matoko_chan has been sending me some of her observations. Here’s one:
GREENWALD is just doing his job, although he is a pompous narcissistic assclown.
And Obama is just doing his. As CinC his greatest fear has to be
that someone gives up the crypto key for Granai before we can GTFO in 2014.
This is apparently what she means by Granai. I thought her characterization of Greenwald was spot-on, read in its entirety. The rest of it is vintage m_c. For editing out the mandatory Assange portion, you can thank me in the comments.
Maude
Please don’t encourage her come back to comments. She derails threads with spamming her comments.
Ash Can
And this is FP-worthy because…?
Lurking Canadian
OODA! WAI cudlips!
Just Some Fuckhead
I got a little verklempt when I read that. I taught her “assclown”.
Gin & Tonic
@Ash Can: Because mistermix thought it was.
Steeplejack (tablet)
Funny. I was watching Cowboy Bebop last night and, as usual, thought of her. (M_C = Edward.)
White Trash Liberal
Allah bless you Matoko. Hakim Bey will serve you boat drinks in heaven.
GG is potentially getting himself into hot water, and not the kind that will baptize him. It’s looking as if he has been working on a documentary for some time, and one of the subjects was Snowden.
And Snowden… Is a bit hinky. I mean, it’s possible to be a GED having IT wunderkind Paultard with access to the holy grail of US clandestine networking… But my suspension of disbelief to his claims and the quality of his information is tenuous at best.
Would be a shame to try and hit a grand slam as a civil liberties activist journalist only to discover that the bat you’ve been given is made of Batshit.
Maude
@Steeplejack (tablet):
I type on the NST with the eraser end of a pencil. Works like a charm.
Just thought I’d mention it.
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: It’s like rather than buying her an epithert, you taught her an epithet.
Circle of life and all that….(sniff).
Paul in KY
I hate that we cannot edit comments anymore.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead: M_C and eemom on your slate. What other sins against mankind are you responsible for?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Paul in KY:
Huh?
ETA: I think it’s you.
Yatsuno
@Just Some Fuckhead: You taught your young Padawan well.
Omnes Omnibus
Oh dear god.
Cassidy
I’d rather M_C be here than some of the shitheads we got now. Pie works at home, but that’s it. I wouldn’t pie M_C.
mistermix
@Paul in KY: What’s your setup? Because it works fine for me. In fact, I went through a fair amount of fuckity-fuck-fuck, as we professionals call it, to get it to work.
Ash Can
@Gin & Tonic: I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t have anything more worthwhile to post about, such as lumbago, a wonky knee, regularity, etc.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Maude:
Thanks for the tip. I had thought about getting a cheap stylus and trying it out, but maybe I’ll buy a designer pencil instead.
Corner Stone
I’m just still wondering how Dr. John Carter got a job with the NSA.
Maude
@Steeplejack (tablet):
You can get one of those holiday brightly colored ones. When I tried using my fingers, my hands are small, I was hitting the wrong keys. Tried the pencil when I registered it.
Xenos
I always liked MC. Could not make it to the end of some of the flame wars, though.
Paul in KY
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): In my comment box (once it has posted) I see a ‘Reply’ in lower right corner, but no edit button.
I use IE 8 (curse my work computer).
srv
I was thinking about a drone strike on Snowden, but we need to think bigger.
Objectively, GG is aiding and abetting terrorism against the National Security Apparatus, and thus the United States. Perhaps we need to discuss the parameters of a courtesy bomb on Brazil, as the world is the War on Terror’s oyster.
Just Some Fuckhead
I can’t edit my comments either.
ETA: Kidding!
Maude
There are tornado watches until 10 p.m. tonight in southern NJ.
The Dangerman
@White Trash Liberal:
Falcon (shit) and the Snowden.
/seanpenn
Paul in KY
@mistermix: Good ole IE 8 on a PC.
taylormattd
Oh Christ.
NickT
I am going to regret asking this, but who is/was matoko_chan and why would we care?
Xenos
@White Trash Liberal:
Eleventy dimensional chess, it is. General cultural freakout coordinated by White House leads to bipartisan movement to limit NSA powers.
Could happen.
Svensker
@Paul in KY:
Oh, I dunno. That epithert one was just about perfeck. :)
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone: I’m a freak magnet.
El Tiburon
@White Trash Liberal:
And Snowden… Is a bit hinky
Ah, so it begins. Time to destroy the messenger.
Assange, I mean Manning, I mean Snowden have some “issues” and therefore Look a bird!
Amir Khalid
Did she use the word “maftoon”? I kind of miss seeing it. Sometimes.
El Tiburon
@Ash Can:
And this is FP-worthy because…?
Greenwald bashing is always FP worthy.
Zifnab
@White Trash Liberal: Any attempt to discredit an informant is merely more proud that the informant us accurate. These are the rules of conspiracy-ball.
Now that Snowden’s claims are public, and have a veneer of truth, everything he claims afterward will be unimpeachable by the folks who are hearing what they already suspected.
That’s not even to say whether Snowden’s claims are accurate. I have little doubt that the NSA’s rush to embrace data mining produced bent bringing on lots of warn bodies on the contractor level.
It is just going to be annoying sorting out built from legitimate claims.
White Trash Liberal
@El Tiburon:
His message isn’t all that superlative either.
And thank you for incorporating me into the greater narrative of Assange and Manning, considering I have not said a negative in regards to either of their characters. But I will be your Piñata of Freedom.
Maude
@Amir Khalid:
She also insulted people here in a nasty way.
Cassidy
@El Tiburon: Well let’s see….Assange is/ was an accused rapist who refuses to face a court of law, Manning is a criminal and traitor, and Snowden seems to havea tenuous relationship with honestly. If that’s the company you want to keep, sure, but I’d be embarrassed.
Sucks, because it will drown out a much needed topic, but oh well, don’t do anything you don’t want recorded to the internet.
Mnemosyne
@Maude:
@Steeplejack (tablet):
I bought an iPearl case for my soon-to-be-delivered iPad Mini and it came with a free stylus. That was kinda neat. Chinese companies seem to be working hard to have better customer service than US companies do.
cleek
@El Tiburon:
perhaps if so much of what the messenger didn’t sound implausible, we wouldn’t have to pay attention to him. but, that’s not where we are…
Gin & Tonic
@Paul in KY: No edit button under IE9/Win7 either.
White Trash Liberal
@El Tiburon: Greenwald ball-cozying is also frequent FP bait. But don’t let that stop you from getting your hate on. The only time you appear in these threads is to defend GG against all threats.
Hal
I worked in IT once upon a time and can believe you can be a high school drop out and a computer whiz.
What I’m not understanding is how you start working with GG in February on a job you didn’t start until March. Not to mention the whole less than 90 days employed thing.
I still think there’s obviously important questions to ask about how far the security state should go, but I’m finding some of the players in this drama a bit eyebrow raising.
Corner Stone
@Zifnab: That is one nasty autocorrect program you’re working with there.
mistermix
@Paul in KY:
If I had a computer that would even run that, I’d test it out. But all of mine have auto-updated. Sorry for your situation.
BGinCHI
M_C; DR
Omnes Omnibus
@El Tiburon: Actually, quite a few people have shown interest in m_c and wondered what was up with her. Her signal to noise ratio was pretty bad and she could be appalling and casually racist. She has horrible musical taste and she was obsessive. She did, however, have some good insights into things on occasion.
Mnemosyne
@Zifnab:
IIRC, the Guardian and Washington Post have already backed off from their initial claims of wholesale spying and are now saying that the information is only being turned over in response to a FISA or other warrant. The tech reporters at places like ZDNet and Tech Crunch (via LGF) have been filing some really great stories that make it obvious that the original reporters of the story (including Greenwald) didn’t have the technical knowledge to report what they were looking at accurately.
Corner Stone
@Hal: He worked for the NSA in 2009 with other companies like Dell.
He didn’t pop out of Zeus’ skull, fully formed in 2013.
Cassidy
@Hal:
This is what normal politicla junkies of the Balloon Juice persuasion are saying. Unfortunately, what the GG acolytes hear is
“ZOMG! SHEEPLE! YOU’RE AN AUTHORITARIAN REPUBLICAN. ARGLE BARGLE! FRRRRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDDDOOOOOMMMMM!”
Maude
@Mnemosyne:
I have ELink. The soft eraser is good.
ipad can use a stylus with no problem.
suzanne
FOURLOKO_CHAN!
I sort of miss her stream-of-half-consciousness “wit” and “wisdom”.
Hal
Oh, not to mention his intimations that he’s about to be assassinated.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not really.
Ash Can
@El Tiburon: Greenwald himself burned Snowden but good this morning when he came right out and said that he was working with Snowden from the outset of his employment at Booz Allen, and quite possibly before. Besides the obvious legal implications of this, we now have what could have been a legitimate policy debate about the disadvantages of post-9/11 security laws buried by a huge heap of admittedly contrived hey-everybody-look-at-me manure. Happy now?
