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Everything is totally normal and fine!!!

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The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

The lights are all blinking red.

People are weird.

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Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

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“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

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We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. keep building.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Open Thread: Announcement from the Oval Office

Open Thread: Announcement from the Oval Office

by | 183 Comments

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As described in the Washington Post:

President Obama said in a video that he will lay out his proposal to overhaul the nation’s immigration system Thursday and will travel to Las Vegas following that announcement to rally support for his initiative on Friday…

“Everybody agrees that our immigration system is broken. Unfortunately Washington has allowed the problem to fester for too long,” Obama said. “So what’ I’m going to be laying out is the things I can do with my lawful authority as president to make the system work better even as I continue to work with Congress and encourage them to get a bipartisan, comprehensive bill that can solve the entire problem.”

According to a senior Democrat familiar with the plans, Obama will announce on Thursday that he is providing temporary protections to up to 5 million undocumented immigrants. His orders will make up to 4 million undocumented immigrants eligible for temporary protective status and provide relief to another 1 million through other means.

In a blow to activists advocating on behalf of young immigrant families, there will be no guaranteed protections for the parents of so-called Dreamers — children protected by Obama’s 2012 Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program — nor for immigrant agricultural workers, said the Democrat, who was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

Obama has invited senior lawmakers to the White House for dinner Wednesday night so that he can explain his plans to use executive authority to change the nation’s immigration laws, according to several congressional aides….

Republican Sen. Ted Cruz said Wednesday that Obama will “no doubt threaten a shutdown” with his upcoming executive action on immigration…. Other leading congressional Republicans pleaded with their colleagues Wednesday to tread carefully, underscoring the mounting concerns among party officials over the simmering outrage from conservative lawmakers and its political consequences, particularly with the Hispanic community….

“We hear there will be a prime time Thursday evening announcement [to preview] and full unveiling in Vegas on Friday,” immigration advocate Dawn Le told other activists in an e-mail, which was later inadvertently sent to a group of reporters Wednesday morning. “Can folks begin to work and plan watch parties for Thursday and/or Friday? Unclear whether Thursday night content will be what is ‘celebratory,’ but Friday will be where we need a lot of energy guaranteed.”…

More at the link, and no doubt all over the interwebs. Speculation from last night was that the President’s order would also include some H-1B goodies for the big tech companies.

***********
Apart from prepping, what’s on the agenda for the evening?

Reader Interactions

183Comments

  1. 1.

    dmsilev

    I like how Ted Cruz is blaming Obama for …actions that would be taken by Ted Cruz and his colleagues. “I had no choice. I had to hit her for disrespecting me shut down the government because the President did something I didn’t like”.

  2. 2.

    srv

    Moar cheap coders!

    Maybe I can sublet the living room – 4 bunks at $1K each? I can call it Thiel Palace.

  3. 3.

    BGinCHI

    What happened to the Chamber of Assholes, I mean Commerce and others in the bidness community who were for this?

    Let me guess: hiding their heads in the sand and letting Obama do the hard work and take the heat.

    Profiles in courage.

  4. 4.

    feebog

    Republicans could avoid the wrath of the Hispanic community by simply putting the bi-partisan Senate bill up for a vote in the House during the lame duck session. But of course that would give Obama a “victory”. They would much rather assure that they will lose states like Colorado and Nevada in 2016 than give Obama a “victory”.

  6. 6.

    Hal

    Republican Sen. Ted Cruz said Wednesday that Obama will “no doubt threaten a shutdown” with his upcoming executive action on immigration

    Will our glorious media ever call Cruz out on the fact that the only ones who are talking a shutdown are the Republicans, and specifically, Ted Cruz?

    Anyhow, countdown to heads exploding.

  7. 7.

    John

    Yep, Bobby Jindal pulled the same act on one of the Sunday talk shows last weekend. There is a coordinated effort by the Repubs to shift public blame for their coming actions onto Obama. I wish I could believe that no one will buy it, but I think we know that’s not true. I expect headlines reading something akin to “Republicans ask: Why does Obama keep hitting himself?”

  8. 8.

    dmsilev

    Just for shits and giggles, here’s how RedState spins the announcement:

    This poses an interesting problem for incoming Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. Does he turn his gaze from this brazen lawbreaking or does Obama pay a substantive price for his actions. Having done this, how do either John Boehner or McConnell deal with Obama on anything like a good faith basis for the next two years.

    Because, of course, Orange and the Turtle have just been brimming over with good faith intentions towards the President over the last few years.

  9. 9.

    grandpa john

    @dmsilev: Would anyone be utterly surprised to someday soon see a breaking news flash the an airplane with Cruz on board has “mysteriously crashed”. Somebody in repub leadership is somehow going to rein in this babbling loon before he completely destroys the image of the party

  10. 10.

    Hildebrand

    @dmsilev: Exactly. Just once I would like to hear or see somebody from the mainstream media point out utter knavery of the ‘good faith’ of the Republicans. Just once.

  11. 11.

    Mumbles

    Republican Sen. Ted Cruz said Wednesday that Obama will “no doubt threaten a shutdown” with his upcoming executive action on immigration

    Um…Cruz…you’re the same guy that orchestrated a federal government shutdown…and then protested that same shutdown…alongside a guy waving a confederate flag, in front of the White House. Your credibility is a bit low…

  12. 12.

    Violet

    @dmsilev: Oooh…”brazen lawbreaking”!1!111 That’s good stuff! I hope the lawsuit against President Obama includes whatever this charge is. With added brazen.

  13. 13.

    Kryptik, A Man Without A Country

    @Hildebrand:

    But that would mean that Obama isn’t the hyper-partisan obstructive mega-tyrant the Republicans keep painting him as, and that just can’t be true! He has to be the one to compromise since Republicans have reached across the aisle so much….right? Right?…..

  15. 15.

    Baud

    Republican Sen. Ted Cruz said Wednesday that Obama will “no doubt threaten a shutdown” with his upcoming executive action on immigration….

