SCOTUS punts on an abortion decision:
The Supreme Court ruled unanimously Wednesday that a lower court was wrong to strike down New Hampshire abortion restrictions, steering clear of a major ruling on they placed an undue burden on women.
The opinion was written by retiring Justice Sandra Day O’Connor, a key swing voter at the court on abortion rights.
Justices said a lower court went too far by permanently blocking the law that requires a parent to be told before a daughter ends her pregnancy.
An appeals court must now reconsider the law, which requires that a parent be informed 48 hours before a minor child has an abortion but makes no exception for a medical emergency that threatens the youth’s health.
In what may be O’Connor’s last ruling of her career, she said “in this case, the courts below chose the most blunt remedy.”
As with all things law-related, there is a good chance that I am completely wrong about this. However, from my understanding of the reports I have just seen and heard, it appears to me that this was Sandra Day O’Connor’s middle-finger salute to everyone as she exits stage left, in essence stating- “Sure, I created the ‘undue burden’ standard. But it isn’t my job to figure out how to make it work.”
Also, if I remember correctly, this was the ruling that was the focus of this excellent Frontline, “The Last abortion Clinic.”
Paul L.
Health is the oceanliner sized loophole that the “reproductive rights” crowd uses to invalidate all laws on abortion.
It includes mental health. So if the abortion doctor can get a psychiatrist to say that not having a abortion will effect the mental health of the mother, it renders any law null and void.
Mr Furious
What a cop-out.
Wonder if this will dampen any of the O’Connor-worship we’re hearing from the Left these days. O’Connor is the architect of the undue burden standard and she just sold every minor in New Hampshire (and beyond) out with this punt.
Maybe Congress can pass a law requiring all medical emergencies to come with a 48-hour safety margin.
SoCalJustice
Here’s the opinion:
Ayotte v. Planned Parenthood of Northern New England (pdf)
Mr Furious
Yeah, health is nothing but a fucking loophole. And there’s no such thing as a valid mental health concern either. Go back to your cave, Paul.
Paul L.
What is the mental health concern that is so dire that it requires the abortion right now and now in 48 hours?
“IF I DO NOT GET A ABORTION RIGHT NOW I’LL KILL MYSELF”
Crawl back under your rock, Mr Furious.
Lines
Can we have Paul aborted on mental health issues?
Its not your f-ing place to decide, Paul. Your little mind is incapable of determining what makes an abortion necessary or not, and its not your place to even make that decision. Get off your high horse and take care of your own.
Blue Neponset
It was a unanimous decision. I don’t think O’Connor should be singled out just because she wrote the decision.
Stormy70
I think a minor getting a major surgery should require the permission of her parents. There is no reason abortion, like other medical procedures for minors, should not require the permission from the parents. If the parent is sexually abusing the minor, then get the police involved, and have the minor removed from the home. At that point, getting an abortion is up to the minor, if that is the minor’s decision.
Lines
The Act wasn’t challenged on grounds of undue burden, so the decision couldn’t be based on undue burden. The only part of the act that was called unconstitutional was that there wasn’t a health excemption.
She could have thrown undue burden in there, but it wouldn’t have served much of a purpose and wouldn’t have had anything to do with it.
Steve
Any time there’s a 9-0 decision on an abortion case, it’s a good bet that no news was made.
All the Court said is “this statute has constitutional problems, New Hampshire even admits it has constitutional problems, but you can fix that without striking down the entire statute.”
Zifnab
It’s nice to know that in a country of political apology for ham-handed legislation, we can respond in kind with ham-handed court orders. Legislatures are trying to make it illegal-by-red-tape, thus circumventing the original Roe v. Wade decision. The courts, in turn, are obligated to both defend their original decisions (or look horribly inconsistant) and yet not exceed their bounds on authority. Can’t have them looking “activist” can we? So you get “undue burden” which is the polite way of saying “shove it Congress, Roe still stands in theory.”
The parental consent, spousal notification, 24-hour waiting period, and the host of other restrictions may frustrate a woman trying to get an abortion, but at the end of the day these measures are designed mostly as congressional feel-good laws and electable issues. I don’t know anyone who’s reconsidered an abortion because it’s just too damn inconvenient. But I have heard enough stories of babies left in garbage cans.
demimondian
Unfortunately, your phrasing shows why this isn’t a sound argument.
Suppose I said “I don’t know anyone who’s left a baby in a garbage can, but I have heard enough stories of people who’ve been unable to get abortions because it was inpossibly inconvenient.” That wouldn’t make the stories of babies in garbage cans false, and it also wouldn’t make the stories of unreasonable barriers true.
Stormy70
What has this to do with abortion? Lots of times it is being done by college kids with all kinds of alternatives available to them. Some people are just scummy. There is free birth control out there, as well as a 9 month period before a baby is born to get off your ass and figure something out. Lots of communities now have rules in place that let you drop your baby off at a hospital with no questions asked. Women who abandon their newborns in trash cans are the scum of the earth.
Paul L.
Lines I am not deciding who gets an abortion.
