From the American Forces Press Service — the news service of the United States Department of Defense:
Obama: Americans No Longer Have To Lie To Serve
Just a reminder — or really two. First, to steal a phrase. It does get better.
It gets worse too, sometimes, and at times like these it can seem as if that’s the only direction possible. But not so.
And for those who think our President exists only to get rolled, let today’s new reality remind us that it ain’t necessarily so.
Full text of the DOD article comes beyond the jump.
President Barack Obama today issued a statement on the repeal of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” law that had barred gay men and lesbians from serving openly in the military.
The repeal took effect at midnight.
Here is the president’s statement:
Today, the discriminatory law known as ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ is finally and formally repealed. As of today, patriotic Americans in uniform will no longer have to lie about who they are in order to serve the country they love. As of today, our armed forces will no longer lose the extraordinary skills and combat experience of so many gay and lesbian service members. And today, as Commander in Chief, I want those who were discharged under this law to know that your country deeply values your service.
I was proud to sign the Repeal Act into law last December because I knew that it would enhance our national security, increase our military readiness, and bring us closer to the principles of equality and fairness that define us as Americans. Today’s achievement is a tribute to all the patriots who fought and marched for change; to Members of Congress, from both parties, who voted for repeal; to our civilian and military leaders who ensured a smooth transition; and to the professionalism of our men and women in uniform who showed that they were ready to move forward together, as one team, to meet the missions we ask of them.
For more than two centuries, we have worked to extend America’s promise to all our citizens. Our armed forces have been both a mirror and a catalyst of that progress, and our troops, including gays and lesbians, have given their lives to defend the freedoms and liberties that we cherish as Americans. Today, every American can be proud that we have taken another great step toward keeping our military the finest in the world and toward fulfilling our nation’s founding ideals.
Image: Nicolas Tournier, The Guardroom, before 1650.
Mike Goetz
“And for those who think our President exists only to get rolled, let today’s new reality remind us that it ain’t necessarily so.”
No it ain’t, and that has always been a stupid caricature.
Tom levenson
Fywp messed up formatting and I seem to have dropped the line where I mentioned that the full text of the DOD piece followed past the jump. Will fix when I get to a better input device than my phone.
Edit: now fixt, I hope.
schrodinger's cat
But he is the same as Bush, just as Al Gore was.
-Naderite from 2000 and 2011
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Just Words!
schlemizel - was Alwhite
When I worked at Kennedy Space Center (~1995) we had a neighbor whos husband was in the Navy & out to sea at the time she moved in. She expected to be on her own about 4 months but a few weeks later he returned from duty and was a civilian looking for work.
Turns out he was discharged because he was unable to take orders from a female officer.
While the end of DADT is a very good thing don’t think for a minute that this, and much, much, worse awaits the brave men & women that will step out of the shadows today. This is only the beginning of the story, which I am sure stretches back to the first time we allowed the Irish to serve and allowed integrated units. The forces of darkness never give up easily.
mantis
I popped in at Americablog to see what Aravosis had to say about it, and what do you know, he insists on being a total shithead, as usual. DADT is repealed, and he gives all credit to himself and his asshole friends who almost prevented the whole thing with their assholery, while bashing the president for doing it the right way, which of course he disagrees with. Anything less than the magic wand presidency is an absolute betrayal. I can’t even be bothered to see what the shitheads at FDL think.
We deserve to lose, because our own side wants it to happen. It’s a great day for equality, and all I can think is that I’m sick to death with the left.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
This is a big fucking deal.
/Biden
I’m not joking, either. Military service is the wedge that opens other doors; c.f. the role that the return of black veterans from WW1 and WW2 and Korea played in helping to drive the civil rights movement during the 50s and 60s. The homophobic bigots have been fighting tooth and nail to prevent this day from happening for very sound tactical reasons, and now they’ve lost. This is a clear win for all Americans, whether they know it or not.
Tom Hilton
Whatever else happens today, this is a good day.
amk
Sooo, did dan choi find any newer fence y’day ? Gawd, what an a$$hole.
Gilles de Rais
No.
