There have been a lot of arguments on this blog and elsewhere about whether or not Obama was doing enough for the gay community and so on. As an Obot, I always felt the criticism of Obama on these issues was overblown. At the same time, I think that nearly all of the progress made on gay rights has happened because the gay community fights like hell and puts its money where its mouth is. Repealing DADT was the right thing to do, but it didn’t represent a big gamble, because it’s good politics too: Obama will raise a lot of money in 2012 because of it.
President Barack Obama’s reelection campaign is banking on gay donors to make up the cash it’s losing from other groups of wealthy supporters who have been alienated and disappointed by elements of Obama’s first term.
Pleased by an all-out White House push to repeal “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” gay donors have surprised campaign officials with the extent of their support. And the campaign’s new fundraising apparatus appears designed to capitalize on their enthusiasm: Obama’s finance committee included one gay man in 2008; there are 15 this year, a source said.
[….]“It’s ironic – a year ago there was no constituency more unhappy. There was a sea change,” said David Mixner, a veteran New York gay activist, who said that White House actions during the past year had swayed restive gay donors. “You not only will see a united community that will contribute to Obama, but they will work their asses off.”
Campaign donations from the gay community are more important proportionally in New York than in most other states, which makes me wonder (a) why Republicans in New York State continue to oppose marriage equality and (b) why Democrats don’t push the issue harder. The politics work even better here, since the so-called “cultural conservatives” in this state are often Catholic, and Catholics are fairly supportive of gay rights. I’m sure Chris Matthews has a crazy cousin who devotes her life to opposing gay and reproductive rights (I have one myself), but those people vote Republican anyway and they aren’t big donors.
A lot of politics in this country is trapped in some Peggy Noonan view of the world, where the Reagan Republicans will ride again the moment that Democrats do anything to help anyone who isn’t white or straight. That’s bullshit, those days are gone.
In the 2012 election, I wish a motherfucker would try to start a “culture war”.
GregB
Once David Brooks convinces gays as to the seriousness of Mitch Daniels, it’ll be curtains for Obama.
williamc
DougJ, I don’t think you need to egg the Repubs on to pick a fight on the worse ground possible. They will go there anyway, because they believe they have THE MATH to make it work.
Joe Beese
Proving that the gay community is no smarter than any other supporter of the Democrats.
“Although President Barack Obama signed the legislation in December, training and certification must be complete before the repeal before the ban is lifted.
As a result, gay rights of those in service remain restricted under the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy.
Just this week, a lesbian cadet who resigned from West Point has been rejected for readmission to the academy because of her sexuality.
Officials at the U.S. Military Academy said they had no choice but to reject Katherine Miller’s application, because the repeal of the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy barring gays from serving openly in the military is not in effect yet.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1381653/Marines-trained-accepting-gay-recruits-military-prepares-end-17-year-old-dont-ask-dont-tell-policy.html#ixzz1LrpW5LvX
Mnemosyne
@Joe Beese:
Wait, you mean that four giant bureaucracies have not yet fully implemented a policy that they’ve had pretty much since the country was formed? It’s actually taking them a few months to get everything ready?
Clearly this is just more proof that Obama is the worst president for gay rights EVER!
BGinCHI
Doug, they have to start culture wars to even have the ghost of a chance in 2012. Without that red meat folks will remember the Ryan budget and the fact that the House has not passed a single bill that would create jobs.
Wrecking culture is all they gots!
Villago Delenda Est
I think this would be a good place to point out that Ralph Nader’s position on gay rights is that they’re a sideshow, unimportant in respect to the REAL issues.
Doug Harlan J
@BGinCHI:
I think they should run on the economy and nothing else. The economy will likely still be bad in 2012.
Villago Delenda Est
@Doug Harlan J:
Problem is, their short term record is all about culture wars, not the economy. Their “laser like” focus on jobs seems to have been misdirected onto wombs.
Jim C.
This blog item needs more pictures of Big Gay Al from South Park.
Culture of Truth
I thought the word ‘restive’ was banned.
Zifnab
@Joe Beese:
Man, Joe. It seems like there are a whole lot of dumb people out there. You’re really an intellectual candle in a sea of dark stupidity.
If only we could all see with your clarity and vision and listen to your every word as gospel, I imagine the world would be a brighter, happier, friendlier place.
