I know this puts me firmly at odds with the vast majority of those of you reading this, and with probably the vast majority of the American public, but I hate protests/rallies, regardless the topic. And that means election rallies, anti-abortion/pro-abortion, etc. All of them.
I just don’t like them. I don’t trust groups of people gathered together all inflamed about an issue, I don’t think anyone ever has their minds changed by protests/tallies, I don’t like how they are stage-managed, I don’t like how they reduce complicated positions to stupid slogans, I don’t like how the hotheads are the most prevalent (they should be at home banging out stuff on silly websites like Balloon Juice), I don’t like the way people treat each other at rallies, I don’t like all the hysterical and breathless news coverage, I don’t like the way the police always seem to get involved, I d0n’t like the way they ruin the lives of the people who are unfortunate enough to live where the masses end up, I don;t like any of it.
And yes, this is where some knucklehead tells me I am wrong because without civil rights marches, yadda, yadda, yadaa. Fine, I will make one exception. But other than that, I don’t like ’em.
At any rate, exhibit A in why I don’t like rallies/protests is the current spectacle in Crawford. As an example of everything I don’t like, we have this clown running around with a sign that says “How to wreck your fmaily in 30 Days by the Bitch in the Ditch.” At least the Freeperati confronted him.
For my money, that may be the most offensive thing I have seen yet (even topping the cynical ‘memorial’ of all the crosses at Camp Crawford, including even the jackass who ran his truck through them).
So there you have it. I hate America. But what do you expect when you have a faction of anti-war protesters galvanized with neo-Nazi’s and parents of dead soldiers against the war fighting against a group of ‘pro-war’ supporters with freepers and parents of dead soldiers who support the war? This is exactly the type of ugliness I expected and predicted.
*** Update ***
Apparently, Bill Ardolino hates America too:
don’t think that the most vitriolic scenes that I witnessed that Sunday were in any way representative of mainstream opinion on either side of the debate. Upon reflection, it was typical mob behavior, as the most ignorant and nasty elements of the crowd fed off of the general mass of chattering, negative energy and lashed out at their opponents. Whether it’s a gathering of 50 or 500,000, the trend is clear: nuts always come out to protest.
I guess it’s just a little depressing when you witness how many nuts there really are …
*** Update ***
I better update this before I make Armando blow a gasket or make the baby Jesus cry. I don’t think Mother Sheehan and her anti-war crowd are aligned with neo-Nazi’s, I think they are spouting some of the same anti-Israel claptrap and the neo-Nazi’s and David Duke have seized upon the protest to push their sick agenda, and they are all against Bush and this war (or, as I stated before, galvanized: To arouse to awareness or action). Just so we are clear, and I don’t have some idiot running around claiming I think Cndy Sheehan is a neo-Nazi. At any rate, I still hate protests and rallies because neo-Nazi’s and all sorts of folks like them are always drawn to them.
capelza
The civil rights marches were moving and non-violent protests. Large groups of people gathered to that spoke volumes by their sheer numbers. Also, in that day, watching peaceful protesters attakced by water cannons and dogs did have an impact. (I also have to note that Charleton Heston has my undying respect for marching for time with them, as well as some other things he has said and done..another story).
Somewhere after that so many of the marches became theatre and a big party (a generalisation, I agree, but true in many respects). Though I have to say that Kent State was very powerful afterwards, because of those kids who died. Beyond that, I too cringe, anymore at a lot of the protests.
Sheehan’s protest has been marred by the circus, the protests outside of Terri Schiavo’s hospice were apalling (Juggler’s for Jesus?), particularily because they were utterly disruptive for the other families who has dying loved ones there. I had a great seat in a downtown hotel in Seattle during the WTO protests. What a bunch of utter malarkey that was.
jobiuspublius
It’s like TV, if you don’t like the channel, then don’t go there. I think it’s really important to maintain the right to peaceable assemble. I take it for granted I suppose.
Clearly, it’s the peaceable part that the anti-sheehan mob forget. It’s not surprising.
