In addition to his garden-variety bullshit, like his claim that Freddie Mac paid him $300K (actually $1.6 million) for historical consulting, Newt has another trick that Kevin Drum nails:
Gingrich’s favorite debate ploy is to avoid answering tough questions by immediately zooming out to a million-foot level and explaining imperiously how enormously complex everything is. It’s all so impressive sounding that he seldom has to bother telling us just what he’d do about any of this enormously complex stuff.
Drum has a few good examples from last weekend’s debate, and they’re worth a look.
Here’s what I don’t get. Herman Cain became the frontrunner in part because he wrote books like this one (foreword by Zell Miller), that capitalizes on Tea Party resentment of politicians who talk down to the good people of America. Sarah Palin built a whole celebrity empire on the same kind of resentment. Yet here’s Newt Gingrich, a guy who’s out to prove that he’s smarter than everyone, who makes a habit of being patronizing and condescending, and he’s the new Tea Party darling? Is this an instance of “he might be a smart guy, but he’s our smart guy”, just as Herman Cain was “our black guy”? Or is there something else going on?
The tea party doesn’t really like Newt. But at this point he’s a more reliable asshole than Mitt. Tea partiers still suspect that deep down beneath that plastic exterior Mitt has a heart and will go soft when it’s time to brutalize the poor.
lol, that is standard libertarian boilerplate. i’ve heard Jim Manzi declaim it a thousand times at least.
And both de Bore and Kain did it here and you juicers lapped it up.
That principle is how America got turned into a skinner maze for experimenting with localized mob-rule and “freed” market economics.
And dont pretend you didnt buy the farm, mixie. you are no better than the teatards you sneer at. Its only a matter of degree.
And when i call y’all cudlips for lapping up the drench, you resent me.
I’m your Cassandra.
ressentiment…..its wats for dinner.
Nah, nothing new going on. Newt’s name just happened to be next in the Not-Romney rolodex. Next up: He Who Cannot Be Googled
c u n d gulag
They’re moving towards Newt because Newt was the real Godfather of the Teabagger movement.
When they look really hard, he’s everything they love.
It’s like R&R.
No matter what band you like, you look back to find its roots.
And in this case, it’s really fat Elvis.
And soon, they’ll move on to someone else.
If only Santorum wasn’t so creepy that he creeped-out the creeps.
The Republican electorate seems willing to overlook virtually any. constellation of character flaws for about six weeks as long as someone isn’t Mitt Romney and proves it by eagerly embracing the doctrinal insanity of today’s Republican Party. I bet Newt will Be out by Christmas because he’s an unbearable asshole. Santorum may just pull an upset in Iowa because he’s next in the rotation.
Huntsman is trying to distinguish himself by being more consistent than Romney and only embracing craziness (like Paul Ryan’s fiscal policies) that doesn’t blatantly contradict his earlier positions, so to the GOP he’s just another lousy left deviationist. Ron Paul is far too wrapped up in his own delusions to have any time to bother with those of his party.
@Samara Morgan: you are off the rails
@xian: Yeah, I don’t think this is going to be one of her “good” days.
@Omnes Omnibus: yeah, that was zero to crazy in one comment
You’re over thinking how these people operate. It isn’t about ideology or litmus tests or anything that resembles logic. It’s 100% about pissing off (and on) the “enemy”, aka the liberal.
Tea Partiers (and Republicans at large) aren’t really FOR anything these days – they define themselves in terms of what they are AGAINST. That tends to make one’s convictions rather malleable.
@Samara Morgan: Jesus Christ. I haven’t had my coffee yet and I had to meet up with your word salad. I keep thinking there’s something there but I can’t find it.
I think a good part of the anti Romney stuff is because he’s a Mormon and people generally don’t talk about that particular elephant in the room. For evangelicals, being Mormon is pretty much the same as being a Muslim.
Also too, I was on another site and saw a clip of Elizabeth Hassellhoof(or whatever her name is) being quite immature with Bill Maher their special guest yesterday. Elizabeth should really get married to Bill Oreilly.
Michael Brenner has an interesting take on the teaparty here.
@Emma: for cripes sake its not that hard.
Jim Manzi has been saying this for years, since 2009 at least.
that is libertarian boilerplate.
You are no different than the teatards. You cant bear to admit you got fooled either.
And you resent me because I think you’re stupid.
Newt is an unserious candidate. from Hotair.
Wait until the Southern Baptists realize that Gingrich has converted to Catholicism and they now have the choice between a Mormon and a Catholic… We’ll see how long it takes for one of the pastors associated with Perry or Bachmann to bring up that little fact.
I think Matoko-Chan/Samara Morgan has finally jumped into the shark pool. Almost the only thing that makes sense is her direct quote from a libertarian lunatic that aims, like Newt, at explaining everything and nothing. Matoko’s own prose is starting to sound like the Buffy Bot from BTVS when she gets her wires crossed and attacks the vampires with “That will put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!”
But about Newt. His shtick plays well with the rubes because it sounds so gosh darned wisdomified and proffessoried but with added finger wagging and fuckoffery to the imaginary “MSM” and “liberals” and “politicians.” I dont think it will wear well for long but to the extent they like him its because they also were trained to like the faux professorial shtick of a million pastors who lecture them every week and on TV and leave them with that relaxed, cleansed, rolfed feeling like they’ve done a good thing when they’ve just sat back and listened for an hour.
@mai naem: Agreed.
and consider this. KSA has a no admitt policy on missionaries.
Mitt was a mormon missionary in france while his peer group was gettin’ shot up in Nam.
How embarrassing would that be if the new Republican President couldn’t go to KSA and hold hands with Prince Bandar like Bush did?
@aimai: how about you just admit you were WRONG?
you nasty little moral scold.
and yes, i do think you are stupid.
@Samara Morgan: Motherfucker ain’t no peer of mine.
@Samara Morgan: I’m confused. If it is a matter of degrees, and his degree isn’t as bad as their degree, doesn’t that by definition make him better than them?
Tsk, tsk. Especially since the strap at the top of the book cover clearly reads “Foreword by Zell Miller”.
@Shalimar: YOU’RE confused?
@Samara Morgan: Two things. First, no one here resents you. People laugh at you, are frustrated by you because a glimmer of insight occasionally surfaces above the assholish persona you display, pie you, and play with you when they are bored. Second, telling us that Newt is an unserious candidate is not informative. Everyone knows here already knows it. When people comment on the fact that he is rising in the GOP polls, it is generally done with the same mixture of amusement, disbelief, and horror that, I presume, fans of reality TV get from watching a “Real Housewives of …” or “Jersey Shore” episode.
in principle, but not in practice.