Today’s the end of a process that’s been going on for 20-plus years, and yes there are people who are screaming bloody murder about it (not a one of them active duty military, if you pay close attention) but this is not the beginning of the process of integration of gay folk, but rather the end.
I returned just last month from deployment overseas. At the moment, nobody in the armed forces gives a shit if you’re black or purple or gay or whatever you may happen to be, they’ve got their plate full with a lot more pressing issues than those.
Brian S
I think I’m going to head out, take photos with my phone of utterly normal situations, and post them to twitter with the hashtag #dadtpocalypse, unless someone has a better idea. For a hashtag, I mean.
Villago Delenda Est
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Yup, you’re right, and the fight on DADT was so hard precisely because of the parallel with civil rights for African-Americans.
The homophobes used some of the same arguments, almost word for word, that the segregationists used.
The military prides itself on its professionalism. Right now, the Army can point to this as an example of it.
AkaDad
People who serve can still lie about other things. Obama just doesn’t get it.
El Cid
This is a huge achievement, and although it was an entire movement and not just a political leader, it didn’t and couldn’t happen without one, and this new “Civil” [obviously not civilian] Rights Act was pushed through by the President.
Larime the Gimp
@mantis: I know, right? Because if he would’ve just waved his magic wand and given instant payoff, President Perry would NEVER come in and undo it with a wave of his own magic wand.
Tomjones
I wonder how many people celebrating the repeal of DADT today will cry and gnash teeth about the temporary extension of the Bush tax cuts, that made repeal possible, tomorrow.
Tomjones
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: This. Just imagine what an openly gay/lesbian Medal or Honor winner will do for public opinion. Or the first openly coffin containing an openly gay/lesbian servicemeber returning to Dover…
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
To celebrate this great day in American history, I’m not going to spoof on the asshats who said the world would end if this happened or it shouldn’t happen unless it happened exactly the way they thought it should.*
@Brian S: Perfect. Just perfect.
*Maybe later.
Tomjones
@Larime the Gimp: Oh man, please don’t make me have to visualize Perry’s magic wand.
Linda Featheringill
Doing things the right way, the permanent way, sure takes a long time doesn’t it. Geez!
But aside from my impatience, hooray for everybody. It is a big deal.
Linnaeus
@Tomjones:
I guess it depends on how one defines crying and gnashing of teeth. It’s possible, for example, to recognize the larger deal that made this repeal possible and at the same time decide that extension of Bush tax cuts is not a good policy and should be reversed at the best opportunity to do so.
Roger Moore
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
It wasn’t just black vets, either. Take a look at how many GI Generation Japanese Americans who made it big were in the 442nd RCT. I expect something similar for women who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan; they’ll be able to use their service as a battering ram to knock down some doors in civilian life. And don’t be surprised when “I risked by life for my country, I should be able to marry who I like” turns out to be an effective part of a marriage equality campaign.
beltane
I’ve been following the Guardian’s live blog of the European debt crisis, and I have to say that I’m happy we have President Obama instead of the assclowns running the show over there (and they are all, almost without exceptions, assclowns).
Villago Delenda Est
@Tomjones:
I’m not happy that the extension of the criminal Bush tax cuts was the price that was paid for this.
But it’s progress.
And the extension won’t last forever.
Gilles de Rais
@Tomjones: Words fail me when trying to explain just how fucked up this part of your post is.
Dead transcends all other states of being.
Trentrunner
Gay marriage ad, circa 2012:
“I lost my right hand to an IED in Iraq. Now I want to put a ring on my left.
Shouldn’t I be able to?”
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
@Roger Moore: WWII made a huge difference for women as well.
Turns out once you let them out of the kitchen to work in factories and pilot military aircraft and everything it’s kind of hard to convince them to go back in the kitchen.
Not sure what it says about the human race that taking part in a war = Gosh, you’re human after all! but since that attitude decreases the general suckiness to which we are prone, I’m not complaining.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
@Gilles de Rais:
I hope you are right but I know there are people currently serving that do have problems with some or all of those groups. Not the majority, not many, but some. I just don’t think we can now step away thinking the problem has been taken care of & we don’t have to worry about it any more.
soonergrunt
@Tomjones: It looks a lot like a corn dog, or so I hear.
