James Dwight has a few thoughts on Max Cleland:
Max Cleland has found a permanent role for himself in the American political scene. He has appointed himself the arbiter in charge of determining when a politician has become a victim. I see Max
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Max M
For ‘victim’ substitute ‘victim of politically motivated slander of your war record’, and the guy has a good point. Good on you Max.
JKC
And unlike John Ashcroft, who lost his re-election campaign to a cadaver, there isn’t a cushy Cabinet job for Cleland to slide into.
Yet.
RW
Max M,
Do tell. With details. This Georgia voter who followed the ’02 campaign as closely as anyone, eagerly awaits what your google search turns up.
Max M
Saddam and Osama have no place in an advert about a dispute over unionisation of federal employees. So that was rather disgraceful. The fact that he was injured so horribly in the course of his military service would leave most decent people to tread lightly when criticising his commitment to protecting this nation from its enemies. No googling required, just simple decency.
RW
Please try again, this time detailing how Cleland’s war record was slandered, per your claim. I am presuming that you’re not redefining “slander” and “war record” into something new, brought about by inferences and word morphing, so the actual instances where Cleland’s war record was slandered is something I’m rather interested in finding out about.
And I’m hoping not to come away disappointed, since so many have put forth false allegations, especially pertaining to that campaign, so you MUST be referring to a commercial other than the ones I saw (and have links to), so……do tell, because I don’t recall a damn thing about Cleland’s war record during the campaign other than praise put forth by Chambliss during the debates.
Or would you like to take this opportunity to readdress your initial claim (remember, I’m ready to link the commercial on a moment’s notice)?
capt joe
JKC, you are wrong there.
He appointed him to a cushy $130,000 a year job on the board of the Export-Import bank: http://www.exim.gov/about/leadership/mcleland.htm
Bush appointed him.
research, man, research.
shark
Saddam and Osama have no place in an advert about a dispute over unionisation of federal employees
They sure do when the debate is about the dept. of Homeland Security….
shark
The fact that he was injured so horribly in the course of his military service would leave most decent people to tread lightly when criticising his commitment to protecting this nation from its enemies. No googling required, just simple decency.
No thanks. When his commitment to protecting his union paymasters exceeds his commitment to protecting this nation, it becomes fair game.
pj
I don’t understand you guys — you gleefully endorse lies. I’ll admit, these lies may be effective. It is difficult to counter them in the current talking head media setting. But the Swift Boat Liars are so obviously lying.
Everyday comes further indisputable proof of their lies. Here’s an interview of the guy who is the official witness for Thurlow’s bronze star. He clearly hates Kerry, but unlike O’Neill, Thurlow, French, Elliot and their ilk, this man’s got integrity.
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0826/local/stories/01local.htm
JJACITELLI
“I don’t understand you guys — you gleefully endorse lies”
PJ, project much?
“But the Swift Boat Liars are so obviously lying.”
To all, this is the DNC talking point currently being used. There it is in full glory, From the NYT’s to Chris Matthews. Never have to prove it, just say it enough times and it becomes the truth.
Also, where the swifties lying about Kerry’s adventures in Combodia? Or his 1st purple heart? You know, the stories that Kerry himself have backpeddled from since they were, let me say, untruthful? Yeah, yeah, keep spinning.
RW
pj,
Please cite the official documents that show Kerry hasn’t been lying all along about his trip(s) into Cambodia.
No parsing, no commentary, no smear….just official documents.
Tongue Boy
I don’t know what all the fuss is about. Of *course*, all 64 veterans in this group who served with John Kerry are lying. And the other 190+ Swiftboat sleazeball decorated veterans who didn’t serve with John Kerry are certainly *not* entitled to their opinion of his abilities to be C-in-C of our great nation. I mean what do you think this is – America? Besides, they weren’t in the same boat with him anyway, numbnutz! Geez, *all* the kewl kidz know *that*…
I mean, geez, then what’s all this ruckus about the Junior Senator from the great state of Massachusetts releasing military records and backtracking on *Cambodia* (where the hell is that and what the hell does that have to do with the Chimpler going AWOL?) and Purple Hearts (hey, weren’t they handing those out like candy, anyway?) and all that yucky poo-poo stuff? He’s got greeaaat hair and writes a mean after-action report. What else do you need in a C-in-C? GET A LIFE, YOU REPUGLICAN BROWN SHIRTS!!!!!