Thank you for contributing your time and energy day after day, as you attempt to spread your candle of knowledge throughout our poor, debased, Obama-loving community. Maybe one day you’ll catch fire, and we can all join hands in enlightenment together.
piratedan
yo Douggie, wake the fuck up…. there’s a culture war going on as we speak, it’s called the war against Women. All you have to do is pay attention. Jobs, Jobs, Jobs transitioned effortlessly into “we’re in you’re uturi, making your decisions for you” and “the only planned parenthood going on around here is determining which one of you is gonna get raped”. There’s also a class war ongoing, it’s the rich against everybody else, bring your own goons or go home. In case that wasn’t enough, there’s also a political war going on, that lil’ thingy goin down at the state level against unions, that the Right have studiously noted are the primary donors of cash to anyone that opposes them. Fancy that they can learn who gives to liberals and work out legislation to cut them off at the knees but they can’t read a fucking pie chart to understand that any state budget requires revenue in order to work.
Is Obama the Gay savior? no, he’s not, but he sure as hell isn’t actively working against them like Senator McGrumpypants would have.
Bob Loblaw
Wait, how many are on this committee?
1. Because most social conservatives continue to find human sexuality in general uncomfortable at best, and downright terrifying at worst.
2. Because homosexuality is just the ickiest kind of sexuality short of bestiality or pedophilia, doncha know?
3. Seriously, you don’t want gays in the schools, teaching our kids? Do you? DO YOU? CHILD MOLESTERS!
4. Because even the non-bigots at heart in the GOP follow a careful strategy of making people feel as shitty and hopeless about their lives as possible, thus making them reluctant converts to the politics of material self-interest and fear, or taking them out of the electoral process entirely. The entire purpose of the GOP is to drive every last wedge into society they can find.
Your schtick is terrible and I suggest you change it.
Zifnab
@Doug Harlan J:
Republicans love coming up with some tax-cutting government-crippling rich guy ejaculate, or some culture-warrior bullshit bill and slapping the phrase “Jobs Legislation” over the top of it.
Their anti-health care bill was the “End the Job Killing Health Care Act”. Their deficit hawkery inevitably boils down to “Only a balanced budget will produce more jobs!” Their tax cut harping revolves around the “Tax cuts improve business revenue that creates jobs” myth.
The Republicans will be running on the economy in 2012. They’ll stick the word “Jobs” after every policy they champion and “Jobs killing” before every policy they oppose. But they’ll be running on the exact same anti-tax, pro-corporate, Jesus-baiting platform they’ve been using since Reagen.
You’re going to need to engage them on all fronts. It’s a big country. We’ve got lots of people to handle this. There’s no reason we need to engage in a laser-like campaign focus on anything, and risk neglecting any core constituency in the process.
eric
@Joe Beese: and you want to know why pragmatic liberals/progressives/leftists can’t stand people like you…..because you can never give due because you are afraid you will be the dupe. by pointing to the errors, you can stand in judgment without being a duped sheep. Of course, it would be preferable if the cadet was not barred from re-admission, but that does not mean that the policy move was not incredible valuable from national security and human rights persepctive. But you cant admit that because then you will have sided with someone that has betrayed true progressive ideals in another way.
I get that Obama is not perfect. I still fume over Clinton’s welfare “reform.” But that does not mean that I cannot praise Obama for the actions i like (even if not perfect).
jwb
@Doug Harlan J: The Goopers made running on the economy much more difficult by winning the House in 2010 and allowing the Ryan plan to go forward. They would be in much better shape in 2012 had the Dems maintained control of the House.
BGinCHI
@Doug Harlan J: They can’t.
Their economic plan is like a card trick: it looks cool until you realize that it’s not real.
They are truly the Party of Sophistry.
The Ancient Randonneur
Golly, I sure hope you’re right.
Onihanzo
But..but…it’s been scientiferically proven that we are a Conservative nation, dontcha know? I mean, printing it in Newsweek is like lasering it onto the hearts of every American.
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/10/17/it-s-not-easy-bein-blue.html
Chris
News alert: Newt Gingrich to announce he’s running for president (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/apnewsbreak-spokesman-says-gingrich-to-announce-presidential-bid-wed-on-facebook-twitter/2011/05/09/AF2fJTYG_story.html?wpisrc=al_national).