It is you who does not want parents and spouses involved in that decision?
Do you support Safe Haven Legislation?
You know some states allow a mother to “drop off” a unwanted baby.
http://www.robynsnest.com/statesafehaven.htm
Abortion: the only thing that democrats do not want to regulate.
Lines
When parents and spouses create an undue burden upon a woman, no, they have no business being involved. American’s have the right to privacy and an arbitrary age boundary shouldn’t suddenly just grant that right.
Lines
And Paul, by declaring that no mental health issue could ever exist that would validate an abortion, you have stated that you are making that decision, even though you arn’t a doctor and have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.
And you can take your political generalizations and shove them up your ass. They arn’t welcome here.
Steve
Not having an exception to the waiting period when the minor’s health is at risk is simply inhumane. Yes, a few people might use the health exception to game the system. But that hardly justifies risking the health of those who have legitimate medical emergencies by eliminating the health exception altogether.
Blue Neponset
I hate to side with the Righties on this, but if the Gov’t can prevent minors from getting a tattoo without their parents approval why should they allow minors to get an abortion without the parents approval?
Mr Furious
Speak for yourself, jackass. Certainly not for this or any other Democrat. I am not opposed to reasonable restrictions on abortion, particularly in the case of minors. But ONLY if sufficient safeguards are built in to the system. A minor needs an alternative to parental notification (say, ability to appeal to a judge) and an allowance for the health of the mother—48 hours and medical emergency are mutually exclusive phrases.
Lines
So Blue, are you trying to make the case that minors should be able to get tattoos? Because I’ll sign on to that as well.
If you’re trying to say that the tattoo thing is correct, then we have a disagreement.
I’m not saying I want teens to get tattoos or abortions, I’m just pointing out that an arbitrary age of 18 is going to be challengable in the near future. How many 22 year olds are immature and stuck in junior high while there are some incredibly mature 14 year olds that can run businesses and make decisions for themselves. Arbitrary age is a pretty lame way to decide who is capable and who isn’t.
Stormy70
Arbitrary age barrier? So it is ok for a much older man to have sex with a 13 or 14 year old, if she wants to keep it private? Balderdash! Then if she gets pregnant, he can throw $300 dollars at her to take care of it, all without the parents knowledge. Predatory men must love this arbitrary age business creeping into the abortion debate.
Paul L.
How about life of the mother instead of the health exception?
Lines, are you crushing my dissent?
Free Speech for me not thee.
Stormy70
Left or right, most people agree there should be some restrictions on abortion when minors are involved. I would call this the common sense factor. I think the Supreme Court opened the door for common sense regulation when they sent it back and told the lower court to specify which part of the law was unconstitutional.
I mean if a minor can have an abortion, surely they can light up afterwards. They shouldn’t be told they can’t smoke if they have the ability to make such weighty decisions on their own, like whether or not to have an abortion.
Blue Neponset
Lines,
If you have an alternative to arbitrary age limitations for tattoos, cigarettes, driver’s licences, and abortions I would like to hear it. Age limitations aren’t meant to be fair, they are used because they can be applied w/o using subjective criteria.
Mr Furious
You’re right! When my daughter decides to save up for and undergo an unnecessary heart bypass, I hope there’s a protocol in place to let me know first… Thanks for looking out for me.
The Other Steve
Frankly, I don’t think abortion should be any different from any other medical procedure. If a kid comes into the hospital with a broken arm, and it’s because his father beat him with a hammer… we don’t notify the father before we fix ’em up.
In other words. This is a case where conservatives promote divisiveness where there otherwise would be a wonderful bill written up with nice compromises that makes for good law.
That’s really all O’Connor was saying, and it’s up to the moonbats to act like adults.
Lines
You arn’t dissenting, Paul, you’re just trolling. Your painting of Democrats with a broad brush is a sign that your mental capacities are lacking and your abilities to debate and discuss are non-existant.
The Other Steve
It’s impossible to debate abortion with conservatives, because they are unreasonable.
Blue Neponset
What if a child saved up to get plastic surgery? Would that be ok?
Lines
The only compromise to my argument against arbitrary age restrictions would be my acceptance of the judicial bypass. My fear is that judicial bypass is itself an undue burden, and as we’ve all seen, no Judge is impartial. I have yet to come up with a solution, but that doesn’t mean one can’t be found in the near future.
Steve
What about it? Are you saying that any health concern short of actually having your life endangered doesn’t count for anything? I can’t agree with that.
Doctors put their licenses on the line if they falsely certify that a minor has a health emergency warranting an exception to the waiting period. That’s a strong incentive for doctors not to cooperate with attempts to game the system with false claims of health issues.
Plenty of people commit Medicare fraud, but we don’t get rid of Medicare because of it. And just because a few people will improperly use the health exception to get out of the notification requirement doesn’t justify eliminating the health exception altogether.
Ancient Purple
Ah, another nutbag that has no understanding of the basics of mental health.
No wonder we can’t get a Mental Health Parity law out of Congress.