Oh, and a shout out to my man Max. Way to bite the hand that feeds you, dude. To the tune of $130K, even. You absoeffinglutely rock!
pj
RW
All I can say is that many years ago he said he was. Why you care is probably a better question? You’d think the current president’s false statements about WMD would matter more than an offhanded war story.
But, anyway, I believe Kerry because circumstantial evidence backs him up. Most significantly, the guy who took over the same boat and did the same route also said he was in Cambodia.
And the rest of the Swift Boat lies have fallen apart so badly that they are not worth commenting on again.
Dean
pj:
Sad to see that, having had a calm comment below, you should burst out like that here.
That the President’s statements turned out wrong is not the same *at all* as claiming that the President made false statements. Or, as others have long noted, are you prepared to hold Clinton, the Russians, and the likes of John Kerry and the rest, to similar standards, since *everyone* believed that the Iraqis had WMD??
As for the rest:
The US entered Cambodia officially in 1970 (iirc). This is like arguing that a veteran who said he was in France in 1945 proves that a man who said he was in France in 1941 is telling the truth.
And, could you direct me to a site that shows the SBVT’s comments are lies? NOT differences of opinion, not lies as in “Bush lied about WMD,” but documented proof?
jeff
What are all these lies that have fallen apart so badly?
There’s been a few contradictions, but nothing that isn’t to be expected when people are recalling things that happened 35 years ago, and i give Kerry the benefit of the doubt on that too, as I don’t care where the fuck he spent Christmas in ’68. I’m not voting for him anyway.
The left really does think if you keep lying, it becomes fact.
It’s the same thing they did with Al Franken’s books and Michael Moore’s movie.
Even after numerous lies in both had been exposed, they kept saying “there hasn’t been a single lie or factual error that’s been proven”.
God, these people are delusional.
Rick
“And, could you direct me to a site that shows the SBVT’s comments are lies? NOT differences of opinion, not lies as in “Bush lied about WMD,” but documented proof?”
Dean,
Good luck. I suppose they could be demonstrated by a thorough airing of Kerry’s USN records, but the liklihood is that wouldn’t be the case, or the document dump would already have occurred.
It seems, on balance, that Kerry’s rich fantasy life has taken far more hits than the Swiftees’ story. I can recall no major party candidate ever have to withdraw–tail tucked tightly against the genitals–from a major, searing biograhphical story.
When “pj” writes, he/she conjures the image of Dennis the Menace’s pj’s: the kind with little feet on them, and a rear flap. The butt is always showing.
Cordailly…
Dean
Rick:
I’ve been asking this question now at a number of sites, b/c I’ve seen Mark Kleiman (who’s pretty respected in the blogosphere, I think) and others all make this claim:
The Swift vets’ comments have been *proven* to be lies, from one end to the other.
Okay, then there must be someone, SOMEONE out there who’s created a compendium. Think about the Kerry time-line of campaign missteps, or the Captain’s Quarters, where he’s been tracking the various Kerry lies/untruths/contradictions.
I don’t tend to inhabit the Left Blogosphere. I’ll happily go read a site where somebody can actually show the Swift types are, in fact, lying.
But nobody’s done that yet.
Very odd.
pj
Dean
I pointedly did not state that Bush “lied” about WMD. A lie requires intent, and while I believe that Bush did have such intent, its really impossible to prove, so I intentionally said “false statements.” There is no doubt that Bush’s pre-war statements about WMD proved to be false. And even if you think Bush is the most honest man in the world, its still one of the biggest problems the US currently has, both from an intelligence standpoint and in terms of global credibility in dealing with Iran’s nuclear program.
Dean
pj:
I noticed your wording. It’s precisely why I responded the way I did. Bush’s statements are not the issue. The intelligence failure is. You could have said that, and I’d have agreed w/ you (somewhat).
Although, to your credit, you didn’t use the word “lies,” as so many do.
Now, can you direct me to a site that details how the Swift boat vets are LIES?
Rick
The problem with the first Swiftee ad content, or specifically, the dispute over Kerry’s decorations, is that of Rashomon. Different perspectives/memories of the same event.
I submit no one–neither Kerry nor the opposed Swiftees–can be conclusively shown to be “lying” in re: events. Unless one or more confesses to doing that malicious act.
Of course, the decoration dust-up is just the overture. The Swiftee beef is really with Kerry’s, well, lies to the Senate and the nation.
