Lots of left-wing heroes in the news today. First, Joseph Wilson:
To his backers, Joseph C. Wilson IV is a brave whistle-blower wronged by the Bush administration. To his critics, he is a partisan who spouts unreliable information.
But nobody disputes this: Possessed of a flamboyant style and a love for the camera lens, Wilson helped propel the unmasking of his wife’s identity as a CIA operative into a sprawling, two-year legal probe that climaxes this week with the possible indictment of key White House officials. He also turned an arcane matter involving the Intelligence Identities Protection Act into a proxy fight over the administration’s credibility and its case for war in Iraq.
Also beyond dispute is the fact that the little-known diplomat took maximum advantage of his 15 minutes of fame. Wilson has been a fixture on the network and cable news circuit for two years — from “Meet the Press” to “Imus in the Morning” to “The Daily Show.” He traveled west and lunched with the likes of Norman Lear and Warren Beatty.
He published a book, “The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife’s CIA Identity.” He persuaded his wife, Valerie Plame, to appear with him in a January 2004 Vanity Fair photo spread, in which the two appeared in his Jaguar convertible.
Now, amid speculation that prosecutors could bring charges against White House officials this week, Republicans preparing a defense of the administration are reviving the debate about Wilson’s credibility and integrity.
In other news, Mother Sheehan is looking for her 16th minute of fame:
In a week in which the media decided that Judy Miller’s dark-days-of-journalism story is really about Dick Cheney and the Bush administration’s decision to go to war, we also hover around the milestone of 2,000 dead in Iraq.
As the New York Daily News said yesterday, the event will surely trigger the predictable play: A media horde will descend on the hometown of the 2,000th. Pundits and experts will get their 15 seconds. They’ll be “the Cindy Sheehan comeback, the Maureen Dowd column and perhaps an impromptu statement from the First Lady.”
Cindy Sheehan. Could there be a more ineffective anti-war voice?
As soon as the casualty number tops 2,000, the grieving mother says she’s going to tie herself to a White House fence and refuse to leave until President Bush agrees to bring home the troops. “I’m kinda addicted to getting arrested,” she says.
What about Michael Moore? George Soros? Sean Penn? Babs? What happened to the old guard?
Consider this an open flame war thread. And make sure you check out the comments in that second link (Arkin on Sheehan)- it makes the comments section here look downright respectable.
*** Update ***
In other news, George Galloway remains a lying sack of shit, and since perjury is now considered a bad thing again (unless you are Kay Bailey Hutchinson), this should raise some eyebrows on the left:
George Galloway today challenged US senators to charge him with perjury over claims that he solicited money from Saddam Hussein’s oil-for-food programme and lied about it under oath.
The US Senate committee investigating the Respect MP’s alleged involvement in the saga claims to have discovered Ā£85,000 (150,000 dollars) in Iraqi oil money in his estranged wife’s bank account.
And its chairman, Republican Senator Norm Coleman, says this means Mr Galloway lied under oath when giving evidence to the Senate Permanent Sub-committee on Investigations on May 17 this year, when he offered a passionate defence against similar claims.
Vile human being.
Davebo
Must Mention Sheehan….. BWAAHHH
After all, there’s nothing newsworthy to blog about this week…
DougJ
Come on, Joe Wilson is an actual hero. Not for his role in this, but for keeping the embassy in Baghdad open during Gulf War I. Try reading what Republicans said about him *before* all this happened.
John Cole
DougJ- I agree- what he did in the GUlf War was heoric.
DaveBo- What part of open flame war threads do you not understand? I post them so jackasses like you and slide fling feces in the right cage and don’t queer every other thread.
Krista
Joe Wilson is media-savvy, but I think he had a very different rationale for doing this: he was probably afraid that the White House would try (and succeed) to sweep it all under the rug. He probably figured that the only way to prevent that from happening would be to tell everybody who’d listen, and tell it often. I’m just speculating, of course, but knowing what we know about this administration, would you really blame him for thinking that justice would not be served unless he made a big stink about it?
KC
Wilson’s always been a big self promoter. But, for me, Sheehan is beyond what I can take. I’m not a supporter of this administration on most things, but the one topic I think I could meet with a lot of administration minds on is Sheehan. I’m sorry her son died, I also support her right to protest; however, I don’t support her acting like a loon just to get some news. Inevitably, I think her stunts will work against her more than for her.
Davebo
John,
So what are the odds the Senate Committee actually does put up or shut up?
I’m guessing they’ll reveal their evidence and see what happens regardless of the whip count.
jackass: Noun. Denotes anyone who points out another’s massive cognitive dissonence and disconnect from reality
Lines
Yeah, Cindy will never get elected the way she’s going. Its all definately going to go against her, soon she won’t even be able to be an ambassador or head of FEMA
feral1
Well Galloway is challenging Coleman to charge him with perjury and offering to immediately return to the U.S. to defend himself. Here’s my prediction- Coleman won’t take the challenge and these charges will fade away. I say this not because I have any special knowledge of this case or Galloway, but because I do know that Coleman is a light weight dink who doesn’t want to be embarrassed by Galloway a second time.