    That would be the one sure way to ensure that the GOP would be opposed to a shutdown.

  16. 16.

    Howard Beale IV

    @srv: Just what we need: moar unintended indentured slaves to feed the dudebros.

    I still say if you want to have folks want to take your group and its belief’s seriously, you need to find one target and take it out.

    Uber.

  22. 22.

    Mumbles

    Immigrant Ted Cruz says immigration will harm America, threatens to harm America over immigration policy.

    that’s literally where we are.

    Just to be clear, I’m fine with immigration, I’m just saying, Ted Cruz is a damn arsonist, how is it that he’s taken seriously?

  24. 24.

    Gene108

    @feebog:

    It is a calculated risk, which I think worked for them in 2014. Get enough folks discouraged that nothing can change and they will sit home on Election Day.

  25. 25.

    shelley

    Evening’s agenda.? Just trying to stay warm, dammit.
    *************
    But why is Obama making the announcement in Vegas? Am I missing some signifigance?

    I am unable to hear ‘Ted Cruz’ without immediately thinking ‘pissant.’

  26. 26.

    Citizen_X

    @Gene108: It only “worked” because it was immediately followed, and overshadowed, by The Great Website Failure of 2013.

    Now that Obamacare is humming along, and not bringing about the end of the Republic, they don’t have any Obama own-goals to look forward to.

  27. 27.

    Another Holocene Human

    Melissa Block saying some amazingly ignorant authoritarian things (“you in navy. you must do whatever navy says. dumb navy person. lol.”) on the radio just now but at least they let the lawyer have his say.

    Wow. Much journalist. So respect.

  29. 29.

    Roger Moore

    @dmsilev:
    Quoting RedState

    Having done this, how do either John Boehner or McConnell deal with Obama on anything like a good faith basis for the next two years.

    Even if you accept that they were dealing with him in good faith to begin with, how does this represent bad faith on Obama’s part?

  30. 30.

    karen

    So all our tech jobs that actually pay good money will be snarfed up by the H-1B people who get paid at the fraction of the wages they’d pay US citizens. I say US Citizens because these jobs are purposely advertising on India and Philippines websites and they’re closed to US employees.

  33. 33.

    Morzer

    @karen:

    Many of them, yes. It’s perhaps the clearest example of how all the talk of “illegal immigration” misses the real problems with our system by a country mile.

  34. 34.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Violet: Stopping deportation will be good for labor unions, good for the movement and good for wages.

    But don’t tell that to GOP union members. They still believe the stupidity from the Blackshirts in the 1930s South, dusky-hued are taking your wages d000oooowwwwwn.

  35. 35.

    Another Holocene Human

    @karen:

    So all our tech jobs that actually pay good money will be snarfed up by the H-1B people who get paid at the fraction of the wages they’d pay US citizens.

    lolwut he is talking about undocumented people, totally different sector of the economy

    H1B are totally documented, they “suck up” (not) jobs because the employer has control over them that they don’t have over other workers. And because reasons. Reasons meaning the market irrationally thinks it’s good so they can goose options prices and cash out. Sociopaths at play. Doesn’t matter if the deal actually loses them money long term.

  37. 37.

    Trollhattan

    This just in [love typing that] Bera declared winner in CA 7th.

    Whew, that was a close one, especially considering he was behind the day after the election. I’ll bet the ad account reps are still busy drinking their bonuses.

  41. 41.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Another Holocene Human: Any tech worker in the bay area who’s looked for a job recently will tell you there’s no shortage of qualified American applicants; we’re just mildly inconvenient with our desire for ‘living wages’ and ‘not indentured servitude’ and our whole ‘not 100% fully acquainted with whatever random framework you’re demanding we use today’ schtick.

    ETA: Did nobody notice the linked article? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-19/obama-said-to-include-tech-visas-expansion-in-immigration-plan.html#closeConsentTrack

  42. 42.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    This. The motherfucker was born in Canada to Cuban immigrants, and he wants to rail against immigrants? WTF?

    Same reason closet cases make the best gay-baiters.

  49. 49.

    Trollhattan

    @shelley:
    Will speculate it’s due to LV’s overwhelmingly large service staff workforce and the fact that the state should be flippable.

  52. 52.

    Howard Beale IV

    @karen: Actually, they’re advertised with hyperdetailed requirements here first before they get posted overseas-that way they can claim that no one was able to fit the bill.

  53. 53.

    Trollhattan

    @raven:
    Houses on Giant Stilts or are they paying through the nose for their (subsidized) flood insurance? Hard to imagine any planner who can still fog a mirror approving such nonsense.

  54. 54.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Another Holocene Human: Oh, I know. Just speaking from my own ‘expertise’.

    Got some good friends (i know, i know) who are here on H1B’s, nothing against them personally–it’s great for e.g. Indian and Filipino folks in STEM, and their families back home and stuff–but the notion there’s a shortage here is just soooooo disingenuous, especially since half the people pushing it are the ones who made sure to spend the last few decades making sure there would be a shortage.

  55. 55.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Howard Beale IV: A-yup. ‘Tis how the game is played!

    Normalizing relations with certain countries (India is quite doable, Pakistan not any time soon though) could do a lot to end this stupid game which is probably while it won’t happen for another generation.

    I mean look at Cuba. And that was just to enrich one industry (and one company/co-op that threw in the towel more or less anyway when the corn barons muscled in).

  56. 56.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Major Major Major Major: There’s no shortage. It’s all a bunch of lies.

    Just lies to cover more lies. They run these disgusting commercials (usually world’s worst companies, too, like Exxon) about promoting STEM. Just lies to shore up an edifice of lies. I’ve had a ringside seat my whole life.

