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You are here: Home / Politics / Open Thread

Open Thread

by John Cole|  January 31, 20098:40 am| 118 Comments

This post is in: Politics, Outrage

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What she said. And before Larry Kudlow starts whining about stifling creativity and what not, let us remember this is only for people receiving TARP money. By definition, they gave already failed.

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Reader Interactions

118Comments

  1. 1.

    Xenos

    January 31, 2009 at 8:45 am

    Indeed, if they don’t like a cap on their salary, they are free to go shop for a new job.

    There has not been a free market in executive compensation since, like, forever. But most especially the last 15 years.

  2. 2.

    Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse

    January 31, 2009 at 8:55 am

    Ah. No links that I can see, but I presume that you;re referring to McCaskill. Damn good way of framing the issue on her part. Let’s see any of those fuckwits argue that their job is more important, complex and demanding that being President.

    EDIT: Now I see an embedded video trying to load. Got it.

  3. 3.

    demkat620

    January 31, 2009 at 9:15 am

    Its about time somebody said it. You have to admire the way Obama and his people are cornering the GOP on this. They are going to make them come out and defend these assclowns. And the whole Rush Limbaugh fealty project.

    Love it.

  4. 4.

    JL

    January 31, 2009 at 9:18 am

    How many pols would get up and say "I’m mad, everyone that I work for is mad"? She is a great Senator not only for Missouri but for all of us.

  5. 5.

    Walker

    January 31, 2009 at 9:19 am

    If this an open thread…

    I saw Taken last night. I was looking for some mindless entertainment after the week and I got it. But half-way through the film, it occurred to me that this movie felt like some right-winger had seen a Bourne film and decided "I can do better than that".

    Let us count the right-wing tropes (minimal spoilage; not much more than the trailer reveals).

    1. His past as a government employee is lionized. He was always a good guy. He even uses the title "preventer" to emphasize this.
    2. His buddies are all private contractors now. However, instead of scamming the government, private contractors provide useful services like protecting pop singers.
    3. His daughter is abducted in a foreign country (see Natalie Holloway).
    4. The local police are completely ineffectual (and counter-productive) in finding his daughter (see Natalie Holloway).
    5. There is the mandatory ticking time-bomb torture scene, as in 24. Furthermore, in this torture scene, he talks about his experience with it in the past (see 1).
    6. The bad guys at the end of the movie are Arabs, and there is a showdown with them. This is done even though Arabs are totally unnecessary for the plot, and any other nationality would have worked just as well.

  6. 6.

    JG

    January 31, 2009 at 9:20 am

    I know who I want to be like when I grow up now. Damn she would have been an awesome VP.

  7. 7.

    Libby

    January 31, 2009 at 9:27 am

    Good morning all. Claire rulesThese CEOs are the poster boys for Epic Fail. Way past time for them to feel a little of the pain they caused.

    Meanwhile, I’m here to bleg for a friend.

    My on-line friend Sinfonian has been going through some hard times. In times of trouble, a little bloggy love helps. He is up for a important local award and needs your votes. Today’s the last day of voting and he’s down by 20 votes. For no apparent reason, I’ve become personally invested in helping him win and he needs a major blitz to counter the number one guy so please take a moment to click through and Vote for Sinfonian, entry number two, "Blast Off – My Date with Debbie." Thanks in advance.

    This is not even a shameless blogwhore for me. The link goes directly to the voting post and it only takes a few seconds to vote.

  8. 8.

    R. Porrofatto

    January 31, 2009 at 9:27 am

    I’ve worked with and known many Wall Street folks. As people they run the gamut as in most fields, some good, some bad. But, across the board, I’ve never met anyone with such an intransigent and exaggerated sense of entitlement. The money flowed like water and even middle managers made millions, and the average American who’s been reamed by these parasites doesn’t have even the glimmer of a fucking clue what this level of money is about. And you only have to look at the two articles in the Times today about how resentful the execs and traders are that their bonuses aren’t as obscenely lavish as usual to see that they will never change.

    A cap like this would be swell, but we’ll never see it, and even if it was passed, they will find some way around it, guaranteed.

  9. 9.

    Comrade Darkness

    January 31, 2009 at 9:28 am

    Please ma’am, may I have another?

  10. 10.

    JL

    January 31, 2009 at 9:28 am

    John has shown great restraint this week. Where are all the super bowl posts?

  11. 11.

    Tattoosydney

    January 31, 2009 at 9:35 am

    "Right now, they’re on the hook to us, and they owe us something other than a fancy waste basket and a $50 million jet. They owe us some common sense.

    And if any of them think it’s a hardship to take the salary of the President of the United States, I dare them to say so out loud right now."

    Woo and Yay!

  12. 12.

    Redhand

    January 31, 2009 at 9:38 am

    But, across the board, I’ve never met anyone with such an intransigent and exaggerated sense of entitlement. The money flowed like water and even middle managers made millions, and the average American who’s been reamed by these parasites doesn’t have even the glimmer of a fucking clue what this level of money is about.

    This is the kind of thing that causes bloody revolutions in other countries.

    As to the sense of entitlement these fuckwads have, I agree. During my 20 years in corporate life I encountered some of these schmucks myself. Obscene compensation has divorced them from all sense of reality. And the de-coupling of performance and compensation has been a quiet scandal for years in the financial sector.

    Perhaps the most disgusting excuse is the need to pay this money to "retain good people," as in "the same assholes whose incompetence and greed created this mess to begin with."

  13. 13.

    dmsilev

    January 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

    I think this sums up a lot:

    Even some bankers, at Citigroup and other institutions, said they felt a bit ashamed about getting bonuses in hard times like this. But none of them offered to return the money.

    -dms

  14. 14.