Tomjones
@Linnaeus: @Gilles de Rais: I edited the comment. Fingers got ahead of the brain; it happens.
Villago Delenda Est
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
It’s interesting that the situation in Germany was very different. The idea of women working in factories, serving as auxiliaries, was rejected outright by the Nazi regime. Their solution to labor shortages was to enslave the populations of their conquests.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
And bear in mind that it wasn’t just this that we got for the deal. We also got a vital extension of unemployment benefits and ratification of START. It wasn’t the greatest bargain in history, but it was scarcely a giant giveaway, either.
soonergrunt
@Villago Delenda Est: They also kept over a million German men of military age employed in factories, rail roads, and other positions that were deemed too sensitive for slave labor. That’s a million+ men not carrying rifles and machine guns.
Villago Delenda Est
@schlemizel – was Alwhite:
I think that the different branches of the service will have different experiences with this change.
The Air Force, which is infested with “Christian” fundies, may resist this move strongly, while the Army, which is much less full of itself, always seems to be the leader on these types of changes.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
Some of the biggest advances in surgery and medical knowledge grew out of war.
Its a sick, sad world
Linda Featheringill
The hopey changey thing. Also, too.
Legalize
But when Obama pushed for the repeal of DADT, he didn’t really mean it. Just like he doesn’t mean it when he says that he won’t butcher medicare or social security.
Linnaeus
@Legalize:
I don’t think the president will butcher Medicare or Social Security, though I am concerned that others will try to do so.
Gilles de Rais
@Villago Delenda Est: Gotta say that in working and living with Air Force folks – enlisted and officers – over the last 8 years, I have yet to meet one single fundie. I do know they exist but I think to use the term “infested” is to grossly overstate the case.
I think all the branches will implement this equally; an order is an order, after all, and the brass all seem to be on board. There will be the occasional shithead, there always is, but the important thing about what has happened today is that if a gay servicemember crosses path with such a shithead, they now have legal protection and recourse as such shitheadery will no longer be permitted.
@Brian S: My coffee was awful this morning. Obviously this is God’s way of punishing me for supporting equal rights for all service members.
AkaDad
Obama hasn’t done anything for straight people.
Perry 2012
deep cap
@mantis:
As a former Republican (RINO, mostly) I have to say I agree with you. I really want to help you guys out since I find myself agreeing with you more and more, but why do you keep shooting yourselves in the foot?
@Larime the Gimp:
Perry’s not president yet, so we don’t know WHAT he’s going to do. Bush didn’t do this shit. (Don’t forget how he let down his own base when he refused to do anything about criminalizing teh gayz!!11 [other than appointing justices, of course])
jibeaux
Also, too, polls universally show very strong support for higher tax rates for the rich. (It probably isn’t helping their cause any that the rich keep going out and saying, “well, after I pay for everything I hardly even have $400,000 left over.”) I see nothing but upside in Obama spending the next year reiterating that we could have nice things, a better economy, and smaller deficits if the Republicans weren’t such gigantic assholes. I know, he isn’t going to say it that way, but I sure hope that message seeps into a few heads.
Short Bus Bully
Well at least the LBGT folks are lining up to shake Obama’s hand and say thanks since he’s removed such a massive hurdle for them in such a permanent fashion.
/crickets
RP
This is so ridiculous and inaccurate. As a long-time leftie, I feel obligated to set you straight and point out that we shoot ourselves in the face, not the foot.
Emma
@Trentrunner: Just what the hell does this even mean?
Tonybrown74
@Emma:
It means, “since I can fight and get maimed, even die for my country, shouldn’t I be allowed to get married?”
The argument being, that equal rights in the military can be a huge step forward for advancing the thinking of same-sex marriage in this country.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
@Villago Delenda Est:
Thank God evil totalitarian assholes must be evil totalitarians assholes. We might all be speaking German. Or you all would.
Before the repeal everyone said the Marines would never go for it and lo and behold not only were they W-R-O-N-G, but the Marines were ready to implement first. (“Step out smartly,” remember?)
mantis
@deep cap:
I really want to help you guys out since I find myself agreeing with you more and more, but why do you keep shooting yourselves in the foot?
