Stop spending ten years and who knows how many millions of dollars on stupid shit like getting a one count conviction of Barry Bonds for lying about using juice. The other counts all ended in mistrial.
Reader Interactions
114Comments
Comments are closed.
Joel
lesson learned: lie and obstruct and keep writing checks for expensive lawyers. Otherwise, go the way of Marion Jones and get imprisoned for your honesty.
Violet
The government could stop wasting their time on baseball in general. The whole Roger Clemens circus a few years back was ridiculous.
nisl
No doubt. And while we are at it how about we stop spending tens of millions investigating/witch hunting over oral sex?
sistermoon
Another dangerous criminal taken off the streets.
I’ll sleep much better tonight.
johnny walker
It’s frustrating to see and easy to turn into a “omg look how stupid our governments is” anecdote, but the total cost of the whole thing (including the original Balco investigation that wasn’t specific to Bonds) is like $50m.
Seems to me that framing this as a level of savings that’s… not significant, but even noticable… might be winning the battle, but it’s losing the war. “Gotta start somewhere” frame, well if $50m is an important savings then let’s see what else we can cut $50m from, etc.
Halteclere
I love how Congress loves to hammer baseball players for perjury (see Roger Clemens), but will not bring a single charge against a political appointee, industry titan, etc. no matter the egregious act. Way to be tough, Congress!
Martin
Wasted money? But Bonds is black!
Tom Q
Barry Bonds is found guilty of being a jerk.
I’m actually impressed they only managed to nail him once, considering how unsympathetic a defendant he makes.
My theory is, if Bonds had never mainlined the steroids and turned himself into the greatest player who ever lived, our ever-vigilant press would never have looked into the “scandal”, Official Good Guy Mark McGwire would be a Hall of Famer, and Manny Ramirez would be on the field tonight.
Villago Delenda Est
John, surely you realize that spending 10 years and countless thousands of dollars prosecuting a black dude for lying about steroid use is one of the most important things (besides murdering brown people in wedding parties) that our Federal Government does.
kth
@johnny walker: The Balco prosecution was always about reeling in a high-profile conviction, preferably resulting in a perp walk on the nightly news. That’s how nearly all prosecutors think.
Villago Delenda Est
@Halteclere:
You left out not even bothering to investigate the banksters who fucked up the economy four years ago.
Martin
@johnny walker: The problem is the manner in which it was handled. Rather than Congress stroking off to their ability to get big money ballplayers in their hearing room, they should have simply told MLB to fix the problem or they lose their media monopoly exemption. Threaten their free money ride and the steroids will vanish.
kdaug
Let’s start here.
Mike E
And I really needed to hear about the state of Barry’s ‘nards
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I want to start up a sports league based on actually using performance enhancing drugs. It’s time to build a better human.
punkdavid
Emotion clouds my judgment about what is “proper” when it comes to Barry Bonds and Pete Rose. All I know is that those two guys are dicks, and I feel good when they get fucked.
New Yorker
Priorities, John. Throwing an unlikeable jerk athlete under the bus makes us feel good enough to almost forget that the galtian geniuses who almost sank the global economy are still calling the shots.
Roger Clemens is next.
MattR
IDK. Illegal distribution of steroids, HGH and the like is the part of the drug war that I have the least problem with. It seems like there was a good reason to start an investigation. And once you start looking into it you can’t allow people to lie to the government with impunity. OTOH, I think that if they were actually spending all this money to get Bonds for using steroids, that would definitely have been overkill.
scav
OT but speaking of bankers, anybody seen this mentioned on local, that is to say, this continent news-sources?
World economists urge G20 ministers to accept Robin Hood tax
More than 50 number-crunchers have written to policymakers asking them to impose levy on City speculators to help poor
David in NYC
@Joel —
How is that the lesson learned? After all the lying and obstructing and writing of checks, Bonds is still going to jail (well, I guess the lying and obstructing and check writing did buy him some time).
As for the general premise: It’s a good idea to save money by not prosecuting people who lie under oath to a grand jury. Really? People should be allowed to lie, under oath, with impunity? That’s a good idea? On what planet, exactly?
