If we’re going to have an Ayn Rand book club, let’s just do the sex scenes. It’s been a hell of a long time since I read those doorstops, but I remember thinking they were some of the strangest, most anerotic descriptions of human coupling ever committed to paper.
Update: Here’s a taste of Galtian Hero Hank Reardon’s morning after pillow talk with Dagny Taggart:
“I want you to know this.”
He stood by the bed, dressed, looking down at her. His voice had pronounced it evenly, with great clarity and no inflection. She looked up at him obediently. He said: “What I feel for you is contempt. But it’s nothing compared to the contempt I feel for myself. I don’t love you. I’ve never loved anyone. I wanted you from the first moment I saw you. I wanted you as one wants a whore – for the same reason and purpose.”
That kind of sweet talk keeps her coming back for more, in Ayn Rand’s world.
AhabTRuler
Oh, I see, part of the site rebuild is a switch to “All Libertarian, All the Time.”
Please, god, shoot me!
phantomist
As he gently pounded the libertarian theme…
Ija
Then you’d have every other comment going into moderation.
Maybe that’s the reason so many teenage boys love Rand. It’s the sex.
QDC
Seemed like a good time to link this:
mcsweeneys.net/2008/11/20tucker.html
tom p
I’ll pass on the book club. I don’t hate myself that much.
gene108
I’ve never read Ayn Rand…for that I am grateful…
de stijl
Come for the rape, stay for the adolescent political philosophy!
guster
“I wanted you as one wants a whore – for the same reason and purpose.”
I’m gonna try this on my wife. I will report back, if I survive.
Omnes Omnibus
Are you guys interested in driving traffic away from the site?
Sko Hayes
I simply cannot read any of those books again. I read Atlas Shrugged in the summer between 8th and 9th grade, and was so proud of myself for actually reading the whole thing, I don’t think I absorbed anything other than by the end of the book, I was completely skipping over the 10 page long speechifying by Galt, et al.
Why don’t we review one of the Harry Potter books instead, if we’re going for teen reading?
Morbo
Even the libertarians Trey Parker and Matt Stone…
mistermix
@guster: Who needs dinner and a movie?
RossInDetroit
@QDC:
That’s really good. I wasted time reading over 1000 pages of the original when it was all there in McSweeny’s.
SFAW
“What I feel for you is contempt. But it’s nothing compared to the contempt I feel for myself. I don’t love you. I’ve never loved anyone. I wanted you from the first moment I saw you. I wanted you as one wants a whore – for the same reason and purpose.
Well, that, plus you had a falafel [sic].”
RossInDetroit
Let’s read The Pet Goat instead. I’d be interested in discussing what was on GWB’s mind instead of national security on the morning of 9/11.
SFAW
10 page? I call Cliff’s Notes!
“Read the whole thing”, my eye.
aimai
“…one wants a whore…”
Now that’s some great writing, right there. No one uses “one” anymore, in intimate settings. One wonders why?
aimai
R-Jud
I think I will stick with my own reading list, thanks. I’m just getting reacquainted with the Old Testament. Psycho, abusive-parent Yahweh is a lot more relatable than anything in the Randiverse.
Cat Lady
Can we not do this and say we didn’t? kthx.
dmsilev
@Sko Hayes:
You were reading the version with McMegan page numbering?
dms
The Republic of Stupidity
Geez…
That quote’s from Ayn Rand?
I thought it was from Bill O’Reilly’s book…
Or mebbe I was thinking of Scooter Libby’s magnum opus…
So many bad books… and so little time…
Alwhite
If you want libertarian SciFi porn I would recommend Heinlein’s “Time Enough For Love”. Its as long, much better written, the protagonist has consensual sex with his mother as opposed to rape, covers a 2000 year span of time and shows signs of humanity.
The Grand Panjandrum
I’ll read Jacqueline Susann first. An author who was rumored to have had an affair with Coco Chanel is far more interesting than one who may have had an attachment to Mr. Andrea Mitchell. (Not to mention has far better taste in partners.)
JGabriel
Off-topic, but too good not to share. Seems Dick Cheney weighed in on the Tucson shooting:
Because Dick Cheney knows how traumatic it is to shoot someone in the head.
.
RossInDetroit
@Alwhite:
IIRC, there’s some weirdness with his twin daughter clones in there as well. I mostly liked the book but the sex stuff skeeved me out.
Ija
@The Grand Panjandrum:
Was there really an affair with Greenspan? I thought Greenspan was just an acolyte? Or did she sleep with all her acolytes?
de stijl
@de stijl:
Re: Update – I warned you. No, I fucking told you.
Rand is adolescence writ large. Or rapey. Large and rapey. Ayn Rand’s world view is a brainy 12 YO’s conception of how the world should be.
“I am a sui generis genius. Look I used Latin, so it’s ipso facto. QED. For reasons outside of my control, the object of my desire spurns me, so I’m going to invent an alternate universe where this is not so.”
Odie Hugh Manatee
From a Wreck List diary at the GOS:
Nice company that John got paired up with, eh?
You bad boy John! ;)
Teri
@Alwhite: Always made me wonder about his childhood. His Citizen of the Galaxy was good, much better than Atlas .
machine
According to Jennifer Burns’ “Ayn Rand: Goddess of the Market”, Rand despised libertarians as “scum”.