Lines
Whats the matter, Paul L? Cat got your tongue? Back up your assertion that mental health can’t be a bypass for the health excemption or you lose what little credibility you have.
You arn’t a psychologist, and my guess is that you have no first hand knowledge of psychiatry other than you’re a loon with a big head that took a 101 Psych class.
When you’ve spent time working with the mentally ill, with the imbalanced amongst society, when you’ve dealt with the hormonal imbalances in a pregnant bi-polar, then maybe you can start to impart your opinion on other people. Otherwise you’re just a right-wing ass thats looking to squash any method by which women can get an abortion without being called a “whore” by brown shirted anti-abortionists like yourself.
Paul L.
Lines is the judge of what is dissent and trolling. i.e. Some people are more equal than other?
Lines also demonstrates superior intellect and debating skill by using personal attacks.
And Lines, I am sure that the painting of republicans with a broad brush is a sign of how enlightened you are?
And Steve is against closing loopholes in any laws. Or just ones involving abortion.
And I guess by your logic we should not try to find and prosecute anyone who commits Medicare fraud or close loopholes that allow Medicare fraud.
John Cole
Lines- I will decide who is and who is not a troll around here, thank you very much.
Having said that, whenever I hear pro-life forces sneeringly dismiss health and mental health exceptions, I, for whatever reason, think of Tom Cruise bouncing up and down on Oprah’s couch while dismissing psychology and psychiatry and attacking Brooke Shields for her treatment of her post-partum depression.
Just sayin’.
Sojourner
Hmm. Let’s see. The minor is incapable of making a decision about having an abortion but is mature enough to carry a pregnancy to term.
Does anybody else find this argument laughable?
Paul L.
I have credibility? Funny, you do not have any credibility with me.
So if someone gets a note from a psychiatrist saying she will be “depressed” if she does have a abortion then all abortion laws do not apply to her.
The health excemption does not let a few people to “game” the law. It allows abortion providers to completely ignore any abortion laws.
Blue Neponset
I don’t think the argument is that the minor is incapable of making a decision. The argument is that parents need to be involved in that decision. Parental notification isn’t the same as parental approval.
Sojourner
Practically speaking, it is the same thing.
Lines
Paul, I still see nothing from you that would constitute discussion or discourse. I see no facts supporting your position that mental health is not an available health issue for a parental notification. You’ve given up nothing in facts and thrown in tons of useless talking points.
I doubt you can step up to the plate and use information as a debate tool, so why should anyone, particularly me, still attempt to engage you in discussion here?
Mr Furious
True enough. though it’s he next logical step. To the truly pro-life, notification ain’t good enough, and they won’t stop with that.
Blue Neponset
We disagree about that. I am sure the parents didn’t want the kid to have sex in the first place but somehow it happened dispite their disapproval.
Paul L.
Lines, you see talking points because you disagree with my facts but can not refute them.
Here is study that says having a abortion affects a mothers mental health negatively . So, by your logic to promote mental health we should ban abortions.
Of course you will ignore the study as pro-life propaganda
http://www.texlife.org/docs/mentalheath.html
Women’s Mental Health Declines After Abortion While Childbirth Helps: Two New Studies
Springfield, IL — Women who undergo abortions are at greater risk for mental health problems in subsequent years, according to a new study presented at the annual meeting of the American Psychological Society (APS) held this June (2000) in Miami Beach, Florida.
The study looked at California women who received state funded medical care and who either had an abortion or gave birth in 1989. Researchers examined the women’s medical records for up to six years afterwards and found that women who had undergone abortions had significantly higher mental health claims than women who had given birth. Women who had abortions were more than twice as likely to have two to nine treatments for mental health as were women who carried to term.
Ancient Purple
Forget it, Lines. It isn’t worth it.
I have met many people like Mr. L who have ZERO understanding of mental health issues. They say things like, “You need to cheer up!” to people with depression or “You need to get over it!” to people with Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. They even think that addiction is a choice.
If it can’t be wrapped in an ace bandage or treated with an anti-biotic, it isn’t a valid medical situation.
Best we pity him and other like him for their blatant ignorance.
Sojourner
OMG, are you seriously arguing that tired lie that abortion causes mental health problems? Reagan refused to release a study he had requested because it showed that women do just fine following an abortion.
This may surprise you but women are perfectly capable of making life-changing decisions without having a nervous breakdown.
I know it’s a shock but it really is true.
tzs
And what about the parents that will a) kick the young woman out of the house for having become pregnant at all b) force her to have the kid c) beat her up for having been a “slut”? How many parents are going to do the same for her having gotten a tattoo?
Unless you provide IN ADVANCE protection for cases like the above, all of this is just horsewash.
Sojourner
That article is pretty funny. It also makes the claim that:
Teen moms are more mentally stable than their non-parent peers? I’m sure that’s absolutely correct. After all, being a teen mom is absolutely the best thing a woman can do since it practically guarantees a life of financial struggle.
ROFLMAO.
The Other Steve
That seems like a study looking for a particular answer.
