There’s a word for people who believe in the goodwill of their overlords. They’re called suckers. Kudos to this nun for resisting that temptation:
Let me begin by saying that I want to believe in the good will of the institutional church. An essential part of my commitment to Christ is a belief in the holiness of the church; that is what I professed when I took my vows. For me, religious life outside the structure of the institutional church is hardly imaginable. I love the church. I love its vision of God, its Scriptures and sacraments, its heritage, its tradition of faithful change, its saints and thinkers. I believe in its mission and future.
Yet my reaction to the visitation, and especially to the prospect of “doctrinal assessment,” contains more than a little skepticism. While I’m glad for a chance to “let Rome know the truth” about our lives and our devotion to Christ, I can’t help suspecting that those behind these initiatives are not primarily interested in the quality of my spiritual life. To put it bluntly, I feel that American women religious are being bullied. The fact that the visitation is apparently being paid for by anonymous donors, and that the leaders of our communities will not be permitted to see the investigative reports that issue from it, does not engender trust. And indeed, the dynamics of the visitation and investigation so far have been experienced by women religious as secretive, unfriendly, and one-sided.
The Catholic hierarchy are women-hating conservatives. But I repeat myself. So beating down nuns for doing the actual social justice-type shit that Jesus recommended is a twofer.
It’s that simple.
AA+ Bonds
I appreciate his endorsement here but it’d be awful nice if E.J. Dionne would apologize for presenting the conservative bishop-jacking position on birth control as one held by liberal Catholics
EconWatcher
Sounds to me like they’d best be careful about picking a fight with that nun. She is quite eloquent and sounds ready to rumble.
Brachiator
Fixt. They love women. They just want them to do what they are told.
Great link. This issue came up in a great interview on the Southern California public radio program Air Talk. The Vatican orders reforms for progressive nuns. Worth a listen or download.
One speaker noted the need for members of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious to be able to question the Church leadership. We know how in a democratic culture, every family has political disputes. When you have good strong arguments, truth emerges. And we find argumentation being a positive way forward.”
But another guest, Donna Bethell, Chairman of the Board of Directors, Christendom College, made this observation:
Shorter, shut up and go along with the program.
ruemara
Can’t wait for the Holy Sisters of the Reformed Progressive Church to nail those demands to the forehead of the Vatican boys.
Valdivia
Title win DougJ. Made my Friday.
Nutella
Progress! They were going to make the nuns pay for it, while refusing to let them see the results. Now apparently someone else is paying.
snoop dogma
“Female Catholic” is like “Gay Republican.” I keep hoping the protestants of this country will wake up and see that the Catholic Church has a long game and it does not end well for them. If liberals had any sense they would actively foment a little denominational warfare. If the Catholics at NOM can explicitly try to divide the blacks from the gays, then liberals should explicitly try to divide the protestants from the Catholics. As for the nun quoted, read between the lines – she hates the church, has lost all faith, and would quit in heartbeat if it weren’t for her retirement and complete lack of marketable skills. I wish some billionaire would fund a “leave the Church” pension program for people like her.
Linda Featheringill
I am not a Catholic.
It looks to me like the Catholic hierarchy has decided to take on the nuns [women religious] of various orders. They are attacking the women because they didn’t fall in line with the latest crusade [contraception, probably]. I mean, the men fell in line. Why can’t the women?
Kick them out! Off with their heads! Bell, book, and candle!
But that might be a mistake.
Nuns as a whole may be meek and modest but they aren’t weak. Life as a nun is too hard for the weaklings to survive. I don’t mean they die but they do leave the orders.
And your average nun is tougher than your average priest and possibly your average bishop.
If the Church wants to go to war against its nuns, sign me up for season tickets. And if you’re taking bets, I’ll put my money on the ladies.
Zifnab25
So did the Catholics and the GOP just do a full blown merger? Was there some kind of stock swap? I feel like I’m watching my native church get consumed from the top down.
DougJ, Head of Infidelity
@Zifnab25:
They did say some negative things about Paul Ryan’s budget, so credit where credit is due.
Punchy
Wait…..they’re not allowed to see the reports after theyre written? Why would it matter? WTF?
Heliopause
Jesus did not recommend “social justice”. The Jesus character recommended that people commit acts of charity on an individual basis but the notion that Jesus, Paul, or early Christians in general were in favor of a just social order has little to no basis. What Jesus in fact said in the Gospels was that social orders would be an irrelevancy in the near future, so the top priority for individuals should be getting themselves right with the Divine order.
