I have a football rules question for you. Suppose that a receiver is hit before the ball arrives (I realize this is interference, bear with me) so that he’s falling as he catches the ball, and he ends up on the ground after catching the ball as a result of the premature hit. Does that count as down-by-contact? Or can the receiver get up and run?
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MikeJ
Jim Jarmusch says he’d be Down By Law.
Singularity
He can get up and run. Down by contact only counts after possession.
Omnes Omnibus
@Singularity: Makes sense to me. But if the opposing player is still touching him while he is on the ground, I think he would then be down down by contact.
cathyx
It depends on how early the hit was. If he catches the ball after contact is made, but while not having contact, and no further contact is made, he can get up and run with the ball. If contact continues, then a penalty is called and his team can decide to accept the penalty or not.
LaurenceB
In real football (everything but the NFL) he’s down. This is the way God intended it. Who cares how he got down. He’s down.
In a sane world, discussions like this one would shame the NFL into changing their idiotic rule.
asiangrrlMN
It’s interference. It’s a penalty. Play is null and void. But, he would not be down by contact in your fantasy world.
P.S. Go, SF.
amorphous
@asiangrrlMN: Play is not null and void, penalty is on the defense, so if he is not ruled down by contact he can get up and run (in the NFL) and the penalty can simply be declined.
General Stuck
Depends, if it’s the Browns. Then he is down,, down down. to a burning ring of fire.
ChrisB
@Omnes Omnibus: You’re both correct. Down by contact only counts after possession as Singularity says. But if the receiver has possession and is on the ground and you touch him, he is down and the play is over.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: Iggles and the Niners? Sounds like a snooze fest to me.
KRK
@MikeJ:
I love that flick.
asiangrrlMN
@amorphous: Depends if whistle is blown and how soon the penalty occurs, I thought. If the whistle is blown before the receiver catches it, isn’t the play pretty much over?
@General Stuck: I love the Man in Black.
@Yutsano: I know. I’m not sure I’m actually going to watch it. How you be?
Ross Hershberger
Meta here: it’s always struck me as a weakness of football that so many decisions about play are based on hair splitting. In other sports this is kept to a minimum, eliminating misinterpretation and judgement. If it requires a thick rule book, slow mo video and lots of head scratching to determine if a play is legal, maybe the rules aren’t very good.
LarsThorwald
He is not down by contact. If after being down he gains possession of the ball, the play is live until he is down by contact.
A good example is illegal contact that results in the receiver falling to the ground. If he had possession, he would be down by contact. Because he does not have possession he cannot be down. If after falling he recovers, snatches the ball out of the air, and then is tackled as he runs, then he will be down by contact.
Go ‘Skins.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I might just because I really don’t have much else to do right now. It’s raining so I don’t really want to leave the house.
freelancer (itouch)
Also, in NCAA, if you’re down, play’s over. This is an NFL rules question, if I’m not mistaken.
Also, I think Burger king’s new menu rollout convinces me that they are spoofing. Could you think of a more disgusting food item than a steakburger injected with cheese and jalapenos, as made with shit quality ingredients and inexplicably soggy because you’re ordering them from a fucking Burger King?
dand
If no contact after possession then he is not down as I understand it. But if contact as he makes possession then he is down.
Roger Moore
@asiangrrlMN:
Not at all. The ref will throw a flag, but play continues and everything gets sorted out after the play. The offense is always free to take the outcome of the play if it’s more favorable than the penalty. So if the receiver bounces up and runs in for a touchdown- maybe because the defender mistakenly believes that he’d be down by contact and doesn’t follow up on the play- the score counts.
Steve
Hard for anyone to say they have the definitive answer to this question when the NFL officials’ manual is a secret document.
Ross Hershberger
Bk’s taking their cue from The Onion.
LaurenceB
@Ross: The rule book would be a lot simpler and this kind of discussion would be completely unnecessary if the NFL simply went with the college football rules – basically, “when you’re down, you’re down, regardless of the reason”.
Another rule that’s completely unnecessary: “Backcourt” in Basketball. Don’t get me started on that one.
Also, “offsides” in soccer.
Jamey
Receiver gets to take first base.