    As for the labor pressure, there was a period where there were a lot of qualified people overseas who were just this resource waiting to be tapped. Well, that well ran dry a long time ago, there’s no disequilibrium any more. So it just becomes clearer and clearer that’s it’s all about an end-run against what little remains of our labor laws since technical people have been reclassed to avoid NLRB since ages ago anyway. H1B removes the potential for lawsuits. It’s also favored by people who are sadistic in a very … personal way.

    Ugh. GTG. See BJ later.

  59. 59.

    Baud

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    May have been a law professor, but there is no legal principle I’m aware of conditions the President’s authority on whether his party won the midterms.

    ETA: At least not until the Supreme 5 get their mitts on it.

  64. 64.

    raven

    @Trollhattan: I think they are mostly built up but the one that is one house down was built on a slab and got waxed even before it was finished. We are one 30A between Panama City and Destin.

  67. 67.

    dance around in your bones

    I just fucking LOVE Obama – I wish he weren’t married and had two kids or I’d move on that dude in a moment.

    We’re gonna miss miss him when he’s gone.

  71. 71.

    Howard Beale IV

    @Another Holocene Human: What’s sorta nice now is that in some domains that game can no longer be played, and the cost of training a replacement easily runs into six figures-we all know where everybody works, and when someone dies. The only question becomes if/when will the corporation decide to pull the trigger and replace the core system-and if/when they do, it will easily be a cool half billion dollar bill-if not more-and with a metric shitton of risk along the way-and heaven help them if it fails; never mind the fact the the people who have to keep the legacy systems alive are retiring/dying.

  75. 75.

    srv

    @Major Major Major Major: I do not understand why you olds will not learn django or drupal, wear flannel, work 3000 hours a year and live in my basement for $80K a year.

    Just think of your grandparents having to walk uphill both ways to get a loaf of bread.

  77. 77.

    Suffern ACE

    Yay! My all regions DVD player finally came so I can actually watch stuff that the powers that be say is too foreign for my eyes. (Yes, I know I can watch most of these things online illegally, but I still try to pay for things so people will make more things. I’m fighting a losing battle).

    On the negative side, the instructions aren’t in a language known to me. I wonder if Armenian grey market was the best way to go.

  81. 81.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @dance around in your bones:

    I agree! He’s gorgeous to look at, but more to the point, he is super smart and genuinely witty, both of which are (to me) terribly sexy.

    Yes, I will miss him when he’s out of office. On the other hand, he can’t very well be expected to write his no-holds-barred memoirs while he’s still in the Oval, and I for one am looking forward to plenty of dishing on Orange Julius, Turtle, and so many more, maybe even Hillary if we’re lucky (although if she ends up being POTUS, I imagine he’d soft-pedal that).

  85. 85.

    Morzer

    @srv:

    (In the voice of Ted Cruz):

    Those grandparents were paid a free market wage by me and they knew they could always leave my attic anytime they wanted, once they’d paid off their arrears of rent!

  86. 86.

    Roger Moore

    @? Martin:

    So did we actually pick up a seat this cycle?

    In the House. I think we lost a couple of seats in the Assembly and the state Senate so that the Democrats don’t have a 2/3 majority anymore.

  87. 87.

    Howard Beale IV

    @srv: Sorry, but I’ve been working on core back-ends that actually been getting shit done for decades.

  88. 88.

    Cervantes

    @Baud:

    He begins with the Supreme Court’s unanimous holding against Obama’s recess appointments in NLRB v. Noel Canning and goes on (ostensibly) to place that decision

    in the context of the President’s unilateral action with respect to modifying the Affordable Care Act, Deferred Action immigration policy, as well as the detainee release for Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, and the “hostilities” in Libya. For each action, in the face of congressional opposition, the President executes at his “lowest ebb,” and warrants the closest scrutiny. In the domestic affairs context, the President can rely only on his “corrective powers,” which allow him to correct the political process, and achieve what a reasonable congress would have done. This novel constitutional philosophy, while defensible in theory, falls apart in practice, with unseen costs to the separation of powers.

    That’s from the abstract of one of his recent “working papers.”

    @Another Holocene Human:

    @Litlebritdifrnt: This. The motherfucker was born in Canada to Cuban immigrants, and he wants to rail against immigrants? WTF?

    Same reason closet cases make the best gay-baiters.

    His father was a Cuban immigrant. His mother was not.

  93. 93.

    dance around in your bones

    @SiubhanDuinne: I, for one, cannot WAIT until he (AND Michelle!!) write their memoirs!! I bet they will be memorable.

    ALSO! I have listened to X for years (AND seen them live many times) but I’ve never heard these songs – on Pandora

    …..don’t know if it will play for y’all. just make an X channel and yer good to go.

    It’s a demo tape, I think…..

  95. 95.

    dance around in your bones

    @Morzer: Morzer, you make me laugh like my husband used to.,

    No offense Ms Morzer!! Be happy you got a dude who makes you laugh !!!!

  97. 97.

    Arm The Homeless

    @raven:

    Much of the Redneck Riviera is in flux. The new houses, for the most part, are built on piers/pilings. Its the houses built prior to the mid-80’s flood maps which keep skirting the line by not elevating. The problem is that the NFIP regulations don’t mean much if you can buy a house outright, or if you know the floodplain management system well enough to phase improvements to avoid hitting the 50% of pre-construction value limits which would mandate elevation.

    TL;DR >> Flood Insurance: Too much carrot, not enough stick.

  98. 98.

    Baud

    @Cervantes:

    Separation of powers is the big new thing in wingnut circles. I don’t think there has been any administration in recent history that hasn’t had one or more of its decisions struck down by the courts as unlawful. It’s a normal thing, and it usually hasn’t led to long-winded disquisitions about separation of powers.

  102. 102.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Baud:

    Separation of powers is the big new thing in wingnut circles.

    I’m so old I remember when the unitary executive was the big new thing in wingnut circles! It’s almost as though their Constitutional theory reflects that only Republican power is broad and legitimate.

