• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I would try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” was supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

The unpunished coup was a training exercise.

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

We can show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

The press swings at every pitch, we don’t have to.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

In my day, never was longer.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Republicans cannot even be trusted with their own money.

The desire to stay informed is directly at odds with the need to not be constantly enraged.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Mobile Menu

  • Seattle Meet-up Post
  • 2025 Activism
  • Targeted Political Fundraising
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • COVID-19
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • 2025 Activism
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • Targeted Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Gates going down

Gates going down

by David Anderson|  February 23, 201812:32 pm| 297 Comments

This post is in: All we want is life beyond the thunderdome

FacebookTweetEmail

Here we go with Gates: A superseding information — not indictment — filed in DC. Two counts: Conspiracy against the US and false statement. https://t.co/Khxdaultej / Follow @ZoeTillman, who is at court, for the latest. pic.twitter.com/K0hcDaMib9

— Chris Geidner (@chrisgeidner) February 23, 2018

and from a trained observer and commenter we get some rapid reaction:

You don’t give Gates this generous of a deal unless his “Queen for the Day” proffer was something significant and material. https://t.co/9LjsmZ5MIJ

— Bradley P. Moss (@BradMossEsq) February 23, 2018

Update 1 The false statement charge refers to a Member of Congress in 2013. Is that relevant? If so, who would it be?

UPDATE 1B: The Congress critter is most likely Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) and Putin stooge

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Gates Cooperating?
Next Post: I Took All of His Money and I Brought it Home to Jenny »

Reader Interactions

297Comments

  1. 1.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:34 pm

    All these indictments and plea deals make me think about Dick Mayhew. Haven’t seen that guy in a while and it makes me wonder just how deeply he was involved in the Trump campaign.

  2. 2.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:35 pm

    This fucking Good Ole Petey Williams is trash, just pure damn trash.

  3. 3.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 23, 2018 at 12:36 pm

    IANAL, so can someone explain this to me? Is this paring down all previous indictments to just Conspiracy Against the US and False Statements to the FBI?

    If so, that’s a HELL of a deal. I can’t imagine what he can give Mueller for that unless it’s pretty damning, and not just on Manafort. Though I suppose it could also be about significant other lawbreaking he’s aware of that isn’t related to Mueller Russia investigation. That’s possible.

    @Corner Stone: He probably changed his name and went underground.

  4. 4.

    LAO

    February 23, 2018 at 12:38 pm

    As to Moss’ tweet, what is even more incredible is that Mueller is still offering cooperation while charging Gates with lying to federal investigators during his 2/1/18 proffer session.

  5. 5.

    But her emails!!!

    February 23, 2018 at 12:38 pm

    This is sooooo boooorrinngggg. In before the trolls!

  6. 6.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 12:38 pm

    @Corner Stone

    Word was he worked for Balloon Juice for nothing.

    ;)

  7. 7.

    Miss Bianca

    February 23, 2018 at 12:39 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: I dunno…*just* “conspiracy against the US” sounds like a Big Fucking Biden Deal to me. But IANAL.

  8. 8.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 12:39 pm

    I really like that the rotating tag for this thread was: This is a big f—–g deal. How appropriate!

  9. 9.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:40 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:

    If so, that’s a HELL of a deal. I can’t imagine what he can give Mueller for that unless it’s pretty damning, and not just on Manafort.

    Gates isn’t really guilty of anything but he knew the relentlessly corrupt FBI would manufacture some cooked up BS evidence against him. So he took the deal because really, he just wants to spend more time with his family.

  10. 10.

    lollipopguild

    February 23, 2018 at 12:40 pm

    Tick Tock! (Borrowing from yarrow)

  11. 11.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 12:41 pm

    @LAO: having lied once to the FBI, that makes his eventual testimony a touch of the “he will say anything and lie to anyone” variety. I would expect there are some objective type pieces of evidence or corroborating witnesses.

