Just so we are clear, President Obama is acceptable enough to have a personal audience with the Pope, the successor to Peter, the Bishop of Rome, and the worldwide leader of the Catholic Church. He is not, if you remember, good enough for the Republican Religious Right, who decided he should not be allowed to visit Notre Dame and pitched another one of their epic hissy fits.
Religion is just another tool for them to attain and hold power, and you’re a fool if you think otherwise. Why we have to pretend there are serious moral issues when these people talk about anything is a mystery to me. It isn’t about morality, beliefs, God, right and wrong, or any of that. It is about power.
Punchy
It’s clear from that photo that Obama is staring at Pope Benny’s ass.
IndieTarheel
We don’t. THEY do. And I doubt many of them believe their own tripe, they just use it for the reasons you stated.
JR (not the other JR)
Please note that Michelle is wearing a head covering for the Pope, and remember this when there is the inevitable freakout about her wearing a hijab in a Mooslim country.
Josh Huaco
Sort of. It is about morality, beliefs and right and wrong. The key is that many believe that they must wield Caesar’s power in order to establish a society where God’s will is done.
linda
i’m looking forward to the reichwing’s denunciations of the pope for daring to host the secretmooslimcommiemarxist to the vatican.
Joshua Norton
With all that black on, MIchelle looks like she’s in deep mourning. I’d say that’s the perfect look for visiting this particular pope.
calipygian
When will someone get all up in that pointy hat motherfuckers grill about the Church protecting child molesters?
El Cid
Obama used his Secret Muslim Ray to make the Pope into a junior Caliph.
Anticorium
The Pope is a RINO.
El Cruzado
So we have the Obamas, in black, flanking emperor Palpatine…
Methinks they’ve been tempted by the Dark Side.
Bob In Pacifica
Caption: Obama: “In some places in America we allow men who wear dresses the right to marry each other.”
r€nato
Does this mean Bill Donoghue is going to denounce the Pope now???
Betsy
Well yeah. I mean everyone knows the pope is a dirty soc1alst. Of course he likes Nobama.
kay
The Pope says unbridled capitalism and unregulated market forces have led to a thoroughly destructive abuse of the system.
He wants a world political authority to manage the global economy.
I’d capitalize World Political Authority if I were him. WPA.
I don’t think we’ll be hearing much about this inviolate papal authority anymore, from the right.
Cat Lady
@ John Cole re the right and religion: Word. There is not a spiritual or loving aspect to a single thing they purport to do.
@JR (not the other JR):
Michelle looks timeless and of all places. She is going to rock that hijab. Also.
Notorious P.A.T.
But–but–but religion is inherently good! ! ! Religious books themselves say so! And why would they lie?
KG
@10: I’m glad someone beat me to that one.
Brick Oven Bill
Christianity is a very timid religion. Christ walked the earth and helped people. He drank wine with his friends.
I’ve got my problems with the Catholic Church in that I see it as a mechanism by which the power structure used the teachings of the Bible to retain and grow their own power, as is suggested in the post. But still, the Catholic faith is pretty tame these days, and church going should be encouraged. I am a hypocrite in this regard.
Religion is hard-wired into man in my opinion, and in the absence of a religion like Christianity, people start to believe that they can make the world heat up, or equalize the cognitive abilities of people who evolved at widely differing latitudes.
Go to church.
MattF
I agree that right-wing complaints about Obama are about power,… but since when has the papacy (except for a brief period in the ’60s) been about anything but power?
Robertdsc-iphone
Hell yes.
amk
@Joshua Norton:
Hey, that white dude was wearing a white gown after all. What else you expect her to do ?
steve s
Godd*m, Bill, your thing about pies is getting out of control. Someone should intervene.
geg6
BOB, going to church is, IMHO, the worst possible advice anyone could give. Church and services are nothing but another version of bread and circuses. As for the Pope and the Catholic Church, I can speak quite authoritatively about that having grown up in an extremely involved Catholic family and neighborhood. And nobody does hypocrisy and cynical manipulation of the masses in the ruthless pursuit of power at any cost than the Roman Catholic Church. Nothing holy, Christlike, or moral about it at all. Nothing.