Ross Hershberger
The fact that there can even be discussion and disagreement on a point of rule indicates that the rules are out of whack. Sports should be about play, not adjudication. It should be clear and unambiguous to everyone what’s going on.
RareSanity
He is not down by contact.
The “contact” in the “down by contact” must happen after possession of the ball is established.
An almost perfect example of this happened today in the Dallas/Tennessee game. Receiver lays out to catch a deep pass, defensive back has his hand on the receiver as the receiver goes down to the ground, but, he removes it right as the receiver hits the ground. However, receiver has not established possession of the ball until he hits the ground and maintains control of the ball.
The receiver gets up and runs for a touchdown. Dallas challenges call claiming down by contact, call is upheld. The defensive back needed to touch the receiver AFTER he hit the ground because that was when he established possession.
freelancer (itouch)
Motherfucker. I just benched Crabtree this week cause he’s been having kind of a shit season.
asiangrrlMN
@Roger Moore: Ah, damn. Of course. Only if there’s an inadvertent whistle does the play stop. Duh.
Stupid football rule: Completing a football play process. Poor Lions.
Yutsano
@freelancer (itouch): You do realize that if you hadn’t benched him he’d be playing like shit, amirite? The FSM likes to toy with us like that.
Kathy
@asiangrrlMN:
Are the Iggles playing tonight? Go Phillies!
Rommie
Yeah, the receiver can get up and run. He should regardless, because you don’t want to sit there and get tapped when the ref doesn’t blow his whistle. Get up and run, the refs will blow the play dead if they think you were down.
LaurenceB, how can you remove the offsides rule from soccer (and hockey, for that matter) without the game becoming a farce? Is there a reasonable alternative?
Ross Hershberger
OT question: Why are there no trolls here? Tomasky’s got a regular squad who report daily on schedule. Krugman maintains a rotating staff of abuse-hurlers. It’s nice that here I don’t get verbally slapped around unless I really have it coming. What’s the secret? Aggressive IP banning? Under the radar?
Omnes Omnibus
@Ross Hershberger: We get trolls. They seem to come in waves or turn up for specific subjects. They are idiosyncratic.
asiangrrlMN
@Kathy: Oh, the fickle heart is so very fickle! Go anyone but the Yankees!
@Ross Hershberger: We have ’em. They are just very very weaksauce and easily intimidated for the most part.
RareSanity
@General Stuck:
I going to giggle at this one. Because, after having to eat crow when the Cole’s Stillers put their foot in the ass of my Falcons, I wanted to go and hide.
I do feel your pain though General. Let us not forget, that it was not until last year, that my Falcons had back-to-back winning seasons, in their entire history!
Good grief the Falcons sucked for a long time…
JWL
“He can get up and run. Down by contact only counts after possession”.
That sounds right to me, too.
Here’s another question: Can a defensive player reach up and grab a receiver or running back by the hair hanging out their helmet?
It wouldn’t be a horse-caller, or a face mask.
(And visa versa in the case of an interception).
Go (SF) Giants!
asiangrrlMN
@JWL: This one, I know! Yes. It’s part of the uniform.
RareSanity
@Ross Hershberger:
They’re around…they don’t show up until certain key words, or phrases are mentioned.
Then they send a “go team”.
Trolls always travel in packs, much like Wolves. But not as cool…
Yutsano
@RareSanity:
Fixteth for accuracy and wingnut fee fees.
RareSanity
@JWL:
While the ethics of such a maneuver will be questioned, usually with fisticuffs, it is perfectly legal.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Damn it. You beat me to the punch.
Our trolls: Paul L., Makewi, Bender, Sanka, Americaneocon, to name a few. The quality of trollery is just not the same since Brick Oven Bill was permanently banned.
@RareSanity: Well, if they wear it like my Troy Polamalu, they kinda have to expect a hands-on experience.
RareSanity
@Yutsano:
Genius. Pure genius.
The Dangerman
It all depends on when contact was made; if it’s before possession, play is alive. I agree with all those folks sayin the same thing in the thread.
My contribution to the thread is the “tackle” that occurred towards the end of the Redskins game; the defense intercepted the ball and, in rolling over, kicked the offensive guy right in the ass. Play is dead at that point.
First ass tackle I can recall in football.
