ED Kain has posted a bit more about SWAT teams. Here’s an interesting statistic from a Baltimore Sun report he highlighted:
The statistics compiled on police raids give a broad picture of how the tactic is used in Maryland. Of the 806 raids conducted in the six-month period, more than 94 percent stemmed from search or arrest warrants. Most of the others came as the result of a barricade situation.
As Radley Balko notes, Maryland is the first state in the nation to require that cities report how their SWAT teams are used. In one county, over half of the SWAT deployments were for misdemeanors and non-serious felonies.
In my post yesterday, I wondered why the Rochester SWAT team had fired only one shot in 30 years. I found this old story that indicates a couple of reasons. First, Rochester’s team is made up of on-call members of the police force — it’s not a standing unit. It was recently renamed the “Emergency Task Force”. Since “emergency” being the opposite of “routine”, I assume the point is that the group is to be used for extraordinary situations, not serving misdemeanor warrants.
A lot of the paramilitary hardware used by SWAT teams was purchased with post-9/11 Homeland Security grants. There’s no reason the federal government couldn’t impose national standards for equipping, usage and reporting on police departments who get money for their SWAT teams.
13th Generation
This is where Libertarians get it right.
MattMinus
You have no right to look at statistics until you’ve invaded someone’s home and “double tapped” an innocent person in the face or something.
arguingwithsignposts
@MattMinus – I saw what you did there. inb4 m_c/hgw/ga – why isn’t LoOG in teh “mock” column. EDK give you a glibertarian reach around, mistermix?
gnomedad
When the Feds are giving away hammers, everything looks like a nail.
John X.
“This is where Libertarians get it right.”
Libertarians would be fully against federal standards. They’d see it as an imposition on local autonomy.
Which is a lot of the problem with libertarians. Even when they identify a problem, they’re ideology will reject the solutions that will actually work.
13th Generation
@John X
I would tend to agree with you, but at least there’s some element on the right who haven’t given up on the concept of civil liberties entirely. Personally I think the erosion of CL in this country is one of the things we have to fear the most.
4tehlulz
@arguingwithsignposts – Y u do this? The chance that this will ever see 300 replies is gone.
SiubhanDuinne
Oh, well done, AWS!
Cudlips 4 evah!
Odie Hugh Manatee
Excellent suggestion. The Fed likes to tie strings to stuff they pass out to the states and this shouldn’t be any different. If the Fed is going to arm them then the Fed should have an accounting of how that stuff is being used/deployed.
Using SWAT to go after misdemeanors is a sick joke and an abuse of the citizens of that area. It’s little more than flexing might that shouldn’t be flexed in that direction. I know that the cops have a tough job but shooting up the populace shouldn’t be the solution.
TK-421
I believe there are standards, in most instances. My understanding is police departments receive grants for gear provided the gear is used in the War on Drugs. So a small police department might take freebie SWAT gear, but then they’re basically restricted to using said SWAT gear on drug arrests & raids. This is how an armored vehicle ends up enforcing a search warrant.
The feds have standards, they’re just not very good IMO.
Cassidy
I think you’re missing context. Who were those misdemeanor(s) served on? Were they violent criminals or well armed Sovereigns? But passing judgement on those macho deranged combat vets is so much easier I guess.
mistermix
@ John X.: I’ll stick up for the libertarians just to say that a consistent libertarian would do away with the whole grant system, so the question of federal standards for grants wouldn’t arise.
But how a libertarian would want consistent standards for SWAT teams to happen is still a good question.
D. Mason
Bullshit. Unless by tough you mean shucks it sure is hard harassing all those brown people, pot smokers, out of towners begging for tickets and donut shop attendants who fail to make fresh coffee. It’s more dangerous to be a pizza driver than to be a cop so why isn’t Domino’s getting grants for APC’s? Heartburn doesn’t terrorize enough people, that’s why.
Mattminus
@Cassidy
http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/17/detroit-girl-7-killed-in-swat
I’m pretty sure the 7 year old the cops burned to death was the national leader of the latin kings.
http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/05/lima-ohio-swat-officer-acquitted-in-the-killing-of-tarika-wilson/
Lots of criminals use guns that look just like babies these days, amirite?
http://www.theagitator.com/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid/
This grandfather was clearly the leader of the Hutaree.
BigHank53
Asset forfeiture laws are to blame as well. If you get a $100,000 windfall from a drug bust, you have to spend it all on…police equipment. So why not buy the $4000 night vision goggles and the $3500 Heckler & Koch MP5 and the super-cool black tactical ninja suit?
Citizen_X
I’m sure “libertarians” would be very consistent. If they’re used against
white peoplewell armed Sovereigns, they’re agin it. If used againstminoritiesviolent criminals [thanks Cassidy!], well, that’s what gubmint’s for.Cassidy
@ Matt…There are plenty of instances out there of cops not doing the right thing. But, in the context of the many police officers out there doing what’s right, that is a small percentage. Unfortunately, people like D. Mason who generalize and paint all cops as bad because of one or two anecdotal experiences in their lifetime.
That’s what got me so pissed yesterday. Most of these men and women are good people trying to do a job that isn’t easy. And most of you have no idea of the standards of joining a SWAT. In this post, it’s mentioned that the SWAT team is a “call up” action from the regular force. Most SWAT’s are like that. These guys don’t sit around, inject steroids and pump iron all day; most of them are doing a regular patrol shift. I’ve read (anecdotal) accounts of guys coming back from a deployment and the SWAT Commander putting them on the bench for a year or more until they’ve gotten back to normal. That’s what is pissing me off. The system needs work, I get that, but this inane and ignorant image that some of you (collectively) have of LEO’s is ridiculous.
Secondly, yes, bad things happen and I’m all about reviews and investigations and making shit right, but if I were serving a warrant, even a misdemeanor, on a guy I knew was a Sovereign….I’m bringing SWAT. So once again, there is some context from those numbers that are missing.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
MattMinus: The rich, warm feeling of satisfaction from exercising your “unrestrained police power” is something you can’t understand and have no right to judge until you’ve actually put a few hollowpoints into a handcuffed black man’s spinal column.