    Svensker

    January 31, 2009 at 9:43 am

    @Libby

    My on-line friend Sinfonian has been going through some hard times. In times of trouble, a little bloggy love helps. He is up for a important local award and needs your votes. Today’s the last day of voting and he’s down by 20 votes. For no apparent reason, I’ve become personally invested in helping him win and he needs a major blitz to counter the number one guy so please take a moment to click through and Vote for Sinfonian, entry number two, "Blast Off – My Date with Debbie." Thanks in advance.

    Done. He’s down by about 13 now, so let’s pick up the pace here!

  15. 15.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 9:44 am

    By definition, they gave already failed.

    John, I think you meant to say they have already failed? The only thing they gave was more money to their own pockets, so actually they received it, the U.S. government gave them the means to receive.

  16. 16.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 9:46 am

    This might have been addressed elsewhere, but re: the PJTV issue…I don’t even know if or to what extent it affects this site or John, per se.
    However, the blogger linked above (via TBogg) mentions going toward a "paid site model".

    Since this appears to be a full-time non-job job for John as is, I would have no problem kicking in some cash for a year’s membership whatever thingey*. Actually, I will offer my superb proofreading skills in exchange, now that I think about it.

    (*BJSF submitted for consideration.)

  17. 17.

    Svensker

    January 31, 2009 at 9:48 am

    But, across the board, I’ve never met anyone with such an intransigent and exaggerated sense of entitlement.

    Yes. A friend of ours works on Wall Street. He told us during the Big Three Auto drama that "people on The Street deserved their bonuses because they all had college degrees and were cultured. Auto workers were blue collar people who didn’t understand the finer things in life and hadn’t really worked to get what they had." I kid you not. And he’s actually a very nice guy. Just not very clueful.

  18. 18.

    Conehead

    January 31, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Democrats need to keep hammering the message, over and over, stated clearly by Obama, that labor is not the problem, the shameful greed and misplaced entitlement of failed management is the problem. There are plenty of talented people who could do a better job than these failures for $400,000. I know I could.

  19. 19.

    Mark-NC

    January 31, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Looks like another bill that the Republicans can vote NOOOO on.

    Let them!

  20. 20.

    John Cole

    January 31, 2009 at 9:52 am

    @Laura W: All it means is that instead of someone else doing the grunt work with ads, I will have to throw up blogads and amazon and whatever else.

    Really, that will be the only change.

  21. 21.

    Napoleon

    January 31, 2009 at 9:53 am

    Got a chance to visit Steeler land yesterday with a ski trip to western PA and let me tell you Steeler mania is in full bloom. The PA turnpike exit I got off of at even had scarecrows set up on the toll booth islands, each in Steelers shirts and I saw terrible towels on people skiing.

    Go Steelers!

  22. 22.

    Brown Man

    January 31, 2009 at 9:53 am

    Obama Should Do Wall Street Road Trip

    This was more politically correct than my original idea – doing driveby shootings of these turkey assed CEO’s.

  23. 23.

    J Royce

    January 31, 2009 at 9:53 am

    All this Con money has grown up a homegrown American Aristocracy. Same as it ever was. Same corrupt attitudes, same protection of others in their Class, same sick hatred of the less fortunate, same waste of resources.

    This is the reason we have estate taxes. It is for their own good, really, to save their pearlescent hides from guillotines and such. They cannot learn or help themselves: they really do believe they are the Atlas Who Shrugs right up to the time they are packing bags to escape the country.

    This was apparently the New World Order pappy Bush prattled on about. It is actually a return of the Old World Order, but then saying THAT would have been honest and truthful and that’s just not the Right-wing way.

  24. 24.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 9:55 am

    @John Cole: Good. You need to throw up amazon asap since I seem to have an out-of-control shopping fetish going on over there lately.

  25. 25.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 9:56 am

    @Libby:

    Down by only 1, come on let’s lift this up.

  26. 26.

    Graham

    January 31, 2009 at 10:01 am

    You know, there is a saying ‘If you owe the bank a million dollars, the bank owns you, if you owe the bank a billion dollars, you own the bank’.
    Now the banks owe the US gov $700 billion dollars, so who do you think owns who?

  27. 27.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 10:04 am

    Actually, I will offer my superb proofreading skills in exchange, now that I think about it.

    Sorry Laura W. There was a proofreading error in the post, you must have missed it. I called it out, if anyone gets the proofreading skills in exchange, I think I just proved I’m the woman for the job. ;)

    j/k

  28. 28.

    Adrienne

    January 31, 2009 at 10:11 am

    I heart Claire McCaskill. I want to move to Missourah just so I can claim her as my own. I’m from PA so I’ve got Specter and Casey, and I’m back and forth to NYC so I’ve kinda got Schumer and Gillebrand. None of them have made me swoon like Claire.

  29. 29.

    Ash Can

    January 31, 2009 at 10:15 am

    But, across the board, I’ve never met anyone with such an intransigent and exaggerated sense of entitlement.

    I nearly fell into that trap myself. Years ago, I worked at a financial firm. I was interviewing for a job at a competing firm, and one of the answers I gave to the question of why I was looking to leave my then-current firm was, in essence, that I was miffed that my firm hadn’t paid bonuses that year. (My co-workers were annoyed by the lack of bonuses as well.) The interviewer responded by pointing out to me that bonuses by definition were never guaranteed; they were a nice extra if your firm happened to make a surplus that year, and if I were to go to work for his firm the situation could very well be similar. As soon as he said this, I knew he was right and I was wrong. I walked out of the interview a better person for having been schooled by him. (It was the only sticky moment in an otherwise smooth and pleasant interview, and although I ended up offered but not taking the job, the interviewer and I remained on friendly terms for years afterward.)

    As a result, when I hear bonus-entitlement whining now it sounds like nails on chalkboard to me. Obama was right to slap these spoiled brats around the other day.

  30. 30.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 10:16 am

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero: I have no problem brain job sharing.