OK, either that, or Kerry is a war criminal. Can’t have that as President, as I’m sure A.N.S.W.E.R. would agree.
Cordially…
pj
Dean
I can direct you to such a site, but I don’t have the time at the moment to track down the best one.
The key lie points are as follows:
French signed an affidavit stating that he had personal knowledge about the events described in it. He says on TV, “I served with JK. I know he’s lying” When pressed, he admits to no first hand knowledge at all, and says he based his statement on hearsay. He’s a prosecutor too, so he clearly knows the difference.
Thurlow — says Kerry was not under fire. Proof that’s he’s lying: Thurlow’s bronze star letter, after action report, weekly incident report, statements of every man on Kerry’s boat and Rassman, Lambert’s bronze star letter. Thurlow says the records were written by Kerry because they were initial KJW. This is another lie –he’s got no basis to say it, and his bronze star is witnessed by his crewmate Lambert. Lambert who risked his life to say Thurlow that day, now gets no credit from scum bag Thurlow, yet has no hard feelings about it apparently. Above, I cite yesterday’s newspaper interview of Lambert, who clearly dislikes Kerry, and still likes Thurlow, but who says that they were under small arms fire that day. Lambert also says that Kerry didn’t write the reports. Rassman says he put Kerry in for the Silver Star, so the theory that Kerry wrote this up for self-aggrandizement is refuted by that too.
O’Neil and Thurlow say on TV there were no bullet holes in any of the boats. Records show three bullet holes in Thurlows boat.
Silver Star — Root backs up Kerry entirely. Hoffman sends out radio message on the same day commending the action. Elliot says on videotape in 1996 that it was heroic to turn into an ambush and deserving of Silver Star. In 1969, Elliot says Kerry was brave to the point of near recklessness. Elliot and Lonsdale both now criticize Kerry’s award, but in 1996 they say that the award was vetted from accounts from several people (again, they’re saying this on video). Elliot recants affidavit, gets humilated in the press, then signs no affidavit with changed wording that falls back on accepting revisionist hearsay of others, but doesn’t identify who, and Root, the other officer there, backs Kerry.
O’Neill — says there was no watery border with Cambodia, says going into Cambodia was grounds for court martial, says that he never was in Cambodia. Tells Nixon on tape in 71 that he was in Cambodia.
Dr. Lector (or whatever the hell his real name is) — Claims that because he treated Kerry, he knows he’s lying about his purple heart. Powerful statement, but utter bullshit. He can’t know whether Kerry engaged the enemy from the wound, and he can’t name a single person who told him about the events of that night.
Finally, the general statements and expressions of opinion about Kerry’s fitness as a swift boat commander are all contradicted by contemporaneous reviews of Kerry.
That’s just a start.
Rick
pj,
You’re so frantic to buttress Kerry, you omit all consideration for timelines. As in the bullet holes in boats are from previous days, and O’Neil’s patrolling @ Cambodian border was during the controversial 1970 “incursion,” and took place at sea, not in the non-“bordering” Mekong.
The Swiftees dispute the official records as established by Kerry’s decorations, and that is a monumental undertaking. (As, for that matter, should be the manufactured “controvery” over the “AWOL” passion of the Spring. In that case, official records just weren’t enough). Significantly, the Swiftee fire has caused Kerry to retreat on Cambodia, and now the first PH, it seems.
It’s confusing, I admit. But do try to keep up.
Cordially…
Dean
pj:
Some of that is interesting, some is, uh, double-edged.
French’s affidavit would seem to be bad. OTOH, the defense of Kerry’s 71 testimony is that he was merely relating what was said, not what he’d witnessed.
Thurlow is, from what you’re saying, problematic. HOWEVER, that being said, if they were under such fire, how come only three bullet holes, from fully automatic weapons? These were not swimmer boats, after all.
Silver Star story is most bizarre, w/ all the recantings back and forth. But Root, having only served “with” Kerry, but not on his boat, is subject to the same rules that one holds other Swift boat commanders to.
O’Neill on Cambodia? As I said—he may well have been in Cambodia after it was sanctioned.
I’m not sure about Lefson’s comments.
As for the contemporaneous OERs, well, suffice to say that I’ve seen a few of them—that says relatively little.
That, of course, is assuming that things are as you say. A site would be appreciated, so that the actual evidence, statements, etc., could be compared.