Women who are receiving state funded medical care have other problems. What those other problems are depends. They could simply be financial, they could be mental health related.
I could probably run a study that showed women who received state funding for medical care were more likely to have other problems than women who were received funding from private insurance.
I’ll not dispute that people who have to make the decision of abortion may not have mental after effects, but the same is also true of giving children up for adoption. The problem is, rather than helping… conservatives take joy at aggravating the mental health issues.
Krista
Exactly. Not everybody has understanding, 7th-Heaven-style parents. (Or realistic, school-nurse mothers like mine.) There are girls out there who are too scared to go on the pill, because they think their doctors will tell their parents, or because they’re worried that their parents will find their pills. And if these girls do get pregnant, they have a very realistic fear of being physically harmed, kicked out of the house, or confined until abortion is impossible.
Pro-lifers seem to have this odd opinion that people who get abortions do so very easily and with little thought. On the contrary, for the vast majority of women, it’s said to be one of the toughest decisions ever. I can only imagine the panic, the guilt, feeling conflicted, feeling angry, wondering “why me?”, scared that other people will find out, scared that your life is ruined and you’re trapped forever. Isn’t it enough of a heart-wrenching decision already, without having to add in the sheer terror of having to notify parents? Parents who, if you’re unlucky, are judgemental assholes who will make SURE that this baby ruins your life, if only to punish you for daring to be sexual?
Lines
Paul L: What facts did you provided in this thread other than a baseless
Which is so far off the mark of reality that its not a “fact”.
Including an article that we’ve all read and then read the peer analysis that stated that the study was biased to begin with doesn’t suddenly make your initial claims any more valid.
W.B. Reeves
So Parents should have the right to force a minor child to give birth? Her Majesty is breaking new ground. Anyone here up to date on the jurisprudence regarding forced breeding? Since the minor is obviously not competent to make adult choices she obviously isn’t competent to rear a child. So who gets the responsibility? The Grandparents? The State?
To raise another point. If parents get veto power over an abortion, do they likewise get veto power over the pregnancy? If a minor isn’t competent to choose abortion neither is she competent to choose childbirth. Do the parents get to dictate this choice as well?
Steve
Are you being intentionally dense? When you advocate getting rid of the health exemption, you’re not “closing a loophole,” you’re destroying the exemption altogether.
You’re just making up arguments at this point. Nowhere did I say we shouldn’t try to stop people from gaming the system of health exemptions. I just draw the line at eliminating the system altogether just because some people may try to game it.
Like I already said once, if a doctor falsely certifies that a health problem exists in order to help someone get around the law, they can lose their license. That’s a strong disincentive.
Krista
Ooo…good point. Childbirth could also be considered major surgery (C-sections definitely are, and are a strong possibility if you’ve got someone with a small pelvis, like many young women.) So would she need mommy and daddy’s permission to bear the baby? And what if they say no, and want her to get an abortion instead?
Blue Neponset
I am not a lawyer, but my guess is; yes, she would need the parents permission to have a c section. If it is legal for Christian Scientists to refuse life-saving, medical treatment for their children, why would there be a distinction between a C Section and an appendectomy?
I am sure there are some parents that would let their daughter die in order to prove a point, but I can’t imagine there are too many.
Paul L.
How is the statement baseless?
http://www.tinyvital.com/BlogArchives/000337.html
“Abortion Hypocrisy with Mental Health Loophole
A woman in the United States has a “right” to an abortion late in the pregnancy by asserting that having the child will harm her health. Usually, this is simply a ruse where the proposed “harm” is to her mental health. But it’s the law, as handed down by our betters at the Supreme Court.
The potential harm caused *by* the abortion to the prospective father’s mental health is ignored. There are many cases where a father has suffered great grief after an his child was aborted, with or without his consent. However, the father has absolutely no rights at all regarding abortion of his offspring.
Court rulings give no consideration to this issue. In particular, a father cannot prevent an abortion by claiming that it would cause him great suffering or damage his mental health, even as the mother is allowed to have the abortion strictly because she asserts that having the child would result in harm to her mental health.
The relevant case is Doe v. Bolton, which stated that:
“Medical judgment may be exercised in the light of all the factors–physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age–relevant to the well-being of the patient. All these factors may relate to health.”
and even worse:
3. The requirement that a physician’s decision to perform an abortion must rest upon “his best clinical judgment” of its necessity is not unconstitutionally vague, since that judgment may be made in the light of all the attendant circumstances. United States v. Vuitch, 402 U.S. 62, 71-72. Pp. 191-192 .
4. The three procedural conditions in § 26-1202(b) violate the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 192-200 .
…
(b) The interposition of a hospital committee on abortion, a procedure not applicable as a matter of state criminal law to other surgical situations, is unduly restrictive of the patient’s rights, which are already safeguarded by her personal physician. Pp. 195-198 .
(c) Required acquiescence by two copractitioners also has no rational connection with a patient’s needs, and unduly infringes on her physician’s right to practice. Pp. 198-200.