  31. 31.

    Adrienne

    January 31, 2009 at 10:20 am

    @Graham:

    Now the banks owe the US gov $700 billion dollars, so who do you think owns who?

    Technically, the banks don’t "owe" us in the standard form that would make your quasi-statement true. We have preferred equity in the banks and could technically sell that equity whenever we damn well please and recover at least part of our money. We would probably take a loss, and thus so would they – probably to the point of collapse.

  32. 32.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 10:26 am

    @Laura W:

    k, although if you pointed out the error, he might actually FIX it.

    He hates me, I think.

    ::sticks tongue out at John::

  33. 33.

    Tattoosydney

    January 31, 2009 at 10:33 am

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    Have you two quite finished rabbiting on about errors and whatnot?

    Hee.

  34. 34.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 10:33 am

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero: He doesn’t truly hate you until he tells you to DIAF.
    You have a long way to go, Darlin’.

  35. 35.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 10:34 am

    @Tattoosydney: Rattling on, Sweetie Darling.

  36. 36.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 10:35 am

    @Laura W:

    Oh, has he done that to you? It sounds like you know the drill. ;)

  37. 37.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 10:36 am

    @Tattoosydney:

    WYFP? This is an OPEN thread!

  38. 38.

    Tattoosydney

    January 31, 2009 at 10:39 am

    @Laura W:

    rabbiting on

    Does that phrase not get used on your side of the Pacific?

    It must be time for bed. Too much sweet, sweet lime vodka over here… *grin*

  39. 39.

    Tattoosydney

    January 31, 2009 at 10:40 am

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    Just joshing, I promise. I was trying to point out what I assume was the proofreading error in a tangential way. My bad. And whatnot.

  40. 40.

    Libby

    January 31, 2009 at 10:41 am

    @Svensker: Thanks so much. It’s working. Latest count is he’s up by about 7 votes, but the other guy has countered with a blitz every time he’s been ahead so I’d like to see him with a really healthy lead.

    Balloon Juicers rock.

  41. 41.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 10:45 am

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero: Yes.
    Ancient history now.
    I’ve almost nearly barely gotten over it.

  42. 42.

    Libby

    January 31, 2009 at 10:45 am

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero: Thanks so much. I don’t know why I’m so invested in this, I don’t get anything out of it, but I feel a lot of empathy for him. He lost his job, his girlfriend, his home in the last few weeks. The award would cheer him up I think.

  43. 43.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 10:54 am

    @Libby:

    He lost his job, his girlfriend, his home in the last few weeks.

    Christ.
    How about 2,000 BJ hugs?
    Christ.

  44. 44.

    JimPortlandOR

    January 31, 2009 at 10:55 am

    While we are open threading, regarding Pajama Media:

    I sure hope John finds a quick way to disassociate completely from PJ. My skin crawls every time I see their crap on John’s blog. Time for this symbolic break to end things.

  45. 45.

    Conservatively Liberal

    January 31, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Get me out in the "real World" with these so called experts that demand compensation for pushing paper and watch how fast I show them how worthless they are. Every time they run into a problem, out comes the money to pay someone else to solve it. They can’t fix anything, they can’t use tools, they can’t exert the effort necessary to hold down a production line job. When push comes to shove, high priced paper pushers are worthless and a drain on society. When you have more paper pushers than you have people who actually produce something worth selling, then you have an economy going to shit.

    Executives should be paid more, yes. But the compensation they have been getting is obscene, especially in light of the fact that if they were a regular employee who performed as bad at their job as they had then they would have been fired on the spot. Instead, these guys have golden parachutes. These guys walk away smelling like roses after having fallen face first in shit, and we get stuck with the bill.

    Meanwhile, Joe and Jane Sixpack are struggling to make ends meet and are lucky if both of them still have their jobs. Kids are delaying moving out of their parents homes because they can’t afford to live out on their own. Wages have been flat for the vast majority while a small minority have been being showered with cash from scamming the system in one way or another. Nobody is going to jail but everyone knows that what has happened was criminal. Just that it was on such a massive scale that there are too many people to point fingers at, let alone figure out who to go after first. At least that is the way it is being played out.

    The concentration of wealth at the top has our economy out of balance. Economies work when money moves back and forth in a productive manner, and it has not been moving in a productive manner in many years. The rich just kept getting more money and they needed more places to put it. The bankers and investment markets saw that money and they had to come up with innovative ways to move it around to move it around and create the illusion of making more money out of money to suck all of that cash into their coffers.

    By ‘fixing’ the system under the guise of catchy phrases like "Free Trade", money was now being sucked out of the country but the rich were now getting even richer. Which meant that the middle class and the poor were getting poorer because good jobs were drying up. Many people who may have gone into manufacturing instead went to college and joined the firms that were pushing paper all over. What else could they do?

    Now they are losing their jobs, there are few manufacturing jobs left, the middle class and the poor are decimated or soon will be and there is nothing we can do about it but have the government try to spend us out of this mess. People who usually spend (the middle class and poor) are afraid to do so because they don’t know if they will need that money for later survival. They have little to no savings, their investments in the market are in the dump, same with their 401k, so no money to spend there. Their largest single investment, their home, was overvalued by a gamed market and if they took out a HELOC then they are in a world of hurt as the home prices fall.

    The system depends on money moving, and not in one direction. The people the economy needs to drive it are out of gas. If people don’t buy (or work) then everything falls apart real fast.

    Concentrating wealth at the top does not work because you will get more productivity out of the money when it is in the hands of the middle class and poor than you will get with the rich. Give one already rich guy $150 million (CEO-type money) and then give another $150 million the middle class and poor, divided up between 6,000 people ($25,000 each), and one year later tell me which group put that money to work by spending it in ways that move the economy.