That’s not to say that Christians can’t be for social justice, but it’s not something strongly rooted in the Jesus story.
Odie Hugh Manatee
That’s what you get for joining a cult that was formed around a prostitute, an unemployed carpenter and twelve social outcasts.
gwangung
@Zifnab25:
Actually, looks more like a Luthor/Joker team up than anything else.
El Cid
I hope Sister X next shows up with a beret, Ray-Bans, and wearing a black leather jacket.
AA+ Bonds
@Heliopause:
I think it is fair to say though that reading capitalism into the Gospels is an extreme reach
The Church, for all its failings, does consider such a reading to be heresy
This makes the emergence of capitalism all the more interesting historically, and as with the rise of scientific inquiry, I believe many of the answers might be found in works as medieval philosophy which even most philosophers and historians of philosophy treat as too boring to investigate
And forget most Christians, I mean, it would be interesting to ask Paul “Summa Theologica” Ryan if the worm that tortures the damned is corporeal or not
Ben Franklin
“The plain fact is: Since the early 1980s the Vatican has not seemed interested in hearing what women religious themselves think about the quality of life in their own communities. This lack of interest puzzles and disappoints.”
Holy Guacamole;
What’s puzzling about the institutionalized behavior of a male-dominated religious order founded on the subservience of females?
Larryb
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Yeah, the Scientologists are much snappier dressers, too.
Michael Demmons
“The Catholic hierarchy are women-hating conservatives.”
I hate to be THIS guy but…
The Catholic hierarchy IS women-hating conservatives.
David Koch
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
sounds like the front page of every lefty blog.
AA+ Bonds
@Ben Franklin:
There has definitely been a reversal of trends in the time described concerning how the Church gathers information about those orders
It’s not as though liberal Catholics ended up as 50% of the Church in the U.S. overnight or that their efforts have been constantly productive or constantly stymied
fasteddie9318
@Michael Demmons:
No, that doesn’t work either. “Is” can’t be used with a plural predicate.
“The Catholic hierarchy is filled with women-hating conservatives.”
AA+ Bonds
@Michael Demmons:
Don’t hate yourself but your first instinct was right here
Mike in NC
@Zifnab25:
The bishops most likely spend weekends hooking up with their GOP congressmen for a little golf and policy discussion.
AA+ Bonds
@Mike in NC:
Exactly so; both groups are waging political struggles in America from the right and often find common cause – one combats the left at large in this country and one within the Church, but there is clearly a lot of overlap
Ben Franklin
@AA+ Bonds:
Is that what Dionne was referring to when he said ‘since the early 1980’s’?
AA+ Bonds
@Ben Franklin:
Saints preserve us from the vague equivocations of E.J. Dionne, who apparently thinks to get with his dawgs he has to go on NPR and act like Catholics want their bosses to determine whether they get birth control
I’m just saying, things were getting better, and then they got worse; that’s pretty vague too but the Church was moving toward greater autonomy for women’s orders until a backlash that focused on ridiculous arguments about Mary as Co-Redemptrix or whatever to portray nuns as heretics
Unsurprisingly, this overlapped with a gay marriage of convenience in American elections over abortion and gays and condoms between reactionary Catholics and reactionary Protestants
There, that’s already a lot more specific than Dionne will ever get in print
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Larryb:
That and they have Space Opera!!
jl
The nuns know how to handle the situation. The Catholic Church long ago had to work through the problem of how to deal with the paradox of a divinely inspired institution doing God’s work through the channel of corrupt leaders. They have had to deal with a series of very bad popes in the past.
jl
@Heliopause:
” The Jesus character recommended that people commit acts of charity on an individual basis ”
Thought people here might be interested in an example of one of the Jesus character’s recommendations.
From Matthew 25, the final judgment:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
jl
And of course, since the Jesus character’s ‘recommendations’ about charity were purely suggestions about personal behavior that one may or may not observe (unless you wanted BURN BURN BURN in eternal punishment, but, hey, it’s up to you, dude, whatever), he would never criticize the social order.
From Mark 12
” 38 And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces 39 and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.” “
jl
But even so, the Jesus character would never, like upset things, or command people, force them, commie fascist order them around about what to do in protest of a social order, would he?