Cassidy
Perfect example. You all are such insulated, ignorant people.
D. Mason
You know, I hear this all the time… isn’t easy compared to what? Lots of people work hard but if they fuck up their work egregiously they get fired, not cops, they get medals. So it surely isn’t hard from the perspective of job security. They can literally kill kids in a workplace fuckup and keep their jobs, as an upthread link shows.
I already pointed out how it’s a far cry from as dangerous as cops pretend, there are more dangerous entry level positions that teenagers do. Looks pretty easy from that angle too.
A Cops job can be as physically demanding, or not, as the cop in question desires. If he want’s to ride the booth at the local coffee shop the thin blue line sure as fuck isn’t going to stop him. So once again, doesn’t meet a very high threshold for “not easy” in my eyes.
So let’s sum it up– not especially dangerous, physical difficulty is tied to ambition, almost impossible to get fired. Seems like hell on earth, now I know why they get to kill rowdy teens with impunity. All that hard work has to have some perks amirite?
Cassidy
FTFY
Mattminus
@Cassidy –
You really illustrate the problem every time you answer. Cops have such a sense of privilege and entitlement that they think it’s fair to respond to any perceived, marginal risk by indiscriminately using deadly force without even verifying who they’re using it against.
With complete disregard for any actual evidence they convince themselves that they have the most dangerous job in the world and everyone is out to get them. Now that they’re all fraidey-scared, they’re justified in lobbing incendiary bombs at babies.
celticdragonchick
Who hate the fact that police can shoot a restrained and prone black man in the back and get less jail time then I would for a felony DUI. Or that a cop can seriously assault a bicyclist in NYC, lie about it and try to have him prosecuted only to find that he has exposed as a liar on YouTube…and when convicted on felony tampering with police records, gets sentenced to …nothing at all.
We insufferable and smug types really fucking hate how police tactical units are used to smash into homes of people possibly suspected of something (assuming they haven’t moved and somebody else is renting there like what happened with some Vietnamese students in California), shoot anybody confused enough to think this is a criminal home invasion, call it a “good shoot” and move on without once having the goddamned human decency to question whether they should have been there and shot that guy to begin with.
That is why people like you get compared to Nazis.
Not my fault. Just following orders. Not my job to see if the warrant is valid or the address is correct. Not my fault. Not my job. Just doing my job.
Rule number one is “all cops go home at night”.
Dumb ass civilians are on their own, especially 69 year olds with cataracts.
Fuck you, cassidy. With a rusty chainsaw.
themann1086
Cassidy,
Living in the city of Frank “I’ll make Attila look like a fag” Rizzo makes your objections hilariously pathetic.
Larv
Cassidy,
I tend to agree that most cops, even those serving on SWAT teams, are fairly normal, sometimes even noble, people. Like most societal problems, the problems with SWAT are structural and institutional rather than personal. The mere existence of SWAT teams means that police departments are going to go looking for reasons to use them. The department wants to show that they’re getting good value for the investment and get good PR, and the officers involved want to make use of the extra training they’ve worked on. This results in things like the use of SWAT to serve misdemeanor warrants. I have to disagree with you that this is ever appropriate. The increased risk involved simply isn’t worth it.
You say you’d want a SWAT team if you had to serve a warrant on a Sovereign citizen. But what’s more likely to escalate the situation, two patrol cops showing up on his doorstep, or a bunch of heavily armed, black-clad paramilitary types surrounding his house. The latter situation is exactly the thing the Sovereigns fear and expect and have been stockpiling guns and ammo against. The low-key approach might occasionally result in a cop being hurt or even killed, but so will the SWAT approach, as well as significantly increasing the likelihood of bystanders, housemates, or children of the target being hurt or killed (as well as the target himself). I don’t think that’s a good tradeoff – the cops are paid and trained to take those risks.
I don’t have a problem with SWAT teams, but I do have a problem with the extraordinary mission creep we’ve seen over the last 20-30 years. SWAT should be used when there’s a clear danger, not in any situation the police think might plausibly be dangerous, which is what we see now. I mean, can you really justify using a SWAT team on the Cheye Calvo raid?
D. Mason
@cassidy #21 got nothing eh? Thought so.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
It takes a man of rare moral courage – a man who no one would have the right to judge or condemn, or even speak harshly of – to unload a full magazine of .40 caliber frangible rounds into the ass end of a terrified black lab that is running away from the heroes in black BDUs, bulletproof vests, and Bradley Fighting Vehicles – complete with a .50 caliber machine gun – that keep us safe from marijuana smokers.
Cassidy
@ Celtic… et al….You’re also using singular incidents to indict all LEO’s. You’re wrong.
@ Larv….I get what you’re saying. Personally, I don’t think risking the lives of a couple of LEO’s is worth that. And I agree, there is institutional breakdown due to the WOD’s, etc. but that doesn’t mean the system is bad. Like any system it needs to be fixed. Treating all cops as thugs with steroid abuse problems and PTSD is the wrong answer, though.
Larv
Also, Cassidy, you really might want to consider that the reason so many people have negative opinions of the police just might have something to do with their experience of the police, rather than being products of their fevered imaginations. Just a thought. I mean, I accept that being a cop is a difficult and occasionally scary job. But there are also a significant number of asshole, respect-mah-authoritah cops out there. And some of them undoubtedly make it onto SWAT teams, which is unnerving for us civilians.
Cassidy
@ D. Mason…whatever. You’re full of shit. Not gonna get into a lengthy argument with someone ignorant and close minded. But keep commenting on blogs and doing your part to expose injustice.
@ Larv…there are assholes everywhere. It’s inevitable. But once again, to indict a whole community over anecdotal experience is ignorant. Would I be wrong to state that I hate all Iraqi’s because a small minority killed my friends? You’re damn straight I would be.
D. Mason
Some might even say it takes an uber-man…
celticdragonchick
@ Larv
I disagree. The institutional and the personal cannot be separated. If the institutional mores tend to exaggerate violence and denigrate outsiders (especially the persons the institution comes most into contact with) the individuals tend to adopt those values.