Corner Stone
#FREESNOWDEN
David in NY
“It is just going to be annoying sorting out bu[lsh]ilt from legitimate claims.”
It is because this is all so secrety-secret. That’s the most certain problem here. It’s a good bet there are worse problems, but that’s one for sure.
mistermix
@El Tiburon: The sentence “Glenn Greenwald is doing his job AND he’s a pompous assclown” is not a contradiction. And, frankly, considering Glenn’s personality, he probably wouldn’t consider it much of an insult. As far as I’m concerned it’s pretty much a compliment, since most journalists are assholes.
Ultraviolet Thunder
IIRC Snowden said he was walking away from a $200K job. Anyone familiar with IT knows that for every 6 figure salary there are 750 pixel stained wretches toiling away for $25K – $50K. Unless the NSA pays a boatload more for ordinary talent than the private sector (and for security reasons they probably pay a bit more), Snowden held a pretty responsible position.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@suzanne:
I am stealing that. It’s mine now.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: On rare occasion?
Todd
@srv:
Using up a Hellfire on GG defines government waste.
Gin & Tonic
@mistermix: Like I said, same thing in IE9.
Redshirt
M_C! I’ll admit one of the first times in my life I felt like “an old” was reading one of the dozens of M_C posts regarding the movie “Avatar”. I could barely read them, and thought: Is this how the kids are talking these days?
Thankfully, I learned she’s insane.
TooManyJens
@White Trash Liberal:
This is where I am. I have sympathy for him — I think he’s sincerely alarmed by what he believes to be true — but I also don’t think his claims pan out. I trust the tech press more than GG/WaPo on this, because most of them have a strong interest in privacy issues and they have more expertise with which to evaluate the story.
ranchandsyrup
M_C is like a player that you find terribly annoying when he’s on another team but you love him when he’s on your team. David Eckstein for baseball. I loved watching her rile up the glibertarians at the LOOG.
chopper
@suzanne:
i’m still waiting for ‘the american fall’ that was promised after the arab spring. i like fall.
Steeplejack (tablet)
M_C helping Cole cook.
Cassidy
M_C should have been FPing.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Never. Does never work for you?
4tehlulz
@Steeplejack (tablet): I doubt that sucka m_c would be that useful.
Cassidy
@Omnes Omnibus: Consider the source.
Violet
Interesting tag on this thread.
Todd
@suzanne:
Wasn’t she something else previously?
El Tiburon
@White Trash Liberal:
No, but you did say HINKY, didn’t you? Thereby buying into the narrative to some extent that Snowden has some kind of personalty defect – like it fucking matters.
All that matters is this: Is the material he provided accurate and true? If so I could care less if who he has locked up in his basement or if he thinks he is a girl or whatever.
But, like Assange and Manning or Trayvon Martin their ‘hinkiness” will become the focus.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cassidy: Her utter inability to grasp nuance or recognize irony would have been problematic.
El Tiburon
@Cassidy:
Oh boy. I’m embarrassed for you. But thank you for illustrating my point beautifully.
Todd
@Cassidy:
*shudder*
NickT
@El Tiburon:
Just think how proud Dick Cheney must be though.
MomSense
So is M_C in some sort of balloon-juice super secret probation?
Cassidy
@El Tiburon:
Oh you poor child. You really are as dumb as come across. but you’re welcome to refute anything I said. Conspircay theories of ebing set up in 3, 2, 1….
Todd
@Omnes Omnibus:
So you’re saying that she’d be a natural in the realm of IT employment, right?
El Tiburon
@White Trash Liberal:
No, I jump in to point out the idiocy and hypocrisy on GG bashers. Again, that Greenwald is ‘pompous’ matters why? Why the fuck do you people care about his pomposity? Shouldn’t you care about the CONTENT? And it is the lack of the conversation here about the CONTENT that I find so amusing.
SatanicPanic
@Cassidy: You mean you didn’t think any of her comments were FPing?
El Tiburon
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ok, So that Greenwald was the topic was irrelevant? Just simple luck of the draw, huh?
Cassidy
@Omnes Omnibus: She would have been fun and you know it.
@MomSense: She got banned for a bit and just never came back. She lurks. I think she got bored with us.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Ultraviolet Thunder: My wife said after she heard about the salary: “Well, it looks like the NSA has an opening.”
El Tiburon
@Ash Can:
Yes, it always tickles me the pretzels you people will get into to NOT have to debate the content of Greenwald’s articles. Now, what matters to Ash Can is that Greenwald worked with Snowden what?
A short convo with Ash Can:
El Tib: Hey, Ash, did you hear about the article Greenwald wrote that is being described as a blockbuster by many?
Ash: Yes, but so what because something something something.
THE END.
Joseph P.
Is Daniel Ellsburg an assclown also? He has called Snowden a hero.
“This wholesale invasion of Americans’ and foreign citizens’ privacy does not contribute to our security; it puts in danger the very liberties we’re trying to protect.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america
Paul in KY
@mistermix: No problem. Just have to look at them extra before I hit post.
NickT
@El Tiburon:
Do you feel Greenwald understands the technical side of the material he is describing well enough to form a judgment worth taking seriously – and, if so, why?
Cassidy
El Tiburon Translated:
I’m glad that GG gets your motor rumbling, but damn, go do that in private.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Tiburon: Randy Moss was a great WR in his prime; he was also a complete asshole.
GG, in my view, is a polemicist on civil liberty issues. I find that polemicists are of somewhat limited value. YMMV.
JGabriel
Hola, Matoko Chan!
Happy and relieved to see you around these parts again.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Joseph P.:
“Is Daniel Ellsburg an assclown also? ”
If he had leaked papers during a Democratic administration he would be, but he did so under a Republican so it’s all good.
El Tiburon
@mistermix:
If it said “pompous asshole” then that would be one thing. But “assclown” is an entirely different ball game. Being an ‘asshole’ still denotes a sense of seriousness and dignity.
Donald Trump is an assclown, not an asshole. See the difference?
suzanne
@Todd: She’s had many names. But she’ll always be my FourLoko.
Her story is, at heart, a cautionary tale.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Joseph P.: Nope, that’s reserved for GG, not for what he says, but the way he presents himself, where everything is about promoting GG.
scav
@Cassidy:
It was a bit entirely mutual. The grass is usually geener in the rear view mirror. Les trolls d’antan.
pillsy
@Ash Can:
I had assumed, based on Snowden’s prior career, that he would already have had a high-level security clearance when he started working with BAH. That makes his claims about salary more plausible, since having a clearance in and of itself is a hard-to-meet qualification for a lot of jobs.
Cassidy
@scav: I liked her. My one and only issue was her casual used of bigoted language, specifically what was directed at Amir. He’s said that it dind’t really bother him and that’s cool, but I wish she had dialed it back after being told “not cool”. Other than that, watching her get everyone’s panties twisted was fun. Hell, I even went a couple of rounds with her for the hell of it.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@El Tiburon:
“Why the fuck do you people care about his pomposity? Shouldn’t you care about the CONTENT? And it is the lack of the conversation here about the CONTENT that I find so amusing.”
They don’t do content here. They do “our side good, their side bad” and proceed from that assumption.
Soonergrunt
@Todd: many times.
mistermix
@El Tiburon: He’s clownish at times.
Cassidy
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan: Awwww, how sweet.
Actually we do that thing where if you’re a credible person, then we’re likely to give what you say a benefit of a doubt, but when you’re shown to be routinely dishonest or deliberately misleading, we don’t. Hence, GG has no credibility.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Cassidy:
“Assange is/ was an accused rapist who refuses to face a court of law”
That’s not so. Assange sought assurance that he would not be sent to a black site in the United States when he went to stand trial and was not granted it. It isn’t the bogus rape charges he refuses to face, but being sealed up in some local Guantanamo Bay.
“Manning is a criminal and traitor”
He is not a criminal because he has not been convicted of a crime. And he is not a traitor because he did not provide help to an enemy, but instead blew the whistle on illegal activities to a news gathering organization.
“Snowden seems to have a tenuous relationship with honestly”
Based upon what?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@El Tiburon: So, you’re reduced to looking for dignity in the word asshole.
Todd
Stupidest corporate violation of my privacy ever, just now. Got a call on my cell(!) from a Gallup rep, on behalf of my bank. He was surveying my most recent experience visiting a specific branch(!!), which I had visited Thursday. I might visit this branch once very four months, it isn’t my usual.
My account has my office line as my primary number, the rep says they’re making these calls on cellphones to get more response.
He knew enough for it to not be a bullshit phishing expedition, but as I’ve said before, since my bank is handing my info to third parties, I have no expectation of privacy.
I did hang up on him, though – pollsters piss me off.
suzanne
@scav: I think that E. D. Kain leaving just took all the fight right out of her. Makes me think of Inigo Montoya: “It’s very strange. I have been in the revenge business so long, now that it’s over, I don’t know what to do with the rest of my life.”
