Hearing Sanders reminds me that, once upon a time, there were no-kidding leftists among the talking heads. This is not to diss Sanders, he’s doing what he should be doing. But Republicans aren’t going to be embarrassed about not cooperating with Obama. It’s their political platform.
Who is that idiot talking about it damaging the relationship with Republicans? Is she high?
4.
My Truth Hurts
TV talking heads are so useless. Not to mention detrimental to our democracy.
5.
askew
Bernie strikes me a pretty naive. His policy views are good, but I think any presidential run by him will end up much like Kucinich’s, irrelevant.
I have come to the conclusion that we are stuck with the mediocre Hillary and we are going to have to hope that she can stumble over the finish line and win the general election. And hope that there aren’t any Bill scandals lurking to be outed in the general election.
6.
dp
Good grief, those hosts are horrible.
“Why doesn’t the president talk the Republicans into doing what they refuse to do? What’s wrong with him?”
@My Truth Hurts: Oh god I was having a case of the Mondays already, but now I am positively enraged. These two people are awful.
8.
Dcrefugee
Yeah, those two anchors couldn’t be bigger tools if they were in aisle 10 at Home Depot…
9.
julie
There’s something about those Cuomo brothers, too.
10.
beltane
Bernie is like this is real life as well. He regularly does town hall meetings throughout Vermont, and he is intimidated by no one. You would be shocked to see how many cranky old white people respond to an actual left-wing message when it is presented clearly and boldly.
11.
Tone In DC
I knew that most of CNN’s bobbleheads were worthless, but DAMN. These “hosts” give pod people a bad name.
12.
blueskies
I haven’t watched CNN for a long, long time. I’m a pretty cynical guy, but even I am impressed with how disingenuous their talking heads have become. I say that because I refuse to believe that they are actually as stupid as they appear to be. It MUST an act. Nobody could possibly be that stupid.
@blueskies: They are probably not stupid at all. They are merely doing the bidding of their employers. It’s hard to earn the big paychecks that support a lavish lifestyle by passing off one’s billionaire benefactors and their puppets in the GOP. If these assholes dared display any signs that they posses critical thinking skills, they would be living like John Cole and stressing about paying for repairs on their old Subarus. Integrity doesn’t bring home the bling.
15.
jc
And there’s something about CNN … ugg, detestable.
16.
Mike E
@SatanicPanic: You shoulda watched Leslie Stahl covering the Calif. aquifer crisis…serious issue, but her reporting was like repeated blasts from a clown’s horn.
17.
Uncle Ebeneezer
So if Republicans would just be ‘massaged’ more there would be a happy ending? IYKWIMAITYD
18.
Mike E
@jc: Yep. Now I have to find a brick and smash myself in the face…CNN suuuucks.
19.
Mike E
@blueskies: Right. Al Franken coined the phrase “Disinfotainer” to describe Radio Rusty but I think it applies to cable bobbleheads who know how to draw their considerable paychecks (hint: it’s careful script mgmt)
20.
Violet
@Tone In DC: Good Lord, look at the blonde woman’s sad face frown after she asks the first question. That’s body language someone uses with a two year old. She has no intention of taking Bernie Sanders seriously.
21.
beltane
The real problem is that only old people watch CNN and the rest of the traditional media, and old people are the only ones who vote in consistent numbers. There are two Americas in the way people receive information and form ideas. If this country is to be saved, the non-brainwashed by corporate propaganda portion of the population needs to get engaged somehow.
22.
GregB
Remember when last week or so, large numbers of the media meat-puppets were telling everyone that the Republicans will be forced to govern in a bi-partisan manner after winning the Senate because they said it would be in the best interest of the nation? Good times.
23.
c u n d gulag
Ok, where do I go to sign-up for his campaign?
24.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
As if I weren’t nervous enough about a possible job that seems to be slipping away after I thought I had it, there’s now an issue that might lead me to have to retract my statements that I’m going to be a published author. Over the weekend it came out that the guy who runs the publishing house the anthology is using sexually molested a girl about 35 years ago. The victim has started publicizing it to let the world know; in this case there was a prosecution at the time and he was convicted so it wasn’t exactly secret but it wasn’t well known in the local F/SF community.
On the one hand, I support her whole-heartedly. There’s no indication that the guy has done anything else hideous since then and he claims, with no evidence to contradict it, that he’s completely reformed himself but in some ways that doesn’t matter; the woman deserves to be heard. So I’m sympathetic and wish her the best . . .
. . . .but at the same time it’s thrown the publication of the anthology into question. The editor sent out an email offering to release any of the authors from their contracts if they don’t want to be associated with the publishing house. If more than a couple do so then the project will evaporate. This was just about the only house that was willing to do the book in the first place so there isn’t much option to go somewhere else.
I don’t know if I can take it if this falls through and I don’t get the job. I really fucking need something tangible to go my way. I’m battling depression already and if the world takes another big shit on me I don’t know what I’m going to do. I was so happy about being published and thinking that, for once, needing to know someone to have a chance at a job was going to work in my favor. To have it snatched away would be horrific.
25.
Mart
Why not vote for Bernie in the primaries? He is a message machine. No other Dem, but dozens of R’s can message like that. Maybe his style would catch on with other Dem’s. It could only help (see election two weeks ago). If he gets enough primary votes, maybe Hillary creeps a little to the left.
Fingers crossed that all — or something! — goes well with you.
27.
Just Some Fuckhead
@askew: I feel so bad for you that Obama can’t run again. How will you go on?
28.
Lolis
I will vote for Bernie in the primaries.
29.
catclub
@GregB: I think the “he’s poisoning the well” argument is not working. It should be laughed at: “You mean it will stop them from cooperating with Obama the same way they have wanted to for the past 6 years”? And there are people on air who are almost saying this.
Bernie was pretty close.
30.
Ed
@beltane: You would be shocked to see how many cranky old white people respond to an actual left-wing message when it is presented clearly and boldly.
You forgot to add “by another old white person”. Because if that same message is presented by someone who is *brown*, they run away from it like it is radioactive.
I am cranky and white, and getting older each day ( 50! ) So I think I might have found my second career.
31.
The Ancient Randonneur
I know it won’t happen but just imagine Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren on the same ticket. That would be quite a messaging machine. Both of them are great at articulating a message the average person can understand in much the same way Obama is good at it.
That was horrible. I was waiting for those hosts to heave a big sigh and roll their eyes. Mario Cuomo must be so embarrassed.
34.
mai naem mobile
Why are there so few non repub senators talking on these shows. There’s Manchin, Mccaskill, Angus Young and Gillibrand when she was selling her book. Where are the rest of them? Are they too fucking lazy to show up? Where s Leahy, Durbin, Schumer, Boxer etc. etc? Also, I would donate a nice chunk of change to the DNC or Emilys List if some retiring senator like Rockefeller would just completely go off on one of these anchors and/or GOPr -really calling them out on their dishonesty and disingenuousness. A clip that would go viral. An even bigger donation if they reach across the table and grab their tie or laptop or something.
35.
JGabriel
I love how Republicans don’t even have to show up to have their point of view advocated by CNN’s hosts.
Tell me again about a neutral media? I love fairy tales.
36.
KG
@askew: depends on if Sanders is the only challenger. with a wide field, his voice would likely get lost. but if it was an attempted coronation like 2000? that could get interesting, especially if there is someone willing to fund Sanders with a Super PAC.
Yes, because being disappointed that we are being saddled with a too old, mediocre, charisma free candidate means that I am obsessed with Obama. Or maybe I just think Hillary sucks? I thought she sucked since the 1990s and have seen nothing to change my opinion of her. I didn’t even know who Obama was back then.
38.
Archon
I’d support Bernie Sanders if he ran for President. He’s a fringe candidate but he’s much more articulate, charismatic, and genuine then other progressive populists. I think he would at least be able to move the conversation left in ways other candidates couldn’t.
I’d probably support Elizabeth Warren if she ran instead of Bernie but she is definitely gonna have to explain how and why she was a Republican into the mid 90’s. Her answer so far that she thought the GOP was “better for markets” was underwhelming to say the least.
I am sorry but even with just Sanders and Hillary, Sanders won’t do anything. He’s ancient, has that crazy hair and isn’t even a Democrat. Very few people are going to stick around to hear his views with that baggage. Yes, it is superficial, but that is reality. And he won’t be able to buy news coverage. The media will treat him as a joke and ignore him.
If the left wants a credible candidate to oppose Hillary and I am starting to think they have no interest in credible anything, they will either get Warren to run or rally around one of the other candidates likely to run (Patrick, O’Malley, Schwitzer, Webb).
I was on the ground in 2004 campaigning for Dean in Iowa and everyone I spoke with thought Kucinich was a joke. I don’t see Sanders doing much better.
I think only a younger candidate has much of a chance against Hillary. Hillary is old and out of touch and the anti-cool. A younger candidate can appeal to younger voters and casual voters who don’t spend hours debating policy. Unfortunately, the only younger candidate who is thinking of running is O’Malley and I have given up thinking that the left or the progressive media will pay any attention to him. He does get quite a bit of attention from the Hispanic media but that won’t help in Iowa or NH.
40.
samiam
If wr0ng w@y Cole likes him then he must have some serious character flaws.
I’d support Bernie Sanders if he ran for President. He’s a fringe candidate but he’s much more articulate, charismatic, and genuine then other progressive populists. I think he would at least be able to move the conversation left in ways other candidates couldn’t.
Bernie is actually a competent legislator who would rather get half a pie than no pie at all. That makes him a far more serious candidate than a backbench crank like Dennis Kucinich. I appreciate that he proudly owns the label Democratic Socialist label, and he articulates his positions in a way that doesn’t sound preachy or self-righteous. I welcome his presence in the Democratic primaries for 2016.
Agreed. That was a horrible segment that really could have been very well done by someone who actually had a brain.
ETA: OTOH, I loved Bob Simon’s piece on Pope Francis’ BFF. He actually asked some tough questions and, though he didn’t really get an answer to the one about ordaining women, it was pretty obvious that the guy was squirming. Not sure if he was squirming because it would mean bad PR or if he doesn’t really agree with the woman hater’s club at the Vatican but can’t say so.
44.
KG
@askew: i was just looking at the current roster of governors and senators, since that’s where most candidates (and all nominees) come from. can we just agree as a country to not have a president for four years? we can just rotate senators as president each week, flip between Republican and Democrat each week.
@askew: Did you seriously just describe Brian Schweitzer as a credible candidate the left could rally behind?
48.
Tommy
@rikyrah: Bernie is the man. The only people I know against sane immigration reform are people I see on TV. I often note my family came here in the 1860s from Scotland. I am an immigrant. Sure that might have been a long time again but I refuse to look down my nose and think I am superior to a recent immigrant. You want to be a productive citizen, come on in.
49.
Botsplainer
OT – got in two absolutely beautiful dives this morning, then lunch, then a nap. I have a night dive off a boat at 6, and plan on a dawn dive tomorrow AM.
Contrasting that, I got about 60 welting bites on my lower legs from the no-see-ums around the bar area from Saturday night, when I was too drunk to think about bug spray. I am trying some hokum product that may or may not be working and seems to consist of ammonia and baking soda. I’m toying with the notion of finding a store and getting vinegar – this itch is worse than the clap (I hear, honest).
Except Reagan ran on optimism and was 1000% the politician that Hilary is. She is mediocre. Reagan sucked as a president and due to his advanced age was out of it for most of his presidency, something we have to look forward to with Hillary. But, Reagan was a great politician and Hillary just isn’t. She’s mediocre on every level.
And polls in 2014 mean absolutely nothing.
As for Al Franken, he is nowhere near as liberal as Sanders. He’s my Senator and he’s been fine but nothing extraordinary as a Senator. He’s no Paul Wellstone that is for sure.
And Al would never run against Hillary.
51.
catclub
anybody else see this:
A couple of days ago Vox ran a story about a new Ipsos-MORI poll showing that Americans think the unemployment rate right now is an astonishing 32 percent—higher than during the Great Depression.
I think the poll somehow confused people into guessing how many of their friends would like a different job. Drum thinks it is a wild outlier, but does not have much idea why.
I can’t stand Schweitzer but he is more credible than Bernie Sanders who is ancient, weird and a socialist not a Democrat. Schweitzer would get airtime and could gain a little bit of traction in the primaries. But, the left will rally around Sanders because he is completely unelectable in every way. They don’t want to have to support someone electable, because then they might have to settle for less than purity.
That would be interesting as an experiment. Truthfully, outside of O’Malley or Patrick and possibly Gillibrand, I don’t see anyone worth getting excited about. And they either won’t or will get crushed under the Hillary is inevitable nonsense. Let’s hope she excites enough people to let her win the general election. But, I am expecting another Kerry like disappointment.
54.
mb
@julie: sucking bigtime seems to be a Cuomo family tradition.
Except Reagan ran on optimism and was 1000% the politician that Hilary is
In 1980, the economy contracted by over 5%. No politician could fail with that tailwind. There was also a third party guy who took more votes from Carter than Reagan.