We’ll see if my prediction comes true.
Uncle Jimbo
Dear John,
Always enjoy your not-the-party-line view of things.
Last month George Galloway and Jane Fonda were scheduled to speak here in Madison, WI. Fonda said she was sick, or sickening, whatever and no-showed. Galloway was there and I weaseled into the press conference with home made credentials and got four questions with him.
Worst thing is Galloway said to me “I’m beginning to think you’re an honest man” I’m asking you not to hold that against me, although I did get in a shot about disco dancing with Tariq Aziz. Story and video here:
Mr. Galloway comes to Madison
http://www.madison.com/post/blogs/militarymatters/index.php?ntid=54671&ntpid=2
Cordially,
Uncle J
Andrei
How incredibly stupid. Instead of elevated discourse or proper rebuttals to people who “queer” your posts (and I’m waiting to see you deal with Darrell proper on that topic… hell, I’m waiting to see you deal with most on the left with better rebuttals than the usual “I’m right, you’re wrong” variety when disagreements come up), you purposely try to douse the fire with gasoline? Yeah, that’s working out how for you? I guess ppGaz might be right… the blaze just increases your ad counts and possible click-throughs, so maybe you’re really just doing it for the money.
Mac Buckets
Nothing will happen on the perjury charge, but for a different reason. Coleman doesn’t want to get killed by Galloway’s roving bands of violent young Muslim supporters. The Bethnal Green Boys don’t muck about.
Ancient Purple
Not at all. I would also suspect that Wilson is angered for being slapped around by this administration in his own right and having his wife outed as a CIA operative. Wilson was angry enough, but having his wife harmed probably pushed him over the edge.
But not to worry. Wilson will be tarred and feathered, along with Fitzgerald and everyone else. All courtesy of the moral, ethical, compassionate and loving Bush administration.
Sojourner
Terrific! Another opportunity to watch Coleman get his ass handed to him.
Popcorn anyone?
slide
thats a rather harsh assessment of Senator Norm Coleman isn’t it?
jahyarain
sorry, you’ll have to get pigboy to give you one last angle before he’s kicked out of his master’s house. the whole “attack the ones who speak the truth” thing doesn’t work anymore. it’s crumbling, kids. regressives have never been able to handle power. makes ’em arrogant and careless. they get sloppy about their coverups and you get what we have with the GOP today. but don’t worry, after eight years of a democratically elected liberal (who fixes the republican destruction…again), religion will rear its ugly head again and you’ll have another repuke come in and destroy it all again in the name of Jesus!
John Cole
Umm, Andrei- I am under contract, so page views and what not do not matter one bit. Nice try, though.
And I stated this publicly months ago- I would designate places for flame wars, and try to ‘elevate’ the discourse elsewhere in threads.
slide
All I have to say is thank God for people like Joe Wilson. It would have been a lot easier for him to have said nothing when confronted with the administration’s obvious distortions of the nuclear capabilities of Iraq. He could have said nothing like the press did, like most pundits did, like most fuckin democrats did. But he didn’t. He came out, knowing full well how this adminstration operates when challenged, and showed that his loyalty is to the American people and not the crazies that currently occupy the White House.
And then what happened? oh, the tough guys in the White house went after his wife. A career CIA agent that has spent her whole life serving this nation in a very dangerous occupation. Do you think Wilson had a right to be angry? Do you think Wilson was within his rights at this point to go after the scum in the administration? If he didn’t I’d have little respect for him.
Thank you Joe Wilson. Thank you Valerie Wilson. You have given the whole country the opportunity to peek behind the curtain and see what charletans, liars, and despicable people we currently have running our government.
The Wilson’s aren’t “left wing” heros, they are American heros.
The Disenfranchised Voter
I fail to see how Galloway’s comments are a bad thing?
The only way one could view his comments on perjury as bad is if they are a Republican who thinks Coleman is full of shit and Galloway just called him on it.
Which, more than likely, is the case.
DougJ
I thought lying under oath was no big deal, just a technicality. Maybe Galloway just got tripped in his recollections, the same way Rove and Libby did. Isn’t it wrong to go after him on a technicality rather than for what he was originally charged with? The Senate is clearly filled with moralistic, vile, overzealous prosecutors.
Davebo
Dougj
Regardless of whether or not one thinks perjury is a big deal, slander is a definate legal liability.
And if Norm decides to shutup rather than put up, which seems likely, he’s gonna have a serious liability in that area.
slide
you must have a contract in perpetuity if you are suggesting page views do not matter one bit.