I saw it in the Army for both good and poor results, and my father described it in law enforcement. He specifically was contemptuous of a widespread attitude among his coworkers that prisoners can be assaulted and smacked around or even seriously harmed with impunity.
Poopyman
I live in a Maryland county — not Prince Georges — and a friend of mine is on the SWAT team, which is not his full-time job. None of the guys here are, and we have some real targets for terrorism. Hell, every county in a broad swath between DC and Baltimore has multiple targets.
But the point I want to make is that how the teams are constituted and operated varies wildly from county to county. There are clearly jurisdictions such as Rochester and here who know how to minimize their usage, and then there are places like PG, who do not.
I’d like to see state or national guidelines that clearly circumscribe the SWAT powers, but every time someone like Richard Poplawski pops up it makes it that much harder to politically justify it.
Paul in KY
Too many cops are weenies. If you can’t take the pressure of having to make 100% sure that the person has a gun instead of a cell phone, then you are in the wrong line of work.
I have no problem with cops shooting people with guns. If you are waving a gun at a cop, then a bullet is what you need. It’s the shooting of people who are armed with a camera, cell phone, stick, etc. that rile me up.
D. Mason
@cassidy I’m not making an effort to expose injustice, only your ignorance. Since you’ve taken that over so fervently, and clearly have nothing to say, I’ll run along to work now though. BTW, at my shitty job I know if I kill any kids through carelessness or otherwise, I’ll be fired. Wish I were a cop, I don’t have the stomach for such callous work though.
Sorry for the comma fest.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
It takes a man amongst men – a moral paragon, who straddles the Earth and whose voice is like unto the thunder from the skies – a man who is to normal men what a God is to a mere ant – to empty an MP5 into an 89-year old grandmother sitting in her rocking chair while watching television. How dare we judge. How dare we. May as well curse the sun for being too hot, or the moon for rising every night.
Larv
@Cassidy
Are Afghans wrong to indict all American forces because we have a nasty habit of bombing shit from the air and causing unintended civilian casualties because we want to reduce the risk to troops on the ground? Maybe, but I can’t say I’d feel differently in their shoes. That’s the problem I see many commenters have with SWAT teams. Police use them to reduce the risk to LEOs, but this increases the risk for the rest of us. Good for you, bad for us.
jh
Cassidy,
The police are a “community” of people who volunteer to protect and serve the public and who swear an oat to do so.
Nobody is drafted into the police.
It is a “community” of comprised of self-selecting individuals who, due to the nature of their work, are granted power over life and death with the full force of the state behind them.
Because of their unique status, people really are less inclined to be sympathetic when they screw up and harm (and often times kill) innocent people with, as statitics show, enough regularity to be a serious problem to the communities they serve.
Remember this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39th_District_corruption_scandal
Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it’s enemy action.
Not saying all cops are bad, but even if only 5-10 percent of the police are prone to abuse of power, given the sheer number of police in this country, that presents a very real, mortal threat to everyone in the community they serve.
celticdragonchick
Violent home invasions from SWAT teams to serve misdemeanor warrants are happening every fucking day, Cassidy.
This isn’t an isolated incident. This is everyday reality! Every day, normal people who may or may not even be the people that are wanted for whatever non violent nonsense are being required BY YOU to make immediate life and death decisions because YOU just came into their home with an MP-5 submachinegun and pointed it at them and their kids. Small wonder when you bring unexpected violence into the home of a free person not used to guys in camoflage and black tactical gear screaming at them, they might react violently.
Of course, then, you get to have your righteous kill. The 69 year old man with cataracts had a gun. The woman was holding something suspicious. You brought violence to them, and then you can use that to justify what happens to them afterwards. Beautiful.
YOU chose to be there, Cassidy, however metaphorically. YOU brought that to them. YOU represent the end of whatever process, right, wrong or utterly fucked up beyond repair, decided to bring the full coercive weight of the state upon somebody in bed or watching TV.
This wouldn’t be an issue if we were looking for the Toybox Killer or if an armed man were holding his wife hostage.
That isn’t how SWAT is being used, most of the time.
Nope. We get the usual “tip” from an informant that results in two dead dogs, possibly a dead wife or kid and the remains of a joint that was smoked and left in a trashcan.(yes, this has been documented ad nauseum by Balko at The Agitator)
But remember rule number one!
All cops go home at night!
The rest of us can take our incoming 9mm parabellum rounds and suck on it.
Stefan
Most of these men and women are good people trying to do a job that isn’t easy.
So what? Fishermen, mechanics, farmers, ranchers, migrant laborers, pilots, loggers, coal miners, construction workers, roofers, electricians, slaughterhouse workers, merchant mariners, motel maids, etc. are also all good people trying to do a job that isn’t easy.
But if they fuck up, they get fired. If they kill someone on the job because of carelessness or negligence or recklesness, they get punished.
Stefan
Would I be wrong to state that I hate all Iraqi’s because a small minority killed my friends? You’re damn straight I would be.
Umm, you realize you attacked them, right? That they were peacefully sitting at home in their own country until you and your friends up and invaded them? That you were the bad guys in that scenario?
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
Ah, but for Cassidy, the cops are the good guys, all the time, every time.
I think Al Jazeera’s definition of accident applies.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
Heroes shoot old deaf guys in the back while they’re whittling a piece of wood. How dare we judge them.
celticdragonchick
@stefan
Read here what happened to officer Bullock who shot and killed an unarmed opt”:
There is no other job in civilian America where you could get away with that.
Those cherry picked anecdotes just keep building up, Cassidy.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
From my own collection: Three years ago, infallible police officers, men of steel with an unbending moral code and the courage of lions, cuff and stuff a 75-year old assault victim with head injuries, and let him lie in the car for four hours, when the women burglarizing the home next to him claim that he “hit them first”.
The police finally let the victim go after getting a phone call from his lawyer, informing them that they will be defendants in a newly filed lawsuit, and let the burglars go, making them leave their purloined goods in a pile in the driveway for the 82-year old resident to clean up when he arrived home.