@askew: I’m resigning myself to Clinton vs Bush (The One To End It All). That idea just depresses me to no end. I’d be surprised if turnout reached 40% in that election. I really just can’t think of anyone, anywhere on the political spectrum that makes me want to vote them rather than against the other guy, and I do actually have a “vote against” threshold where I’ll cop to the “not a dime’s worth of difference” and in Clinton vs Bush, well…
Except Reagan ran on optimism and was 1000% the politician that Hilary is
The economy contracted by about 5% in 1980. That is an incredible tailwind for the challenger.
(Do I have a post in moderation on this subject? Or did I lose it myself?)
58.
beth
@mb: I’m convinced both those Cuomo boys are just waiting until Dad dies to formally join the Republican party.
59.
Tommy
@askew: I don’t see how Hillary wins the general if the Republicans put anybody up that isn’t bat shit crazy. I don’t dislike Hillary. Not in the least. Her resume is maybe the best in the country. Impressive beyond words. But my liberal friends are not sending me videos of her like they did of Obama after his speech at the DNC. There are not front page posts here saying “Run Hilliary Run.” She doesn’t seem to excite many people, myself included.
60.
beth
@Tommy: Maybe you were spoiled by Obama. What candidate before him were you ever really excited about? Kerry? Dukakis? Gore?
61.
Paul in KY
@beltane: That’s why Allison Grimes effed up. She came across as craven & out only for herself when she played coy about who she voted for.
Whether it was for Obama or against Obama, she should have given a clear, truthful answer & defended it.
She made other eff ups & probably would not have won, if she’d run a perfect campaign, but she stepped on her metaphorical dick there, IMO.
@Archon: I don’t care what her answer is & would vote for her regardless. Not a positive though that she was a Republican. Probably has to do with the change she was making.
65.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: Who the fuck cares about “excited”? Obama was the first exciting candidate since Kennedy. _Maybe_ squeeze Reagan in there, fine. No one was excited about Bush or Kerry or Romney or McCain or Bush or Gore or Dukakis or Clinton (he became a star after getting elected) or Carter or Ford or Nixon or McGovern or Johnson. Exciting is overrated. You don’t need 100% excitement. You need 51% excitement from a large amount of people.
ETA: Or, what beth said.
66.
Paul in KY
@askew: If Sen. Sanders was serious about a bid, he would have to run as a Democrat.
I don’t see how Hillary wins the general if the Republicans put anybody up that isn’t bat shit crazy. I don’t dislike Hillary.
1. Who among the GOP is NOT bat-shit crazy.
2. I suspect that there may be some white women who will vote en masse for Hillary. Just a guess.
First woman President is a big deal. Kind of like first black President.
68.
lamh36
OT, but apparently Gov Nixon has just declared a state of emergency in Missouri…
@ABC 1m1 minute ago
Mo. governor declares State of Emergency, activates Nat’l Guard in preparation for grand jury decision in Ferguson shooting – @JamesHillABC
Usual caveat that some seem to always ask for…maybe Wilson will be indicted, but yeah…I’ve never believed it.
69.
Paul in KY
@KG: Fuck no. What happens when it comes up with Sen. Cruz as President?!
Please put down the crack pipe.
70.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Tommy: I have some PUMA-ish acquaintances in what we used to call meatspace, a couple of whom are all in for Hillary, others who will vote for the D, but might be a bit more inclined to donate or volunteer for HRC. I don’t know how widespread those feelings are, but I do have a vague, data-less sense that the Clinton camp is overconfident.
I think one to watch on the other side is Cory Gardner, who got elected by basically aping George W Bush’s 2000 campaign. “Me, extreme? What record? Don’t I seem like a nice fella?” and hasn’t exhibited any of the caricatural stupidity that I still, after all these years, can’t quite believe didn’t sink the Shrub. Maybe he won’t be ready for ’16, but I think he’s a more polished version of Paul Ryan.
71.
Paul in KY
@askew: Schweitzer is more electable than Bernie, but he’s to the right of Hillary. It would be like electing a Mitt, with more charisma.
72.
Keith G
@TommyLike it or not, in 2008 Obama was an extraordinary new, shiny thing. The historical dimensions of his candidacy gave an emotional content to that election that we are not likely to see repeated for a while. The fact the any candidate this time around can’t come close to matching that buzz is rather expected.
And actually, I am a bit burned out by candidates with super buzz.
73.
Paul in KY
@catclub: I think Rand Paul would be their strongest candidate, but I can’t see him getting thru the primaries (against Jeb, say).
74.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: Clinton (he became a star after getting elected)
I would argue he became a star after he left office, if not (at least among Ds) after he got impeached. I think Bubba’s star power, such as it is, comes from being the (white) guy who was president before everything went to hell, from Iraq to Wall St.
I have come to the conclusion that we are stuck with the mediocre Hillary and we are going to have to hope that she can stumble over the finish line and win the general election.
I was on the ground in 2004 campaigning for Dean in Iowa
I was asking about this before. Why not another Dean run? He doesn’t seem busy doing anything else. If the point is to be combative and populist and energizing, he kind of invented that, at least the 21st-century version of it…
80.
beltane
@C.V. Danes: Funny, that’s the ticket my mother is hoping for. Maybe it will get her kicked out of the Older White Lady club, but my mother considers Hillary to be an opportunistic hack.
81.
dance around in your bones
It’s not that movie Weekend at Bernie’s. is it?
Haha – just kidding. I love Bernie Sanders, he tells the truth – which is a rare thing nowadays for a politician.
@Keith G: Yes and I agree with most of the other comments to my comment. We might never see another 2008 in my lifetime. Excitement can also be overrated. I think to going to see him speak late in the campaign. Under the Arch in St. Louis got me thinking this should happen in every campaign.
Click the link for the pic, then click it to enlarge. The estimates range to about 100,000 people. I was late getting there. Had seen the pics of massive crowds at campaign events but getting off the rail line to see him speak for the first time not in his senate race I almost fell to my knees in tears.
Remember when last week or so, large numbers of the media meat-puppets were telling everyone that the Republicans will be forced to govern in a bi-partisan manner after winning the Senate because they said it would be in the best interest of the nation?
ha. haha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Whew!
Good laugh!
85.
beltane
@Paul in KY: We nearly got a Republican governor in Vermont because, among other things, the incumbent Democrat took a gratuitous dump on the teachers’ union right before the election. It didn’t win a single Republican vote but it did contribute to record low turnout. For whatever reason, too many Democratic politicians seem to have nothing but contempt for Democratic base voters.
Yeah, good point. Those guys made some of the best presidents we’ve ever had.
88.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: I went to a massive rally in Philadelphia in 2004. For John Kerry. Bill Clinton had just gotten out of the hospital and was hitting the campaign trail for the first time. And it’s not like John Kerry was a megawatt star. We were excited because the other guy was so horrible. That was enough.
I think Bubba’s star power, such as it is, comes from being the (white) guy who was president before everything went to hell, from Iraq to Wall St.
It was more than that. Bill was the first president from the postwar baby boom. That was more important than many here seem to recall. He followed two old white guys who were shockingly isolated from the society and culture of the population they were governed. His ability to speak directly to his fellow citizens (before and after the election) in a caring, non-stilted manner was a radical departure form the presidential norm.
His star power had been a factor even before 1992.
91.
FlipYrWhig
@replicnt6: Good point. Look at all those exciting, galvanizing Republicans we’ve had to contend with, like Ronald Reagan, a END TRANSMISSION
Yeah, good point. Those guys made some of the best presidents we’ve ever had.
They did, but you’d have to cross the Fringe bridge to our companion universe in order to experience it.
94.
replicnt6
@FlipYrWhig: We were excited because the other guy was so horrible. That was enough.
Enough for us. But apparently not enough to win an election.
95.
Tommy
@FlipYrWhig: I am very open to being told I am wrong. I try not to be wrong but if I am don’t mind if told so (most times I am not). With that said did Kerry ever have 100,000 at a campaign event? Heck 50,000. 25,000.
I like him too, if only because he managed to sit through that whole thing without leaping across the desk and throttling both of those idiots.
Oy vey.
97.
dance around in your bones
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Aw, jeez JMN – I just MY dream job (hahahahah withe a crazy lady and her little dog FOO!!)
…so I hear ya, and I just want you to hang in their and perhaps another opportunity will come up? One never knows. I’m in a much better place than the $4 million mansion I was was living in………….
I have a great land lady now, and a great roommate who was kind enough to fuck me even though he’s the age of my daughter……ok, enough of that. I just want to say that you never know WHAT’S gonna happen!!!!
It’s like the”:Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know WHAT you’re gonna get!”
.
I am among the group of people who feel that that energy could/should have been managed, preserved, and put to other uses. The fact that it was allowed to flow away into the ether without such an attempt may go down as one of the silliest moves in American politics in this young century.
100.
Paul in KY
@beltane: Boy do I hear you there! Be proud to be a Democrat & fighting for our core principles. Surely any of our candidates need to come across as how glad they are that they are a Democrat, and not a toady-for-the-rich Republican.
i was just looking at the current roster of governors and senators, since that’s where most candidates (and all nominees) come from. can we just agree as a country to not have a president for four years? we can just rotate senators as president each week, flip between Republican and Democrat each week.
The wish of Democrats that gets them in trouble: Thinking that you get to choose from the best people who could be president/governor/senator/representative if you just wish hard enough. You get to choose from those that run for the office.
105.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: Huge, huge crowd in Philly. Blocks upon blocks full of people. Estimated by NYT at 80,000. Which is to say that crowd size does not equal excitement which does not equal victory.
106.
Amir Khalid
@dance around in your bones:
I find myself thinking somewhat uncomfortably about that recent exchange we had regarding, um, hair.
I don’t get the love for Biden and the hate for Hillary. This may not apply to you per se, but it is something I’ve seen on the internets.
Biden also voted for the AUMF, back in 2002.
He’s very much cut from the same political cloth as Hillary and Bill, in my opinion.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but I do not see what reason people have to differentiate between Biden and Hillary, with regards to relative enthusiasm or lack thereof for either candidate.
The AUMF vote / Iraq War stance, from back in 2002, was the deciding factor between how voters viewed Hillary versus Obama, because other than that Hillary was actually to the left of Obama on gay marriage and gun control, in that primary six years ago.
108.
FlipYrWhig
@Paul in KY: @Keith G: I think the financial crisis killed it. Sunny optimism went down like a sack of cement, and everything went into coping mode instead of movement-building.
I think so, but at some point the universe has to agree or it doesn’t really matter.
110.
dance around in your bones
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Aw, jeez JMN – I just lost MY dream job (hahahahah with a crazy lady and her little dog FOO!!)
…so I hear ya, and I just want you to hang in there and perhaps another opportunity will come up? One never knows. I’m in a much better place than the $4 million mansion I was was living in………….
I have a great land lady now, and a great roommate who was kind enough to fuck me even though he’s the age of my daughter……ok, enough of that. I just want to say that you never know WHAT’S gonna happen!!!!
It’s like the”:Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know WHAT you’re gonna get!”
Speaking as someone who was on a job search while in the midst of a depression, you need to be very, very careful not to sabotage yourself right now, because your brain is going to try and trick you into doing it. Before you communicate with the potential job or the publishing house, run what you want to say past your therapist or a friend/family member or, heck, us.
Right now, your brain and thought patterns are your enemy, so check them with an objective person before you take any action.
One of the big worries about Hillary. She and her husband have had no problems attacking their own base in the past. That just doesn’t work now as we saw with the 2014 election. It just depresses our base.
113.
FlipYrWhig
@askew: Do you mean “base” or do you mean “liberals”? Because they’re not the same thing. A lot of grassroots Democrats love Bill and Hillary Clinton and are not liberals. Is that the base or isn’t it? (I kinda wish people would drop the whole “base” idea, because it’s started to mean “people like me,” but I suppose that ship sailed long ago.)
114.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: the financial crisis, and just plain old American politics. Obama ran into Mitch McConnell just like Clinton ran into Daniel Patrick Moynihan. A lot of other details and differences in demographics and different bills and yadda yadda, but what old man Cuomo, who had the good sense to remain a hypothetical president, said remains true: we campaign in poetry and govern in prose.
115.
Paul in KY
@FlipYrWhig: Excellent point there. Could have turned that optimism & energy against the bastards that made it happen…but that would be icky populism.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but I do not see what reason people have to differentiate between Biden and Hillary, with regards to relative enthusiasm or lack thereof for either candidate.
I think that people still view Hillary as being very much inside DLC circles with the Mark Penns and Leon Panettas of the world — the same circles that have been losing elections for us since 2000 (maybe even 1994). Since Biden has been Obama’s VP, I think people are assuming that he’ll be willing to use the Obama people for his campaign rather than the Clinton apparatchiks.
I don’t think that people view their policies as being all that different, but that they would run their campaigns differently.
117.
Trollhattan
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Well that just stinks. Been there with the job thing, but not the rapidly dissolving publisher thing.
BTW, had you mentioned previously your publisher was House of Cosby?