Mac Buckets
You forgot to mention how much he lied.
Davebo
I wonder if John added an out clause to his contract in the event of the prosecution of one of the parties to it?
Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our own society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity, which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. Seeing America undo traditional societies, they fear us, for they do not wish to be undone. They cannot feel secure so long as we are there, for our very existenceāour existence, not our politicsāthreatens their legitimacy. They must attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission.
Talk about lying down with dogs and fleas…
slide
RND talking point 236. Totaly debunked by those of us that live in the Reality Based world.
slide
RND = RNC
Davebo
Lets be real here.
If Galloway managed to kill Vince Foster and not face charges what are the odds of him going down on a lousy perjury charge?
Defense Guy
So you are saying that the report he gave to the CIA is in line with what he wrote in the NY Times, even though the CIA says otherwise?
slide
yes
DougJ
Solid.
Mac Buckets
I get it. Reality + Moonbat Spin + Revisionist History = Reality-Based.
Nice talking point, but try harder next time.
Defense Guy
slide
Just leaving out the uncomfortable words is not the same as actually answering the question.
slide
So, let me get this straight, Iraq does have a nuclear program requiring yellowcake?
I just dont get your arguments? They are really completely illogical. Why would Iraq be trying to purchase yellowcake at this time? The Iraq Survey Group which spent months and months in Iraq, with hundrends and hudreds of analysists, with total access to all documents and individuals in Iraq CONCLUDED that Iraq had NO NUCLEAR PROGRAM. NONE. ZERO. NOTHING SINCE 1992. Jesus Christ your rigin wingnuts just are so fucking unbelievable. Aren’t you embarassed to have been so hood winked by your administration? I know it must be humiliating to have believed them but why do you persist in demonstration your complete subservience to their lies and distortions. Don’t you have any pride at all?
Blue Neponset
If Joe Wilson were the spawn of the Devil it still wouldn’t be OK to tell a reporter his wife works for the CIA in order to discredit him, and it also wouldn’t be OK to lie to a grand jury about it. I can’t understand why the Repubs didn’t just debunk Wilson’s op-ed instead of attacking him. Could it be that they knew Wilson was correct?
Arguing about Joe Wilson is typical Repub propaganda. It distracts people from the real issue and it is suppose to put those of us on the Left on the defensive.
To all those attacking Joe Wilson I ask: How did anything Joe Wilson said or did justify Cheney, Rove & Libby’s outing of his wife and then lying about it to the grand jury?
Mac Buckets
Defense Guy,
Not many people know this, but Joe Wilson is a time-travelling superhero. That’s how he was able to say truthfully that he had “debunked” the forged Italian documents that he hadn’t seen yet.
slide
Defense Guy you want words? Ok, here are words but I doubt it will change the mind of any Kool-aid drinkers like yourself as the facts seem to be irrelevant to you.
.
Mac Buckets
Why do you feel the need to change the subject, Joe? We’re talking about Wilson lying in his statements. We can discuss the other stuff later.
Defense Guy
Mac Buckets
I know. The bastard stole my time machine and when I try to get it back he pops back in time to buy me shots so that I am too hungover to do anything about it.
I really don’t like that guy, although the free drinks are nice.
Defense Guy
slide
Got a source for that?
Mac Buckets
A similar quesiton would be: Why did Joe Wilson feel the need to lie about the forged docs and how he came to get the Niger gig, if he knew he was correct?
slide
oh.. and by the way…. some interesting news coming out of Italy about those forged documents.
To recap. The Italians were trying to get the KNOWN forged documents into the mix. The CIA won’t buy it. But, Steven Hadley apparently had no problem with FORGED DOCUMENTS as long as it bolstered their case to go to war. This whole thing is going to blow wide open my friends.
Blue Neponset
From John’s original post:
From MacBuckets:
Stop walking into this Repub trap my fellow Lefties.
Mac Buckets
Wilson uses a time machine? How lame. All this time, I thought he was like one of those X-Men mutants. I am so disillusioned — it’s like finding out Doug Henning wasn’t really magic.
At least you still have the GOP Weather Control Machine, right? That oughtta come in handy.
DougJ
DG, what do you think of the possibility of Cheney stepping down? I’m curious. (Mac, I’m not curious about you will say, because your reply will probably involve blaming Vince Foster’s death on Joe Wilson)
slide
DIVERSION 101: From the ROVE PLAYBOOK.
Attack the messenger. Attack WILSON for bringing to light the lies and deception for going to war. Attack RICHARD CLARKE to tellign the world how unconcerned the Bush team was about terrorism prior to 911. Attack PAUL O’NEIL for revealing that the bush boys wanted to invade Iraq prior to 911.