I got the victim’s wife, took them both to the hospital, came back, and got everything put away for the old guy, in case you were wondering. They were my neighbors. I witnessed the entire altercation. No testimony was taken from me. The old guy was a WWII combat vet. He died last year. The slightly younger assault victim was a retired journalist. I volunteered to be the clean-up crew because I’m much younger than them, and it was the right thing to do. The cops, on the other hand, showed their mettle and decency by refusing to call an ambulance for the assault victim.
I expect to be testifying in the civil case. I will sit in judgment, if you will, on the actions of the police that were there that day.
More profiles in police courage.
Larv
@celticdragonchick
Sure, my point is just that it isn’t necessary for the police to attract gun-happy psychopaths for their SWAT teams. Take a normal person and put them on a SWAT team, and there’s still a too-high chance they’ll shoot somebody/something they shouldn’t if they’re put into those situations often enough and if the departmental culture emphasizes risk reduction (to LEOs) over everything else.
Stefan
FAIRFAX COUNTY police officer Deval V. Bullock is a good cop who made one disastrous mistake: Bumped by his own car door, he accidentally fired his weapon and killed an unarmed, nonviolent, non-threatening suspect during a routine arrest in January. The shooting of Salvatore J. Culosi, an optometrist under investigation for being a sports bookmaker, was unintentional. But it was also negligent; under the circumstances, Mr. Bullock should not have had his finger on the trigger, nor even aimed his weapon at Mr. Culosi. Now the Fairfax police department is recommending a slap on the wrist for Mr. Bullock—three weeks without pay and his removal from the police SWAT team. The punishment is lenient, to say the least, but even so it is too much for the police union.
Assume I, a non-cop, get into a confrontation with another drive after a car accident. Assume that during that confrontation, I take out a gun and aim it at the other driver, with the weapon off safety and my finger on the trigger, even though that other drive is no threat to me. Assume that at a certain point I get startled and fire my weapon, shooting and killing the other driver.
Now let’s assume what would happen to me? Would I get off with being fined three weeks pay and no jail time?
Also, look at the unspoken assumption in that piece above, that he made “one disastrous mistake”. Was taking out his weapon and aiming it at Mr. Culosi also “a mistke”? That seems to have rather been a pretty conscious decision. If your “mistake” flows from an easily foreseeable set of prior conscious bad decisions, then it’s not really a mistake at all, it’s just one of the probabilities working itself out to its conclusion.
Cassidy
If you can show that this is the majority, then go for it. Other than that you’re just being dishonest.
Mattminus
Because as long as less than 50% of these cases end up with the cops shooting someone in the face, then it’s not really a problem.
Cassidy
Hey, you all want to indict a whole community for some people being wrong, then you need to show your work and prove it’s the whole community. Until then, you’re no different than a Teatard purity troll. Right now, you all have so much in common with the Bachman groupies that it’s sickening.
Mattminus
@Cassidy – So do you cops have to prove that every guy with a small bag of pot WILL come out shooting, and thus justifies the use of a SWAT team? Because if not, you’re no different than a teatard or something.
Cassidy
Nice deflection, but I can wait. My guess is that you can’t support your condemnation beyond a small percentage and anecdotal situations, but you’ll still refuse to admit you’re wrong. Just like a teatard and climate change and intelligent design and economics and…
I stated in the other thread, I’m not a cop. I’m transitioning to be one, but still active duty.
jh
Cassidy,
We know it’s not the majority of LEOs.
That’s not the point.
Any number of wrongful deaths, injuries, arrests and other similar incidents of harm against the innocent greater than ZERO are too high.
That this number is not yet beginning to trend towards zero means that there is a problem that needs to be addressed, either by the FEds or – and this is highly unlikely for various reasons – the LEO community itself.
Did you read my link? When an officer who cooperates with an investigation of a cadre of completely corrupt colleagues is ostracized, called a “rat” and in some cases is threatened with violence, there is a problem with the culture of the community of law enforcement officers.
A community, which I must remind you again, is comprised ENTIRELY OF FRIGGIN’ VOLUNTEERS.
In short, incidents of excessive force, misuse of force, overuse of paramilitary SWAT units, corruption etc. ad nasueum, are too high to be acceptable to larger society and saying “It’s a tough job” and “we aren’t all bad” isn’t even close to being enough.
If that is too much for you to hear, perhaps you should consider a different line of work.
Cassidy
I’ve never said anything different. The system needs work. It needs better oversight. It needs the WOD’s to end. I’ve never said otherwise. But once again, to indict a whole community for a very small minority of bad people is simply wrong. Should I despise all teachers because a few of them fucked students and were pedophiles? How about union workers? Some of them are mafia or pedophiles are drunk drivers, etc. So are they all horrible people? No of course not, but it’s pretty telling that the “progressive” community here is willing to condemn all cops, but other groups with the same amount of shitbags (I’m guessing there) get a pass. It’s clear that there is no “moral purity” here but a simple disdain for LE. You’ve got your pet groups that get a pass, but other’s don’t. So how does it feel to be on the same moral level as Republicans? David Vitter would love you all.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
Mattminus: Until you’ve gone through that door and then shot up and killed a room full of chair-bound grandparents, terrified dogs and innocent families, and then falsified the report to clear you and all the rest of the guys on your squad, you have no right to judge. You haven’t earned that right.
celticdragonchick
@Cassidy
The fact that the officer’s union (and I say this even as a pro union person ) went to bat to protect and defend his actions speaks for itself. I dare say that the majority of LE officers in his jurisdiction seemed to have been okay with little or no punishment for the unprovoked and unjustified killing of an unarmed man in his driveway.
It ended up costing taxpayers 2,000,000 to settle the lawsuit, btw.
Cassidy
For one, that’s speculation. You have no evidence to back that up; only your prejudices.
Two, how many is that out of the whole LE community? Show me a majority.
Douglas
Mattminus/Whiskey: This simple disdain of people telling others to shut up because of that’s why is shocking. How does it feel to be on the same mortal level as laughing helicopters?