Do you feel exactly the same way about Scooter Libby and Martha Stewart? Would you feel the same way about Dick Cheney and the Koch brothers?
Actually, I am with Violet: Congress had no business whatsoever getting involved in the first place in baseball’s steroid “problem”. But that is not the crux of the problem here.
johnny walker
@kth: Oh sure. I’d agree that they set out to nail a baseball player/high profile athlete/whatever, but I’m not aware of them having a specific preference as to who. I have no idea how serious John is about this; I assume he’s just venting. I agree the whole thing is stupid and from a pragmatic or simply a personal “oh wtf” standpoint should never have happened. But on the political level, we probably want to be careful with the “You want to save some money? Reduce government expenditures by a ten-thousandth of a percent!” stuff. I’m not aware of the budget details, but did this even add to expenditures? Or did it come outt’ve money they was already appropriated? Maybe someone smarter than I can clue us in.
Not that I buy the occasional thing that sweeps the comment section where anonymous BJ commentators are capable of influencing the discourse, so careful how we express ourselves! etc. But I figure it bears pointing out in the context that we might not realize it’s… if not a conservative frame, then conservative frame-esque.
And come to think of it, if the point was to nail Bonds specifically it probably won’t be a very effective one. It’s not like sports fans tend to be particularly outraged about steroids (‘Win and all is forgiven’) and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that tons of casuals have already forgotten who the guy is.
Villago Delenda Est
@David in NYC:
Like these vile pieces of human sewage will ever be indicted, much less brought to trial for their crimes.
ppcli
It’s a bit like getting Al Capone on tax evasion to get Bonds on lying under oath. In the best of all possible worlds he would be convicted for multiple violations of federal “don’t be such a goddamned douchebag” statues.
Mike E
@punkdavid: The all time hits leader, all time homer hitter, one time single season homer record holder and an all time great (top 5) right handed hitter will probably never make it into the Hall of Fame.
There are a-holes a’plenty in Cooperstown, also too, but you gotta fuck up hard to get banned from the place.
The Dangerman
Probably a waste of money, but I’m assuming they are trying to convict Bonds/Clemens in order to get them to flip over the PEDs dispensers.
Dennis SGMM
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Fuck that; robots, baby. Who could resist watching robo-pitchers fire 172MPH fastballs toward catchers in sandbag emplacements while robo-batters with reflexes garnered form the computers developed for stock trading swing titanium bats?
The Great American Pastime is seriously lagging the technology.
joes527
Good point. Prosecuting the rich, who can bury you for years with their own lawyers is obviously a loosing proposition. It is much more lucrative to prosecute the poor.
catpal
@New Yorker: major ahole Roger Clemens should have been convicted already – he even tried to get rid of his Nanny.
Tsulagi
Semi off topic but kinda funny. Teabagger Commander EE over at RedState is feeling deflated. No doubt a chronic condition in some areas, but anyway the cause of his angst is this WaPo piece: CBO: Budget deal cuts this fiscal year’s deficit by just $353 million, not $38 billion touted. $353 million. So about the market size of wetsuits and dildoes expenditures for the teabagger brigades. For one year.
Even funnier is that Orange Guy will have to deliver House votes for it this week or at least give it his best shot. Otherwise his word and authority as Speaker would be nothing. Not that keeping one’s word or agreements means that much for most pols, but still there’s the optics.
les
@ppcli:
If only.
Interest. Newsletter? Website?
Martin
@The Dangerman: Yes, because once the steroid supplier is incarcerated, there’s no way that guys that earn $20M per year will be able to find more juice.
Honestly, this is even dumber than the usual drug war. If shooting up will earn you $10M more next year and $50M more for your employer, hell yeah they’re going to keep doing it and the employers look the other way. Threaten to take away the money from the employer, and at least then you have someone working toward the same goal as you. It won’t stop it because there’s too much money on the line for the players, but it’ll slow it up a good bit.
Gustopher
Prosecuting perjurers is a good thing.
There are many, many more to prosecute, but this is a start.