  106. 106.

    trollhattan

    @? Martin:
    Held the seat. Bera was Class of ’12 and considered vulnerable, so the Republicans targeted the seat. This unleashed an unimaginable cash torrent, mostly dark money, making it one of if not the nation’s most expensive House races.

    I’m hoping every Ose donor is choking on his bank statement tonight.

  107. 107.

    Morzer

    @Bob In Portland:

    Ah, it’s our token Russian Neo-Nazi popping up to troll the threads again. What is it this time, Blobby? Joe Biden and the Milk Marketing Board conspiring to force innocent little Russian tank brigades over the border for the EEEEVIL YOUCRANIANS to use as target practice with their slingshots and paper planes?

    And no, I am not wasting time on another of your false flag links. You haven’t got enough game to remotely interest me and I don’t care about your sister’s one weird trick that earns her 40 kajillion quatloos a week while she works from home.

  108. 108.

    Morzer

    @dance around in your bones:

    He never did get back to me about those Russian Neo-Nazis either. Funny how selective his vision of Holy Mother Russia is. I guess the sunlight from Putin’s little gold swastika nipple-rings must have gotten in his eyes.

  110. 110.

    Bob In Portland

    @dance around in your bones: And what note might that be? It must be a note that everyone here is incurious about, afraid of, or maybe intellectually challenged to deal with.

    So what note might that be? Oh, no, let’s talk about how we never get what we want from elections. Which is the same damned note, only you’re tone-deaf.

  111. 111.

    Morzer

    @Bob In Portland:

    Learned any Russian or Ukrainian yet, Blobby? Or are you still trying to con the world into taking Russia Today seriously?

    Note to Comrade President Nipple-Ring-Dazzle Putin:

    Get some better trolls, because your useful idiot in Portland just ain’t worth the kopecks.

  112. 112.

    Bob In Portland

    @Morzer: Morzer, what is your obsession with Russian neo-Nazis? There are Nazis in America. You worry about them? There are Nazis in Ukraine, and the US has been nurturing them for SEVENTY years.

    If you are worried about Nazis, you should read up on WACL. Lots of Nazis to worry about.

    You might have to read quite a bit of the book that I linked to before you come across Ukraine. No mention of it in the first chapter.

  114. 114.

    dance around in your bones

    @Morzer: I love “Blobby” (yer term, I mean.)

    BIP – it’s just that the ONLY fucking thing you EVER talk about here is your obsession with Putin The Shirtless.

    Gets old, dude.

  115. 115.

    Bob In Portland

    @Cervantes: Have you read it already? I just started, but I’ve read a few excerpts floating around the web. My significant other is off for a long weekend having to do some unpleasant family business and I’ve got three books to read: Scott’s, a book about nonsense by a prof at Berkeley, and a thin little volume about the making of the Beach Boys’ “Smile.”

    I would hope that people like Morzer and others here would actually try to grasp the idea of the “Deep State” instead of attacking anyone who mentions it. Even if he refuses to believe it (and that requires a lot of mental gymnastics at this late stage) at least there is a possibility that he could talk intelligently about the subject.

  116. 116.

    Morzer

    @dance around in your bones:

    I think Blobby is trying to reinvent himself from Putin-fellating conspiracy theory crackpot to just a conspiracy theory crackpot who occasionally slips in an occasional episode of Putin-fellation using the sins of BIDENAmerica!!! in the YOUCRANE as an excuse.

    He’s not too quick on his feet is our Blobby.

    And just to give the troll a tingle:

    PUTIN NIPPLES GOLDEN SWASTIKA NIPPLE-RINGS BARECHESTED RUSSIAN MANHOOD IN A TOTALLY HETERO BUDDIES IN THE SHOWER KIND OF WAY

  117. 117.

    Bob In Portland

    @dance around in your bones: And yet I don’t talk about Putin except pretty much in response to blathering about him. I just don’t go along with demonizing someone when the demonization is part of a plan for people who are attempting to screw the average American is making money on it. Plus, there’s always the problem with people getting killed.

    Was the demonization of Saddam helpful to you? Was it helpful to the US and its citizens? How about the demonization of Osama bin Laden? Ho Chi Minh? The Ayatollah? Assad? The guy in fancy sunglasses down in Nicaragua? Or hadn’t you noticed the process of demonization that our media seems to default to at the behest of our leaders?

  118. 118.

    Bob In Portland

    @Morzer: Morzer, this is the level of your intellect. Men who like to insult people and kinda gay bash usually have some personal issues they need to face. And that’s fine, but I’m not discussing your personal problems. Maybe you can put up a post about your fears and your curiosity about things and we can have a nice discussion about them.

    In the meantime, how does demonization make your life better?

  119. 119.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    It must be a note that everyone here is incurious about, afraid of, or maybe intellectually challenged to deal with.

    Or just bored with, since it’s the only note you know and you keep playing it over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over. and over.

  120. 120.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    There are Nazis in America. You worry about them? There are Nazis in Ukraine, and the US has been nurturing them for SEVENTY years.

    Uh, if there are Nazis in America, and America has been supporting Nazis in Ukraine for (as you claim) 70 years, doesn’t that mean that Nazis control our government? I’m really not getting this line you’re drawing between Nazis in America and Nazis who control America.

  121. 121.

    dance around in your bones

    @Morzer: Jezuz FUCK you make me laugh!!!

    Bippy/Bloggy not so much. I know he’s trying to be all serious and shit, but he just comes across as kinda OCD on this particular topic.

    At least I try to tell entertaining stories :)

  122. 122.

    dance around in your bones

    @Bob In Portland:

    Was the demonization of Saddam helpful to you? Was it helpful to the US and its citizens? How about the demonization of Osama bin Laden? Ho Chi Minh? The Ayatollah? Assad? The guy in fancy sunglasses down in Nicaragua?

    Ah – to be serious here for a minute, NO, NO, NO NO and NO!

    I ain’t stupid. And I know our country frequently IS.

  124. 124.