    It won’t be the rich guy, I can tell you that. By allowing our wealthy class to become top-heavy with cash, we have allowed them to bankrupt the system. In their ‘game’, he who has the most money ‘wins’ and they have won while the rest of us have lost. Our problems started when the rich stopped paying their fair share of taxes. Once that happened, executive compensation went through the roof. No need to reinvest the money to ‘hide’ it from the tax man, now they could just pay it out and take it home.

    Sorry for the mindless rant but I am sick and tired of the shit that we have been made to eat by our government, the very people who are supposed to be looking out for us. In the end all they were interested was in getting their fingers into a cut of the pie to get their share. Some of us have known for some time what has been going on (we of the DHF) and have been absolutely amazed to watch it all unfold right in the open and under everyones noses.

    Nobody stopped it. Everyone thought they could play musical chairs because when the music stopped they were sure to have a chair for themselves. Now they are finding out the chairs were an illusion. The solution? Free up that cash up at the top and get it back to work. Until then, all bets are off.

  46. 46.

    libarbarian

    January 31, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Lets make the I-95 corridor the new Appian way and just line it with crucified execs spaced every 100 yards or so.

  47. 47.

    joe

    January 31, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Demkat, Rudy 9/11 already came out and did so. Cole called it to a T. He complained that this will "stifle creativity."

    HAHA…goodluck winning that governorship in new york, moron.

  48. 48.

    Brick Oven Bill

    January 31, 2009 at 11:11 am

    My first real customer was an ex-banker who had quit and started up a small concrete outfit. It has been ten years, and we still meet for lunch. He is a successful man.

    He explained to me how the banking system worked. There are basically the big banks, which years ago I was told are too big to fail. These guys meet with a government representative, who, if there is trouble, comes up with a solution which involves one bank absorbing another.

    I was told that these bankers fund their own regulator, called the Federal Reserve. So the bankers who got these bonuses that Clair is complaining about are the same bankers who gave Geithner a $435,668.00 kiss on the way out of the Federal Reserve, on his way to owning the printing presses. Geithner’s Chief of Staff is a lobbyist from Goldman Sachs.

    Paulson ran Goldman Sachs, engineered a large percentage of the CDOs, was not holding them when they went bust, and had been installed as Treasury Secretary just after the M3 number stopped being tracked and just before the housing bubble burst.

    My Pizza Price Index (PPI) is $1.57 as of three days ago. This will be tracked. This will go up, I suspect. One answer is tariffs.

  49. 49.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 11:15 am

    @Conservatively Liberal: Please do not tell me you wrote that high.
    I will be sick with envy (again).

  50. 50.

    tom p

    January 31, 2009 at 11:17 am

    I heart Claire McCaskill. I want to move to Missourah just so I can claim her as my own.

    Well, I am proud to call her my own. I voted for her and gave her money for on simple reason: She is one tuff broad. She took a lot of heat during her stint as our state auditor (when she investigated any and all), and a lot of pols breathed a sigh of relief when she left that position.

    She took on the wimp of a sitting gov. we had in the primaries, but lost the general to Matt "Baby" Blunt. 2 yrs later she came back and beat the tar out of the incumbent Jim Talent (her margin of victory was narrow, but she fought for every vote all over this state, even SW) to get in the Senate. She came out for Obama early when it was a very risky thing to do and worked her ass off for him in the primaries and the general.

    One last thing: I don’t always agree with everything she does, and I am not shy about telling her so. I ALWAYS get response from her (office, at least) Sometimes it takes a couple weeks, but I get one. I have been waiting years to get a response from our other embarressment, Kit "Backstroke" Bond.

  51. 51.

    Brian J

    January 31, 2009 at 11:19 am

    There were these two people who are familiar with the trends and rules of corporate governance on "The NewsHour" last night or Thursday night. The guy that was on said that some of these bonuses may have been for people outside of the very top of management and were instead meant for people who "made the trains run on time" and received most of their salaries almost in the form of commission. If that’s the case, it complicates the matter a little. Not that I particularly want them to have large sums of money right now, but it’s not exactly fair to rip the rug out from under people who weren’t necessarily responsible for all of the problems facing these firms.

    But still, McCaskill is on the right track. If these people are going to be receiving help from the government, there should be a more defined level of compensation, both for the very top of the corporate ladder and for those still high up but outside of the CEO/CFO/President-style roles. If nothing else, it would make people feel as if they weren’t about to be ripped off, but the money would, in theory, be high enough to attract top talent.

    But I wonder about that. Hell, if a person is competent enough to turn a failing firm around, if that’s indeed possible, who wouldn’t jump at the chance? Anybody who is qualified enough to be considered is likely already very rich, even with the downturn in the stock market, and if they do a good job, once the crisis is over, isn’t there a good chance that they’d be asked to stay?

  52. 52.

    Brian J

    January 31, 2009 at 11:21 am

    @tom p:

    That sounds exactly like the senator every state deserves.

    Tell me, what exactly did she investigate when she was a state auditor?

  53. 53.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Nobody is going to jail but everyone knows that what has happened was criminal. Just that it was on such a massive scale that there are too many people to point fingers at, let alone figure out who to go after first. At least that is the way it is being played out.

    They were too big to jail?

  54. 54.

    Conservatively Liberal

    January 31, 2009 at 11:25 am

    @Laura W:

    Can’t you tell? Geez, the errors, doubled up words, topical changes in mid-flight. That was one mindlessly stoned rant.

    Time for another toke. ;)

    Edit: Actually, that was a rant and completely off the top of my head. Sometimes I wish I could sit down and write out how I see it all but it would be a novel that nobody would want to read…lol

    And, seriously, yes. Baked to a crisp, as usual. :)

  55. 55.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 11:30 am

    @Brian J:

    Those funds were given for the reason of continuing solvency. If those banks continued solvency and continued in business, they could then reward whomever for whatever out of the money the business made (hopefully for a reasonable amount). We, the taxpayers, were not informed, nor would we have allowed it if we had known, that money was going to reward individuals.