This may have been before my time here, but was m_c ever on the rails?
@Omnes Omnibus: lawl
a lot of people hate my guts.
just ax chopper.
@Amir Khalid: i’ve always been able to read, mufassir maftoon.
not to my knowledge, but my history here doesn’t go back before here Makato Chan days, I believe.
No, Herman, you think they’re stupid.
You can read, yes, but how well do you comprehend? As is frequently pointed out here, you seem to have some difficulty with the latter.
@Samara Morgan: No, he’s right. Nobody hates you. Some think you are silly, some feel sorry for you, most ignore you most of the time unless, as was stated, they are bored. We all need to get a life on one level, if we are spending any time at all here. But you really, really need some more positive things to do with your time. Seriously, get outside, see the sunshine, smell the air, embrace something bright and positive in life.
@Samara Morgan: I don’t resent your calling me a libertarian because I’m not one. A shot that wide of the target doesn’t hurt. I don’t resent your calling me a teatard for the same reason. I don’t even resent your trying to pass yourself off as some sort of Muslim liberal; there are such beings and you could be one for all I know.
I wonder, though, what pleasure it gives you to hang around a place for the sole purpose of pissing people off. It’s a kind of psychopathy, this trying to make yourself relevant to the discussion.
makes about as much sense as anything else they have come up with, but yes, something else is afoot we’re not supposed to know about, i’m just sorry it has come to Newt-fluffing
@Amir Khalid: i can read the Quran, maftoon.
Back to the point of the original post, it doesn’t matter what the substance of the candidate is to the GOP primary voters. The only important thing is the attitude. They could support communist reeducation camps and as long as they did it while insulting the media and liberals, the GOP base would eat it up. And Mitt, for his many flaws, just can’t pull off a condescending sneer.
tell that to chopper and Hall Monitor Allan among a host of others.
three years ago i fled the GOP because of Palin.
i thought this was a liberal blog.
But im a troll now. i learned from DougJ the Mastertroll.
I live to prick your smug moral certitude bubbles.
Like i just did to aimai.
@Emma: i didnt call you a libertarian. i implied that you are stupid. i actually said you were the same as the teatards, because they resent people pointing out that they are stupid.
@Samara Morgan: Tell us again how commenters here thought we won in Vietnam?
@Samara Morgan: This is a liberal blog. You just don’t understand that liberal encompasses many diverse points of view.
tell that to the pie filter.
Oh, Zell. As a Georgian, I thank you for starting the lottery and the HOPE Scholarship for which I got a full ride at UGA. The scholarship is now like you in my eyes — degraded, old, crabby and bordering on useless.
Oh, poor, poor Matoko Chan. If you prick us, do we not bleed? I didn’t click on the link. Sad face.
Then in his next breath, Newt will tell you that there is no need for the government to address the complexities since “common sense” solutions exist to solve any and all problems.
Funny how that works.
The Ancient Randonneur
Makes sense to me that a guy who looks like Gomer Pyle’s twelve sandwich eating, chiclet-toothed uncle would now be the Tea Party darling.
There is nothing to understand here. The Republican base does not find Mitt Romney acceptable and they are still flailing around looking for an alternative to the inevitable. This does not mean they like Newt Gingrich, only that they dislike Newt Gingrich somewhat less than they dislike Mitt Romney. It’s not rocket science.
If President Romney (God forbid) were to visit Saudi Arabia as head of state, they would definitely not turn him away as a missionary. Because — this is a very subtle point, so you need to pay close attention — he wouldn’t be coming to proselytize. He’d be there on important business for both countries that required face time with the King. And because the Saudis have better manners than to invite a foreign head of state for a visit, only to spurn him when he shows up.
To me, the fact that Newt is even being considered a serious candidate is the GOP’s tacit admission that what they really want is for Obama to be reelected so they can have four more years of resentmentgasms while the grownups clean up the mess they’ve left…
It’s related. Here’s what I think it is. It’s something like, “You Democrats are scared to death of Candidate X because they exhibit Characteristic Y.”
Huntsman and Ron Paul are both out, permanently. If Newt collapses the way you’re predicting, the only one they’ll have left is Santorum.
This. There is no real reason why it’s Newt Grinch this time, any more than there was a real reason why it was Perry before, or Cain, or Bachmann, or (snigger) Trump. Any person not Mitt will do. It’s all random. But like everyone else, I do wonder: who among the not-Mitts will catch the bouquet when the primary voting begins after Christmas?
@Samara Morgan: Well, that bothers me even less. Thanks for the clarification, because I can now classify you. Genus: Deluded. Species: argumentative. Cultivar: bore.
From Richard Hofstader: “The enemy may be the cosmopolitan intellectual, but the paranoid will outdo him in the apparatus of scholarship, even of pedantry.”
They may hate scholars and intellectuals, but they also feel compelled to produce people who’re even more scholarly and intellectual than them if only to stick out their tongues at us and go “HAH! See, WE have/are smart people TOO!!!” Just in your personal life, you must’ve met some of those uber-pedantic scholar-wannabe wingnuts, who think that because they can keep talking, they must be saying something important.
And besides, as with everything else, they only resent people “talking down” when it’s directed at them. They love it when it’s done to someone else.
Our idiot savant sometimes offers a clue. Assholism is the numero uno interest of the Tea Party. They have a psychological fixation that the reason America has problems is because there aren’t enough assholes who will make the “hard choices”, which, of course, inevitably entails screwing someone who isn’t in their tribe.
Newt’s rise is probably attributable to his status as the biggest asshole who hasn’t been recently discredited. First it was Perry, with the 235 executions, but he was discredited for giving a shit about immigrants and, later, for having a series of public brain farts. Then it was Cain,with his calling the non-rich a bunch of losers. He was discredited by a flurry of sexual harassment charges and, now, by brain lock on foreign policy. Soon, the sordid details of Newt’s life will come out, probably accompanied by some fit of narcissistic pique. Then he’ll drop like a rock. Santorum may be next up or, perhaps, a rerun of Perry.
Huh. This too.
Newt Gingrich is the GOPs way of saying “Nyah, nyah, we’re smarter than you,” and the lefties’ way of saying, “Look, they’re so dumb they think Newt Gingrich is smart.”