It was a great first e-book on which to bust my Kindle cherry.
lacp
@JGabriel: Especially if they don’t apologize.
gbear
Just please, please, please don’t ever do what Crooks and Liars did yesterday and pose the question ‘What’s On Your Kindle?
JPL
What would Studs Terkel think about an Ayn Rand book club?
“Working” actually wrote about real Americans.
lacp
Why this dicking around with libertarianism? Go for the gusto – Norman Spinrad’s Iron Dream.
JGabriel
@Alwhite:
There’s a word for this: Squick.
.
morzer
Gastritis broke my page-turner. So sorry.
geg6
All you ever need to know about Ayn Rand and her “Supermen” is this:
alternet.org/books/145819/ayn_rand%2C_hugely_popular_author_and_inspiration_to_right-wing_leaders%2C…
John PM
I saw DougJ DougJson’s thread and checked the price of Atlas Shrugged for Nook Color. It is $18.99! If I can find a used copy or get it from my library, then I would be willing to take part in the book club.
Jules
The least we can do is have a “write a sex scene like Ayn Rand” contest….
dmsilev
OT: Surprising precisely nobody, Sarah Palin thinks that her use of “blood libel” was perfectly fine:
There’s that ‘obviously’. “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means”.
dms
Ija
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
John should sue for defamation. My favorite part of the diary:
Fearless leader? Hmm, I wonder what the leftier-than-thou crowd would call anyone who calls Obama a “fearless leader”. There’s a word for it ….. I’m just not remembering it. It’s either Obot or Leni Riefenstahl.
The Moar You Know
This may be the most terrifying first sentence I’ve ever read in my life.
4tehlulz
Any book that does not acknowledge the blood libeling of Sarah Palin is packed with lies.
JGabriel
@Jules:
As he raped her, she knew just how the poor felt, wanting to be possessed by the ubermensch.
.
Chyron HR
@Alwhite:
Well, he was bilaterally symmetrical. I guess that counts.
Omnes Omnibus
@dmsilev: When completely removed from any cultural context and viewed from an entirely ahistorical perspective, Palin’s statement is not completely incorrect.
Ash Can
@machine: Is there anyone she didn’t despise, other than that serial killer?
Jules
@JGabriel:
thank you
RSA
“I hate it when my equipment goes Galt.”
JGabriel
@Ash Can:
Apparently, Rand was a big fan of Farrah Fawcett Majors.
Which kind of confirms de stijl’s observation that Rand had the emotional maturity of an adolescent boy.
So, there’s that.
.
dmsilev
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, I’ll grant that the grammar was correct and that the sentence had a coherent structure. Baby steps.
dms
Carnacki
“What I feel for you is contempt. But it’s nothing compared to the contempt I feel for myself. I don’t love you. I’ve never loved anyone. I wanted you from the first moment I saw you. I wanted you as one wants a whore – for the same reason and purpose.”
Funny, those are the same words used by the Koch brothers when they hire people for their “think tanks” and for their magazines.
PurpleGirl
If that’s the way she thought and wrote about sex and love, it explains why a bunch of the libertarians I knew in college had such rotten sex/love relationships. They’d all read Rand as teenagers and thought she was fantastic. At least the Heinlein worshipers were a bit better as persons.
geg6
@Ash Can:
Alan Greenspan. From Wikipedia:
The Republic of Stupidity
@JGabriel:
@lacp:
Hey… Harry Whittington apologized for all the trouble he caused by getting his face in the way of Dick’s buckshot…
“Accidents do and will happen…”
Talk about a perfect gentleman…
mistermix
I found a copy of Atlas Shrugged and updated the quote. Even worse with a little context.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Ija:
One asshat in that diary is whining about being “branded a ‘firebagger'” over here…lol!
Butthurt babies.
Violet
@4tehlulz:
Speaking of Sarah Palin, maybe we should read one of “her” books instead. Do those have sex scenes?
Violet
I wonder if that’s how Alan Greenspan talks to Andrea Mitchell?
JGabriel
machine:
A little self-knowledge goes a long way.
Seriously, who did Rand think were her compatriots? If not libertarians, who were her political soulmates? Fascists?
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it were the latter, by the way.
.
Ija
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Someone does defend John though:
Apparently we all are sycophants. And John lost a good night sleep because he put this gentleman in moderation. Poor, poor John.
Omnes Omnibus
@Carnacki: Snap.
Ash Can
@mistermix: Yeesh. She really was incredibly fucked up, wasn’t she? I suppose we should be thankful that her weapon of choice was a typewriter instead of a high-powered rifle, despite the amount of dreck she churned out.
ET
OK after reading that blurb I don’t think I could read that doorstop. Just kill me now, it would be more kind.
kerFuFFler
@QDC:
Thank you for that link!!!!
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Ija:
Yeah, I saw that one too. Good on his part for doing so though the thought of John losing a nights sleep over some unknown person on the internet sounds a bit strange.
John has made it clear that he has no problem with substantive gripes with Obama and I feel the same way. The problem for the firebaggers is that they rarely have any substance to their ‘arguments’.
They like the GOS because they can get their firebagging buds to hide rate stuff that offends their tender sensibilities. I’m glad I gave up posting at that shithole over five years ago. I changed my password by typing in some random keys without looking and never thought about resetting it.