Good luck guys and gals, dont’ think its going to work. And if I were you, I would not be bringing up lying so often when it seems that ROVE and LIBBY are about to be indicted for PERJURY. Lol
Blue Neponset
It seems pretty easy to me to debunk a big lie like the one you accuse Wilson of writing. If Cheney, Libby and Rove had the goods on him why didn’t they attack his argument? If Wilson was spreading lies to the American public shouldn’t our elected officials attempt to rebuke those lies?
DougJ
And where were Al Gore and Sean Penn during all of this? Surely, if Al Gore could get a plane to get his fat cat friends out of New Orleans, he could have chartered a flight to Niger and checked out these claims himself?
Defense Guy
Not knowing whats coming from Fitz, this speculation might be a bit early. If he is indicted, then I would say he should. My guess is that he won’t be, nor do I think he should step down for the actions of any of his underlings.
As to the Vince Foster issue, my money is evenly split on Nancy Pelosi and David Hasselhoff (the German connection).
Mac Buckets
Slide, that doesn’t make much sense. The case for the uranium buy had already been made before the forged docs were ever given to the US. As both the Butler Report and the Senate Intelligence Committee pointed out, the forged documents were not used to make the case. They weren’t needed to “validate their claims about an Iraqi nuclear program,” nor were they needed to make a case for the war. The forged docs didn’t even stand much scrutiny — State and CIA evidently recognized the forgery almost immediately. So the forgeries were useless.
So Pollari may have “discussed” the forged documents with Hadley. Maybe about how poor they were. Your last two sentences come from nothing.
If you think something is breaking wide open out of this, you are more delusional than usual. The forged docs are a footnote to a 16-word footnote (which was found in two investigations to be “well-founded”), not a lede.
Mac Buckets
Foul!
DougJ
I like your style, DG.
I’m beginning to think Larry Wilkerson and Brent Scowcroft were in it, myself.
DougJ
Guilty as charged. Every now and then, it’s fun to take a cheap shot.
Bob In Pacifica
Good timing to foist charges against Galloway, but it didn’t even dent the SF Chron this a.m. And my guess is that since at least some of the charges seem to be identical to the stuff thrown at Galloway (for which the libel court in Britain gave him 150,000 pounds), and since this particular group of Republicans are noted for FORGING documents to advance their goals, let’s just say that I will wait for a neutral examination of the documents. As for the witnesses, I can’t wait for Aziz to get to the witness stand. And, as always, let’s see round two of Galloway versus Coleman.
As an aside, John Cole, how come you don’t preface every mention of Bush, Cheney et al as “lying sack of shit”? It seems we’re a lot closer to perjury indictments on this side of the pond.
Defense Guy
Source
While the source is an op-ed, The bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report is not.
Mac Buckets
So we can’t point out the lies Wilson told, because that’s attacking the messenger? No, that’s literally attacking the message, Joe.
I recognized immediately WHINING 101 from the CARVILLE PLAYBOOK. Whine that every attack is mean and personal, even when it’s not.
Defense Guy
Thanks DougJ. No one ever looked into the Hasselhoff connection, which is a shame, because it would be revealing. Not as revealing as this, however.
slide
Mac buckets I’m not going to go on and on with a a Kool-aid drinker. If you are REALLY interested in the significance of the forged documents you can read this. But, I imagine you prefer believing what you want to believe.
slide
Mac this is no longer about Wilson as much as you would like it to be. This is about the lying scum in the white house that sent our brave men and women to war on lies, cherry picked intel, and deception. Why all the lies if they were just refuting a wrong story? Why didn’t they come out and say Wilson was wrong because of a, b and c? Why are they lying about who told whom what? Why did Scotty lie to the american people when he said it was “ridiculous” to think rove and libby were involved in leaking Plames identity? Why is Judy Millers’ memory so bad all of a sudden? Why is Rove’s memory so bad all of a sudden? Why is Libby’s memory so bad all of a sudden.
Wake up my friend.
DougJ
Tell me that’s not your main source of news. It must be the worst paper of any major city. By far.
Blue Neponset
Joe Wilson is peripheral to this whole thing and arguing about what he said or didn’t say does not add anything to the discussion of the actual issue which is “the WH response to Joe Wilson’s op-ed piece”. The Department of Justice didn’t assign a special counsel to look into Joe Wilson’s editorial.
DougJ
In fairness, to the senate, Galloway had a horrible day Sunday. He dropped three passes.
Gratefulcub
The worse it gets for the right, the more we hear about Sheehan. If the right talked about Sheehan as much as the left does, she would disappear.
I can’t wait for the attack on Fitzgerald. That moralistic SOB.