So, none of we fine prosperous people have anything to worry about at all, do we?
from Mark 11
” 15 And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. 16 And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. “
zoot
the leaders of the Catholic church have always been authoritarian, conservative anti-women hags right up to the pope. I feel pity the believers in the church.
Scamp Dog
I read E.J.’s next article (from the link at the bottom of the Catholic Sisters article), “Yet another finding that torture didn’t work.” I think he actually gets the issue right, but then he heads into comedic territory by suggesting “…a presidentially-appointed commission with full Republican buy-in…” to go over the evidence and build a consensus that we never torture again.
Yep, he apparently thinks there are some anti-torture Republicans with the courage to speak out AND the ability to convince the rest of the party of the error of their ways. Or he recognizes that saying anything impolite about the R’s would jeopardize his status as a Villager…
Geeno
Actually, it’s interesting how that whole “since the early 80’s” lines up to recent papacies.
Heliopause
@AA+ Bonds:
Certainly, there’s no basis for that conclusion either.
David Koch
0
gbear
Nunsy Smash!!
Phoenix_rising
@Mike in NC:
is that what they’re calling it now?
And if someone forgets a wetsuit…what is it then?
Heliopause
@jl:
This passage does not contradict anything I said.
@jl:
Jesus condemns the scribes and pharisees as individuals and explicitly endorses the social order for which they stand. See Matthew 23.
@jl:
Jesus repeatedly declares himself divine and reserves to himself actions such as the driving out of the moneylenders, which really didn’t have anything to do with social justice anyway.
And of course I haven’t even yet mentioned the passages about rendering unto Caesar, the poor will always be with us, and so on.
Nothing you’ve cited contradicts a jot or tittle of what I said.
Omnes Omnibus
@Phoenix_rising:
An ordinary Tuesday evening.
magurakurin
@Heliopause:
What is your point? That government shouldn’t be involved in helping the poor as Christ commanded to be done because he really was just saying that the world’s going to end soon so don’t worry about the government just do it yourself?
That’s the vibe I’m getting. But to continue to hold that point of view one needs to ignore the realities of the world in Christ’s day and then the following 2000 years of change in human politics and society. There wouldn’t have been a lot of point in Christ advocating government policy to help the poor in his day since he was a Jew and his country and people were ruled by the Roman Empire. There was absolutely zero chance for an average person to influence government policy. So, you know, render onto Caesar and all.
But the world didn’t end and Christ has yet to return. And shit happened. Democracy has become a powerful force in the world and ,however imperfect, people have much greater influence over government policy than they did in the year 30AD. Isn’t it reasonable to consider the fact that one of the best ways to help those who need it now is through the government and its policy? And since there is no Caesar and the government is, at least in theory, us, shouldn’t we be very, very concerned about policies that help the least of our brothers?
Bex
@ruemara: Can’t wait for the new Martin Luther to show up.
jl
@Heliopause: Well, OK, then, glad to hear it. But as with magurakurin @43, then I am not sure what you were saying.
Bex
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity: That wasn’t the bishops, it was the Jesuits.
cckids
@Bex:
Me too. Hopefully it will be Martina Luther this time.
dollared
What’s this about an anonymous donor that funded this inquisition?
Does anybody know about this? Is this some pizza magnate or the like?
gelfling545
@Linda Featheringill: From what I’m hearing from those I know who are still practicing Catholics the Vatican is making a serious mistake. People feel a lot more connected to “the sisters” than they do to priests. When people talk about the church doing a lot of good it’s usually religious women doing it. Priests, not so much. Bishops or Cardinals? Ha.
daveNYC
@dollared: Yeah, I found that bit pretty interesting. Does this mean that any random right wing nutter could pony up cash to help crush any elements of The Churh that they (and the powers that be, of course) don’t like?
Villago Delenda Est
@Scamp Dog:
The boat sailed on the “full Republican buy-in” against torture when a guy who was tortured didn’t tell the deserting coward to shove his policy where the sun don’t shine, but instead, as a blind slave to his ambition, hugged the deserting motherfucker.
McCain did not cover himself with glory with that. Quite the opposite. He became an utter disgrace to the uniform he once wore.
dollared
@Bex: No, actually, the bishops sent him a letter as well. Just to be fair and balanced before they start street demonstrations against Obama this summer.
El Cid
I guess maybe women (woman) should have thought twice before eating that apple.