Douglas
Yeah, please, show us that this is the majority “here”.
For for it. Do your best/worst/dishonest.
Cassidy
It’s more about disgust with blatant dishonest and hypocritical purity trolls. The problem is that insecure people project the inadequacies and dishonesty of themselves on others. Fact is, you may not have the intestinal fortitude to do what is right all the time, but many others do. And yes, that makes you less than them.
Cassidy
You first. Show your work. When you (collectively) decide to stop deflecting and creating strawmen, then I’ll consider it.
celticdragonchick
I won’t go so far as to say we have seen that exact scenario, although there have been one or two examples that came pretty close. Lot’s of fun examples here.
BTW…I have met truly helpful, humane and competent police officers who were great assets to the community and wonderful to know. I have met others who, well, not so much. My spouse was sexually harassed by a sheriffs deputy In Glynn County, GA and to this day refuses to donate any money to police charities. What Cassidy seems unable to understand is that we have no idea if we are going to meet Officer Friendly or Officer Fuckyouup at any moment, and that can have serious and even fatal consequences for us.
Cassidy
I understand that perfectly. I’ve dealt with bad cops to. What you’re not understanding is that condemning a whole community based on the actions of a small minority is wrong. The disdain shown here for what is simply a group of hard working people doing a difficult job is disgusting. It’s teatard level disgusting.
celticdragonchick
Nothing speculative about the fact that his union resisted even a three week suspension without pay and dismissal from the SWAT team over killing a man. It happened, and it is recorded fact. I linked to it.
The union represents the officers and is not going to take stands that the constituents do not approve of. There is nothing to suggest that numerous officers called the union to complain about it, and there is no record of officers talking to any media outlet to express outrage or disapproval. Ergo, silence in this case can lead to one conclusion.
If anybody thought it was fucked up, they didn’t feel strongly enough to say anything, and that raises questions still.
Cassidy
You’re parsing to cover your bullshit. You stated that:
And you have nothing more than speculation and prejudice. Your whole post is nothing but assumption. Something about “you” and “umption”….
Douglas
Nice try.
You know you can’t back it up – your main argument is “we (Ballion Juice commentariat) hate LEO”, but using the requirements you introduced “For group x to be called y, you have to show that >50% of the members are y”, the chance of that being true is pretty close to zero – how would you even prove that? Yeah, you couldn’t really.
Anyway, are the helicopters still laughing?
Douglas
Nice try.
You know you can’t back it up – your main argument is “we (Balloon Juice commentariat) hate LEO”, but using the requirements you introduced “For group x to be called y, you have to show that >50% of the members are y”, the chance of that being true is pretty close to zero – how would you even prove that? Yeah, you couldn’t really.
Anyway, are the helicopters still laughing?
…is Ballion Juice on teh spamfilter list or anything?
Douglas
Nice try.
You know you can’t back it up – your main argument is “we (Balloon Juice commentariat) hate LEO”, but using the requirements you introduced “For group x to be called y, you have to show that >50% of the members are y”, the chance of that being true is pretty close to zero – how would you even prove that? Yeah, you couldn’t really.
Anyway, are the helicopters still laughing?
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
Until you’ve put fifteen rounds through an unarmed guy who was on his way to his wedding, stopped, reloaded, and emptied your magazine into his lifeless body again, you have no right to even question the actions of any law enforcement personnel whatsoever.
Cassidy
Try it for your own argument. I asked first.
celticdragonchick
It reflects the disdain we feel we are are shown by many of those same people. Sorry, but there it is. People in a highly individualistic society like we have here DO NOT readily buckle down and bow to authority, no matter how shiny the badge is.
You saw that disconnect with the case in Boston when a famous African America prof came home from a trip to China and was accosted by officers in his home who had been called about “a black man breaking into a house”.
Even after ascertaining that the call was bullshit and the guy was who he said he was, they still felt the need to arrest him for “contempt of cop” since he was openly indignant at being fucked with by police in his own living room along with running a fever and being jet lagged.
This is just a taste of the contempt we feel we are shown by people in LE. You can come into our homes, fuck with us and arrest us even if you know the charge will be tossed because you have a badge that says you can do almost anything to us that you want to.
My dad was going jogging one evening, as he usually does. An idiot neighbor phoned in a report that a man was seen running away from our home. The officer showed up after my dad had returned and was getting ready to shower. My dad opened the door, spoke to the officer for a second and went to get his badge. The officer, without invitation, entered our home and went into the living room as my dad returned with his LE badge and id. My dad simply said “I hope your other calls are this easy”, and waited for the guy to leave. I could tell later my dad was pissed as hell, and I was thinking “That would have been one hell of a bad time to come out to clean my rifle. I would be dead and I wouldn’t have the first clue even why”.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
Hey, and here’s a good one from my former hometown. Meet Officer Rapist.
Sure takes his duties seriously! I want a guy just like this on the front lines of justice, defending me and mine from the forces of evil run amuck in the world!
I’ll say this for him; so far as we know, he didn’t shoot any unarmed civilians. This is a real improvement for San Diego cops, who routinely do so, safe in the knowledge that their current district attorney has never once prosecuted a use of force case against any cop regardless of the circumstances. She’s running for mayor next year.
Cassidy
And of course that means all cops are bad.
celticdragonchick
I stated a fact:
Officer Bullock wrongfully killed a man with an “accidental discharge” and the union resisted even a token punishment of three weeks suspension and dismissal from the SWAT team.
I inferred from that other LE officers supported this position and by extension, approval of officer Bullock, since the actions were taken in their name and on their behalf and no evidence has been produced in the public record to suggest otherwise.
You have produced nothing in return.
Cassidy
You assumed. Making an inference requires some sort of evidence.
celticdragonchick
Silence equals tacit approval in this instance, methinks.
celticdragonchick
Also, the evidence is already there in the public record. I am interpreting it.
celticdragonchick
I’m out for now. BBL.