  12. 12.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:41 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    “conspiracy against the US”

    It’s almost as if Mueller is laying the groundwork for indicting other co-conspirators…

  13. 13.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:43 pm

    @eric: Mueller (likely) already knows where the money came from and where it all went. Gates can put people in the room when some of that fraud went down.

  14. 14.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 12:43 pm

    never mind.

  15. 15.

    Miss Bianca

    February 23, 2018 at 12:44 pm

    @Corner Stone: But that’s so booorrriiing. Tell me why I should care! //

  16. 16.

    Kay

    February 23, 2018 at 12:44 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:

    No one knows, though. That’s the amazing part of this whole thing. The entire country is waiting for one man.

    I’m uncomfortable with that just kneejerk, and everyone else should be too. It was NEVER supposed to come down to one person.

    Our system failed, over and over and over. The worst happened. It’s down to one person, Robert Mueller. The whole United States scheme was designed so that would never happen. But it did.

    You have to trust Mueller and so does everyone else. You have no choice.

  17. 17.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 12:45 pm

    @Corner Stone

    Yup.

    It takes two to tango and all that.

  18. 18.

    Olivia

    February 23, 2018 at 12:45 pm

    First thing I thought was that his beard will serve him well with the higher publicity he will be getting for awhile. When it is all over, he can shave and look like a different person to rebuild his life. The photos and video of this time will be of a trump conspirator with a beard. Cheaper than a face makeover

  19. 19.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 12:45 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:

    IANAL, so can someone explain this to me? Is this paring down all previous indictments to just Conspiracy Against the US and False Statements to the FBI?

    If so, that’s a HELL of a deal. I can’t imagine what he can give Mueller for that unless it’s pretty damning, and not just on Manafort. Though I suppose it could also be about significant other lawbreaking he’s aware of that isn’t related to Mueller Russia investigation. That’s possible.

    Gates is the only one who was around from the campaign through the White House.
    He knows a lot.

  20. 20.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 23, 2018 at 12:46 pm

    @Miss Bianca: I mean, “Conspiracy against the US” is bad, but it’s a single count. Not 30-odd counts of fraud, money laundering, etc. It’s a more serious charge in a lot of ways, but the total jail time is probably a lot lower.

    Still not sure exactly what this news means – like I asked originally, does this mean the other indictments all ‘go away’ in favor of these new indictments?

  21. 21.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:47 pm

    @Miss Bianca: To be honest, I’m starting to think there is nothing here.

  22. 22.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 12:47 pm

    @Corner Stone: but that is the kind of testimony ripe for the “he will say anything” cross examination. He has to be bringing something objective and verifiable to the table.

  23. 23.

    efgoldman

    February 23, 2018 at 12:47 pm

    I hope Adam hears from Yarrow soon.
    “Tick tock…” doesn’t really count unless it’s a certified original

  24. 24.

    dmsilev

    February 23, 2018 at 12:47 pm

    @Kay: While Mueller is the guy in charge of the investigation, let’s not forget that there’s a whole (big) team of very talented investigators and prosecutors and so forth. It isn’t really just one guy. Yes, we should never have come to this point, but here we are.

  25. 25.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    @Kay:

    Our system failed, over and over and over. The worst happened. It’s down to one person, Robert Mueller. The whole United States scheme was designed so that would never happen. But it did.

    You have to trust Mueller and so does everyone else. You have no choice.

    The founders never thought that the Legislative Branch would abdicate their role completely.

  26. 26.

    Miss Bianca

    February 23, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    @efgoldman: Yarrow is back among us as of this morning! : )

  27. 27.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    @Corner Stone: If I recall correctly, conspiracy against the united states was one of the original charges Mueller brought against Gates and Manafort all those months ago.

  28. 28.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    @efgoldman: Yarrow was in the last thread

  29. 29.

    Kay

    February 23, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    @rikyrah:

    Well, we’ll find out and as we know Nothing Can Be Done by anyone else outside Robert Mueller (apparently) so we’ll just have to wait.

    Talk about a thin blue line. The only thing standing between us and a complete breakdown is this one guy? That’s …alarming.

