. There are people who will give their lives for others. They are reasonably rare and rarer than those that will work for humanity.
206inKY
@Kay: I think you’re right but also the human brain changes over time. The electorate has millions of people who have seen loved ones or colleagues work through undiagnosed, early-stage dementia, quite often younger than 81. Biden has always faced ableism from his stutter; what we saw was not that. There is zero chance his debate team prepped him to include this in a question about abortion:
“Look, there’s so many young women who have been – including a young woman who just was murdered and he went to the funeral. The idea that she was murdered by an immigrant coming in and (inaudible) talk about that.”
The entire answer didn’t use the words “abortion” or “choice.” The closest he came was this:
”And this is the guy who says the states should be able to have it. We’re in a state where in six weeks you don’t even know whether you’re pregnant or not, but you cannot see a doctor, have your – and have him decide on what your circumstances are, whether you need help.”
Not a woman’s choice but a doctor’s choice, with the pronoun “him.” Then he veered into reinforcing Trump’s idea that immigrants are murderers. In 2020, Biden himself would have known better.
Harris can win this thing with clear communication about the stakes of the election. That is a basic responsibility of the candidate, not just the prep team.
Chris
@Baud:
What was that quote about FDR? “Third rate intellect but first rate temperament?” Could use a lot more of that, we could.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kay: OK, I’m done. I’ll wait until people calm the duck down
Kay
@Bupalos:
Sherrod Brown is prickly. He’s opinionated and intense. He doesn’t suffer fools. I think peoples impressions of him as “generic acceptable white male candidate” are a little off. He told a group of us in 2020 that if he was running for President he would have had to have been in California raising money at that moment and that just sounds awful to him.
Bill Arnold
@SenyorDave:
Alternative formulation, that is at least as true:
Seriously: Mr Trump constantly lies, and many of those lies are old material, lies have been debunked multiple times, and these lies formed most of his Gish Gallup during the “debate”.
On top of that, he is functionally illiterate, or close to it, did not pay attention to his daily briefings, has gross and disqualifying personality flaws (pathological narcissism, etc), and is now regularly glitching on camera in ways that look to many mental health professionals like signs of some form of progressive dementia. His primary sources of information are right wing infotainment “media” and the right wing social media disinformation/misinformation sewage lagoon, with additional feeders from right-wing advisors, some of whom are arguably insane/delusional. This broken [set of priors] means that he cannot be trusted to reliably make correct or even coherent decisions. This is acknowledged by many/most of his former direct reports, who mostly refuse to endorse him.
Etc.
JML
Biden isn’t stepping down because a) he doesn’t want to, b) yielding the power of incumbency is a pretty huge error, and c) there’s literally no one that could unite the party at this late date; none of the options are universally beloved, all have constituencies that have issues, none of have been vetted as a candidate this cycle, etc.
But the other massive reason Biden isn’t stepping down is you simply cannot allow the Orange Idiot a WIN on this. He will get credited for forcing his opponent out of the race, which automatically elevates him and diminishes everyone else that might take him on. The media isn’t going to turn on him and demand that he drop out next, especially with so much of the media being bought and paid for right-wing scum.
Biden is fine. He didn’t have a great night, but that’s also because it’s very hard to debate a lunatic and liar. Biden crushed it at the rallies the next day, that’s for damn sure.
Less freakouts. More organizing. This election comes down to turnout, period.
Madeleine
@zhena gogolia: Thank you for posting your letter. I hope the wretched NYT publishes it. It is succinct, clear, and comprehensive. I cannot imagine a better one.
wjca
Let me start with some full disclosure. Four years ago, i.e. during the primaries, I was definitely not a Harris fan. Even before her campaign imploded. Wasn’t particularly enthused by Biden either TBH. The guy I thought had the best shot against Trump was actually Buttigeig. (This despite being personally pretty damn homophobic.) Yeah, he had holes in his resume, to put it mildly; but not compared to Trump. And I though he would campaign better than most of the field.
All that said:
– The only people who sincerely think Biden had a worse debate than Trump are a) some long-time Democrats, who will vote for him anyway, or b) Trump cultists. Pretty much everybody else thought Trump was appalling. (Not to mention provided enough soundbytes to keep the Dark Brandon folks busy forever.) Biden wasn’t in top form, but even so, overall he won.
– Anyone who thinks that (absent a major medical event) having Biden step aside is a good strategic move is, bluntly, nuts. The number of Democratic constituencies who would be upset (to put it mildly) is enormous. The number of additional votes it would gain is microscopic. And that’s making the heroic assumption that it would be a net positive among non-Democrats.