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Cassidy:
What has Glenn Greenwald said or done to lower his credibility?
Chyron HR
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Yeah, those Obotomized Obots who mindlessly worship (and possibly fantasize about getting raped by) Dear Leader are all about the tribalism.
burnspbesq
@Todd:
Really. Just kidnap his ass, dress him up in Lazio kit, bind and gag him, and drop him outside a bar frequented by AS Roma Ultras. They’ll know what to do.
White Trash Liberal
@El Tiburon: Snowden is putting his ethos out there as part of his personal narrative. And the claims made by both him and GG in regards to the actual extent and reality of PRISM are coming under scrutiny.
Snowden and GG are making a huge claim about the scope and authority of the national security state. I am interested in determining the full story without placing myself on a particular team with all my narrative and opinions baked in.
I would like to hear your appraisal of the leaks and the validity of the materials. How about you put your best foot forward and argue the “relevant details” instead of putting yourself on the other side of the character debate and pretending you aren’t.
El Tiburon
@NickT:
I have no idea. I have only skimmed the article in question. I find it all rather boring to an extent.
What I find interesting is to then see what happens aftewards. Folks like Charles Johnson, David Simon and Bob Cesca are basically callilng bullshit. I have no problem with this. Greenwald may have reported something faulty or in error orbe just wrong. If so, then I expect he will correct it.
But, I also expect Greenwald to respond at some point and that will be interesting to see. But more pertinent is that since it is Greenwald, many people WANT to find errors and mistakes just because. Look, ALL reporters/bloggers/people make mistakes. And if Greenwald’s analysis has flaws, so be it. I won’t defend him because I don’t think I’ve ever really defended him.
And if it is shown that his original reporting was faulty, then it will forever be tethered to him especially around here.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@White Trash Liberal:
“And Snowden… Is a bit hinky. I mean, it’s possible to be a GED having IT wunderkind Paultard with access to the holy grail of US clandestine networking”
Wouldn’t it be somewhat unlikely that Mr Snowden would provoke outrage from the government if what he was saying wasn’t true?
On the other hand, a person who drops out of school could never amount to anything in the world of computing, right Bill Gates?
burnspbesq
@Joseph P.:
Yes. One random good act 40 years ago doesn’t give you a lifetime pass to be an idiot.
El Tiburon
@Omnes Omnibus:
Assclown. Was he an assclown or asshole?
Todd
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Expressed his opinion, which is always wrong and usually dishonestly stated.
Cassidy
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
If you think that’s even remotely true, your delusional. The Bourne Conspiracy was a movie.
I think this is the most amusing bit of dumbass I’ve read all day. Blew the whistle on illegal activities? Really? Go back to the fuckin’ playground.
Has been discussed in other threads, inlcuding this one. Please keep up.
Don’t bother responding. I have zero respect for your position and you’re spin and delusion are not worht my time or effort. I prefer to stay in reality, thank you.
El Tiburon
@mistermix:
Goddamnit. Cole is clownish. DougJ is clownish. But I don’t think either are assholes or assclowns. Well maybe DougJ…
piratedan
good to see both sock puppets in the same thread… please proceed
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@El Tiburon:
” But more pertinent is that since it is Greenwald, many people WANT to find errors and mistakes just because.”
And look at what they are finding: “There’s something about Greenwald’s tone that makes me think he is lying.” “Greenwald’s latest tweet struck me as pompous, so clearly there’s nothing to this story.” “Greenwald doesn’t even live in America, and he reports for a foreign country’s newspaper, so who cares what he says?”
Ridiculous.
Alien-Radio
count me in the pro m_c camp, She had Kain pegged from day 1, so did I but she had the tenacity to really give that equivicating ass a serious trolling that I can only respect. Plus she picked up the OODA loop thing from me.
El Tiburon
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Around here it is a noble calling.
Mandalay
Nobody is more qualified than this great man to put some perspective on what Snowden did, but I still find his analysis a bit surpising….
I hope he’s right on all counts, but I think he’s being a bit optimistic.
NickT
@El Tiburon:
So you are defending Greenwald and calling others out on the basis of an article you skimmed, which deals with technical material you find boring?
Interesting approach you’ve got there.
YellowJournalism
Now someone just needs to track down Darrell or BOB, and our reunion of entertaining trolls will be complete.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Tiburon: Moss was both. In addition, he was a douchecanoe.
SatanicPanic
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
I predict you’re going to get a lot of answers to this one, but a particular lowlight for me was his farcical attempt at creating OWS brand outerwear.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Cassidy:
“If you think that’s even remotely true, your delusional. The Bourne Conspiracy was a movie.”
Assange does not want to be treated like Bradley Manning. That’s just a fact. And since the United Nations has judged America’s treatment of Manning to be cruel and unusual punishment, he has a valid concern.
http://rt.com/usa/manning-cruel-treatment-un-torture-383/
El Tiburon
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Dr. while I admire your tenacity, attempting to have any dialogue with Cassidy is like trying to clear your throat by shoving your hand up your a-hole. Totally not gonna work plus you have poop on your hand.
Cassidy
@YellowJournalism: None of these fools ahve got shit on BOB. That was some master class shit.
burnspbesq
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
He is a criminal because he pled guilty. Are you really that ignorant?
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
“I think this is the most amusing bit of dumbass I’ve read all day. Blew the whistle on illegal activities? Really? Go back to the fuckin’ playground.”
I know who won’t be going back to a playground any time soon: The Iraqi children that a US helicopter shot for no good reason, which we wouldn’t know a thing about without Manning’s leaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_Murder_video#Leaked_video_footage
Cassidy
@El Tiburon: Are you still looking for a hero? How many pairs of panties do you throw on stage? SQUEEE!
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Cassidy:
“Has been discussed in other threads, inlcuding this one. Please keep up.”
Yes, and never has anyone offered anything better than the absurdities I’ve already listed.
Jewish Steel
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Pretty good.
Cassidy
@burnspbesq: We’re dealing with the roving band of GG sycophants, hanger-ons and pustules. What do you think?
Omnes Omnibus
@Joseph P.: Ellsberg doesn’t choose my heroes. What he did with the Pentagon Papers was heroic, but I won’t outsource my hero determinations to him because of it.
different-church-lady
@El Tiburon:
Why not just throw in Sacco and Vanzetti, Ghandi, and Jesus Crhist* while you’re at it?
(*Left the typo uncorrected, in the spirit of the thread.)
burnspbesq
@Mandalay:
Wait, what? Legislation passed by Congress = executive coup? That’s too fucking stupid to require any further comment.
4tehlulz
After reading this, I am wondering if someone is following Snowden’s money trail. I have a sneaking suspicion the NSA was not the only one paying him.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@burnspbesq:
“He is a criminal because he pled guilty. Are you really that ignorant? ”
I don’t think you know quite how our criminal justice system works. That’s okay, such information is easy to find.
A question: if we already know he is a criminal, why is he currently on trial in court?
Soonergrunt
@El Tiburon: “Was he an assclown or asshole?” That depends on whether or not he had any dignity.
different-church-lady
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Then Assange should not join the U.S. Army. Pretty simple, really.
El Tiburon
@White Trash Liberal:
So what?
Good. Healthy skepticism and review is crucial.
I have not aligned myself with any team. I have made no comment whether Greenwald is correct or not. I don’t know. Now, saying that, I will say that I find Greenwald to always be very meticulous and thorough and I tend to trust him at face value, but have no problem if he is proven to be wrong on certain facts.
Again, I haven’t really read in detail the article in question. So, I have no real argument to make on the details. But, I will argue that when Snowden’s personality or personal details begin to become the focus, like Assange and Manning before him, then I definitely have an opinion. And that opinion is it does not matter. ALL that matter is the material. And I’ve seen enough prominent reporters/pundits/bloggers say this leak is a big fucking deal. So, I’m running with this and will alter my take as more facts come out.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@burnspbesq:
Do you know more about this topic than Daniel Ellsberg? If so, further comment is very much appreciated.
chopper
@different-church-lady:
Neil: Crucifixion is a really negative way to kill yourself man, I’ve tried it before loads of times, there’s no way you can hammer in the last nail.
scav
@suzanne: Might be it. She was more than a bit repetitive, which got old, and the free-floating obsessions and delusions were a bit disturbing to be constantly and unavoidably rubber-necking (pie-scrubbing is not 100% effective). But definitly more in the I hope she gets help than the I hope for a targetted asteroid class.
There were less exhausting (and more documented and balenced) sources of similar insight.
different-church-lady
@Joseph P.:
I hadn’t really thought about it before now. I guess I’ll have to do some research.
burnspbesq
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Because he didn’t plead guilty to all of the charges and specifications, and the prosecution decided to go to trial on the charges that he didn’t plead to. There are public documents, that you can find in less than a minute via Google, that explain all of this. Are you too lazy to do the research, or are you determined to be stupid no matter what?