Bob In Pacifica
More serious take on religion and power: The Mass Psychology of Fascism, Wilhelm Reich. It will explain how stopping a toddler from playing with his thingie leads to war.
Comrade Michael "The Pope Smokes Dope" Brown
And when it finally dawns on you that religion has precisely the same subject as Republican politics, then you will have figured out the whole game.
Terri
Christianity as a timid religion, is as sarin gas as an allergy trigger.
Kathy in St. Louis
The conservatives such as Randall Terry, who has been a Catholic about 5 minutes and all the ultra conservative American Catholic bishops have been receiving signals for months that this Pope would like them to shut up about abortion and work on getting the flock back in the pews. Most outsiders think that the church is monolithic in its views. That’s not true. The ultra right has taken over the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in America, but not worldwide. This pope has stated, through the Vatican newspaper and this meeting with Obama, that he thinks Obama is a good man that can do much to better the lot of the people of this world. He is, by his actions, telling American leaders to hold their criticism.
a different phil
Just look at the information coming out about the DC C-Street Christians for another example of this in action. Maddow’s been all over this in the past few days.
kid bitzer
me at breakfast: “my, michelle is certainly looking sober and modest.”
mrs. bitzer: “i don’t know; i think the hemline is pretty daring. it’s higher than the pope’s.”
me: “sure, but then she’s got better legs.”
mrs. bitzer: “true, but he’s got far more fabulous shoes.”
Brachiator
Silly goose. Catholicism is not real Christianity. And you don’t have to bring your birth certificate to the Vatican.
And that might not even be the real Pope in that photograph. Could be a body double. Just sayin’.
More seriously, the wingnut objection to Obama is based on fear and discomfort. It is a psychological problem that is immune to facts and rational thought.
Brick Oven Bill – Religion is hard-wired into man in my opinion…
The desire to believe weird stuff, and the need for some to look up to social authoritarian figures may be partially hardwired. This does not make religion true or necessary. Some people worship the Dallas Cowboys. This doesn’t make football hardwired into any but the brains of Texans.
Bob in Pacifica — More serious take on religion and power: The Mass Psychology of Fascism, Wilhelm Reich. It will explain how stopping a toddler from playing with his thingie leads to war.
Junk science. War is one of the things that humans do.
Napoleon
@Anticorium:
Actually I think cafeteria Catholic works better.
El Cid
I think that we ought to allow private religion as an option, but only after several years and only with a trigger, so that the costs of such programs can be properly assessed.
gnomedad
The Pope pals around with baby-killers.
On a less snarky note, while I thought Michelle’s headgear was a bit over the top, I can imagine her playing the long game; she can wear this when she visits an Islamic country and simply note that “this is what I wore for the Pope.” Not that the wingers won’t have a meltdown anyway. Actually they are kinda permanently molten.
Annie
The religious right, and conservatives who love them — this has nothing to do with ethics and morality. Their mantle of religion is all about advocating for policies that would be unacceptable and corrupt without this mantle. Supporting torture is a perfect example. Sarah Palin is another. Without religious rhetoric — e.g. family values — the right is essentially bankrupt.
Beth in VA
Thanks for the perspective. With all the drivel that’s on cable news, why don’t the cable news folks point this out?
shelley matheis
Uh-oh, as soon as I saw that picture I thought ‘here it comes.’ If the wingnuts and freepers were having various hissy fits about Michele’s bare arms or her daughter wearing a t-shirt with a peace sign, this will be their next blown-gasket. ‘Does she think she’s a nun?’ ‘See, she really is a secret muslim; she’s wearing a burka!!!’
Lordy, lordy, lordy.
Brick Oven Bill
Religion is a subset of biology, similar to the manner in which fish school to protect the group as a whole. Christianity I am afraid is on the wane. This is because the world’s population has gone from 1 billion to 7 billion. Christianity is based on man helping man against the elements.