RareSanity
@asiangrrlMN:
On top of being a hell of a player, he is dreamy, isn’t he? lol
Roger Moore
@Yutsano:
I think you mean “just like Woverines!1!1!”.
gbear
Any sport where it takes more than two minutes to play the last two minutes should be mocked.
asiangrrlMN
@RareSanity: Oh, hell, yes. Mmmmmm…..love his hair….
@gbear: Well, considering it takes an hour to play the last twenty seconds of basketball….
Kirk Spencer
@Ross Hershberger:
snerk.
The Tackled Ball Law of Rugby. Which is only a part of the 150 page international rule book, a book with which most nations disagree in some part (and with each other as to the variations, of course.)
freelancer (itouch)
@Yutsano:
I believe that concept is known as Schroedinger’s Wide Receiver.
B-town
This reminds me of a play I saw maybe 6 years ago (?) I think it was the Vikings versus someone (The Titans? for the sake of argument lets call them the Titans).
Anyway, the Vikings were on defense and the Titans were inside the Vikings 30 (or so). Anyway, the Titans run a pass play but the intended receiver falls down (or was pushed?) meanwhile one the Vikings tips the ball and so thinks he’s broken up so starts celebrating. Meanwhile the tipped ball lands directly on top of the guy who has fallen down who somehow manages to keep it from hitting the ground while gaining possession. He then proceeds to run into the end zone for the (game winning?) score.
Does anyone else remember this occurring? I tried google but I can’t remember enough details to narrow it down.
amorphous
@Steve: This is only because it is always printed entirely on copies of Barack Obama’s long-form birth certificates. (i.e. it does not exist!)
The Dangerman
He then proceeds to run into the end zone for the (game winning?) score.
There was a similar play (if not THE play) in a Vikings Packers game. I’m fairly sure the receiver was Driver in that one.
RareSanity
@gbear:
You mock the game of American football?
I demand satisfaction, Suur…
(slaps with dueling glove)
asiangrrlMN
@B-town: It had to be the Vikings on the bad end of the deal, didn’t it? Yes,of course, it did.
@gbear: I will agree. I hate the ends of games for this very reason. They draaaaaaaag out way beyond reasonable limits.
Roger Moore
@gbear:
The really mockable point is that the 2 minute warning in football exists so the referees can warn the teams that the rules have just changed in small but important ways. Any sport that has rules that officially vary depending on how much time is left on the clock deserves to be ridiculed.
gbear
@asiangrrlMN: and thus it should be mocked, along with any sport where you can burn dinner to a cinder while waiting for the last two minutes to be over.
The Dangerman
I had the game right; receiver wrong. Antonio Freeman.
http://videosift.com/video/Improbable-catch-by-Packer-Antonio-Freeman
Yutsano
@Roger Moore: I reserve my emphaticals for appropriate moments. In other words, don’t overexclamate.
And it just occurred to me I have no idea who the QB for the Iggles is. I mean other than Vick.
asiangrrlMN
@gbear: Hey, have you heard about the anti-LGBT bullying candlenight vigil in Loring Park Thursday night? It’s at seven.
@The Dangerman: I hate you. Not only did you post the video, it has Favre talking in it.
@Yutsano: For some reason, I want to say Lou Dobbs *as QB), but I know that’s not right.
gbear
@asiangrrlMN: No I hadn’t. I bet a lot of people will show up for that given how hot the topic has been around here lately. I’ll mark it on my calendar and try to make it.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: And right now I’m being too lazy to do teh Google. But BJ is usually good at providing in a situation like this.
The Dangerman
I hate you.
You have to take a number and stand in line; I’ve lost count of the number of shit lists I’m on, so any BJ hate ranks only a mild “ehhhhhhhh”.
I thought Farve is a good guy now that he’s a viking?
Loon Juice
Ok, change of sports questions. I was at a Washington Wildithings baseball game last year and the play went like this:
Runner on first, batter hits a low line drive. Umpire, standing between first and second, dives out of the way but the ball skips off the bottom of his shoe. The ball never touched the ground and the second baseman caught the ball in the air and threw it to the shortstop at second base. The shortstop then threw the ball to the first baseman and there was a double play.