Joe Albanese
All I have to say about the recent anti-war / pro-war protests is that they have gotten America to seriously discuss Iraq. The pundits are talking about Iraq. Our politicians are talking about Iraq, the media is talking about Iraq, and most importantly, regular people around the office water cooler are talking about Iraq. To me, that is a good thing. But, I imagine for those that supported this misguided adventure, like John Cole, the less talk about Iraq the better. Sorry John, but don’t despair, there could always be another blond found missing to distract us from the mess in Messopotania.
Doug
I’m not a big participant in protests or demonstrations. In fact, the only one I’ve taken part in was a pro-Iraq war (the first one) rally that sort of formed spontaneously at Miami University. I could actually feel, in a small way, how the mob mentality takes hold. You get to feeling like you’ll follow the mob where ever it goes. So, they can be dangerous.
But, I think what they do that is valuable, even if they don’t change minds, is to let people who hold a particular view know that they aren’t alone. I think one tactic proponents of the status quo often use is to make detractors feel marginalized. Demonstrations and rallies help minimize the marginalization.
John Cole
You know, Joe, I can tolerate the outright stupidity from you. I really can. But your snide mean streak and outright bullshit gets a little old.
As you wrote your last comment, there are ten posts on the front page of this website, all authored by me. Five of those ten deal directly or indirectly about Iraq. If you go back to the next ten posts, all written by me, six of the ten deal directly or indirectly with Iraq.
Now, take a moment, pull your head out of your ass, and explain to me again your thesis that the ‘less talk about Iraq the better.’
jobiuspublius
Mob Mentallity + Code Pink = Moms, babies, and Strollers run amok. ROFLMAO
SomeCallMeTim
What’s the distinction here between a rally and, say, a parade?
Mark-NC
Protests and rallys are a way that the people of this country can influence politicians after they get voted in, and in-between the sometimes LONG wait until we get to vote again.
For Bush – or at least his office – that vote is 3 1/2 years away.
Protest away and godspeed!!!
Stormy70
Anyone who would go protest in 100+ degree heat has issues. :)
Who cares? Let them protest, it’s what Americans do. Iraq has been talked about for 3 years, and it’s just a rehashing of all that has gone on before. Iraq is a long-term committment, and no matter how much squacking goes on in the states, it not going to change what is happening in Iraq.
John Cole
Since the last two times my car got towed was because of parades and the city did not mark the parking spaces with anything to note the parade, I am not too keen on parades, either.
John Cole
Did you just make up a word?
Stormy70
Yes, yes I did. It is the cross between squawking and quacking, Mr. Smarty Pants.
Just kidding. Me no type so well.
mac Buckets
You’re a better man than I am, Gungha Din! — Rudyard Kipling
Stormy70
John, you need an open Buffy/pop culture thread. Rome debuts tonight. It looks like it is full of decadent Empire goodness.
kl
You have a water cooler there at McDonald’s?
Odor.
mac Buckets
Yeah, the worst you have a parades is huge elephant dumps.
Tim F
Say what?
Tim F
We have another irony troll now. Hooray.
Joe Albanese
John Cole:
.
You’re right John, I should not have lumped you in with the pro-war crowd that would like nothing better than to keep the Iraq war off of the front pages. Perhaps I was not being fair to you because of your recent over-the-top denunciations of Cindy Sheehan. So, I apologize on that point, but I can’t help but believe that your objections to Cindy Sheehan et al have more to do with the fact that she has impacted public opinion (in a way contrary to your own) and not some generalized distaste for Americans exercising their right (and some would say, obligation) to protest.
We’ve all had to endure the attacks on Ms Sheehan. We’ve heard all about her divorce, her supposedly anti-Semitic views, her connections with David Duke etc. etc. But none of those things are relevant. She is not running for public office that I know of. She is symbolically asking the nation to explain why her son died. A pretty basic question that has caused some soul searching. That is a good thing. But one that the war supporters are quite terrified of.
While you may not be one of those that wish us to never to talk about Iraq and just to “trust” our leaders, there are plenty that hold that view –and that even questioning these policies are anti-American or are somehow “helping the enemy” Its no surprise that a GOP PR firm is organizing the anti-Sheehan tour. Its no wonder that we have a story about how protestors are “taunting our wounded troops” at Walter Reed. The Swift Boating of anti-war protestors is in full swing. And your post against protesting just happens to fit right in with that Roveian strategy. Coincidental, I am quite sure.
