How could this be:
Rebuffed this month by skeptical lawmakers when it sought finances to buy a prison in rural Illinois, the Obama administration is struggling to come up with the money to replace the Guantánamo Bay prison.
As a result, officials now believe that they are unlikely to close the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and transfer its population of terrorism suspects until 2011 at the earliest — a far slower timeline for achieving one of President Obama’s signature national security policies than they had previously hinted.
While Mr. Obama has acknowledged that he would miss the Jan. 22 deadline for closing the prison that he set shortly after taking office, the administration appeared to take a major step forward last week when he directed subordinates to move “as expeditiously as possible” to acquire the Thomson Correctional Center, a nearly vacant maximum-security Illinois prison, and to retrofit it to receive Guantánamo detainees.
I’ve been told, repeatedly, that all Obama needs to do is say he wants something, and the House and Senate will give it to him. If only he would use the bully pulpit, I am sure the 90 some Senators who gave him the finger on this issue this summer will turn around and vote the way he wants on what he wants. And if that doesn’t work, there is always reconciliation.
At some point, people are going to realize that the problem is not this administration, but the Senate. There is a reason the House and Senate leadership have not introduced a bill regarding DADT and DOMA. I wonder what it is?
And yes, it is maddening. There is a whole list of things Obama has not done that I would really like for him to do, and many of them are inexcusable and rest wholly on his shoulders.
Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle
And how, exactly, are we supposed to pressure these idiots? That’s the problem. A lot of them are bed wetters, but also they don’t represent the will of the people at all.
PeakVT
Ezra asks a related question.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Amen. For example, why do I still have a boss with a brain the size of a lima bean?
DonkeyKong
If only he would use the bully pulpit, I am sure the 90 some Senators who gave him the finger on this issue this summer will turn around and vote the way he wants on what he wants. And if that doesn’t work, there is always reconciliation.
MattR
Yep. Using your bully pulpit to pressure Congress to pass someting the American people want (HCR) is obviously exactly the same as using it to pressure Congress to pass something the American people are skeptical of (moving Guantanamo inmates to the USA)
CalD
The bully pulpit pony must be in the shop.
aimai
Its really not that people think that Obama can do anything and everything. It is in fact the case that Bush mastered the use and misuse of the *administrative* and *executive* side of things and carefully got stuff done that way. It was bad, but it worked. And it will continue working if the Obama people haven’t got the burrowers and the bushites out of the civil side of the government.
The only thing I wish Obama would do differently, at this point, is to grasp that he is going to have to point out just who is responsible for the thwarting of the people’s will. If he acts as though he’s satisfied with the progress he’s making, even though any fool can see that major initiatives are being stymied by the Republicans and centrist dems in a shifting coalition, then he’s not going to be able to fight the drag of the 2010 election. You are absolutely right that we have to take back the Senate next or nothing can get done, even if Obama were the second coming of Jesus there’s nothing he can do with this Senate. Or even a marginally better Senate and a worse house. But if he wants to get his voters out–I don’t mean the progressives but the low information/low income voters–he’s going to have to speak very slowly, in words of just a few syllables, and very, very loudly.
For the next couple of years I really don’t want conciliating Obama, or triumphant Obama, or pretty good Obama but really angry *on my behalf* Obama. After the HCB is through I want him to say;
“I want to thank everyone for an enormous and difficult effort. Its great and I’m proud of everyone in our caucus or who worked with our caucus. But our work is clearly not over. Now that the basic framework has been laid, as everyone knows, there is tons more legislative work to be done to ensure that….blah blah blah. We fought hard and we fought long to get this legislation–you might even say that some of us, like Senator Kennedy, died in harness trying to make it up that hill. What prevented us for forty years is what prevented us from completing our work in a single session–intransigent, angry, unrepentant, corporate interests and lobbying interests. These focused their money and their influence on the Republican minority. They knew they couldn’t stop our legislation, but they thought they might fatally cripple it by preventing us from including important initiatives like the popular public option or comprehensive guarantees that even the poorest family, and poorest women, are entitled to the same comprehensive health care protection as the wealthiest women and their families. Let me read a roll call of the names of the Senators from the other party who simply refused to offer the hand of friendship and honest help to the 30 million uninsured in this country. Maybe they thought the poor don’t vote. But even more astonishingly they refused to sign on to the historic parts of our legislation that guaranteed even the middle class the kind of insurance security we’ve all been needing…”
etc..etc..etc… OK, shorten all the words. But do it. Even a hint of complaisance and laurel resting is going to be counterproductive. The people will never get out to vote to thank the Democrats, but they might get out and vote to fight harder and continue the work. Its the difference between tipping the waiter for the meal afterwards, and bribing the maitre d’ to get a good table before.
aimai
Zifnab
Maybe I just don’t understand, but why the hell can’t Obama just use the money allocated to the Guantanamo Bay prison to do the overhaul? Is it specifically earmarked for Cuba?
wilfred
That’s how the Romans lost their Republic and got an Empire; subsitute pro-consuls for Administration and the analogy is almost perfect. In fact, they had no choice – Caesar had to take power.
They could have stepped away from the logistical decision making demands of an empire and the ensuing need for a unitary executive by simply renouncing the empire and turning inward, turning to their Republican roots. But being Romans, they couldn’t – they were in it for the glory.
We’re not Romans. As fucked up as the Senate is, it still keeps us one step away from the final descent into the depravities of Emperors and their courts.
MikeJ
@aimai: Bush ignored any laws he didn’t like and ordered anything he wanted to be done done, illegal or not.
And people complain that Obama *doesn’t* do this?
Yes, he’s just like Bush.
Annie
@Zifnab:
I don’t know. Just guessing — but maybe the funds come out of two different budget streams — Gitmo from the defense budget, and a rural Illinois prison from non-defense expenditures???????????
Overall, I think it is time that defense gave some of their money back to the non-defense budget, but, hey, that is just me.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@aimai:
Dear god I’d like to hear that speech. I don’t know if Obama has it in him. Some days I think he’s under the impression that he was elected to Lincoln’s third term, and his most pressing task is to bind up the nation’s wounds and heal our deep divsions. As a result we are getting McClellan when we need Grant.
But if Obama is going to give that speech, if 2010 is going to be The Year of Living Partisanly, then the efforts he made to compromise and work with GOPers in 2009 are all that anybody could ask for in the way of setup to make charges of obstruction and sabotage stick to the GOP like glue. There are no excuses left for failure, if he wants to fight.
Zifnab
@wilfred:
But that was the joke in the Roman Empire. Once the Emperor consolidated power, he got to have one big debouched and depraved imperial court. But in the run up to the collapse of the Republican, you just got to see dozens of little debouched and depraved Senatorial courts.
The problem wasn’t in Emperor versus Senate, but in corruption versus good government. And since the Senate wasn’t really flexible in its staffing, you ended up with a hundred Ted Stevens’s, stretching from father to son for generations.
I think the Bush Era was as close as America really wants to get to Nero for a while. But you don’t need to look much farther than C-Street to envision what an imperial US, decked out in depravity, would look like fifty years down the road. The roots are already in the ground – in the Senate.
The Raven
The problems are both Obama and the Senate. So? BTW, the only prisoners to be sent to Illinois are the ones which the administration wants to try in military commissions; if the administration were to abandon the military commissions, and either try these prisoners in the regular federal courts or return them to their home countries there would be no problem.
Advocacy:
Croak!
Jim C
Go fuck yourself. The bully pulpit would have worked fine if he didn’t hire a corporate whore named Rahm and do politics as usual from day one.
If he’d of come in from day one saying I’m not standing for the lies and all that nonsense. But, Obama came in defending the worst of the Bush policies and was hesitant to open his own visitor logs.
He is a fucking uncle tom if ever there was one. I’m not sorry i voted for him because Mccain would have been so much worse. I’m sorry I voted for him because he is a smart man and if he had chosen to do what’s right, instead of worry about 2012, he would have taken 2012 in a landslide.
Now, everyone he energized just sees politics as usual. He killed the spirit of millions.