But going forward, man’s primary challenge will not be the elements, but other men in an overpopulated world. This is why Islam will probably win in the end. Populations who are commanded to love their enemy and turn the other cheek are at a distinct disadvantage when confronted with those populations who are commanded to kill the Infidel.
Islam’s weakness is a refusal to embrace the Liberal Arts, which give rise to machines, which prevail in open warfare. So the winning religion will likely be some version of Islam, modified to embrace freedom of thought, and to allow the consumption of adult beverages.
Those brains that evolved around machinery also largely evolved with alcohol, as a grain preservative through the cold winters. The future does not belong to the teatotallers. So keep your eye out for the emergence of this religion.
SGEW
I could actually see this happening.
Brachiator
@El Cid:
That’s a good one.
I like how the cheeky British newspaper, the Daily Mail, headlined Obama’s visit (Hope Meets Pope).
They’ve got a few more great photographs as well. But what was interesting was a posted comment from a reader in Syracuse, NY.
These are exactly the kind of people that Obama is most interested in reaching out to, those who can accept policy differences without needing to demonize the opposition.
Roger Moore
Why should we be surprised if American Catholics choose to argue with the Pope about whether it’s OK to talk to Obama? Plenty of them seem perfectly happy to disagree with him about other issues, like the death penalty. There are even those
reactionaryconservative Catholics who reject Vatican II. And, of course, there are plenty of liberal Catholics who seem happy to ignore what he has to say about abortion and birth control. Listening to the Pope seems to be strictly optional for American Catholics.passerby
Having been raised Catholic, I grew up in a front row seat for watching the pageantry and pomp of the Holy Roman Church. And I must say, I admired the FLOTUS’s choice of costume for meeting the Pope. Theatrical works well here.
In black, she was all “Sr. Mary Michelle, Handmaiden of Isis”, echoing the great traditions of nuns and their whole “Bride of Jesus” thing.
FLOTUS Michelle Obama: Bold and elegant.
Lyle4
Is it too much to think that not even the most developmentally challenged wingnut would think she’s wearing a hijab or some crap to meet the Pope?
Nate W.
@Brick Oven Bill:
Poe’s Law in action… My head is about to explode from trying to figure out whether BOB is a bona fide wingnut or just a sock puppet.
steve s
It’s too much to think that not even the Average wingnut will think that. I guaranteed you that some winger blog will complain about her hat or something else about how she was dressed. I don’t know if the tard blog in question will be Hewitt, Ace of Spades, Malkin, NRO, etc, but I know at least some of them will.
LD50
@Brick Oven Bill:
Blow me.
That is all.
LD50
@Brachiator:
I don’t recall that Ratzinger has produced a birth certificate. What is he trying to hide?
geg6
All Catholics will know even if the wingnuts freak out. If there is any more recognizable traditional garb for a devout Catholic matron, I don’t know what would be. It’s dramatic and romantic and over the top and there’s nothing more hardwired into the Church than that sense of the theatric. The world’s most frightening drama queen of all time makes her home in the Vatican. And her name is Mother Church. Michelle is honoring that and every Catholic knows it.
r€nato
@LD50:
I take it you are offering BOB communion?
SGEW
B.O.B. is the Schrödinger’s cat of trolls: he inhabits both possibilities.
Head explosion is the only logical response.
Svensker
But, but, but, this shows that Michelle is bowing down before the Anti-Christ (if you’re a fundie who believes that the Book of Revelations labels Rome and therefore the Church in Rome as the Anti-Christ). More proof of the One World Order conspiracy and that Obama is a Muslim!
Forgot to add, she looks lovely and elegant. Very nice.
Lyle4
Even if the wingnuts aren’t bitching about the veil, they’re already freaking out that she wore a shirt and a skirt, and not a dress.
Man, the shit women have to deal with when they’re just picking out clothes. I have like 5 outfits and just switch out the tie and shirt.
bago
See, this is why you need to listen to right kind of Ministry.