Mark S.
When’s the last time a high profile defendant in federal court got convicted of anything besides perjury? Scooter, Martha, Blago.
ETA: I guess Michael Vick. Or was that perjury as well?
Maude
@Villago Delenda Est:
I closed my Bank of America checking account today. The bank was in a convenient location is why I had it there. Will open an account in a small bacnk.
I am beyond disgust with the big banks.
Dennis SGMM
@joes527:
I may be crazy (Okay: I am crazy now) but I recall reading an item back around 2006 wherein the head of the IRS stated that they would pretty much abandon their efforts to go after high-level offenders because it was easier and less trouble to go after low-level offenders.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
i was a life long fan, but steroids turned me off baseball for good.
not the idea that some players might be using them, but all the crying and moaning about them. serious lost a few friends over insisting early on that it didn’t matter one bit and that who was using what when was irrelevant. now a lot of baseball fans seem to have reached that stage.
that said, bonds is an asshole.
best bonds assholery…
a little league team got to tour the clubhouse because they won their championship. like all good little league teams they had a fat kid. this was very early in his career, so bonds actually noticed they were there. out of no where, bonds, it is told, out of no where starts belittling then berating the fat kid. well beyond lose weight, you will get chicks some day, be a better ballplayer, whatevs…no bonds pretty much called the kid fat and went from there, like how dare there be a fat kid in his presence.
even knowing that and a bunch of others. every time he batted i would watch. it was compelling…and i haven’t watched a live at bat in several years.
RobertB
Our gracious host probably has a soft spot for when Barry Bonds was with the Pirates back around ’90. He was an asshole even back then, though. :)
/go Reds
Martin
@catpal: Nah. Clemens should be forced to stand naked, feet clamped to the ground while every NL player is invited to throw fastballs at his head from 60 feet.
FTFY and fuck the DH and fuck Clemens.
300baud
This is fucking absurd.
Yes, it’s expensive to convict rich people, because they can afford to fight, and are willing to spend a lot doing it. But obstruction of justice is one of the most serious crimes a person can commit.
If Bonds, et al, had owned up to their crimes and apologized, that would have been a great outcome: they would have done a little time, and all of the people who look up to Bonds would have learned a good lesson about how to handle fucking up something important. And hey, maybe we could have had an honest conversation about doping.
But they didn’t. They tried to conceal it. They thumbed their noses as the public, the sport, the fans, and the justice system that is a bedrock of our democracy. They, like so many of the rich and powerful, acted as if they were above the law, and above honesty. Fuck them.
I don’t give two shits about all of baseball, but I care immensely that we hold the rich just as accountable for their crimes as the poor. Wait, no. We should hold them more accountable. With privilege comes responsibility. For that, $50m is a bargain.
The Dangerman
@Martin:
After signing a huge contract, Carl Crawford suddenly can’t hit shit; now, awfully early, but if he goes the Bret Boone route, well, that would be a sham/shame.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gustopher:
Perjury is only a crime if it is NOT committed in the pursuit of your duties to the Dark Lord Cheney.
If it’s about a blowjob, or about using steroids, prosecute away!
Martin
@Gustopher: Lying before Congress is illegal. When is Jon Kyl going to be indicted for perjury for lying about PP? Indicting Bonds isn’t a start, it’s pretty much an end in such a target-rich environment.
MattR
Can someone here confirm something for me? IIRC, when Bonds gave his testimony to the grand jury he had been given immunity from prosecution for any steroid related offenses. Is that correct?
Just Some Fuckhead
Hell, they spent more than that trying to nail Tommy Chong.
Just Some Fuckhead
.. and about three times that on Bill Clinton for “lying” about oral sex.
Just Some Fuckhead
.. and no more than a billion a day on permawar to nail.. uh, to fight an act of terr.. emm, to destroy the enemies of our freedom, up to and including sanity.
Just Some Fuckhead
*Clearly* we don’t want to save money. So what is it we’re trying to do with all the deficit hysteria?
catpal
@Martin: YES!! and I want to be there with the NL players aiming for the Clemens ego-maniacal head – and maybe aiming at a few other parts of him too.