So I tell you, the guy that thinks the first Bush was honorable,
GO FUCK YOURSELF AND YOUR THIRD GRADE INTELLECT.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
One other thing. From now on anybody who goes around using the term “bully pulpit” without qualifying that phrase with the recognition that when it came to legislation TR was a pathological compromiser who infuriated his progressive allies, needs to be beaten silly with hardback copies of Edmund Morris’ books.
jenniebee
Query for M. Cole – did this kind of thing go on when you were on the other side? I mean in the sense, did either the social wingnuts or the financial free-market absolutists ever turn their general campaigning for shit-that-ain’t-gonna-happen into complaints that nobody ever seems to get, say, the abolition of abortion or elimination of the income tax or destruction of Social Security… – did they ever stand up and say “hey why the fuck aren’t we getting what we voted for?”
Also, Bob Shrum looks like Wormtail from the Harry Potter movies. Discuss.
Mike from Philly
“There are no excuses left for failure, if he wants to fight.”
Aw c’mon. You guys can think of a few I’m sure. And if that well runs dry you can always bitch about the hippies.
Probably won’t even come to that though. If there’s one thing I’ve learned about Obama this past year, its that he is going to fiercely fight for the people who got him elected and stand by his professed principles.
Just ask the gays.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@aimai:
I’m sorry; I thought I was voting for someone who wouldn’t do that crap.
Silly me.
…you have read the guy, right? Watched him? Listened to him speak?
The Rock-as-Obama aside, I don’t want him to “get angry”. Angry is a waste of fuckin’ energy with all the problems we have. Angry isn’t got to convince Joe Lieberman — or have you forgotten when Obama actually did corner Holy Joe in the Senate?
Folderol and Ephemera
@Jim C:
No, guy. Fuck you. Fuck you a lot.
ts
Whoa Jim.
In one comment you’ve worked in ‘corporate whore’, ‘Rahm’ and ‘uncle tom’.
What will you do for an encore?
Da Bomb
@Jim C: Do you even know what Uncle Tom means?
Maude
@Jim C: Who are you yelling at?
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Bless you for noting that TR ref., man.
@Jim C: No, FUCK YOU WITH A RUSTY SHOVEL.
…sorry, I really didn’t know how else to talk to someone who thinks throwing around Uncle Tom aspersions is a useful rhetorical tactic. Didn’t really work well for Nader, and it doesn’t fit you too well, either.
You might wanna back that thang up.
Bubblegum Tate
For example, he has not fixed the dent in my front fender. In that respect, he is JUST LIKE BUSH. And you know who else didn’t fix the dent in my front fender? Hitler. I’m not saying Obama is Hitler, I’m just asking the question: Why has neither of them fixed the dent in my fender?
Sandlapper
@Jim C:
Back atcha. Also.
harlana peppper
Sooo, the Senate is a bunch of calcified, corrupt old farts who put their own interests before that of the people. Who knew?
Ash Can
Agreed. The difference between folks like us and the Jane Hamshers of the Left (TM), however, is that we believe the correct response to Obama is, “So DO it, already,” as opposed to “I’m done with you.”
wilfred
@Zifnab:
The Republic reached a perfect dialectic between Republican ‘virtues’ and the demands of Empire – Rome could not be a little bit of both; it had to be one or the other.
The Senate persisted as a domestic institution; someone had to make sure taxes were collected, and public works funded and built. But the running of the empire was left to Caesar. Mutatis mutandi.
There can be no synthesis between a republic and an empire, no in-between space. We won’t see Obama turn away from the unitary privileges conceded by the Senate, neither will he, nor anyone who comes later, encroach on their privileges.
Zifnab
@Jim C:
Rahm was a smart political move. He’s been skilled at whipping the House, if nothing else. And he gets shit down. Even if he is a corporate worm, better to keep your friends close…
As it stands, the bill has a gaping flaw in how it administers coverage, but there’s nothing in it that should provoke this kind of outrage.
The legislation guts Medicare Advantage (something a long time in coming), makes a token effort to scale back Medicare Plan D, and seeds billions of dollars into revitalizing and expanding Medicaid – a program that any true corporate whore (re: Bush or Reagen) would have happily killed at any opportunity.
Christ buddy, grow a pair. If your spirit is that fucking fragile, get the hell out of politics. The bill disappointed millions the moment it didn’t have a single payer proposal stabled to it. It disappointed millions more every time a conservative Dem got near it with a budget hacksaw. I mean, holy tap dancing Christ, the Finance Bill affair was the crescendo of disappointment. Getting sold out by Max Baucus like that was painful to watch.
The public option isn’t dead. More than a few Senators would happily pass it separately in reconciliation. And the work Obama has seen through – Lilly Ledbetter, the Franken Amendment to the Defense Bill, Copenhagen summit for better or worse – is as liberal as I’ve seen in my entire fucking lifetime.
So just chill the fuck out. Back off. Take a breather. And maybe divert that passion towards the next round of fights. We’ve still got a climate bill and an immigration bill in the hopper after all. Plenty of opportunity to get disappointed.
BethanyAnne
I’m not asking this out of snark or anything – I really don’t know. Gitmo is a military facility, right? What stops Obama from ordering the military to transfer everyone to the brig at Fort Hood or some other continental US military base?
Dannie22
So if your a white president you 4 years to complete an agenda and if your a black president you get 11 months. Thanks. I just wanted to know the rules. Happy Kwanzaa bitches!
Dreggas
@Jim C:
Why don’t you go have yourself a nice big cup of shut the fuck up.
jenniebee
OT this Amazon thread is NOT TO BE MISSED IN ALL CAPS
gwangung
Kinda ironic, for someone using the term “uncle tom.” How persistent has housing discrimination been? And job discrimination? And how long has it taken for a Hollywood studio to trust a black man at the top of credits?
jibeaux
I’m writing to my Senators on one of these.
aimai
You know, Woodrow, I did watch Obama rather closely during the campaign, and read his books, ‘n everything. Hell, I even voted for the guy even though he *definitely wasn’t angry enough for me.* But I’m not asking him to get angry for anger’s sake or as therapy. I’m asking him to demonstrate some of the passion that his supporters, among whom I belong, need to see in order for them to get passionate enough to get out and vote. I ask him to do it as a form of political theater, not because he “really” is one thing or another.
As for the uses of anger–well, I have news for you. Anger is very useful, when coupled with a call to action. Furthermore I’m not asking Obama to play the victim card, a la Palin/McCain–this isn’t a call to his troops to defend him but a call to his fellow citizens in a joint struggle that has yet to be won. The biggest danger to Obama’s presidency, and to our country, is complaisancy and/or despair on the part of Democratic and progressive voters. Obama should be moving in the direction of firming up support for his policies with his voters, not murmering this was the best he could do under the circs.
aimai
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@Ash Can:
Pretty much this.
The core issue isn’t that I’m pissied people are pissed. It’s that’s they’re NOT ORGANIZING TO CHANGE SHIT, BUT TO FLING IT.
We have a lot of challenges in this land. Cutting off Obama — our best change to make change — because some of his decisions aren’t what we want, is deeply stupid. There is no magic for making a more liberal President or Congress, for getting more liberal Nelsons and Liebermans.
There’s just Hard Work, and Heartbreak. That’s what the GOP has mostly forgotten, and what I fear others on my side are risking doing.
Ana Gama
@aimai:
THIS!
NR
The problem is not the Senate. The problem is the Democratic party.
George W. Bush got everything he wanted from the Senate for eight years, including the period when the Democrats controlled it.
mk3872
HuffPo already is running with this as another Obama failure.
BTW, it is reeeeeally cold here in Philly today.
I have NO DOUBT that Obama’s lack of experience and poor negotiating skills led to this horrible weather on the east coast this week.
Sandlapper
@aimai: I could be wrong (I thought I was once, but I was mistaken), but I suspect we will see more of the passionate side of Obama in the months leading up to the elections. I have seen more than one hint of this in some of his public statements the last few weeks.