Steeplejack
Doug Harlan J:
Words to live by. I love that Cedric bit. Here he carries it over into horse racing. (NSFW)
Doug Harlan J
@Bob Loblaw:
None of those four reasons speaks to any actual political reality.
jrg
You say that as if they have not been used for the past 40+ years to get the gibbering, drooling fucktards in “real America” out to the polls.
No thanks. I’d rather the panty sniffers have a bag of cheetos and a heaping pile of STFU.
BR
OT: I’m waiting for the Greenwald groupies to defend his recent tweets.
Hal
I always thought that the reaction from some in the gay community was too white hot to last. If you go from 0 to OMG!OBAMA IS A TOTAL HOMOPHOBE AND HATES GAYS, then you end up burning out very quickly.
cmorenc
@Doug Harlan J:
You may be about to get your wish: Newt Gingrich has apparently decided to enter the GOP race, and so it’s no longer simply up to the more obscure ass-clowns in the race to ramp up the culture wars to cultivate the Teahadists. However, Newt may be more inclined to push and emphasize hot buttons other than gay rights, but his efforts will pressure others into ramping up the rhetoric, and do I recall correctly that Newt has previously spoken out against repeal of DADT?
Doug Harlan J
@Doug Harlan J:
Also too, for someone who was accusing people of sounding like MoDo last night, Bob…..
Sammi
The FL GOP-controlled legislature passed an elections bill that, among other things, restricts voter-registration efforts. Today, the League of Women Voters announced that it will stop voter registration drives.
Joe Beese
@BR:
You mean the one where he commits the heresy of suggesting that the American President might ever be subjected to the same justice [or lack thereof] as some lesser being?
Chris
@cmorenc:
Weren’t social conservatism, “values” platforms and the Christian Coalition central to Gingrich’s rule as Speaker of the House? It was my understanding that the alliance formed in the Reagan years but didn’t go all out until the 1990s with his revolution.
So yeah, guy’s bringing a lot of culture war baggage to the table.
Holden Pattern
@Mnemosyne:
The British military did it in a few weeks. I guess the pommies just don’t hate fags as much as we do. Not surprising, given the way they talk, all faggy like that.
American exceptionalism is now basically defined by what we can’t do as well as anyone else in the western world, even while we chant USA! USA! USA!
FlipYrWhig
@BR: How upset do you think he’d be if it turned out Bradley Manning was gung-ho in favor of executing bin Laden?
Martin
@Bob Loblaw:
I don’t know specifics about this year, but finance committees are pretty big. Basically you want someone there that represents both regional and demographic interests to make sure that you aren’t leaving money on the table. These are basically all of the ‘bundlers’. His 2008 committee had 281 members. The 2012 committee will likely be larger.
And it’s complete bullshit that only one member was gay in 2008. Maybe only one was willing to have (D-Homo) put after their name on the list or something, but 281 big money Democratic fundraisers is going to have a solid streak of gay running through it. You couldn’t get a group of 281 Dems down to one gay person even if that was your goal.
Mnemosyne
@Joe Beese:
I see Greenwald has the same difficulty distinguishing between a head of state and the head of a criminal organization that El Tiburon was having here the other day.
Unless Glenn is now arguing that John Gotti should have gotten diplomatic immunity from his criminal actions because he ran a multi-state enterprise, I’m not really seeing his argument that killing a crime lord is the same thing as killing a head of state.
Bob Loblaw
@Doug Harlan J:
Aw, did somebody get offended that I made fun of your irrepressible whiteness? Surely there’s some killer Richard Pryor bit you can use to strike back?
What happens when you get your wish, and a motherfucker starts something? Are you gonna put a cap in his ass, DougJ? Why, you’re sounding positively glibertarian right now with your political tough guy act.
Mnemosyne
@Holden Pattern:
The British have 195,900 regular military and 222,300 regular reserves. The United States has 1,445,000 regular military and 833,616 reserves. That means that the entire British armed forces number less than half of the US reserves alone.
So, clearly the answer is that Obama hates gays. You sure got me there.
Malron aka eclecticbrotha
So now rich gay men are Obama’s base? Seriously?
MAJeff
Come to Minnesota.