I do have to say that I am enjoying the whiners who are pissed at DK4 though. Makes for very entertaining reading, something that is rare over there.
ETA: I do think it’s funny to see Mincing Mizner whining about John being “embraced” since he was for the Iraq War while Kos was fighting it. That was good for another lol.
scav
@Ash Can: Except that words are viruses and she’s now the eternal typhoid mary of selfish jerkoffism. Our Holy Patient Zero of Unending Self-Justifying Self-Glorifying Greed.
Bob In Pacifica
The little vignette reminded me of Matthew Sweet’s “Sick Of Myself”, except that while he hates himself in the song he does like the woman. Which puts him higher on the emotional scale. 100% Fun.
morzer
“I want you to know this.”
Ayn stood by the bed, dressed, looking down at him. Her voice had pronounced it evenly, with great clarity and no inflection. He looked up at her obediently. She said: “What I feel for you is contempt. But it’s nothing compared to the contempt I feel for myself. I don’t love you, Greenspan. I’ve never loved anyone. I wanted you from the first moment I saw you. I wanted you as one wants a whore – for the same reason and purpose.”
Michael
Dagny don’t cuddle after lovin’. She sneers and berates bad lovers for technique.
SFAW
I don’t know if this reaffirms irony, or kills it.
And the sense of “Intellectual rigor – how do that work?”
It’s a bit telling that Greenspan is/was not as smart as some nut-case with a half-baked philosophy and a view of the world and people that bordered on the sociopathic. Thank FSM we entrusted the handling of the Economy to him for 47 years – what could have gone wrong?
morzer
@Michael:
But how do you respond?
The Raven
Why, in all the criticism of Rand and Randroidism, is there so little mention of just how crazy she was? I wonder if she was an abuse survivor–had her sexuality and capability for intimacy poisoned early. Or…reactive attachment disorder?
Hominids.
jnfr
“She looked up at him obediently.”
…
Villago Delenda Est
@Michael:
Well,when you sleep with guys who are “mathematically precise”, you tend to do a lot of judging on technique, as there’s nothing else to evaluate.
c u n d gulag
I read her on my own right after finishing college.
I will say this – her books are SO f*cking horrible, you can’t put them down. You have to turn the page for what the next unempathetic train wreck of a “character” has to say, or for her next jujune sex/love scene. And then there’s the endless prosylizing in 50+ page chunks.
Thanks anyway, but I won’t subject myself to that again.
NobodySpecial
@Bob In Pacifica: That is an awesome song from a time when he was following Todd Rundgren in the search for the perfect pop song.
But you should have linked the video!
Omnes Omnibus
@morzer: “I-got-mine-you-get-your-gasm.
Sentient Puddle
@JGabriel:
Nah, she’d hate them too. To her, the only allies she had were those that subscribed to the objectivist philosophy 100%. Anyone agreeing with a mere 99.5% was right out.
And while parsing that, try to ignore how the philosophy was supposed to be the antithesis to collectivism.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Raven:
This link may explain some of Rand’s, erm, quirks.
Chris
@dmsilev:
Much like “picking cotton” is not, in itself, an objectionable activity, but when used in a political context it tends to be unwise terminology.
morzer
@Villago Delenda Est:
You think she held up score cards at critical junctures?
Technique: 5.1
Effort: 4.3
etc..
Jennifer
I think the character’s name should be changed from “Hank Reardon” to “Rank Hardon.”
Michael
@Jules:
The gateman at the exclusive dance club and bar let young Dagny enter the club ahead of the moochers and looters who stood in line like sheep, even though they were obviously as wealthy and well-dressed as the brainy Dagny. Wiping a gobbet of the gateman’s lustful emission off of her chin, Dagny thought “there is nothing that will deter me in my purpose of satisfying every single whim I may have. Whether it be running grandfather’s railroad or spending a drunken evening with this skirt bunched up over my breasts as I get ravaged by every free thinking, purposeful man at the bar, I will have my way using any and all means available to me.”
SFAW
Wrong. With a high-powered rifle, she could have killed 10 or 20 people before getting caught. Unless all 10 or 20 were heads of state, etc., the general effect would have been shocking, but over-and-done-with in a year or two.
With her typewriter, she has managed to fuck up the lives of millions – all because her idiot acolytes, and those who subscribe to her beliefs, have been running a big chunk of the US for too f’ing long.
Plus, we wouldn’t have DougJonah’s ridiculous homework assignment. Which, by itself, might cause the collapse of Western Civilization.
morzer
@Sentient Puddle:
Objectivism is really just crudely reverse-engineered proletarian dictatorship Leninism, when you come down to it. Rand’s heroes are very much the same as Soc.ia.list Realist heroes, but with a different objective, so to speak.
Judas Escargot
@Jules:
The least we can do is have a “write a sex scene like Ayn Rand” contest….
Or any Randish scene. Could be BaJu’s answer to the Bad Hemingway Contest.
Seriously: I got my full quota of exposure to the Rand virus on alt.philosophy.objectivism over 15 years ago. You don’t want to do this.
If your true interest is in refuting her, it’s not about the fiction. It’s the “philosophy” books you want to plow through. (In the same way you “want” to pull an arrow the rest of the way through your arm, should you ever find yourself shot with a crossbow.)
Chris
@machine:
Of course. Minor ideological deviations and all that, much the same way Maoists and Marxist-Leninists hated each other’s guts.