Hanging in, espeically by one’s fingernails, is no fun but hang in you must!
@Trollhattan: Thank goodness, no “global warming”, I can fire up my backyard “diesel pit” to warm the house up again. Fuckin’ EPA made me turn it off a few years back, something about it killing a bunch of kids or cats or some bureaucratic bullshit like that.
119.
Trollhattan
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Damn straight, Skippy, Imma frack the holy hell outta mah backyard and take the coal-fired lead smelter out of storage.
I think her resume is fine on paper, but when you start talking about what’s she’s actually done in office, then we have some issues. I try to imagine myself talking to voters about supporting Hillary and I can’t find any reason to support her. This is what I have:
1. She’s held office a long time.
2. She knows a lot of the power players.
3. She’s been near leaders who have accomplished incredible things.
4. She’s not a Republican.
That isn’t going to excite anyone.
With Obama in 2008, I could talk about how much he accomplished in his first 3 years in the Senate. Getting 3 bills passed in such a short time for a freshman is pretty unheard of. I could talk about how he managed the impossible compromise between police, ACLU and victims groups about videotaping interrogations while in the IL State Senate. I could talk about his vision for the country and how he made the right calls on the Iraq War and stood up when so many Dems caved.
I can make a great argument for why we should support O’Malley. But, I can’t do it with Hillary. She just hasn’t done much of anything on her own in her career. I think it is sad that she has so little to show for all her years in office and it makes me depressed to think that is the best we can offer.
121.
Tommy
@FlipYrWhig: Well good thing we got a “liberal” media. From the intro of your link about Bill Clinton:
He looked a little gaunt, his crisp navy suit hanging on a faded frame. He seemed slightly out of breath as he spoke and he tipped back a water bottle as soon as he left the lectern. But he nibbled his lip and bobbed his head with that familiar electricity in his eye, mouthing “thank you” to an enormous and adoring crowd that packed downtown streets here Monday at lunchtime.
…so I hear ya, and I just want you to hang in there and perhaps another opportunity will come up? One never knows. I’m in a much better place than the $4 million mansion I was was living in………….
I have a great land lady now, and a great roommate who was kind enough to fuck me even though he’s the age of my daughter……OK, enough of that. I just want to say that you never know WHAT’S gonna happen!!!!
It’s like the “Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know WHAT you’re gonna get!”
Hang in there – you are worthy!!
Glad to hear things are looking up. Party on (you, Bernie, Liz and the rest of us).
123.
FlipYrWhig
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think politics would have taken its toll, sure, but if 2008-now was prosperous rather than bleak, I think Obama’s approval would have stayed higher among indies and some Republicans, and Republican sabotage would have been more obviously sadistic. My pet theory is that the embattled white working class that never liked Obama all that much has been much quicker to turn on him because times have been tough and they’ve been that much more susceptible to anti-“welfare” racist and quasi-racist demagoguery. IOW, the good feeling from the symbolism of the First Black President was dissipated by the feeling that it was a war of all against all for scarce resources and all the hope was going to be fed back to Those People not Us. Maybe that’s whitesplaining Obama-era racism, but I think there’s something to it: the racist paranoia has been aggravated by white economic insecurity. White security means less racism. Not NO racism; hardly. But less. YMMV.
124.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: To be fair, he WAS fresh offa heart surgery.
I don’t see how Hillary wins the general if the Republicans put anybody up that isn’t bat shit crazy.
I wouldn’t go quite that far, but the prevailing assumption that the presidency is hers if she wants it is absurd. She is old, haughty, testy, and a poor campaigner. She can be beaten. I don’t think it’s that unlikely that the Democrats regain the Senate and lose the presidency in 2016.
Her resume is maybe the best in the country. Impressive beyond words.
You lost me there. Her resume includes plenty of nepotism, loser stink, doing nothing, and failing. She is certainly the best chance of victory for the Democrats, but let’s not kid ourselves that her resume won’t be savaged during the campaign.
126.
FlipYrWhig
@FlipYrWhig: Whoops, for “turn on him” read “give up on him.”
127.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): It’s not up to me to deal with the publisher; all I did was let the editor, who is in charge of administrating the project, that I was willing to go ahead and continue with the publisher. After that it’s completely out of my hands. And I interviewed with the prospective employer a week and a half before all of this (on Thursday the 6th); it’s the fact that they said they’d make a decision within a week and I haven’t heard from them that has me pessimistic about it.
@Trollhattan: I didn’t know anything about it until I got the email from the editor this morning.
128.
dance around in your bones
@Botsplainer: Dude. That sucks. Don’t get drunk before you apply the anti-bug shit,
I know you have had other things on your mind lately….hope it works out for you :)
I mean the base – teachers, unions, minorities, young women, college-educated professionals. That’s our base. And the Clintons have loved nothing more than shitting on them over and over again.
And the key is that the base LOVES Bill Clinton. I don’t think they LOVE Hillary. She has great approval ratings but those will fall once she is back on the trail. The problem is that Hillary just isn’t the politician her husband is. She just isn’t going to excite the base in the same way. Yes, some older women are excited by her, but I don’t think we get anywhere near the excitement that we saw with Obama. It wasn’t just AAs who were excited by him. It was young voters, women, and minorities. He ran on hope and optimism and a new vision for the country. Hillary just doesn’t have that vision thing. She is much more along the lines of Kerry, but with fewer accomplishments. Hillary is going to have to count on being better than the alternative to win. Against a more accomplished GOP governor who isn’t ancient and has personal charisma and vision (even it if is an evil vision), I don’t know how that turns out for us.
130.
skerry
Bernie Sanders will be on the Colbert Report tonight.
ETA: I just saw that Gov Nixon has declared a state of emergency in Missouri and has authorized the National Guard to “help” police.
131.
Trollhattan
@FlipYrWhig:
If Big Dog never does another thing to follow up his 2012 DNC speech his legacy is intact on my ledger.
it’s the fact that they said they’d make a decision within a week and I haven’t heard from them that has me pessimistic about it.
So now what you need to do is find an objective person who can help you craft an email or phone call to gently ask what’s going on. Because your brain is trying to sabotage you, it’s telling you that there’s no point in following up and you should just let it fade. Or, alternatively, your brain is telling you to call them up and scream at them for misleading you.
A few extra days is not that big a deal, unless you’re depressed and your brain is trying to sabotage you. So have an objective person help you figure out what to say and then say it.
There is a seriously NSFW ad on that page. Luckily, my computer faces away from my co-workers.
137.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: He doesn’t strike me as naive at all in that interview.
I’ve had a lot of issues with Saint Bernie in the past. His lefty-Dem fans tend to be as delusional as Ronulans registered Independent. But I like what he’s selling today. More, please.
Just the awkwardness between him and the corporate press is enough to make this seem worth it. The corporate press is mixed between Obama fans, Obama haters, and people who think Obama spurned them and must be taken down. It seems like the corporate press has nothing but contempt for Sanders … and he is clearly showing himself not to be a nutjob like Kucinich.
Yeah. I’m thinking about supporting him in the primary. Unless we get a really good elected DEMOCRAT in the ring. So far they’re all afraid to cross Hilary and her people. Because I like a lot of the DEMOCRATS waiting out there in the wings. But if they can’t do it, well the difference between Bernie and Hilary couldn’t be more stark.
1. She’s held office a long time.
2. She knows a lot of the power players.
3. She’s been near leaders who have accomplished incredible things.
4. She’s not a Republican.
That isn’t going to excite anyone.
Sounds like George Bush, 1988.
The outlier is Gore losing in 2000.
139.
Another Holocene Human
@beltane: Barney Frank used to be a master of that too, although he’s retired now, and Al Franken kills it extemporaneously as well.
Could have turned that optimism & energy against the bastards that made it happen…but that would be icky populism.
Commenters above cite the crisis as letting the air out of the balloon of optimism, but I see it as the exact type of condition to keep energy levels up, if such energy is properly nurtured.
Really? Why? I think Bill’s legacy can be summed up by the pile of shit he left for Obama to clean up – OBL, DADT, DOMA, repeal of Glass-Steagall, etc. Just think what Obama could have done without Bill’s poor policy decisions weighing him down.
While the media ate up Bill’s speech and tried to give Obama’s re-election win to Bill, the Obama camp said that polling was consistent from the summer on and that nothing really moved the numbers. Not the Great White Hope Bill’s speech, not Obama choking during the debate, not Obama schooling Romney in the other two debates. Nothing really moved the numbers. They were pretty much baked in.But, that doesn’t change the narrative that the Bill won Obama’s re-election for him.
We could have a conversation about why it is that that the media needs to give Obama’s victories to the nearest white person, but we all know why.
Good Lord, look at the blonde woman’s sad face frown after she asks the first question. That’s body language someone uses with a two year old. She has no intention of taking Bernie Sanders seriously.
Her first few volleys sounded like a FOX anchor “just asking questions” during the rant portion of their broadcast (Megyn Kelly is who I’m thinking of primarily). Heck, just look at Bernie’s grimace before they even get started. He knows what the game is here.
I’m actually really impressed that he’s wading through this bullshit. He could easily sit on his laurels for the rest of his life.
144.
dance around in your bones
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I’m worrying that I’m talking about it too fucking much.
Bush was running against Dukakis who had negative charisma and no political skills. Hillary is damn close to Dukakis level. If they put up someone who excites their base, while ours is stuck with Hillary, it’s going to be a problem.
And while Gore won, it was damn close because he chose to run away from Clinton which is exactly what Hillary is poised to do with Obama.
146.
dance around in your bones
@Amir Khalid: Andale pues!! (That means “Get on with it!” in Spanish)
I don’t think either one of us had any issues about ….um…hair.More like enjoyment……
Who are the Obama lovers in the press? He’s gotten over 80% negative press coverage since 2011. The only person I can think of that loves Obama is Joy Ann Reid and her entire show is filled with people who disagree with her and think Obama sucks for this reason or that reason.
148.
Omnes Omnibus
@askew: Just off hand, you know that the Clinton administration was seriously going after OBL and that DADT was a step forward at the time, right?
149.
Another Holocene Human
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): I know this agony. My wife got published by an online-mostly house and has regretted not pitching to another one in the same space that seems to be better run. Her former editor moved on to another opportunity so she got passed to another editor that didn’t “get” the passing woman character and so punted her to the clinically depressed editor and it looks like there’s no way she’s getting published by the target date which is basically hell for a compulsive person like herself. She does all the publicity, a lot of the selling, but the publisher is not transparent about stuff like sales/pricing/profit so for one thing she can’t tell if her Facebook promos work or not and for another thing she always has this vague fear that the owners are embezzling from the authors because their communications are so sketchy.
It’s a jungle out there … I’m really sorry all of this happened. Writing is such a self-exposure, it’s so contrary to grit and persistence since it’s your soul on the line. Obviously somebody saw the value in it so you’ve got that going for you. Hoping your job works out.
And I interviewed with the prospective employer a week and a half before all of this (on Thursday the 6th); it’s the fact that they said they’d make a decision within a week and I haven’t heard from them that has me pessimistic about it.
This means nothing. Maybe they couldn’t get other candidates in or interviews in a timely fashion. Maybe the person who has to okay your hire is on vacation. Maybe someone had a baby or family emergency. Maybe they liked you so much that they’re figuring out how to rearrange things so they can offer you a better position or more money. Hiring decisions get delayed all the time.
Mnemosyne has good advice. Following up is good but if you’re depressed make sure you run it by someone for another opinion so your brain doesn’t sabotage you.
I think TPM has this right. Obama is going to do the executive order if only to force the entire GOP to campaign on overturning it in 2016. And he’ll roll out a bunch of other executive orders to have the same effect.
153.
Tommy
@Keith G: Huey Long. I think if you want to talk populism you need to learn about him. Not follow, but learn. At the start to the book on him the author tells a story Huey used to tell on the stump (most times an actual stump of a tree). That on Sunday he’d go to church with his Catholic grandparents then take a horse and buggy to a Baptists church. The author goes on to note that Huey wasn’t a Catholic nor did this grandparents own a horse.
I am not saying we go here but this is what the Republicans do. And they do it well.
154.
gvg
Bill Clinton stirred up plenty of excitement when campaigning the first time. things were mostly OK under him in spite of the republicans.
Hillary is not as good.
It is reported that a good number of older women really want her to be president and will be bitter if someone beats her. A shame but people are going to vote for whomever seems like the best choice at the time and I am not the only woman who wants a woman president but really hopes it’s someone else. I will even vote for a white male if I think he has a better sense of my issues, and this is entirely possible. I hate Hillary’s hawkishness and don’t think she is as perceptive or even tempered as I need.
All the republicans are nuts. The party itself is also nuts so anyone still wearing that label has chosen to dance to that tune.
I will wait and see about the choices. I don’t like the risk of an older person and Hillary, Bernie, and Biden all have that against them.
The democratic party seems to be coming up with sane possible choices even if I can see flaws in all of them as opposed to the republicans. Odds are decent.