Gratefulcub
How are they going to attack that old crotchety hero of the left, Snowcroft? Wilkerson has obviously gone start raving mad, and he is probably working on the 08 Kerry campaign. Maybe they will shoot the moon and attack Papa Bush. “If he wasn’t such a wuss, he would have finished the job in 91!”
slide
Oh, its already starting out there. Tucker Carlson has been attacking Fitz for leaking. Leaking? lol… That is the one thing I thought you couldn’t attack Fitz on but hey we know how the right wingers don’t care about the truth. Then we had Mort Kondracki the other day say, “we may have an out of control prosecuter here”. But, for the most part they are holding their fire until they know if there are indictments or not. No sense pissing him off beforehand now is there?
Unfortunatly for them Fitz is going to be a hard target to attack. Very apolitical it seems. Impeccable. No agenda. But, that never stopped the right wing smear machine before.
Faux News
I’m very disturbed that NO ONE on Team RNC in this thread has even MENTIONED Hillary Clinton yet. Get with the program guys! See page 2 paragraph 3 in your “RNC Handbook for Internet BB Discussions”.
Defense Guy
Hillary Clinton!! I expect my check will be deposited in the usual place.
Faux News
Noted. Thank you! Expect the electronic deposit to your account within 48 hours :-)
DougJ
You’d almost have to respect them if they did that. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hitchens do it, but I don’t think the Fox News crowd has the guts, or, since this is Hitchens maybe I should say the blood-alcohol content, to do it.
(DG and Mac: I’m not calling you guys the Fox News crowd here)
Ancient Purple
It has already begun… in earnest.
Fitzgerald is now:
1) Overzealous.
2) A partisan.
3) Only going for perjury because he doesn’t really have anything else.
Does anyone else remember when Ken Melhman, the toady/shill/flunky of the RNC, refused to state to Russert on MTP that the RNC would not attack Fitzgerald?
Now we know why.
Mac Buckets
No, that’s just one of the lies that Galloway threw around last time he was in our country. The charge that saw him paid in Britain was for an alleged straight cash bribe of Ā£375K. It had nothing to do with the oil-futures charges. Galloway, of course, knew this, but that didn’t stop him from lying about it in front of the Senate.
Ian L
a member of the left of the muddle says…
Im absolutely surprised and utterly mystified that (so far anyways) the left has said nary a word about that HACK “gorgeous” George Galloway. It would seem that sites and articles eminating from what is generally classified as “right wing” are the only sources interested in Galloway’s perjury.
Thanks John for doing what you do. I really enjoy your opinion, even if I dont give a shit about football, and alternately dont always agree with you politically.
slide
Its all going to crumble for the White House
Read more
Retief
Some people like to go on and on about Joe Wilson’s supposed lies because that helps them avoid any discussion of the truth of his central claim. We knew at the time his oped was written that the Niger uranium connection was a load of old codswallop, have found neither uranium from Niger nor any active nuclear program in Iraq, nor any evidence of any attempt in any Iraqi records to make such a purchase. Joe Wilson claimed that not only did the world know that by then, but that he had told the administration, via the CIA, that such a claim was a silly fantasy after they sent him, promted by Cheney, to Niger, where he found such a sale would be impossible. Before he went the CIA thought the story was bunk and indeed his report did not change their assessments. Remember that this whole thing was sparked by the infamous 16 words in the state of the union. When Bush said that the British say that Saddam is seeking uranium in Africa, he knew, or should have know at the very least because of Wilson’s report, that Saddam wasn’t seeking Uranium in Niger, and that even if he did there was no chance of obtaining it. Now Bush gets off on a technicallty. The British did say that. Even though Bush knew at the time that what the British said was not true, it is true thatt he said it. Which leaves him being massively dishonest and misleading but not outright lying in the SOTU. And about none of that can anybody call anything Joe Wilson said a lie.
KB
So is the ‘new’ evidence against galloway any better than the evidence the senate committee presented last time out ?
If memory serves their evidence then consisted of
a) A crudely forged document.
b) An anonymous source
c) A man who was being held incommunicado in Abu Gharid , where no doubt various ‘bad apples’ of the US military were ‘helping’ him finger galloway.
In the US that sort of evidence might be considered enough to start a war, outside the US it wouldn’t convict a dog.
Galloway is lefty riffraff but lets have some real evidence this time out.
Mac Buckets
Obviously, I don’t mind dealing with your flavor of Kool-aid drinker as much.
Your link has the same basic fault that your post did. It assumes that the obviously forged documents had some key use in the formation of the case for war, or at least the case for the Iraq-Niger link, and that’s just not true, according to the Senate and the Butler Report.
But I imagine you prefer believing what you want to believe.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Unfortunately, the State Department agreed with Wilson’s assertions.
Mac Buckets
You know, you really should attempt to prove some of that stuff sometime, instead of just regurgitating.
First of all, you are assuming “all the lies.” Secondly, I have no idea why they’d take the “his wife at the CIA sent him” tack, when it was so much easier just to show that Wilson was a bumbler and a liar. I never said that politicians were tremendously clever — hell, Nixon resigned over a campaign trick in a race he was winning by 25 points!