Narvy
John, I can’t tell if you’re advocating against large public displays of dissatisfaction in general, which I think is a Constitutional right, or just objecting to the fact that public protests attract aggressive idiots, which I think is a Law of Nature.
ppGaz
I appreciate the honest statement and found it quite interesting.
I suppose some would think it gratuitous and/or trite to point out that America has its roots in protest and riled up mobs. But there you are …. it does. To me the thing that makes America great is the fact that it legitimizes open protest, especially protest against the government.
Now, I see that you don’t shirk from criticizing the government in writing when you see the need, so obviously it isn’t protest that you abhor, it’s the mob in the street and a certain type of protest that you don’t like.
You know, a person doesn’t have to like broccoli to be a vegetarian, John. A dislike of noisy street protest is not a hatred for America. There are plenty of other vegetables besides broccoli, and plenty of ways for citizens to express themselves. So it’s fine with me if you don’t like demonstrations in the road. It would be finer with me if you just allowed as how you aren’t really objective about that subject, and just left it alone, too. But, that’s your call. However, knowing this now, I won’t jump to the conclusion that you are picking on Sheehan … or any particular street protester … in the future.
Stormy70
It is relevant when her views line up with the views of Neo-nazis. I would think some soul searching was in order if that happened. Sorry, I just hate nazis, I’m like Indy that way. Snakes son’t bother me much, though.
Narvy
And the award for Best Neologism of the Year goes to …
(much fussing with envelope as crowd holds breath)
“SQUACKING”!!!
RSA
Every weekend on the Santa Monica beach there’s a memorial set up for soldiers who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. A couple of thousand white crosses, with flowers by some. I don’t find it cynical; it’s moving. But to each his own. Some might find the operation names that are appearing on Arlington grave markers (if I remember the new story correctly) cynical, or at least politically motivated.
kl
Okay, okay, sorry, Burger King.
Whew!
jobiuspublius
“Iraq is a long-term committment, and no matter how much squacking goes on in the states, it not going to change what is happening in Iraq.”
==================================================
Ho hum, not my problem. Right? I so wish I could get some people enlisted and stop lossed for 10 consecutive life terms, without parole.
Sad, beyond belief. Tragic beyond tragedy.
Joe Albanese
Stormy :
I’m also nauseated by the suggestion that if someone says anything slighty against our policy regarding Israel you are all of sudden a neo-nazi. We also get this crap whenever someone says anything against the neocons and the charge of anti-Semitism is leveled. Pretty pathetic.
Biff
Protests give people a chance to vent their feelings. The alternative to the (mostly) nonviolent protests we have is violent riots, like they have in many third-world countries.
ppGaz
Fear not, brethren. Ms. Stormy has never yet been right about anything (around here anyway, I don’t know about the rest of her life) … and she is wrong about this too.
The exact opposite is true: What “goes on” in the states will control exactly what happens in Iraq to the greatest possible degree. Until the potatoheads completely seal themselves off from the people, the people still run this country, ultimately.
Stormy is not “the people.” She’s a vapid voice from somewhere out there in Texas where they elect people like George Bush, former alcoholic and lifelong chickenhawk ne’er do well son of a rich oil family, governor. Her opinion really does not matter. And, by her own admission, she drinks.
Otto Man
Come on. No one’s opinion should be dismissed just because the neanderthals have come down on that side.
Or are conservative complaints about affirmative action to be dismissed because the neo-Nazis hate that, too?
Stormy70
These guys made that jump, Sheehan should be ashamed.
Otto Man
But someone who vacations there is all right in the head?
Katherine
what do you make of the role of demonstrations in the Velvet Revolution, the Ukraine, and Lebanon? I agree it’s overused and ineffectively used, but there’s not only one counterexample.
Joe Albanese
Stormy your links work as good as your thinking.
ppGaz
That’s right, the lady who says we should “light up” the Palestinians should lecture on shame. The lady who uses her mother as an extra in her bullshit online soap opera but goes ballistic if somebody else mentions her, will now lecture us on shame.
Are we into the scotch a little early today, Stormy? You are pretty good at dishing out the dismissive insults, but can you take them? Not from what I’ve seen.