D-Chance.
Only 1 conviction? Wha… did Joe Biden sit in on that panel, too?
Evidently, this wasn’t a “big fucking thing”, nor was Obama’s little woodshed tantrum.
FlipYrWhig
I still feel like steroids are less useful in baseball than in any other sport, in that the defining act of playing baseball, hitting the ball with the bat, is so much more a matter of timing than of pure strength. You don’t need to be 6’6″, 370lbs to prosper in baseball.
lord karnage
I’ll let lawyers weigh in on issues relating to mistrials. However, as a competitve cyclist who spent two years (as an amateur!) racing in europe, and being exposed to the routine use of performance enhancing drugs by juniors in an attempt to make a career of it, I’m supportive of almost anything that will help us be honest about the role money plays in sports. In fairness, we’re way more puritanical about the topic here, and the litigation mentioned by OP is one of several indicators that this is true. Over there, drug use is more like due diligence; you’re expected to win and failure to do anything reasonable to attain that goal means you’re not trying. There’s also a very different attitude among fans, who overwhelmingly feel that drug use isn’t an issue because “they all still need to turn the pedals over” climbing extreme inclines and pedaling for hundreds or thousands of miles. This isn’t really that different from steroid use in pro football players. You don’t seriously believe they all happen to be that big and that fast and that strong and that resilient do you? And yet no one really asks about that. There’s a kind of desperation abroad, where a lot of kids will take risks for one simple reason: a career in sport holds potential, whereas if they fail, it’s likely back home to apprentice dad as a farmer or baker or some other existence. Not very compelling.
-lk
Amanda in the South Bay
Well, I’m no fan of the drug war, and I’m as big into sites like Erowid as much as the next person, but even I think that baseball players juicing it up ruined the sport for me. Granted, people like JC don’t think its a big deal, but then again they aren’t hard core baseball fans either.
The worst thing is that people like Bonds, Clemens, could still have had HOF careers had they never touched the stuff.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Just Some Fuckhead:
karen fletcher is a better example of the mary beth buchanan wasting money than tommy chong.
through her brave service to the country as a bush federal prosecutor, mbb got a disabled recluse sentenced to home confinement on obscenity charges for writing fictional stories.
a recluse sentenced to home confinement….that is some good justicin, there.
Ruckus
@kdaug:
Why do you upset me so, this early in the afternoon?
Villago Delenda Est
@Martin:
For that matter, when is the deserting coward going to be prosecuted for all the lies he told to Congress to get his military authorization to commit the United States to the first war of aggression by a major power since 1939?
trollhattan
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Hell, how much did Ken Starr blow on Whitewater? Bonds means little to me, as his ego and personality negate what he did on the field, pre and avec-juice. My greatest point of satisfaction is what the Giants were able to do after they were finally rid of him.
Hah!
Joe Beese
Oh, and speaking of American Justice…
Obama Trying to Nix Spain Prosecution of Bush Officials Again
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/13/966682/-Obama-Trying-to-Nix-Spain-Prosecution-of-Bush-Officials-Again
Villago Delenda Est
@FlipYrWhig:
Just look at Ichiro. Everything he does, as a batter, is wrong according to the Conventional Wisdom of baseball.
Mark S.
@FlipYrWhig:
Did you notice how many home runs those fuckers started hitting? Or how players started having career years in their late thirties? Steroids obviously help a lot in baseball.
MattR
Since this is a baseball thread, here is a fascinating piece about using technology to learn more about pitchers/pitching.
@Mark S.: Two words: Brady Anderson.
Joel
@David in NYC: Bonds is going to go to jail for obstruction of justice? I’m doubtful.
Martin
@FlipYrWhig: That strength really does help though. It’s much easier for someone built like Bonds to check a swing or pull an outside pitch into the outfield than someone built like me. And having enough strength that your muscles aren’t tapped out at the end of a double-header helps as well. Baseball is a game of statistics, and even making sure your foul balls wind up in the stands and not playable makes you measurably more valuable, let alone being able to hit a line drive to the outfield wall to bring a guy in from 2nd.