I’m starting to think that’s just who we are. Depressing…
catclub
@Villago Delenda Est: “And the extension won’t last forever.” … crosses fingers.
You do know that the baseline plan that Obama has includes extending the ‘middle class’ part, and the
compromise/hostage negotiation will mean all are extended.
Roger Moore
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
I don’t think it’s so much a “Gosh, you’re human after all” thing as that military service, especially in combat, is treated as the ultimate test of citizenship. It requires that you risk life and limb in service of the common good*, which does seem like a solid test of your qualities as a citizen. It’s harder to treat people as second class citizens when they’ve proven themselves according to the strongest test of their citizenship.
*Provided that the war in question serves the common good, though the people who most strongly accept this kind of argument seem least prone to question the value of any war.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Sure. The whole point of the war was to take things away from their inferior neighbors, especially the Slavs. Treating their conquered neighbors as slaves was a major war aim, not a means to an end. And what’s the point of fighting a war of national aggrandizement if you have to sacrifice your way of life in order to win it? The whole point of blitzkrieg was to make their wars short enough that they wouldn’t turn into WWI-style total war. It was only when the war turned on them in 1943 that they started to treat it as a struggle for national survival that required total national commitment.
Hob
@mantis: Why the hell should John Aravosis get to define “the left”? He is one guy. He is a lawyer and political consultant with a blog. He’s done some worthy work as a lawyer, and he tends to say a lot of idiotic shit about politics. I don’t see any reason to give a damn what he writes on his blog.
Culture of Truth
The GOP will claim credit for this in a few years.
Meanwhile, did you know there are open muslims in the military!
trollhattan
@Gilles de Rais:
Thank you. And thanks to everybody who dons a uniform on my behalf. Gay? Honey badger don’t give a shit. As for me, I hope we can bring y’all home, and damn soon.
Roger Moore
@RP:
FTFY. There’s a reason we describe the left as a circular firing squad.
MAJeff
Has Lindsay Graham come out yet? Is John McCain weeping petty bitter tears?
DBrown
@Emma: Huh, since this person lost a hand in battle, then they should be able to marry even if Gay (remember, left hand gets the ring). Pretty easy.
Kola Noscopy
I will put aside all my issues with how and when the repeal of DADT was accomplished, and simply say regarding this policy: “Good job, Team Obama.”
One way or another, they got it done.
MAJeff
@deep cap:
Did you miss the anti-gay ballot measure campaigns in 2004 that Bush/Rove used to attack gay folks and bring out the theofascisti? There are some very really policy problems facing LGBT people because of those worthless fucks.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gilles de Rais:
This is a bit over a year old, but reflects ongoing problems with the USAF Academy:
http://www.gazette.com/articles/survey-103202-results-force.html
The USAF has had a problem with its officer corps training for at least a decade now
JimPortlandOR
@Villago Delenda Est:
Hitler, as you say, didn’t want women working in the 1939-40 era, but when things started unraveling after Stalingrad, women were put to work in the factories and were able to sustain/increase production of war materiel even with day and night bombing from the uk and the usa. Your blanket statement therefore is not correct.
Comrade Dread
Good.
Regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum when it comes to other social issues, it was a stupid idea to kick perfectly good and able soldiers out of the military in the middle of
two, three, four,five wars (conflicts, KMAs, whatever.)Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore:
In addition, it was vital to maintain, as long as possible, the fiction that WWII was not like WWI, because the German people overall were not as gung ho about war as the Nazi leadership was. They were very leery, and with good reason given the deprivations of WWI, at the prospect of another long war.
Once Stalingrad happened, Goebbels launched the “total war, shortest war” meme. Before 1943, “total war” was just not discussed.
El Cid
@RP:
I hope you’re not suggesting that we can shoot straight.
Villago Delenda Est
@JimPortlandOR:
It took Stalingrad to change the paradigm.
The Allies were in the total war mode from the onset. The Nazis rejected it, as has been discussed.
mantis
@Hob:
Why the hell should John Aravosis get to define “the left”?