In other words, Gingrich would probably make a useful political Rorschach test. Ask any self-described “independent” what they think of Gingrich, and you’ll find out which way they’re really going to vote.
Not to let MC hijack the thread but the original argument was whether a normal, moral, person would have stopped the rape, reported it directly to the police, and waited while the child’s mother or parent was found. As a mother, I asserted that yes, that is what I would have done and if McQueary didn’t do those things I thought it was a moral abomination. A very large number of people on the thread insisted that this was simply not the case–that a normal person would have run off and asked his father what to do first. That McQueary couldn’t be blamed. That most child rapes are “never reported” and so no one ever does report what they’ve seen. This position is also held, by the way, by that noted libertarian free thinker Megan McCArdle in a recent post explaining in loving detail while anyone who reports a rape, or stops it, is the true “sociopath” (her words) while people who think they would stop the rape of a child are simply delusional.
If MC wants to point to new information showing that McQueary actually did intervene in the rape and report it directly to the police it rather goes to prove my point than to disprove it. Apparently, according to all the people who so carefully explained to me that no one would ever intervene in a rape being committed by someone who stood in a familial/fatherly relationship to the, McQueary did intervene. So McQueary’s position in re the rape was identical to mine. Not identical to the balance of the commenters who spent hours excusing him as suffering from some kind of football induced stockholm syndrome.
Did I miss that part of his grand jury testimony? I’m pretty sure he did not testify to these new “facts”.
@Amir Khalid: not entirely, but I think when she takes deep breaths (or her meds, as the case may be) and resists the urge to encode everything in sci-fi leet-speak, and avoids elliding the middle part of her chain of thought (probably hard to do if you’re ADHD and on the asperger’s spectrum and huffing glue), she has occasionally engaged in coherent dialogue with the more sedate, coherent participants here.
In this case, a single (extremely flimsy) trigger flew her to glibertarians and then a whole “balloon-juice greenwashes libertarians” sidetrack and then, inevitably, to the whole you don’t get it I’m smarter than you the problem isn’t that my prose is impenetrable to anyone except someone both capable and willing to decode it it’s that i think you are disagreeing with me and you’re wrong wrong wrong nanny nanny boo boo daisy daisy give me your answer do.
Yeah. I get that. That’s my point. You need to find something else to live for.
Newt is just the latest manifestation of a disturbing trend for the GOP power brokers…
No matter what he says or does, 70-75% of Republican voters just don’t like Willard M. Romney.
@Face: I am eager to hear his explanation as to why this was not included in his testimony.
@nevsky42: ok… but, like, every time we clean up a republican shitpile we’re going to add a new entitlement!
If there are contradictions between this email McQueary sent his friends and his grand jury testimony, does he need to explain them, lest he himself get hauled up for perjury like Penn State’s senior VP and athletics director?
@Emma: you win the Internet today
Particularly if they can get the a-holes on the Super Copout to give away the store in exchange for some trinket-level revenues.
Why govern when you can move the Overton window so far right that your opponent does what you actually want, and you get to send 4,392 fundraising letters decrying the soshulim.
I’ve seen folks like M_C before, and they are not your typical trolls. She’s clearly got real issues. I suspect this is not the only site she manically posts on, looking for any kind of human interaction. She’s become a creature of the internet, woe be unto her.
My only profile question is, and it’s entirely superficial: Is she over 250 pounds, or under 100? It’s one or the other I suspect.
The mental image of a little astronaut inside m_c’s head pulling out circuit boards is rather disturbing, but somehow apt.
I have had interesting exchanges with m_c in her more lucid moments, but that was way back when she still liked me. She used to think my Arabic name was cool. Sigh. Where did it all go wrong?
@c u n d gulag: THIS!
Newt basically invented the modern GOP, but never gets any credit for it.
@Amir Khalid: I believe that this is simply a way of spinning what has already happened. McQueary spoke to the university official who was in charge of the campus police, days or weeks after the rape he observed. Now he is labeling that discussion “going to the police”, even though most people, virtually everyone, would not think of that as the same thing.
In all likelihood, PSU has started to acquire some crisis management folks, and they’re getting people to parrot phrases that will play well. Obviously McQueary is looking at losing his job, not to mention civil liability for him and PSU generally.
This has started me wondering yet again what happened to Zell Miller. He was a moderate Democratic governor; I voted for him twice. Then all of a sudden, he was a full fledged teabagger when the whole concept was just a gleam in the Koch brothers’ eyes.
Interesting factoid: Georgia is the only state that did not elect a Republican governor in the 20th century.
@aimai: I think the majority of people in those threads, not necessarily you personally, were debating the morality of what they assumed McQueary had done, not just debating an abstract hypothetical. We don’t know yet which version of the story is true, but I still think the problematic people in this discussion are the ones who assumed they knew all the facts based upon a grand jury report that didn’t purport to set forth a complete accounting of McQueary’s testimony or his actions.
As for our resident troll, isn’t it kind of funny how a person can condemn libertarian psychobabble with one breath and then lecture us on the awesomeness of Assangean Information Theory with the next? In Soviet Russia, Internet troll you!
You know what other group has this set of personality traits, from incredible self-absorption, to incredible belligerence on the internet, to incredible condescension, to incredibly high assessment of their own intelligence?
Villago Delenda Est
He doesn’t think they’re stupid, he KNOWS they’re stupid, because they bought his very stupid book.
@Rathskeller: I live in the academic bubble and I can assure you that “talking to the police” usually means “campus police.” Like those at PSU, mine also have real police powers within the campus, so one would go through them. It’s the one thing about McQueary that makes sense to me.
@AliceBlue: Miller was also a segregationist when he ran for Congress in the 60s, so maybe he’s just a regular politician with a Mitt Romney degree of flexibility. I recall a black lawyer who said that he appeared before George Wallace back when he was a local judge, and that he was a liberal guy who was much more respectful towards black people than other judges were. He may have wound up wondering “what happened to George Wallace?” but that’s how politics goes.
@Villago Delenda Est:
When it comes to Sarah Palin and Herman Cain, the contempt for their own audience’s intelligence is so thick you can cut it with a knife. I wonder if that was a factor in their unpopularity. Sure, the 27%ers eat it up, but those who haven’t totally drunk the kool aid might not appreciate politicians who completely take them for fools.
@AliceBlue: I voted for him twice too. Hell, I remember his keynote address at the ’92 democratic national convention. maybe it was 911 that turned him, or just going to Washington did it, I don’t know. Have no use for him now, sad really. He was a pretty good governor.