El Tiburon
@Cassidy:
See Dr. Toboggan, what did I tell you?
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@El Tiburon:
“But, I will argue that when Snowden’s personality or personal details begin to become the focus, like Assange and Manning before him, then I definitely have an opinion.”
What, you don’t like the medieval method of evaluating claims by judging the person making them? I suppose when you get sick you don’t drill a hole in your head to let out the demons, either, mister hoity-toity.
mai naem
@El Tiburon: I don’t know the definition of Hinky but the the gist of the post was that there was something off about the story not so much that Snowden has psych issues. BTW, I would not be surprised if you now hear that Snowden is a child porn consumer, a perv, bipolar,schizo,wife beater or a psychopath etc. kind of standard MO from any government.
Anyhow, I’m just wondering how Greenwald and all the other purists expect Obama to even bring up civil liberties, FISA etc. when this is what he’s had to deal with four years :musleem! soshulist! kenyan musleem! appeaser! Illegitimate!Amerika apologist! black musleem! Democrat spit on the military ! America Hater! Commiepinkosocialist! Medicare killer! Deathpanel founder! Teabagger harrasser! Monkey! Chimpanzee! Ape! Gorilla! Reparations! N%clang! [email protected] Liar! Liar! Welfare lover! Foodstamp lover! UE numbermaker upper! Gungrabber! Seriously, they think he can lead these people to agree to curtailing the Patriot Act? Really?
different-church-lady
@chopper: I’m gonna guess: “Young Ones”?
Mark B.
@Mandalay: That’s a pretty hyperbolic statement. I’m a little disappointed in Ellsberg. Since the program was completely legal and nothing surprising was revealed, his statement seems a little overblown. Now that Snowden has fled to China and likely will provide them with all of the more important intelligence he claims to know, that’s somewhat of a bigger deal. You know, Ellsberg turned himself in after disclosing the Pentagon Papers. Imagine if he had fled to the Soviet Union?
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@El Tiburon:
Oh I believed you. I just have a few minutes to kill before preparing dinner.
El Tiburon
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Welcome to the Balloon Juice of Glenn Greenwald Hatred.
It is a feature around here, not a bug.
Omnes Omnibus
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan: Manning has entered guilty pleas to some of the counts with which he was charged. He is being tried on others. You may want to make sure you are au courant before you say stuff.
suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: douchecanoe
And a douchehat.
Ross really should change his name.
burnspbesq
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Yes, actually, I do. I still remember what I learned in Con Law about separation of powers and the structure of government. Ellsberg either never knew that, has forgotten it, or is deliberately misstating how our system of government works in order to make a point.
By definition, action by the legislative branch cannot constitute an “executive coup,” whatever the hell that is. In addition, the President has a constitutional obligation to “take care that the laws are faithfully executed.”
Mark B.
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan: I wouldn’t expect Ellsberg to be an expert on cyber security, but I haven’t researched the issue.
Ash Can
@El Tiburon: If Greenwald cared about the content of his articles, it’d be great. He’d really perform a valuable service. But he doesn’t. Instead of doing some actual journalistic research and building a scenario of what exactly the practical implications of FISA and the Patriot Act are and where exactly the system is going wrong so that legislative fixes can be applied, he’s all OMG NSA CAN GET WHATEVER CALL LOGS IT WANTS !!ELEBENTY! Yeah, no fucking shit it can. If anyone’s surprised by this, then their doctors are sure to be delighted to see them waking up from their 12-year comas. Got anything else? Yeah, some guy who Greenwald couldn’t be arsed to make sure wouldn’t make the both of them look ridiculous.
This is not what building a decent case looks like. This is not what persuasive journalism looks like. And this sure as hell isn’t what ethical journalism looks like. Given all this, I see no real content in Greenwald’s work because I don’t trust him to tell the truth, to tell the whole truth, and/or to bother getting his facts right. If there’s any content of value there, I won’t see it, because I can’t tell it from the bullshit.
El Tiburon
@Mandalay:
Well, Ellsberg did see a psychiatrist so you know he’s batshit crazy. So we can discount him as being ‘hinky’ as well.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Mark B.:
“Since the program was completely legal and nothing surprising was revealed”
But the papers Daniel Ellsberg leaked didn’t show anything illegal, either. And if “surprise” is what makes a story important, then you must be obsessed with the case of the cat jumping out of nowhere while you were watching TV.
“Now that he’s fled to China and likely will provide them with all of the more important intelligence he claims to know”
You think that’s “likely”? May I ask why? And China may have some catching up to do with the rest of the world in some areas, but I really don’t think a person has to physical travel there in order to give the Chinese government information.
“Ellsberg turned himself in after disclosing the Pentagon Papers. Imagine if he had fled to the Soviet Union? ”
Imagine if Ellsberg had leaked in a time when the United States practiced torture.
Mandalay
@burnspbesq:
Yes, I am struggling with some of the points he made myself.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@burnspbesq:
“By definition, action by the legislative branch cannot constitute an “executive coup,” whatever the hell that is.”
If the president does it, it’s legal. Got it.
El Tiburon
@NickT:
How fucking stupid are you? Go back and find where I defended Greenwald anywhere? Because I’d like to see it. Do you just see where I don’t say anything negative about Greenwald and thusly assume I am defending him?
Did you happen to read where I clearly said, “I don’t defend Greenwald, just point out the idiocy and hypocrisy on Greenwald haters”
So please, go find where I defended him. Please.
Soonergrunt
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
“I don’t think you know quite how our criminal justice system works. That’s okay, such information is easy to find.”
Why yes, it is rather easy to find…
Judge accepts Manning’s Guilty Pleas
Bradley Manning pleads Guilty to misusing classified data
PFC Manning admits leaking classified material that ‘upset’ him to Wikileaks
Bradley Manning pleads Guilty to some Wikileaks charges
And, right here, on our very site:
PFC Manning Plea Hearing Today
Oh, dear.
srv
You know, Ellsberg actually thought Vietnam was winnable, but the issue was the realists had privately given up and were just going to let it stew for a few years until Henry came up with the Decent Interval plan.
Sorta like we have in Afghanistan.
El Tiburon
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah, but he was a damn good receiver for a while.
different-church-lady
@Mandalay: It’s worse than that: he doesn’t seem to grock which branch is the legislative.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Ash Can:
Greenwald did do research: he spoke to an insider with intimate knowledge of this program. Was that unethical?
And again, the “surprise test” by which a story is only important if it is something we had not before expected. I wonder what Kim Kardashian is doing right now–maybe she is dating a movie star! That would be new and surprising, and thus important.
El Tiburon
@burnspbesq:
Come on, you know that Manning was considered a criminal from day one and was treated as such. Even Pres. Obama said he was guilty. You know that’s what he was referring to.
Are you really that ignorant?
Mandalay
@Mark B.:
Agreed, but more than a “little” IMO.
The rights and wrongs are much more clear cut for the information that Ellsberg exposed.
Point taken, but imagine if Snowden hadn’t fled. I don’t think he has much chance of keeping his freedom, but if he had stayed here he would have been dead meat.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Tiburon: I already said that. It was, to coin a phrase, central to my point.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@Soonergrunt:
Okay, he is a criminal who is guilty of leaking important information that the public needed to know. I suppose people around here look down on that sort of thing, when the president is a Democrat anyway.
NickT
@El Tiburon:
Child,please, try harder. You demanded discussion of the content of Greenwald’s article. Then, when I asked you to discuss why yes, the content of said article – you scurried off with nothing to say. And now, here you are yapping out some of the most boringly unoriginal personal abuse as if it could hide your hypocritical slack-bladdered ignorance and inability to say anything worth hearing.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@El Tiburon:
Yes, what a fine expert on the law our president is.
cleek
@El Tiburon:
right now, his personal details are interesting because some of this story feels … off, so people are trying to figure out what the angles are.
El Tiburon
@4tehlulz:
Of course. Because we all know some money is enough to be possibly pursued relentlessly by your government and being faced with charges of treason and espionage.
Yep, that’s the ticket.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@cleek:
“right now, his personal details are interesting because some of this story feels … off”
It doesn’t feel…off to me. I guess my off-feeler needs to be checked out?
srv
@YellowJournalism: Darrell wrote extensively in defense of FISA activities, PA and warrantless collection. It was hypothesized he had been part of the “community”. I’m sure the GG bashing Obamadroids and Darrell would be vewy, very congruent on this topic.
@El Tiburon: Say it proudly: I AM
SPARTACUSFIREBAGGER!cleek
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
yes, perhaps.
El Tiburon
@Soonergrunt:
Come on, do you agree or not with the assertion there is a big difference between ‘asshole’ and ‘assclown’?
Mnemosyne
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Er, no, Greenwald now says he was in contact with Snowden about this story before Snowden got the job and Snowden was feeding him information.
If the Chinese had done that directly, we would be referring to Snowden as a Chinese spy.
different-church-lady
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
They recommend yearly screenings after the age of 50.