However, I don’t hold my breath to see him “angry.” I believe that one of the reasons he had such widespread appeal last year was the fact that he didn’t allow the “angry black man” caricature to gain a foothold. Frankly, I think it would have done more harm than good for him to do so.
Midnight Marauder
@Jim C:
Says the guy calling Obama an “uncle tom.”
Yikes!
Ailuridae
@NR:
Sure, Social Security privatization and Immigration Reform would like to have a word with you.
jibeaux
@NR:
Oh, that’s how Social Security got privatized.
Not that I’m arguing that Democrats don’t suck. But the system is totally dysfunctional. It’s a recipe for gridlock.
jibeaux
@Ailuridae:
jinx!
Sandlapper
@mk3872: Everything bad in the world has been Obama’s fault on Huffpo since the inauguration. It has become the online equivalent to the National Enquirer.
The folks that run the place are interested only in one thing – page views.
NR
@Ailuridae: Fine. Almost everything.
But as I recall, neither of those things passed the House, either.
GReynoldsCT00
@Maude:
He’s insulting our fearless leader Tu… I mean JC. Nice huh?
danimal
@jenniebee: THANK YOU JESUS FOR JENNIEBEE’S GUIDANCE IN FINDING YOUR HOLY INSTRUCTIONS. MY CHILDREN WILL THANK YOU AS WELL.
eemom
@mk3872:
“I have NO DOUBT that Obama’s lack of experience and poor negotiating skills led to this horrible weather on the east coast this week.”
Ya got that right. Jane Hamsher’s got a “Kill the Weather” petition up right now at FDL. Don’t miss her on Fox News tonight doing kissy-kissy with George Will on climate change denial.
cleek
if Obama is not impeached by this time next year, the Great Experiment that is America will be nothing but wisps of memory held dearly by the few hardy survivors who struggle against tyranny to keep the dream alive. Obama’s failure is too immense for our dear country to withstand.
Malron
Current HuffPost headline: McCain Emerges As Front Man In GOP Efforts To Claim Reform Mantle
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The teabaggers, Jane Hamsher, HuffPost and the manic-progressives are uniting in a perfect storm of stupid against the Obama administration.
Get ready for McCain/Palin 2012 – the rematch. If he lives that long.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@aimai:
Then you know what you got, which is much of my point.
I, myself, have had enough of people ginning up emotions to get votes. I said 4 years ago over at the old TPM Cafe I didn’t want to vote that way again, and the impression I got from this last election was that a goodly number of people felt like that. I assure you that, in terms of support, organizing, and “boots on the ground”, the Angry Left wasn’t a huge part of the Obama campaign. In my city, there were a lot more disaffected GOPers than Kossack-types working the campaign, even in the General.
Anger, organized anger, can be wise. It can also get you quasi-astroturfed teabaggers. It can get you believing that ends justify means, and there’s too much of that everywhere, including in the current Administration, for me to want more, even if it’s “to the good.”
Obama can, and did, win without appealing to our collective anger overmuch. If that was your point, I might support it. But asking someone who ran on Hope to switch to anger seems, at the best, disingenuous. Coupled with your belief that acting like the Bush Admin for “our side” will mean “we win”, given how that turned out, makes me wary of your goals and methodologies.
Comrade Mary
Golly, I think we need to turn all these frowns upside down!
Simon’s Cat: Hot Spot (for Lady Smudge)
Simon’s Cat: Snow Business (Part 1)
Midnight Marauder
@NR:
Really? He got privatized Social Security and immigration reform through the Senate? That’s amazing! And here I was thinking that the “successes” of getting the Iraq War launched and Medicare Part D were the only items on Bush’s domestic agenda to make it through Congress.
Learn something new every day, I guess!
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@NR:
The party has changed rapidly over the last decade. The House reflected that change first because of their two year election cycle. With an election only every 4 year, the WH less so, and the Senate on a 6 year cycle even less. The Senate we have now is basically the Democratic party of the 1990s and early 2000s trapped like a fly in amber. It should be no surprise that in a party which was re-energized and made both more aggressive and more progressive by the Bush years, we would end up with a situation where in terms of progressiveness and partisanship we have:
Grassroots > House > WH > Senate
GReynoldsCT00
@Comrade Mary:
“Snow Business” LOLZ!
El Tiburon
New Balloon Juice Rule:
*NO GRIPING about Obama ever.
*All things are equal. Closing Gitmo by a specified Date = Comprehensive Healthcare reform with a robust public option that will define Democrats for a generation.
*Only Greenwald can bitch about Obama, even if all of the other liberal bloggers are saying the same exact thing.
*Anytime anything goes slightly wrong with Obama, Cole with become unhinged with an unhinged post about it accusing liberal bloggers of becoming unhinged regardless if they even commented on said topic.
Midnight Marauder
@NR:
The point. You missed it.
Da Bomb
@El Tiburon: Well that was a very blanketed and crappy statement.
Nice way to generalize and be full of bullshit at the same time.
That’s a talent.
R-Jud
@jenniebee: I HAVE THE CAPS LOCK ON AND THERE IS A LIGHT BUT THE NUM LOCK IS ON TOO AND WHICH ONE IS JESUS?!
jibeaux
Ooh, his hip is not going to be his friend next time. Come to think of it, neither is Sarah. 2 words: food tester.
Foxhunter
@Malron:
Sgt. Flowbee has to be around here somewhere….
mcd410x
TNC: “The war is long. When you’ve outlasted Strom Thurmond, Joe Lieberman is cake.”
Good words.
jibeaux
@jenniebee:
WE NEED TO POOL OUR MONEY TO GET $135 SO WE CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT THIS THING SAYS ALTHOUGH I’M GUESSING THE GIST OF IT IS PRETTY MUCH WHAT THE TITLE SAYS
clonecone
Team Poutrage wants a progressive version of John Yoo to declare Obama king and give them their ponies. Remember that whole “rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency” thing? The constitution is pretty clear on how a bill becomes a law. Bypassing the senate isn’t an option.
tamied
@jenniebee: Did you look inside that thing? That is very scary.
licensed to kill time
@jenniebee:
Just when I was going to comment about how grumpy it is around this joint lately, I saw this and went over to look and now I am guffawing and I feel a lot better, thanks jenniebee!
“JESUS IS MY CAP LOCK KEY”
( sung to the tune of Jesus is My Aeroplane )
gonna be stuck in my brain ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL day
GReynoldsCT00
@licensed to kill time:
We were having a hell of a good time on the Festivus thread, then it got all serious again. And then a hit and run commenter above.
James K. Polk, Esq.
Anyone else getting the feeling that Republican ratfuckers are trolling the liberal blagosphere to try and stir shit up?
Too many new Nyms with hand-wringing posts about taking their balls and going home to be a coicidence.
The Raven
Folks, enough already. I’m not arguing about health care any more. Instead, let’s talk about civil liberties. Spencer Ackerman, over at FDL, points out that the only reason this prison, and the permission of Congress, is needed at all is because the Obama administration is following through on the Bush II plan of trying these people outside the regular courts. If, instead, the administration abandoned the military commissions, which would be a huge positive step for civil liberties, the administration could simply transfer these people to high-security prisons or repatriate them. As Ackerman puts it, “using the existing justice system is an executive prerogative.”
Sounds like a plan we can get behind, hey? So let’s write the administration. I’m hoping that Ackerman will set up a petition at FDL, but independent letters might also be useful.
Makewi
Rome had a long history of turning power over to a dictator during times of crises. If you told them that they couldn’t have both a Republic and an Empire (or Emperor), they would have looked at you like you were crazy. They did have it. Until they didn’t.
aimai
Look, Woodrow, Obama is not, in fact, that unusual a political figure and he’s certainly not facing an unusual set of political circumstances. Kings and Presidents can choose from a variety of personal styles in ruling, and then they have to make up for what they lack or can’t fake in the people around them. I’m not interested in another round of “what did you expect?” from Obama. I got exactly what I expected. Bully for me!