Hell, F1 drivers strength train like you wouldn’t believe, and to look at them they’re just sitting there for an hour and a half, but it’s the constancy of the activity that wears the athletes down even in what appears as a fairly non-demanding sport.
patrick II
I have no problem prosecuting Bonds. The trial is being used to place a stigma on those who use steroids to cheat and achieve athletic success. It is not about Bonds, but about the young athletes, including high school and junior high schoolers possibly by the thousands, who might idolize Bonds and Clemens and McGuire and try to achieve success the same way they have, by cheating. And in the end achieve only long term health problems as a result. Going after star steroid cheaters is fine with me.
The celebrity prosecution I didn’t like was of Martha Stewart. Her offense was trivial compared to the many high-profile big time Wall Streeters who walked away with humdreds of millions in profit from committing fraud. The DOJ did not have the balls to go after the big financial criminals, but went after Stewart instead.
Martin
@Joe Beese:
Shorter Beese: Why isn’t the defense attorney helping to convict this young man!?
sukabi
@Violet: according to the article, same fed is involved with that case as well as cases against Lance Armstrong and several other celebrities….
I’m NOT a sports fan, but is this really a good use of tax payer money? what about pursuing cases against the Wall Street Crew, they’ve had a real, devastating effect on the economies of country and the world … sports players are small potatoes comparatively, and the worst thing they do is collect their Million $$ salaries (private money) and act like spoiled children while half-assing their jobs. They aren’t responsible for crashing the economy, lying us into wars or even armed robbery.
FlipYrWhig
@Mark S.: Meh. Steroids help the ball go farther once you hit it. You still have to hit it, and steroids don’t help with that. Steroids have done much more to alter the course of _football_ history than baseball.
sukabi
@patrick II: who’s going to save the children from being the next Jamie Dimon or the AIG douchebag?
I think that’s a more important concern.
Martin
@patrick II: Actually, Stewart was the same kind of ‘profile’ case – sending a signal to connected individuals engaging in insider trading.
Neither one works just like the death penalty isn’t a crime deterrent. If you want to get steroids out of the game, give MLB a real financial incentive to get steroids out of the game and it’ll be done. As it is, MLB has a real financial incentive to keep steroids in the game.
kdaug
@Ruckus: Been an angry day. Apologies.
Don’t give a flying fuck about sports, period. Throw a ball, kick a ball, jump around, or use a little stick to knock a little disk into a net? Don’t fucking care.
I do care about being told that “we ain’t making good on that money you deposited with us ’cause we need to investigate sports.”
WereBear
It is pretty to think so; but young athletes tend to think “everybody does it!” and proceed on the assumption that they won’t be dumb enough to get caught.
Tell them they will die in twenty years, and they won’t care. They’re teenagers, and have no concept of time.
I do think drug use is wrong; it puts everyone in the corner of feeling like they have to use to to compete. And that’s unfair.
But to get serious about eliminating it, the hammer has to come down on the owners, too. Which is nowhere near happening.
Martin
@FlipYrWhig: Steroids absolutely help you hit it. With 5 games in a week plus batting practice, these guys are swinging that bat hundreds of times per week – many in anger, not to mention if they field chugging that ball home from 400′ out. You try doing that day in and day out and your fine motor skill to control that bat goes out unless you have a lot of extra strength to do it effortlessly. If you’re out there with rubber arms, you’re not going to hit shit.
FlipYrWhig
@Martin: The point about endurance/stamina is a good one. It helps explain why so many of the players who got caught were actually pitchers. And then there are the players who were taking steroids to heal quicker after injuries.
I also don’t know how much difference I see between taking steroids and getting laser eye surgery. Both are shortcuts, both are intended to confer a competitive advantage. I’ve never heard anyone complain that laser eye surgery was ruining the game.
I’m a huge baseball fan and recovering stat nerd, and, even so, I just can’t get worked up about steroids in baseball.
Villago Delenda Est
@patrick II:
Martha Stewart’s true crime, and this was obvious from the start, was supporting Democrats with campaign contributions.