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
As far as they can tell, that’s why Robert Hanssen did it. It’s probably the most common reason people agree to spy against their own country.
srv
Good TImes!
Salacious Crumb
all i can is say is, Edward Snowden is a racist because he deliberately leaked this information to make Dear Leader Obama look bad, ABL, eemom, Mnemosyne, can I get an AMEN!?
TG Chicago
It’s hilarious to me that anybody would call Greenwald narcissistic when it’s his critics who want to make the story about him.
Greenwald is not the story. If you dislike him, that’s all the more reason not to make him the story. Let’s focus on the actual meat of the matter. Let Maureen Dowd wank about the personality types involved.
El Tiburon
@cleek:
So the story ‘feels’ off – so let’s pursue the personal.
Why don’t we pursue the story? And if you honestly believe that the only reason his personal details are coming out is because the story “feels off” then you know swampland for sale and all.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@srv:
“Say it proudly: I AM SPARTACUS FIREBAGGER!”
You should try evaluating claims on their merit, not on the personality of the person making the claims. It might open up a whole new world of understanding.
John O
The 4th Amendment was always my favorite, so put me down as squarely on the leaker’s side in this one. This shit needs to be discussed.
It isn’t about the players, from Snowden to Obama, not at this size of intrusion.
Joseph P.
If the Watergate coverup had not unraveled the Nixon presidency, Ellsberg would never had gotten his freedom. Nixon would have used the information that Nixon’s bagmen Liddy and Hunt got by ransacking Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office to discredit him. Ellsberg’s trial judge would have taken Nixon’s offer of FBI director in exchange for finding Ellsberg guilty. And the official story on the Vietnam war would have been that we would have won had it not been for that traitor Ellsberg.
Think about that when you call Snowden a traitor and Greenwald an assclown.
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
@TG Chicago:
“It’s hilarious to me that anybody would call Greenwald narcissistic when it’s his critics who want to make the story about him.”
Blam! Hit the nail right on the head.
@different-church-lady:
“They recommend yearly screenings after the age of 50. ”
Oh god, I hate those things. Darn tongue depressors.
Hal
@Salacious Crumb: unless I’ve missed it, you’re the first person to mention race in regards to snowden.
different-church-lady
@TG Chicago:
Yes, let’s get back to basics here — I think we can all agree that matoko_chan is “a bit hinky.”
Mark B.
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan: I think you will find that the United States has always practiced torture. To think otherwise is rather naive.
Alex S.
She’s right (as usual). It’s not about Obama, the NSA would do these kinds of things regardless of who is president. It’s not about Greenwald, without him there would still be a leak and another journalist/man on a mission like Assange would pick up the story. It’s about the system that allows these things to happen.
different-church-lady
@Dr. Mantis Toboggan:
Hate to tell you this, but under the tongue isn’t where it’s located.
MomSense
@Cassidy:
Oh my, what does one have to do to get banned-step on Tunch’s tail?
El Tiburon
@Mnemosyne:
Whoa, are you comparing Snowden and Manning and Ellsberg to Robert Hanssen? You don’t see any difference between these people?
Did Manning spy on his country?
Dr. Mantis Toboggan
Here is an important story for those who think a story is only important if it is surprising:
Kim Kardashian Goes Off on the Paparazzi After Years of Being ‘Gracious’
Chyron HR
@El Tiburon:
Do you agree or not that mistermix has been consistenly railing against the security state since these stories started breaking last week?
Or is that “substance” stuff not as important as extracting confessions of insufficient Greenwalditude?
Amir Khalid
@Joseph P.:
How can you be sure of any of these hypotheticals?
cleek
@El Tiburon:
yes. when the backstory details don’t make sense, and there are big questions about the main story, it will all be investigated. i’m sorry if you would prefer we just take gg’s word for all of this and start the revolution straightaway. but it’s not going to go like that.
the leak itself is a story. and people are going to talk about it. like it or not.
to the extent that anyone here can “pursue the story”, we have been. did you miss the other dozen threads on this? “the story” has been discussed ad nauseum.
Mnemosyne
@John O:
Actually, it’s turning out that the size of the government’s intrusion is not so big after all, at least according to the technical press, who I suspect understand the technology better than the journalists writing about the story do.
This is one of the reasons people are starting to ask questions about Snowden — at least some of the information he provided about the government’s part in this seems to have been bogus, or at least misleading. His claims are not panning out.
Mandalay
@Hal:
If only that were true, but on another thread a poster got the vapors about “some” comparing Snowden to Rosa Parks.
Of course nobody was making any such comparison, but that didn’t stop the poster’s poutrage.
Gin & Tonic
@John O: I’m not clear on how the 4th amendment enters into a program where commercial entities whom you have contractually allowed to share data about your usage with others actually do share that usage data with others. Please elaborate.
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
As far as I know, Manning and Ellsberg did not do it for the money, but there’s some evidence that Snowden may have. So I’m only comparing Snowden to Hanssen, not Manning or Ellsberg.
I know you desperately want Snowden to be your new constitutional superhero, but it’s not looking good for him right now, especially the whole “buggering off to China in the midst of a cybercrime conference between the US and China” aspect of it.
Joseph P.
@Amir Khalid: The break-in of Nixon’s men into Ellsberg’s psychiatrist and Nixon’s offer of the FBI directorship to Ellsberg judge Matthew Byrne—those are not hypotheticals; they actually happened.
The judge declared a mistrial in the Ellsberg case because of the Watergate revelations. It is safe to assume that had they not come out, there would be no mistrial.
As for the Vietnam war, sure that’s hypothetical. But we do have Nixon on tape so we know that that’s exactly the history he wanted to write.
Emma
So some of you are saying that if someone tells me something and then that person is shown to be a liar or an exaggerator, I can’t take that into consideration when I evaluate his story.
All right, then. Carry on.
John O
@Gin & Tonic:
Fair point, but I only do that because I have no choice in the matter. Or very, very little, when one adds in my precious convenience needs.
I’m reminded of the South Park episode on the Apple iTunes agreement.
And I’m willing to accept that the 4th is effectively dead and buried. I just hope this kind of story renews some interest in it. Sad how personally people take, oh, I dunno, the 2nd compared to the other ones.
Just for the record, the 4th is pretty damn straightforward and tight.
Not saying any laws were broken, either. I’m saying the laws are broken.
different-church-lady
@Emma: No, not at all.
What some people are saying is that if a person is first shown to be a liar or an exaggerator and then tells you something, you’re not allowed to take that into consideration when you evaluate the story.
Emma
@different-church-lady: Oh. I stand corrected. Thanks.
Mandalay
@El Tiburon:
Exactly so. Posters here have written hundreds – maybe thousands – of messages about their opinion of Greenwald since Snowden went public, but hardly anyone is writing anything about (for example) the mysterious non-denial denials from Google, Facebook, et al on their participation.
Even an FP that DougJ created on that very topic descended into a bitchfest on Greenwald.
I’ve realized that many here just don’t give a shit about what Snowden revealed. And I’m not talking about the blowhards who pretend that they already knew what was happening. I’m talking about people who truly just don’t give a shit.
John O
I’ve watched the interviews with both GG and Snowden, and don’t have any sense of BS going on. GG is a bit of a hysteric when it comes to civil liberties, but IMHO we could use a few more of those in our Corporate Media. I’m glad he’s getting the exposure, and I’m glad he keeps pointing out that story isn’t about him or Snowden.
Oh, and if you’re making $200K/year, you have some serious access. Snowden, at 29, to get the jobs he’s had, is obviously a fundamentally technically talented individual.
Joseph P.
One point: Assange has not been formally accused of rape or any other crime. The government of Sweden (with the encouragement of the US, no doubt) wants to extradite Assange to question him regarding an alleged rape that the victim herself has declared did not happen. On what planet do people face international extradition in order to be forced to submit to questions when they haven’t even been charged with a crime? To my mind, it’s just a stunt being perpetrated at high levels to get Assange into a cell where he can no longer defend himself.
Snowden is right to hide.
Loneoak
I heard that if you go into the bathroom, turn out the lights, look into the mirror and mutter “cudlip” in a drunken slur three times, m_c will appear behind you yelling about Freddie deBoer’s murky libertarian leanings.
Corner Stone
@Mnemosyne:
There is? Where, please.
Mark B.
You might want to recalibrate your detector. Mine was pinged at 100% the entire time.
Corner Stone
@4tehlulz:
That’s a link to an article by TPM doing a timeline of employment by USG and then outside contractors to the USG.
What the fuck is wrong with you to read that and then come here and say the above?
El Tiburon
@Mnemosyne:
Does your little comparison exercise cause you any concern in that Snowden offered his material to an entity called a “newspaper” and on on-line “newspaper” that publishes things to the “public” while Hansen (insert Sam Kinison Voice here:) SPIED FOR THE FUCKING RUSSIANS!! OH OH OH! THE FUCKING RUSSIANS!!