He doesn’t, but he represents a disturbingly large contingent of lefties that live in an imaginary world where President Obama could achieve all of their goals, exactly how they want them achieved, with a wave of his hand. That he doesn’t is a sign that he is a fraud, no better than Bush, deserves to be primaried, that a Republican would be better, and on and on. The point is that even when progress is made, the right way, so that it can’t be easily unmade by potential future presidents, they continue to attack the president for not waving his magic wand. It’s the same crap that fills FDL day in and day out. It’s the same crap that makes Nader and West decide to ramble on about a primary challenge.
The attitude of “Do exactly what I want, exactly how I want it done, now, and I don’t care what obstacles lie in the way,” is far too common among lefties, who think the word “progressive” does not have anything to do with progress, i.e. successive steps in one direction. They think progress means immediate revolutionary change somehow made possible by one man in a country with separation of powers. What they really want is a dictator, but one who agrees with them on everything.
In short, it’s not about Aravosis, it’s about what he represents. I just used him as an example.
Emma
@Tonybrown74: Is that what it meant? Communication fail, I guess. Me, not him.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@deep cap:
This deserves a good answer. My take is that what is commonly refered to as “the Left” in the US is really an uneasy and frequently unstable coalition between liberals and people who are authentically left wing. The difference is that liberals want to incrementally modify our existing socio-economic and political system to improve it and make it serve the common weal better, while an actual leftist sees the current system as corrupt and morally illegitimate to a degree that justifies tearing it down and rebuilding something new in its place.
While both may support similar long term goals in terms of changing what we have now into a more just and humane society, liberals seek that end via small-c conservative means while those on the left (properly speaking) seek it via radicalization.
These are philosophical differences that go beyond mere short-term tactics and consequently liberals and the left are bitter political enemies who fight with each other as frequently as they are allies. That both of them get lumped together as “the Left” in our political terminology when they really aren’t the same political movement is a triumph of right wing progaganda as the Right has for more than 100 years worked at using the violent excesses of the Left to discredit Liberalism.
soonergrunt
This is pretty funny:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2011/09/ask-an-apocalypse-specialist-dadt-edition
Hunter
A couple of points: the repeal of DADT is not the pot at the end of the rainbow. It merely repeals the Clinton-era compromise that was “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Don’t Pursue” (the latter portion of which was honored more in the breech than in the observance). The repeal statute does not mandate non-discrimination, although the services seem to have been diligent in incorporating that element in their regs. However, there have been no changes to the UCMJ at this point, so sodomy is still a crime under military law. If anyone wants to be an asshole about it, the means are there.
And there is nothing that precludes a reversal of the new policy by executive order or legislative action except inertia. Anyone who believes public opinion is going to have any impact hasn’t been paying attention.
On the whole, however, it’s a major step forward and will undoubtedly have consequences beyond the wildest nightmares of Maggie Gallagher and Tony Perkins, which I take as a major social good.
Joey Maloney
@Gilles de Rais: It’ll be interesting to see what DEOMI will be doing over the next few years. Too bad my father’s retired; he used to be one of their lead eggheads.
Culture of Truth
I hope you’re not suggesting that we can shoot straight.
Well it was going to be a circle, but then it was pointed out that circles are hegemonic, and squares are patriarchal, and triangles are difficult for the differently abled, octogons promote violence, Ovids are Latinate and Western, hexagons suggest anti-wiccan, Pentagons promote wars…
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: From the wingnut side, this is almost comparable to outlawing abortion. I’m sure their heads are exploding. It is a big f’ing deal no matter how its viewed. HCR and repeal of DADT are more than Clinton ever accomplished through triangulation.
beltane
@Roger Moore: In this respect, there is a strong parallel between Nazi Germany and the Confederacy, where women were not encouraged to serve as battlefield nurses the way they were with the Union Army, and where the North’s use of immigrants and free blacks was met with scorn. Also, the South was initially convinced that though their numbers were smaller, each one of their soldiers counted for more than one of the Union Army due to their inherent “superiority”.
Perhaps all wars based on racist myths are alike in this way.
Paul in KY
@soonergrunt: Excellent point. The Nazis were playing the long game, good German women were supposed to be pregnant & raising the next generation of cannon fodder for the glory of the Reich.
Paul in KY
@Gilles de Rais: Back when I was in (82 – 85), it didn’t seem infested. At least, the fundie ones had some non-canonical ideas then (I guess).