    Morzer

    @dance around in your bones:

    I strongly suspect that Blobby just wants to get laid, preferably by an older Russian man who rides horses with his NIPPLES showing.

    I don’t judge others for their fetishes and cravings, but I’d have thought a profile on OKCupid in the Ethnic Russian BDSM category might produce better results for Comrade Blobbykov in Putinland.

  126. 126.

    Morzer

    @Bob In Portland:

    Picture yourself in a boat on the river
    With studly old Russian with leather-clad thighs
    Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly
    A man with those KGB eyes….

  127. 127.

    dance around in your bones

    @Morzer: Well, I’t ain’t gonna be ME, babe. ’cause #1 I am a femme., and #2 I izn’t interestedI

    Maybe Putin The Shirtless would be….

    @Morzer: Jeebus, you just made made me have to stifle myself AGAIN so as to not annoy my roommates .

    You Inglorious Bastard!!!

  128. 128.

    Bob In Portland

    @dance around in your bones: Demonization is usually a process done prior to the next act (coup, war, destabilization). The fact that you realize that puts you a level higher than Morzer. But if you are curious, you might ask yourself how come it happens over and over and who benefits. Or we can talk about Morzer’s imaginary nipple rings.

  131. 131.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    You’re the one who compared your love of Russian aggression to Oscar Wilde’s “love that dare not speak its name.” Or did you not realize that was the source of the quote?

    And I’m still trying to figure out the bright line between Nazis in America and Nazis controlling the American government that you seem to see. You seem to think there’s some huge difference since you keep earnestly saying that Russian Nazis don’t matter because American Nazis exist, but insist at the same time that Nazis control the US government. Can you explain it to those of us who, unlike you, are not actually high right now?

  132. 132.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: I wasn’t referring to Oscar Wilde, I was referring to people who say I talk only about one thing but can’t seem to say what that is. Like you.

    Let’s talk about Obama!

    Do you think that there are repetitions of topics here or that every post is a shiny new topic? And what about the last seventy years of America’s history are you afraid of talking about? And how does pointing out the demonization of enemies, followed by wars, coups, massive spending, millions of deaths, hurt the level of intellectual discussion here?

    Have you ever read Peter Dale Scott? Which books?

  133. 133.

    dance around in your bones

    @Bob In Portland:Dude, don’t take yerself so seriously. Some of us have thought about these issues A FUCK OF A LOT!!!!!!!~

    Jeebus, I was in Afghanistan when the fucking Soviets came in. There was a curfew and tanks on every corner and our next door neighbor Ambassador Adolph Dubs was fucking assassinated during some weird ‘kidnapping’ attack.

    Don’t tell me about being fucking naive. Fuck that shit. You don’t know who anyone on the Internet is, unless you assume they are a dog’

    I’m kinda killing my keyboard from hitting the keys so hard, so I think I’ll just go listen to some more music before I stroke out on your worthless ass.

  134. 134.

    Morzer

    @dance around in your bones:

    Those were not real Soviets who invaded Afghanistan. That is being Joe Biden Panzer Division of Ukrainian Neo-Nazis!

    Anyway, time for me to go to the Namdaemum market with Madame Morzer. Keep Blobby on his leash and away from strange Russian men offering him candy until I come back.

    Do svidanya, comrades all!

  135. 135.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    I wasn’t referring to Oscar Wilde, I was referring to people who say I talk only about one thing but can’t seem to say what that is. Like you.

    Dude, you’re the one who paraphrased Wilde’s famous quote, not me. If you didn’t know what it meant, you should have looked it up first.

    And I did say what your love is. It’s right there in the very first sentence of my comment. Starts with “your love of …” if you have trouble finding the first sentence.

  136. 136.

    dance around in your bones

    @Morzer: Gawd damn, can you make me laugh any MORE tonight??!!

    Could you come live with me? Or would Mrs Morzer object? hahahhahaha!!

    (Not said seriously, dude)

    Danke Schane, Tashakor, Muchas Gracias hermano :)

  137. 137.

    Cervantes

    @Bob In Portland:

    My significant other is off for a long weekend having to do some unpleasant family business and I’ve got three books to read: Scott’s, a book about nonsense by a prof at Berkeley, and a thin little volume about the making of the Beach Boys’ “Smile.”

    I’ve known Peter a long time. His stuff is generally worth reading. (He taught at Berkeley, too, for a while, by the way.)

    I would hope that people like Morzer and others here would actually try to grasp the idea of the “Deep State” instead of attacking anyone who mentions it. Even if he refuses to believe it (and that requires a lot of mental gymnastics at this late stage) at least there is a possibility that he could talk intelligently about the subject.

    Not following the back-and-forth so I can’t really comment.

  138. 138.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: No, in fact while I’m familiar with the term I did not know it had anything to do with Oscar Wilde. Again, I was referring to how people around here avoid any discussion of the deep state. And, in fact, a lot of people here treat the topic like what was once considered deviant sexuality. Don’t you prefer that people are being honest about sexuality now than in the past when everyone was closeted? Don’t you think that discussing the scary things you are afraid of helps you to understand them and make them not so scary?

    I don’t give a shit about the personal attacks here. I started reading this blog back when Cole was a Republican. I realize that things have changed here, and there can be intelligent discussions on some topics here. But I find it utterly appalling how you people continue to bemoan the state of America without examining the state of America. Scott’s book is a broad overview of the state of the US. It would seem to me that people who have a concern about what America has become would like to see an explanation. Apparently not. Certainly not you, Mnem.

    So if you don’t want to discuss the state of our nation because you are afraid to, don’t discuss it.

    Why do you think that the DLC brand of politics keeps getting more powerful within the Democratic Party when they keep losing elections? You see, that’s topical. That’s right here, right now. And that’s part of what is happening to our democracy. But until you look behind the curtain you will only see our country’s slide along this reactionary, undemocratic road, and you will be powerless.