Villago Delenda Est
George Wallace once told his campaign manager, after a loss, that the defeat was because he was “out niggered” by his opponent. He had ran on New Deal themes, but race got in the way, and race took the day. Wallace vowed never to be “out niggered” again.
The rest is history.
George Wallace ran for governor with the endorsement of the NAACP, while his opponent ran with the endorsement of the Ku Klux Klan. Naturally, Wallace lost. After that, he swore by all that was holy that he’d “never be outniggered again.”
Also explains his re-conversion in the 1970s, when he became “born again” and said he was sorry for segregationism. In his own words, “You know, I tried to talk about good roads and good schools and all these things that have been part of my career, and nobody listened. And then I began talking about niggers, and they stomped the floor.”
Politicians are whoever they have to be to get our votes.
Or what VDE said.
@Emma: Interesting. I worked at my (large, urban) university for several years after graduating and I didn’t think of them as having that function. If someone broke into an office or was prank-calling the dorms, then you’d call the campus police. If someone was raped, then you called the real cops, the ones with guns and helicopters. Perhaps just my own blinders were in place.
That’s true. Miller was referred to in certain circles as “Zig Zag Zell.”
Have you considered the fact they they are that stupid? Occam’s razor and all that.
@Steve: didn’t Wallace lose an election and vow to never be “outniggered” again?
google says yes
@Villago Delenda Est: sorry for not reading the thread before posting! (ditto to Chris)
Villago Delenda Est
Not a problem! It means I share the hallucination with at least two other people!
What’s going on is ABO. Anyone But Obama. When they embraced Cain, they wanted their own Obama….as simple as saying, “you have your black guy, we have ours, so suck it.” They tried with Michael Steele, but that didn’t work out so well, and Cain is not working out so well either, so on to the next ABO. Being intelligent, being an outsider, being black, being a governor, being a businessman, being a Nazi, being a wife-cheater, being a woman,”…NOTHING matters except electing any person who can beat Obama. Their hate for Obama rules all. Obama is THE person who represents all they hate…liberalism, intelligence, compassion. He is the SYMBOL for all the hate they’ve stored up for many years, and the characteristics of their candidate mean nothing to them.
I wasn’t actually asking for someone to explain that George Wallace switched positions out of political expedience, since that was already the point of my comment. But it’s nice to know that everyone else knows that story too!
Which is why Newt hasn’t a chance in the primaries. Nor does Bachmann, Cain, Perry, Paul, Huntsman, or Santorum.
So, despite all his obvious negatives (for the rightwingers, let alone anyone else), his phoniness, his flip-flops, his overall “weirdness”, “Romneycare”, and even his Mormonism, Willard will most likely be the fascist nominee.
Because of all the Republican candidates, he is by far the most likely to beat Obama in the general, and everyone knows it.
God doesn’t love us enough to give us any of the others as the opponent (Obama stomps any of the others — with this economy, Romney can very well beat him).
I have always been able to read.
@DFH no.6: bulshytt.
If blacks and browns vote in 2008 percentages Romney needs an unimaginable 65% of the white vote to beat Obama.
Anti-mormon sentiment in white voters will deny him the presidency.
The GOP base is nearly entirely white voters at this point.
Besides which, Romney is a mormon missionary. KSA will turn him back at the border. He will never get to hold hands with Prince Bandar like Bush did.
@El Cid: you read in the womb, im sure.
And what would you have done, o righteous Muslimah?
@Samara Morgan: Reading in the womb wasn’t the hard part; it was the writing.
@Amir Khalid: made sure it stopped, (and i doubt very much that sandusky kept up his anal rape after mcqueary walked in on him), and contacted the local authority.
i bet sandusky scuttled away at speed and bribed/threatened the kid to stay shut up.
The duty of a shaheed is to witness, and to create justice through that witness.
Hopefully my adab would have carried the moment.
But i cannot say for sure, because i was not there.
aimai is sure….
therefore she is a moral scold that is judging Mcqueary without knowing all the facts.
@Samara Morgan: Yet you judge everyone on this site. You boldly imagine things that individuals here know and believe based on a few words on a page, but you choose not to judge when the stated facts are that someone watched a rape of a young child in progress. You choose to withhold judgment for some reason that is probably very important but you somehow forgot to mention. Whatever.
You’re a meaningless contrarian, seeking to make people angry by endlessly posting contradictions. It’s just not interesting. It’s sad, especially since you’re educated enough to use words like ressentiment, and you could actually contribute to the discussion if you wanted to.
At that rate, they’re gonna run out of peeps PDQ.
Since at this point in their devolution they wouldn’t be down with Sir Ronnie of Raygun, you have to wonder who’d they actually reanimate.
Or maybe not.
Many (most?) here would consider me crazy/foolish to engage with you, but I’ll bite anyway.
If Romney isn’t the most electable (in the general) of the 8 actual Republican candidates, which of them is?
Because that’s who the Republicans will eventually put forth as their nominee – someone who seems the best and most electable opponent to Obama (even if that person is thought to be half a RINO, like McCain was).
I say every one of them other than Romney who has even a prayer of a chance of winning the nomination would get stomped in the general because they are just too scary/awful/crazy for the swing voters who will decide the election.
And I think the Republican power brokers (including all the money guys) and even a majority (slight as it may be) of the fascist base know that.
You may be right about Willard’s Mormonism being a deal-breaker for a not-insignificant portion of the electorate, but I don’t believe it will be.
We’ll find out soon enough with the Republican primaries.
If Romney wins enough of those to get the nomination, his Mormonism will be a non-factor in the general (since it’s the rabid right fundagelicals who care the most about that).
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Samara Morgan: Wow you lying asshole, you’re still trying to pretend I was being literal? Even though I obviously wasn’t, and have clarified this multiple times?
I realize it was foolish to try to make you feel empathy for a man who was about to be murdered by his own government for religious reasons by demonstrating how you, or anyone for that matter, could also be the victim of such an injustice, when I should have known you’re not in any way capable of that emotion.
Just understand that nobody else here is as stupid as you’re pretending to be when you say I actually want you executed. Absolutely nobody else is dense enough to miss it when the quote you use has the very words “would be justified” right in it, despite your efforts to remove that context.
Are Sufis really supposed to lie to themselves and others in order to make asinine points backed up by bullshit?