RW
You sure you wanna go with “many years ago”. Think carefully before you answer.
Bait and switch duly noted.
Circumstantial evidence (the sum of which amounts to John Kerry saying so) being all that is required of Kerry, while official governmental documentation being required for anyone questioning Kerry is duly noted, as well.
Duplicity knows no barriers, eh?
And Lou Gehrig took over for Wally Pipp and played in 2,130 consecutive games, just like Pipp. People who follow others do the same thing, right?
Right. Because their circumstantial.
It couldn’t be because it’s done a great amount of damage to Kerry and you guys STILL don’t have a cohenent set of talking points to refute the Cambodia lie, yet (give Josh and Duncan time…..Sidney will get them some rebuttals as soon as Stan Greenberg’s polls come back with the most acceptable buzz words).
That feeling in your stomach? The one that makes you wonder if it’s all coming apart? That’s the way Bush supporters felt when the DUI stories hit. Sucks, huh?
Josh Martin
What happened to Max?
And for you Swift Boat Liars are Lying Liars types, here’s a question for you:
If Kerry is correct (with the exceptions of Christmas in Cambodia and the first purple heart, which I hope you’ll stipulate to, inasmuch as Kerry has), why hasn’t he signed the 180 to release his entire record.
After all, it should be able to answer most, if not all, of the SBVFT’s claims quickly and, for the most part, definitively.
So, please, without changing the subject, tell me why Kerry hasn’t signed the form?
I have my opinion – I’d love to hear yours.
pj
Josh
What records are you looking for? They’re on Kerry’s site. The only records Kerry has not publicly released are his medical records — he’s allowed those to be reviewed by reporters but not kept for privacy reasons.
Max M
It was a quit, RW. Get off your high horse.
Max M
A quip even. The ‘slandering war records’ refers to JFK not Cleland. Still hold that saddam and osama had no place in the ad etc as before. Etcetera. But feel free to parse and impugn to your heart’s content.
Max M
When the lefties were saying the exact same thing it slander!, slander I tell you!, and they’ll never be happy!, Bush shouldn’t give them anything ’cause they’ll just spin it and lie about it! etcetera. Has Bush signed the 180 yet? I honestly do not know and would appreciate a cite.
RW
Good enough.
CadillaqJaq
I caught Mac Cleand’s diatribe live yesterday from Crawford TX: ugly…
Driving home from downstate today I caught Rush Limbaugh’s stand-in, Roger Hitchcock doing a live telephone interview with one of Kerry’s crewmen, one Steven Gardner (sp?) who was a gunner’s mate manning the twin 50-caliber machine guns 14′ above the water line on Kerry’s boat. Gardner served longer than any other “liar” on Kerry’s boat for a period of 2 months and 2 weeks during Kerry’s tour of 4 months and 12 days.
He sounded damn credible to me as he denounced Kerry’s claim to having been in Cambodia in December of ’68 or at any other time, or to Kerry’s claim that he shot and killed two VC (which Gardner claimed he himself shot with the 50-caliber weapon). Then told an interesting story about Kerry’s first Purple Heart.
Some will say what he said were “lies.” I say what he said was an expression of Freedom of Speech.
Bummer, huh?
pj
I wondered what Gardner’s “interesting” story about the purple heart was since the guy has admitted he wasn’t there.
And Dean, here’s a good website collecting the debunkings of the swiftvets — although even it is not complete:
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/
beloney
PJ,
Thanks for link. Went there and read the first post. Seems the story about schrapnel in Kerrys butt (3rd P.H.?) was by his own admission, self-inflicted while not engaged in enemy action. Strange what you find when you actually read something.
Dean
pj:
Looking at the Kerry and Cambodia portion, I find it very odd that the site is claiming that Kerry *could* have been in Cambodia at Christmas, 1968, when I believe that the Kerry campaign has already said that he was *not* in Cambodia at Christmas, 1968.
More to the point, the entry is mostly that some US forces were in Cambodia, but no documentation that Kerry was ordered to the area, that he was undertaking some kind of mission in the area, or even that his fellow crewmen agreed that they had been in Cambodia (never mind that another Swift boat was there w/ him, when most missions involved more than one Swift boat).
I’m afraid that it reads much more like, “Swifties say X, Kerry says -X.” Now *someone* *might* be lying, but if the site itself confesses that people’s memories get hazy, then one is still left wondering what makes SBVT the *liars*, but not Kerry?