Reputedly, Ayn Rand met William F. Buckley once and the very first thing she told him was “you’re much too smart to be a Christian.” Objectivism was very much a personality cult, with Ayn Rand serving as god/Kim Jong Il figure.
justawriter
@Jules:
“You are like a god. Mastercard or Visa?”
cmorenc
That Alan Greenspan was both (in his younger days) a devoted disciple of Ayn Rand and (in his older days) the Fed Chairman and supposed economic guru under George W. Bush who gave his influential economic blessing to the Bush Tax Cut proposals back in 2001…speaks volumes about the perils of Randoid-ism in high places.
Finally in 2010, Greenspan belatedly admitted that tax cuts (specifically referring to the Bush Tax cuts) do not “pay for themselves”.
It’s not so certain whether Alan Greenspan (who had a close personal relationship with Ayn Rand at one point) had sex with her, but the thought of what that might have been like should be enough to kill your erotic appetite for…just about anyone, anything for at least 24 hours.
Chris
@geg6:
And all this time the Borg have been accused of being a metaphor for communism! Life’s just not fair.
morzer
@Sentient Puddle:
Objectivism is really just crudely reversed proletarian dictatorship-style Leninism, when you come down to it. Rand’s heroes are very much the same as Soc.ia.list Realist heroes, but with a different objective, so to speak.
AhabTRuler
Telemachus Sneezed!
-h/t RAW (1932-2007) & RS (1993-1994)
ETA: How little it takes to get WP to shit itself! Fun times!!!!!!!!!!!
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
Is this a why-liberals-can’t-do-anything-together thread?
AhabTRuler
@Judas Escargot:
Please, for the love of Pete, strangle this infant in its crib, I beg you!
Omnes Omnibus
@AhabTRuler: Too Jewish.
Michael
@SFAW:
As we speak, I’m having a facebook argument with a self-professed Christian libertarian who is supporting Senator Mike Lee (Teabagger-UT) and his idiot notion that laws against child labor are unconstitutional.
The money shot from him in trying to undo the 20th century is that there is nothing wrong with discussing the dubious constitutionality of these laws.
I’m toying with the notion of defriending him.
eemom
Whatever happened to the good old days of bloggers who “read it so you don’t have to”? Hmmm??
machine
@Sentient Puddle:
Yup. And Rand was adamant that only herself and Branden were true teachers of Objectivist philosophy; everyone else was only a student.
Judas Escargot
@AhabTRuler:
Consider it sacrificed. On the Altar of Pure Reason, of course.
We shall not speak of it again.
morzer
@eemom:
You know, maybe we’ve finally found a use for Matoko-chan. It’s not as if she could get less coherent or more annoying, after all. I nominate her to read the wretched book and report back to us.
Dexter
OT. Kent Conrad is retiring in 2012.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
You know, when I read that, I heard Harvey Korman in my head.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: … and this is a bad thing?
MikeJ
Sunday I was world hopping on lotro, comparing the quality of community of different servers. On one a guy named “Galt” was spouting non-stop until I used John Rogers’ quote in the absolute best context evar.
Yes, while running around middle earth online I got to repeat to a guy named Galt, “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
Oddly enough he went away after that.
4tehlulz
@Michael: I’m sure Jesus would approve of a society that allows mill owners to hire thirteen-year-old girls, work them for 14 hrs a day, then screw them at night in order to keep said job.
ThresherK
Dagny Taggart was the last entrepreneur to not go demanding a govermnent handout for the sake of competitiveness. Seems like her adolescent fans should go back to lusting after a creature more likely to exist, like their fantasies about their first Playboy centerfold.
@Jules: As far as an Ayn Rand Sex Scene contest, PLEASE DON’T. The Bulwer-Lytton submitters are purposefully, knowingly bad, which is a self-recognizing quality I don’t wish to depend on Randites having.
Sly
@machine:
But, as we would later learn, being a true teacher of Objectivism entailed fucking Ayn Rand. When Branden stopped doing that and began fucking someone far younger than her, well, his credentials suddenly came into question.
Sentient Puddle
@MikeJ: Was that particular server Elendilmir? I used to play on that one and noticed a surprising number of Rand followers there. Was good friends with a few, even after they put up with the constant ribbing.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Ija: And you know who I found on the diary, commenting about how disagreeing with Obama will get you banned here: David Mizner. As if he’s actually been banned for disagreeing with Obama.
chopper
@SFAW:
yeh, outside of the worries it gives me that greenspan was so easily schooled by a certifiably insane woman, the truth is when it comes to sitting around the table arguing philosophy the most orthodox hardcore one is likely to be the most consistent and thus ‘win’, at least on paper. it’s hard to win a philosophical chess match when you live in the real world and care about things and the other person is a psychopath who doesn’t care about shit. you’re arguing about ‘in a perfect world…’, which is what objectivism is all about.
FormerSwingVoter
Out of that entire block of text, is it weird that that part struck me as weirdly, unnecessarily creepy?
Like… how does someone look at you obediently? Why would they? Does his sperm have mind control drugs in it?
Ugh. Ayn Rand makes my brain hurt.
Omnes Omnibus
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): The only people I am aware of who have been banned and/or exiled for a time have been B.O.B., and change. I think WyldPirate may have been asked to take a break after some things said on an ABL thread. None of these were remotely due to criticisms of Obama. Where does this meme get its start?