Obama faces a classic problem–he will probably lose seats at the midterm. He also has a special problem which is that every seat he loses in the Senate deals a body blow to any kind of progressive legislation, actually *any kind of legislation at all.* He can’t afford that. And I, frankly, can’t afford that. Watching this happen and going “oh well, Obama’s Obama! What can you do!” strikes me as the worst kind of egotistical, solipsistic, unpragmatic thinking imaginable in a political sense.
I’m proposing that Obama figure out, and fast, something that is very clear to students of culture and of politics: the people, united, will never be defeated *but you have to unite them*–you can unite them around a cause, or a person, but you’ve got to do it. Obama ran the first campaign on “hope and change” and plenty of his own followers voted for him but took a wait and see attitude towards whether he could get either of them through congress. He’s given us a good show so far and tried pretty hard but major parts of his *and our* agenda is, in fact, stymied *by the opposition.*
Someone has to take the blame in a two party system. If Obama wants to lead he’s going to have to make the argument that he led his fucking heart out and was stopped by something. That’s called being honest with the voters. Its also politic. The one thing he can’t do is act casual and pretend to us that everything is hunky dory. Either we won’t believe him and get angrier. Or we *will* believe him and his own voters will simply stay home and vote.
I don’t understand why you think that anything different will happen? He has to make the case that every single Democratic congressman and Senator must be protected and every single vulnerable Republican must be replaced. He *has* to make that argument at a national level or its left to the dems to make it at the local level and most voters will just tune them out. And the proximate *reason* that he needs to give is that without that electoral support his legislation will die aborning. That’s just the cold hard fact. The Health care Bill gives him a *great* springboard to do just that, if he and his supporters egos don’t get in the way of a purely pragmatic political move.
Here’s the anthropological take on it and why I head for a certain level of anger. Obama may be a superman, totally above anger, but the voters and average citizens are not. Every body blow Obama takes as our president is, symbolically and emotionally an attack on his voters–us. That’s another basic cultural fact. Everyone doesn’t feel that way, but the Republicans know for a fact that most people do. To paraphrase Woody Allen–“everything’s personal.” If Obama is winning, winning winning he and his voters can afford to rise above the insults and the attacks. But if Obama’s signature legislation is less than it could have been–and it definitely is–and further work on climate change, banking, gitmo etc… is also in danger he’d better get serious about standing up for himself because in so doing he’s standing up for us. And only when people feel that they can champion the President will they turn out to vote for him/his party.
It takes a lot to rile the electorate up to the fever pitch to get out and vote. The Democrats simply can’t afford to be above the fray in 2010 and I’m simply suggesting one totally uncontroversial way of asking the voters to join them in the fight.
aimai
JenJen
@jenniebee: OMG EVEN THE “LOOK INSIDE!” FEATURE IS IN ALL CAPS
lolz!!
@Jim C: Same to you.
mk3872
@Sandlapper: Bad news sells, is that it? What’s true for newspapers is true for the Internet, I suppose …
Makewi
@Midnight Marauder:
He also didn’t get a Gay Marriage Amendment or his first choice for Supreme Court pick.
scudbucket
Does anyone know the skinny on Hamsher taking money from Freedomworks?
licensed to kill time
@GReynoldsCT00:
Yeah, that’s how it seems to go lately. And every damn thread comes back to HCR and the same shit gets said over and over again. I am just skipping any HCR stuff anymore.
SICK AND TIRED OF IT ! (says my Jesus key)
Comrade Kevin
Who has been telling you that? The voices in your head?
Mnemosyne
@Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill:
Yep. As I’ve said multiple times, if what I was hearing was, “We are going to primary each and every one of you motherfuckers,” I would be getting in line to get my torch to join the angry mob. But instead we keep getting, “Oh, we’re so demoralized! Oh, I’m never voting again!”
Jesus, people, nut up!
R-Jud
@licensed to kill time:
I think “Jesus key” has legs.
Annie
@Jim C:
LOL. You’re a joke right…
Mnemosyne
@NR:
How did I miss Social Security privatization passing?
Oh, wait, I didn’t, because Bush failed at getting it through. Along with immigration reform and, well, pretty much everything else he wanted after 2006.
But, please, continue rewriting history to give yourself an excuse for sitting on your ass and doing nothing.
soonergrunt
@jenniebee:
That thread is teh awesome. Thanks.
Midnight Marauder
@Makewi:
Please don’t say things that make me agree with you. We’ve gone over this several times before about how uncomfortable it makes me feel.
Thanks.
GReynoldsCT00
@R-Jud:
New Lexicon entry coming right up
arguingwithsignposts
@R-Jud:
jesus key, is that something like alt+shift+command+wolverines? or something. I’m just using my smudge key for the moment.
GReynoldsCT00
HAVE I MISSED THE LINKY TO THE AMAZON THING YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@licensed to kill time:
You can run but you can’t hide from the great HCR debate! It will track you down and find you, wherever you are.
You better watch out.
You better not cry.
Better not pout.
I’m telling you why.
Health Care Reform is coming – to town!
jl
My main gripe with Obama, who lists community organizing on his resume, is that he does not seem interested in continuing his work in community organizing anymore.
His community organizing work now should consist of keeping those who voted for him happy and energized enough, and swing voters happy and energized enough, to vote for a better Congress in 2010.
A better Congress is needed. Obviously.
So what is this dude’s problem?
My hunch is that Obama is still in the mindset of a ‘centrist progressive’ community organizer trying to cut deals for his community as a better and smarter Senator operating in the Senate. But that is not his role anymore. It looks very different to the community. It looks either weak or hypocritical. It does not looke like an honest Senator working in a corrupt system.
Some one needs to clue him in. IMHO. Also.
licensed to kill time
@R-Jud:
You inspired it with this:
Made me spit out my mouth a little bit (ok, a LOTTA bit!)
And Another Thing...
@Malron: OMG, I clicked the link…and it’s yet another attempt to resurrect John McCain. Is there any politician in the last 40 years for whom the Media has had such a love affair? He ran the worst campaign in memory and should apologize every day of his remaining life for trying to put Bible Spice a heart beat away from the Oval Office. His obituary should begin, John McCain, the man who chose Sarah Palin..
HuffPo is in decline…more and more like a tabloid.
R-Jud
@arguingwithsignposts: CAPS LOCK, AWS. The little light is Jesus, telling you not to use birth control because you are ROBBING HIM OF PRIESTHOOD
KITTEHSCHILDREN. (Couldn’t be happier that you named her Smudge, BTW. Great name.)@GReynoldsCT00: Link is here. It was probably made invisible by the JESUS CAPS in the original post.
Mnemosyne
@arguingwithsignposts:
Psst. You may want to see if there’s a “macro” key on your camera. The one on mine has a little picture of a flower. Then we can properly see Smudge in all of her fuzzy glory.
Makewi
@Midnight Marauder:
Apologies. To make it up to you I’ll point out that Obama’s latest Executive Order (EO 12425) exempting Interpol from the legal constraints American law-enforcement operates under is probably proof that Obama is trying to destroy American Sovereignty.
At the very least I want to know why he did it.
gex
It sucks to be held hostage by the political representation for large tracts of empty space.
licensed to kill time
@GReynoldsCT00:
The link is here, hiding in the Jesus caps:
@jenniebee:
ETA: HA! Mindhive, R-Jud
GReynoldsCT00
@R-Jud:
OH.MY.GOD!!
R-Jud
@GReynoldsCT00: I know, right? Christmas has come early in the Jud household.
arguingwithsignposts
THERE IS A LIGHT THAT NEVER GOES OUT. OH NOZ!
ETA: there’s a link there that doesn’t show up because it’s all caps.
R-Jud
@arguingwithsignposts: A BUCKTOOTH GIRL IN LUXEMBOURG. OH YES!
licensed to kill time
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Right you are! Very next newest thread, and AWAAAAAAAAAY we go again…..