My question is, how do you score the double play? Is this a line-out to the second baseman and then the runner going to second is out because of the throw to first or is this a second to short to first double play?
I’m thinking that it’s a line-out because the ump is part of the field but not the ground.
Any thoughts?
Tom
Roger Moore
@Yutsano:
But the emphaticals are part of the spelling. Wolverines are animals. Wolverines! is a wingnut meme.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kirk Spencer: The upside of the rugby rules is that there usually is some violation of the rules going on at any given time so that if the referee blows his whistle, you can be pretty sure that someone, probably a prop or 8-man was doing something. The wing over there was completely innocent of any wrongdoing; it is slanderous to even suggest otherwise. He had to tackle the opposing player by the collar or else he wouldn’t have done it.
RareSanity
@Roger Moore:
@gbear:
In all seriousness, it is my belief that the reason that the NFL and college football are so popular because they are the only, of the major sports, that adapt the game so readily.
The NFL will change rules from season to season to make the product better. Kickoffs started to result in an inordinate amount of touchbacks, boring…they moved the kickers back, and now kickoffs are exciting again. Fans like offense, so they changed the rules of contact for defensive backs. Quarterbacks are the bell cows of the league, so they changed rules to protect their safety.
The whole, “rules changing after the 2 minute warning”, are there because the NFL does not want earlier games overlapping the game following them.
That willingness to adapt is why football is the most popular of all the major sports. There really isn’t even a close second.
Omnes Omnibus
@B-town: Green Bay. It was Antonio Freeman.
ETA: I was late to this one and without video.
The Dangerman
I’m thinking that it’s a line-out because the ump is part of the field but not the ground.
I say that is correct. Ball never touched the ground.
Something similar happens in Golf; if a player hits a ball and then hits another players ball, the first players ball is replaced at it’s original position, but the player whose ball hit the first ball is not moved from where it ends up. From the rules of golf, that first ball is just part of the field.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: I Googled. It’s Kevin Kolb. Sounds like Lou Dobbs to me!
@The Dangerman: Yes, but do any of them have a rusty pitchfork? Favre sucks, period. I root for the Vikes and root against Favre. And now that we re-acquired Randy Moss, I am Not Talking to the Vikes. Our relationship is complicated.
@Loon Juice: I would say line-out, but that’s totally a guess.
RareSanity
@Loon Juice:
Line out, the double play was the out at first. The throw to second was unnecessary, although it doesn’t hurt to be sure.
You’re right, the umpire is part of the field.
asiangrrlMN
@gbear: I got a FaceBook invite. It’s from 7 – 9 p.m. Approximately 375 people say they are going to attend. I will try, but I have to shuffle my schedule. If I do go, I’m the fat Asian chick with tats that all have fire, glasses, hair down to my ass, and I’ll try to wear a BJ (Tunchie) shirt.
The Dangerman
I root for the Vikes and root against Favre. And now that we re-acquired Randy Moss, I am Not Talking to the Vikes. Our relationship is complicated.
So, you’re saying you want the Vikings to win the Super Bowl on a last second pass from Favre to Moss and have them both blow out their knees jumping in celebration? Interesting.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN:
Ahem.
YOU.
ARE.
NOT.
FAT.
And no I’m not saying that just because I’m your fake hubby.
RareSanity
Follow up on the baseball thing. As far as scoring it, even though there was not “technically” a force out at second, I think score book would still show it as a 4-5-3 double play. Because the shortstop actually made the throw for the “official” out.
jake the snake
@LaurenceB: @Ross:
Dumbest rule in all sports, the “balk” in baseball.
Second, “face guarding” interference rule in football.
asiangrrlMN
@The Dangerman: Heh. No. I want AP to win on an eighty-yard run, Favre to get sacked and concussed, and Moss to get his fee-fees hurt and half-ass his way out of the game.
@Yutsano: I’m not using it as a pejorative–just descriptive. I am objectively fat. Especially for an Asian chick.
The Dangerman
4-5-3 double play
Agreed.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: Okay…I’ll pull back on that point for now. But I got my eye on you young lady.
(There’s an underlying joke there, I want to see if anyone else on here gets it.)