The Moar You Know
Had an ex-girlfriend really into those books. Not to anyone’s surprise, she really got off on being tied up and slapped around.
eemom
A commenter, I think her name is Nicole but I’m not sure, posted not too long ago about a biography of Ayn Rand she was reading, and how it enabled her to understand some of the things in Rand’s background that made her what she was.
It was the most, and likely the only, interesting and insightful thing I’ve ever read in the vast, boring universe of blog posts about Ayn Rand.
Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey))))))
@geg6:
That’s the most fucked up thing I’ve seen in a while. Even the slaughter in Arizona isn’t as fucked up as that, somehow. I always knew that Rand was an antisocial weirdo, with her “selfishness is a virtue” and “helping others is bad for society”–though I never knew that she called altruism “social cannibalism” or whatever it was–but I never knew just how fucked up she was.
A sadistic, psychopathic killer is her hero? What the fuck? Really, what the fuck? What kind of asshole thinks that? Is that what she thought we all should strive to become? I know this is an obvious thing to ask, but did she ever think through what kind of world this would be if everybody behaved like that guy? How much freedom could she have had if all of society lived like that Hickman guy?
And the weird thing is that she fled Stalin’s U.S.S.R. She had nothing but bad things to say about Stalin and his violent, psychopathic regime, and on that, at least, I agree with her. But how did she think the U.S.S.R. she so hated had come to be? In large part, it was Stalin’s work. The psychopathic U.S.S.R. reflected the psychopathic Stalin himslef. Stalin was, to my mind at least, much like Hickman, only Stalin had much wider scope to spread death and pain and suffering than Hickman had. How could she hate Stalin and then turn around and apotheosize Hickman? And what does it say about this country that so many people admire this woman and her philosophy [sic]?
Nicole
@machine: Of course, once Branden ditched her for a 25-year-old, he became a deceiving parasite, because, according to Rand’s philosophy, he should have been sexually attracted to her even if she were 80 and in a wheelchair. Which she told him.
Martin
It’s incredibly cruel to subject us west coasters to Ayn Rand sex excerpts first thing in the morning. Can we at least get some coffee in us first?
Cat Lady
@Omnes Omnibus:
These are the same people who cut themselves as teenagers and take up with the bad girls/boys cuz they’ll show you who’s the boss of them. They’re legends in their own minds.
Linda Featheringill
@Omnes Omnibus:
When completely removed from any cultural context and viewed from an entirely ahistorical perspective, Palin’s statement is not completely incorrect.
But without context and without history, can any statement be part of reality?
eemom
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
He’s a Hamsherbot, also too — so it’s no wonder he turns into a whiny ass, lying victim-troll when people disagree with him.
Ash Can
@machine: I seem to recall reading a review of a book the Brandens wrote about their relationship with Rand. A key element to understanding this relationship is that their last name was their own fabrication, based on “ben Rand;” i.e., the Hebrew version of “son of Rand.” At one point, they say, Rand sat down with Mrs. Branden and gave her a very detailed intellectual explanation of why she (Rand) should sleep with Mr. Branden. Seriously, some people just don’t know enough to come in out of the fucking rain.
PurpleGirl
@MikeJ: That quote, while good, has become a cliche. But you used it in just the perfect setting for it, to precisely the person it should be said. Bravo! Brilliant!
eemom
@Nicole:
aha! I was right, ’twas you.
TomG
Um, late to the discussion but, you all do know that Ayn Rand is hardly libertarian territory ? She HATED libertarians.
There are plenty of (often better written) novels written by libertarians.
Alongside Night, by J. Neil Schulman is one of them.
But then, only Ayn Rand gives you guys easy targets to make fun of, rather than try to relate to.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linda Featheringill: That was rather my point.
Damned at Random
I read Atlas Shrugged on a boring business trip some years ago- because so many of my wingnut coworkers were pushing it on me. I honestly don’t remember ANY sex scenes.
Of course, I was a harried, middle aged professional and not a pimply face virgin so it takes a little more to keep my attention.
RossInDetroit
@Martin:
Weakling!
Nicole
@Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey)))))): She didn’t exactly say he was her hero for being a psychopathic killer. She claimed she didn’t support what he’d done, but supported his turning his back on society and refusing to conform to it. The fact that the way he turned his back on society was by killing a teenage girl was less important to her than what she saw as the individualist essence of his character. Which makes no sense, but, well, have you read her novels?
I think she just liked the guy because he was attractive. Regarding the speculations on Greenspan- she’d never have slept with him because he wasn’t handsome. Her husband was handsome and Branden was handsome and that really seemed to be her big criteria- if a guy was hot, she’d ascribe all kinds of things to his personality in order to justify her attraction to him. She’d have loved the Twilight novels. Edward Cullen is totes Howard Roark in high school.
Ash Can
@Omnes Omnibus: OT, but I missed the banning of change completely. What happened?
Omnes Omnibus
@TomG:what makes you think this is all about libertarian hate? Rand is completely deserving of mockery on her own.
Linda Featheringill
@4tehlulz:
#105.
Amen!
Omnes Omnibus
@Ash Can: It happened after the Giffords shooting. change was in threads being particularly appalling, gratuitously so, and Cole dropped the hammer.