Amanda in the South Bay
@FlipYrWhig:
I’m not so sure. To prove your point, you’d have to show that older players strike out more than younger players, i.e. they get out by whiffing rather than by making contact with the ball and then getting out.
Mark S.
@MattR:
I’ve heard Anderson mentioned before in this context, but I had never looked at his career stats before. One of these things in not like the others
@FlipYrWhig:
Guys who can hit home runs generally make a lot more than guys who can’t.
Joel
@Villago Delenda Est: Simpler than that. Two x chromosomes and a reputation.
Elia Isquire
the best way we can save money is to put partisanship aside and come together to undo every significant democratic achievement of the past 100 years
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
Steroids are just the way that physically deficient players even the playing field. Why should a guy who is born with the physical advantages to do well at some sports entitled to all the glory just because they got born with lucky DNA?
Now, y’all may commence throwing bricks at my head…
Suffern ACE
@Elia Isquire: You know, I’m not really liking these sentiments I’m having, but if something bad were to happen to those clowns- such as the capital dome collapsing – I wouldn’t shed a single tear.
Mart
Now we go after the Bond traders, right?
Brachiator
@Dennis SGMM:
I think there may be a different head of the IRS now. Commission Shulman has talked about going after bigger fish.
Not surprisingly, the GOP wants to cut IRS funding.
Lolis
Haha. Republicans got rolled:
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/13/cbo-budget-deal-cuts-less-than-1-percent/
Martin
@Brachiator: Why have an IRS if there’s no need for taxes?
chopper
@Dennis SGMM:
Bender: Now Wireless Joe Jackson, there was a blern-hitting machine!
Leela: Exactly! He was a machine designed to hit blerns! I mean, come on, Wireless Joe was nothing but a programmable bat on wheels.
Bender: Oh, and I suppose Pitchomat 5000 was just a modified howitzer?
Leela: Yep.
scav
How, simply how can any red-blooded patriotic ‘mercan be against innovation in baseball? ! Is this class warfare? Huh? Huh? McMegan’s grandpa had to bat uphill both ways without the benefit of these labor saving devices!
I’m off to be solidly +more, not that it will help.
Brachiator
OT (but I’m on my way out of the office)
A cool Civil War app:
WereBear
@Brachiator: I think that’s a great idea! An app that keeps giving.
Mark S.
@scav:
Shit, McMegan’s grandpa didn’t even have a bat. He just swung at the ball with his arm. Bats weren’t invented until 1962.
Things are much better now.
joes527
@Lolis: So, What happens if tomorrow the rank and file (tea party and their toadies) desert the leadership in big enough numbers to prevent the legislation from getting passed?
It sounds like there is a real possibility that he R’s aren’t going to be able to pass it w/o help from the D’s. I’d assume that the D’s aren’t going to be happy to backfill for grandstanding teahadists, but backfill they will. It would have to be a complete stampede fro the door to take it down to “doesn’t pass.” Probably beyond the realm of possibility.
But even a significant defection will make the Orange Man look pretty bad.
Brachiator
@Martin:
Yeah, that’s probably what the Tea Party People believe.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Brachiator: Do either of you have a good reliable source for what the distribution of taxes paid is by income bracket? Today’s speech was barely 30 minuts old and I had one my friends posting about how “Obama is going to raise taxes on top earners and they already pay 60% of the burden…”
Need some ammo. Thanks
Ruckus
@FlipYrWhig:
Laser eye surgery works even if you aren’t a ball player. It’s not an advantage as it only evens the field to get eyesight back to normal.
In case you haven’t figured it out I have had eye surgery and it has been the best thing I’ve ever done. Fifteen years now and it still is the same 20-20 which is far better than the 20-250 I had for over 40 years.
I worked in professional sports for several decades and our athletes got little in the way of help from steroids or blood enhancers but we were very aware of the effects of recreational drugs. Athletes lost their ability to participate up to permanently depending on the situation and times caught. They were mostly young 16-30 yrs and the temptations are strong. We did go so far as to eliminate an athlete from the days activity if they got IV saline/glucose(heat effects)because we didn’t like the visual of an athlete with a needle in their arm.