Roger Moore
@Loon Juice:
The appropriate rule is rule 5.09:
So the ball should be dead if the first thing it touches is an umpire, unless it has already passed an infielder other than the pitcher. If it has already passed an infielder other than the pitcher, it’s live but can’t be caught on the fly for an out. The play should only have been called the way you describe if the umpire was playing behind the infielders and deflected the ball back into the infield. Otherwise, it should be a dead ball.
gbear
@asiangrrlMN: I’ll be the old, pudgy, bald, bearded guy who looks like half of the male boomers in MN.
I’ll look for you.
James E. Powell
@General Stuck:
If it were the Browns, he would not have caught the ball, the ref would not call interference, the ball would be deflected up and intercepted.
gbear
@asiangrrlMN: That’s the game I want to see too. I can’t believe everyone is so happy about having Moss back. I hope he can avoid trying to run down a traffic cop this time.
RareSanity
@Roger Moore:
I stand corrected.
Teh Google is a helluva thing, eh?
B-town
@The Dangerman:
Thanks man! Of course it would have been the Packers.
asiangrrlMN
@gbear: I know. I can’t stand him. On the plus side, two divas (Favre and Moss) trying to coexist may mean they knock each other out of the game.
OK. I am probably more noticeable than you are. If you see me, say hey.
@Yutsano: I did not get the joke. Hopefully, someone will explain it to me.
Roger Moore
@RareSanity:
Who needs Teh Google? Unlike football, MLB has its official rules on its web site, and I keep a copy on my computer so I can consult it in cases like this.
Please note, though, that these are the rules for Organized Baseball. I think that independent leagues typically follow the same rules, but I’m not 100% sure. Amateur baseball definitely does not follow these exact rules, and at some levels some of the rules are very different. I don’t know the rules for lower levels of baseball, so it’s possible that the bit about the umpire being part of the field is correct in those games.
OTOH, the bit about the ball still being on the fly is definitely wrong. Think about it. If the ball touches a wall, screen, base, pitching rubber, etc. the result is the same as if it had touched the ground; it can’t be caught on the fly for an out. So even if the umpire is considered to be part of the field, touching the field means the fielder needs to go for the force double play at second, not the fly out/appeal out at first. The only thing the ball can touch and be considered to still be “on the fly” is a fielder (including any part of his uniform or equipment).
And BTW, a double play second to short to first would be 4-6-3, not 4-5-3. Position 5 is the third baseman, not the shortstop.
different church-lady
But enough about you, let’s talk about me: many years ago I’m umping a little league game. The throw comes into the plate. The runner barrels into the catcher. The catcher drops the ball, the runner misses the plate, and both kids are out cold. We’re all so concerned about the poor kids that play simply stops.
I still can’t remember what we actually decided about how to rule the play, and later on I grew very curious about what the right decision should have been — does the run score or not?
MattR
@different church-lady: It has been quite a while since my little league days, but I thought the runner would have been out for failing to slide at home.
If this were major league rules, I believe the run would count once the next pitch was thrown.
RareSanity
@Roger Moore:
Ahem
You were saying?
MattR
@RareSanity: And the second sentence on that page is …
RareSanity
@MattR:
Point taken.
However, this is the NFL.
Why give away for free, that which can be sold? My point was that the rules of the NFL are not some secret, sacred scroll guarded by Freemasons.
MattR
@RareSanity:
Has the NFL officially adopted this as their motto yet?
Yeah, but that digest can also be deceiving. I took a quick glance and did not see any mention of the “going to the ground” exception when making a catch (which is understandable since they can’t cover every possible scenario), which leads the reader to assume that there is nothing different about catching a ball while falling. (EDIT: Point being that it is not somewhere you can go to settle a bet with friends)
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: Hehehe. The joke of course being I’m a year younger than you but I’m calling you young lady as if it were the opposite. Okay so maybe it’s only funny to me.
ploeg
@LaurenceB:
“Offsides” in soccer is designed to take away most of the possibilities for scoring. If you didn’t have “offsides” in soccer, it wouldn’t be soccer. It would be basketball.
Restrung
Shit, Doug. Have you ever met Randy Moss?
Andy K
@RareSanity:
Yeah, but that’s not a full examination of the rules.