Paul in KY
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: I think it must be those cool dress uniforms.
Niques
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Now that it has been fervently adopted by the GOP, won’t the violent excesses of the Right discredit Conservatism?
Oh, please?
Yutsano
I’m gonna go kiss a Dawg now. Just because I can.
@Hunter:
The sodomy law in the UCMJ is very rarely enforced because it does not differentiate by gender. And it has no definition for lesbian sex in there. It’s also very hard to prove under UCMJ rules.
Despite the rule of Dubya, executive order cannot overturn legislative action. And both the House and the Senate need many more cultural warriors than they have now to re-enact the ban. Institutional inertia is not a bad thing.
@Paul in KY: Dress blues are the sexiest military uniform period. Granted I’m biased. :)
beltane
@Paul in KY: Cannon fodder indeed. My father, who as a child was imprisoned in a Nazi internment camp in occupied Italy, has vivid memories of his mother crying over the sight of 13 and 14 year old German soldiers. She hated Germans more than anything (two of her very young children died in the camp), but she still felt compassion over the plight of these child soldiers.
Paul in KY
@beltane: On their soldier’s supposed superiority, I would say they had a weird way of showing it as they took part in large set piece battles that minimized the advantage you would have with ‘uberwariors’.
Joey Maloney
@Culture of Truth: I’m sure I would find this funny if only I were smart enough.
Paul in KY
@beltane: In the Nazi mythology, they should have been able to wait until they were 18 to engage the untermenschen. Unfortunately for them, reality intervened & the evil people who were in charge started using child soldiers.
I guess I would feel sorry for them, except those who came in at 14 were volunteers & were probably rabid members of the Hitler Youth. Brainwashed, I guess, but you know how some little punks just love it when they get a taste of power. I would assume those kinds were over-represented.
I can tell you your mother has more compassion than I.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tom Hilton:
Yup. Except for the Troy Davis decision.
I don’t mean that snarkily. The end of DADT really Is a BFD, and I’m honestly happy about it.
But the GA Board of Pardons and Parole has committed a travesty this morning, and it’s awfully hard to feel giddily cheerful about anything else right now.
Paul in KY
@Yutsano: My USAF dress uniform made me look like a bellhop at a top quality hotel that happened to have a blue motif.
Those Marine unis are fine. Takes alot of bucks for a junior enlisted person to get one, though.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tonybrown74:
Someone (I don’t know who) noted on Morning Joke the other day that the two main things gays want equality in are the “traditional conservative values” — marriage and military service. Thought it was an interesting, if blindingly obvious, point.
Pliny
I’m a bit conflicted on this, as I’m not exactly excited to see anyone sign up for ForeverWar and be a party to murder, but it is a major step towards equality. Also I can be happy for the Coast Guard, I guess.
trollhattan
@Paul in KY:
A friend’s mother-in-law was in the Hitler Youth and says there was basically no choice, at least at the time and place she lived. I can’t express how strange it is to interact with someone with a direct connection to that time and place. We’re losing the last voices from the era, which I believe makes us more vulnerable to a repeat.
AxelFoley
@AkaDad:
LOL at this simple mothafucka. Cole, you need to invest in better trolls.
AxelFoley
@AkaDad:
OK, now I see you’re spoofing. My apologies for the troll comment.
Yutsano
@efgoldman: Nope you’re correct. The sodomy law does extend to off-duty conduct, but how many discharges have there been for actual sodomy in the past five years? Most are related to spousal abuse cases.
Paul in KY
@efgoldman: Yes, plus there is a catchall called ‘conduct unbecoming to an officer/NCO’. If all else fails, they can usually get you for that.
Gilles de Rais
@Villago Delenda Est: That the Air Force Academy is a deeply troubled institution is beyond question. However, it is important to keep in mind that less than 1% of Air Force officers go through the Academy.
So I’ll stand by my statement that the Air Force is not “infested” with fundies.