  56. 56.

    Brian J

    January 31, 2009 at 11:30 am

    Demkat, Rudy 9/11 already came out and did so. Cole called it to a T. He complained that this will "stifle creativity."

    HAHA…goodluck winning that governorship in new york, moron.

    If he runs, I hope I still live in New York so I can vote against him. If I’m not mistaken, Il Duce Giuliani was prepared to spend at least a billion in subsidies to get the financial firms and the stock exchange to stay in New York when he was mayor after some of them threatened to leave for New Jersey.

  57. 57.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 11:31 am

    @Conservatively Liberal:

    Geez, the errors, doubled up words, topical changes in mid-flight

    Oh, I didn’t read it.
    I just meant the sheer length of what appeared to be the English alphabet letters all put together with nice spacing.
    ;-)

  58. 58.

    blogreeder

    January 31, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Any comments on the actual contents of the "Stimulus Bill"? What’s good about it and what’s bad? From what I hear it’s a bunch of Pork. But what do I know. It’s great to see the House Republicans grow a set and vote against it unanimously. Good for them. Really. Anything to slow government is good. I don’t think that will happen in the Senate because they’ve got the Maverick.

  59. 59.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Oh, I didn’t read it.

    LMAO.

  60. 60.

    Brian J

    January 31, 2009 at 11:34 am

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    Maybe I wasn’t clear. I was simply saying that if this money that is being classified as bonuses is being given to people who have most of their income given in the form of commissions or something like it, then perhaps it’s not as indefensible as it seems. This, of course, depends on that being true, and not too much of this money going into too few hands.

    But in general, I agree with you.

  61. 61.

    Brick Oven Bill

    January 31, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Last year, Geithner received ‘between $50,000 and $100,000’ in ‘unused vacation and comp time’. This is over and above the $411,000 salary. So let’s assume that the compensation for the unused vacation and comp time was $75,000.

    Figuring Geithner sacrificed and did not take, say, two weeks of vacation and comp time, this works out to $5357 per day of lost vacation and comp time. This is pretty good. In this context, the $435,668 severance does not seem excessive.

  62. 62.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 11:36 am

    @blogreeder:

    Anything to slow government this economy is good.

    That’s what you really meant, wasn’t it? Just say so, dammit!

  63. 63.

    Conservatively Liberal

    January 31, 2009 at 11:39 am

    They were too big to jail?

    Rhymes with ‘fail’, so that must be the reason Nero! Makes about as much sense as anything else lately…lol!

    @Laura W:

    It is all part of an illusion. Thank you for telling me that it works. ;)

  64. 64.

    blogreeder

    January 31, 2009 at 11:46 am

    That’s what you really meant, wasn’t it? Just say so, dammit!

    No, I mean government. Remember the Patriot Act? It was rushed, wasn’t it?

  65. 65.

    Libby

    January 31, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    @Laura W: Send him virtual ones if you got them. I’m sure they’ll help.

    Meanwhile, I’ve heard the site stopped taking votes but not before you lovely people put him ahead again. I"m going to keep checking, and if that changes, and begging John’s forvgiveness in advance, I’ll be back with one more bleg before the day is through.

    Thanks again everyone. You folks are the best.

  66. 66.

    Janet Strange

    January 31, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    @Conservatively Liberal: Actually, I did read it. All. And I liked it so much that I bookmarked it.

    It looks long, but when you consider how much it sums up (correctly, imo) it’s really pretty short.

  67. 67.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    January 31, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    6. The bad guys at the end of the movie are Arabs, and there is a showdown with them. This is done even though Arabs are totally unnecessary for the plot, and any other nationality would have worked just as well.

    Personally, I thought it looked like someone wanted to make a big screen version of 24 without getting hit with a (C) violation suit.

    According to the review I read, the damsels in distress were going to be sold into white slavery, so of course the bgs had to be some sort of swarthy dudes. Add brown cocks rearing their heads over virginal Caucasian loins to your list.

  68. 68.

    Church Lady

    January 31, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    As much as it pains me to defend the Wall Street bonuses in any way, a few things should be pointed out:

    1. The 18 billion figure, an estimate, applies to all banks, financial firms, etc., not all of them TARP babies. Some banks and financial firms actually managed to eke out a profit in 2008.

    2. Some banks receiving TARP funds didn’t ask for it and didn’t need it. They were forced by Paulson to take it and are now just sitting on it, or using it to buy other banks.

    3. Not all of the bonus money went to greedy executives and traders. It went to operations and administrative personnel (a/k/a the little people) as well. And again, not everyone paid a bonus was employed by a firm receiving federal funds.

    4. A lot of financial personnel have employment contracts which call for performance based bonuses. Essentially, their monthly salary is a draw against commission based on performance and the bonus is akin to a commission. The performance is not based on the overall earnings for the firm, but for the performance within a specific area. If the employee meets the goal that was set, it would be a violation of the employment contract not to pay the bonus.

    Say I’m a municipal bond trader, even for a firm that received TARP funds, and my trading desk turned a multi-million dollar profit for the year. I have an employment contract that calls for a bonus based on reaching a certain amoumt of profit and I have not only reached that level, I surpassed it. I am due the bonus/commission that was spelled out in my employment contract. One can argue that the firm lost money for the year, but I can point out my area made a profit and thus limited the overall losses by the firm, and therefore I deserve my bonus.

    Yes, paying out bonuses while Rome is burning looks bad, but in some instances the bonuses were warranted and it will be a long time before anyone knows exactly which firms the estimated 18 billion came from and exactly who got it and how much they each got.

  69. 69.