  30. 30.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 12:50 pm

    @efgoldman

    Yarrow showed up directly downstairs.

  31. 31.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?

    February 23, 2018 at 12:50 pm

    Trump: “Vlad! Do something!

  32. 32.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 12:50 pm

    I am assuming that there are specific limitations on the kind of work you can ever do in the future if you plead guilty to these counts….so Mueller needs only one of each kind.

  33. 33.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 12:52 pm

    @Kay: Oddly, the “one great man” ideal is a strong impulse in American polity. Think how often you here about Lincoln ending slavery or saving the Union. The truth is that there are more people at work behind the scenes that care deeply about this.

  34. 34.

    MattF

    February 23, 2018 at 12:52 pm

    IANAL, but I have a feeling that the ‘conspiracy against the United States’ is relevant to the collusion charge. There has to be a conspiracy of some sort for collusion, and that’s hard to prove. If Gates will testify that he knows there’s a conspiracy because he was part of it…

  35. 35.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:53 pm

    @Kay:

    Our system failed, over and over and over. The worst happened. It’s down to one person, Robert Mueller. The whole United States scheme was designed so that would never happen. But it did.

    As you say in the previous thread, media failed us over and over. But the entire system failed. 100M+ people went to vote in 2016 and maybe, *maybe*, 1% had an initial understanding of what was really happening. HRC calling Trump Putin’s Puppet on stage was a palpable hit, but it’s still just dismissed as campaign rhetoric. The joint letter DHS/DNI sent out, way too fucking late, might as well have been a statement to drink more Ovaltine. We needed some hair on fire actors/actions that institutions do not provide.

  36. 36.

    efgoldman

    February 23, 2018 at 12:53 pm

    @Miss Bianca: @NotMax:

    Yarrow is back among us as of this morning! : )

    Whoopie

  37. 37.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?

    February 23, 2018 at 12:53 pm

    @Kay: We are the heroes we’ve been waiting for. If Mueller fails it’s up to us. It always was.

  38. 38.

    Kay

    February 23, 2018 at 12:54 pm

    @rikyrah:

    Courts too, to be fair. Courts have been doing some reining in, but they’re not supposed to be on the front lines.

    I’ll never understand congressional abdication. I like power and so do most people, especially people who spend a good part of their lives running in HORRIBLE political campaigns to get it.

    So you win and then you’re like “nah- I don’t feel like using this power- too risky!” WTF? Who acts like that? I feel like I would be an overreaching member of congress, if anything :)

  39. 39.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 12:54 pm

    @efgoldman:

    Yarrow was on earlier today.

  40. 40.

    Miss Bianca

    February 23, 2018 at 12:54 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: No idea what it means, but.. attached article says original indictment count was 12. Then when Gates decided he’d try to bluff his way thru’, looks to me like Bobby Three Sticks said, “nuh-uh, sucker – here’s 20 more we can slap you with – *now* who’s your daddy?” and Gates went all “meep, OK.” So the only thing my non-lawyerly self can come up with is, “whatever Gates has got to offer has to be big enough to knock the indictment count down to 2. So I’m guessing that we ain’t seen nothing yet when it comes to revelations and future indictments.”

  41. 41.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:55 pm

    @eric: I don’t know, but I suspect Gates is cover for a lot of the info Mueller already has but doesn’t want to tip to yet.

  42. 42.

    dr. bloor

    February 23, 2018 at 12:55 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    All these indictments and plea deals make me think about Dick Mayhew. Haven’t seen that guy in a while and it makes me wonder just how deeply he was involved in the Trump campaign.

    And you know what else? You never, ever see Mayhew and Greenwald photographed together.

  43. 43.

    clay

    February 23, 2018 at 12:55 pm

    @rikyrah: Not the ONLY one *coughkellyanneconwaycough*

  44. 44.

    Kay

    February 23, 2018 at 12:56 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?:

    I’m emotional about school shootings and I teared up with Obama’s statement because he said about the kids “we have been waiting for you”

    What a nice thing to say! I was just blown away by that. So simple and so true and such a vote of confidence! BAWLING, I was.