I CAN’T TAKE IT ANYMORRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
(sorry, Jesus key just took control there)
Malron
@scudbucket: I hope that was snark.
someguy
Jim C, save the Uncle Tom references for Uncle Clarence Thomas. Michael Steele, of course, is not an Uncle Tom. He’s a House… um… Former Lieutenant Governor. But at least he’s honest enough to admit that when he’s in a room with Republicans, they’re all terrified of him. Too bad we’ve had to wait 150+ years for a Republican who is honest about Republican racism…
Something Fabulous
@arguingwithsignposts: OOOH, SMUDGES!
someguy
And Makewi, it’s a real bitch when you can’t play global hegemon any longer, isn’t it?
zhak
You know, I don’t think the problem is either / or. I think the problem is that both the Senate and the Executive Branch are failing Americans and the world.
It’s all very well to say that, well, hell, they’re better than giving the keys back to the Republicans. They are. But that’s a pretty low hurdle to clear.
Da Bomb
@jenniebee: THIS IS TEH AWESOMENESS THING OF AWESOME EVAH!!
Thank you! I didn’t know that the CAPS LOCK key had the power to give Jesus the wheel. I haz excitement!!
Martin
I approve of this thread. Moar plz.
arguingwithsignposts
@jenniebee:
OK, I HAZ TO CONFESS, I CAN’T EVEN READ THE FIRST COMMENT WITHOUT BUSTING OUT LAUGHING.
Martin
I have to note that a friend of mine has designated the CAPS LOCK light on the keyboard as the ‘Jesus Loves Me Light’ based solely on those goddamn right-wing emails that get forwarded around. It really put the pieces together for why the CAPS LOCK brigade exists.
ellie
@arguingwithsignposts: I like comment that states, This is why we can’t have nice things …
Indeed
soonergrunt
@Makewi:
You really aren’t very bright.
I did this thing, you’ve probably seen people on TV do it, called READING.
It can be hard for the untrained, but you type more or less coherent sentences, so I have to assume that you can identify the letters on the keyboard, which implies the at least rudimentary ability to read.
Had you actually spent the seven whole minutes that I spent googling the original executive order, Clinton’s ammendment to it in 1995, and the law to which it refers, International Organizations Immunities Act,
then did some critical thinking (here is where I suspect you fell down) then you would know that nothing here really changed. Interpol employees in the US who are not US citizens do not have to pay Federal Withholding on income or Social Security anymore–they did get their incomes withheld but then got the full withholding returned to them in previous years, and also that Interpol can hold property in the US, just like any other organization to include the Catholic Church, and that Interpol has the same rights as any other property holder.
The alternative here is that you just dropped the little blurb hoping that somebody would freak out about some conspiracy to give away US sovereignty, but I while I do think you are that morally challenged, you are clearly not devious or smart.
BTW–it took almost as long to type that little screed as it did to research the subject, so MAKEWI CONSPIRACY NUT FAIL!
Michael D.
John Cole:
Why, whenever you write a post about Obama not being able to get this or that done, do you ALWAYS seem to have to take a dig at gay people? Every time.
I certainly know you are not anti-gay, but there are a lot more people and groups out there who have complained about Obama’s lack of (or perceived lack of) action on various issues.
That doesn’t seem to matter to you. You always have to get the specific dig in at gay people. Always.
arguingwithsignposts
LOL.
MattR
@arguingwithsignposts:
soonergrunt
@Michael D.:
I didn’t read this as a slam on gay people. Am I wrong?
I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I really don’t know.
Paris
How much does he need? Can we take up a collection to close Guatanamo? What happened to all that web 2.0 shit everyone keeps talking bout? I thought if you needed something done, you just made a website.
Chuck Butcher
@gex:
Hmmm, Oregon and Wyden and Merkley? Maybe geography ain’t your friend? The Senate rule about filibusters is something other than the formation of the Senate. That shouldn’t be taken to mean I particularly like the Senate we have.
Jay B.
At least you made a perfectly honest comparison between Gitmo and the health care bill, seeing how the political dynamic and consequences are exactly the same.
Elie
@Da Bomb:
Y’all are tearing me up! LMAO!
Corner Stone
@James K. Polk, Esq.:
I thought Cole left the Republican party?
smiley
@soonergrunt: I don’t get it either.
Da Bomb
@Michael D.: There are alot of people in the “blogosphere”, which consists of like 2% of the electorate. But I guess that’s a whole bunch of people.
Michael D.
@soonergrunt: Whenever John writes a post about people complaining that Barack Obama is not getting something done, and they feel he should use his bully pulpit more, John does seem to take a bit of delight in taking a shot at gay people who complained that Obama could have effectively ended DADT by executive order. That argument is a legitimate one, yet the commentariat here went bonkers about that by saying things like, “Obama can’t end DADT – only congress can.”
The counter-argument was that Obama can’t overturn federal drug laws either – only congress can. But Obama did, by executive order, HALT arrests in California of people who supply medical marijuana. Growing and distributing marijuana is a Federal Felony crime and is punishable by lengthy prison terms and hefty fines.
But, thankfully, Barack Obama – the person who we’ve learned here cannot overturn federal law on his own, in fact, CAN put an end to its enforcement.
And I didn’t hear anyone complaining about it when drug legalization advocates were pressing for Obama to do something about enforcement of federal law in California.
But when the gays ask him to suspend enforcement of federal law, all hell breaks loose and, all of a sudden, Obama is powerless.
Yes, I know when a Republican president eventually comes to power, his initial instinct will be to want to overturn that executive order. Who cares? Gays will have served in the military, openly, for 7-8 years. And I would be willing to bet that, after that long, a president who sees that NOTHING harmful has happened would be VERY reluctant to overturn the executive order – because people would then know it ISN’T about unit cohesion but, rather, about republicans being anti-gay.
That is a VERY logical argument FOR Obama issuing the executive order.
But he’s all of a sudden powerless to do so. And John John seems to enjoy taking little digs at the gay people who wonder, correctly, why he hasn’t done it.
Elie
@James K. Polk, Esq.:
Yes, it does ocurr to me.
However, I think that we are also seeing more differentiation of the left progressives as well — less unified front and definitely more of the libertarian point of view rather than strictly liberal. I would even add a Soviet or two in the discussions involving coercing change rather than influencing or working to make it…
Da Bomb
@Elie: I never thought about it, but you are right. Their views are leaning very libertarian more so than liberal.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Michael D.: This.
Annie
@jenniebee:
You are absolutely right. But, I think Republicans don’t really want the status quo to change. If they ever really achieved something on their agenda — like a total ban on abortions — what would the run on??? How would they raise money? How they be able to paint the rest of us as “godless, lazy, immoral baby killers, who only want government handouts and entitlements so we don’t have to work because we are in bed with terrorists and weak on national defense? And, to top it off, we have tossed God out of our public schools, and hate small businesses.
Republicans are the ultimate victims, and they need that virtuous victimhood to keep their campaigns going, and the money rolling in…Achieving anything on their platform would take that away, and then, they would have to actually live with the consequences of their actions — which they don’t want to do.
Or maybe not…
soonergrunt
@Michael D.:
Thank you for your response. I can sympathize with your frustration.
I’ve served with men and women who I knew to be gay and men and women whom I suspected to be gay. Either way for me it didn’t really matter as long as they could do their MOS duties.
Having said that, yes, the President can and should modify the executive order that created the DADT policy. That executive policy codifies enforcement of the federal law that declares that homosexuality is incompatible with military service.
I could see an executive order stating that discharges under that law and its supporting military regulations are immediately suspended and that anyone discharged under that law in the last two years can return to active duty service immediately with the same rank, time in service and time in grade. I think that would be a great idea.
I also think though that ending the law once and for all is the right thing to do and that somebody in the US Senate needs to sponsor a bill to do just that.
I’d love to see the caterwauling on the right from people who have never served a day in uniform try to tell us how this will damage military readiness.
Back to the main point, I do think that the President has chosen to keep his powder dry on this particular issue, instead of forcing the conversation. I’m sure that electoral and senatorial math figure into those calculations, but that doesn’t make it any less morally weak.
Midnight Marauder
@Michael D.:
I think you need to do yourself a favor in the new year and realize that a) DADT is a fucking law and the president can’t just make it all vanish with an executive order; but more importantly, b) understand that–even if he could–President Obama is never going to take that kind of unilateral action on ending something like DADT. It’s not his style and it’s not smart politically, at this current moment in time.