Hi, this is Another Holocene Human’s wife. They said you needed some cheering up, and first of all I want to wish you luck with the job thing because yikes. Seriously, all the luck in the world. Now, about the writing thing — there are other houses out there. Shitty things like that have happened to at least two authors I know within the past year. I know it sucks but if you pout for a couple of weeks and then get back on the horse you can probably find another place to put it. They’re mostly LGBTq+ focused, but if you can even make one of the characters asexual, that’ll count and “Read Vitality” (google them) will pay five cents a word. Max 5,000 words. Very much sci-fi/fantasy encouraged.
er
anyway just keep poking at it. Believe me, making the decision to pull out of something involved with an abuser is a good call because if you don’t, years later you’ll get put on someone’s list of “people we’re avoiding because they did this one questionable thing years ago” and you’ll wish you’d made a different call
156.
dance around in your bones
@Mnemosyne: Mnem – AdBlockPlus!!! If you are allowed to install it at work?
Plus – JMN!!!! Listen to Mnemosyne! Our minds can really kill our dreams if we let it….
i was just looking at the current roster of governors and senators, since that’s where most candidates (and all nominees) come from.
Dubya is the only sitting Republican governor or senator to be elected President since Warren Harding in 1921. Hoover, Eisenhower and Pa Bush were neither, and Reagan and Nixon had been out of office for more than 4 years when they got elected.
In the same time period, FDR, JFK, WJC and BHO were sitting Senators or Governors during the election, and Carter had been out of office for 2 years.
158.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: I’m with you there. I thought Hilary sucked since the whole censor-everything push when she jumped on board Tipper’s fail train. Nothing has really changed my opinion of her since. If anything, I’ve come to somewhat reconsider my support of her at State because while she was pushing for a lot of stuff I care about she also helped make sure Honduras is more of a clusterfuck and apparently ran up against Obama advocating dumb shit in the ME. Kerry sucks but OTOH it’s not really his fault all of Bush and Rumsfeld’s chickens decided to come home to roost at once.
Hilary sucks. More and better Democrats, please.
159.
Tommy
@Tommy: Whoops I left something out of my comment. Long told people what they wanted to hear. That then lead into my statement:
I am not saying we go here but this is what the Republicans do. And they do it well.
160.
Another Holocene Human
Kerry seriously, though, sucks at State just like he sucked as a Presidential candidate. His political instincts are for shit. Hope you’re happy, Republi-traitors. We coulda had Susan Rice.
Draft Madeleine Albright.
161.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Violet: I was already planning on calling them tomorrow.
He’s already surpassed Hillary’s accomplishments at State with the big China deal, getting countries onboard to fight ISIS and the finishing touches on the Iran Nuclear Deal. The media may not fawn all over him, but he’s been doing a remarkable job at State.
I don’t see Sanders as a detriment. He embodies the true Big Tent ideal of a Dem Party that stands for people over profits, and he seems persistently optimistic about this inclusivity enough to not try and burn the whole thing down (coughNADERcough)..even as an independent Socialist. We need pols like him, no matter how daunting national office barriers are that stand in his way.
Hillary didn’t do much of anything at State besides make a mess of Honduras, do a feel-good tour to repair relations and be against every one of Obama’s good ideas on FP – she wanted boots on the ground in Libya and Syria. She wanted to arm Syrians. She was against OBL raid, etc. She has bad foreign policy instincts.
I didn’t realize she was onboard with Tipper’s nonsense in the 1990s. That hurt Gore with young voters without a doubt.
165.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@dance around in your bones: My mind hasn’t killed my dreams. Eight years of every job application I submit getting turned down has done that. Having my wife walk out on me four months after I had a nervous breakdown has done that to me.
Those things aren’t in my mind.
166.
catclub
@Mike E: The most interesting part to me was where he was assessing the possibility of running against the billionaires and bankers without a source of money, and that it may be simply impossible.
I did hear that right, didn’t I?
167.
Julie
@Tommy: 50k in Portland in 2004. Obama hit 72k in the same space in 2008. And Biden only had about 1,000 people at his last Portland visit (I think by design? It was a smaller, indoor gathering), but he closed down half of NE Portland once people found out he (and his aviator glasses) were having ice cream at Salt & Straw. Make of that what you will. ;)
My husband – who died 3 years ago, and who I had been with since I was 15 and he was 19….so, like a long time……..that was fucking rough.Then I broke my hip. Then I fractured it again, and am going to have a total hip replacement surgery in about a month……sometimes life just fucking sucks..
But all we can do is keep on keeping on. There have been times when I felt like filling my pockets with stones like Virginia Woolf and just wading into the ocean (I think she wade into a river:) but – ya know? New things can happen!
HA HA HA – did you hear the stupid comment at end – “I don’t believe that Vermont accent will be popular accross the country.”
Ho lee sheet. Bernie has an amazing Brooklyn accent!!!
Bernie Sanders was born on September 8, 1941, in Brooklyn, New York, the son of Polish Jewish immigrants, he graduated from HS there and went to Brooklyn college and then Chicago.
I don’t know how widespread those feelings are, but I do have a vague, data-less sense that the Clinton camp is overconfident.
They are definitely overconfident. Way far out polls that trade on name recognition long before the election mean nothing. Plenty of people have won those polls and gone down in the general. Barack Obama wasn’t handed the Presidency–he fought for it. He fought for every single vote. And muscling other Dems into compliance is NOT the same thing as winning the general. It’s akin to Chris Christie’s Jersey shenanigans, like yeah, he can be the big outlaw whale into the little salty pond but outside of his bubble he’s just some loudmouth asshole who turned off the wrong exit on the Turnpike.
172.
Another Holocene Human
@Paul in KY: How is a loud, proud Obama hater “electable” among Dem primary voters in any state that the Dems are not going to lose and lose big in the general?
He’s very much cut from the same political cloth as Hillary and Bill, in my opinion.
There’s more informing my opinion of each of them than voting records.
Not that I’m totally in love with Biden but he ain’t no Hilary Clinton.
Also, I get the feeling that Biden would happily serve for one term and retire, by which time the Dems ought to have some younger viable candidates. And there would be a lot of continuity between administrations which would make his presidency more effective. Biden is not a terrible choice.
I could care less how he voted when he was D-CreditCardsylvania.
sorry if this was already asked and answered, but has anybody figured out how Canadian tar sands will help wean the US off of foreign oil?
175.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@DWD: Canadian oil destined for the Asian market. Obama made this point today.
176.
Another Holocene Human
@FlipYrWhig: If by “base” you mean the people who work campaigns, I think about 1/3 at least of the base is real excited about her because they think she’s the everlasting GOPcrusher. But a lot of other people are really fretting. She’s no Cuomo the lesser, I mean he would cause widespread ragequitting. Right now everybody loves to hate “banksters” which means Booker has zero chance but Clinton doesn’t seem as tainted.
Obama didn’t win with the existing base so much as picking up a lot of sideliners. Now some of it was a one-time deal because they fell in love with the idea of the campaign and stroked out when the reality of governance hit but he genuinely got a lot of people into politics who’ve stayed engaged to one degree or another.
You need base not to hate you because they won’t do GOTV. See: Alex Sink. They say it’s because she was a banker but more it was the way she muscled into the primary and just offended people. She angered the locals. There’s all there is to that. And all the money in the world (she drained labor dry) couldn’t save her.
So those saying that Hilary could depress the base? She certainly could. She has a history of ill-conceived and arrogant comments.
And then there’s the sideliners. Dems absolutely cannot win without them. See: 2010 2014. They’re more important than ever because the GOP has been sewing up the old cranky white vote. Mixture of demographics (New Dealers dying, Silent Gen emerging on top) and constant propaganda and, well, people suck. Appealing to racism gets votes. You need to get Millennials and GenXers to get motivated to vote, you need to offer something to Latin@s, and the populist stuff does seem to work on the “lunchpailers” Hilary was so wistful about in 2008. Romney running his mouth hurt him in 2012. And Romney being Romney. That election was way too fucking close.
Hilary’s moment has passed and she doesn’t realize it because her biggest fans were elderly crawl over broken glass voters and they’ve died off and have been replaced with racial resentment, IGMFY to the Nth Degree voters. I’ve not seen the slightest indication that Hilary knows how to fight for votes and find votes. She or whoever the nominee is will have to motivate younger Boomers, GenXers, and Millennials to vote, all of whom stayed home bigtime this year. Well, Hilary has a lot of baggage with younger Boomers and especially GenXers. Millennials only know her as SoS … though she hasn’t done a damn thing to court them, so …
I don’t think that people view their policies as being all that different, but that they would run their campaigns differently.
It’s also about the WH and executive agencies, who do you owe. Obama had to pay off some debts early on and we had to endure some shitheads but most of them are gone now. Clinton will owe a lot of loathesome people, also, just look at her husband’s admin, his people were worse by 1998 than they were in 1994 … a lot worse. All the good people had run away.
Part of it’s just … Obama. But I think there’s a very good chance that Biden keeps a lot of the same people around … and that’s a good thing.
White security means less racism. Not NO racism; hardly. But less. YMMV.
That’s pretty trivially true. But I don’t think it’s really the recession but the long con, the intergenerational loss of jobs, economic status, security. The spot economy is back.
The hunt for someone to blame (not Reagan!) has been going on since 1980.
179.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: This just occurred to me: Biden has shown willingness to be where younger people are at and not stuck in the past. Full throated support of women. His “gaffe” on same-sex marriage. But the last time Hilary was in public she was doing some sort of 1990s nostalgia tour. That’s what she’s got.
When you’ve lost older voters and need to motivate younger and middle-aged people to vote you need to make it clear you’re not going to be stuck somewhere in the past because they are living in the present and the future and the younger they are, the more stressed they are about that future.
180.
Another Holocene Human
@skerry: Jay Nixon grasping for the legacy of “Bull” Connor. What a motherfucker.
181.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: What, politics don’t matter, askew? Way to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Were you there in the 1990s? Clinton and DADT was like Obama and Gitmo, neither of them wanted what happened but it turned out the rest of the country was definitely NOT where the campaign volunteers and whipped up minority group voters at campaign rallies were up. (In Clinton’s case he had HUGE backing by GLBT voters, which was really unprecedented.)
…and I wouldn’t give Biff or Brad or whatever’dafuck that haircut’s name is the benefit of the doubt on the ‘Vermont’ thing. It was the ‘accent’ point that he was stressing.
“Bernie, you’re just too … how should I say it? … ‘Ethnic’ … do you know what I mean?”
183.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: Maybe it’s the OBot speaking but I kind of credit Obama for that stuff. I guess it’s good he’s not actively fighting Obama within the WH. But he’s been visible in Israel/Palestine stuff and just seems naive and doing more harm than good. IDK. He has been pretty good on the ISIS stuff and hasn’t said anything too stupid recently. Like he’s a smart guy and dedicated but I think his political instincts are for shit. Guess I shouldn’t talk because I protest-voted against him in the primary, 2002 maybe? You know half the reason he was a Senator was that he had an Irish name when that mattered and he’s not even Irish. By the time that came out nobody cared but this is not a guy who’s had to win uphill campaigns. I would assume without knowing anything about her that Heidi Heitkamp knows more about politicianing than J Kerry does.
184.
Another Holocene Human
@FlipYrWhig: Not really, at the time it felt like she was bandwagoning. Not to mention, the fact that she went after video games is actually worse politically today than Tipper’s sticker regime for naughty CDs.
I think that Hilary Clinton easily is obscured in terms of tech world /nerdspace boogeymen by the other evil Hilary, the one who was a lawyer for RIAA.
185.
Kay
I love Bernie Sanders. I heard him on the radio during the VA fake-crisis and he kept saying “they want to PRIVATIZE!” which is true but no one else would say it. He has to talk really fast before they cut him off. I sometimes worry he’ll pass out if he doesn’t take a gulp of air between sentences.
In other news, Ohio Democrats are doing a “listening tour” to find out what they should be saying/doing.
Please join Representative Marcy Kaptur and ODCCA on the first stop of our Ohio
Listening Tour. Saturday, November 22nd at The Plumbers and Pipefitters Local 50 from noon to 2pm. The hall is located at 7570 Caple Blvd, Northwood Ohio, 43616. Please bring your ideas
Manchin calls himself a Democrat, but in real life he’s a right wing nit job. He has to conceal that tendency a little bit, but not too much.
I once was in a line of folks he was shaking hands with while he was governor, and I could see him coming my way.
He pretty much had to shake my hand after shaking the 50 or so people’s hands in front of me. When he go to me, the look on his face was one of utter hatred, because I was obviously a leftist Democrat, with a beard. But he shook my hand and went on down the list of people.
I felt OK with it because I think he could tell that I despised him just as just as he hated me for being a hippie Democrat.
Never think the Uncle Joe Manchin is a Democrat! Never!
187.
Paul in KY
@Keith G: ”If properly nurtured’. Key phrase right there.
188.
Paul in KY
@Another Holocene Human: He’s more ‘electable’ in a general election than Sen. Sanders (IMO), if only because he would draw in more ‘independent’ and ‘republican leaning’ voters.
Maybe not so electable in the primaries.