  45. 45.

    Mike in NC

    February 23, 2018 at 12:56 pm

    Still early on a Friday afternoon. Maybe more info coming out before Happy Hour.

  46. 46.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 12:56 pm

    @Kay:

    I’ll never understand congressional abdication. I like power and so do most people, especially people who spend a good part of their lives running in HORRIBLE political campaigns to get it.

    They.are.compromised.
    And, now, we know, they have absolutely no problem with TREASON against this country.
    And, should be responded to accordingly.

  47. 47.

    manyakitty

    February 23, 2018 at 12:57 pm

    @Olivia: That makes a lot of sense. Bet he grows his hair out, too.

  48. 48.

    JPL

    February 23, 2018 at 12:57 pm

    Per John Harwood

    Gates will plead guilty to lying to investigators 3 weeks ago. According to Mueller filing, Gates said Manafort told him Ukraine hadn’t been discussed at 2013 meeting w/member of Congress, when in fact Gates had helped prepare report on Ukraine discussions at that meeting

    Who’s the congressman?

  49. 49.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 12:58 pm

    @efgoldman: But try not to mention how difficult it can be to find a correctly fitting bra. Seems to be a bit of a sensitive subject, I gather.

  50. 50.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    February 23, 2018 at 12:58 pm

    Giuliani is another name I’ve heard mentioned over the last few months as someone who is surprisingly absent from the news cycles. Could he already be snared in the Mueller net? We know Mueller doesn’t automatically tell us everyone who’s been indicted at the time. I’d love to see that guy go down.

  51. 51.

    SFAW

    February 23, 2018 at 1:00 pm

    @dr. bloor:

    You never, ever see Mayhew and Greenwald photographed together.

    Thanks. I needed that.

    ETA: I seem to recall an Art Buchwald column from the 1970s — during the “Paul is dead” period — noting that he had never seen Paul McCartney and Spiro Agnew in the same room at the same time.

    Yes, I’m old. What of it? And get off my lawn!

  52. 52.

    manyakitty

    February 23, 2018 at 1:01 pm

    @JPL: Betcha it’s Rohrbacher

  53. 53.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    February 23, 2018 at 1:02 pm

    @JPL: More evidence that Mueller’s team always, ALWAYS knows the answers to the questions when they bring these people in. They’re just letting them hang themselves. I love this guy.

    I know it’s terrible as Kay says to have it all come down to one investigator, and I know that to do the job right that investigation has to proceed at a pace most of us find painfully slow. But all of this is going to have the positive effect of increasing American trust in the rule of law. To strengthen one of our key pillars, in other words.

  54. 54.

    MattF

    February 23, 2018 at 1:04 pm

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Possible that Giuliani pictures himself as Justice Giuliani or AG Giuliani. If so, he’d be avoiding headlines.

  55. 55.

    efgoldman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:05 pm

    @Corner Stone: It’s very early in the day for you to be drunk

  56. 56.

    Mingobat (f/k/a Karen in GA)

    February 23, 2018 at 1:05 pm

    @rikyrah: Pence?

  57. 57.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 1:07 pm

    @efgoldman: Geez, I didn’t know it was such a sore point for you as well.

  58. 58.

    petesh

    February 23, 2018 at 1:08 pm

    Apparently the 2013 meeting was with Rohrabacher; and another name to look for is Tom Barrack, who (1) loaned Trump money that was later replaced by money from an unknown source; (2) recommended Manafort to Trump; and (3) employed Gates after Gates left the Trump orbit. This is getting yuuuuge.

  59. 59.

    efgoldman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:08 pm

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Giuliani is another name I’ve heard mentioned over the last few months as someone who is surprisingly absent from the news cycles.

    I’ve seen him lately in off-hours commercials for Experian’s free “dark web” service. Typical that he’d be involved with a disreputable outfit in a near scam.

  60. 60.