Seriously out of all the dumb BS you have puked out, this one is right up there.
different-church-lady
@Corner Stone: Evidence… rumors… theories… what’s the difference, really?
Gin & Tonic
@John O: Why should this story renew interest in the 4th amendment when the program that is being described by Snowden has nothing to do with the 4th amendment?
The story about PRISM just tells people to be better about tradecraft. If you’re going to plot the violent overthrow of the US government, it’s probably better not to use Gmail for that. And if you’re going to call your buddy in Waziristan, it’s probably better to use a throwaway cell phone with a cheap calling card you bought at a bodega.
Omnes Omnibus
@Loneoak: You try it first, okay?
different-church-lady
@Gin & Tonic:
The 4th Amendment: it’s the new 2nd Amendment, only left-handed!
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
They all said flat out, “No, we’re not feeding everyone’s raw data to the government. We’re only providing it when the government shows us a warrant.” I’m not sure why you think those were “non-denial denials,” because they didn’t weasel around the issue at all. They said it’s not happening the way Snowden claims.
No one is writing about that because you’re the only one who thinks they were “non-denial denials.” Everyone else thinks they were just straight up denials.
cleek
@Mandalay:
they don’t seem like non-denial denials, to me and many others; and that’s part of what doesn’t make sense.
Mandalay
@Emma:
Nobody is saying that AFAIK….unless you have a link?
What some are rightly saying is that however flaky Snowden’s personal claims may be, that flakiness is irrelevant when evaluating the government data he released. Not a difficult concept to grasp, but I suspect that you may struggle with it.
John O
@Mark B.:
Forgot the YMMV add. :-)
Jesus, what’s in it for them? I just saw GG categorically deny the Guardian was paying for any information, and they’ve both just more or less ruined their own lives to varying degrees.
Your BS detector is calibrated differently than mine. I don’t assume people choose to be gay because of all the societal fun they’ll enjoy from their choice, and I don’t assume young people making lots of money in Hawaii (!) are going to choose a life of being on the run unless they feel pretty strongly about the issue at hand.
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
Only once it was revealed that Snowden’s safe haven of liberty was China.
Honestly, it gave you no pause whatsoever that Snowden fled to China? It’s totally what an honest person not spying for the Chinese would do?
El Tiburon
@Chyron HR:
I don’t know but will take your word for it. And…
So that there is substance ON OTHER posts somehow negates the lack of substance whenever Greenwald is involved? How does that matter?
Again, for the jillionth time: when Greenwald is at hand, you can be sure of a substance and fact-free thread. Why? I don’t know. Funny how I can read Greenwald and see a normally well-researched and thorough discussion of the topic at hand. Is he long-winded at times and sometimes a bit on the dramatic side? Yes. Yes he is. Pompous? One person’s pomposity I guess is another’s confidence in a sense. Asshole? Sure, Whatever. Assclown? Absolutely not. Greenwald does NOT equal Donald Trump.
FlipYrWhig
It still seems to me like there are two drastically different stories to consider.
1) The NSA hoovers up (pun intended) all Internet usage by tapping directly into major Internet companies and monitoring all activity. From there, it derives a blacklist of suspicious people and their circles of associates.
2) The NSA acts under the terms of FISA and/or the PATRIOT Act to hoover up Internet usage by people it considers suspicious, as well as their circles of associates.
An “executive coup,” per Daniel Ellsberg, would be a somewhat hyperbolic way to characterize (1). It would not seem to be an accurate way to characterize (2).
I would guess that the general public would be overwhelmingly against (1), much less so against (2). They would probably turn against (2) if it were shown that the NSA and/or the FISA Court were being too sweeping in building the list of suspicious people, for instance if it were shown that the list included not just suspected terrorists but also dissidents, activists, and such.
John O
@Gin & Tonic:
Nothing to do with being secure in your papers and person and houses? On what planet?
Corner Stone
Barton Gellman of WaPo just vouched for Snowden’s full credibility on Tweety’s TV show.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne:
China in and of itself isn’t bothering me. It was the “because it’s a country that has a good track record on freedom of speech” statement that made me think, “OK, dude’s just punking us now.”
Mark B.
@Mandalay: I don’t care about how flaky or non flaky he may be as a person, but many details of the story he has told so far have turned out to be questionable or outright false, which calls into question the entirety of what he has said. And some of his claims seem to be pretty grandiose. I hope Booz Allen can’t hack the President’s desktop, and if they can, it seems implausible that a guy with less than 3 months in the company would be given the keys.
joes527
@srv: This blog is nothing if not consistent.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Tiburon: Weirdly, I think most people saw this a toko-loko thread. I know I did.
Gin & Tonic
@John O: People have *voluntarily* given up the information that it seems PRISM is taking. It’s not an unreasonable nor warrantless search of anything, as they have already surrendered that.
*My* papers are secure – I don’t store them on Google Drive.
John O
CNN posting poll results that show giant majorities of Americans prefer to be spied on, presumably under the wonderfully sound “if you’re not doing anything wrong you don’t have to worry about it” principle.
John O
@Gin & Tonic:
Understood. Just like I voluntarily sign an agreement with Apple that for all I know coughs up my kids and volunteers me for experimental medical studies.
It’s my fault for not reading it.
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady:
I’ve been thinking about this in a different way, but it might shed some light. Let’s say, somehow, overcoming the NRA, there were a federal registry of guns. The government knew where guns had been bought, where they were kept, who was the legal owner, all that. Then a crime happened with a gun. Wouldn’t you want the government to be able to do a bunch of pattern-matching on their gun database to see the web of associations around each gun and gun owner? Even if you did it reactively rather than proactively, you could get far quickly with your database in investigating the crime. Is this NSA stuff different than that? If so, how? Not a rhetorical question, the real kind.
Mark B.
@John O: I don’t get why you’re somehow introducing the fact that Greenwald is gay into the mix. It pretty much has nothing to do with the subject of the conversation. It’s got to be one of the biggest non sequiturs I have ever encountered.
I don’t know what Snowden’s motivation is, but I do know that his stated reasons and certain details of his story don’t add up. I think we’ll find out more later.
Keith G
@mai naem:
(Emphasis mine)
So you are saying that the job is too hard and that he can not live up to the expectations of his employment.? He could lead if only folks did not pick on him?
To the extent that this is the way that some folks feel (and some here seem to), I find that scarier that a gun store full of drunk crackers. How can a society depend on such a tender and easily cowed leadership.?
For the record, I do not feel that this is the reason for his action in re the Patriot Act. He wasn’t cowed by insults. Like Bush his actions were/are shaped by the “Not on my watch” assertion. It’s possible for his team to point to real benefits in the short term just as it is possible for others to note the missed opportunities to redirect some of the momentum of the growing surveillance and security state.
Mandalay
@cleek:
Really? They do to me. From DougJ’s FP:
So what does Google say?..,..
Google relentlessly pounds the theme that THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT DIRECTLY ACCESS OUR SERVERS! Well whoopy do! They are perfectly well aware that the government does not need to access their servers. Google is carefully crafting factually correct and reassuring statements that are completely irrelevant and blatantly misleading.
But let’s bitch about Greenwald instead….
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: Is the credibility being vouched for a matter of his being who he says he is, or that his story is true about what the government is doing and under what conditions?
John O
@Mark B.:
Wasn’t thinking about GG at all, Mark. I didn’t know he was gay until very recently because I care so little.
It was non-sequitur for sure, but it was most definitely not meant to reference GG.
different-church-lady
@John O: Giant majorities of Americans no longer have a problem announcing to the world at large every god-damned thing they do every second of the day. I don’t think they’d even understand the concpt of “being spied upon” to begin with.
One of these days some people in left-blogosphere are going to wake up and realize “civil liberties” are their particular vibrating dildo, and not everyone else’s.
FlipYrWhig
@Keith G: Also, Obama DID bring up some parts of the general set of issues in the “end of the war on terror” speech. I don’t think it’s impossible for him to bring them up. If anything, I think he’d like to see Congress have another go at reformulating policy on surveillance and terror suspects, and that he wouldn’t pull a Bush/Cheney/Yoo/Addington and say that nothing can bind the executive, tough noogies, no backsies, neener neener.
John O
@FlipYrWhig:
I agree. Thank FSM we have a sane POTUS to, hopefully, lead this discussion. President Cheney would have just said “FU.”
different-church-lady
@Mandalay:
Considering that “THE GOVERNMENT HAS DIRECT ACCESS TO THE SERVERS!” is, indeed, what was being asserted, I’d call that a denial of the assertion.
John O
@different-church-lady:
True enough. But shouldn’t Americans be able to do that with impunity? Doesn’t the 4th basically say it is so?
I have no problem with The Man coming in RETROSPECTIVELY and invading my privacy if I do something wrong. Until then, they should bug out.
Mandalay
@Mark B.:
I see your point, but “implausible” is not the same as “impossible”.
Was it not also “implausible” (astounding?) that Private Manning had access to all the data he dumped as well?