Nicole
@eemom: Aw, thanks eemom. Which is not to say I don’t also make fun of her; it’s just that, after reading the bios, I mostly felt sorry for her.
My senior year English teacher had us students, as our final project, read two books by an American author and then create a brochure for a college based on that writer’s philosophy of life. I picked Rand, mostly because I’d already read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and was lazy. But I admit, making that brochure was more fun than any homework project had a right to be. I still remember writing myself a rejection letter from the college because I did not meet the minimum height requirement.
chopper
@Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey)))))):
she got off on male authority. that’s why all the female characters in her books are all obedient women who get raped and like it. she hated stalinism primarily because it wasn’t any sort of consistent philosophy and the lack of individual freedom, not because of the deaths and murders of ‘ordinary people’ she wouldn’t have given a fuck about anyways.
deep down inside rand respected and loved stalin. she hated that fact, and much of her philosophy appears to be a wacky attempt at rationalization because of the cognitive dissonance she felt, because it all stems from a love of male authority.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
Seriously. The difference between “Libertarians” and “Randites” is pretty much like the degrees between “Leninists”, “Stalinists”, “Maoists”, and “Trotskyites”.
Ash Can
@Omnes Omnibus: A right-wing troll being gratuitously appalling? I’m shocked, shocked!
Michael
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Mizner is a whinybitch tool. Always has been, always will be. Were he to suceed in his goal in making sure that he’s got progressively pure Democrats and the GOP has a vetoproof majority, he’d be quickly rounded up and imprisoned for his superior liberalness.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ash Can: Other trolls came in and managed to be trollish without bringing down the hammer. change was, if I recall, more gleeful than anything else.
Michael
@4tehlulz:
Why do you hate America, Sweet Baby Jesus and the Troops? How come you want the terrorists to win?
JGabriel
TomG:
And yet, no self-described libertarian I’ve ever met has ever recommended to me any other author but Rand.
I’m not saying my experience is the one to judge all libertarians by, just that if others share my experience, then it’s not surprising we’d focus on Rand’s oeuvre as the libertarian’s bible.
.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, having your feelings hurt is exactly the same as banning. Probably a blood libel somehow.
Villago Delenda Est
@Linda Featheringill:
I believe this is a profound insight into the “mind” of Sarah Palin.
It’s the torrential stupid that issues from her pie hole, that her adoring fanbase finds so attractive. That’s what drives me bonkers.
pk
I refuse to read a book where the main characters are named Hank Reardon and Dagny Taggart.
Michael
Christ on a Stick – I thought that Lee was just stupid on his own and fringe-y enough to not be taken seriously outside teabaggot circles.
The crazy fucker is GOP royalty, for God’s sake.
JAHILL10
@TomG: Superior writing style would not make the philosophy more palatable. Besides it is Rand’s works on which the “greed is good” market fundamentalists keep recommending that we pattern our society.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@TomG: I think what gets everyone going on about Rand here is the conservatives who think they are libertarians because they have read Rand. So a lot of us have read Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead. That’s why she’s an easy target.
Nutella
Not surprisingly, Rand also seems to have gone in for astrology. In that article about Farrah Fawcett she says
There’s that shared belief in “the importance of mathematics and intellectual rigor” again!
James Hare
I’ve actually been reading Atlas Shrugged for a few weeks now. It is without a doubt one of the most tedious novels I’ve ever read. The dialogue is wooden and unbelievable. The plot requires magical metals, trains and oil extraction techniques. Hell, you’re supposed to believe a transcontinental railroad was built with no government assistance. I’m not even sure if I’ll finish the dang book. It’s so tedious I can barely read 3 pages without falling asleep.
Shinobi
I never got far enough into her books to get to a sex scene. I am suddenly WAY more appalled by the middle school kids I used to see wearing “Objectivist” t-shirts. Had they read these books? And what must they think about what sex is supposed to be like?
rec
@dmsilev:
Maybe it’s just me, because I’m not a native English speaker, but aren’t these two things just the opposite of each other?
Blood libel means (stripping the religious connotations) being falsely accused. Having blood on your hands means being responsible for somebody else’s death.
I actually think that makes for a better Palinism. Idiom A obviously means B, or the opposite of B. Any of them, all of them.
Nicole
@chopper:
Not exactly- she was all about hero worship, and believed that when a woman found a man who embodied her ideals, she would naturally worship him, which is where the submission and rape stuff comes from. Well, actually, I think the submission and rape fantasies came from her own personal desires- she was very emotionally immature and the romances really are like a teenager’s daydreams. Ergo the appeal to teenagers.
I don’t disagree with you about the approval of Stalinist methods, though. She said as much in the original edition of We the Living.
sukabi
well now I know why the the RW nuts love the GOP and Ayn Rand… That morning after talk is EXACTLY how the GOP and their talking heads feels about and treats their base…
such lovely people.
Michael
@James Hare:
Lets not forget the magical radio that overcomes all other frequencies (kind of like the Vogon message to Earth in HHG), the magic static machine and the sudden disappearance of any ability to make any decision in nearly the entirety of the population.
Also, the petty thing that pisses me off the most? That the model industry owner (Old Man Starnes) didn’t pay his line laborers enough for them to be able to afford to collect record albums on their regular pay. They had to work overtime in order to afford a hobby.
rdldot
@MikeJ: That is beautiful. I’m stealing it.