In other words, one doctor, these days a for-profit mass abortionist, using his “best medical judgement” (which is more likely his best financial judgement), is sufficient to legally terminate any pregnancy at any stage of pregnancy.
This is one aspect of the abortion debate that is almost never mentioned, and yet it exposes the utter hypocrisy, and hence invalidity of current abortion jurisprudence.
Incidently, it is Doe v. Bolton that opened the floodgates to late term abortions. Because of the almost uniform radical pro-choice views of mass media, most Americans are unaware of this decision and believe that abortions after the first trimester are only legal if the mother’s life is in danger.
In fact, legal abortions may and do occur in the 9th month simply because the mother desires it. She need merely find a cooperative doctor, whose “best judgement” is that abortion is necessary to protect the mother’s “mental health”.”
Krista
Genuine question – not being snarky: how often does that actually happen?
W.B. Reeves
While I posed the question hypothetically, I’ve no doubt that millions of parents have already asserted this power. Very likely in the wake of a tearful confession by a minor daughter. Having spent a couple of years volunteering as an escort for a local Women’s Clinic, I can testify that a fair percentage of younger women arrived at the clinic accompanied by their mothers.
There seems to be a mythology at work here. Apparently, it consists of believing that most minors who have abortions do so secretly, without their parent’s knowlege and that if the parents we’re aware, it would make abortion a less likely outcome.
That’s hardly a foregone conclusion. I suspect that most abortions performed on minors occur with the support of at least one parent as it is. Such procedures aren’t free after all. There is no reason to think the percentage of Parentally mandated abortions would be altered significantly by Parental Notification edicts.
A more likely result would be Abortion coming out of the closet as a family affair in American life and as the parental solution of choice for the problem of teen pregnancy.
tzs
The FATHER’S mental health?! The FATHER’S mental health?!
Good. Let’s stuff it in his belly if he thinks it’s so important. And HE can carry the kid to term.
Look, I understand (and can sympathize) with would-be fathers having their own opinions and emotions about the abortion. But they’re not the ones carrying the fetus, they’re not the ones with the physical burden, they’re not the one whose health is at risk and their load of the whole matter is miniscule by comparison to what the woman goes through. And they shouldn’t be the ones to make the decision.
Lines
And with that fabulous statement of total mindless wingnuttery, I’m done talking to Paul L. It shows where your bias lies, and no matter how well a progressive pro-privacy argument is made, you won’t listen to it because you are a nutcase with an anti-abortion agenda that doesn’t fit in with the rest of society. You will find every little piece of evidence that fits into your narrow world view and helps promote your way of thinking and raise it to “factual” status in order to justify your belief that Liberals wants to kill all fetuses, that doctors are all pro-abortion baby killers and that because of abortion society will crumble.
When will you be climbing up on your tower to shoot at some abortion doctors? How long before you start building bombs full of nails and broken glass to place in front of health clinics?
Ancient Purple
That’s a wonderful anecdote, but it hardly is convincing. Can you cite an accounting of the number of times this actually happens, even a per capita number?
I am not denying that it may have happened, but I seriously doubt that the incidence of this is anything greater than miniscule at best.
Krista
I seem to recall reading something on Salon recently about how there’s a startlingly large number of pro-life activists who have brought their own daughters into clinics for abortions.
A lot of people who are in favour of parental notification laws seem to do so under the assumption that it will reduce abortion numbers because the parents will warmly and fuzzily encourage the girl to have the child, and will help her raise the child. They conveniently forget that there are parents out there that have browbeaten their daughters into getting an abortion, for reasons at which I could only guess.
I stick by my earlier statement – if a teen gets pregnant, she’s got enough on her plate to deal with without being forced by the government to tell her parents about it. If she’s got a good enough relationship with them to tell them and can count on their support, good for her. If not, then why exponentially increase the hell that these girls are going through?
W.B. Reeves
Yes. Sadly, there are some folks for whom no situation is so bad that they can’t think of ways to make it worse.
Mr Furious
I can’t even believe you back up what was at least purported to be a scientific study with this bullshit propaganda.
Tell us Paul, how many late-term abortions constitute this “flood?”
Other highlights:
“simply a ruse where the proposed “harm” is to her mental health”
“for-profit mass abortionist”
From the same website:
“AIDS activists?” Setting up leper colony AIDS camps? Please, Paul, bring us some more of this crap. It bolsters the case against your intelligence more than anything else.
Paul L.
Never, I am on the fence about abortion leaning pro-life. I do not believe that first trimester abortions or birth control should be illlegal. I find abortion upsetting and think we should try to use education and free ultrasounds to prevent abortions.
I just find the tactics of the pro-choice/planned parenthood crowd slimey. Like trying to ban Crisis Pregnancy Centers from using ultrasound and using Roe, which I think was bad law to prevent any regulation of abortion.
Sorry not a zealot on abortion.
However in the case of Gun Control ……
Paul L.
So if SARS/Bird Flu/Mad Cow hits the US, you oppose contact tracing and quarantine of the victim of those diseases too?