Cassidy
Tell that to
dumbassDouglas.What evidence supports your assumption that all the LEO’s supported that decision? Your assumptions about the union? That’s not evidence. That’s speculation and assumption. You are wrong.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
Putting 44 rounds into an unarmed guy reaching for his wallet is a mistake that anyone could make. You have no right to judge until you’ve had a guy reaching for his wallet in your sights, and feel the repetitive concussive kick of the Glock in your hands as you squeeze round after round into the black man’s feet because he’s already dead and lying in a river of his own blood on the stoop of his apartment building.
You can never fire enough bullets, but try getting a chickenshit civilian to understand that. They’ll never know the truth. They’re not even capable of understanding that mistakes can be made, and that even if you make the same mistake over and over and over again, no consequences should ever ensue, because YOU ARE THE LAW, and being the law, except in the eyes of some dope-smoking peacenik commie retards, means that you’re never accountable to anyone.
The citizens of America are grateful. And if a few of them die in the crossfire, they’d no doubt thank the cops who worked so hard and tirelessly to make sure they got the bad guy, even at the cost of their own lives. I myself would be grateful to take a bullet in the aorta, and to slowly bleed out, choking and drowning on my own blood, on the sidewalk within view of my own home, just to know that the war on crime was being fought the right way: with no-knock warrants, no judicial review, and military weaponry.
Cassidy
Your schtick is old and worn out. Uncle Clarence has better material.
Comrade Scrutinizer
Cassidy–
Good job! Your work here is in the best tradition of rethugs, teatards, and faux news! I see what you’re doing: you take a postion, defend it initially by putting it in terms moralistic/patriotic/paternalistic, and then you challenge anyone who disagrees with you first in terms of “How dare you criticize unless you’ve been there!” As time goes by you will concede that, well, not everyone you’re defending is good; after all, there are bad apples in every barrel, right? Then you insist that anyone arguing with you prove that the “bad apples” must be > 50% of all apples. Then you claim victory and refuse to engage at all.
You’re now qualified to jump on board the TP Express, or become a “political strategist” on the talking head program of your choice.
Stefan
Cassidy: I’ve never said anything different. The system needs work. It needs better oversight. It needs the WOD’s to end. I’ve never said otherwise.
Uh, yeah you have. For example yesterday, at 2:50 PM, when in a response to criticism you wrote:
I happen to be one of those “deranged combat vets” transitioning to LE after the military. And no, you don’t get to judge. A crime is one thing and a strawman. But to judge a public servant who is doing their best to do their job, piss off. This isn’t fucking McDonalds. Your opinion isn’t worth shit. The most you’ve seen is movies and video games, so fuck off. Criticize the system, but you have not earned the right to criticize the people. Those that are shits and commit crimes are a very small percentage. So fuck off.
You can hardly claim never to have denied that we need better oversight after you just got done telling us all “no, you don’t get to judge…to judge a public servant who is doing their best to do their job, piss off…your opinion isn’t worth shit…you have not earned the right to criticize these people….”
Where is this oversight going to come from, if not from American citizens monitoring and criticizing their paid public servants?
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
I’m sure that Chargers linebacker Steve Foley was grateful for the tireless work shown by Coronado Police Officer Aaron Mansker during his off hours. As a self-appointed crusader against intoxicated drivers, Mansaker pursued Foley for miles, never once calling for backup or asking for help, while dressed in civilian clothes and driving his civilian car. After cornering and then placing several bullets in Foley – who, by the way, wasn’t the driver, but had the misfortune to be large and black, a justifiably death-penalty offense in San Diego – and ending what had promised to be an otherwise lucrative NFL career, Mansaker was, as per standard operating procedure, completely exonerated by the San Diego County District Attorney, but the City of Coronado, which has a longstanding policy of hating cops by virtue of not wanting to bankrupt the city by defending them to the bitter end, pussed out upon seeing the writing on the wall as regarding the outcome of the civil suit, and paid Foley approximately six million dollars.
I just know that Steven Foley thanked God every time he felt a new bullet tear into his body, ripping flesh and shattering bone, that he could be the privileged recipient of this well-screened, well-selected, and completely normal and mentally sound officer’s slugs of justice. I’m sure as he was lying on the ground that he was hoping that Officer Mansaker would come up to him and empty his service weapon into his brain, so that we could all make sure that the officer “got home at the end of the day”.
Cassidy
I said in the very same quote that your free to criticize the system. It needs work. I’ve never said anything different. But once again, to smear a whole community based on the anecdotes of a few is wrong. You guys are wrong. This isn’t hard. But you refuse to accept it because of your own insecurities and prejudices.
Mattminus
The whole “You hate cops because you’re insecure” approach is….novel. Retarded, but novel.
I think Cassidy is starting to get mad that he has to use his words instead of double tapping us.
D. Mason
It’s wrong up to the point where the community provides cover and protection for the wrongdoers. When that happens it’s only normal for said community to bear the brunt of the “few bad apples”. I sure as shit wouldn’t let my (hypothetical)son be an altar boy. That’s not because of the few that like to rape children, it’s because they’re within an organization which protects child rapists regularly. The Police are the same, except for murderers.
When the blue curtain of silence disappears so will disdain for the LEO community at large. Clean up your house and people will respect you again. There’s no other way.
Edited for clarity
Tsulagi
Well, shit, got here a little late for this one. Working the day job and all that.
@cassidy: I see you still retain that gift of being able to win friends and influence people. Transitioning to LE, huh? Guess when your new squad mates get cuts from their Krispy Kreme boxes you’ll be able to patch them up. j/k Good luck. Seriously.
Skimming some of the comments, seems Cassidy’s basic position is pretty innocuous: SWAT teams and LE like all humans in any profession have made mistakes they should be called on, corrective action taken, but to claim there is an overwhelming widespread pandemic of police aggression against citizens is stupid. I’d go with that. And that the overwhelming majority of police officers are decent people doing their job.
Stefan
I said in the very same quote that your free to criticize the system.