You don’t know all the facts, either. As it is, what you say you would have done if you were in Mike McQueary’s shoes is not substantially different from what aimai says she would have done. So you’re calling aimai a moral scold only because she criticizes McQueary for what he did, which even you agree was inadequate: he told his boss Paterno, Paterno told his bosses, and when the higher-ups at Penn State took no action, the two of them just kept quiet for over a decade while who knows how many more children were raped.
Now that the allegations against Sandusky have come to light, the university is in disgrace. Paterno has been sacked for his inaction, along with the university’s president. Two senior officials face prosecution. McQueary himself is on administrative leave, and the university might decide to sack him too. I’d say aimai’s criticism of McQueary is spot on. Some moral courage on his part would have avoided these terrible consequences.
reading fail, brother.
she said she would have got physical.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
let me make this perfectly clear. i believe missionaries and proselytizers get exactly what they ask for. no i do not have empathy for Nadaukhari.
You see, religion is not evil. Religion is good for homo sapiens sapiens.
But pushing ones religion on others is evil.
i view proselytizing ones religion as a great evil, and the major cause of wars.
trying to tell other humans what to do is rude and ignorant.
the first time i got banned here was on the Evil Poor Black Muslim Somali Pirates kill Noble Rich White Christian American Missionaries thread.
And i’ll say the same thing again.
Missionariism is evil and stupid, and missionaries deserve what happens to them.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Samara Morgan: I’m glad that you can finally admit that you are an inhuman, bloody-minded monster.
Can you also admit that I’m not calling for your execution? Or do you intend to keep whipping out that quote every time you want to hold a pity party?
P.S. Saying that religion is a good thing, but that trying to get people to join a religion is a bad thing, is contradictory.
@Amir Khalid: do you know what is the greatest evil? that chosen people bulshytt.
the idea that your way is the only way.
Jews to Christians to Americans.
That is where American exceptionalism came from.
But all paths are the One path.
I like Samara Morgan. He/She/It shines a bright light on the insecurity, the vanity, and the nastiness of this place.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
I’m trying to think of a better example of insecure vanity than pretending that someone is calling for your execution when that’s obviously not the case. I’m also trying to think of anything said at BJ in recent memory that’s nastier than cheering on the actual execution of a man for running a church. In both cases I’m failing, but perhaps a longtime lurker like yourself can point me to some examples. I don’t read every comment, after all.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: okfine.
i’ll be superclear on this.
Nadaukhari deserves to die (imho) because he is a proselytizer.
Because he is a missionary.
Its that fucking “chosen people” bulshytt that has caused most of the worlds ills, including the twin horrorshows of Iraq and A-stan.
heres some dirty sufi poetry for Peter.
yes you dumb-ass cudlips (ahm lookin’ at you, Anne Laurie the JAFI).
your way is no better and no worse than any of the Paths.
so stop trying to cram it down the throat of every human you run across.
@Samara Morgan: Darlin’, I would suggest that greed and lust for power have caused far more of the world’s ills than religion. I would also posit that many of the wars and other atrocities that are ostensibly religious in nature have, at their root, greed or power lust. Then again, I have read history and don’t just spout off random crap that I think is fashionably rebellious.
I think SM isn’t saying religion is the problem. I think SM is saying that proselytizing is the problem.
Which makes sense, as Muslims have a strong rule against that specific religious activity.
That false equivalence is simply not true.
There is much difference in what the different religious and philosophical traditions can accomplish. How they can influence the development of a society. In some cases so severe as to render progress impossible unless people radically change their beliefs.
Also proselytizing is not a problem except to authoritarian theocrats like you.
In ancient Rome thousands of religions and cults coexisted peacefully, before the Abrahamic religions established their stranglehold and started murdering all heretics and apostates.
Well then what the fuck were you before?
Seriously though, whatever medication you’re supposed to be taking, you should probably get back on it. Or double up.
a hereditary republican. guns, dogs and Pony Club.
i thot this was a liberal blog.
@Samara Morgan: You keep saying that you thought this was a liberal blog. What does “liberal blog” mean in your head? If it isn’t living up to the expectations you originally had of it, you could always look for a blog that does.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
If Balloon Juice were really liberal, the commenters would be calling for the deaths of proselytizers.
But seriously, matoko, I’m actually glad you’ve finally admitted to yourself that you favor the murder of people for engaging in proscribed speech and assembly. This is a good step for you. Of course, it’s not so good that you’ve decided that this is the moral position, but that’s how it is, I suppose. Two steps forward and one step back.
Now, at risk of being accused of WANTING U DEAD OMG how about you deal with the other side of that coin? Let’s say that the USA passes a Constitutional amendment stating that being a member of a non-Christian religion is a capital crime. Also, speaking about religions other than Christianity is defined as unlawful proselytization, which is also a capital offense. When the American Gestapo comes to take you to the death camps, will you resist? Or will you use the same logic you use for Nadaukhari and decide that you have it coming?
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.
Or, will you deliberately misunderstand the question for another month? Will you evade the question by talking about Iraq or the Shah? Will you quote Voltaire like you have a fucking clue what point he was making? Probably.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
Also too, Christians have a strong rule against eating shellfish. I have a similar amount of respect for both of these rules.
Go to Hell!
You’re no Democrat,
We can tell!
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: You are persisting in misunderstanding the rule of law of sovereign nations.
The rule of law in Iran is shariah.
There is no freedom of speech, there is no freedom of assembly, there is no separation of church and state…the church is the state, the clergy are the lawyers.
It is not a MORAL position, it is a LEGAL position.
you can condemn it all you want, but you are powerless to change islamic culture and islamic jurisprudence.
America tried for 10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of dead american soljahs and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and dead Afghanis.
The empirical data is that nothing changed. America is getting kicked out of Iraq next month, and soon to be kicked out of A-stan. The lions are getting restless.
your American strawman is simply not possible because the rule of law in America is secular. For example 70% of americans polled against the construction of the “terror” mosque. That is a clear majority. Yet they could not prevent the construction. Because secular law is embedded in the constitution.
American missionariism (aka “democracy promotion”) is simply evil. It is trying to tell other cultures what to think, what to believe. Besides which, it DOESNT WORK.
There is NO secular substrate to support a secular society in 97% muslm Iraq and 99% muslim Afghanistan. KSA is 100% muslim. Iran is 99.5% muslim.
I personally feel this chosen people bulshytt is what has destroyed our economy and our foreign policy in America. The Jews believe they are chosen– but jews dont proselytize….they believe they are chosen to be left alone.