And for the record, I think you’re just pulling your usual bullshit of showing up and looking to pick a fight with John about something. You’re borderline delusional if you saw that as a shot at gay people, and not a shot at the people who have been running around recently screaming that OBAMA IS A FAILURE BECAUSE HE DIDN’T TAKE ACTION NOW!
scudbucket
@Malron: No, no snark. It was this comment yesterday from Mary that got me curious.
Chuck Butcher
I think a preview of the conference between House and Senate regarding HCR will look something like this:
Lots of noise, lots and lots.
No substantive change. I don’t think the Nelson/Nebraska carve out survives as a solitary one. Abortion won’t go farther than the Nelson version. The Lieberman/Nelson shit-throwers are where they’re willing to go leftward or can be pushed under this scenario.
What I suggest is that this thing will get no better or worse with some tinkering aound the edges of the Senate bill. That edges may be debatable depending on how you feel about Nebraska and its edge.
Michael D.
@Midnight Marauder:
like federal drug laws, for example…
Ahmmm, yes, he could. Did you even read what I wrote
Then why did he end enforcement of federal drug laws in California???
77% of the American public supports ending DADT.
UPDATE: From the Christian Science Monitor
If this is not politically smart, then I don’t know what is…
Elie
@Annie:
Hmmm – excellent point that I had not thought of but you are right…True governance is about getting things done. If you don’t really believe in government, why would you want anything done? But then, if you don’t say you want to do anything, why then would you want to run for office? THAT to me is even more fundamental
Makewi
@soonergrunt:
That whole screed about how I can’t read and how you are so much smarter, and then you can’t even be bothered to read it correctly. I know you like to think your shit don’t stink, but Christ man try a little harder will you? Have a little respect for yourself.
The original act in whole
Here’s Obama’s EO which changes Reagans, not Clinton’s, previous change to the act.
I find it fascinating that you would simply skip over Section 2(c) having to do with the immunity against searching of assets. Since you are so much smarter, it must have been done on purpose, as was your misattribution of which EO was superceded by this one. Way to go dipshit.
So, once again for the perpetually slow imbeciles from Oklahoma, why would Obama choose to allow Interpol immunity from search?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Michael D.:
Puffing up is one of the oldest rhetorical tradtions of the Intratubes. It’s not about “gay people.” It’s about LGBT rhetoric on specific political issues. That’s not about all gay people.
But that said, LGBT is the most politically inept bloc of people I have seen in my lifetime, maybe next to the Ku Klux Klan and Ross Perot supporters. Demanding change and calling anyone who even questions your political motives and strategies a bigot is one of the most dumbass political approaches in the history of dumbass.
In what fantasyland do you envision military policy at that level being set by popular polls?
Midnight Marauder
@Michael D.:
Yes, I’ve read what you wrote, in addition to all the other things you’ve said around here in the past. Like soonergrunt said, there are certain areas related to DADT that the President could affect or mitigate with an executive order. However, that does not even come close to an actual full repeal of the law, which is what I’m guessing you would want (I know that’s what I want).
@Michael D.:
I guess that’s why I said “President Obama is never going to take that kind of unilateral action on ending something like DADT.” I don’t view drug policy–even relating to marijuana–to be anywhere near the same ballpark as DADT, regardless of the political spectrum we’re evaluating both issues through.
And I’m sure that will do us a lot of good when the Republicans seize hold of the BREAKING STORY that President Obama signed a stealth, midnight executive order to unleash a roving band of baby eating gays into our military. It goes back to his strategy of letting the legislature legislate. When Congress is ready to move on these issues, the president will be waiting for them.
Chuck Butcher
@Michael D.:
I’d have to guess, not being BO, but the favorable to gays POV would be that the difference between medical grass and DADT would be that one is a policy regarding law enforcement and one is about basic civil rights. If I were gay I’d prefer a civil rights approach over a law enforcement approach, despite delay.
If I were facing discharge I’m sure I’d be pissed to get the axe in the face of civil rights and inaction on it. Don’t ask me how fucked the Senate could make this. (especially in the face of listening to the Senators congratulate themselves on ‘leadership’ and ‘courage’)
Blue Raven
@Michael D.: Right. Because telling a bunch of Federal cops to skip a subset of lawbreakers is EXACTLY the same as telling the entire military to man up about queers in foxholes.
aimai
Angusthegodof meat,
Don’t you ever get tired of congratulating yourself on missing the god damned point? Michael D posted the comment 77percent of the American public supports ending DADT in response to the specific statement that ending DADT “was not popular.”
I’m not gay and I’m offended by your hectoring of “gay people” in general for not having the same policy priorities and ideas that you do.
aimai
WaterGirl
OT, I have been checking for open threads all day so I can ask about software to sync certain folders on my macs before I have to leave town in the morning.
John, could we have an open thread soon, pretty please?
soonergrunt
@Makewi: OK, fuckwit. If I had known that insulting you would get you to do your homework, I would’ve recommended that to your remedial ed teachers long ago. Sorry for the slip.
So you’re saying that the President’s executive order merely states that Interpol will have the same property rights as other international organizations that have charter under the International Organizations Immunities Act?
So now you’re using that critical thinking skill that I suspected earlier was where you fell down. Good for you, but remember that you have to use it every so often or it will go dormant again. It’s not like riding a bike you know.
Now that you’ve taken that first step, take the giant leap and tell us all what exactly it means that Obama is restoring rights that Interpol had in the US before the original executive order, under a law called the International Organizations Immunities Act.
I’ll give you a hint so that this doesn’t take all day (I’ve got shit to pick out from between my toes here in Oklahoma after all): one of the words in the title of the original law is “Immunities.”
Since you’re dumber than a bag hammers (and half as useful) I’ll tell you–it restores the immunities (hence the name of the original law) that Interpol originally enjoyed with respect to its property holdings and staff in the United States.
John Cole
@Michael D.: How was that a dig at gay people? It was a dig at the shitheads in the House and Senate who would not vote for DOMA and DADT to end.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@aimai:
I’m not hectoring gay people in general, you ass.
I am telling MD that he is full of shit. He’s the one who thinks he represents all gay people, or that any reference to any gay issue position is somehow about all gay people.
I know what he meant. He’s the one who doesn’t get this, not me.
John Cole
Seriously, how the hell is that “taking a shot at gay people?”
General Winfield Stuck
@John Cole:
Highlighting their issue, or rights, or whatever is the same as not caring. Or something. My brain thinks of the irony of it all. And I gets another headache for the trouble.
Chuck Butcher
@soonergrunt:
You and I are going to have some real goddam problems regarding the utility of hammers and I use ’em.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@John Cole:
Because it makes Gay Baby Jesus cry.
soonergrunt
@Blue Raven:
No, but it is exactly like, or at least awful damn close to telling the entire military to man up about blacks in foxholes, which if memory serves was done by executive order. In fact it’s even better because at the time that Truman integrated the armed forces by executive order, the public opinion was still mostly against doing so.
Bar the enforcement and let the Congress follow.
I don’t think that Michael D is right about John mentioning this as a slam at gay people, but I do think Michael D is right about doing this thing.
Makewi
@soonergrunt:
It’s a desperate act to try to restate what I am saying in an attempt to pretend you still get it. I said what I said, here it is again since you were too stupid to understand it the first time.
Now, see if you can speculate in that pea brain of yours why giving immunity against search to an organization tasked with investigating others, whose recommendations lead to the incarceration of others, might be a tad bit fucking problematic.
Idiot.
Midnight Marauder
@aimai:
Actually, the comment that he was responding to with that figure was that President Obama unilaterally moving on DADT via executive order would not be “smart politically.” That’s a whole different can of worms from being “popular.”
Just sayin’.
soonergrunt
@Chuck Butcher: I pound things with them. What, exactly do you do?
Da Bomb
@soonergrunt: Even after Truman signed an executive order, the military was fully intergrated until about 6 years later.