But again, the reverse question is just as valid: If Joe Wilson was correct, then why didn’t he just lay the facts out instead of lying through his teeth about “debunking” documents he couldn’t have seen and on his wife’s role in getting him the gig?
Gratefulcub
Obviously Fitzgerald is a partisan liberal. He believes we should fight terrorism as a police operation, instead of militarily. For proof, I offer you this: He indicted Osama bin Laden. Ooooh, indictments, that will really scare a madman. And he is Irish, so he must be drunk.
slide
Mac Buckets again, if you REALLY want to know the answer to your questions you can read this very very comprehensive analysis of the forged documents, their significance, and how Wilson’s trip debunked their claims. It is way to long a story to go into here, but as you will see the above analysis is sourced with many many links to the actual Senate report and their findings that you and Steven Hayes have grevious bastardized for partisan purposes.
Happy reading.
ppGaz
Easy, Andrei. I didn’t say he was doing it for money.
Why a blogger wants churn …. that’s between him, and his maker, so to speak. But there is no doubt that churn is preferred over “reasoned discourse” or whatever horseshit thing is the supposed alternative. Somebody who wants reasonable conversation about, say, Iraq, doesn’t do gratuitous Sheehan threads all the time. The war , just for one example, is not about Sheehan. It’s not about Joe Wilson, either. (It isn’t about “the world better off without Saddam,” either. That’s why we didn’t go to war for that reason).
I think it’s very likely that we will all find out what the war was really about, very soon. And then, some bloggers will devise the necessary strategies for not talking about that.
Others will talk about it. The ones who won’t will sit by and make fun of the ones who will.
Gratefulcub
Please show me some left wing praise, before you attack the left for not caring about him now. I have only heard of Galloway from Balloon Juice, Sully, and his 15 minutes in front of the senate. I don’t even know what he has had to say. I certainly don’t care about him. And i spend way too much time reading this trash, so it isn’t from lack of exposure to political opining.
Krista
I think Blue Neponset has it right, everybody. Whether you think Joe Wilson is a lying attention-whore or a brave man standing up for the truth, it doesn’t really matter. There is NO EXCUSE – EVER, for compromising a CIA agent and his/her network, especially during wartime. It’s disgusting, it’s appalling, and it really shows that for all the talk about keeping America safe, your government cares more about protecting their own asses than yours. Why is everybody not outraged about this?
Defense Guy
I’m saving my outrage for a rainy day, or at least until we get the word from Fitz on what laws (if any) were broken.
slide
Mac Buckets:
That is just facutally incorrect. From the Senate report YOU keep referring to:
Also this from the Senate report:
You know it really is tiresome having the right just makes stuff up, then it gets repeated and repeated in the right wing echo chambers as if it were true.
CaseyL
Y’know, if Cheney and Libby plotted to out Plame before Wilson even wrote that Op-Ed piece – as seems possible, given the latest disclosures – the “Wilson Lied!” meme is even lamer than ever.
If Cheney and Libby plotted to out Plame before Wilson even wrote that Op-Ed piece – as seems possible, given the latest disclosures – then what twisted their tails was Wilson’s getting anywhere near the Niger forgeries. They didn’t want the forgeries to be talked about, mentioned, or examined – not until the war was a done deal.
The news coming out of Italy is that the forgeries were probably cooked up by an element of Italian intelligence working hand-in-glove with the at least one US neocon who was a major league propagandist for war with Iraq: Michael Ledeen.
So the question isn’t whether Wilson lied about seeing the forgeries. The question is why the Bush Admin went apesh*t over just the possibility that Wilson would mention the forgeries, and did so while Wilson was still trying to get someone in the Administration to listen to him, a month before his Op-Ed was published.
And the only explanation that comes to mind is that WHIG knew about the forgeries, and knew they were forgeries, and knew who had created the forgeries… and still used the forgeries as a major selling point in their marketing of the war.
In other words: WHIG commissioned the forgeries.
And that puts the final seal on the question of whether the Bush Admin lied, knowingly and deliberately, about a cause for war.
slide
I repeat what I said earlier, the whole thing is going to unravel for the white house. This is going to make Watergate look like a third rate burglary for real.
Gratefulcub
WHIG
Office of special plans
Niger Forgeries
CIA v Cheney
Public statements that are obviously false
flipping aides that have decided not to fall on their swords
this admin’s mo of attacking personally anyone that dissented
pay reporters to tell their story
creating fake news reports and sending them to local stations
Judy Miller being a direct conduit from WHIG to you on the front page of our leading newspaper
The list goes on and on. At 70% approval, it was all ignored. at 40% we are starting to see some of it surface.
With everyone under oath, and approval ratings sinking into the low 30s, it is not going to be pretty.
Oh yeah, Frist, Delay, Abramoff, Sefavian. Miers. Cronyism, that still hasn’t stopped.