I’ll also say that the AF Academy has structural issues – unwanted proselytizing frankly ranking among the least serious of them – and probably should be shut down.
gwangung
@Gilles de Rais:
Interesting. Take your word for it, since you obviously know a lot more about it than I do. It’s something I’d like to read a bit on…
Catsy
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I would put it somewhat differently, actually. On one end you have those who have a realistic view of what can be accomplished towards liberal ends with the voters and political system we have, and are willing to compromise and accept incremental change in the right direction. On the other end you have inflexible ideologues who to one degree or another are unwilling to accept compromise, mixed records or imperfect victory; to them it is all or nothing.
I don’t really think it is an ideological split at all. There are plenty of hardcore leftists who are willing to accept imperfect candidates over Republicans, and there are otherwise moderate, good-government liberals who are single-issue voters willing to vote for a Republican in order to take out a “bad” Democrat who doesn’t vote their way on their single issue.
The whole problem of the left shooting ourselves in the foot really is about tactics, not ideological bent. I can work with leftists who think the system is illegitimate and corrupt. I can vote for them. But I can’t abide those who are willing to put Republicans in office in order to spite a candidate who didn’t vote their way, or who think that letting Republicans win is okay because Americans will somehow come around to their way of thinking if things get bad enough–against decades of history that demonstrate how much more effective Republican fearmongering and emotion-driven politics are when things are bad and people are scared or desperate.
These people are flat-out delusional, and they are part of the problem, not the solution.
deep cap
@MAJeff: true, but he still didn’t wave his magic stick to instantly ruin Gay Rights in America. He worked on his agenda, slowly. Just like our current president has worked on eliminating DADT, slowly.
Better late than not at all.
gwangung
Yuppers.
It just seems to me that wailing about being “hippie punched” over difference in tactics is over-dignifying the disagreement.
Villago Delenda Est
@Yutsano:
Technically, the UCMJ can be read to prohibit any sexual activity save missionary position sex for procreation between a husband and wife.
Which means that nearly every last swingin’ richard wearing a uniform has violated the UCMJ, if you take barracks bragging at face value.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Catsy:
That’s a reasonable way to put it. From my experience talking and arguing with leftists from a liberal perspective, and being at least a little bit of a leftist myself, part of the difference in outlook between the two does come down to more than tactics in the sense that a leftist far more than a liberal will see issues of social and economic injustice from a crime and punishment point of view. Liberals tend to see anonymous forces at work in society creating sociological problems that need to be fixed (note the passive construction) whereas leftists tend to see bad people committing moral and legal crimes.
The liberal point of view glosses over the moral agency aspect of our society’s problems; in the short run that is a weakness in the liberal approach both tactically in terms of politics (most people really like stories with villians and heros in which the just are rewarded and the wicked are punished, so leftists are better at crafting narratives than liberals) and in terms of morality, byletting individuals off the hook.
In the longer run I’m not so sure the liberal approach is as weak as it appears at first glance however. I think liberals are perhaps more accepting of the fact that there is a certain irreducible amount of wickeness and folly (stemming from human nature) in society and that when we try to bring a better world into being we have to take that into account and work around it rather than trying to erradicate it, and that attempts in the past to create a more morally pure society in a direct fashion have backfired catastrophically.
ETA: so the long and the short of it is that IMHO leftists tend to be moralists where liberals are more utilitarian in their outlook.
Jenny
I tired of hearing about Lilly Ledbetter and DADT.
/Me-Generation liberal
catpal
This is a great day that ended a horrible policy.
Congrats to those who serve bravely, and can now serve as who they are.
added benefit = I read a comment on a news site that stated that this guy would Never let his son serve with “them.” that good news = less bigots joining the military – yeah for that, too.
alexmac
While the end of DADT is a BFD and an important step, transgender folks are still not allowed to be in the military from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force:
While today is a day for celebration, tomorrow there is more work to be done.
slightly-peeved
@97:
Note that most other leftist parties around the world advocate policies well to the left of the Democratic party, but are in some cases more organised (and have stronger party discipline) than the Republican party, let alone the Democrats. These parties tend to be closer to organized labor, and practice politics according to a labor model.
My personal beef with the idea of progress on the left happening through the actions of a single dynamic leader is that it would have meant every other country left of the US would have had such leaders. I haven’t seen them, but what i have seen is leftist movements working relatively cohesively, applying constant pressure, and grabbing every half-loaf they can.