Mr Furious
Take a lesson from Samuel Alito then, don’t use zealotry to make your points. Some of the garbage you put up today (especially the last big quote) certainly points to you being a pro-life maniac, not a person ‘on the fence.” Not only did you do the debate no favors, but none were done for yourself either.
Mr Furious
If the bird flu mutates all the way to being a human-to-human STD, yeah.
Lines
Mr Furious, if you let him off after this fantasic trip into fantasy land:
then you get no pity later for believing his latest withdrawl of “Sorry not a zealot on abortion.” Paul L has given absolutely no room for wiggle with his rant about 9th month abortions and anti-fetus doctor shopping. He’s offered nothing in the way of sources for his claims, and even if he had them, they are going to be from anti-abortion fear sites. If you challenge him on the sonogram bullshit, he’ll retreat into freedom of speech or something equally dishonest.
Joey
Sorry, but I found that to be abso-fucking-lutely hilarious. Or am I stupid, and the Repubs suddenly became the beacon of small government again? Outside of who you marry, when you die, what is considered brain dead, etc, of course.
Joey
They may be “slimey” but at least they don’t blow anybody up.
Paul L.
If you tell me to shut up, I’ll hit you with the anti-war “crushing my dissent” talking point and point out Free speech protects speech that you disagree with. Of course this is John’s Blog so he “censor” me at his will.
sonogram bullshit? did you try googling…
http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/014151.html
“Planned Parenthood: friend of the unborn?
I’m finding this story hard to believe. An Illinois state representative who voted against a state ban of partial birth abortion is so concerned about the health of unborn babies that she’s pushing a bill to outlaw all ultrasounds on pregnant women except those ordered by a doctor. When asked by a pro-life legislator whether that would include ultrasounds performed at crisis pregnancy centers, she said she didn’t know. The bill passed the state House and now heads to the Senate. Planned Parenthood and the Illinois State Medical Society encouraged her to sponsor the legislation. HT: The Corner”
Krista
Sigh…look Paul. Nobody LIKES abortion. You’d have to be off your nut to be skipping into the clinic going, “La, la, la!”. Of course it’s upsetting. Everybody wishes that abortion could become a thing of the past. But as long as there is unwanted pregnancy, there are going to be terminations, be they legal, in a clinic, or illegal, with a coat hanger, a deliberate fall down the stairs, or self-poisoning.
So, we have to be realistic. Abortions are going to happen, whether we like it or not. So what do we do? We reduce unwanted pregnancies. It’s not going to eliminate all abortions, but it sure as hell will reduce the numbers substantially. It’s the only thing that will.
If all of these pro-lifers fought as vehemently to make contraception safe, affordable, and accessible, I’d respect their opinions a lot more than I do.
Mr Furious
Lines,
Those were not Paul L’s words, just crap from the website he was quoting. As I said above, using that to make your case is like Alito claiming, “I’m not a bigot, but I’m with those CAP bigots over there.”
I’m not letting him off with anything. After a whole thread full of bullshit, to declare that he is “on the fence” at the end is practically laughable and/or an infuriating waste of everyone’s time with a dishonest level of “devil’s advocate” douchebaggery. Unless Paul L turns out to be Doug J, that is.
And then he comes right back with the quarantine stuff. I’m not buying any of his “moderation.”
Mr Furious
Lines,
Those were not Paul L’s words, just crap from the website he was quoting. As I said above, using that to make your case is guilt by association-by choice, not unlike Alito claiming, “I’m not a bigot, but I’m with those CAP bigots over there.”
I’m not letting him off with anything. After a whole thread full of bullshit, to declare that he is “on the fence” at the end is practically laughable and/or an infuriating waste of everyone’s time with a dishonest level of “devil’s advocate” douchebaggery. Unless Paul L turns out to be Doug J, that is.
And then he comes right back with the quarantine stuff. I’m not buying any of his “moderation.”
Mr Furious
Sorry about the double-post. I thought the first one crapped out.
Lines
Ah, thanks Mr. Furious, I should have followed the link, washed my eyeballs with lye and sat in a dark room for hours waiting for the pain to go away. Then after reading the second “Christian” site about ultrasounds and the comments that included paranoid rantings like “do you know what they put in vaccinations?” I’ve decided that I think the whole right wing of America is loony toons and I should just let myself slip into sweet insanity so I can be part of society again.
Steve
By the way, how do free ultrasounds prevent abortions? I think I’m missing something.
Paul L.
Wow, Lines in that last post you were able to sound closeminded, condescending and ignorant all at the same time.
A trifecta Congrats.
Sigh…
http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/okeefe021903.html
The quotes are pure pro-life gold.
“When used by faith-based pregnancy centers opposing abortion, ultrasound “isn’t a matter of providing more knowledge, but an attempt to manipulate women,” said Susanne Martinez, Planned Parenthood’s vice president for public
policy in Washington.”
…
“They don’t want women to go to Planned Parenthood, where they’ll get their full range of options,” said Alison Herwitt, director of government relations for NARAL Pro-Choice America in Washington. “They just want them to go to crisis pregnancy centers, where women will be exposed to this weapon at taxpayers’ expense.”