2000 dead. Civil war.
The perfect storm. I thought i was going to enjoy it all, but I was wrong. I’m scared. I’m ashamed. Not the shame one feels from knowing the prez got a blow job, but real, to the core shame about what has become of our grand experiment.
Blue Neponset
Excellent point Gratefulcub. I still harbor a sliver of hope that I am wrong about Dubya and his cronies. It isn’t enjoyable to have your belief that the President and his administration are a pack of liars who think the ends justify the means proven true.
slide
Just think about the forgeries for a moment. Who would forge documents which try and make people believe Iraq was trying to purchase uranium from Niger? You know my being a cop for many years always makes me want to look at motivation. Who whould have such a motive? Doesn’t seem like there would be any financial bennefit from such forgeries. The only reason would be the create a FALSE reason to go to war. Chalabi and the Bush White house. Anyone else?
now the question is did the White house or any of their surrogates have ANYTHING to do with those forgeries? Don’t know for sure but methinks that is what the White house is so afraid of. We NOW know that Hadley was involved. Getting closer and closer.
Just think of the ramifications if it is found out that the White House was somehow complicit in forged documents which formed the basis of convincing americans to go to a war? And a war that is growingly unpopular.
My OPINION. The attacks on Wilson were designed to end any further inquiry into the forged documents. Ironically that may have backfired rather badly wouldn’t you say?
Gratefulcub
slide,
According to Laura Rosen, who has been good on this issue:
Italy’s motivation for producing the forgeries was to elevate their prestige level on the international intelligence scene. They knew the white house wanted some nuclear evidence.
The forger’s motive was money, from SISMI.
Gratefulcub
Slide,
I wasn’t exonerating the WH. It is perfectly possible that Hadley had a hand in it, we will see.
I don’t know. It is easier to take than: our intelligence and government is so incompetent that they actually believed that Iraq was going nuclear and we had to attack and remove saddam quickly to stop a grave and growing threat that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud or from an unmanned aerial vehicle loaded with anthrax flown from Iraq to NYC, or Topeka Kansas.
I would rather them be lying sacks, than for them to be as scared as they were trying to make us.
slide
yes, the person that physically forged the documents may have done it for money, but you are saying that a country, Italy, would forge fake documents to elevate their prestige? That doesnt’ sound very likely at all to me. Kevin Drum has some interesting speculation on this:
.
slide
You know I agree with what has been said here. This whole thing does not fill me with joy. Yes, I am glad that the lies and corruption of the Bush administration will be exposed but this does grievous harm to the USA. I am ashamed for my country. I am ashamed for our news media. I am ashamed that our government is acting more like a bananna republic than the beacon of shining democracy that we should stand for.
Gratefulcub
Slide,
not my theory, I don’t pretend to have one. it is laura rosen, at the prospect, writing about the italian article.
I think we can agree, and rosen and drum can agree, on one thing. We don’t know nothing yet.
Blue Neponset
I would much rather have an honest, less competent person working for me than a lying, competent one. Once I realize someone is less competent than I had hoped I can always train that person to perform his/her duties better. Once I realize someone has lied to me I usually fire them. I can forgive and forget a mistake but I can’t forgive or forget a bald faced lie.
Gratefulcub
Blue,
I agree, I was just saying that the level of incompetence it would take for this administration to be honest is almost as scary as them being the scoundrels they are.
Slide,
I think drum is onto something though, they knew the docs were forged. That is why they reacted as they did.
On another note, why did they do and say so many things early in the lead investigation that were flat out stupid? the best answer I have heard is: they didn’t think there would be a real investigation. They thought Ashcroft would take care of it, so they were already on the record with investigators and the media before they realized they should tell the truth.
RA
If there is any justice in this probe Wilson will do jail time for his lies and deception. He and his wife have broken the Hatch Act, denying government employees the ability to act as political hacks.
Cindy Sheehans bus needs a rocket propelled grenade.
ppGaz
RA = DougJ.
Unfamiliar handle and really, really idiotic wingnuttery, the two hallmarks of the DougJ spoof.
DougJ is now down to 900 millibars.
DougJ
I’m not RA. I think I’ve spawned imitators.
Kimmitt
Hey, I agree with Galloway for once — Senator Coleman should put up or shut up.
DougJ
RA is good, though. I’m not insulted as I was when you thought I was goonie bird.
p.lukasiak
Consider this an open flame war thread.
Translation: I’m a right-wing asshole who can’t help myself. But to hide the fact that I’m an asshole, I’m going to call this an open flame war thread — that way, when people demonstrate what an asshole I am, I can shrug it off as “flame war” nonsense….
Blue Neponset
Why are you participating in John’s blog if you think he is an asshole?
ppGaz
Har! Because he asked us to?
Besides, why are we participating when he thinks a lot of us are assholes? Is assholeness a disqualifier all of a sudden?