How many of your kids have you lost in the war, Stormy?
Stormy70
Only the finest single malt, baby. Bet you guys didn’t know this was the teetotaler board. You guys are no fun.
Stormy70
Here is the link. Too much strong drink, I guess.
kl
At least they’re prepared for the caliphate!
ppGaz
That’s right, taking a shit on some lady who lost her kid in Iraq, THAT’S fun, eh Storm?
Stormy70
I don’t have kids, pp. I’m Gen X anyway, so I don’t really care what some old grouchy hippy-type thinks anyway. I see you still have to personally insult everyone who disagrees with you. I guess the John’s troll designation fits.
Stormy70
I did not comment on her for quite a while since it seemed sad. Then she started in with the Moonbat ravings, and I’m not giving her a pass on her hatred and rantings. She does not get to say anything she wants, without answer. This is America, where freedom of speech goes both ways.
ppGaz
Can you make ONE POST without puffing yourself up? You are not “everyone who disagrees” with me, Stormy. You are just one poster here, and I think you deserve the greatest possible amount of scorn, ridicule and ciriticism for the crap you post and the things you say.
“Everyone who disagrees with me” is a helluva lot of people, Stormy, and most of them are far better than you.
ppGaz
Indeed it does, and that’s why I’m here talking to you.
Mark-NC
Stormy70
I don’t drink scotch, but I love a good martini. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t interfere with my political point of view.
But the previous point is about the Bush/alcoholic thing. It is an easy argument that nobody with Bush’s background could get elected to anything unless he ran as a Republican.
Stormy70
Maybe this attitude is why noone wants to answer your littany of QUESTIONS, SO MANY QUESTIONS! about the Iraq War.
Well, I’d love to stay but I have to pick up my middle class relatives (who enjoy their tax cut) in my oil guzzling SUV. They voted for Bush, too. Those evil little Texans! Hee hee.
I may have to take them for margaritas just to piss you teetotalers off.
kl
Not only is this woman allowed to use the Internet, but she’s allowed to drive as well? This is blasphemy.
djc
Hmm…
What about Teddy Kennedy?
ppGaz
I think I’ve asked one, repeatedly, and of exactly two people. John, and Defense Guy.
It’s exactly the same one Tim Russert essentially asked four generals this morning on Meet the Press. Read the transcript, you might learn something.
You know, Stormy, you can sit here and play the Valley Girl airhead all you like, the realities of the war and the world you live in are not going away. I’ll be right here to remind you of them as often as necessary.
Adam
So John, how do you feel about the massive pro-war rally and march planned by the DoD on Sept. 11 this year? You know, the one where you have to register to take part. The one that will culminate in a country music concert headlined by Clint “I Raq and Roll” Black. That one.
kl
As-Salaam-Alaikum!
Eve
Answer the question, Cole!
Boronx
The anti-war protests before the war served some important purposes. First of all, the media was marginalizing anti-war sentiment, and the protests were the primary confirmation that much of the country and most of the world thought as you did.
Second, it’s a big rude “I told you so” from the past to those who were stupid enough to support the war. In addition to the anti-war folks, there is a huge swath of generally conservative-on-foreign-policy folks across the nation who could see clearly that the war was a huge mistake. It was so obvious that you can safely ignore as weak the strategic thinking of anyone who supported the war.
John Cole
I am singularly unimpressed with the idea of the rally, and think it is silly. And I wouldn’t be caught dead registering for something like that. And, to be blunt, it seems to have crossed the line from patriotic display to a sort of creepy jingoism.
Jack Roy
Tienanmen Square; the Orange Revolution in Ukraine last year; Berlin Wall… not just Freedom Summer in America.
But I think that points to them being exceptions that prove the rule. There’s Matters of Great Importance, and then there’s ordinary politics.
What’s sadder, I think, is that the channels that we’d hope would be more concerned with ordinary politics, like the newspapers &c., don’t really seem to treat them seriously until there’s a protest rally to highlight.
jobiuspublius
Government run marches and rallies, how Orwellian, Fascist, Stalininst, Leninist, Maoist, …. Ooooh, a concert. Rummy’s into Huxley. Can we ride the tanks? WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
GO RUMMY GO RUMMY GO RUMMY …..