Yes, you did, but so what? While you did indeed say “criticize the system”, you also said “And no, you don’t get to judge…Your opinion isn’t worth shit…you have not earned the right to criticize the people.” In that case your oh-so-generous offer to criticize “the system” without actually criticizing any of the real human beings who work in that system to make it what it is is essentially useless. It’s like saying “sure, criticize the Mafia all you want but don’t judge the gangsters who’ve chosen to work within the Mafia.” If you’re part of the system, you have to accept some responsibility for how the system works.
It needs work. I’ve never said anything different.
Yes, you did. You’re just pretending to yourself that you didn’t, but that’s not fooling any of us.
jh
Cassidy,
Your comment that was quoted above was contradictory.
You can’t reconcile encouraging criticism of a system while discouraging criticism of the individuals who comprise that system.
It’s not “either / or”, you have to do both or nothing gets better.
And since we are trading in pop psychoanalyses on this thread, I sense you are feeling beseiged, butthurt and unappreciated, which is causing you lash out.
Perhaps someone with your temperment isn’t suited to law enforcement.
Cassidy
Not really. You recognize your dishonesty. You recognize that in a high stress situation you have no idea what you would do. You hope you’d be the movie action hero and not the guy smelling of piss. So you project those insecurities on others and assume the worst because you know that’s how you would react. You refuse to believe that some people are just better than you: more honest, more willpower, the intestinal fortitude to get through adversity, etc. You’ve created this persona where you’re superior because of your sarcastic wit or knowledge of obscure bullshit or whatever so that you don’t have to face the fact that some people are just better.
John X.
I have to say, while I should be worried, I find this all hilarious. Cassidy started this by yelling at me that I was making up the existence of Community Policing grants, then went on to yell at all the other commentors for daring to criticize the police.
Every thread about police abuse should have its own pet ‘roid-raging officer to yell at the posters. It’s a great tool for clarifying the issue.
Mattminus
Yeah, Cassidy, you’re right. I realize that I don’t have what it takes to gun down a grandma or burn a baby to death, and I’m envious of the supermen that can.
is this the kind of stuff you tell yourself after you gun down some brown kid in a foreign country?
Cassidy
That’s not true. The job of LEO’s is to enforce the law. They don’t make the law. They don’t interpret the law. Those that do are wrong. They are there to enforce the laws. So demonizing a group of people for doing their job in as professional manner as possible while putting up with people like some of the shitheads on this thread, is wrong.
Cassidy
I never shot anyone. Would I have under certain circumstances? Yup. Would I have felt bad about it? No. Really dude, you’re not gonna make me feel bad about doing my job and making sure me and my buddies live. Barking up the wrong tree there.
I’ve actually saved a few “brown people’s” lives. Kinda my job.
Wasn’t yelling at you. It was the thread in general. Your all’s collective attitude and stance was bullshit. It still is.
Douglas
Can we have a Best Troll award or something?
Cause Cassidy is delivering a grade A performance here.
Also, that “You hate LEO because you’re insecure” is a new variation of pretty old BS, just switch LEO for military and insecure for cowardly or any other number of “unmanly” words.
Ruckus
Cassidy
I’m not allowed to show disdain for cops? Cops that are armed with handguns, tazers, nightsticks, switchblades, blackjacks, backup guns, pepper spray, attitudes of complete authority over every aspect of my life? I have seen cops with every one of those. The closest thing I carry to a weapon is my house keys. Yet every day I have to worry that one of the finest human beings ever produced is going to use one or more of those on me. For no reason whatsoever. No legal reason, no moral reason. None And he/she is going to get away with it.
You can talk about how it is isolated cases, but it is not anymore. You can talk about how hard the job is. I call BS. Lots of jobs are more dangerous. And the consequences for others to be involved are much less.
You are just wrong. And you making the continued types of arguments that you do shows that you should never, ever be hired by any police department. But you probably will be. And that is precisely the argument that most here are making.
Thin blue line my ass. That sucker is miles wide and several stories high. Wide blue cloak is more like it.
And just in case you were wondering, I used to carry a sidearm for work and arrest people.
shortstop
Are you freaking kidding us? We need to show that 51 percent of cops are bent before you’ll even consider it a problem? Are you for goddamned real?
Cassidy
That’s right I forgot that around here troll means not agreeing with some stupid, made up anecdotal bullshit.
FIGHT THE POWER…with my comments.
PIGS SUCK!!! HHEHEHEHE BACON….
Feel better?
No. If you’re going to slander and demonize a whole community, then you need to show that it is the whole community and not a small, minority of which I would imagine is statistically similar to other professions as far as immoral, unethical behavior goes.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
Captain Cheeto is still here? Wow, that’s some determination, gotta give him that. What kind of keyboard are you using, Cassidy? Anything that can function under a half-inch layer of caked-on Cheeto dust and spittle would be great for my guys out in the field.
Gotta say that baiting these armchair officers (or real-life actual cops too, but I don’t recommend that) is the easiest thing ever. Just start telling the truth.
Much like the lunatics over at the Catholic League, they will do anything to avoid an honest discussion of the problems inside of their little worlds. I guess we should be grateful that priests can’t legally shoot anyone.
Tsulagi
How about a Best Asshole award too. I’d nominate this one…
jh
Cassidy,
Really dude? Is that what you’re going to go with? The ole “we don’t make the laws, we just enforce the laws ” defense?
:sigh:
The system we are critizing does not end at the laws which are drafted.
The system extends down to those individuals who do the enforcement and the manner in which that law is enforced.
That is what this whole discussion has been about.
Not that the cops are being asked to enforce the laws of the land are setting out with the intent to violate those laws, or that they are helpless in the face of enforcing laws which may be unjust (as in the WOD), but that some of them are carrying out their duties with military grade equipment and tactics more suited to a war zone than Main Street.
It is not surprising to discover that in doing the above, some officers are carrying out law enforcement without regard to public safety, civil rights, basic common sense or decency.
Which warrants criticism of those individuals AND the system which hires, trains and fields those officers.
The follow on criticism was that there is little in the way of standards or oversight in the way these tools are deployed, and what is more horrifying for those of us who may be on the recieving end of these tactics is lack of accountability when something terrible happens – which is far too often IMO.