There was a Sunday night game a few years ago, Packers vs. Lions….Packers were on their own 1/2-yard line…Handoff to Samkon Gado, who, to avoid a safety in a very tight game, throws the ball forward as he’s diving forward, but before he reaches the line of scrimmage, towards an eligible receiver…incomplete pass…but there’s a flag.
But- to the consternation of the Lions’ fans watching the game with me- the Gado play isn’t what drew the flag. Packers’ right tackle Mark Tauscher was holding in the end zone. It’s clear in the replay that, while back-pedaling, Tauscher held the Lions’ defensive player in the end zone. Safety, right?
Wrong. Because Tauscher’s initial contact with the Lions’ player- not the hold itself- was outside of the end zone, the penalty was half the distance to the goal line. ESPN’s crew had no idea why it wasn’t a safety…But a retired NFL official who lives in Muskegon and has drinks with my dad from time-to-time explained it to my dad a few days later. But you won’t find the explanation in your rule book at nfl.com.
RareSanity
@MattR:
So saith Saint Pete Rozelle in the times know as “the 80s”, so it has been.
Football fans, in general, do not have the same priorities with their (our) sport as baseball, soccer or even hockey fans.
Football is not about the tradition or purity, it’s about the show. It’s the modern day equivalent of the Roman gladiators.
RareSanity
@Andy K:
That is, without question, true.
Like I said in a previous post, the NFL changes rules from season to season. Hell, guidelines given to officials, can differ from week to week. There will never be a rule book, like baseball, that changes about as much as the Constitution.
The NFL is about the product as a whole, the “rules” are subject to change based on feedback from players, coaches, owners, networks even fans.
Football is just different in the world of sports, that is why it is so popular. It is willing to change and adapt in which ever way makes the product more successful.
Loon Juice
@Roger Moore: Thank you Mister Moore, I can see why you’re in Her Majesty’s Service.
Ron
@asiangrrlMN: Err, if he’s not down, he can run, and the team can refuse to accept the penalty. A pass interference flag doesn’t stop play.
noncarborundum
@different church-lady:
I found this at LittleLeague.org. I don’t know if “being carried off on a stretcher” is equivalent to “having entered the dugout”, but it might be.
MattR
BTW, if somehow the 49ers come back to win this game, Alex Smith should just drop his pants and moon the entire crowd. And the NFL should let him get away with it without a fine.
Roger Moore
@RareSanity:
That is, in the NFL’s words, “not meant to be a substitute for the official rule book. In any case of conflict between these explanations and the official rules, the rules always have precedence.” The rule book that’s on the MLB web site is the Official Rules of Baseball.
Andy K
@RareSanity:
As if the NFL is unique in this manner?
Where is baseball’s strike zone? How were the balls cores wrapped this year? How high is the mound? And, uh, designated hitters…What’s the deal with that?
And why do soccer leagues change the balls they use every season? What’s considered a dangerous play in the EPL this year? Exactly how much contact is allowed in the penalty area?
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Yes, I think it is only funny to you.
@Ron: Yep. Got schooled on it earlier. I consider it my ‘doh’ moment.
@MattR: Is there even a chance? I might have to flip the TV back on.
MattR
@asiangrrlMN: Philly up 27-24 at the 2 minute warning and just got the ball back after a SF TD. SF has three timeouts.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: @MattR: The Iggles could totally melt down here or they could manage the clock right, get a couple first downs, and end it just like that. And the announcers need to DIAF.
MattR
@Yutsano: No argument about the announcers or the Iggles. I am pretty sure LeSean McCoy just got confused about where he was on the field. It looked like he thought the 25 was the 30 and he just turtled up to prevent a fumble because he thought he had the first down already.
RareSanity
@Andy K:
Pitcher’s mound lowered 10 inches: 1969
Designated hitter introduced: 1973
Strike zone and baseball cores: Really?
You’re right, baseball is on the cutting edge…
Not to mention the DH is only used by “half” of baseball. In my opinion, if the pitcher ain’t hittin’, it ain’t baseball.
I can’t speak to this, I don’t follow soccer.
Yutsano
@MattR: And Smith makes a bad throw and it’s over. SF is still winless correct?
MattR
@Yutsano: SF is 0-5 (along with Carolina and Buffalo). Kinda tough to blame Smith for that throw as he got pretty good as he was releasing it.