Amir_Khalid
@rec: That quote from Sarah Palin just proves one thing: we mustn’t assume that a native speaker of English has actually learned to communicate coherently in the language. Palin clearly hasn’t. Either that, or she refuses to speak coherently because she figures it smacks of elitism and might alienate her -marks- supporters.
All the same, that breathtaking example of incoherence must be a personal best for her.
bcinaz
Well, that certainly gives me a better understanding of the Banksters
Can no one come up with a tax rate that will make them go GALTforREAL?
sukabi
@JGabriel: he’s sympathizing with the shooter… the press after an event like that is brutal. So many people passing judgment.
Oh wait…
Chris
@Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey)))))):
Not weird at all; it’s a common phenomenon. There are plenty of victims of Nazi brutality whose experiences drove them right into Stalin’s arms. Similarly, Communist brutality drove plenty of people into the arms of fascistic psychopaths, or in the case of Ayn Rand, led her to develop her own form of insanity.
RossInDetroit
I was and am disturbed by Reardon’s divorce. IIRC his wife sleeps with James Taggart so he abandons her. To get a divorce he bribes the judge. Like subverting justice with money was no big thing. Law just another marketplace and everything has a price.
Appalling.
different church-lady
I wonder if Greenspan wooed Andrea Mitchell with this kind of stuff…
frosty
@lacp: Iron Dream! Now THAT was a good read. Adolf Hitler as a middling sci-fi author, with this being his only remotely famous book. Swastikas, leather, and Nazi paraphernalia at ComicCon instead of Nuremburg.
All hail the Great Truncheon of Held!
Psychobroad
@c u n d gulag: That is exactly the right way to put it. Her books are so horrible you can’t put them down. I think you may win the tubes today!
Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey))))))
@Nicole:
No, you’re right. I didn’t put it as well as I should have. I guess what disgusts me is that this scumbag Hickman killed a little girl pretty much just for kicks, but that doesn’t disqualify him right from the get-go from being a “hero”.
Everybody has flaws. I have them. Martin Luther King, at least from what I’ve heard, cheated on his wife. Roosevelt cheated on his wife. Woodrow Wilson, who was a revolutionary thinker, and whose Peace without Victory, if the Europeans had heeded him, might have stove off World War II, had pretty ugly beliefs about race in America.
All 3 of those guys were flawed, yet I would rank them as among the greatest Americans of the 20th Century. Hickman, though, wasn’t just a flawed guy who was otherwise worthy of admiration; he was sewage. I find it disgusting and beyond belief that Rand would admire somebody like that. To me at least, when I hear some guy tortured and killed a little girl because he thought it would be fun, well, that pretty much disqualifies him as a role model for me. It’s a dealbreaker. For Rand, well, it’s just an idiosyncracy.
Alwhite
@RossInDetroit:
I had completely forgotten about that. At the end he is having sex with is clones as I recall. Very odd to say the least. This was really the start of his decent as an author. His last book all seemed to involve his characters finding ways to live forever. Freud would have a holiday on this guy!
@Chyron HR:
But he does do “the right thing” in putting the good of the many ahead of his own petty self-interest. He was preparing to “go galt” when he knew WWI was going to start but consciously decided that was not the moral path. That moves him up the evolutionary scale from the single-cell Rand to human.
ruemara
Well, I’m stripping off my panda jammies and feeling all throbby, thanks to that passage.
Jager
@geg6:
and Mary Ann Sures (formerly Rukavina)
What prompted Rukavina to become Mary Ann Sures? Was Rukavina too powerful of a name for those chisel jawed, clear-eyed, broadchested guys like Nathaniel and Alan to handle? Rukavina sounds like a woman who would be leading a band of insurgents or a woman in high leather boots, wearing a black leather corset and carrying a riding crop.
catpal
a CEO once called me naive – and said that I should read Ayn Rand. That was a huge signal to the Corruption going on in that company.
that Alternet article on Rand is amazing and not shocking that she worshipped a socio-psychopathic serial killer.
interesting note in that article –
I guess most US economic policy makers have gone totally Rand now – and believe that the rest of us are just parasites.
lllphd
wait. someone remind me – why are we agreeing to torture ourselves with this project again?
i mean, i’ve tried – three times – to read ayn rand, and each time, i could not get through the first hundred pages.
she is heartless. she is nasty. she is not even the least bit logical. she bases her entire philosophy on the premise that it’s not just ok to be cruel and selfish, but it’s cool.
i’m sure i have stepped on someone’s unfeeling randian toes out there, and that i won’t be missed. but sheez, people; what a colossal waste of time.
Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey))))))
@Villago Delenda Est:
Seems like anybody who admires Ayn Rand ought to have to read that.
Nicole
@Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey)))))): And I agree with you, but then, you and I don’t have difficulty with reality. ;) I was just clarifying Rand’s position. Not because I’m a fan; I’m not (as I said in one of the earlier threads about her, I read her books because I, gack, had a crush on a boy who adored her and did it to get his attention. Oh, what we’ll do for young love…). But I think her glorification of Hickman says something about her desperate need to invent personalities for people who did not in any way match up to what she wanted them to be. Her husband was a great example: he was mild-mannered, docile and very passive. But to read what she says about him you’d think he was John Galt incarnate. Which he wasn’t. Hickman was a sociopathic murderer, but Rand turned him in her head into a heroic loner making a stand against society. Again, I think she did it because she thought he was handsome. (Well, even Ted Bundy found someone to marry him.)
Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey))))))
@lllphd:
I go along with this. I think that what some people really like about Ayn Rand is that her “philosophy” is nothing more than a way to excuse being a selfish asshole, or even to do away that there is such a thing as a selfish asshole. After all, how many of us want to think of ourselves as selfish assholes? I don’t. And my way of not having to think of myself as a selfish asshole is, if you can believe it, by not being a selfish asshole.
Now I understand that this approach will not work for Rush Limabaugh and hordes of other greedy, soulless dickheads like him, so they need another tack. And that’s where Rand comes in. She has laid out for them a way to justify their selfish assholism. By citing her, they get to live a selfish, assholish life, but they get to say that not only are they not the selfish assholes that so many of us believe they are, they are, rather, the few true good, upright, socially benificent souls who are working to raise the world up to a higher level. Not only that, but according to Rand, it is we, the people who at first glance are not selfish assholes who are the true selfish assholes.
They get to wallow in their sociopathy and think of themselves as the truly good people. At the same time, they get to sneer at the rest of us as being the real bad guys. This is a boon to selfish assholes who have the sneaky little feeling somewhere deep in the festering mires that pass for their souls that they might be selfish assholes. Ayn Rand gives them a way to wave those niggling little feelings of self-doubt away and go on with their lives feeling good about themselves. This, I guess, is her purpose, such as it is.
Woodrowfan
WORST PET POST EVER!
SFAW
re: Villago @ 80
I had heard about the Hickman situation (not to minimize it), but hadn’t taken the time to read about him until you gave the link, and Mumphrey mentioned it.
Holy shit. That Rosenbaum/Rand would even consider using Hickman as a model for a hero is fucked up beyond words.
I don’t know which is worse, though: that she would do that, or that her fans (presumably, although not definitely) would make excuses for her about it, if they knew.
lllphd
@Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey)))))):
whew. glad the one reply i got on this was in agreement.
and well put, …um, whoever you are? (i actually like the squeevil.)
asiangrrlMN
I read The Fountainhead back in the day because I thought it was some kind of classic or some shit like that. I don’t remember a single thing about it except it was horrible. When I found out more about Ayn Rand’s philosophy, as it were (didn’t know her before reading the book), I was perplexed. Wanting to help others was wrong and selfish? Only by being selfish and asshole-ish could we truly be good people? WTF? I dismissed her from my mind and naively thought I’d never have to think about her again. Silly, foolish girl.
SFAW (formerly(formerly(formerly SFAW)))
One outta two ain’t bad
SFAW
••• Your comment is awaiting moderation •••
WTF??
One out of two is not bad.
[Does I needs to use well English to avoids moderation, is dat it?]
Origuy
I just had a horrid thought about a cross between Randites and the furries from ABL’s post on Friday. For my sanity’s sake, I’m not going any further with that.
I’ve never read any of Rand. The first time I heard of Objectivism, I was on the BOD of a recreation club at work. We had some funds from the recycling of printer paper and punch cards (yes, children, we programmed computers with bits of cardboard!) to sponsor events like ice skating and ski trips. This one guy wanted to start an Objectivist discussion club. I guess he wanted us to buy copies of Atlas Shrugged. We passed on that.
Origuy
@SFAW: WP doesn’t like it when you change your name. It thinks you’re trying to troll or spam or something. I don’t know how they get away with it on Sadly, No! where it’s part of the culture.
SFAW
Origuy –
Thanks. Figured it had something to do with the 81 open/close parens I added, but am not enough of a geek (i.e., about this stuff) to know.
Dare I add an “FYWP”?
Brassknuckle Diplomacy
Rand admittedly was not approving of Hickman’s actual crime, but felt that other people’s revulsion to it stemmed from Hickman’s independence and refusal to go along with the crowd. Rather than, you know, being repulsed by such a sadistic, inhuman monster.
She loved one particular Hickman quote: “What is good for me is right.” That sold her right there. Anything else he did was inconsequential compared to summing up her own base feelings for her so succinctly.
Randroids and some other libertarians love her so much because no one before or since has provided the immense volumes of intellectual-sounding garbage that supports what a lot of nerdy teenage boys believe about themselves:
1. I am very special, and it’s only the stupidity of others that prevents me from being recognized as such.
2. Those others are *undeserving* of anything other than punishment due to my resentment.
3. Chicks really like it when you are too awkward to speak to them like humans, they interpret it as you being too smart for them.
Triassic Sands
Worst idea ever. EVER!
For god’s sake, do something worthwhile with your time — like do heroin or watch Mr. Ed reruns. Or both.
tdd
Just getting the cookie for the mobile site
A Humble Lurker
@The Moar You Know:
Oh God, YES! That’s it exactly! You get the feel from this passage it’s cut off right before: “Now get down here and lick my shoes, bitch.”
As for the passage itself….damn. I’d heard Rand was bad, but that’s just…that’s just rank. Not even for payment would I subject myself to that. Not even for Balloon Juice Grade Snark™. Can’t do it.
4jkb4ia
@Ija:
And I thought that John’s tolerating me made him a candidate for beatification or something. John must have decided I am an idiot 5 times over by now.