We really need to fire that geek.
Jim Caputo
You mean like when people say anti-war protestors are anti-America traitors who are aiding and abetting the enemy?
Jim Caputo
Nor are they true.
jobiuspublius
Noble cause, which noble cause?
Stay the course? What course?
A CLUSTER FUCK IS NOT A COURSE OR A CAUSE!!!! But, it is pork barrel of unprecedented proportions.
Fire Rummy! For that, democrats and repuglicans can coalesce. Dear Leader will shield his favorite uncle. He’s dumb like that. And that will be the end of the neo-cons.
chadwig
You could have saved a lot of time by just saying, “I hate democracy”. No need to beat around the bush.
Jim Caputo
Well they need 144,000 Jews to finish the game they’re playing.
I can’t wait for the damned rapture to get here. I want to see the look on faces of Dubya, Delay, and Dobson as they’re screaming at the sky, “What the fuck do you mean I’m not invited???”
Jim Caputo
It SEEMS to have crossed the line??? Was there a time when this thing didn’t stink of jingoism?
CaseyL
It crossed the line the minute that jackass ran over the crosses.
Camp Casey was a peaceful protest until Bush’s Army of Dimwits showed up.
Then there were gunshots; then there were fights; then there were people ripping down each others’ signs.
Funniest thing: one group of Bush’s Army of Dimwits went after another group. Apparently the second group’s Pro-Bush signs were too, um, subtle for the first group to understand.
jobiuspublius
“Funniest thing: one group of Bush’s Army of Dimwits went after another group.”
===========================================================
Hehe, just like in one of the Lord of the Rings movies.
John Cole
Gee, Casey. Who would have thunk it? 100 people could peacably run around claiming Bush is a terrorist, and it is only after someone who disagrees shows up that there is angst. And Bush supporters had nothing to do with gunshots- those were the locals pissed at something or another.
John Cole
I don’t know the whole origin of this specific event, as I didn’t pay attention, but I think it is possible to have parades and stuff that are merely patriotic celebrations. This just seemed weird, though.
DougJ
The trouble with protest/rallies is that all too often they involve people and beliefs that are outside the mainstream. I’m all for the right to protest, but it really should be done in a way that supports our society and its values rather than tearing them down. And, frankly, I wonder how much credibility left-wing protesters are every going to have when they present themselves like such a bunch of wackos (long hair, tattered clothes, ridiculous rhetoric and signs).
The bottom line is that we are at war and extreme anti-Bush dissent makes us look weak and give hope to the insurgents. We don’t need that.
David
What’s the quote?
“She would have liked to tell them that behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil and that the image of that evil was a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unison.” -Milan Kundera
goonie bird
The only ones the liberal news media pay attention to are the ones that consit of weirdos and nuts
Bob
You can oppose all sorts of things about Israel without being a neo-Nazi. Israel is a country which holds forth one faith above others. Sort of like what the Religious Right in this country wants, just different religions. Anyone who opposes making a segment of any society second-class citizens because of religious beliefs isn’t a Nazi. You can oppose Israel for occupying and annexing other people’s land. You can dislike the espionage they are engaging in against our country. Any of these criticisms can be directed at other countries which do the same things.
By the way, why neo-Nazis? It makes them sound not quite as dangerous as real Nazis.
You know, the Bush family has a family history of consorting with Nazis for monetary gain.
Stormy70
Ok, Bob. You hate the jews for being religious? Yet the Palestinian bombers blowing themselves up for Islam gets a pass? I wonder why anyone would think you have an anti-semitic bone in your body. It boggles the mind, it does.
Otto Man
Yeah, that’s sort of the point. If you’re in the mainstream, then by definition, you’re fine with how things are and you have no reason to protest.
Your comment is akin to saying the trouble with restaurants is that all too often they involve people who are hungry.
ppGaz
DougJIncorporated, disapproval of Bush and nonsupport of the war are now the majority opinions in this country.
The “extreme” position is yours, not ours.
These opinions don’t make us look weak. They make us look like a country that actually has a viable democracy.