RareSanity
@Yutsano:
@MattR:
I really hope SF gets their shit together. I don’t want to see Mike Singletary lose his job because his quarterbacks, simultaneously, suck and blow (h/t Bart Simpson)
Singletary is good for football, period.
Yutsano
@MattR: It really just takes one bad throw to mess things up though. I wonder if it’s too tacky to start the clock on Singletary’s head coaching career.
Andy K
@RareSanity:
Okay, I’ll make the concession on the balls, but the tiny fucking strike zone makes it one helluva hitters’ game, one where there’s much more scoring.
And while the NFL has changed some of its rules over the last 40 years in order to facilitate the offense, most of the yearly changes have little to do with scoring and more to do with safety. Unless you think that leading with the helmet, horse-collar tackles and face-mask rules changes have led to higher scoring. And I don’t know about you, but I remember those goal posts at or just behind the goal line, and there’s no way you’re going to convince me that that change hasn’t negatively effected scoring.
MattR
What a brutal week in the survivor pool I’m in. I lost one of my two entries which was par for the course as nearly half the remaining entries were eliminated this week (at least 1460 of the 3004 left)
JWL
Take my word for it: I’m a long-toothed Niner fan. I’m a native San Franciscan. There is much to admire about Mike Singletary, and Smith just might prosper elsewhere.
But they’re both gone. More to the point, both should be.
RareSanity
@Andy K:
In my opinion, there have been a couple changes in the rules to improve scoring.
Moving the kickoff from 35 to the 30 yard line.
The 5 yard contact rule for wide receivers.
However, most of the rule changes I think about, don’t apply strictly to scoring. They improve game play and overall value as a spectator.
Instant replay (why does Selig fight this so much?)
Reducing the play clock from 45 seconds to 35
In helmet radio communications
Just to name a few…
RareSanity
@JWL:
Sadly, I can’t argue a single point you’ve made.
Roger Moore
@RareSanity:
The same thing is true of other sports. For example, baseball recently reduced the allowable diameter of a bat from 2.75″ to 2.61″, which may help to explain why pitchers had a better time of it this year. IIRC, baseball is also starting to require teams to store their baseballs under controlled conditions (ala the Rockies’ humidor), which could potentially be tweaked to adjust the overall scoring level. There are also regularly small changes in how the umpires call the rules, like how much they call high strikes or balks, that can change the overall shape of the game.
The big difference between football and other sports is the goal of the tweaking. Most sports take a conservative line. They have in mind an ideal playing style, and most of the rule changes are designed to encourage that idealized playing style. They may also have an ideal pace or score level, but that usually has a fairly wide range of acceptable variation, and rules are only changed to tweak the scoring level if it moves out of that broad band. The result is that the game seems to stay more or less constant across eras even as players and technology
The NFL, OTOH, is run by a bunch of control freaks who also happen to be lawyers. They apparently have a very specific idea about what attracts fans, which apparently have more to do with scoring level than with the game today looking very similar to the game 5 or 10 years ago. As a result, they’re constantly making deep and fundamental changes to the rules, and those changes are often so detailed that they confuse even broadcasters and coaches. And FWIW, I strongly suspect that the NFL’s great popularity has more to do with Americans’ love of violence than the brilliance of the NFL rules committee.
RareSanity
@Roger Moore:
I’m going to disagree with you, only slightly. The NFL makes changes to fit the medium in which it interacts with the most people, TV. Like I said, fans of the NFL, do not place history in as high esteem as baseball fans. Not that there is a right or wrong, it’s just different. To the NFL, and it’s fans, NOTHING is more important than the current season, unless your team stinks, then it’s about next season. Today’s game is not judged based on comparison to past years.
It’s more about story lines then “the game”.
Never said they were brilliant, I would classify them more as shrewd, calculating and cynical.
While I won’t dispute the violence angle, I think its popularity has a lot to do with the time requirements.
Football only asks for one day, 16 times a year for the regular season. Then another 6 weeks for playoffs and championship. People are busy nowadays, football doesn’t ask for much more of a time commitment than the season of a TV show. In my opinion, that is why it is so popular, along with the violence thing.