    Conservatively Liberal

    January 31, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    @Janet Strange:

    Thank you for the compliment. IMO, that is the problem with this mess; trying to come up with a short but succinct tale of what went wrong that people can understand. This ‘crap’ just stews in me until I find a long-but-short way of getting it all out in one burst.

    Right or wrong, it is just my opinion and one of many out there. Saying it gets nothing done but it sure calms the nerves a bit just letting it out. Maybe more people will ‘get it’ and get sick too.

    If that is the case then it was worth writing. :)

    Thanks :)

  70. 70.

    Cathyish

    January 31, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    @Laura W: FTW!

  71. 71.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    No, I mean government. Remember the Patriot Act? It was rushed, wasn’t it?

    Have you ever complained about it? Seems I remember you were always worshiping whatever the R’s wanted (and I don’t recall ever agreeing with you on a single thing). I simply don’t remember you ever saying a bad word about anything that Bush or his rubber-stamping congressional rubes were doing. What happened, you changed your mind when it was convenient?

    Got a post to back up your distaste for the Patriot Act? I’d like to see it. Please link. I’ll believe it when I see it.

  72. 72.

    Conservatively Liberal

    January 31, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    Yes, Church Lady, that is why Thain at Merrill rushed the bonuses out a month early and before the year even ended, they earned them.

    Right. Gotcha.

  73. 73.

    Libby

    January 31, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Last Update: This was the most poorly run contest I’ve ever seen, but in exploring the site further, I see the voting ended at 10:00am this morning. The site now says we have a winner but it doesn’t say who it is. However when the voting closed Sinf was ahead by 7 votes, so it had better be him. I think we did it.

    Thanks to everybody for voting. Again, BalloonJuicers are the best!

  74. 74.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Yes, Church Lady, that is why Thain at Merrill rushed the bonuses out a month early and before the year even ended, they earned them.

    Right. Gotcha.

    Like quite a few times on this blog, Church Lady gives us a lesson in the reality which resides in her own mind, not the reality as it is on the ground. She tells us what she wants to believe, as if that’s going to give us any real clue about anything that ACTUALLY happened.

  75. 75.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    January 31, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    @libarbarian: No way. Think of the poor turkey buzzards and crows that might eat that shit by accident and die.

    Now if you want to talk about cutting holes in the ice on the Hudson and Potomac lowering them to their chins and letting the water, carp and snakeheads do their work, I’m all ears.

  76. 76.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    January 31, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Also, there was a card thrower on the teevees demonstrating his talent on hot dogs, carrots, cucumbers and so on. I have sworn off even looking at a deck of cards for life.

  77. 77.

    Patrick

    January 31, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Claire is not a hero. She should have made this case before the money was given out. She is getting slaughtered on the St. Louis Post-Dispatch website http://www.stltoday.com in the comments for this too little too late stand.

    And before you all move to Missouri and join her reelection campaign, she voted for telecom immunity and defended it vigorously in a letter to me. She also wholeheartedly supports Israel and acknowledges no responsibility on their part in creating the recent crisis in another letter response to me.

    Many of us in Missouri bombarded her office with calls before this bailout was passed insisting there be lots of strings attached to this money and explicit restrictions regarding bonuses of any kind. We were ignored and now she is grandstanding. This woman is not a progressive. She just copies whatever Obama does once its safe to take that stand because he has.

  78. 78.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 31, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    @Laura W: No way?! What could you ever do that would cause him to say that to you? Hell, he can’t fucking stand me and he’s never told me to DIAF, publicly, to my face. :)

  79. 79.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    4. A lot of financial personnel have employment contracts which call for performance based bonuses. Essentially, their monthly salary is a draw against commission based on performance and the bonus is akin to a commission. The performance is not based on the overall earnings for the firm, but for the performance within a specific area. If the employee meets the goal that was set, it would be a violation of the employment contract not to pay the bonus.

    Yes, paying out bonuses while Rome is burning looks bad, but in some instances the bonuses were warranted and it will be a long time before anyone knows exactly which firms the estimated 18 billion came from and exactly who got it and how much they each got.

    If a bank is losing money, and can’t afford to pay those who are helping the bank to fail (whether the work they did was good work or not) if the bank can’t afford to keep afloat, they simply should NOT be paying out any bonuses, neither should they petition the U.S. government on the premise that the money is going to a be shot in the arm to help the bank continue to operate. I’m sorry, bonuses are not operating expenses, that is why they are called BONUSES.

  80. 80.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    @Libby: Will you email me at [email protected] please, Libby.

  81. 81.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Oh Fuckhead. I don’t want to open up a still-festering, painful wound I am licking to death, frankly.
    Life’s too short, the sun is out, and compared to a lot of folk, my life rocks right now.
    I did look around to see if you were there to defend me, but alas.

  82. 82.

    Church Lady

    January 31, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    @Conservatively Liberal- Obviously, you can’t read. Did I defend Thain, or others like him? No, I don’t recall doing that. You might want to reread the post and them put your comprehension skills to work. I noted that not ALL bonuses came from banks/firms receiving TARP fund, not ALL bonuses went to greedy executives, and not ALL bonuses were necessarily undeserved.

    Nero, the same applies to you. Up yours.

  83. 83.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 31, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    @Laura W: Now I’m practically rocking myself while humming loudly. If I failed you it had to be for a pretty damn good reason, like maybe it was one of those annoying threads where the person who bought a pet is admonished he shoulda adopted someone else’s reject defective pet?

  84. 84.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: That was the BEST damn laugh out loud I have had in a full week, Fuckhead.
    And I seriously mean that.

    Actually, it was waaaay worse even. It was videos of a bunch of "bands" I’ve never even heard of and never want to hear of again.
    Sucked.

    Edit: and the laugh is just as loud on the (third) re-read.
    Man…you are something.
    Affirm, affirm, affirm.