FlipYrWhig
Spotted just now on Bob Cesca: Al Franken: I’m Not Surprised
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: It was multi-layered. Gellman indicated Snowden was a very intelliegent individual, he was precise in his descriptions and answers and when BG challenged him over a long period of time he felt confident Snowden had the access, facility and authority to do what he claimed.
That’s all a summary. I’m sure MSNBC will put transcript up later for those interested.
But BG had no hesitation about answering Matthews’ questions re: Snowden and the tale he’s telling.
Take that for what it’s worth, either way.
different-church-lady
@John O: To be serious, I think the whole situation brings up interesting quandaries about the lines of demarcation between personal and public. If my e-mail is stored on 14 different computers before it hits the destination, who’s house is being searched? Who does the message really belong to?
As to your second point, there are theories being presented that this is exactly how things are actually unfolding — in essence, that rather than everything being sucked up, they are only putting in pipes that allow them to suck up huge amounts very quickly and then look for the needles in the haystacks. I ain’t sayin’ I know if that’s true, I’m saying that I think there’s a reasonable possibility that the Guardian and Snowden have presented a misinterpretation of what these programs do.
And I know for a damn fact there’s a reasonable possibility people themselves have over-simplified what they’ve been told and heard. But the wheels on the eternal bus go eternally ’round and ’round.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: I, for one, am really happy Sen Al Franken is not surprised.
Of course, I’m also not surprised he’s not surprised.
Mandalay
@different-church-lady: Considering that “THE GOVERNMENT HAS DIRECT ACCESS TO THE SERVERS!” is, indeed, what was being asserted
You’ve lost me. Here is what DougJ posted….
The government is explicitly stating how they access Google’s data: “from company controlled locations rather than directly to company servers”.
So why on earth is google choosing to scream that the government does not access their servers at all? Because it’s all a diversion and a strawman. They want to tell you what they are NOT doing in reassuring terms, rather than tell you what they ARE doing. If google was truly honest, rather than being legally accurate, they would simply state that the government is accessing google user data from data centers controlled by google. That is what is happening, but google won’t be honest about it.
ruemara
@El Tiburon:
And you guys run about yelling dear leader jokes? OOOookay.
Look, if he did have someone locked in his basement and I’m not even going to touch the assumption that gender identity issues equates to a disorder, he’d still be worth scrutinizing. His message is one of information and closer public scrutiny. I don’t quite get how that exempts him from being scrutinized. Also, reviewing his key statements on what he wants to achieve and I’d say even the people who consider him a hero are missing his point.
If all you’re looking at is defining who is good and who is bad, as opposed to examining not just the national security laws but also the racket of national security, where a dropout got access to so much mined information, and at the exponential costs of doing this data mining-you’ve skipped past his point. The discussion of how to disengage in the pernicious fantasy of increased security through greater paranoia needs to happen. The discussion of how and who to elect to tear down this crap is important. I also think we need to examine how are all these “leaks” occurring and why? What, everyone got a conscience suddenly? How is this whole thing playing into constant war, constant siege mentality? Who is benefitting at throwing the issue out into the public, misframing it and then leading you past the real questions you should be demanding answers to? I also cast some side eye that a guy got this much access after 3 months on the job. Seriously? I had a year long process and that’s with my boring police record and being in control of mic volume only.
Keith G
@FlipYrWhig:
I am pretty sure there are folks who know (and have known for years) how to get that ball rolling. I care less about what the leaders of this democracy might like to do, then what they actually attempt.
Edit…Sometimes being in leadership means that one leads.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: My impression is that Snowden isn’t just making shit up, but that he is blurring the distinction between what I set up above as (1) and (2). IOW, that he’s taking a concern that surveillance so far aimed at suspicious people (like suspected terrorists) _could be_ broadened into total panoptic surveillance over everyone and treating it like that mission-creep has already started to happen. So he’s blowing the whistle on a set of practices he worries could be abused — and he’s not wrong in that — but not on a set of practices currently occurring. As with drones, it seems like where it can go amok is when too few people have input, and where all the incentives are on the side of leaving no stone unturned rather than caution, restraint, and skepticism.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Cassidy: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Or you may have a totally different concept of fun from (many of) the rest of us.
Of course, you could be fucking with us.
FlipYrWhig
@Keith G: Touche, but, to use an analogy I’ve trotted out before, no organization that wants to hire somebody wants HR to be _more_ involved, because it seems like it’ll create bottlenecks and wasted time. Likewise, the executive branch isn’t just going to voluntarily restrict itself — that branch wants maximal range for how it conducts itself, and probably (like the hiring subcommittee) figures its judgment is at least as good as HR’s, so why not cut them out of the loop and save time. That’s why IMHO the best course of activist action would be to make new laws, especially considering that Obama himself broke from conventional wisdom and _asked_ to have the powers conferred by the AUMF curbed.
Spaghetti Lee
@different-church-lady:
I was never under the illusion that most Americans share my opinions about privacy and data-gathering. Doesn’t mean I’m going to give up my own opinions.
mai naem
@Keith G: I didn’t say Obama is not up to the job. He picked his battles. In case you forgot he was trying to get the ACA passed through. And close down two wars. He got rebuffed by McCain on Gitmo. And the economy was in the shitter. And he had to deal with the BP deal. Lets not forget the underwear bomber. And, oh yeah, the Dems lost the House in 2010. I will have to sit down and figure out why FISA and surveillance etc. was not on the top of his to do list.
Cassidy
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Honestly, I genuinely liked M_C. She had some flaws, but we all do. She could be a bit much at times, but she was never just a straight out sshole like CS and JSF and she contributed a lot more than these tired ass trolls we got lurkin’ around.
different-church-lady
@Spaghetti Lee: Nor should you.
Frankly I’ve not made up my own mind how I feel about “being violated” like people have told me I’ve been violated. Intellectually I’m aware there ought to be a problem, but I’m just not feeling it.
What I was talking about are the folks who blow right by the trade offs, the pros and cons, the legal points, the possible mis-reportings, mis-interpertations, and misunderstandings, and plunge the spaceship straight into the heart of BIG BROTHER SHREDDING THE CONSTITUTION NO PRIVACY THOUGHT CRIME SPYING SURVEILLANCE STATE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE STASSI I’VE BEEN TELLING YOU THIS FOR YEARS!!! And then act all surprised when people outside of the 10 blogs they read feel that if the government catches a copy of their cat-playing-piano YouTube in their trawl nets it isn’t the complete collapse of all that’s fundamental about our freedoms.
Which, quite obviously, is not how everyone who has problems with these programs behaves. But there’s enough of them to keep the dialog from being fruitful and informative. Bus. Wheels. ‘Round. ‘Round. All that, all that.
different-church-lady
@Cassidy:
I would quibble with this assessment: she could be just as ‘sshole, but she was more entertaining about it.
In the end, I feel any ‘ssholishness from any of the three of them is more from conviction and passion than trolling.
Mark B.
@Mandalay:
No, not really, Manning went through the normal process that military personnell go through to acquire a security clearance. That’s a well known process and it’s pretty formalized.
But Snowden’s access to the magical hacking machine that could secretly peek into any computer on the federal network is much more dangerous. And there’s no way that an exploit that powerful, if it actually exists, wouldn’t have a very high level of security attached, not just to access of the system, but to even know that it existed. Intelligence organizations don’t give up this kind of information to the new guy who just got there yesterday.
Keith G
@mai naem: It’s a big job, but I am certain that there was room to p[ull and few Dems aside like Widen and the like and say, “Let’s get this going. Let’s get some ideas together on how we can let the public have the info it needs.”
mclaren
Ah, mistermix — the troll-fu is strong with one.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
How is what you posted inconsistent with the reports from the technical press that says that Google et al have a system in place to respond to government subpoenas?
There’s nothing in what you posted that says that Google et al are routing all of the information they collect to the government. It is consistent with what Google et al says they are doing, which is pulling out the information requested on the FISA warrant and sending it securely.
Basically, Google said, “We’re doing A, not B,” and your response is, “Ah-HAH! That’s PROOF that they’re also doing B!”
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
The Washington Post has already walked back their story claiming that that was what was happening. The current story is that Google et al are responding to FISA warrants using secure data centers. Which is what Google is saying in their statement.
So, given that the story has been walked back and is no longer about mass government surveillance, but about data centers’ response to FISA warrants, what about Google’s statement is a lie?
kdaug
@Maude:
FTFY.
Cudlips.
AA+ Bonds
hahahaha m_c owns
Cassidy
@kdaug: I knew what she meant. It was a good book.
AA+ Bonds
m_c offered more and better commentary on American foreign policy than anyone before, during or since. come back m_c.
El Tiburon
@ruemara:
Hey, remember those two girls who had been held captive for 10 years and then rescued by that dude?
You know word came out he had had some domestic issues of his own. It doesn’t change the fact that he rescued those girls. If it were my daughters I wouldn’t care if the person doing the rescuing was a serial killer, you dig?