The American Horror Story is that Americans believe they are the new chosen people, and they proselytize. The Bush Doctrine, Peaceful Democracy Theory, and COIN are all attempts to impose our culture and our mores on islamic cultures.
Well, it just cant be done.
Islam is immunized to proselytizers.
I believe proselytizing is immoral.
Especially proselytizing with force of arms.
This is what bankrupted America.
I have tried many times to explain to you my own analysis of the US involvement in Iraq.
I think things are going quite well now:
No one apart from you thinks we went in there to create a secular society (more’s the pity). Or even a democracy really, except for the fact that we had to replace Saddam with something — once we had decided that he had to go. And democracy at least gives us some kind of start for a post-US order.
I don’t think anyone really cares if Iraq is still democratic in ten years. As long as we are not responsible for it. I don’t think anyone would be surprised if it’s not democratic any more in even 5 years — and there’s another Sunni tribal dictator in control. But at least he will know not to go invading his neighbors, if he doesn’t want the great powers of his day sniffing around and meddling.
100% of your rants are just your own nutcase imaginings.
You are too young to remember the decolonization movement of the 1960s,
but it has a lot of lessons for what happened in Iraq.
One thing you don’t seem to understand is that each time the West abandoned one of it’s colonies,
they always set up a democracy. It was de riguer.
The rule, the joke really, was that they had one democratic election once.
And after that some General or other took over, and that was that.
But at least the Colonial Powers were far away by then, and it wasn’t on our conscience.
we spent trillions. we built the three largest airbases ever built on foreign soil and we have to turn them over to the Iraqis. We built a billion dollar embassy the size of the Vatican and we cant leave enough troops there to protect it.
2.5 MILLION Iraqis signed a peition telling the US to GTFO.
Our allies KSA still refuse to recognize Malikis government.
RIGHT now there is shariah in the Iraqi constitution.
yeah, we meant to do that.
And we are going to see a replay in A-stan.
Karzai is trying to negotiate a long term alliance with the US while the talibs are bombing Kabul. we still have 90k troops there and we couldnt keep Karzais brother from gettin whacked in his own home.
its over Spock. You should read some Galtung, since you are so interested in history. Cheap oil fueled the myth of American exceptionalism. You are the one that educated me on Peak Oil, membah? back when no would talk about it?
After the Arab Spring…the American Fall.
and …winter is coming.
The way the US abandoned Iraq, is absolutely identical to how the French or the Dutch or the British abandoned their colonies.
They set up a nominal democracy and then they GTF out of Dodge.
Of course they offer to stay and help ;)
But somehow the ungrateful natives always say no. (sigh)
After that no-one ever gives a stuff again.
EDIT: I have literally seen this scenario play out 50 times already in the 1950’s and 1960’s
we didnt GO THERE to proselytize missionary democracy…..that is why we STAYED THERE…for 10 years, thousands of dead american soljahs, and trillions of dollars we didnt have.
Offered? Panetta begged pleaded and threatened.
The Iraqi people voted us out. Keeping on the hated invader/occupiers became politically toxic for Maliki and Alawi. Im sure they would have loved to keep sukking the anti-terrorism tit but the citizens wouldn’t allow it.
Democracy is a fickle bitch, aint she?
especially islamic democracy.
OMG Samara. I haven’t seen a thing yet which isn’t straight out of
Decolonization for Dummies 1964 edition.
I swear Samara that is because Iraq is really a special case on account of THE OIL.
They really would like to have things stable so that the oil gets out.
Did you click on my link above?
what do you think all the sabre-rattling in Irans general direction means then?
you think America is happy that Iran and Iraq are forming the new Shi’ia Crescent? hahahahaha
American FP in MENA was the benevolent strongman model for years.
Searching for another Ataturk.
Alas, there was only one Ataturk.
Samara. When Syria gets taken over by the Sunni and the Alawites get kicked out.
Iraq’s days as a Shiite-ruled nation are probably numbered.
I give it five years and Saddam II will be in power.
@THE: nope…..Muqtada al-Sadr will be in power.
He is in training to be the next Maliki AND the next Sayeed Ali al Sistani.
That will be a New Paradigm for MENA– the SELECTED head of all the Shi’ia and the ELECTED leader of the Iraqi nation.
The Defender of the Faithful– legitimized by both god and man.
Samara there is only one uncertainty in my mind.
It is conceivable to me that China will back Iran to hold onto and extend its influence into Iraq.
But Turkey is 100% with Saudi and Egypt now, in supporting the Sunni in Syria against Assad.
And the position of Iraq if they are surrounded on three sides by Sunni states is very difficult.
@THE: and yet they have a border with Iran.
soon to be a nuclear power.
those fab airbases built with american taxpayer dollahs may eventually be used to launch a nuke…..going……to Tel-Aviv?
you know who has a border with Israel?
I promise you Samara.
A few days after Iran explodes its first test nuke.
Israel will test a 1 megaton hydrogen bomb in the Negev.
@THE: so what?
everyone knows Israel has nukes.
what is that supposed to demonstrate?
theres only approx 13.2 million jews in the world…. and 5.7 million live in Israel.
There are approx 1.7 BILLION muslims……and most of them live in Israels neighborhood.
You are insane Samara.
Israel will take her neighbors with her if she dies. This is the Sampson option.
And I don’t just mean the Arabs Samara.
@THE: lol. Not just the neighbors.
Israel will take the US with her.
That is what crazy ex-girlfriends do.
Why do you think O is tiptoeing areond the Pali statehood issue?
If Israel starts thinkin’ we are just not that into her anymore, sheez gunna launch on Iran and try to drag the US into WWIII.
While she still can.
The demographic timer will kill Israeli influence in the US too.
Blacks, browns and youth dont give a shit about Israel.
We are gunna cut up their expired holocaust guilt mastercard in their faces.
I watch that situation, but right now I am very unsure what Israel’s real intent is wrt Iran.
I fear they will preempt.
I think the decision, whatever it is, is already made.
in a sense…..the Israelis are trying to figure out if O will actually allow America to be drawn in.
Last spring the republicans tried to pass a bill saying if Israel is attacked the US is mandated to jump in on their side….a mutual defense treaty. It failed.
O is deploying a lot of pro-Israel kabuki until he is relected.
The repubs also tried to pass a bill saying we wouldn’t leave Iraq this year.
we have nothing to say about that.
I don’t believe Israel expects US to support her forever. I read Israeli press sometimes. My sense is that Israelis know their situation. The government knows US will not be a force in MENA much longer.