My uncle served in WW2 and Korea. He told stories of still being in segregated troops long after the executive order got signed.
Here’s a link to an article that talks about the executive order and the idea it’s changes everything instantly.
blog.reidreport.com/2009/10/harry-truman-barack-obama-and-the-mythic-executive-order/
If we can get a bill passed by the legislature, then it can go into effect immediately.
jenniebee
@R-Jud: I think it’s a runoff between “JESUS CAPS” and ALLCAPS BIBLE. As in, “Some people are spiritual, some are religious, and some follow the ALLCAPS BIBLE”
Just Some Fuckhead
Haha.. a gay thread here and an HCR thread there. We need an Israeli/Palestinian flame war for the motherfucking hat trick.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Anti-semite!
jenniebee
@arguingwithsignposts:
Did you make it to this one?
DZ
I have been a liberal/left wing activist for 40 years. I have achieved nothing. No single payer, no wars prevented or ended, racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc are rampant, corporations are far more powerful not less, environmental rape and devastation are greater not less, etc. Total fail.
I’m tired. I don’t have the energy for it anymore. I now have options that I didn’t have 3 months ago. I’m picking up my belongings and leaving, for good. I will get married, become a citizen of another country and move on.
kay
@Michael D.:
I’m with you. I think he can and should order that it not be enforced.
I think it would result in insane media-GOP screeching for about two days, but everything does. I have no idea why he doesn’t act.
I think he says it’s a national security issue, or a workplace fairness issue, or a basic human decency issue, and refuses any more questions, and walks away.
Some things aren’t complicated.
Midnight Marauder
@jenniebee:
I am pretty sure that is an exact quote from the Bible. Let me check…
Yep, it’s definitely in there.
arguingwithsignposts
@jenniebee:
I am still reading that thread in small portions, only because the lulz hurt so much, but that is classic.
OT, but mac? pc? moar butthurt plz?
soonergrunt
@Makewi: Oh, let’s see here.
Interpol has no arrest or investigative powers in the United States. As a matter of fact, Interpol has no arrest or investigative powers at all.
It’s a glorified information sharing organization, a lot like the UN–no real power to do anything of its own accord, has to ask for budget money from member states. Guess what? US law enforcement can’t search UN stuff either. So fucking what? Has there been a sudden increase in Interpol smuggling weapons, drugs, or child pornography around the US that wasn’t getting a lot of press? In fact, it’s better than the UN, because a US citizen occasionally gets to be the Secretary General of Interpol. Like right now.
Research never hurt anyone. You’ve seen people on TV do it, I’m sure.
I’d tell you to think before you say something stupid, but I know that’s a lost cause.
jenniebee
@Midnight Marauder: Plus there’s that “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, Render unto God what is God’s” thing, which clearly means WHERES MY $40, CHRISTIAN BITCHEZ?
Midnight Marauder
@jenniebee:
It’s a shame that we can only wonder if someone like Joan of Arc had conversations like this with God when they spoke:
smiley
Ain’t that the truth. If this is how BJ threads have been going lately, I’m glad I haven’t been around. Peace all. We’re making progress, whether you like it or not.
D-Chance.
This administration misses a lot of deadlines, doesn’t it…
Michael D.
@John Cole: It just seems to me that every single time you need an example of how not to do things, you seem to invoke gay people.
Trust me. I know you 100% support gay people, if not their tactics. I know you support repeal of DADT and DOMA. I get that. But when I read this:
…it sounds like the same thing you were using to rail against gay people when they were saying stuff like “Obama should use his bully pulpit…” etc.
I realize now that I was being a little harsh with you. Call it the benefit of shutting up for an hour or so and thinking about it.
For the rest of you, who think that the support of 77% of the public doesn’t matter when considering banning the policy, and make statements like:
…well, you are being obtuse. Allowing gay people to serve openly is about the lowest level consideration the military would ever have to make these days. Now, removing the military from Iraq in 18 months because a majority of people want it or closing Guantanamo for the same reason ARE major policy decisions. You can bet your paycheck that Barack Obama is in office because a majority of Americans elected him to do just those two things and more.
Ending DADT – a major policy decision? My ass.
Michael D.
And, by the way, the military and its commander in chief act on behalf of the people. The last I checked, we weren’t in a dictatorship. If the majority of people want it to do something (within the law and moral), it does it. If it doesn’t, then the next time we have an election, we elect someone who will command the military to do what we want.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
They act in the way that they believe is in the best interests of the people, and the country. Not what the people supposedly said in a recent poll. Polls have no legal effect in this country.
We do not have direct democracy in this country, and you should hope that we never do.
Did you finish high school? What did they teach you there about how all this works?
Now, your next move is to call me a bigot because I don’t agree with you. Don’t skip that step, it’s important.
kay
@Michael D.:
I think it’s a great idea. A moratorium on enforcement. I hadn’t even considered it. The C in C has huge powers under anything national security, and it’s absolutely justified there.
I don’t know the legal angles, but I think he can and should do it. If anyone (Congress, military, courts) wants to challenge the order, let them.
Shalimar
Because it would start out as a progressive piece of legislation and end with an amendment to cut gay people into pieces and feed them to Bart Stupak’s dog?
Sleeper
If the job was so hard I guess he shouldn’t have spent two years trying to convince us to give it to him. He’s the President, he gets the blame when things don’t go well. That’s the way it goes. Life’s not fair.
But, but, the Senate, they’re just so…unreasonable. Hey, too fucking bad. It’s his job to make them see reason. I don’t care how hard it is. It gets really tiresome hearing people complain to Mitch and Murray about how it’s not Obama’s fault because the leads are weak.
This is his job. He wanted it, so he gets the blame when he can’t get things done. Sorry.
Sly
@Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle:
In most cases they represent what they think is the will of their constituents, mitigated by the contributions of certain interest groups. The compromise that results from various regional interests negotiating for what they want is, in theory, reflects a larger popular will.
The Thompson/Gitmo debacle is different. The majority of the Illinois delegation supports it, as does the state government. Previously the argument was “Who the hell would want terrorists in their state? Not in my backyard!” After the obvious counterargument was made, the resistance shifted to demagogues, outside the area in question, stomping their feet and shouting.
Republicans had made the bet that their pissing and moaning would keep Gitmo operating in perpetuity, and it seems that they have gotten more traction on this than other contentious issues because it’s pretty much an either/or issue. Either you bring detainees to U.S. soil, or you don’t.
The Illinois delegation probably will handle this like your typical pork project. They’ll sign on to whatever project some other delegation wants in exchange for their support on this, if they and the President push hard enough for it.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Sleeper:
This reminds me a lot of the computer generated voice on the automated checkout machine at Safeway.
As soon as I pay, and get a receipt, the thing starts saying “Please remove your items” over and over again. And again. And again.
It’s really helpful. No matter how much time I need to get my items bagged properly using my hoof, that constant “Please remove your items” really helps me and makes the time go faster.
Michael D.
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
To my knowledge, I’ve never called anyone here a bigot – at least not the people who share John’s politics (which is pretty much MY politics) so you’re basically putting words in my mouth that I never use to make a stupid point.
Speaking of “stupid” – It’s possible I may have called someone here stupid, because some of the things said here are – such as what I quoted from you above.
Finally, do you HONESTLY believe this country is not ruled by polls? What school did you go to? The whole political process is a poll. An election is a poll. Majority wins. If the politicians don’t do what the majority wants, in the next POLL, those politicians are kicked out. Did you miss that civics lesson?
If support for health care reform was 20%, trust me, it would NOT be on the agenda. Lieberman, Stupak, and Nelson weren’t a pain in the ass because they don’t support reform. They were doing what they were doing because they believe that the only way they could get money from the people who fund their re-elections (by a majority of their voters) was to do what they did.
If the majority of people in the South wanted government run healthcare, every single senator from here would be supporting it.
The country is, ideally, governed by politicians who do what is right. But that idealism is a fantasy. It’s governed by elected officials doing what the majority of people want so they can win that POLL every two, four, or six years. And, therefore, not a lot of good, necessary things get done.