Holden Pattern
@Mnemosyne:
How, exactly, does the total number of military personnel change implementation of a policy which is to be UNIFORM as a matter of military regulation? Change the rules, enforce the new rules, you’re done. Also, the military is hierarchical, so we have proportionally as many officers to conduct the trainings after they’re trained. Maybe go easy on people for the first few months after the rule is changed until the training takes hold. Because remember, all you have to do here is STOP CASHIERING GAY PEOPLE. You just *stop*.
OMG! The United States has more people than Great Britain. I’m sure it will take longer for laws to be the law here! Wha? We certainly are exceptional, just not in the direction that everyone thinks.
Note that I didn’t say that Obama hates gay people (though I think he won’t be taking any political risks on their behalf — much like every other group in the Democratic base who don’t have anywhere else to go). What I did was point out how ridiculous it is to defend Obama based on the foot-dragging enabled by the legislation.
Pangloss
The GOP has tried to work economic arguments the same way they work culture wars– lies, obfuscation, researched messaging, and collusion with 527s, talk radio, and Fox News. Not as effective on social media, but they’re trying to mimic the Democrats with some deep pockets.
It will all come down to whether people blame Obama for the majority of the weak economy or think he’s improved it. Unless he starts getting some better news and getting it reported right, the former has a chance to prevail. If that happens, we’re likely to have Republicans in charge of all arms of government, because they’re going to win the Senate.
Glenn
I’m not sure I understand the hostility here to Joe Beese’s suggestion that we wait to give Obama full props for repealing DADT until, you know, DADT is actually repealed.
Mike in NC
OMG! Concern trolls at Politico are concerned!
Mnemosyne
@Holden Pattern:
I see you’ve never worked for an organization that employed more than 3 people. Clearly, there’s no point in even discussing the matter with someone who has no clue why a large bureaucracy might take longer to implement a policy change than a small one.
Mnemosyne
@Glenn:
Joe Beese thinks it’s all a head-fake to get donations from gay Democrats and Obama will be announce in 2012 that DADT is being re-implemented. So you may not want to tie yourself to his paranoia.
JAHILL10
@Glenn: The law has been repealed. The story linked to is about the implementation of the repeal. I don’t see your point or Beese’s. Is the implication that suddenly the administration is going to do an about face and stop the implementation of the new policy? If so, what is your evidence for that?
I think some folks are just sorry to see another anti-Obama hobby horse riding off into the sunset.
boss bitch
@Glenn:
the bill was f-ing signed by Obama. What? do you think Obama just did a head fake and is going to sabotage the whole process? for what? its one thing to doubt campaign rhetoric, but to doubt AFTER the bill is signed is f-ing ridiculous. what’s the next goal post? will beese withold until he sees what happens in Obama’s second term?
Glenn
@Mnemosyne:
Well, I don’t read Joe’s mind as well as you do, I guess. I don’t think Obama was anything but sincere in the DADT repeal legislation. But the fact remains, it has NOT yet been repealed, and I thus I think the congratulations are a bit premature. I mean, the military bureaucracy that you rightly note could strongly resist the final implementation, and it’s not clear to me Obama would be willing to buck that. I remain hopeful and even optimistic that it will be repealed shortly. But I think we’ve all seen the football pulled away enough times (and I don’t mean on gay issues necessarily) that I think holding off our celebrations until the deed is done is not a crazy position to take.
WereBear
@Sammi: I’ve concluded that the main thing wrong with Florida is that there’s anyone under the age of 65 there.
Make it into Senior Camp, ship the young people North, and let the Social Experiment begin!
Glenn
@JAHILL10: No, actually, the law has not been repealed. The legislation specifically provides that the DADT statute remains in effect until the President, SecDef and JCS Chairman certify it’s ready to be implemented.
Joe Beese
@Mnemosyne:
It has yet to be un-implemented.
And now that Obama, having exercised at least the minimum effort that could be expected from someone who campaigned on this, is greedily helping himself to another withdrawal from the GayTM, he can shrug off the years-long delay we can expect in implementation.
Glenn
Look, I am generally a fan of Obama (though not as much as I used to be). Still, I just think that a lot could go wrong before DADT is actually repealed, even if Obama is as genuinely sincere about wanting to end it as I believe him to be.