Hell, even strippers are off on Sunday! lol
Roger Moore
@RareSanity:
I think there’s a mix of conservatism, unwillingness to have another showdown with the umpires, and concern about game pace. The question of game pace isn’t just about the time it takes to play the game or boring fans. There’s also a serious worry about gamesmanship, with managers using review as a stall tactic to give a reliever more time to warm up or hoping that an unexpected break in the action might throw the opposing pitcher off his rhythm. I’m sure there will be some expansion of instant replay within a few years, but the MLB conservative streak means they care more about getting it right (or as close to right as possible) the first time rather than getting it out quickly and tweaking it into shape.
Keith G
If the receiver is a Democratic member of Congress, he remains on the ground in a fetal position.
Andy K
@RareSanity:
I missed where you wrote it earlier, but THIS.
Even if baseball fans aren’t familiar with the King Kellys and Rabbit Moranvilles, they do know Ty Cobb, Christy Matthewson, Ruth, Wagner, etc.. Football fans don’t, for the most part, know the Ernie Nevers, Cal Hubbards, Don Hutsons and Deacon Dan Towlers who toiled away on Sundays before the game got huge.
Trivia question (you’re on your honor to not look this up on the intertrons) : Who’s the first player in the NFL to rush for over 1,000 yards in each of his first three seasons in the league? This is the kind of question that a large segment of baseball’s fan base could answer if it was about that sport.
Batocchio
@The Dangerman:
Amazing play and awareness by Freeman. (I won my football pool that week thanks to it, too.)
Juana Dunnell
The Eagles won someway, but Kevin Kolb sure did get sacked a lot.
fucen tarmal
@Andy K:
of course, one can also say that baseball history is a moribund influence on the game. other than packer, giant, and bears fans, most football fans will freely acknowledge that the game has changed and evolved over the years. has become more complicated, but also more competitive.
baseball wants to pretend that it was an equal achievement to have done something 80 years ago as it was last year. i give baseball players at least enough credit to say, they are playing the game better overall now than they did 20-50-80 years ago. but to diehard baseball fans it is anathema to admit that pitchers throwing fewer innings are making better pitches throughout their outings, short though they may be. or that fielding is better, simply because the fields are maintained better. athletes are for the most part bigger, stronger and faster, and regardless of how one suspects they got that way(not all of the “growth” is fake, society reflects bigger, stronger, better trained, more nutrition consciousness…why wouldn’t baseball? and why wouldn’t it affect the games?
football fans, for their part, don’t ignore the history of the game, they just find it less comparable to today’s product…
example; the giants won the nfl championship in 1930, a league without a draft, playoff, etc, in order to establish the credibility of the nfl in the mind of the public, the owners of the giants scheduled a post season exhibition game against a group of notre dame alumni, alumni mind you, living in the area.
the evolution of the passing game just in the last 20-30 years has made a huge difference, griese rarely threw more than 20 times a game, the “air coryell” chargers where known in their era as one of the most pass heavy offenses ever, by today’s standards their run/pass ratio is ordinary.
completion percentages are way up, place kicking has evolved to the point where kickers are cut for making the same amount of kicks, from longer distances, than league leaders did 30 years ago….all of the top receivers by yardage, receptions, are recent players. people used to marvel at the career of charlie joiner who played 18 years and was the all time leader in most categories, there are 25 or so recievers in the game with higher numbers, not all of them are even considered “good”
meanwhile baseball rings its hands at how many home runs palmiero, sosa, mcguire, a-rod, etc have hit,and how it compares to guys who played 80 years ago(never mind pitchers use the same stuff, and those guys didn’t take many abs against tired armed work horses who were nearly exclusively white, and american) seems to me, baseball was on life support before they let guys start hitting home runs.
Tax Analyst
Well, I’m probably way too late for this thread, but those who say the receiver is only down if he is down from contact made after he gains actual possession of the pass are correct. So if a potential receiver is knocked down prior to the catch he can proceed to gain more yardage until he is brought down by contact again. In the situation DougJ described there should be a penalty for interference on the defensive player and the receiver would be down on contact because the defender was on him after the catch was completed. Not totally fair, but that’s how it would be called. The only advantage to the offense here would be if the receiver fumbled or lost possession of the pass they could accept the interference penalty instead.