  139. 139.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: Dudette, why are you so afraid of discussing the deep state that you can’t get beyond trying to smear me (rather bizarrely) with Oscar Wilde?

    Rewind. Someone accused me of fellating Putin and only talking about one topic when I actually shared a link to a new book about America by Professor Peter Dale Scott. Did you look at the link before you started throwing Oscar Wilde at me? Maybe you just didn’t understand what I was talking about, which should be cautionary for you. At least you might look at the links before responding.

  140. 140.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    Uh, if there are Nazis in America, and America has been supporting Nazis in Ukraine for (as you claim) 70 years, doesn’t that mean that Nazis control our government? I’m really not getting this line you’re drawing between Nazis in America and Nazis who control America.

    “Uh, if there are Jews in America, and America has been supporting Jews in Israel for (nearly) 70 years, doesn’t that mean that Jews control our government? I’m really not getting this line you’re drawing between Jews in America and Jews who control America.”

    Surely, you jest.

  141. 141.

    Bob In Portland

    @Cervantes: Yes, and for awhile the UC press printed his books. Writes poetry too. “Coming To Jakarta” isn’t about a stopover on the way to Bali.

  143. 143.

    Bob In Portland

    @dance around in your bones: Too bad you’ve left. You might ask yourself why you’d stroke out about me putting a link to a new book that I’m reading.

    As far as you being in Afghanistan when the Soviets rolled in, your point is that you understand the concept of the deep state? If so, please share.

    Or does being in Afghanistan mean that you’re not naive, meaning you’ve seen people killed or some sort of thing that gives you intellectual street cred for not knowing or wanting to discuss the deep state?

    And if you don’t want to discuss the book or the deep state, then why even comment. Feel the need to keep the lid on it?

  144. 144.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: Try this. There are no “ifs” here. The US used Nazis after WWII, mainly as intelligence assets, but many others also.

    But there were many Wall Streeters who supported Nazis before and during WWII. You know that Prescott Bush handled a portfolio of Nazi investments, right? But the Harriman in Brown Brothers Harriman was a big-time Dem, and they handled Nazi investments too.

    So maybe you’d do better to talk about Wall Streeters. They’re still here and they control the country, right? And we can talk about all the different kinds of Nazis there are.

    You know, there are the Nazis who drink lite beer, get swastika tattoos and cherish their only accomplishment, being born white. There are the next level of Nazis, who read. Then there are the Nazis who get together and plan, or just randomly shoot up a church or synagogue.

    But those Nazis, like the guy who shot four non-Jews near Kansas City because he wanted to kill Jews, are the kind you find in every country. But the Wall Streeters and their Nazis, now that’s something you’re probably afraid to look into.

    In the late seventies I got drunk with a coworker who eventually went into the State Department. He told me, quite seriously like he was letting me in on a secret, that some people thought the Nazis had the right idea. Not killing the Jews, mind you, but generally.

    As far as I know he’s probably around retirement age now. He married a woman from “Rhodesia” (this was after the advent of Zimbabwe so the anachronism was not casual). He used to take bike trips through the Bekaa Valley and just happened to be out of his office when the rocket came through the window. Then I lost touch with him. I wonder who his “some people” were. A professor of his at the University of San Francisco? Someone who recruited him? He was in the Mekong Delta with the Navy. How could he have been so sure he was going into the State Department?

    All questions you needn’t bother yourself with.

    I mean, why should you worry about Nazis? We’ve had two Presidents in your lifetime whose father/grandfather violated the “Trading With The Enemy Act” and that enemy was Nazi Germany.

    But then maybe money makes everything excusable in America.

  145. 145.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    I’ve pointed out to you before that the United States was a fascist state before fascism was cool, and yet you act as though somehow the Nazis “took over” the United States. The “deep state” you’re complaining about dates back to at least Woodrow Wilson and his support of Jim Crow and the vicious reversal of the advancements that had survived after Reconstruction was prematurely ended.

    The Nazis didn’t co-opt us. We co-opted them.

  146. 146.

    dance around in your bones

    @Bob In Portland: Yeah, you fucking shit, I have seen truckloads of dead bodies and known people who were killed in that stupid fucking war we got into late and I have no illusions about the state of our nation.

    We’re fucked, we’ve been fucked for a long time, and I don’t think we’ll get unfucked anytime soon.You have NOT discovered anything new, is what I am saying,. so get a fucking grip.

  147. 147.

    Mnemosyne

    @dance around in your bones:

    Keep in mind, in BiP’s brain, actually knowing something about a subject or having traveled to the country is question is automatically suspicious. If you didn’t get your knowledge of a subject from books and other people’s translations, you obviously don’t have the right beliefs.

  150. 150.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’ve pointed out to you before that the United States was a fascist state before fascism was cool, and yet you act as though somehow the Nazis “took over” the United States. The “deep state” you’re complaining about dates back to at least Woodrow Wilson and his support of Jim Crow and the vicious reversal of the advancements that had survived after Reconstruction was prematurely ended. The Nazis didn’t co-opt us. We co-opted them.

    Interesting. And from this perspective, when did the US stop being “a fascist state”? Or is it still one?

  151. 151.

    Cervantes

    @dance around in your bones:

    Yeah, you fucking shit, I have seen truckloads of dead bodies and known people who were killed in that stupid fucking war we got into late and I have no illusions about the state of our nation. We’re fucked, we’ve been fucked for a long time, and I don’t think we’ll get unfucked anytime soon.You have NOT discovered anything new, is what I am saying,. so get a fucking grip.

    Are you saying it’s not so much that you disagree with Bob In Portland? — you already know everything he has “discovered” — so it’s more that you don’t like his tone or his focus?

    What does he think he has discovered that you find to be old hat? And whatever it is, should it be borne in silence now or should anything be done about it?

  152. 152.

    Cervantes

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    We just don’t accept that the Gehlen Org. has run everything since 1945.