For example, what if the Republicans threaten a filibuster and Panetta can’t get confirmed as the new SecDef unless he commits not to sign the certification? Or to delay it? I mean, that’s not a ludicrous possibility, is it? When it’s done, I’ll be happy. Until then, I am merely hopeful.
JAHILL10
@Glenn: So again, it looks to me like the administration is on step two of this implementation of this policy (below). You didn’t answer my question as to what is your evidence that this is NOT going to happen. Take your time…
“On January 28, 2011, the Pentagon rolled out a more definitive plan for implementation of the integration of openly LGB military personnel. It calls for a three-month period of training, to begin in Q3 2011, for all personnel, describing three mandatory levels of training for troops, commanders, administrators, recruiters and others:
The first level of training involves requiring administrators and other leaders to answer detailed questions about the new policy.
The second level requires senior officers to enforce the policy and observe for any feelings of unease among servicemembers.
The third level consists of the general training of all troops, which is expected to be the most difficult portion due to the wide geographic distribution of troops.
After the training period is completed, the president and his military advisors must sign to a certification which confirms the ability of the military to accept the integration of openly-LGBT personnel. Sixty days after the certification is signed, the DADT Repeal Act will take effect as law.”
Mnemosyne
@Glenn:
Except that they aren’t resisting it. It’s going very well. Even the head of the Marine Corps, who was very much against the repeal, has admitted that the training is going much more smoothly than he expected.
By all accounts, the military will tell the president that he can issue his 60-day order by mid-June. But even that isn’t going to be enough for Beese, because his hatred of Obama is more important to him than anyone’s rights, even his own.
reflectionephemeral
The crazy thing is… even Noonan once wrote something about how things aren’t like that. (Tho I do agree with the Krugman/Josh Marshall view that most big media commentators came of age in an era of GOP dominance, and think of it as the default, proper state). Anyway, from Noonan’s finest hour:
Glenn
@JAHILL10: I believe I have made it clear that I don’t think Obama is going to deliberately try to stop the implementation. My concern is resistance from the military and/or republicans that might stop it from happening.
Again, my only point is, when it’s actually repealed, then awesome… until then, there’s work to be done and pressure to keep up. I don’t understand the resistance to that position, really.
Mnemosyne
@Joe Beese:
Or, you know, this June:
Whatevs, right? Six weeks from now, never, those are exactly the same thing as far as you’re concerned. Because you don’t really care about the repeal, you care about having a club to use against Obama. Weren’t you one of the people whining about how meeeaaannn Obama was to kill Osama bin Laden?
Tonybrown74
@Joe Beese:
Oh, fer fuck’s sake, REALLY???
I swear, in the name of all that is evil and unholy, you guys truly believe President = King. And since King Barry didn’t snap his fingers and make it so, he truly hates the Gays!
That whole Constitutional Republic, Congress, Rule of Law is just a big old side show to you!
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne:
Because the vast majority of the troops are young folk. And they’ve been getting used to the idea of gay = normal pretty much all their lives. In fact I bet they think the whole damn training is a big joke cause they could give a flying fig where their squadmate sticks his dick/her cootch. The folks who really needed re-training are the older officer corps. And even that is debatable.
Doug Harlan J
@Bob Loblaw:
This may be the stupidest thing you’ve ever written.
KRK
@Mike in NC:
Exactly.
Yutsano
@Doug Harlan J: Give him time and enough
ropeblog space. Bob is always going for new levels of dickheadishness.Lawnguylander
@Mike in NC:
Maybe they’re concern trolling but they might still be right in this case. There was a post here in April on 2010 House exit polls that showed voters with incomes above $200K going for Republicans over Democrats 64% to 34%. In 2008 Obama actually got 52% of that same demographic while House Dems only lost it 48% to 51%. Apart from what they’ve discovered as they go about fundraising for 2012, there’s evidently good reason for Obama’s re-election people to be looking to make up for loss of support from the wealthy. Or, they could get Joe Beese to explain to them why they’re stupid to perceive that the Obama administration is not their best friend in the world. Sadly, it’s too late for the 2010 election.
Mnemosyne
@Glenn:
You’re probably right that the Republicans will do anything they can to stop the implementation, but there’s pretty much zero resistance from the military. In fact, the military would probably be pissed off if the repeal was canceled since they’ve already put time and money into retraining.