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Belafon
I like empty rectangular boxes as well.
MattF
Hearing Sanders reminds me that, once upon a time, there were no-kidding leftists among the talking heads. This is not to diss Sanders, he’s doing what he should be doing. But Republicans aren’t going to be embarrassed about not cooperating with Obama. It’s their political platform.
SatanicPanic
Who is that idiot talking about it damaging the relationship with Republicans? Is she high?
My Truth Hurts
TV talking heads are so useless. Not to mention detrimental to our democracy.
askew
Bernie strikes me a pretty naive. His policy views are good, but I think any presidential run by him will end up much like Kucinich’s, irrelevant.
I have come to the conclusion that we are stuck with the mediocre Hillary and we are going to have to hope that she can stumble over the finish line and win the general election. And hope that there aren’t any Bill scandals lurking to be outed in the general election.
dp
Good grief, those hosts are horrible.
“Why doesn’t the president talk the Republicans into doing what they refuse to do? What’s wrong with him?”
SatanicPanic
@My Truth Hurts: Oh god I was having a case of the Mondays already, but now I am positively enraged. These two people are awful.
Dcrefugee
Yeah, those two anchors couldn’t be bigger tools if they were in aisle 10 at Home Depot…
julie
There’s something about those Cuomo brothers, too.
beltane
Bernie is like this is real life as well. He regularly does town hall meetings throughout Vermont, and he is intimidated by no one. You would be shocked to see how many cranky old white people respond to an actual left-wing message when it is presented clearly and boldly.
Tone In DC
I knew that most of CNN’s bobbleheads were worthless, but DAMN. These “hosts” give pod people a bad name.
blueskies
I haven’t watched CNN for a long, long time. I’m a pretty cynical guy, but even I am impressed with how disingenuous their talking heads have become. I say that because I refuse to believe that they are actually as stupid as they appear to be. It MUST an act. Nobody could possibly be that stupid.
Right?
Hungry Joe
@blueskies: Wrong.
beltane
@blueskies: They are probably not stupid at all. They are merely doing the bidding of their employers. It’s hard to earn the big paychecks that support a lavish lifestyle by passing off one’s billionaire benefactors and their puppets in the GOP. If these assholes dared display any signs that they posses critical thinking skills, they would be living like John Cole and stressing about paying for repairs on their old Subarus. Integrity doesn’t bring home the bling.
jc
And there’s something about CNN … ugg, detestable.
Mike E
@SatanicPanic: You shoulda watched Leslie Stahl covering the Calif. aquifer crisis…serious issue, but her reporting was like repeated blasts from a clown’s horn.
Uncle Ebeneezer
So if Republicans would just be ‘massaged’ more there would be a happy ending? IYKWIMAITYD
Mike E
@jc: Yep. Now I have to find a brick and smash myself in the face…CNN suuuucks.
Mike E
@blueskies: Right. Al Franken coined the phrase “Disinfotainer” to describe Radio Rusty but I think it applies to cable bobbleheads who know how to draw their considerable paychecks (hint: it’s careful script mgmt)
Violet
@Tone In DC: Good Lord, look at the blonde woman’s sad face frown after she asks the first question. That’s body language someone uses with a two year old. She has no intention of taking Bernie Sanders seriously.
beltane
The real problem is that only old people watch CNN and the rest of the traditional media, and old people are the only ones who vote in consistent numbers. There are two Americas in the way people receive information and form ideas. If this country is to be saved, the non-brainwashed by corporate propaganda portion of the population needs to get engaged somehow.
GregB
Remember when last week or so, large numbers of the media meat-puppets were telling everyone that the Republicans will be forced to govern in a bi-partisan manner after winning the Senate because they said it would be in the best interest of the nation? Good times.
c u n d gulag
Ok, where do I go to sign-up for his campaign?
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
As if I weren’t nervous enough about a possible job that seems to be slipping away after I thought I had it, there’s now an issue that might lead me to have to retract my statements that I’m going to be a published author. Over the weekend it came out that the guy who runs the publishing house the anthology is using sexually molested a girl about 35 years ago. The victim has started publicizing it to let the world know; in this case there was a prosecution at the time and he was convicted so it wasn’t exactly secret but it wasn’t well known in the local F/SF community.
On the one hand, I support her whole-heartedly. There’s no indication that the guy has done anything else hideous since then and he claims, with no evidence to contradict it, that he’s completely reformed himself but in some ways that doesn’t matter; the woman deserves to be heard. So I’m sympathetic and wish her the best . . .
. . . .but at the same time it’s thrown the publication of the anthology into question. The editor sent out an email offering to release any of the authors from their contracts if they don’t want to be associated with the publishing house. If more than a couple do so then the project will evaporate. This was just about the only house that was willing to do the book in the first place so there isn’t much option to go somewhere else.
I don’t know if I can take it if this falls through and I don’t get the job. I really fucking need something tangible to go my way. I’m battling depression already and if the world takes another big shit on me I don’t know what I’m going to do. I was so happy about being published and thinking that, for once, needing to know someone to have a chance at a job was going to work in my favor. To have it snatched away would be horrific.
Mart
Why not vote for Bernie in the primaries? He is a message machine. No other Dem, but dozens of R’s can message like that. Maybe his style would catch on with other Dem’s. It could only help (see election two weeks ago). If he gets enough primary votes, maybe Hillary creeps a little to the left.
Svensker
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Ugh ugh ugh.
Fingers crossed that all — or something! — goes well with you.
Just Some Fuckhead
@askew: I feel so bad for you that Obama can’t run again. How will you go on?
Lolis
I will vote for Bernie in the primaries.
catclub
@GregB: I think the “he’s poisoning the well” argument is not working. It should be laughed at: “You mean it will stop them from cooperating with Obama the same way they have wanted to for the past 6 years”? And there are people on air who are almost saying this.
Bernie was pretty close.
Ed
@beltane: You would be shocked to see how many cranky old white people respond to an actual left-wing message when it is presented clearly and boldly.
You forgot to add “by another old white person”. Because if that same message is presented by someone who is *brown*, they run away from it like it is radioactive.
I am cranky and white, and getting older each day ( 50! ) So I think I might have found my second career.
The Ancient Randonneur
I know it won’t happen but just imagine Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren on the same ticket. That would be quite a messaging machine. Both of them are great at articulating a message the average person can understand in much the same way Obama is good at it.
Just Some Fuckhead
Transcript: http://www.politicususa.com/2014/11/17/bernie-sanders-storms-cnn-destroys-pro-republican-talking-points.html
beth
That was horrible. I was waiting for those hosts to heave a big sigh and roll their eyes. Mario Cuomo must be so embarrassed.
mai naem mobile
Why are there so few non repub senators talking on these shows. There’s Manchin, Mccaskill, Angus Young and Gillibrand when she was selling her book. Where are the rest of them? Are they too fucking lazy to show up? Where s Leahy, Durbin, Schumer, Boxer etc. etc? Also, I would donate a nice chunk of change to the DNC or Emilys List if some retiring senator like Rockefeller would just completely go off on one of these anchors and/or GOPr -really calling them out on their dishonesty and disingenuousness. A clip that would go viral. An even bigger donation if they reach across the table and grab their tie or laptop or something.
JGabriel
I love how Republicans don’t even have to show up to have their point of view advocated by CNN’s hosts.
Tell me again about a neutral media? I love fairy tales.
KG
@askew: depends on if Sanders is the only challenger. with a wide field, his voice would likely get lost. but if it was an attempted coronation like 2000? that could get interesting, especially if there is someone willing to fund Sanders with a Super PAC.
askew
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Yes, because being disappointed that we are being saddled with a too old, mediocre, charisma free candidate means that I am obsessed with Obama. Or maybe I just think Hillary sucks? I thought she sucked since the 1990s and have seen nothing to change my opinion of her. I didn’t even know who Obama was back then.
Archon
I’d support Bernie Sanders if he ran for President. He’s a fringe candidate but he’s much more articulate, charismatic, and genuine then other progressive populists. I think he would at least be able to move the conversation left in ways other candidates couldn’t.
I’d probably support Elizabeth Warren if she ran instead of Bernie but she is definitely gonna have to explain how and why she was a Republican into the mid 90’s. Her answer so far that she thought the GOP was “better for markets” was underwhelming to say the least.
askew
@KG:
I am sorry but even with just Sanders and Hillary, Sanders won’t do anything. He’s ancient, has that crazy hair and isn’t even a Democrat. Very few people are going to stick around to hear his views with that baggage. Yes, it is superficial, but that is reality. And he won’t be able to buy news coverage. The media will treat him as a joke and ignore him.
If the left wants a credible candidate to oppose Hillary and I am starting to think they have no interest in credible anything, they will either get Warren to run or rally around one of the other candidates likely to run (Patrick, O’Malley, Schwitzer, Webb).
I was on the ground in 2004 campaigning for Dean in Iowa and everyone I spoke with thought Kucinich was a joke. I don’t see Sanders doing much better.
I think only a younger candidate has much of a chance against Hillary. Hillary is old and out of touch and the anti-cool. A younger candidate can appeal to younger voters and casual voters who don’t spend hours debating policy. Unfortunately, the only younger candidate who is thinking of running is O’Malley and I have given up thinking that the left or the progressive media will pay any attention to him. He does get quite a bit of attention from the Hispanic media but that won’t help in Iowa or NH.
samiam
If wr0ng w@y Cole likes him then he must have some serious character flaws.
catclub
@askew:
Kind of like Reagan in 1979. Except Hillary has 84% approval among Democrats now.
Cacti
@Archon:
Bernie is actually a competent legislator who would rather get half a pie than no pie at all. That makes him a far more serious candidate than a backbench crank like Dennis Kucinich. I appreciate that he proudly owns the label Democratic Socialist label, and he articulates his positions in a way that doesn’t sound preachy or self-righteous. I welcome his presence in the Democratic primaries for 2016.
I wish he was about 15-20 years younger though.
geg6
@Mike E:
Agreed. That was a horrible segment that really could have been very well done by someone who actually had a brain.
ETA: OTOH, I loved Bob Simon’s piece on Pope Francis’ BFF. He actually asked some tough questions and, though he didn’t really get an answer to the one about ordaining women, it was pretty obvious that the guy was squirming. Not sure if he was squirming because it would mean bad PR or if he doesn’t really agree with the woman hater’s club at the Vatican but can’t say so.
KG
@askew: i was just looking at the current roster of governors and senators, since that’s where most candidates (and all nominees) come from. can we just agree as a country to not have a president for four years? we can just rotate senators as president each week, flip between Republican and Democrat each week.
rikyrah
I usually agree with Bernie. He’s on the tv telling the truths.
catclub
@Cacti:
Al Franken.
Anton Sirius
@askew: Did you seriously just describe Brian Schweitzer as a credible candidate the left could rally behind?
Tommy
@rikyrah: Bernie is the man. The only people I know against sane immigration reform are people I see on TV. I often note my family came here in the 1860s from Scotland. I am an immigrant. Sure that might have been a long time again but I refuse to look down my nose and think I am superior to a recent immigrant. You want to be a productive citizen, come on in.
Botsplainer
OT – got in two absolutely beautiful dives this morning, then lunch, then a nap. I have a night dive off a boat at 6, and plan on a dawn dive tomorrow AM.
Contrasting that, I got about 60 welting bites on my lower legs from the no-see-ums around the bar area from Saturday night, when I was too drunk to think about bug spray. I am trying some hokum product that may or may not be working and seems to consist of ammonia and baking soda. I’m toying with the notion of finding a store and getting vinegar – this itch is worse than the clap (I hear, honest).
askew
@catclub:
Except Reagan ran on optimism and was 1000% the politician that Hilary is. She is mediocre. Reagan sucked as a president and due to his advanced age was out of it for most of his presidency, something we have to look forward to with Hillary. But, Reagan was a great politician and Hillary just isn’t. She’s mediocre on every level.
And polls in 2014 mean absolutely nothing.
As for Al Franken, he is nowhere near as liberal as Sanders. He’s my Senator and he’s been fine but nothing extraordinary as a Senator. He’s no Paul Wellstone that is for sure.
And Al would never run against Hillary.
catclub
anybody else see this:
at Kevin Drum’s place?
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/11/america-developed-worlds-2nd-most-ignorant-country
I think the poll somehow confused people into guessing how many of their friends would like a different job. Drum thinks it is a wild outlier, but does not have much idea why.
askew
@Anton Sirius:
I can’t stand Schweitzer but he is more credible than Bernie Sanders who is ancient, weird and a socialist not a Democrat. Schweitzer would get airtime and could gain a little bit of traction in the primaries. But, the left will rally around Sanders because he is completely unelectable in every way. They don’t want to have to support someone electable, because then they might have to settle for less than purity.
askew
@KG:
That would be interesting as an experiment. Truthfully, outside of O’Malley or Patrick and possibly Gillibrand, I don’t see anyone worth getting excited about. And they either won’t or will get crushed under the Hillary is inevitable nonsense. Let’s hope she excites enough people to let her win the general election. But, I am expecting another Kerry like disappointment.
mb
@julie: sucking bigtime seems to be a Cuomo family tradition.
catclub
@askew:
In 1980, the economy contracted by over 5%. No politician could fail with that tailwind. There was also a third party guy who took more votes from Carter than Reagan.