What we are looking at is good and evil, right and wrong.
oh really
@Brick Oven Bill
Go to hell.
LD50
@r€nato: This seems like a good moment to remind people of this.
kay
Michelle Obama grew up in Chicago, which is a very Catholic city, with a very Catholic power center, in my experience.
I don’t think anyone has to tell her anything she doesn’t know about American Catholics, particularly idiot conservative pundits who live in the outer suburbs of DC and the tony parts of Connecticut.
Napoleon
@Brachiator:
You quoted this from a comment thread.
I heard somewhere in the last few days that the Pope was very eager to meet Obama and in fact the Vatican made exceptions to several rules they have about meetings to get the meeting, like instead of making it a mid day meeting (apparently the Pope schedules meetings like that mid day) he worked around Obama’s schedule and meet him later in the day.
stormhit
@geg6:
And I can speak “authoritatively” (although you meant anecdotally) and say that you obviously went to a shitty parish. Maybe this is news to you, but they are not all controlled under a vast monolithic Vatican conspiracy. And as such, there is great variance between them. Also, someone wearing the traditional Spanish mantilla is hardly a deep statement on the evils of the Church.
parksideq
@Brick Oven Bill:
I think you missed the part where Islam becomes self-aware, and sends Gov. Schwarzenegger back in time to kill Sarah Connor.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Completely OT: The First Family out cutes a basket of kittens. Sorry, I just had to point that out.
Anyhoo, cue the TalEvangicals screeching about Obama, tool of the
IslamofascistsScarlet Woman!I’m also waiting for that dipshit what’shisface (self-appointed spokestroll for the R.C.) to flip out over that picture of Malia’s bare feet on the front page of the NYT.
passerby
@Kathy in St. Louis:
I totally agree with this. Don’t know when or how but, fundamentalist views seem to have infiltrated Catholic life in America. Perhaps its a side effect of 24 hour cable TV.
In my recollection, growing up, there was quite a difference between the behavior, politics and outlook of Catholics vs. those who commonly referred to themselves just as christians (Baptists come to mind).
And as anyone can see, most who refer to themselves as christian nowadays, are not Christ-ian at all.
Ash
What about an Easter basket full of BUNNIES, huh? NOTHING out cutes that.
Brachiator
@Napoleon:
You’re right. I recall seeing this in earlier stories on Obama’s visit with the Pope. The InterTubes is strange sometimes. The top ranked stories that show up in a search are versions that omit this little detail.
Still, a BBC news story contains an interesting detail about how the Vatican defends Obama (Obama holds first talks with Pope)
On the other hand, I was not aware of this little bit of US/Vatican realpolitik: evidently, the US envoy to the Vatican must be pro-life. According to another BBC news story,
Apparently, the Obama Administration informally floated three names, none of whom were acceptable because they were pro-choice.
By the way, the GOP is downplaying the warmth displayed in the Pope’s meeting with Obama, and instead is playing up the relative coolness of Obama’s reception in Russia.
Ash
Man, if only Obama could gaze longingly into Putin’s cool blue eyes an see his soul, everything would be honky dory.
Maus
^waits for the inevitable “FILTHY PAPIST MOHOMMEDAN!” threads from Freepers.^
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Ash: Mmm. If you’re talking highly domesticated bunnies, perhaps with floppy ears, I’d call it a tie. If you mean the wild bastards that are making my neighborhood look like Night of the Lepus, forget it, America hater.
JK
Bill O’Reilly took aim at President Obamas “lack of religion”
O’Reilly stated that Obama is a “secularist” who rejects public spirituality and cited several incidents. He claimed that Obama ducked a recent question about when life begins and criticized the Pentagon’s recent decision to discontinue Air Force flights over the “God and Country Festival.” Listed alongside O’Reilly during his speech was the following: “The USA has become the strongest nation on earth largely because of its Judeo-Christian traditions. Someone remind Obama.”
h/t http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/09/bill-oreilly-slams-obamas_n_229179.html
Brachiator
@Ash:
That was the problem. Obama looked in Putin’s eyes and said, “Man, you are one cold-ass Cold War honky.”