But your inability to understand this does not make you a bigot, and I would not call you that. If I ever call anyone a bigot, it’s because that person deserves it. Just because you are ignorant, does not make you a bigot.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Uh, right, right.
( rolls eyes )
You win, I can’t argue with logic like that. If you think that polls are the quivalent of elections, then you really are stupider than I thought you were, which honestly I did not think was possible.
That’s right, Michael. The government and military have thrashed with this for years and years JUST TO PISS OFF YOU FUCKING HOMOS.
That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?
Sleeper
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
What’s even more helpful that that is constantly making excuses for the man, obviously. If we all cut him slack he’ll be prodded into working harder.
It’s not our job, as citizens, to go easy on the president because, you know, it’s hard work and stuff. Getting the blame goes with the job. Sorry if you disagree.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@ts:
He did that because he is such a passionate Obama supporter.
/cough ratfucking teabagger /cough
“
Anyone else getting the feeling thatRepublican ratfuckers are trolling the liberal blagosphere to try and stir shit up?”Yes they are.
I have to admit that I am starting to get pissed that Obama has not used his bully pulpit to angrily push for a gay global warming public option DADT detainee free health care bill for teabaggers in Afghanistan.
I thought he was all things to all teabaggers?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
The majority of the people in the South think the earth is 6000 years old and that Jesus is coming in time for the next election.
Who cares what they think?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Sleeper:
Of course I disagree. The president is not obligated to get up and read the LGBT blogs every morning and then run downstairs to the Oval Office and start making phone calls.
Reelection is in 2012. On that election day, the real report card gets written. Everything ranted about meantime is just to get blog pageviews and tv clickthroughs. It’s bullshit. It’s theater. And in Michael’s case, it’s annoying WATB crapola that isn’t worth the pixels it takes to display it on your screen.
Between now and then I am pretty reluctant to presume to tell Obama how to do his job today. My vote for him pretty much gave him a four-year window to get some things done. That’s 48 months, of which 11 have passed so far.
celticdragon
@aimai:
You rock!
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Yes, that’s technically true. It’s also the “I will bitch at him like a shrew because I can, even if it does no fucking good for anyone anywhere” argument.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Jane Hamsher and Grover Norquist have joined forces and are demanding that Rahm resign. So Jane and Grover are giving each others supporters a reacharound?
Well isn’t that bipartisan.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Cute rhetoric, but I don’t find that saying that bitching that somebody has not completed all his assigned tasks in 23% of the available time is unreasonable, is the same thing “making excuses.”
Any more than it is unreasonable to say that for LGBT activists to stand here on the blogs and scream “Why do we have to wait — waaaaaaaah” is shitty, annoying, counteproductive, and stupid.
It’s just a matter of opinion. If we are still here a year from now wondering where DADT reform is going to come from, I might consider the possibility that there’s a beef — and I know beef, okay?
But, not now.
celticdragon
@jenniebee:
That was certainly entertaining…
celticdragon
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
There will be no movement on it next year.
Do you have any idea who the “point man” on DADT is in the Senate??
Holy Joe.
I shit you not.
We will be asked to wait…again and again…for the second term, and than the end of the second term, and than we will need to look for the next candidate. It will never be “the right time”.
soonergrunt
@fuckwit, err uhhh dipshit, oh ummm yeah–stupid motherfucker with a dumbass name that implies pissing yourself:
I just realized what your issue is. Interpol has as part of its charter the mission to share information on, and assist in the pursuit of war criminals.
Liz Cheney, is that you? They won’t smuggle your dad out of the country in the trunk of a car, so don’t worry.
They’d get a fucking ticker-tape parade and first class airline tickets if God is truly just.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
No, didn’t know that. I didn’t even know he was gay.
But all seriousness aside, what’s his relationship with the Pentagon crowd? I have no idea.
And, how did he get to be the point man on this? Is it possible that he is playing the HCR card for his insurance benefactors back home, in return for services to be rendered on DADT next year? Who knows what ugly things are going on behind closed doors back there?
But I sure it will all turn around if Joe just listens to Michael. Joe is a sucker for maudlin sanctimony.
Corner Stone
@Sleeper: Make him do it!
But could you back off a little first?
Just Some Fuckhead
Shorter Cow: I just cain’t quit you, Brown Jesus.
Sleeper
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Well, bully for you, no pun intended. I’m glad you’re satisfied to say nothing until 2012. Not sure why that required an actual comment, your silence would have sufficed. But I do feel like discussing the matter, so that’s what I’ll do.
It seems ridiculous, but there’s an endless number of people here carrying on about how tired they are of the people criticizing how Obama did X. Hey, don’t read our comments then. None of this matter until 2012 anyway, so why even bother to take part in the conversation.
Sleeper
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Okay, then sit there and say nothing. That’s your right. Have fun with that, I guess.
Ruemara
@Jim C:
For the uncle tom statement, double fuck you with a 2×4.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Farming subsidies.
Sleeper
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
I am sure you don’t. For my part, when someone doesn’t do what I want, or do it well enough, and someone else gives reasons why I should stop pointing this out, that’s called making excuses. Now, we can argue whether or not those are valid excuses, obviously. But that’s a separate conversation.
They have a right to scream about it. They shouldn’t have to wait. It’s not counterproductive, because being quiet hasn’t gotten them a thing either and I think they have a right to express their frustration.
Too many people here (not just here, I guess; too many people in general) seem to base their political outlook on what gets on their nerves.
I hear this sentiment a lot and it sounds more and more like the Obama equivalent of a Friedman Unit. No matter how much of Obama’s term has elapsed, it’s never a long enough period of time that people should consider themselves free to voice criticism over the lack of progress to date. Presumably this will continue until the midterms, after which a) any Dem losses will be used to explain the lack of progress and b) it’s time to talk about 2012. We need to keep our powder dry until the second term.
I guess I don’t see the point in patting the president on the head for even the most meager of accomplishments. Make him work for our vote. And you are of course free to disagree with that and with everything else I’ve said.
Ruemara
@Michael D.: The senate not dealing with DOMA or DADT is a dig at gays? Really? You’re a lot more sensitive than I am if you’re reading that into what JC said.
Michael D.
@Sleeper: I’ve decided that AngusTheGodOfMeat is a troll.
And not even that good.
Michael D.
@Ruemara: Asked and answered. Read through the thread.
Corner Stone
@Sleeper:
Actually, any D losses in 2010 will very quickly be pinned right the fuck onto people who didn’t clap loud enough.
It sure as hell will not in any way be leadership’s fault.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@Michael D.:
You do know who AngusTheDogOfMeat is don’t you?
Just Some Fuckhead
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal): heh. Isn’t he just some remarkable newcomer like every time?
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@Just Some Fuckhead:
It’s like a virtual reincarnation each time. ;)
Can anyone make any sense of this statement Al Giordano posted in a diary asking for donations to get an “accountability ad” against Obama on TV?
The diary was written by “AdamGreen”. Al sure sounds pissed at this “Adam Green” and it is clear that he has ammo and is loaded for bear. I like Al and if he says he has something I am pretty sure he has it.
Just Some Fuckhead
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal): Blogs are like yer soaps, aren’t they?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Sleeper:
Conversation? This isn’t a conversation, son. It’s me using your posts as little springboards for my witty firebombing of your stupid assertions.
If you want to have a conversation with me, you have to start with something better than a subthread that begins “WAAH John Cole said something mean about gays like he always does.” Because that’s what this was about. Remember?
Yes, that. That stupid asinine whiny ass titty baby shriek of a nonsensical complaint from a guy who specializes in self-pitying shrieks of nonsensical complaint.
You stuck your hand into a plugged up terlet, amigo. Don’t blame me for the smell.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):
I’m a fucking cow.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):
Ah. That makes sense.
Sleeper
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
You know what? You’re right. We obviously don’t have anything to say to one another, so, take care.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Now are you a cow that is fucking or just a fucking cow? ;)
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
I thought so too. :)
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Someone has to do it. ;)
dumb monkey
Hello? “Is this thing on?”