The point is that the governing body has to be serious about enforcement for this to work at all. In stick and ball sports that means the owners/league. In other types of sports it probably is the governing body who is most likely responsible.
WereBear
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: Here’s an eye opening graph:
http://visualizingeconomics.com/2008/03/30/top-400-taxpayers-income-and-taxes-paid-1992-2005/
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@FlipYrWhig:
not to get pedantic, but what the fuck, this, is
spartaballoon juice.anyway mario mendoza, THAT mario mendoza was a solid hitting line drive machine as a prospect. then one day they noticed he was near sighted and fit him for glasses. instead of a big fuzzy basketball, he was seeing asparin, the rest is well documented.
i don’t know if laser surgery would automatically help a lot of players who have adjusted to their eyesight. though mendoza’s results may be atypical.
MattR
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: I think one of the front pagers linked to this compilation of charts from Mother Jones a while back.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
Thanks guys – will check them out. Cheers.
MattR
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: Unfortunately, I went back and reviewed the charts on the Mother Jones page and none of them deal with taxes. But they are quite good to show the wealth distibution in this country and how the rich have gotten richer over the past 30 years or so.
Martin
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: Why? Taxes are proportionate to income. If they don’t like paying all those taxes, they can either earn less or pay the rest of us more. Either way, problem solved!
patrick II
@MattR:
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
It is perhaps to obvious to state, but the reason the rich are paying a high percentage of the country’s total taxes is that the rich are accumulating a higher percentage of the country’s wealth. The tax rates for the rich have been going down steadily for thirty years, but the percent paid of the country’s total taxes has gone up anyhow — simply because even a lower rate on the immense wealth accumulation that has happened in the last thirty years results in higher total taxes paid.
Bottom line: conservative like to mislead by confusing a person’s tax total with his tax rate.
PaulW
I’d rather the liars be locked up with the murderers. They all murder something or someone.
It was worth the obstruction count on Bonds. It may not stop the cheating or steroid use but it will make players think twice that they could get away with it.
FlipYrWhig
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: @Ruckus: While we’re on the subject, what about when pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery throwing better than they did before? What if a pitcher decided to get TJ surgery in the hopes of improving his performance rather than as treatment for an injury? Would that be cheating in the same way that taking steroids is, or would it be worse, or would it be different? (Ugh, I hate sounding like an Intro To Ethics class, but I’m interested in why steroids feels more cheating-like than other methods of artificially enhancing performance.)
Admiral_Komack
Next up: Roger Clemens.
Let the excuses begin!
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Martin: The further argument that is made by my friend is that the bottom x % pay no taxes as all because their effective tax rate is low and tax credits wipe out even a nominal payment of taxes.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@patrick II: Agree with this point.
sukabi
@patrick II: they also like to cite the tax percentage rate associated with the tax bracket, without noting that the uber-wealthy have numerous ways to reduce their income thru tax shelters, loopholes, dodges, ect. before they calculate their tax, that the rest of us don’t have access to… and that effectively reduces the amount of $$ that they pay taxes on… which translates into a significantly lower “rate” than the official one that’s “too high”…
this is how corporations like GE, with $14 billion in PROFITS can pay 0 federal income tax… sooooo, how’s that 33% of $14 Billion?
patrick II
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
The percentage of income taken by lower paid workers includes regressive taxes fica, medicare, and local sales taxes. Even the lower wage earners generally pay a higher percentage of their income to taxes than the richest.
But additionally, and more importantly, working people’s wages have been suppressed by law and by power politics stopping unionization and increasing competition with cheap foreign labor. The GDP of this country has doubled in the last 30 years. Working wages have stagnated. All of that wealth has gone to the top few wealthiest, and they spend at least some of it bribing politicians to keep their tax rates low.