Walt C
Both the Pope and Obama were against the invasion of Iraq, as was the late Pope John Paul II.At the time, much of the Catholic right in the U.S. brushed off the Pope’s statements on the coming invasion of Iraq and its incompatability with the just war teaching as “prudential” , meaning since it’s not concerning teachings about dogma or doctrines then I can disregard them.Some on the Catholic Right do this also when discussing strategic bombing , modern warfare, Hiroshima, etc.Incidentally , this war has driven most of the Eastern Catholic and Ortodox Christian minorities out of Iraq where they had lived amongst a Muslim population for centuries. Albeit as second class citizens but not in social conditions bad enough to make them uproot from centuries old hometowns.
Obama also said during the campaign that some of his experience as a community organizer was influenced by the writings of the founder of Catholic Worker movement ,Dorothy Day.
Also , many Catholics in the U.S., especially under 50, have very little knowledge with their own Church’s social teachings. Growing up in a Catholic household back in the 1970’s, many of my older aunts and uncles were Democrats.
I found it telling that so many Catholic bloggers were deciding to wear black when Obama won the election due to the abortion and life issues. issueshttp://www.christianandamerican.com/today-i-wear-black.html Yet, so many were undisturbed about the invasion of Iraq and especially the doctrine of preventative war on which it was based . Most of the ones I know are mum or just concerned about the torture issue also. Incidentally , the Iraq war has driven most of the Eastern Catholic and Ortodox Christian minorities out of Iraq where they had lived amongst a Muslim population for centuries. Albeit as second class citizens but not in social conditions bad enough to make them uproot from centuries old hometowns. But no black armbands for them, or all of the Iraqis that have suffered through all of this.
LD50
And of course, if Obama had been received warmly in Russia, THAT would conclusively prove to the wingnuts that Obama was a commie who was secretly authorizing Putin’s Islamomarxist takeover of America.
LD50
I’ve never thought there was anything officially or even unofficially doctrinal about this — I’ve always thought the simplest explanation is that American Catholics are basically assimilating to American Fundamentalist Protestants without quite realizing it. In America, Southern Baptists are the gold standard of what it means to be a ‘Politically Conservative Christian’, and this is a cultural thing that has seeped through to Catholics as well. I think their motivation to do this is a desire to get a piece of the action in the grab for power by American Protestants.
In other words, the Fundies have been so successful at telling everyone what political beliefs American Christians are ‘supposed to’ have, that even Catholics have bought it.
jcricket
@oh really: I think BOB exemplifies the phrase “Hell is other people”.
But John’s got the Republican party figured out. There’s nothing they believe in except power and making rich people richer (which is mainly a tool to sustain power). Everything/everyone else is a disposable tool towards that end.
The sooner the Democrats realize that and act appropriately (showing good faith/press in bipartisanship, but in actuality shutting Republican/Republican ideas out of legislation) the better off the world will be.
r€nato
@bago:
Jesus built my hot rod.
JGabriel
Brachiator:
So, let me get this straight: the GOP prefers the president who can look into Putin’s eyes and see the goodness of his soul to the president who treats the Russkies a bit more warily?
I think I preferred the GOP when they were more cynical.
(/Irony)
.
The Cat Who Would Be Tunch
@JR (not the other JR):
What makes you think that?
Steve
John, I think what most conservative Catholics were hung up about Obama going to ND was that they gave him an honorary degree. At least that’s what they say, anyway. Presumably they wouldn’t have pitched such an epic hissy fit if ND had gone the same route as Arizona State and invited him to speak but not honored him with a degree. Um, on second thought I take that back. There still would have been a world-class hissy fit, degree or not.
Opie Curious
To be fair to the right, there is a real qualitative difference. The pope is a head of state. The right would be apoplectic if the head of state of another country rejected the American President’s overtures for a meeting, even if they don’t like that President.