When you have the head of the Marine Corps telling the Republican-controlled House Armed Forces Committee that the retraining is going much better than he expected and he thinks implementation will go smoothly, I don’t think you have to worry about the military resisting the change.
Joe Beese
@Mnemosyne:
How many Friedman Units is that?
ChrisNYC
Democrats are pushing marriage equality in NY. There’s the regular campaign stuff (calls, etc) and the prime Dem constituencies are on board with resources. Time frame is short but there is a significant push.
aimai
@Glenn:
No one ever went broke underestimating the crazy of the right wing but the scenario you offer presumes that the Republicans want to reinstitute DODT. They don’t. Anymore than they actually want to bring an end to the deficit or put down their real markers about destroying Medicare. As long as they make a gesture to their crazy base and explain that they *can’t do anything* until they get back into power totally they will be satisfied. So, no, they won’t hold up the SecDef until they get their way on DADT. They’ll whine to their base that Obama is destroying the military. But since they also have to attack the military the more satisfied the military seems to be with Obama’s leadership (viz: refusing to vote a commendation to Seal Team Six for procedural reasons) they will lose votes that are pro-military even as they shore up votes that are anti gay.
aimai
Yutsano
@aimai:
Hell I usually don’t get into all that cheerleading bullcrap and that unforced error still made me gag. Heckuva job there AOS. And where’s your fucking jobs bill? I’m still waiting asshole.
(just for clarity’s sake, the AOS is the asshole, not you aimai. I lurves you. :)
Mnemosyne
@Joe Beese:
About as many as there were to the successful repeal vote, which was signed into law on Dec. 22, 2010. I seem to recall you assured us that the law would never, ever be repealed, and even if it was, Obama would never, ever sign it. So you’re 0 for 2 on this so far.
You should probably get some help moving those goalposts. You’ll throw your back out.
Roger Moore
@aimai:
But they will make a show of doing so, just as they’ll make a show of refusing to raise the debt ceiling. It’s much, much easier to talk about how much you want to do these impossible or stupid things when you know your opponents will bail you out by refusing to let them pass.
Bethanyanne
It’s not SecDef they want to trade for DADT, it’s the debt ceiling. tpm.ly/jAX5uq
Joe Beese
@Mnemosyne:
If you can link to a single instance of my saying that Obama would not sign the bill, I will quit Balloon Juice forevermore. Worth playing for?
If you can not link to a single such instance, let it be noted that you are full of shit.
Will Reks
I can’t speak for the other branches but the Army seems to be progressing fairly well implementing DADT repeal. Most officers I know have had at least one level of training.
OzoneR
@Glenn:
It is repealed, it just hasn’t been implemented yet
gex
Big Religion has much stronger advocates and much deeper pockets. And people who don’t pay attention to the actual merits of the arguments find Big Religion’s arguments to feel right. Protecting marriage sounds awesome. Being pro-life is awesome.
And there’s more of them than gays.
And they make money by riling up homophobes. Tax-free money.
gex
Oh, BTW. Minnesota is in full on culture war over me. I hope you’re enjoying it Doug, because I sure as hell am not.
No Jesus, No Peace.
ABL
I sure hope Aravosis doesn’t read this. I fear for his exploding head.
Mnemosyne
@Joe Beese:
Sure, I’ll play for that. I can’t do it now, because I’m at work, but I’ll find it tonight when I get home. See you then.
DPirate
Yay! Obama is going to let homosexuals kill people for him while reserving the right to have them assassinated. HURRAY!
Mnemosyne
Well, whaddaya know — Beese was right. It was Oscar Leroy who brought the “he’s not going to sign!” paranoia. So, Joe, I apologize for being wrong.
I did find many extremely fascinating things while Googling, though. Anyone think Joe will extend the same apology for being wrong to our gracious host?
Oh, and this was genius, too, from the same thread:
So, even though I was wrong, I did get to have hours of amusement watching Joe make a fool of himself all over again:
Thank you, Joe. I needed those laughs today.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: No…but I think I can predict you being called a psychopath. Or some other hideous epitaph for daring to prove the infallible Joe Beese wrong.
And I have to say you were quite gracious here. I get the strange feeling he won’t extend the same courtesy.