There is a chart here to show it: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/which-economic-indicators-best-predict-presidential-elections
KG
@askew: I’m resigning myself to Clinton vs Bush (The One To End It All). That idea just depresses me to no end. I’d be surprised if turnout reached 40% in that election. I really just can’t think of anyone, anywhere on the political spectrum that makes me want to vote them rather than against the other guy, and I do actually have a “vote against” threshold where I’ll cop to the “not a dime’s worth of difference” and in Clinton vs Bush, well…
catclub
@askew:
The economy contracted by about 5% in 1980. That is an incredible tailwind for the challenger.
(Do I have a post in moderation on this subject? Or did I lose it myself?)
beth
@mb: I’m convinced both those Cuomo boys are just waiting until Dad dies to formally join the Republican party.
Tommy
@askew: I don’t see how Hillary wins the general if the Republicans put anybody up that isn’t bat shit crazy. I don’t dislike Hillary. Not in the least. Her resume is maybe the best in the country. Impressive beyond words. But my liberal friends are not sending me videos of her like they did of Obama after his speech at the DNC. There are not front page posts here saying “Run Hilliary Run.” She doesn’t seem to excite many people, myself included.
beth
@Tommy: Maybe you were spoiled by Obama. What candidate before him were you ever really excited about? Kerry? Dukakis? Gore?
Paul in KY
@beltane: That’s why Allison Grimes effed up. She came across as craven & out only for herself when she played coy about who she voted for.
Whether it was for Obama or against Obama, she should have given a clear, truthful answer & defended it.
She made other eff ups & probably would not have won, if she’d run a perfect campaign, but she stepped on her metaphorical dick there, IMO.
Tommy
@beth: None in the general election. Point taken.
Paul in KY
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Hope you get that spot in the anthology.
Paul in KY
@Archon: I don’t care what her answer is & would vote for her regardless. Not a positive though that she was a Republican. Probably has to do with the change she was making.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: Who the fuck cares about “excited”? Obama was the first exciting candidate since Kennedy. _Maybe_ squeeze Reagan in there, fine. No one was excited about Bush or Kerry or Romney or McCain or Bush or Gore or Dukakis or Clinton (he became a star after getting elected) or Carter or Ford or Nixon or McGovern or Johnson. Exciting is overrated. You don’t need 100% excitement. You need 51% excitement from a large amount of people.
ETA: Or, what beth said.
Paul in KY
@askew: If Sen. Sanders was serious about a bid, he would have to run as a Democrat.
catclub
@Tommy:
1. Who among the GOP is NOT bat-shit crazy.
2. I suspect that there may be some white women who will vote en masse for Hillary. Just a guess.
First woman President is a big deal. Kind of like first black President.
lamh36
OT, but apparently Gov Nixon has just declared a state of emergency in Missouri…
Usual caveat that some seem to always ask for…maybe Wilson will be indicted, but yeah…I’ve never believed it.
Paul in KY
@KG: Fuck no. What happens when it comes up with Sen. Cruz as President?!
Please put down the crack pipe.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Tommy: I have some PUMA-ish acquaintances in what we used to call meatspace, a couple of whom are all in for Hillary, others who will vote for the D, but might be a bit more inclined to donate or volunteer for HRC. I don’t know how widespread those feelings are, but I do have a vague, data-less sense that the Clinton camp is overconfident.
I think one to watch on the other side is Cory Gardner, who got elected by basically aping George W Bush’s 2000 campaign. “Me, extreme? What record? Don’t I seem like a nice fella?” and hasn’t exhibited any of the caricatural stupidity that I still, after all these years, can’t quite believe didn’t sink the Shrub. Maybe he won’t be ready for ’16, but I think he’s a more polished version of Paul Ryan.
Paul in KY
@askew: Schweitzer is more electable than Bernie, but he’s to the right of Hillary. It would be like electing a Mitt, with more charisma.
Keith G
@TommyLike it or not, in 2008 Obama was an extraordinary new, shiny thing. The historical dimensions of his candidacy gave an emotional content to that election that we are not likely to see repeated for a while. The fact the any candidate this time around can’t come close to matching that buzz is rather expected.
And actually, I am a bit burned out by candidates with super buzz.
Paul in KY
@catclub: I think Rand Paul would be their strongest candidate, but I can’t see him getting thru the primaries (against Jeb, say).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I would argue he became a star after he left office, if not (at least among Ds) after he got impeached. I think Bubba’s star power, such as it is, comes from being the (white) guy who was president before everything went to hell, from Iraq to Wall St.
Cacti
@lamh36:
The fix is in.
I never doubted it for a moment.
C.V. Danes
@askew:
Myself, I’m hoping for a Biden/Warren ticket…
Paul in KY
@C.V. Danes: I could get behind that!!
C.V. Danes
@blueskies:
Stupid, no. Mendacious, yes.
FlipYrWhig
@askew:
I was asking about this before. Why not another Dean run? He doesn’t seem busy doing anything else. If the point is to be combative and populist and energizing, he kind of invented that, at least the 21st-century version of it…
beltane
@C.V. Danes: Funny, that’s the ticket my mother is hoping for. Maybe it will get her kicked out of the Older White Lady club, but my mother considers Hillary to be an opportunistic hack.
dance around in your bones
It’s not that movie Weekend at Bernie’s. is it?
Haha – just kidding. I love Bernie Sanders, he tells the truth – which is a rare thing nowadays for a politician.
MomSense
@lamh36:
I have a very bad feeling about this.
Tommy
@Keith G: Yes and I agree with most of the other comments to my comment. We might never see another 2008 in my lifetime. Excitement can also be overrated. I think to going to see him speak late in the campaign. Under the Arch in St. Louis got me thinking this should happen in every campaign.
http://communitymatters.biz/2008/10/19/obama-in-st-louis-100000/
Click the link for the pic, then click it to enlarge. The estimates range to about 100,000 people. I was late getting there. Had seen the pics of massive crowds at campaign events but getting off the rail line to see him speak for the first time not in his senate race I almost fell to my knees in tears.
Look at the pic please, that happened.
C.V. Danes
@GregB:
ha. haha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Whew!
Good laugh!
beltane
@Paul in KY: We nearly got a Republican governor in Vermont because, among other things, the incumbent Democrat took a gratuitous dump on the teachers’ union right before the election. It didn’t win a single Republican vote but it did contribute to record low turnout. For whatever reason, too many Democratic politicians seem to have nothing but contempt for Democratic base voters.
MomSense
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
OH NO!! I’m sorry this is happening to you. I am sending you a big hug.
replicnt6
@beth:
Yeah, good point. Those guys made some of the best presidents we’ve ever had.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: I went to a massive rally in Philadelphia in 2004. For John Kerry. Bill Clinton had just gotten out of the hospital and was hitting the campaign trail for the first time. And it’s not like John Kerry was a megawatt star. We were excited because the other guy was so horrible. That was enough.
C.V. Danes
@FlipYrWhig:
I’d rather Dean go back to running the DNC. My vote would be for a Biden/Warren ticket to overthrow the Clinton juggernaut.
Keith G
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It was more than that. Bill was the first president from the postwar baby boom. That was more important than many here seem to recall. He followed two old white guys who were shockingly isolated from the society and culture of the population they were governed. His ability to speak directly to his fellow citizens (before and after the election) in a caring, non-stilted manner was a radical departure form the presidential norm.
His star power had been a factor even before 1992.
FlipYrWhig
@replicnt6: Good point. Look at all those exciting, galvanizing Republicans we’ve had to contend with, like Ronald Reagan, a END TRANSMISSION
Tone In DC
@Violet:
And these wingers go on about the liberal media. Coverage like this is nauseating, like hearing OvenMitt3000™ speak during a debate.
C.V. Danes
@replicnt6:
They did, but you’d have to cross the Fringe bridge to our companion universe in order to experience it.
replicnt6
@FlipYrWhig: We were excited because the other guy was so horrible. That was enough.
Tommy
@FlipYrWhig: I am very open to being told I am wrong. I try not to be wrong but if I am don’t mind if told so (most times I am not). With that said did Kerry ever have 100,000 at a campaign event? Heck 50,000. 25,000.
Alison
I like him too, if only because he managed to sit through that whole thing without leaping across the desk and throttling both of those idiots.
Oy vey.
dance around in your bones
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Aw, jeez JMN – I just MY dream job (hahahahah withe a crazy lady and her little dog FOO!!)
…so I hear ya, and I just want you to hang in their and perhaps another opportunity will come up? One never knows. I’m in a much better place than the $4 million mansion I was was living in………….
I have a great land lady now, and a great roommate who was kind enough to fuck me even though he’s the age of my daughter……ok, enough of that. I just want to say that you never know WHAT’S gonna happen!!!!
It’s like the”:Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know WHAT you’re gonna get!”
Hang in there – you are worthy!!
replicnt6
@FlipYrWhig:
Republicans don’t need to be exciting. Perhaps you’ve missed the part about how critical turnout is to D’s getting elected.
Keith G
@Tommy:
.
I am among the group of people who feel that that energy could/should have been managed, preserved, and put to other uses. The fact that it was allowed to flow away into the ether without such an attempt may go down as one of the silliest moves in American politics in this young century.
Paul in KY
@beltane: Boy do I hear you there! Be proud to be a Democrat & fighting for our core principles. Surely any of our candidates need to come across as how glad they are that they are a Democrat, and not a toady-for-the-rich Republican.
Trollhattan
Oh Newsmax, never, ever change–“Climatologist says 30-year cold spell begins.”
Based, I presume, on it snowing somewhere last weekend? Mid-November is the earliest it has ever snowed; you could look it up.
Paul in KY
@Keith G: Do agree with you that that great excitement & engagement of 2008 was either mishandled or probably taken for granted and not nurtured.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@dance around in your bones:
No wonder you were complaining about your hip hurting again. ;-)
Belafon
@KG:
The wish of Democrats that gets them in trouble: Thinking that you get to choose from the best people who could be president/governor/senator/representative if you just wish hard enough. You get to choose from those that run for the office.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: Huge, huge crowd in Philly. Blocks upon blocks full of people. Estimated by NYT at 80,000. Which is to say that crowd size does not equal excitement which does not equal victory.
Amir Khalid
@dance around in your bones:
I find myself thinking somewhat uncomfortably about that recent exchange we had regarding, um, hair.
gene108
@C.V. Danes:
I don’t get the love for Biden and the hate for Hillary. This may not apply to you per se, but it is something I’ve seen on the internets.
Biden also voted for the AUMF, back in 2002.
He’s very much cut from the same political cloth as Hillary and Bill, in my opinion.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but I do not see what reason people have to differentiate between Biden and Hillary, with regards to relative enthusiasm or lack thereof for either candidate.
The AUMF vote / Iraq War stance, from back in 2002, was the deciding factor between how voters viewed Hillary versus Obama, because other than that Hillary was actually to the left of Obama on gay marriage and gun control, in that primary six years ago.
FlipYrWhig
@Paul in KY: @Keith G: I think the financial crisis killed it. Sunny optimism went down like a sack of cement, and everything went into coping mode instead of movement-building.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@dance around in your bones:
I think so, but at some point the universe has to agree or it doesn’t really matter.
dance around in your bones
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Aw, jeez JMN – I just lost MY dream job (hahahahah with a crazy lady and her little dog FOO!!)
…so I hear ya, and I just want you to hang in there and perhaps another opportunity will come up? One never knows. I’m in a much better place than the $4 million mansion I was was living in………….
I have a great land lady now, and a great roommate who was kind enough to fuck me even though he’s the age of my daughter……ok, enough of that. I just want to say that you never know WHAT’S gonna happen!!!!
It’s like the”:Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know WHAT you’re gonna get!”
Hang in there – you are worthy!!
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Speaking as someone who was on a job search while in the midst of a depression, you need to be very, very careful not to sabotage yourself right now, because your brain is going to try and trick you into doing it. Before you communicate with the potential job or the publishing house, run what you want to say past your therapist or a friend/family member or, heck, us.
Right now, your brain and thought patterns are your enemy, so check them with an objective person before you take any action.
askew
@beltane:
One of the big worries about Hillary. She and her husband have had no problems attacking their own base in the past. That just doesn’t work now as we saw with the 2014 election. It just depresses our base.
FlipYrWhig
@askew: Do you mean “base” or do you mean “liberals”? Because they’re not the same thing. A lot of grassroots Democrats love Bill and Hillary Clinton and are not liberals. Is that the base or isn’t it? (I kinda wish people would drop the whole “base” idea, because it’s started to mean “people like me,” but I suppose that ship sailed long ago.)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: the financial crisis, and just plain old American politics. Obama ran into Mitch McConnell just like Clinton ran into Daniel Patrick Moynihan. A lot of other details and differences in demographics and different bills and yadda yadda, but what old man Cuomo, who had the good sense to remain a hypothetical president, said remains true: we campaign in poetry and govern in prose.