  85. 85.

    kay

    January 31, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    I’m outraged (well, sort of) because they want it both ways. The Wall Streeters are defending themselves by claiming Obama is advocating "socialism".
    The bonuses weren’t set by markets. They’re lining up for a bail out. If markets had been liberated and permitted to work their magic, they’d all be unemployed.
    They tanked those banks and investment houses and insurance firms and rating’s agencies. Some of those entities had been in business for 140 years, and these dumb-asses destroyed them in 8.
    Individuals founded every one of them, and it took YEARS. They employ millions.
    What are we hearing? Whining about bonuses.

  86. 86.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Nero, the same applies to you. Up yours.

    Your Jesus says that’s a no-no! ;)

    What you fail to realize is that just because some banks weren’t failing and may have received money, and just because some of those bonuses were in contracts, and just because some of those people were little guys does not make it alright when the banks that WERE failing were handing out bonuses.

    You are trying to say it’s okay because it helped some people. The fact is the funding was never presented to congress or the American public as anything more than money to help the banks stay afloat. These bonuses didn’t do shit to help the banks stay afloat, or they would be lending again, they aren’t.

  87. 87.

    magisterludi

    January 31, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Libby- tried to vote earlier, but poll was closed.

    They tried to give me a Gateway laptop as a consolation, tho. How sweet.

  88. 88.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    @Cathyish: I thank you very much for that and would like to pay it forward to Fuckhead at #83.

  89. 89.

    kay

    January 31, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    They aren’t relying on ChurchLady’s argument. They aren’t saying it helped some little people. Instead, they’re whining that most of their compensation comes from bonuses.

    But you remember the rationale for bonus-based compensation, don’t you? It was market-friendly, and it rewarded excellence. It was sold as the antidote to nasty incentive-destroyers, like unions.

    Uh, oh. Now they need a guaranteed wage. Fixed expenses, and all that.

  90. 90.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 31, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    @Laura W: Okay, I found it by googling Laura W + DIAF (#1 hit!) and I have an explanation: I didn’t participate in that thread because I thought it was for DougJ.

    Anyway, I took John’s comment to be light-hearted. Who tells you in one breath to die in a fire and then in the next breath remarks on their own personal charm? I’d say that’s subtle comedy gold.

  91. 91.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    @kay:

    Absolutely kay. You understand it. Church Lady is stuck in lala land thinking that since a few people lower down on the corporate ladder got some extra money that makes it all okay.

    Our economy is tanking, no bonuses are okay under those circumstances. The banks said they needed all of that money to infuse the entity so it could do more business. If the banks didn’t need that, they shouldn’t have been looking for a bailout. It wasn’t presented that way, the taxpayers were scammed and now we’re out money that could have been used to help stimulate in other areas.

  92. 92.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    and it rewarded excellence.

    Absolutely. A failing bank surely isn’t excellence. If the CEO wanted to make sure those who deserved bonuses got them, perhaps he should have taken them out of his own fat wallet.

  93. 93.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    January 31, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Now they need a guaranteed wage

    Generous minimum wage for execs is okay with me, as long as it means generous minimum wage for workers too.

    And to keep things honest, the minimum for execs will be a multiple of the minimum for the workers.

  94. 94.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    January 31, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    The banks said they needed all of that money to infuse

    The banks are playing a little game with us. They said, we can’t operate and make loans without help, give us money.

    We gave them the money, and then they say, this economy is bad, there are not creditworthy applicants out there. Sorry, we can’t make loans under these conditions. We regret that we have to just sit on the money. Surely you don’t want us making bad loans, do you?

    Four words: OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.

  95. 95.

    Krista

    January 31, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    As this is an open thread, I won’t give any spoilers, but holy motherfrakker on a piece of toast, BSG was awesome last night!

  96. 96.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    January 31, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Four words: OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.

    I agree. That’s 700+ billion that didn’t stimulate shit and won’t be available in the future to stimulate shit either.

  97. 97.

    Cain

    January 31, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    @Walker:

    Let us count the right-wing tropes (minimal spoilage; not much more than the trailer reveals).

    Is it just me or did you just describe all the Die Hard movies with some minor changes?

    I’m sick of seeing all the long trailers on hulu. The funny thing is that the trailer keeps getting longer with more and more parts being revealed. Eventually the trailer will become the movie!

    cain

  98. 98.

    kay

    January 31, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    Absolutely. A failing bank surely isn’t excellence. If the CEO wanted to make sure those who deserved bonuses got them, perhaps he should have taken them out of his own fat wallet.

    I’ve been listening to them for a long, long time. I resent the idea that their (alleged) area of expertise is so completely unknowable and mysterious and that they are RARE, and deserving of really unlimited compensation, and that they (now) can uncouple it completely from performance.

    Live by the sword, die by the sword.

  99. 99.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Who tells you in one breath to die in a fire and then in the next breath remarks on their own personal charm?

    I’m gonna let that remain rhetorical if you don’t mind.

  100. 100.

    Cain

    January 31, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    @John Cole:

    @Laura W: All it means is that instead of someone else doing the grunt work with ads, I Dougj will have to throw up blogads and amazon and whatever else.

    Make him work. :D

    cain

  101. 101.

    Brick Oven Bill

    January 31, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    Church Lady says:

    “…it will be a long time before anyone knows exactly which firms the estimated 18 billion came from and exactly who got it and how much they each got.”

    This is not necessarily true. AIG, for example, that company that Geithner’s predecessor in interest gave, I think, $70 or so billion dollars to, paid 400 of its managers a bonus of $450 million.

    This $450 million of taxpayer bonus money was necessary, you see, to continue retain the talent that AIG had so skillfully retained over the years. This is the talent that invested in all of those CDOs and credit default swaps.

    This $70 billion, or whatever it was, was engineered by the Treasury Department, under Paulson, who ran Goldman Sachs. Geithner did not run Goldman Sachs, although his $5357 per day of vacation and comp time allowance was in part funded by Goldman Sachs. Geithner’s Chief of Staff is a Goldman Sachs lobbyist.