– Replacing Biden, if done, with anyone but Harris is simply not on. For openers, there would be the challenge of even getting him on the ballot in some states. (Not just red ones either. There are rules for these things.) Then there’s the problem of financing, when the big money is currently in Biden-Harris accounts, and not really transferable. After which, there’s the need to create a 50 state campaign organization in days (because there simply aren’t weeks to spend). The list goes on and on.
– If you simply gotta have someone else, Harris has grown enormously in the past four years. There simply isn’t anyone else, at this date, with her chops. Period.
Net/net: Agonizing over the debate, or the “need” for someone else, is a waste of time and energy at this point. If you are so upset that you just can’t work for Biden any more, there are lots of Congressional (not to mention state) races that could definitely use your help. Time to move on.
Madeleine
@Bill Arnold: I stopped reading comments at #176 in order to write a thanks, below, to zhena gogolia, so this may have been mentioned, but— why have the media not told people what a gish gallop is? Why have they not pointed out that that was trump’s strategy as he lied his way through the debate?
Ella in New Mexico
@Betty Cracker: everything I’ve see says blacks, Latinos and undecided voters actually listened to what the two guys were saying and are supporting Biden now.
My sense is the freak out and pleas to Replace Joe are because of the possibility of turning off “some voters” as opposed to those of us who went with the ticket in 2020z.
If anyone here who voted for Biden-Harris last time still thinks it’s essentially the same race of good v.evil I don’t see them voting directly for Trump or Third Party (indirectly for Trump) because the stakes are the same as they were in 2020.
And if the other swing groups are also in his camp, I think a lot of this “Replace Joe” crap is just the Ezra Klein wing of the pundit class. And TBH, I’d like to ask his punk ass just who the fuck will HE be voting for if it’s still Joe and Kamala? Jill Stein? RFKJr?
I don’t think so. He also knows the score.
Soprano2
@zhena gogolia: Fantastic letter, I hope they publish it.
Soprano2
@Mousebumples: I think it’s easily 95% of the reason so many white people are freaking out.
Look, Democratic operatives performed WORSE than Biden did. They shouldn’t have been texting people during the debate about how they were freaking out; they should have been texting about how unhinged TCFG was, how many lies he told, how he was afraid to answer the questions. When asked about Biden, they should have said “Yes, his performance wasn’t the best. He has a cold and was having problems with his stutter, but his positions are good ones and he tells the truth. Did you hear how many lies TCFG told?” Rinse and repeat, over and over. Instead, they let the whole world know they’re pants-wetting nannies. It was embarrassing. Biden should verbally smack them around some.
Soprano2
@satby: I agree with this. Getting old is not for the faint of heart.
zhena gogolia
@Madeleine: I just now realized I left out the 34 felony convictions! I was in such a hurry.
old
@Eyeroller: Yes, early on I expressed concerns about Biden’s age. And, over the last few days have had to exercise considerable restraint in not saying “I told you so.” Very similar to the Mueller fiasco that I predicted early on.
And, yes, I was sharply critical of the Judge’s dilatory scheduling during documents trial. And, I stand by that as an experienced litigator. But, I never said it would preclude a jury verdict of guilty.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@wjca: thank you.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@zhena gogolia: goes without saying. Thank you, too.
oldgold
@Eyeroller: Yes, early on I expressed concerns about Biden’s age. And, over the last few days, I have had to exercise considerable restraint in not saying “I told you so.” This is very similar to the Mueller fiasco.
And, yes, I was sharply critical of the Judge’s dilatory scheduling during documents trial. And, I stand by that as an experienced litigator. But, I never said it would preclude a jury verdict of guilty.
brantl
@MomSense: Good luck with that, no offense to either of them, but Joe isn’t down, much less out.
K-Mo
@Kay:
Harris-Brown 2024!!!
brantl
@satby: me, too. Everybody shitting their pants (once for effect, the second just for practice) is a self-own, knock it the fuck off, people.
Jinchi
I’ve always preferred the standard: “When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.”
It’s very cathartic and gets your steps in.
K-Mo
@Jinchi: Just as good as burying your head in the sand.
RaflW
@RevRick: As I understand it, so far the Johnny Unbeatables who’s names get bandied about have generally said “this is not my moment” because they know all this, these actual logistical mountains that pundits in their cozy studies are clueless about and waive away.