    I assume you agree that both Gehlen and his organization were real, and that both became the CIA-sponsored West German intelligence apparatus after WWII.

    Meanwhile, I agree with you, of course, that no one has “run everything since 1945.”

    Trivial fact: other than Gehlen’s intelligence operation, the only other Nazi institutions that were allowed (by the US) to proceed virtually unmolested in situ after WWII were the Post Office and, strangely enough, the railways.

  153. 153.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cervantes:

    And from this perspective, when did the US stop being “a fascist state”?

    1965, though of course we are still in transition and constantly fighting against those who want to take us back to being a fascist state where only the “right” people are allowed to vote.

  154. 154.

    Morzer

    @Cervantes:

    What exactly are you trying to say that BiP has “discovered”? The guy has one modus operandi – to throw a variety of unconnected facts together, offer unsupported assertions, and say in a portentous voice “See.. I told you they were lying to you!” Hell, the guy doesn’t even read Russian by his own admission – and it’s never stopped him making ludicrous claims about Russian foreign policy (or, for that matter, conspiracy theories about Ukrainian Neo-Nazis, while totally ignoring the fact that Russia has, for years now, been one of the major centers of neo-Nazism). If his approach discovers any truth, it’s that people with obsessions don’t in fact “discover” anything except their own fantasies being “confirmed” by random “facts” that calmer, more detached minds can clearly see do nothing of the sort. We’ve had months of derangement from BiP about how the Ukrainians are evil fascists while the Russians are saintly liberals at play in the fields of the Lord and doing his work. If people are sick of this and have given up pointing out the numerous evidentiary and logical flaws in BiP’s rants in favor of rolling their eyes and laughing, the guy has earned the mockery a thousand times over.

  155. 155.

    dance around in your bones

    @Cervantes:

    As I said in my FIRST comment to BIP, it’s the one note (perhaps you’d prefer One Trick Pony) bit of his that fry’s my eggs. YMMV.

    ETA: Or what Morzer said, ever so much more elegantly than moi.

  156. 156.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cervantes:

    Also, too, BiP probably would get more traction if he hadn’t decided that a commenter who knows Ukrainian and contradicted some of what BiP said had Nazi relatives because of course all Ukrainians are Nazis and anyone who speaks Ukrainian was raised to be a Nazi. This then spun out into Ukraine only wanting to be independent from Russia because they’re Nazis, everyone who ever fought for Ukrainian independence was a Nazi, etc. etc. etc.

    I think that was the breaking point for most of us. BiP seems motivated less by his beliefs in the “deep state” and more by his virulent hatred of Ukrainians (or “Ukies,” as he likes to call them).

  157. 157.

    Cervantes

    @Morzer:

    What exactly are you trying to say that BiP has “discovered”?

    That was not a word I introduced; I was quoting someone else and asking her about it.

  158. 158.

    Cervantes

    @dance around in your bones:

    As I said in my FIRST comment to BIP, it’s the one note (perhaps you’d prefer One Trick Pony) bit of his that fry’s my eggs.

    Right, so it’s his focus or single-mindedness that you don’t like. As you said:

    I have no illusions about the state of our nation. We’re fucked, we’ve been fucked for a long time, and I don’t think we’ll get unfucked anytime soon.You have NOT discovered anything new, is what I am saying,. so get a fucking grip.

    Which is why I asked: “What does he think he has discovered that you find to be old hat? And whatever it is, should it be borne in silence now or should anything be done about it?”

  159. 159.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    @Cervantes: And from this perspective, when did the US stop being “a fascist state”?

    1965, though of course we are still in transition and constantly fighting against those who want to take us back to being a fascist state where only the “right” people are allowed to vote.

    Was Sparta fascist? How about Athens?

  160. 160.

    dance around in your bones

    @Mnemosyne: Yeah – you know how he always asks Gin & Tonic how he learned to speak Ukrainian? Or Russian, I forget.

    Like THAT’S some kinda deep truth – the ability to speak another language.

    ? “Todo está bien chévere!! I speak very very fluent Spanish! ?

    (Stevie Wonder, for those not in the know)

  161. 161.

    dance around in your bones

    @Cervantes: I feel like replying “Cervantes, you sanctimonious slut!”

    That’s an early SNL ref, if ya don’t get it, slightly altered for you and BiP.

    Why you make me mad in the morning? My tea isn’t even finished!

  163. 163.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    Also, too, BiP probably would get more traction if he hadn’t decided that a commenter who knows Ukrainian and contradicted some of what BiP said had [1] Nazi relatives because of course [2] all Ukrainians are Nazis and [3] anyone who speaks Ukrainian was raised to be a Nazi. This then spun out into [4] Ukraine only wanting to be independent from Russia because they’re Nazis, [5] everyone who ever fought for Ukrainian independence was a Nazi, etc. etc. etc.

    [1] proves nothing, of course.

    And assertions [2]-[5] are all nonsense, of course, and I hope no one is making them.

    BiP seems motivated less by his beliefs in the “deep state” and more by his virulent hatred of Ukrainians (or “Ukies,” as he likes to call them).

    There may be arguments to be had, but I see no need to speculate re motivations.

  165. 165.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’m not giving examples. I asked the two questions (about Athens and Sparta) because I’m trying to understand your unusual definition of “a fascist state” (the definition that includes the US pre-1965).

  166. 166.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cervantes:

    And assertions [2]-[5] are all nonsense, of course, and I hope no one is making them.

    Bob in Portland is making them. If you don’t believe me, Google it for yourself. Try “banderists site:balloon-juice.com” since you don’t seem to believe me. “Ukies site:balloon-juice.com” would probably give some pertinent examples as well.

    BiP is shocked, shocked that the people he verbally abuses abuse him back. I say, tough shit.

  168. 168.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cervantes:

    You can argue with the Holocaust Museum Houston about my “unusual definition,” if you like. It’s not exactly a secret that the Nuremberg Laws were taken directly from the US’s Jim Crow laws.