The final criticism is that when confronted with criticism, rather than correct itself, the system and its participants resort to silence, obfuscation of facts, intimidation (of both citizens and insiders who betray the well document omerta – see the thin blue line) and outright hostility with too much regularity to be acceptable to a civilized society.
jh
Um Nonsense.
It’s a self selecting “community” of citizen-funded volunteers which takes an oath to protect and serve the public.
LEOs aren’t like other professions.
They are empowered to use force, sometimes deadly, if necessary in the carrying out of their duties.
Thus, they are held to higher standards of conduct far more stringent than other public servants, let alone other generic professions.
Given that framework, the onus is not on the citizenry to blithely accept the “statistical norm” for errors, corruption or depraved behavior.
We quite simply cannot afford to, our very lives are in your hands.
Stefan
You refuse to believe that some people are just better than you: more honest, more willpower, the intestinal fortitude to get through adversity, etc. You’ve created this persona where you’re superior because of your sarcastic wit or knowledge of obscure bullshit or whatever so that you don’t have to face the fact that some people are just better.
Hyper-aggressive, narcissistic, unable to take criticism, thin-skinned, paranoid, irrational and suffused with a completely unearned sense of his own superiority: yup, got all the makings of a great police officer right here. This is just the sort of guy we need to wade into tense situations in order to make instant high-stakes decisions.
Stefan
The job of LEO’s is to enforce the law. They don’t make the law. They don’t interpret the law. Those that do are wrong. They are there to enforce the laws. So demonizing a group of people for doing their job in as professional manner as possible while putting up with people like some of the shitheads on this thread, is wrong.
The job of an East German border guard is to enforce the law. They don’t make the law. They don’t interpret the law. Those that do are wrong. They are there to enforce the laws. So demonizing a group of East German border guards for gunning down fleeing East Germans in the back in as professional manner as possible while putting up with people like some of the shitheads on this thread, is wrong.
Cassidy
Aww Stefan…did a cop step on your drunken protest one night? Try fightin’ the power after a few too many? I’m sure all the freshman girls were impressed. Grow up, douche.
Really? So we spent almost 100 comments with a couple of shitheads saying it isn’t hard; it’s no different than being a fisherman right?
Like I’ve said before, of course there are going to be bad cops. Doesn’t mean they all are bad.
Jason in the peg
You refuse to believe that some people are just better than you: more honest, more willpower, the intestinal fortitude to get through adversity, etc. You’ve created this persona where you’re superior because of your sarcastic wit or knowledge of obscure bullshit or whatever so that you don’t have to face the fact that some people are just better.
Well if I’m going to continue to be considered a sanctimonious and self-righteous prick I see I’m going to have to step it up cause the bar has been raised.
Cassidy
Never said I wasn’t an asshole. But I’ve never been one to lower the standard because some people come up short and then want the standard to be lowered so they can feel better about themselves. You train enough Privates and you learn to not accept “okay” or “good enough”.
shortstop
No kidding. Gosh, what could go wrong? And how did he pass the psych screening?
Now you’re just “deflecting,” Stefan. BTW, “deflection” is now a euphemism for “stop showing me how ludicrous my assertions are by creating perfect analogies.”
jh
Correction: They weren’t saying wasn’t any “different”, they were saying is there are other professions which have similar or higher fatality rates, which is true.
Where being an officer of the law is in fact “different” from those other professions, is that police are armed (with taxpayer funding mind you) and given license to use force with the full backing and authority of the state.
I don’t think deep sea fishermen can make that claim.
Cassidy
No, it means you’re trying to not answer the question by coming up some ludicrous, anecdotal bullshit.
shortstop
Add to Stefan’s list of Cassidy’s emotional deficiencies: unable even to consider that any criticism of himself might be worth examining. Yeah, we’ll be reading about a giant civil case against someone named Cassidy sooner rather than later.
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
The troll isn’t going to be a cop, and it was never in the military. It’s some freakin’ Keyboard Kommando wackjob who spends his time in his mom’s driveway practicing PIT manuevers with his old Hot Wheels, and spends the rest of his time recreating episodes of COPS with army men, half of which have been given a coat of black paint on the face. For realism.
Cassidy
Deep sea fisherman don’t get shot doing routine traffic stops by Soveriegn Citizens with AK’s, either.
Cassidy
Fort Carson, Co, son. C’mon down. I’ll give you my address and everything. Put your money where your mouth is champ.
Stefan
Aww Stefan…did a cop step on your drunken protest one night? Try fightin’ the power after a few too many? I’m sure all the freshman girls were impressed. Grow up, douche.
Um, I’m a middle-aged Wall Street guy who lives in a luxury high-rise. I wear a suit and tie every day and spend my days structuring financial transactions. Yeah, I’m a real hippie.
Look, I’m sure the pictures in your head are very vivid, but they don’t always correspond to real life.
Cassidy
Still need to grow up, apparently.
I guess this is the big difference between me and you. I do what’s right even when people aren’t looking. I guess you simply don’t have the integrity to do that and you assume everyone else is the same.
jh
No, they get caught in nets and dragged to a watery grave, or recieve fatal head trauma from errant blocking while working in subzero temperatures, or they are simply thrown overboard from a heaving trawler into icy waters, never to be seen again.
Your point?
And you know who else gets shot with AKs?
Women and children growing up in the Central African Republic (and the far too numerous places like it). By both armed miltias AND the national defense forces.
And they don’t have the benefit of taxpayer funded training, arms and membership in a larger organization of similar persons.
Got anything else?
Cassidy
Shooting an AK is easy. That’s why it’s so popular.
jh
Since we passed Crazytown a long while ago, I see we’ve decided to take the last exit to Absurdville.
Wonderful.
So I guess we’ll be leaving it there then.
Mattminus
@ Post #115 – We’ve now reached the point where the internet tough guy posts his location and challenges you to come get some. Nice!
Douglas
I wonder if he’ll fax some proof to DougJ?
Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory
No chance, son. I’m calling your NIPR CO – I know a few folks out there – reporting you for unauthorized usage and posting of threats. Thanks ever so much for playing.