Yep slimey.
MAX HATS
Gee whiz, don’t want the kids doing awfully inconvenient things for their little lives like abortions. Best they just did the easy thing. You know, give birth.
And if they’re daddy is raping them, then they should just tell their daddy! Or something! Most people would agree!!!
Lines
I believe there was a Christian study a few years ago where they would give potential abortion patients a free ultrasound to show them the baby inside of them. The first pass data seemed to show that those that knew it looked like a baby, with arms, legs and such would be less willing to go through with an abortion than before. For some reason, the Dobsonites are supplying all critical care locations with free Ultrasound machines, now.
Ah, when you can’t rule by fear, rule by guilt. Oh, wait, isn’t guilt just a subset of fear?
Steve
Well, okay, I get it now. The propaganda war over pregnant women really bugs me. Every year the pro-lifers try to push through yet another piece of legislation requiring doctors to provide women with yet another piece of literature about how horrible abortion is. At some point, it’s going to take nine months just to read through all the materials.
And the result of this is a pushback where pro-choice advocates oppose any and all information you might want to require, because they’ve seen this trick too many times.
I think informed consent is an important concept, but this is a silly game. The talking point is that there are these abortion doctors who make sooooo much money performing abortions that they won’t tell the woman a single thing to discourage her. And yet, you could make the same argument with respect to any medical procedure. Doctors always have a financial incentive to perform additional procedures, and yet somehow, the streets are not full of people who have received unnecessary kidney transplants.
If you asked me in a vacuum, I’d say anyone who would change their mind on whether to get an abortion based upon seeing that the fetus has arms and legs probably shouldn’t be getting that abortion in the first place. On a personal note, my wife went to the doctor today and she reports that, at 9 weeks, it resembles a kidney bean.
Lines
Congratulations Steve, despite my liberal urgings I hope the pregnancy progresses to a healthy birth for both mother and child.
MAX HATS
Strormy, I’m reacted to a sort of delayed-onset of horror at your posts in this thread. You seem to regard teen pregnancy as being roughly on par with teen smoking. “blah blah they just made a poor choice they should tell their parents blah” FOR CHRISTS SAKE, IF KIDS ARE GETTING PREGNANT THERE IS A PROBLEM.
If a thirteen year old stole a candy bar and yelled at their teacher, you’d probably assume there’s a parenting defeciency. But if that thirteen year old has unprotected sex? Well gee golly, I’m sure their parents are great people who really need to be involved as much as possible in the system. Wrap that whole thing up like it was Leave it To Beaver. Besides which there is whatever godawful percentage of these pregnancies where the parent or other family member is the father, or otherwise condones whatever heinousness is going on. Are you callous, or just stupid?
Steve
Thanks, Lines, although you need to realize that my wife and I are both “pro-aborts,” as the kids say. We’ll probably wait until the ninth month before we get around to deciding what to do.
Krista
Congrats on the impending family addition, Steve. (I assume congrats are in order, as you’re disclosing this information to us?)
The thing is, people need to wake the hell up and accept that people like sex. They really like it. Even if they’re not married. Even if they’re not aiming for procreation. Even if they’re not 21. They’re going to do it, regardless of all of the fantasy-based abstain-only sex ed. So, we’ve got some choices to make. Do we encourage, educate and allow everybody to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy and disease, and give them the option of safely ending a pregnancy should all of those safeguards fail? Or do we keep our heads up our collective asses, pretend we live in a Leave it to Beaver (no pun intended) world, and reduce access to education, contraception, and safe abortion, virtually guaranteeing a population explosion of unwanted and possibly unhealthy children?
Lines
Krista: Someone has to collect my garbage. A virtual sea of unwashed/unseen masses to care for the elite would be a Conservative Utopia.
Stormy70
You morons seem to think I am not pro-choice.
I am against a minor being able to get an abortion without their parents permisssion. The majority of parents will take their daughter to the clinic and have the pregnancy terminated. If a teen can have sex, have an abortion without the parent’s knowledge, then why have rules on cigarettes and alcohol. Old enough to make such a major decision that will affect a minor mentally for the rest of her life, then why can’t said minor do all the other adult things like smoke, drink, and screw anyone she wants. Why is it just abortion that should have no rules. Oh, and only an idiot of the highest magnatude couldn’t get free birth control. It is very available.
Sojourner
Best line of the day. Congrats on your impending parenthood!
MAX HATS
So. . .it is just like teen smoking then.
Wow.
Pregnant 13 year olds come from perfectly functional families, then have perfectly consensual sex with other 13 year olds so they can get pregnant. (Just like the cool kids!) But if only they would tell their parents, their parents would understand and they would get abortions and everything would work out in the end. It’s all no big deal, really. Kids will be kids!
Stormy, you live on the moon.
You keep talking about how everyone who’s anyone would agree that 1) teen pregnancy is no big deal, 2) perfectly well adjusted kids are the ones having unprotected sex in middle school 3) if the parents found out, they’d be perfectly understanding! and finally 4) the cases were the dad is also the grandfather aren’t worth making much of a fuss over* — if that’s all so normal and reasonable to anyone you know, then no wonder red states are such pits.