Paul in KY
@FlipYrWhig: Excellent point there. Could have turned that optimism & energy against the bastards that made it happen…but that would be icky populism.
Mnemosyne
@gene108:
I think that people still view Hillary as being very much inside DLC circles with the Mark Penns and Leon Panettas of the world — the same circles that have been losing elections for us since 2000 (maybe even 1994). Since Biden has been Obama’s VP, I think people are assuming that he’ll be willing to use the Obama people for his campaign rather than the Clinton apparatchiks.
I don’t think that people view their policies as being all that different, but that they would run their campaigns differently.
Trollhattan
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Well that just stinks. Been there with the job thing, but not the rapidly dissolving publisher thing.
BTW, had you mentioned previously your publisher was House of Cosby?
Hanging in, espeically by one’s fingernails, is no fun but hang in you must!
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Trollhattan: Thank goodness, no “global warming”, I can fire up my backyard “diesel pit” to warm the house up again. Fuckin’ EPA made me turn it off a few years back, something about it killing a bunch of kids or cats or some bureaucratic bullshit like that.
Trollhattan
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Damn straight, Skippy, Imma frack the holy hell outta mah backyard and take the coal-fired lead smelter out of storage.
Yeehaw!
askew
@Tommy:
I think her resume is fine on paper, but when you start talking about what’s she’s actually done in office, then we have some issues. I try to imagine myself talking to voters about supporting Hillary and I can’t find any reason to support her. This is what I have:
1. She’s held office a long time.
2. She knows a lot of the power players.
3. She’s been near leaders who have accomplished incredible things.
4. She’s not a Republican.
That isn’t going to excite anyone.
With Obama in 2008, I could talk about how much he accomplished in his first 3 years in the Senate. Getting 3 bills passed in such a short time for a freshman is pretty unheard of. I could talk about how he managed the impossible compromise between police, ACLU and victims groups about videotaping interrogations while in the IL State Senate. I could talk about his vision for the country and how he made the right calls on the Iraq War and stood up when so many Dems caved.
I can make a great argument for why we should support O’Malley. But, I can’t do it with Hillary. She just hasn’t done much of anything on her own in her career. I think it is sad that she has so little to show for all her years in office and it makes me depressed to think that is the best we can offer.
Tommy
@FlipYrWhig: Well good thing we got a “liberal” media. From the intro of your link about Bill Clinton:
Go liberal media ……New York Times …..
Tone In DC
@dance around in your bones:
Glad to hear things are looking up. Party on (you, Bernie, Liz and the rest of us).
FlipYrWhig
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think politics would have taken its toll, sure, but if 2008-now was prosperous rather than bleak, I think Obama’s approval would have stayed higher among indies and some Republicans, and Republican sabotage would have been more obviously sadistic. My pet theory is that the embattled white working class that never liked Obama all that much has been much quicker to turn on him because times have been tough and they’ve been that much more susceptible to anti-“welfare” racist and quasi-racist demagoguery. IOW, the good feeling from the symbolism of the First Black President was dissipated by the feeling that it was a war of all against all for scarce resources and all the hope was going to be fed back to Those People not Us. Maybe that’s whitesplaining Obama-era racism, but I think there’s something to it: the racist paranoia has been aggravated by white economic insecurity. White security means less racism. Not NO racism; hardly. But less. YMMV.
FlipYrWhig
@Tommy: To be fair, he WAS fresh offa heart surgery.
Mandalay
@Tommy:
I wouldn’t go quite that far, but the prevailing assumption that the presidency is hers if she wants it is absurd. She is old, haughty, testy, and a poor campaigner. She can be beaten. I don’t think it’s that unlikely that the Democrats regain the Senate and lose the presidency in 2016.
You lost me there. Her resume includes plenty of nepotism, loser stink, doing nothing, and failing. She is certainly the best chance of victory for the Democrats, but let’s not kid ourselves that her resume won’t be savaged during the campaign.
FlipYrWhig
@FlipYrWhig: Whoops, for “turn on him” read “give up on him.”
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): It’s not up to me to deal with the publisher; all I did was let the editor, who is in charge of administrating the project, that I was willing to go ahead and continue with the publisher. After that it’s completely out of my hands. And I interviewed with the prospective employer a week and a half before all of this (on Thursday the 6th); it’s the fact that they said they’d make a decision within a week and I haven’t heard from them that has me pessimistic about it.
@Trollhattan: I didn’t know anything about it until I got the email from the editor this morning.
dance around in your bones
@Botsplainer: Dude. That sucks. Don’t get drunk before you apply the anti-bug shit,
I know you have had other things on your mind lately….hope it works out for you :)
askew
@FlipYrWhig:
I mean the base – teachers, unions, minorities, young women, college-educated professionals. That’s our base. And the Clintons have loved nothing more than shitting on them over and over again.
And the key is that the base LOVES Bill Clinton. I don’t think they LOVE Hillary. She has great approval ratings but those will fall once she is back on the trail. The problem is that Hillary just isn’t the politician her husband is. She just isn’t going to excite the base in the same way. Yes, some older women are excited by her, but I don’t think we get anywhere near the excitement that we saw with Obama. It wasn’t just AAs who were excited by him. It was young voters, women, and minorities. He ran on hope and optimism and a new vision for the country. Hillary just doesn’t have that vision thing. She is much more along the lines of Kerry, but with fewer accomplishments. Hillary is going to have to count on being better than the alternative to win. Against a more accomplished GOP governor who isn’t ancient and has personal charisma and vision (even it if is an evil vision), I don’t know how that turns out for us.
skerry
Bernie Sanders will be on the Colbert Report tonight.
ETA: I just saw that Gov Nixon has declared a state of emergency in Missouri and has authorized the National Guard to “help” police.
Trollhattan
@FlipYrWhig:
If Big Dog never does another thing to follow up his 2012 DNC speech his legacy is intact on my ledger.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@FlipYrWhig: I’d say you are on to something. Certainly among threads in the tapestry that explain the politics of the last six years or so…
…
Mnemosyne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
So now what you need to do is find an objective person who can help you craft an email or phone call to gently ask what’s going on. Because your brain is trying to sabotage you, it’s telling you that there’s no point in following up and you should just let it fade. Or, alternatively, your brain is telling you to call them up and scream at them for misleading you.
A few extra days is not that big a deal, unless you’re depressed and your brain is trying to sabotage you. So have an objective person help you figure out what to say and then say it.
dance around in your bones
@KG:
One Ring To End It All? One Ring To Find Them? One Ring To Bring Them All And In The Darkness Bind Them?”
Gads, Jeb iz scary……
catclub
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/A_Witness_Wants_To_Talk
If we get an open thread we could talk about this.
Mnemosyne
@catclub:
There is a seriously NSFW ad on that page. Luckily, my computer faces away from my co-workers.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: He doesn’t strike me as naive at all in that interview.
I’ve had a lot of issues with Saint Bernie in the past. His lefty-Dem fans tend to be as delusional as Ronulans registered Independent. But I like what he’s selling today. More, please.
Just the awkwardness between him and the corporate press is enough to make this seem worth it. The corporate press is mixed between Obama fans, Obama haters, and people who think Obama spurned them and must be taken down. It seems like the corporate press has nothing but contempt for Sanders … and he is clearly showing himself not to be a nutjob like Kucinich.
Yeah. I’m thinking about supporting him in the primary. Unless we get a really good elected DEMOCRAT in the ring. So far they’re all afraid to cross Hilary and her people. Because I like a lot of the DEMOCRATS waiting out there in the wings. But if they can’t do it, well the difference between Bernie and Hilary couldn’t be more stark.
catclub
@askew:
Sounds like George Bush, 1988.
The outlier is Gore losing in 2000.
Another Holocene Human
@beltane: Barney Frank used to be a master of that too, although he’s retired now, and Al Franken kills it extemporaneously as well.
So does Obama.
Keith G
@Paul in KY:
Commenters above cite the crisis as letting the air out of the balloon of optimism, but I see it as the exact type of condition to keep energy levels up, if such energy is properly nurtured.
askew
@Trollhattan:
Really? Why? I think Bill’s legacy can be summed up by the pile of shit he left for Obama to clean up – OBL, DADT, DOMA, repeal of Glass-Steagall, etc. Just think what Obama could have done without Bill’s poor policy decisions weighing him down.
While the media ate up Bill’s speech and tried to give Obama’s re-election win to Bill, the Obama camp said that polling was consistent from the summer on and that nothing really moved the numbers. Not the Great White Hope Bill’s speech, not Obama choking during the debate, not Obama schooling Romney in the other two debates. Nothing really moved the numbers. They were pretty much baked in.But, that doesn’t change the narrative that the Bill won Obama’s re-election for him.
We could have a conversation about why it is that that the media needs to give Obama’s victories to the nearest white person, but we all know why.
catclub
@Mnemosyne: Sorry about that.
Another Holocene Human
@Violet:
Her first few volleys sounded like a FOX anchor “just asking questions” during the rant portion of their broadcast (Megyn Kelly is who I’m thinking of primarily). Heck, just look at Bernie’s grimace before they even get started. He knows what the game is here.
I’m actually really impressed that he’s wading through this bullshit. He could easily sit on his laurels for the rest of his life.
dance around in your bones
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I’m worrying that I’m talking about it too fucking much.
But it was a Big Fucking Deal for me :)
askew
@catclub:
Bush was running against Dukakis who had negative charisma and no political skills. Hillary is damn close to Dukakis level. If they put up someone who excites their base, while ours is stuck with Hillary, it’s going to be a problem.
And while Gore won, it was damn close because he chose to run away from Clinton which is exactly what Hillary is poised to do with Obama.
dance around in your bones
@Amir Khalid: Andale pues!! (That means “Get on with it!” in Spanish)
I don’t think either one of us had any issues about ….um…hair.More like enjoyment……
askew
@Another Holocene Human:
Who are the Obama lovers in the press? He’s gotten over 80% negative press coverage since 2011. The only person I can think of that loves Obama is Joy Ann Reid and her entire show is filled with people who disagree with her and think Obama sucks for this reason or that reason.
Omnes Omnibus
@askew: Just off hand, you know that the Clinton administration was seriously going after OBL and that DADT was a step forward at the time, right?
Another Holocene Human
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): I know this agony. My wife got published by an online-mostly house and has regretted not pitching to another one in the same space that seems to be better run. Her former editor moved on to another opportunity so she got passed to another editor that didn’t “get” the passing woman character and so punted her to the clinically depressed editor and it looks like there’s no way she’s getting published by the target date which is basically hell for a compulsive person like herself. She does all the publicity, a lot of the selling, but the publisher is not transparent about stuff like sales/pricing/profit so for one thing she can’t tell if her Facebook promos work or not and for another thing she always has this vague fear that the owners are embezzling from the authors because their communications are so sketchy.
It’s a jungle out there … I’m really sorry all of this happened. Writing is such a self-exposure, it’s so contrary to grit and persistence since it’s your soul on the line. Obviously somebody saw the value in it so you’ve got that going for you. Hoping your job works out.
Violet
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
This means nothing. Maybe they couldn’t get other candidates in or interviews in a timely fashion. Maybe the person who has to okay your hire is on vacation. Maybe someone had a baby or family emergency. Maybe they liked you so much that they’re figuring out how to rearrange things so they can offer you a better position or more money. Hiring decisions get delayed all the time.
Mnemosyne has good advice. Following up is good but if you’re depressed make sure you run it by someone for another opinion so your brain doesn’t sabotage you.
dance around in your bones
@Tone In DC: {{{smile}}}
? Martin
I think TPM has this right. Obama is going to do the executive order if only to force the entire GOP to campaign on overturning it in 2016. And he’ll roll out a bunch of other executive orders to have the same effect.
Tommy
@Keith G: Huey Long. I think if you want to talk populism you need to learn about him. Not follow, but learn. At the start to the book on him the author tells a story Huey used to tell on the stump (most times an actual stump of a tree). That on Sunday he’d go to church with his Catholic grandparents then take a horse and buggy to a Baptists church. The author goes on to note that Huey wasn’t a Catholic nor did this grandparents own a horse.
I am not saying we go here but this is what the Republicans do. And they do it well.
gvg
Bill Clinton stirred up plenty of excitement when campaigning the first time. things were mostly OK under him in spite of the republicans.
Hillary is not as good.
It is reported that a good number of older women really want her to be president and will be bitter if someone beats her. A shame but people are going to vote for whomever seems like the best choice at the time and I am not the only woman who wants a woman president but really hopes it’s someone else. I will even vote for a white male if I think he has a better sense of my issues, and this is entirely possible. I hate Hillary’s hawkishness and don’t think she is as perceptive or even tempered as I need.
All the republicans are nuts. The party itself is also nuts so anyone still wearing that label has chosen to dance to that tune.
I will wait and see about the choices. I don’t like the risk of an older person and Hillary, Bernie, and Biden all have that against them.
The democratic party seems to be coming up with sane possible choices even if I can see flaws in all of them as opposed to the republicans. Odds are decent.