Ruckus
@FlipYrWhig:
Tough call. But to make you better there would have to be some issue to correct so that’s not the same as steroids. I’d say that’s like laser surgery, you can be born with bad eyesight and be corrected with glasses or laser surgery. That for sure would improve your performance but you would have been considered to have a dysfunction in the first place. You could work around it, eyeglasses, wrapping the shoulder, ice and learning to live with pain but it would be a correctable issue. Steroids and blood doping add to and make the body better than it could be on it’s own.
Ruckus
@FlipYrWhig:
Another point. Having “unnecessary” surgery may not work and may make any situation worse, up to and including death! So that’s pretty risky stuff. And they are out of action and have to retrain. And steroids can be pretty risky long term.
Have you ever known a retired NFL player? I have and they sound at 40-45 yrs old like a pretty beat up old men. Knees, hips, possibly shoulders
readyneeding or demanding replacement. And the steroids may have exacerbated that along with the other health issues. I need those joint replacements but I’m an old fart and hate, white hot hate, surgery so I’ll get along without if at all possible. I was on steroids for 3 days once for some illness and hated every minute. I told the doc that I’d rather die than be on steroids. It was an extremely unpleasant experience.Tehanu
@FlipYrWhig:
Me neither. I agree, kids should be discouraged from doing them, and lying to a grand jury should be prosecuted. But one thing nobody seems to mention is that lots of guys besides Bonds, McGwire, and the other big names were doing steroids at the same time … and most of them didn’t set records or become big stars. The ones who did were facing pitchers who were just as juiced as they were. So I’m not at all sure that doing steroids made all that much difference. And as Ruckus points out, the MLB organization and the owners took their own sweet time dealing with it, and probably still wouldn’t have if they hadn’t been pressured into it. I blame them much more than I blame any of the players. (That said, Barry Bonds is a jerk.)
Brachiator
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: I am going to be hip deep in reviewing tax returns for the next few days, so unfortunately I do not have time to reply fully. I suggest you google search “United States tax burden,” and search for articles, books and YouTube videos featuring former NY Times reporter David Cay Johnston, who has written clear and accessible stuff on these issues.
Also, when you look at total taxes, income, payroll, and sales taxes, lower income groups get walloped. Also, you have to be careful about some data. Some rich people who under report income might be included with the poor. So, to really dig in you have to look at wages, disposable income and other measures of wealth.
Dollared
Gang, Bonds was the Greatest Player that Ever Lived. Sorry that ‘roids were involved, but he was. Before the ‘roids, he was the best 5 tool player in baseball and by a lot, he was the best late inning clutch hitter. After the ‘roids, well, he was by far – by far – the best juiced player ever.
As for his attitude (which sucks), you really have to know more about his father, who in the early ’70s was the most talented player in baseball, and was shipped from team to team to team because he didn’t stepnfetch the way they liked back then. He came by his attitude honestly. And after today, well, can you blame him if he still has a leetle attitude problem? How much has Mark McGuire had to spend on attorneys? Quite a bit less, wouldn’t you say?
Kathy in St. Louis
John, you may be correct about the cost, but I’ve got to say that it certainly doesn’t break my heart that this wanker had to spend a lot of cash to defend himself. I wish that all the guys, including Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa,both of whom I adored before I knew what they were up to, had to spend their hard earned cash doing the same. At least, Sosa and McGuire played the humble game. Bonds just beefed up, pretended that everyone was lying about him and set new “records” that will forever be questioned within the game.
It wouldn’t have hurt if a couple of owners and managers, who had to be able to see how these guys suddenly beefed up, were also questioned before juries. But the almighty dollar is always the real winner in baseball.
Paul in KY
@Maude: IMO, only a fool would bank at Bank of America. Glad you are leaving those thieves.
MBunge
@Dollared: Gang, Bonds was the Greatest Player that Ever Lived.
Which makes his offense even worse. It used to be, at least in theory, that someone who was special was considered to have greater responsibilities because of that status. If you were richer or smarter or more talented than the average joe, you had an even higher duty to follow the rules and do the right thing simply BECAUSE you had greater opportunity or capacity to do so.
Now, being special or exceptional is considered to be a license to do whatever the hell you want and have that behavior excused by your specialness.
Mike