*Just wondering: does the family abuse scenario fall under “kids will be kids” or “it’s time these teenagers show some personal responsibility?”
Stormy70
Max Hats – are you joking? I am for parent notification because this is such a big deal in a teen’s life. But most here seem to think it is ok for a teen to get an abortion without their parent’s permission. Do you really want an unknown doctor performing an abortion on your daughter without you being told about it? Hell, even the schools can’t touch a student without permission from a parent, but it is ok for a doctor to stick instruments into your daughter’s uterus? I think it is wrong not to involve the parents in this type of decision.
I see you fail reading comprehension. I am showing you the road one goes down when it is ok for a 13 year old to go get an abortion without her parents involvment. Where does it end? The reasoning behind letting a minor get an abortion on her own will lead to letting her do other things on her own. Why let anyone regulate minor behavior at all? I think I am done on this issue because like many here, you will twist this around and come up with something easily as silly as your previous rants. You and Lines should join up and take reading comp 101. Maybe they will teach you guys to read simple english. I doubt it.
Barbar
There’s no way a 13-year-old girl could handle getting an abortion without parental consent.
But motherhood? That’s easy.
Yeah I know, what a totally random non sequitir. Getting an abortion is just like getting a tatoo — if you don’t do it, you definitely won’t regret it later.
Steve
I don’t particularly care whether the law requires my daughter to tell me she wants an abortion. If the only reason she’s telling me is that the law requires her to, then my family has problems the law can’t fix.
MAX HATS
Stormy, why do you keep assuming the parents of pregnant 13 year olds are Good People who are going to make The Right Decision? You keep hoisting all this on the kids’ shoulders. Gee whiz, they made a mistake (golly!), they need to own up to it. THEY’RE 13. If they’re sexually active at that age, there’s problems, and at least some of those problems are at home. Those of us cursed to live in the real world know, the very best (by which I mean least worst) thing laws like this lead to are beaten up pregnant thirteen year olds and forced births. The worst are the imprisonment of children by premature motherhood to poverty and hopelessness, and a system acting to further cower the most vulnerable sexual abuse victims before their abusers.
I’m still waiting to hear what the benefits of these sorts of laws are, outside insane Leave it to Beaver fantasies where Ward drives Beaver and his sweetheart off to the abortion clinic with a pithy lesson and smiles all around. Explain the pros to me, Stormy. Oh wait, you’ve given up. That’s your code word word for “I don’t have a good argument, but I don’t have the guts to admit I’m wrong,” yes?
Insomniac
“The thing is, people need to wake the hell up and accept that people like sex. They really like it. Even if they’re not married. Even if they’re not aiming for procreation. Even if they’re not 21. They’re going to do it, regardless of all of the fantasy-based abstain-only sex ed. So, we’ve got some choices to make. Do we encourage, educate and allow everybody to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy and disease, and give them the option of safely ending a pregnancy should all of those safeguards fail? Or do we keep our heads up our collective asses, pretend we live in a Leave it to Beaver (no pun intended) world, and reduce access to education, contraception, and safe abortion, virtually guaranteeing a population explosion of unwanted and possibly unhealthy children?”
Well said!
Children who aren’t responsible enough to drink or smoke certainly aren’t responsible enough to carry a baby to term. I’ve known, via social work, young mothers who used drugs, smoked, drank, refused to take prenatal vitamins, subsisted on junk food, and took other unnecessary risks with their baby’s health. Generally, the younger the mom, the less likely she is take care of herself during pregnancy. It’s a responsibility a high school kid cannot reasonably be asked to shoulder. Not to mention the psychological fall-out of either having to hand that baby, that she’s emotionally bonded with over the course of 9 months, over to an adoption worker or commit to parenthood at an age when reasoning skills aren’t even fully formed within the brain. There are parents, the ones these naifs would have to get approval from, who would not stop to consider the reality of teen pregnancy and would not hesitate to allow faith, or undiluted emotion, to prevail over reason. Now that is irresponsible decision-making in the extreme. Unfortunately, there is no shortage of bad parenting today.
Krista
Stormy, I understand what you’re saying. It’s not a pleasant thought, is it? But…I would hope that if I have a daughter, that she and I would have a good enough relationship that she could come to me about this. Or if not to me, to another trusted adult like her aunt. If our relationship is so bad that she would only notify me if forced by law, then I think that says more about my parenting than about current abortion laws. Of course I’d want to know if my daughter was looking to get an abortion. But you know that there are real cases out there of parents who are absolute mean-spirited assholes. And the only result of those parents being told would be another pregnant teen on the street or in a homeless shelter. Why, legally, would we force a kid to go tell her parents, when she knows that telling them will only make her situation much, much worse? There’s no perfect answer, is there? So all I can do is think, “For whom will this have worse, and longer-lasting repurcussions?” and form my opinion based on protecting whoever stands to lose the most.