  102. 102.

    Cain

    January 31, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    @Janet Strange:

    @Conservatively Liberal: Actually, I did read it. All. And I liked it so much that I bookmarked it.

    It looks long, but when you consider how much it sums up (correctly, imo) it’s really pretty short.

    I told him to start his own blog one time. I even have a name now "Moat Juice". haha It can compete against John!

    cain

  103. 103.

    kay

    January 31, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Bonus-based compensation carried risk. That’s what justified the big pay-outs. Unlike someone who works for a set wage, in good times and bad, bonuses could be huge, because they might not be there tomorrow. That’s the trade-off.
    Now that the downside has kicked in, they’d like to change the rules.
    But, they were paid well, prior, to cover that risk.

  104. 104.

    Cain

    January 31, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    @Laura W:

    @Libby: Will you email me at [email protected] please, Libby.

    You should consider doing something like
    lauraw217 AT gmail –dot– com

    so that email harvesters don’t grab your email address for spam. Or possibly, you might get Joe the Plumber spam. You don’t want Joe’s brain sent to you.. trust me.

    cain

  105. 105.

    magisterludi

    January 31, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    I wonder who’s doing the collective bargaining for WS execs wages?

  106. 106.

    Laura W

    January 31, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    @Cain: Thanks, Cain. I forgot as I was rushing. Will try to avoid brain sharing with Joe in the future.
    (S’not my main account anyway so no prob to delete all every day or so.)

  107. 107.

    gwangung

    January 31, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    If they’re sitting on TARP funds and not lending, then their books should be opened up and the government should be looking over their shoulders.

    I thought like Church Lady, but after reconsidering, the only part I’ll agree with her is for the businesses who didn’t take TARP money–they shouldn’t get tarred with the brush because they were the ones smart enough not to go down the same path as the idiots.

    The others? Sorry, but even for the rank and file, that’s the risk. Use the money to stay and business and pay the base salary–and the rank and file will be damn glad to have a job.

  108. 108.

    R-Jud

    January 31, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Way way way OT, and late to the thread, but maybe someone can explain this: When I’m in the kitchen doing something at the counter my husband will often glom onto me from behind and become all snuggly-like. The men in my previous relationships would do this too, regardless of whether I was handling something sharp or hot at the time. I’m not complaining, mind you, I just don’t get it. My butt’s not THAT amazing to look at (even when I am not 37 weeks pregnant) and my cooking is merely better-than-decent.

    It’s so predictable that if I want a little action, I just go into the kitchen and heat some soup or something. Within fifteen minutes, Mr Jud is pressed against my back nuzzling my ear, like a cat that hears the can opener.

    Do other men do this to their ladies? Why?

  109. 109.

    Cain

    January 31, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    It’s so predictable that if I want a little action, I just go into the kitchen and heat some soup or something. Within fifteen minutes, Mr Jud is pressed against my back nuzzling my ear, like a cat that hears the can opener.

    I do that. It’s instinctive. It’s not unlike a dog or a cat who is about to be fed as you say. :-) My little one does all kind of stuff when she knows that she’s about to get some thing fun.

    cain

  110. 110.

    Mnemosyne

    January 31, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    I noted that not ALL bonuses came from banks/firms receiving TARP fund, not ALL bonuses went to greedy executives, and not ALL bonuses were necessarily undeserved.

    I do not work in the financial industry, and the company I work for made a nice profit last year, but they still cut bonuses, laid people off and eliminated extras like holiday parties. That’s because they’re in business for the long term and not just trying to stuff as much money into their Swiss bank account as they can before the economy goes belly-up.

    You’d think that common sense would tell a failing company getting taxpayer funds that maybe they shouldn’t reward the people who got them into the mess they’re trying to dig themselves out of, but the financial industry doesn’t seem to be too big on common sense.

  111. 111.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 31, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    @R-Jud: My wife does that to me when I’m in the kitchen cooking. My ass totally rocks. Also.

  112. 112.

    R-Jud

    January 31, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    My ass totally rocks.

    As does Mr. Jud’s, but I usually only grab for it when he’s… well, when he’s doing anything, really, so never mind.

  113. 113.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 31, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    @R-Jud: lolz

  114. 114.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    January 31, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Since this is an OT: I discovered a pound of mozzarella in the fridge (and it didn’t put up a fight or nothin’). Anyone know any good mozzarella recipes? Anyone know any dessert recipes that feature mozzarella?

  115. 115.

    Cain

    January 31, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    @R-Jud: My wife does that to me when I’m in the kitchen cooking. My ass totally rocks. Also.

    Yeah, my wife does too… something about that kitchen.. but my ass is not great. Need to do more ass clenches I think. heh.

    cain

  116. 116.

    Ecks

    January 31, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    The proposed bill wouldn’t stop any deserving schmoes from getting their hard-earned bonuses, it would just stop them from getting over 400k. Who needs much more bonus than that?

    These bonuses didn’t do shit to help the banks stay afloat, or they would be lending again, they aren’t.

    It’s a dep/recession, who are they going to loan money to? The problem with the economy isn’t that enough new factories aren’t being built, it’s that nobody has the money to buy even the stuff that’s already been built.

    Blatant link whoring: my take on it.

  117. 117.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    January 31, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    Hey, who says Republicans are not lovable?

    Just look at the cute little things.

  118. 118.

    Jay in Oregon

    February 2, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    You gotta be kidding me!

    The 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, scheduled meetings in Washington this weekend with Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and other senators to press for her state’s share of the package.

    Gotta stop those earmarks, though, right? "No thank you" to the Bridge to Nowhere, wasn’t it? Once the cameras are turned off and her 15 minutes of fame are over, though…

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