Also it’s not just holocaust guilt. It’s 2000 years of persecution, exclusion and hatred. The Nazis were just the final obscenity.
lol! that is exactly why Israel will launch on Iran if she believes she can draw us in.
its her last chance.
its not just that Americas regional influence is waning– its that older white christians (ie republicans) are losing control of the electorate. And like i said, blacks, browns and youth dont give a shit about Israel.
heres a good Bacevich aticle explaining the collapse of Bush’s Freedom Agenda.
My point is that al-Islam and its immunity to proselytization is part of the reason the Freedom Agenda failed so spectacularily.
you can read about the other three vectors here.
the end of western imperialism.
In the end it’s not USA that is the first concern of Israel.
It’s whether they believe a nuclear Iran can be deterred.
If yes then both sides will out themselves as nuclear powers and there will be a balance of terror. MAD.
If no, then Israel will preempt, I suspect.
I already read that article. I wasn’t very impressed by it.
@THE: It’s whether they believe a nuclear Iran can be deterred.
a nuclear Iran cannot be deferred indefinitely.
and the Israelis know that.
the whole world knows that.
except perhaps Mitt Romney and John McCain.
@THE: and the Israelis already have a plan spock.
They plan to ask for forgiveness instead of permission.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Samara Morgan: you can condemn it all you want, but you are powerless to change islamic culture and islamic jurisprudence.
Bullshit, matoko. Read this carefully: I NEVER WANTED TO DO ANYTHING MORE THAN CONDEMN IT!!! I NEVER WANTED TO INVADE OR WHATEVER STUPID SHIT YOU THINK I WANT!!! I OPPOSED THE IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN WARS FROM THE VERY FUCKING BEGINNING!!!
You’re the one who’s been blowing a gasket because I condemned Iran’s actions for a month now, so don’t turn around now and claim that it’s suddenly ok!
Also, we didn’t invade Iraq and Afghanistan to “spread democracy.” That was propaganda to be fed to stupid Americans like yourself. We started those wars because war is a great way to funnel taxpayer money to the well connected. That’s it. Every other reason given was just window dressing. Or did you miss the part where our official reasoning for invading Iraq changed about a dozen times? That’s because they were all bullshit.
Read your Smedley Butler. War Is a Racket.
And try to get it through your thick goddam skull: just because I condemn the actions of another government, it doesn’t follow that I’m calling for a fucking invasion. Capisce?
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
of course not. that is why we stayed for 10 years and bankrupted ourselves.
of course not. we already invaded.
you have no standing to condemn the actions of another government…. your government has caused the deaths of millions.
Again. proselytization is a great evil.
sic semper all missionaries.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
No moron, our government bankrupted itself. GE, Blackwater, and other military contractors are sitting pretty. So is everyone who arranged for their largesse. The rest of us schmucks were never part of the equation, other than coming up with the right propaganda to get us to go along with it.
Sheesh, it’s like you think the Bush government wasn’t 100% corrupt, and that they were actually acting in the interest of the American people. They weren’t, and I’d have thought everyone outside of the 27% figured that out by now. I guess you somehow missed it.
Oh, and we invaded Iran? Golly, I guess I missed the news that day.
And I have plenty of standing to criticize and condemn anyone or anything I damn well please. In fact, you saying I shouldn’t do exactly what the First Amendment of the US Constitution tells me I can do kinda smacks of… anti-free speech proselytization. Not that anyone should be surprised by your hypocrisy at this point.
Only if it’s coercive. It is completely harmless if it is just a dialogue between people with different ideas.
You can always elect not to listen if you are not interested.
Of course authoritarian theocrats like you want to restrict freedom of discussion of religion, but sadly information just wants to be free.
But tell me Samara. How can you restrict proselytizing in this day of the Internet? Even if you have the death penalty in your country, some foreigner with a iPad can decide to spread the “good news”. LOL.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Bush and Cheney paved the road to hell with your good intentions and your fear.
WTF was the mission once there werent any WMDs?
The Freedom Agenda.
Ever hear of Operation Ajax? Ever hear of the reinstatement of the American Puppet Tyrant Shah Reza Palavi?
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
of course you have free speech here. Just like Terry Jones the Quran burning pastor.
im trying to explain profound, insurmountable socio-religious differences.
that explain why America spent 14.3 trillion taxpayer dollars on COIN, the Bush Doctrine, the “Freedom” Agenda, and Peaceful Democracy Theory. Because it was what Americans desperately wanted to believe.
the poor and the ignorant dont have IPads.
you continue to miss my point Spock. Muslims like Islam. When DEMOCRATICALLY empowered to vote, they choose Islam over missionary democracy.
You need to understand the appeal of Islam for me, personally and individually….for me al-Islam is both revelation and reason.
In the revelatory sense it works for my skull furniture, fills in my personal phenomic god-shaped hole.
But in the scientific sense al-Islam is an elegant and powerful uninvadable CSS.
Christianitys only defense against Islam is scaremongering and disinformation. Because the killer app of christinity doesnt work– Islam is immunized against outgroup proselytizing.
The Noble Quran forbids proselytizing the poor and ignorant. Discussion between intellectual and socio-economic peers is fine.
wallah Spock……are you a bio-luddite as well as a free marketeer?
Neither IQ or SES is infinitely plastic.
Samara. The Quran is not binding on me. I am an atheist.
The only country I feel has the right restriction, where religion is concerned, is PR China. It is illegal to teach religion to minors under 18 there. I think that is an extremely enlightened policy. Brainwashing minors is far more objectionable to me than discussing religion freely with adults.
@THE: that is fine. you dont have a god-shaped hole. neither does razib.
atheists should be atheists, christians should be christians, muslims should be muslims.
That is the Way of the Seeker.
There is no single version, no One True Path.
All paths are the One Path.
that is islamic. all chidren should be raised in their parents faith until they are old enough to choose for themselves.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Samara Morgan: As you like to say, LOL.
Mine? I opposed all of it. The wars were a stupid and evil thing for America to do, and I’ve always said so. You seem to have real trouble differentiating between individuals and the larger groups they belong to. This is a common trait amongst nationalists, racists, fascists, and other such scumbags.
You can’t honestly be this naive. The Freedom Agenda was bullshit! A just-so story! Not fucking real! It was just the excuse the Bush administration fed to the saps in the media who then unquestioningly spread the word. It wasn’t limited to freedom and democracy either. They used every buzzword and phrase they could: freedom, democracy, there instead of here, honor, victory, the surge, hearts and minds, painting schools, support the troops, etc. ad nauseum.