Of course, they would also be apoplectic if the American President accepted a meeting from another head of state whom they don’t like. Obviously, you have to reeeeeeally love American exceptionalism for this pair of attitudes to make any sense together.
It’s incredible: even when I do my damnedest to make sense of what conservatives think, I have to grant them the right to at least one double standard for it to work out.
Jules
My, oh my, the Republican Trad Catholics are foaming at the mouth over the Pope’s new encyclical that seems to say that the well-being of mankind should be the business of business. This meeting will just push them over the top and they will go from lauding Benedict to calling him “that Socialist what lives at the Vatican”.
It really sucks for them when the uber!conservatives choice for Pope turns out to be a “closet liberalsocialistcommie” on everything but human sexuality.
maya
A pumpkin full of pandas. What about that, eh?
bernini
“A pumpkin full of pandas. What about that, eh?”
amen, sister.
Redshirt
Don’t the real Wingnuts – the rump of the party, if you will — hate Catholics? One world order or some such nonsense?
Kathy in St. Louis
PASSERBY @ 60
What has happened to the Catholic Church in the U.S. has happened because the number of priests declined and they started taking any warm body to fill the void. I worked in a Catholic High School for 5 years in the 80s, which was the beginning of the warm body movement in American seminaries. The newly minted priest would make me laugh and cry. Laugh, because they were kind of pathetic, effiminate and goofy….cry, because many years before, when my father was studying for the priesthood they sent him home because he was too much of a party guy and, as they told him….he’d make a better first-rate plumber than a second-rate priest. Now they were accepting jokers like these guys. Well, those guys are running the Catholic Church…a bunch of yes men, careerists, and all-round self-promoters.
I’m glad, for my sake, that they sent my Dad home. I am sorry they didn’t have the good sense to send these guys home as well and open up the priesthood to married persons and women.
Mike in NC
Hey, ever heard of the separation of church and state?
Raised as a Catholic in the 60s and 70s, we’d have nothing whatsoever to do with Republicans. That changed with the abortion thing in the Reagan era. It kept the GOP from going under when they should have.
HRA
Michelle Obama’s dress and head covering is what has been known forever as appropriate when attending an audience with the pope. I was glad to see it as I am positive was the pope and his staff. It will be seen as showing proper respect.
The wingnuts do not count. Let them be ignorant.
Brachiator
@HRA:
Absolutely. Anyone who doubts this need only check these historical photographs of the Brides of Chuckie during their papal appearances.
HRA
Here are our past and present first ladies visiting the popes:
http://eastwingrules.blogspot.com/2009/07/first-ladies-meeting-pope.html
someguy
I feel good that the President is able to reach out to everybody, including people who believe that they command vast armies (of imaginary people) who are fighting a war between good and evil, with our very souls at stake.
And aside from his willingness to talk to Congressional Republicans, it’s good to see he spoke with the Pope too. Hopefully he got him off this whole Jesus kick he’s been on lately.
PurpleGirl
Michelle’s outfit was perfect. She was all in black, modest and wore a veil.
It was also the perfect outfit for an Italian woman; it’s an old joke that once a woman is married and she starts wearing black in honor of relatives who have died, she never wears colored clothes again. (Look up Pat Caputo routines.)
Justin
Thank you John, you just restored my faith in humanity by stating this so clearly and succinctly.
Baroquem
The difference between the Pope, a head of state, receiving the President on an official visit, and a Catholic university giving him an apparent blanket stamp of approval by honoring him with a doctoral degree, ought to be abundantly clear. Nobody ever said that Obama should not be allowed to visit Notre Dame; the objections arose because he was there to be honored. The honor is at the very least confusing, making no distinction between the man’s laudable actions and those that must be condemned on a moral basis; moreover, it flies in the face of the guidelines laid out by the U.S. bishops’ conference.
So yes: it’s okay for the Pope to meet with Obama, and not okay for Notre Dame to praise and honor him. Do you really not understand the distinction?