So, let’s assume Julian Assange is guilty of rape. Ok. Convict him of rape. But does it change the content of the material on Wikileaks? Julian Assange and Bradley Manning are almost beside the point when referencing the material contained within those documents.
So, if Snowden had some other motives or whatever, it doesn’t change the fact that he leaked some documents that at least SOME VERY CREDIBLE sources are callling one of the most significant leaks in US history. So, at this point in the game, I don’t care about Snowden.
I care about those documents and I want to know if they are really a big deal and something that potentially could help alter the course of the expanded security-state we live in.
If they turn out to be fake or exaggerated or otherwise misleading AND this has correlation to Snowden being a Dbag, then let’s cross that bridge when we get to it.
AA+ Bonds
@Hal:
By being a kick ass stand up dude
kdaug
Oh, and the other thing m_c did, all the time, was change her name.
Dunno why, really – it was always immediately obvious it was her.
AA+ Bonds
Hmm yes this Snowden guy is kind of hinky, shady, smelly, you know what I mean? Possibly Jewish and gay, mayhaps a Muslim? Birth certificate please.
Corner Stone
@Cassidy: Unlike the nuance you provide when determining threatened violence is the answer to a disagreement you’re unable to properly articulate your position in.
And of course, there’s your glee at suggesting the blog threaten the livelihood IRL of another poster you disagree with.
You’re a real winner, champ.
different-church-lady
@AA+ Bonds: A Jewish Muslim? You never know…
AA+ Bonds
@Ash Can:
Don’t shit on people and tell them it’s snowing, Ash Can
Omnes Omnibus
@AA+ Bonds: You think a set of assertions that US foreign policy is essentially proselytizing evangelical protestantism is good commentary?
Cassidy
@El Tiburon:
See, this kind of hyperbole is stupid. Do you really believe that the monitoring of this kind of data hasn’t been happening for a very long time? SMH.
AA+ Bonds
@Cassidy:
Glad to know I’m not the only one to say so anymore.
AA+ Bonds
@Omnes Omnibus:
*knocks over strawman, dusts off hands*
AA+ Bonds
@Cassidy:
Right – you’re just a dickhead and a pushover if you dismiss it when it comes to light.
AA+ Bonds
Ho hum the government is spying on me. Yup my wife gets beaten in the street on the way home. Happens every day, nothing to see here, lol you’re CONCERNED about this?
Omnes Omnibus
@kdaug: She generally changed her name after a banning.
ETA: or timeout.
Cassidy
@AA+ Bonds: I didn’t say that at all. I just don’t get all the hand wringing and chicken little stuff going on. I mean, FFS, who really thought the NSA, whose job is to monitor domes electronic traffic, wasn’t doing this?
AA+ Bonds
Cassidy your slavish weak-kneed desperate bid for the approval of those in power has already failed. Why carry more water for them? Problems in childhood?
Cassidy
@AA+ Bonds: Oooh, you’re so witty. I don’t know what I’m going to do. I feel so insulted. Seriously, I do. You are so good at that. /eyeroll
That’s okay though. I’ll let you do the delusional purity pony emo prog foolishness and I’ll handle the facts, reality, and logical reasoning. That’s not too much for you is it? Wouldn’t want to strain you.
AA+ Bonds
Cassidy if Nixon’s dogs found out that Ellsberg was being treated for bipolar disorder would you have been going around telling people to ignore the Pentagon Papers
What if he was a shoplifter
AA+ Bonds
The point I am making is that everyone who challenges those in power is subject to the same slime machine, usually run by the exact same aging veterans at the levers, using the same tactics
AA+ Bonds
and the only reward you get for carrying water for those who gladly fuck you over, Cassidy, is . . . well, there isn’t one
Cassidy
That’s the stuff. You’re useless and irrelevant with nothing worth saying. You have nothing worth listening to.
ruemara
@El Tiburon: I wish you actually responded to what I’m saying, instead of having the argument with the non-issue you wish to have. Who. Cares. About. Assange. Manning. And. Snowden. What about all those firms with our data? What about these NSA contractors with our data? Why can’t we have some transparency and law about how long these things are kept or the costs of outsourcing to companies who obviously have really lax policy? Do we have a sunset on this data being kept? Are there firm standards of what/who is flagged? If we were really getting good information, we’d be closer to being able to answer the questions this leak should cause.
mclaren
@Mnemosyne:
Distinction without a difference. It is wholesale spying. 11,000 FISA warrants got served last year. As we now know, one of the warrants was for millions of intercepts.
No FISA warrant has ever been turned down. Ever. It’s a rubber-stamp kangaroo court, and it’s secret.
“FBI Recorded 27 million FISA `sessions’ in 2006.” Probably up to 150 million in 2012.
kdaug
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, I remember quite a few “timeouts”. And she’d try to sneak back in with a new nym.
mclaren
@kdaug:
Since you’re replying to a guy (omnes omnibus) who is a sock puppet for a PFC typing his bullshit out of a Pentagon basement, the irony here is rich indeed.
Mnemosyne
@mclaren:
The US population is about 350 million. Let’s say that 200 million of those people have email and/or cell phones.
The difference between 200,000,000 and 11,000 is “a distinction without a difference”?
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: What is really funny is that I was just about to agree with something you said:
But never mind.
mclaren
@Mnemosyne:
Thanks for demonstrating your gross innumeracy. No, the difference between 27 million FISA sessions in 2007 (and by now probably 100 million FISA sessions) and the 206 million adults in America is a distinction without a difference.
One out of every 8 americans compared to 1 out of every 2 Americans getting their phone calls intercepted…a distinction without a difference. It’s still an East German-style stasi police state.
Cassidy
@mclaren:
Yeah….lot’s of murdered Germans might disagree with your choice of comparison. You’re lack of awareness is offensive.
But, as I’ve said before, thank you for being you and reminding me that I didn’t have you pied.
El Tiburon
@ruemara:
You want to have an argument where no argument exists. I agree on most of what you said – transparency etc yes yes yes.
But, this entire discussion has centered around the personal foibles of the leakers. Why Snowden has access, in this context, is irrelevant. It could have been a janitor who happened upon it. Who cares? At this stage I ONLY care about the contents of the material. What Who Why and When don’t freaking matter right now.
Mnemosyne
@mclaren:
Those 11,000 warrants produced those 27,000,000 intercepts, dummy. It’s not how many people were wiretapped, it’s how many individual calls were wiretapped.
mclaren
Amid the bleatings of the craven quislings like Mnemosyne and Martin who rush forward to justify any atrocity or depravity by their government masters, let’s hear from one of America’s top terrorism analysts on why this kind of panopticon universal surveillance is an incredibly bad idea:
“The Foundation of a Very Oppressive State : Why one of America’s top terrorism analysts thinks U.S. government surveillance has gone too far,” Slate magazine, 7 June 2013.
mclaren
@Mnemosyne:
Prove it, fool. We know at least some of those warrants covered many many people.
Show us the documents or shut the fuck up, innumerate ignoramus.
mclaren
@Cassidy:
As opposed to all the murdered Afghan and Iraqi detainees who were proven innocent but tortured to death anyway by America’s out-of-control police state, like the taxi driver Dilawar tortured to death at Bagram after it was clear he was an innocent bystander picked up by mistake.
But the fact remains that most East German dissidents weren’t murdered by the stasi, instead they were arrested and thrown into prison on bogus charges. Exactly like the non-violent protesters at the 2008 Republican National Convention who got swept up and arrested on trumped-up bogus terrorism charges courtesy of exactly this kind of universal surveillance.
So your analogy actually supports my claims, but you’re just too stupid and too ignorant to realize it. Standard stuff for the B-J comments section.
Cassidy
@mclaren: Ahh, I see. I’m sure you’re very impressive to the other high school kids.
different-church-lady
@mclaren:
Sounds completely non-violent to me.
ruemara
@El Tiburon: Actually, you don’t care. You’re focused on the who, which is why I find your anger at the questions of the who doing the leaking very funny.
Mnemosyne
@mclaren:
As usual, you forget to read your own links:
But, hey, why read and comprehend the information you post instead of fearmongering about what’s in it?
Forum Transmitted Disease
She’s annoying but smart. Most of you tedious old fuckers are just annoying. Wish she’d come back and take her patented brand of batshit trolling to about 95% of the commentariat here, who are not worthy of her presence.
Oh well, glad she’s still out there carrying on. Godspeed, MC.
El Tiburon
@ruemara:
You are delusional. I just shitted out 30-40 comments railing against “the who” in all of this.
You are a putz.
cleek
@Mandalay:
says you.
i disagree.
your move.
Paul in KY
@different-church-lady: Thjanks!
Paul in KY
@Loneoak: Don’t do it, Loneoak!!!
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: Certainly would like to know if there are official docs spelling that out.
Paul in KY
Just for the record, I like Matoko & wish she still posed here (said by a cudlip).