Sure, freedom, democracy, and ooga-booga were the most effective bit of propaganda, but they were never the real reason for the wars.
Another thing, why can’t you understand that I don’t identify with America the way you do to the Islamic world? I don’t have to contort my opinions so that I believe everything America does is right and good. When America does something stupid and evil, I’m glad to say so. For example, overthrowing Mosaddegh is possibly the stupidest thing America ever did, though pretty far from the most evil sadly. And guess what, we didn’t do that for ideological reasons either, we wanted our corporations to have access to the oil!
And I have no trouble saying these things while also being American. I’m not proud to be an American, though. As Bill Hicks said, my parents just fucked here is all.
As an American yourself, these shouldn’t be difficult concepts to grasp. Don’t you ever get the feeling that you’re not nearly as smart as you think you are? Ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect?
I categorically disagree with that. All religious beliefs are false except atheism.
is atheism a religious belief?
It’s a religious belief but it’s not a religion.
For the same reason that not-collecting-stamps is not a hobby.
I was brought up to believe I had one.
I know better now.
Or perhaps it’s truer to say that I found better things to fill that hole than God.
Love of Man.
Love of Nature.
So perhaps you could say my religion is Humanism.
My highest truth is Nature; and my path to discover it is science.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
amg try not to be so thick.
they were the reason we STAYED for 10 years.
but you defend christian proselytizing.
@THE: and i approve of that.
your humanism, Dr. Hamerhoff’s platonic substrate, my Real …all aspects of ..….an alignment.…of a signal.
that is the best way i can describe it.
you are hung up on the idea of the Supernatural.
The Real is natural.
No I don’t believe it was the reason the US stayed 10 years. The reason for the ten years was that was the time it took to stabilize Iraq to the point that there was a reasonable chance of a military-political environment conducive to allowing the critical oil-exports to resume.
It’s not an accident that America leaves just as the oil exports are getting back to prewar levels. I believe that was always the internal criterion of “success” for the USA.
You are saying that.. but inside, you are hedging.
The Real is nothing but natural.
There is nothing that is outside Nature, because Nature doesn’t have, “an outside”.
Your problem is that you haven’t really grasped monism.
I think you really need a genuinely Eastern tradition not a Western Abrahamic religion to sort that out.
Abrahamics always flinch at true, thoroughgoing Monism. They always draw back from it.
Buddhists, Taoists, Vedantists they go up to the edge and jump off.
That is the only way I can describe it.
Eastern religion is unfazed by true Monism.
It is a useful lesson for the transition to pure rationalism.
I would have advised you not to waste your time on any Abrahamic tradition, if you had asked.
@THE: LOL we are leaving because WE ARE GETTING KICKED OUT.
The insurgency peaked in mid-2007. The withdrawal date was agreed already in the SOF agreement the Bush administration negotiated in late 2008 as soon as it became clear that order was returning.
@THE: This is why I think the passing of Greek science to the East is so critical a development for Man.
The pagan Greeks discovered the essence of the scientific method, but classical civilization fell. It was overwhelmed by the superior viral character and tyrannical ruthlessness of the Abrahamic religions.
So for two thousand years, the Abrahamics held Greek science hostage. And they profited mightily from their monopoly of it.
It is the reason Islam and Christianity were both able to spread imperialistically in their respective “golden ages’.”
But there was a flaw. To conquer the world as imperialists, they allowed others to see the power of rationality.
Now the East knows the secret too. And for the first time in 2000 years, Greek science has made contact with powerful non-Abrahamic cultures, and the circuit has closed.
That is why the scientific revolution in China and India is so important. I hope — I believe these two civilizations will save both Man and Science from their Abrahamic cult-slavery.
China and India are the best hope of Mankind to overcome the imperialistic Abrahamic cults.
@THE: and we begged and pleaded and cried to get a rewrite.
and the republicans are still crying.
there is a profound difference between judeo-xianity and al-Islam.
al-Islam is universalist. All are welcome.
ANGLOSAXON judeo-xianity is exclusivist. and so its dying.
christianity may go on…..it just wont be white christianity.
You are confusing Science and Technology.
social brain hypothesis, evolutionary theory of games, evo theory of culture and neuropolitics are all part of al-Islam.
Ibn Arabi and Imam Ghazali postulated Many Worlds Theory as a response to Aristotle 400 years before the Catholics tried to burn Galileo.
It can’t be our Many Worlds Theory.
Our MWT is just a version of Quantum Mechanics.
I don’t believe QM existed in the Middle Ages.
Christianity is also Universalist. It seeks to convert the entire world. Islam was imperialistic for centuries before Christianity was. I have made this point to you before.
Anglo Saxon Christianity is somewhat exclusive, but even there it is spreading into Latin America.
When I talk about Christianity in relation to the Middle Ages I am of course talking about Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
The word “Catholic” means “Universal”. because it believes itself to be.
Not really. Other civilizations were masters at technology. Say China, invented paper, gunpowder, compasses, cast iron, printing, etc, etc. But even so, they never created an engine of invention and innovation like science. They were quickly overwhelmed by Western science-based technology.
No they are not. You are reading these later theories back into Islamic doctrines ex-post. It is like if I claimed modern oxidation theory was part of the stone age because they invented/discovered fire. LOL. The discovery of fire was trial and error not driven by modern chemical theory.
Where there is some genuine science, like the invention of astrolabes, etc, you are seeing the influences of Greek especially Aristotelian thought on Islam.
In other words you are a propagandist twisting history for your imperialistic cult.
And I believe China and India are going to end your dominance.
This map needs to be seriously rolled back:
If Mankind is ever to rediscover our intellectual freedom that we lost in the fall of the Classical world.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
No. Wrong. Stop being so gullible.
To the extent that I don’t think missionaries should be murdered, sure. I “defend” them. By that standard I also “defend” Republican congressmen. I also “defend” you, despite you being the biggest asshole of all.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: but it is the RULE OF LAW.
Its just not your rule of law.
do you think suicide bombers get what they ask for? so do missionaries in islamic countries.
sic semper missionaries.
@THE: bi la kayfah
Man cannot use what is useless.
That’s the trouble when you create repressive systems.
In today’s high tech-world people find ways to rebel.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Samara Morgan: The law, like every other entity, must earn its respect from me. You beloved sharia law has not. Neither has American law, for that matter.
You say RULE OF LAW like I should give a fuck. I don’t.