Kimmitt
No, but they are excellent networking events and serve to lift the spirits of those working on an issue. If a rally is big enough, it does get covered on the news, which sends the statement that at least some people care about a given issue. So there’s a lot of good work that’s not precisely persuasion that’s going on.
Beej
Okay, Cindy Sheehan has some questions. And she absolutely has a perfect right to ask them (she doesn’t necessarily have a right to have them answered per her specifications, but that’s another issue). Well, I have a few questions too, or maybe it’s only one question. For all of those who want to get out of Iraq now, here’s the question: Then what? Answers anyone?
Kimmitt
Iraq has a civil war. Interestingly, that’s also what happens if we don’t pull out.
Beej
A civil war? Well I guess it is, sort of. But, for the moment at least, it seems to be more the Sunni supporters of Saddam’s status quo and the radical Islamists versus the U.S. and everyone else. A true civil war would see Kurds attacking Shi’ites, Shi’ites attacking Sunnis, Sunnis attacking Kurds and Shi’ites, and so on and son on, wouldn’t it? Just because it’s difficult now, doesn’t mean it can’t get worse.
Beej
But even that would only be the beginning, wouldn’t it? After we have exited Iraq (or “cut and run” as the radical Islamists will surely see it)how do we convince anyone in the Middle East (or elsewhere, for that matter) that the U.S. has any credibility at all as a force for freedom and democracy in the world? Al Quaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and others are in this battle with the West for the long haul. Are we?
Kimmitt
Um, we lost that when we started torturing detainees and taking pictures to pass around as souveneirs. Alternatively, we lost it when we reelected a moronic thug. Either way, it’s gone for a while and all the grieving American moms our current policy can generate won’t bring it back.
kl
Um, your talking points got a little repetitive after the first thousand times. Um, and if you want to whine more effectively, try starting things off with an “Actually” instead of “Um” every now and then. You know, just to mix things up. Other than that, I’m with ya 110%!!
Tim F
Another substantive post by kl. We all stand in awe of your debatitive prowess good buddy.
jobiuspublius
John Bolton, credibility, ROFLMAO
ET
I must hate America too.
Davebo
“You know, Joe, I can tolerate the outright stupidity from you. I really can. But your snide mean streak and outright bullshit gets a little old.”
Hilarious!
Oh.. you weren’t joking?
Joe Albanese
Back on point for a minute. Can we all stipulate that SOME protests can be destructive, morally reprehensible and outright idiotic while others can demonstrate the very essence of what being an American citizen is all about? My frame of reference always goes back to the massive civil rights “protests” marches that occured in the 60’s and changed a nation for the better.
A few threads ago, John highlighted a protest he though was “inappropriate” and that was the protesters at Walter Reed hosptial. Good people on both side of the issue can argue that one back and forth but can ANYONE think this is ok?
Wonder if CBN will be doing a story on them?
Defense Guy
The Rev. Phelps has a flock of like 5 people, all family. He most certainly does not speak for the majority of christians, and without doubt does not speak for G-d. He should be smited, but it is his right as an American to be an ass.
Joe Albanese
Defense Guy said:
I couldn’t agree with you more. My point is that any blanket condemnation of a “tactic”, simply because one can find instances where that tactic is used offensively, is a weak argument as there are as many instances where the very same methods were used to further a most moral and noble cause.
kl
(I think he’s trying to be sarcastic, folks.) You’re certainly welcome, ol’ chum!
capelza
Well, the big tent circus has been fully erected in Crawford. Apparantly the “Protest Warriors” carried a sign or several saying “Say No to War — Unless a Democrat is President.”
Their fellow pro-Bush folks took offense at these signs and chased them off in a rather testy way…
Otto Man
Why do you hate America?™
DougJ
I can’t wait for the damned rapture to get here. I want to see the look on faces of Dubya, Delay, and Dobson as they’re screaming at the sky, “What the fuck do you mean I’m not invited???”
circlethewagons
…not to mention all the annoying requisite “protest-wear” (kaffiyas, poltical t-shirts, buttons, etc.), not to mention the self-righteous indignation that accompanies said annoying protest-wear.
circlethewagons
not to mention my use of “not to mention” twice in a row…argh, its naptime for me.