Mrs. Holocene
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Hi, this is Another Holocene Human’s wife. They said you needed some cheering up, and first of all I want to wish you luck with the job thing because yikes. Seriously, all the luck in the world. Now, about the writing thing — there are other houses out there. Shitty things like that have happened to at least two authors I know within the past year. I know it sucks but if you pout for a couple of weeks and then get back on the horse you can probably find another place to put it. They’re mostly LGBTq+ focused, but if you can even make one of the characters asexual, that’ll count and “Read Vitality” (google them) will pay five cents a word. Max 5,000 words. Very much sci-fi/fantasy encouraged.
er
anyway just keep poking at it. Believe me, making the decision to pull out of something involved with an abuser is a good call because if you don’t, years later you’ll get put on someone’s list of “people we’re avoiding because they did this one questionable thing years ago” and you’ll wish you’d made a different call
dance around in your bones
@Mnemosyne: Mnem – AdBlockPlus!!! If you are allowed to install it at work?
Plus – JMN!!!! Listen to Mnemosyne! Our minds can really kill our dreams if we let it….
Calouste
@KG:
Dubya is the only sitting Republican governor or senator to be elected President since Warren Harding in 1921. Hoover, Eisenhower and Pa Bush were neither, and Reagan and Nixon had been out of office for more than 4 years when they got elected.
In the same time period, FDR, JFK, WJC and BHO were sitting Senators or Governors during the election, and Carter had been out of office for 2 years.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: I’m with you there. I thought Hilary sucked since the whole censor-everything push when she jumped on board Tipper’s fail train. Nothing has really changed my opinion of her since. If anything, I’ve come to somewhat reconsider my support of her at State because while she was pushing for a lot of stuff I care about she also helped make sure Honduras is more of a clusterfuck and apparently ran up against Obama advocating dumb shit in the ME. Kerry sucks but OTOH it’s not really his fault all of Bush and Rumsfeld’s chickens decided to come home to roost at once.
Hilary sucks. More and better Democrats, please.
Tommy
@Tommy: Whoops I left something out of my comment. Long told people what they wanted to hear. That then lead into my statement:
Another Holocene Human
Kerry seriously, though, sucks at State just like he sucked as a Presidential candidate. His political instincts are for shit. Hope you’re happy, Republi-traitors. We coulda had Susan Rice.
Draft Madeleine Albright.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Violet: I was already planning on calling them tomorrow.
askew
@Another Holocene Human:
He’s already surpassed Hillary’s accomplishments at State with the big China deal, getting countries onboard to fight ISIS and the finishing touches on the Iran Nuclear Deal. The media may not fawn all over him, but he’s been doing a remarkable job at State.
Mike E
@askew: I agree with this assessment of ’12.
I don’t see Sanders as a detriment. He embodies the true Big Tent ideal of a Dem Party that stands for people over profits, and he seems persistently optimistic about this inclusivity enough to not try and burn the whole thing down (coughNADERcough)..even as an independent Socialist. We need pols like him, no matter how daunting national office barriers are that stand in his way.
askew
@Another Holocene Human:
Hillary didn’t do much of anything at State besides make a mess of Honduras, do a feel-good tour to repair relations and be against every one of Obama’s good ideas on FP – she wanted boots on the ground in Libya and Syria. She wanted to arm Syrians. She was against OBL raid, etc. She has bad foreign policy instincts.
I didn’t realize she was onboard with Tipper’s nonsense in the 1990s. That hurt Gore with young voters without a doubt.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@dance around in your bones: My mind hasn’t killed my dreams. Eight years of every job application I submit getting turned down has done that. Having my wife walk out on me four months after I had a nervous breakdown has done that to me.
Those things aren’t in my mind.
catclub
@Mike E: The most interesting part to me was where he was assessing the possibility of running against the billionaires and bankers without a source of money, and that it may be simply impossible.
I did hear that right, didn’t I?
Julie
@Tommy: 50k in Portland in 2004. Obama hit 72k in the same space in 2008. And Biden only had about 1,000 people at his last Portland visit (I think by design? It was a smaller, indoor gathering), but he closed down half of NE Portland once people found out he (and his aviator glasses) were having ice cream at Salt & Straw. Make of that what you will. ;)
dance around in your bones
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Gawd, that made me cry.
My husband – who died 3 years ago, and who I had been with since I was 15 and he was 19….so, like a long time……..that was fucking rough.Then I broke my hip. Then I fractured it again, and am going to have a total hip replacement surgery in about a month……sometimes life just fucking sucks..
But all we can do is keep on keeping on. There have been times when I felt like filling my pockets with stones like Virginia Woolf and just wading into the ocean (I think she wade into a river:) but – ya know? New things can happen!
Don’t give up, honey……
FlipYrWhig
@Another Holocene Human: I think you may be merging Tipper Gore’s PMRC with Hillary Clinton’s video game ratings bill.
Lymie
HA HA HA – did you hear the stupid comment at end – “I don’t believe that Vermont accent will be popular accross the country.”
Ho lee sheet. Bernie has an amazing Brooklyn accent!!!
Bernie Sanders was born on September 8, 1941, in Brooklyn, New York, the son of Polish Jewish immigrants, he graduated from HS there and went to Brooklyn college and then Chicago.
Another Holocene Human
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They are definitely overconfident. Way far out polls that trade on name recognition long before the election mean nothing. Plenty of people have won those polls and gone down in the general. Barack Obama wasn’t handed the Presidency–he fought for it. He fought for every single vote. And muscling other Dems into compliance is NOT the same thing as winning the general. It’s akin to Chris Christie’s Jersey shenanigans, like yeah, he can be the big outlaw whale into the little salty pond but outside of his bubble he’s just some loudmouth asshole who turned off the wrong exit on the Turnpike.
Another Holocene Human
@Paul in KY: How is a loud, proud Obama hater “electable” among Dem primary voters in any state that the Dems are not going to lose and lose big in the general?
lololol trollololol
Another Holocene Human
@gene108:
There’s more informing my opinion of each of them than voting records.
Not that I’m totally in love with Biden but he ain’t no Hilary Clinton.
Also, I get the feeling that Biden would happily serve for one term and retire, by which time the Dems ought to have some younger viable candidates. And there would be a lot of continuity between administrations which would make his presidency more effective. Biden is not a terrible choice.
I could care less how he voted when he was D-CreditCardsylvania.
DWD
sorry if this was already asked and answered, but has anybody figured out how Canadian tar sands will help wean the US off of foreign oil?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@DWD: Canadian oil destined for the Asian market. Obama made this point today.
Another Holocene Human
@FlipYrWhig: If by “base” you mean the people who work campaigns, I think about 1/3 at least of the base is real excited about her because they think she’s the everlasting GOPcrusher. But a lot of other people are really fretting. She’s no Cuomo the lesser, I mean he would cause widespread ragequitting. Right now everybody loves to hate “banksters” which means Booker has zero chance but Clinton doesn’t seem as tainted.
Obama didn’t win with the existing base so much as picking up a lot of sideliners. Now some of it was a one-time deal because they fell in love with the idea of the campaign and stroked out when the reality of governance hit but he genuinely got a lot of people into politics who’ve stayed engaged to one degree or another.
You need base not to hate you because they won’t do GOTV. See: Alex Sink. They say it’s because she was a banker but more it was the way she muscled into the primary and just offended people. She angered the locals. There’s all there is to that. And all the money in the world (she drained labor dry) couldn’t save her.
So those saying that Hilary could depress the base? She certainly could. She has a history of ill-conceived and arrogant comments.
And then there’s the sideliners. Dems absolutely cannot win without them. See: 2010 2014. They’re more important than ever because the GOP has been sewing up the old cranky white vote. Mixture of demographics (New Dealers dying, Silent Gen emerging on top) and constant propaganda and, well, people suck. Appealing to racism gets votes. You need to get Millennials and GenXers to get motivated to vote, you need to offer something to Latin@s, and the populist stuff does seem to work on the “lunchpailers” Hilary was so wistful about in 2008. Romney running his mouth hurt him in 2012. And Romney being Romney. That election was way too fucking close.
Hilary’s moment has passed and she doesn’t realize it because her biggest fans were elderly crawl over broken glass voters and they’ve died off and have been replaced with racial resentment, IGMFY to the Nth Degree voters. I’ve not seen the slightest indication that Hilary knows how to fight for votes and find votes. She or whoever the nominee is will have to motivate younger Boomers, GenXers, and Millennials to vote, all of whom stayed home bigtime this year. Well, Hilary has a lot of baggage with younger Boomers and especially GenXers. Millennials only know her as SoS … though she hasn’t done a damn thing to court them, so …
Another Holocene Human
@Mnemosyne:
It’s also about the WH and executive agencies, who do you owe. Obama had to pay off some debts early on and we had to endure some shitheads but most of them are gone now. Clinton will owe a lot of loathesome people, also, just look at her husband’s admin, his people were worse by 1998 than they were in 1994 … a lot worse. All the good people had run away.
Part of it’s just … Obama. But I think there’s a very good chance that Biden keeps a lot of the same people around … and that’s a good thing.
Another Holocene Human
@FlipYrWhig:
That’s pretty trivially true. But I don’t think it’s really the recession but the long con, the intergenerational loss of jobs, economic status, security. The spot economy is back.
The hunt for someone to blame (not Reagan!) has been going on since 1980.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: This just occurred to me: Biden has shown willingness to be where younger people are at and not stuck in the past. Full throated support of women. His “gaffe” on same-sex marriage. But the last time Hilary was in public she was doing some sort of 1990s nostalgia tour. That’s what she’s got.
When you’ve lost older voters and need to motivate younger and middle-aged people to vote you need to make it clear you’re not going to be stuck somewhere in the past because they are living in the present and the future and the younger they are, the more stressed they are about that future.
Another Holocene Human
@skerry: Jay Nixon grasping for the legacy of “Bull” Connor. What a motherfucker.
Another Holocene Human
@askew: What, politics don’t matter, askew? Way to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Were you there in the 1990s? Clinton and DADT was like Obama and Gitmo, neither of them wanted what happened but it turned out the rest of the country was definitely NOT where the campaign volunteers and whipped up minority group voters at campaign rallies were up. (In Clinton’s case he had HUGE backing by GLBT voters, which was really unprecedented.)
AnonPhenom
@Lymie:
…and I wouldn’t give Biff or Brad or whatever’dafuck that haircut’s name is the benefit of the doubt on the ‘Vermont’ thing. It was the ‘accent’ point that he was stressing.
“Bernie, you’re just too … how should I say it? … ‘Ethnic’ … do you know what I mean?”
Another Holocene Human
@askew: Maybe it’s the OBot speaking but I kind of credit Obama for that stuff. I guess it’s good he’s not actively fighting Obama within the WH. But he’s been visible in Israel/Palestine stuff and just seems naive and doing more harm than good. IDK. He has been pretty good on the ISIS stuff and hasn’t said anything too stupid recently. Like he’s a smart guy and dedicated but I think his political instincts are for shit. Guess I shouldn’t talk because I protest-voted against him in the primary, 2002 maybe? You know half the reason he was a Senator was that he had an Irish name when that mattered and he’s not even Irish. By the time that came out nobody cared but this is not a guy who’s had to win uphill campaigns. I would assume without knowing anything about her that Heidi Heitkamp knows more about politicianing than J Kerry does.
Another Holocene Human
@FlipYrWhig: Not really, at the time it felt like she was bandwagoning. Not to mention, the fact that she went after video games is actually worse politically today than Tipper’s sticker regime for naughty CDs.
I think that Hilary Clinton easily is obscured in terms of tech world /nerdspace boogeymen by the other evil Hilary, the one who was a lawyer for RIAA.
Kay
I love Bernie Sanders. I heard him on the radio during the VA fake-crisis and he kept saying “they want to PRIVATIZE!” which is true but no one else would say it. He has to talk really fast before they cut him off. I sometimes worry he’ll pass out if he doesn’t take a gulp of air between sentences.
In other news, Ohio Democrats are doing a “listening tour” to find out what they should be saying/doing.
I will bring ideas :)
J R in WV
@mai naem mobile:
Manchin calls himself a Democrat, but in real life he’s a right wing nit job. He has to conceal that tendency a little bit, but not too much.
I once was in a line of folks he was shaking hands with while he was governor, and I could see him coming my way.
He pretty much had to shake my hand after shaking the 50 or so people’s hands in front of me. When he go to me, the look on his face was one of utter hatred, because I was obviously a leftist Democrat, with a beard. But he shook my hand and went on down the list of people.
I felt OK with it because I think he could tell that I despised him just as just as he hated me for being a hippie Democrat.
Never think the Uncle Joe Manchin is a Democrat! Never!
Paul in KY
@Keith G: ”If properly nurtured’. Key phrase right there.
Paul in KY
@Another Holocene Human: He’s more ‘electable’ in a general election than Sen. Sanders (IMO), if only because he would draw in more ‘independent’ and ‘republican leaning’ voters.
Maybe not so electable in the primaries.