    That exhibition may still be traveling — perhaps you should see if there’s Holocaust museum near you that’s hosting it so you can see for yourself since you don’t seem to believe me.

    Though it’s true that Omnes Omnibus has argued with me in the past that I should call what the US had “proto-fascism” since our version had the race-based oppression without the corporate cooperation of classic fascism. His argument seemed to be that the Nazis and other European fascists built their regimes from the base that the US created but the US was never a fully developed fascist state like, say, Spain.

  169. 169.

    dance around in your bones

    @Cervantes: You are too fucking serious!

    Like raven says, FIDO – fuck it and drive on! I like to laugh, and I like to sing, and there ain’t a damn thing I can do about anything but vote every couple of years. I’m not gonna run for Congress or anything anytime soon.

    So sue me.

    eta: Thanks Mnem – all y’all are so much more eloquent than me.

  172. 172.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    You can argue with the Holocaust Museum Houston about my “unusual definition,” if you like. It’s not exactly a secret that the Nuremberg Laws were taken directly from the US’s Jim Crow laws.

    Similarities you perceive between Jim Crow and the Nuremberg Laws do not make the pre-1965 USA “a fascist state,” and the page you cite does not even attempt such an argument.

    That exhibition may still be traveling — perhaps you should see if there’s Holocaust museum near you that’s hosting it so you can see for yourself since you don’t seem to believe me.

    I’m sorry to say that, in my opinion, you missed the point of the exhibit. The curators’ goal is not to blame the Nuremberg Laws on the United States. They are trying to remind people that the evil the Nazis did was not unique — we can’t just say or pretend that it was an entirely foreign evil — and that therefore we should be vigilant about our own tendencies rather than self-satisfied about (technically) not having been “Nazis.”

    Though it’s true that Omnes Omnibus has argued with me in the past that I should call what the US had “proto-fascism” since our version had the race-based oppression without the corporate cooperation of classic fascism.

    Possibly relevant:

    Paxton, Robert O.
    The Anatomy of Fascism.
    New York: Knopf, 2004.

    And while I’m sure you’ve heard of Father Coughlin and his movement, you might appreciate the discussion found in:

    Lipset, Seymour Martin & Earl Raab.
    The Politics of Unreason.
    New York: Harper & Row, 1970.

    As I recall, Lipset and Raab argue that it was Coughlin who led “America’s most distinctively ‘fascist’ movement.”

    In fact, if you look in Gallup’s archives you will find polls indicating that popular approval of Coughlin peaked in 1938 at … 27%.

    While the number is amusing enough, it’s no indication that America was “a fascist state.”

    His argument seemed to be that the Nazis and other European fascists built their regimes from the base that the US created but the US was never a fully developed fascist state like, say, Spain.

    I know better than to comment on what someone else’s argument “seemed to be.”

  174. 174.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cervantes:

    Similarities you perceive between Jim Crow and the Nuremberg Laws do not make the pre-1965 USA “a fascist state,” and the page you cite does not even attempt such an argument.

    Shall we ask the people who survived living under Jim Crow if they felt they were living in a fascist state?

  175. 175.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    Sure, and don’t forget to ask the Spartans, not to mention the Athenians.

    While you’re at it you can also ask the Tea Party.

    Yours is an unusual mode of analysis so I’m genuinely curious: do let me know what you find.

  177. 177.

    J R in WV

    “Deep State” ?? wtf??

    I’ve been on the innertubes since we used rubber earpieces to fasten to a telephone handset to connect, and don’t recall Deep State as a conspiracy I need to know about. (And if you’re thinking that must have sucked, it did, and it was slow, but at least the weather didn’t affect your ability to connect, as long as you still got a dial-tone)

    So if you got the links, post ’em right here!

    T’anks

  178. 178.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cervantes:

    Sure, and don’t forget to ask the Spartans, not to mention the Athenians.

    Yes, it’s far more relevant to look at the events of 500 BC than the events of 1965. I’m sure the Germans were more influenced by the Spartans than by Jim Crow and the American eugenics movement. Any similarities are purely superficial.

    While you’re at it you can also ask the Tea Party.

    I think the only person here who doesn’t realize the Tea Party is motivated by racism and opposition to civil rights may be you. Otherwise, I’m not sure what the point is of bringing them up to prove that the US was not a fascist state prior to 1964/1965.

  179. 179.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    In that article the author refers to WWII as “the democratic crusade against the Fascists” — and you think she’s arguing that the US pre-1965 was “a fascist state”?

  180. 180.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yes, it’s far more relevant to look at the events of 500 BC than the events of 1965. I’m sure the Germans were more influenced by the Spartans than by Jim Crow and the American eugenics movement. Any similarities are purely superficial.

    You explained your notion that the US pre-1965 was “a fascist state” by referring to Jim Crow “where only the ‘right’ people are allowed to vote.” If that’s your definition of “a fascist state,” do you really not see why it’s relevant then to ask about Sparta and, more to the point, Athens?

    I think the only person here who doesn’t realize the Tea Party is motivated by racism and opposition to civil rights may be you. Otherwise, I’m not sure what the point is of bringing them up to prove that the US was not a fascist state prior to 1964/1965.

    I wasn’t trying to prove anything. You were — remember?

    As for why bring up the Tea Party? Well, wasn’t it your idea that we can find out whether people are citizens of “a fascist state” by asking them? As I said, I am rather curious about this mode of analysis.

  181. 181.

    dance around in your bones

    @Mnemosyne: Jeez, Mnem – stop arguing with this persona.

    Much better to go fuck G instead :) You can tell him I said that.

    ETA: I can’t help but think of that scene in Airplane! when the pilot asked the kid “Do you like gladiators, son?! ” hahhhahahhahahahahha

  183. 183.

    Cervantes

    @karen:

    Those are awful people, no question about it.

    In a sane polity, they would be nowhere near the levers of power.

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