What are John’s alternatives, really? Darrell?
Cordially,
(p)Rick
DougJ
I think it’s a little cheap to take pot shots at John on his own blog. If you have a problem with something specific he did — as I did with what seemed to me to be his FEMA apologism — say so, but just calling someone an asshole or a jerk or whatever in the comment section of his blog is bush league.
ppGaz
See, you could have taken that as a compliment. Bird is a truly unique character. He reminds me of Professor Irwin Corey.
ppGaz
Via the Internets.
Washington Note
People get ready
there’s a train a-comin’
Anticipation is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.
Krista
Well, it’s raining right now, so I’ll be outraged on your behalf. Hell, I’m not even American, and I’m outraged.
So, if most people on this blog are assholes, and if the blog is entitled “Balloon Juice” i.e. hot air…oh dear…this blog is hot air from a bunch of assholes.
Ewwww…
Mac Buckets
Yes, we all know the CIA said that, but we also know that doesn’t make it fact. I remember that both the Senate Intel Committee Report (which I can’t find online — where’s your link from?) and the Butler Report said that the Niger claim couldn’t have been based on the forged documents that only came into our hands AFTER the case regarding the Iraqi-Niger connection had been made.
Factcheck.org backs me up:
The British didn’t see the fakes until after the SOTU speech, so how could they have been the basis for their intel quoted by Bush in that same speech? Answer: It couldn’t have been.
So stop whining about the right always “making stuff up.” It makes you sound like a 6-year-old girl.
Sojourner
RA is only occasionally good. S/he lacks the consistency and staying power of DougJ.
But I’m biased. I think DougJ is hot.
Slide
Mac Buckets with some more disinformation:
No, they didn’t see the “fakes” as you call the forged documents but they saw a summary of what the documents alleged from the Italians. Again you are misleading. The British intelligence was based on THE SAME FORGED DOCUMENTS. Read for yourself the analysis but here is a snippet:
The facts are so inconvenient aren’t they?
Bob In Pacifica
DougJ, The SF Chronic is the local paper. I read it to find out who’s on the disabled list for the Niners. And I know the joke in “All The President’s Men.” I can’t say that there’s any newspaper I rely on
Mac B, I presume that there will be more information regarding the charges Coleman’s making against Galloway. We know the mutual hostility, and we know how poorly Coleman handled himself in the face-to-face. Unlike what Mr. Cole would like to presume, a lot of us don’t necessarily look to any politician as a hero.
DougJ
The Chronicle has an excellent food section, by far the best in the country. And their coverage of the Niners is outstanding. Boy, there’s no news in there, though.
Rev. Gas Money
Re: Galloway
I think this is a great idea. Bring Galloway back over here and see what he’s got to say about that whole Oil-for-Food scandal thing, or maybe the $9 billion of missing Iraqi reconstruction funds. I’m sure many, many American’s would be very interested in some of the details. I know I am. So let’s all write to our congressman and woman and demand that Mr. Galloway be broght up on Perjury charges.
PS. WARNING! I am quite liberal, and this is a trick. Please don’t do this. A two-party system requires the second party, and the second party is fading fast enough as it is.
HH
Thank God we have moonbat blogs to combat silly things like Senate Intel Committees and reports by Lords.
HH
Right wing loonies like Senator Levin are not to be trusted…
p.lukasiak
If you have a problem with something specific he didāas I did with what seemed to me to be his FEMA apologismāsay so, but just calling someone an asshole or a jerk or whatever in the comment section of his blog is bush league.
I have a problem with his childish insistence on taking pot shots at liberals in threads that he declares to be “flame” thread….
oh, and btw….
calling some I did “bush” league is about as low as you can go, IMHO… :)
kl
Bill Burkett.
Mac Buckets
I’m funny this way, but I’ll take the Senate and Parliament’s official reports over editorializing by Josh Marshall. Man, save some Kool-Aid for the next moonbat!
Bruce Moomaw
Blue Neponset has homed in on the central point: if the White House had the goods on Wilson for lying in his NYT piece about the contents of his original report — as the Senate Intelligence Committee flatly claims he did — then why the hell didn’t they simply expose him as having done so, instead of trying to smear him by outing his wife? Two possible theories:
(1) Kevin Drum is right, and the White House was terrified that he had additional information that the White House knew well before Bush’s SOTU address that the Yellowcake Papers were forgeries.
(2) Wilson and Plame were both just collateral damage in the White House’s continuing and very energetic efforts at the time to represent the CIA itself as a bunch of unreliable peaceniks falsely denying true evidence that Saddam had an active nuclear program, and therefore willing to do stupid things like choose Wilson on the advice of his wife. (You know: the same CIA that the Intelligence Committee later called a bunch of vicious hawks who falsely led the peace-loving White House into a badly chosen war.)