    Miss Bianca

    February 23, 2018 at 1:09 pm

    @Kay: Remember when we had a President who always knew the right thing to say? And it was only two years ago…which feels like half a generation ago since I’ve been aging in “dog/Trump” years.

  61. 61.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:09 pm

    @Kay: I spoke with a good friend and former colleague yesterday morning. He’s a retired Marine colonel. He asked what I thought. I told him my money’s on the Marine.

  62. 62.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:10 pm

    @rikyrah: Other than Jared, Ivanka, Erick, Jr, Scavino, and Hope Hicks.

  63. 63.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 1:10 pm

    @Corner Stone: almost all of our systems, including things like polling, but also especially voters, failed in 2016. I hope to hell that it was a black swan.

  64. 64.

    SteveNKY

    February 23, 2018 at 1:10 pm

    I wish it was Rudy “9/11” Giuliani. But I will take a tea-bagger congressman’s head on a pike too.

  65. 65.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?

    February 23, 2018 at 1:10 pm

    Why can’t the president be indicted?

  66. 66.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:11 pm

    @efgoldman: He’s commenting in the two previous threads and he emailed me back just before he commented.

  67. 67.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?

    February 23, 2018 at 1:11 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I thought the polling was correct, it just didn’t account for the EC?

  68. 68.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:12 pm

    @Kay: That isn’t true. We can do something. We can get as many registered to vote and out to vote and as many to run up and down the ballot for every position this November. If the Democrats take one or both chambers in Congress, a lot of the institutional safeguards will begin to kick back in.

  69. 69.

    p.a.

    February 23, 2018 at 1:13 pm

    @efgoldman: Since 1/20/17 it’s never too early to be drunk.

  70. 70.

    lgerard

    February 23, 2018 at 1:13 pm

    I think it is important to remember that Gates stayed with the campaign long after Manafort was ousted and likely knows quite a bit more then Manafort about what transpired

  71. 71.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    February 23, 2018 at 1:14 pm

    @efgoldman: huh, Judy must be running low on handbags and the first class seats to set them upon.

    My longshot bet (and desperate hope) is that Rudi will be proven to have acted as an un- or semi-witting Russian pawn in the campaign, and indicted. My safer bet is there’s a lot of Russian money floating around New York, and it’s going to come out that Rudi has/had business ties with the Russian mob in ways that may or may not be part of Meuller’s bailiwick

  72. 72.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?

    February 23, 2018 at 1:14 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Right. The House can defund ICE, for example.

  73. 73.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:15 pm

    Britain’s not sending their best, though some, I’m sure, are decent people.

    I became a U.S. citizen this morning. https://t.co/jza1dySXGD

    — Charles C. W. Cooke (@charlescwcooke) February 23, 2018

  74. 74.

    satby

    February 23, 2018 at 1:16 pm

    @Corner Stone: @Corner Stone: it’s a nightmare. Just sayin.

    @manyakitty: I think so too.

  75. 75.

    Cheryl Rofer

    February 23, 2018 at 1:17 pm

    I know this has been mentioned, but I just can’t

    "Remarkably the alleged false statement was made by Gates to the Special Counsel’s Office and the FBI on Feb. 1. … That suggests Gates lied in the course of plea negotiations. His lawyers moved to withdraw from the case the same day." https://t.co/x1avCkQ0U0

    — David Kurtz (@TPM_dk) February 23, 2018

    The stupid is knee-deep. Or utter desperation at being trapped. And they all lie. Probably worth re-upping Popehat on the subject.

  76. 76.

    Anonymous At Work

    February 23, 2018 at 1:17 pm

    Update 1 The false statement charge refers to a Member of Congress in 2013. Is that relevant? If so, who would it be?

    Cough cough Dana Rohrabacher cough

  77. 77.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 1:17 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?: polling was off by two sigmas, all in the same direction, which is somewhere between a catastrophic failure and just pretty weird. (Not suspicious, but it indicates that either respondents were lying or the pollsters all shared the same inaccurate assumptions about the electorate.)

    ETA or a too-late-to-catch swing from the Mueller letter

  78. 78.

    No Drought No More

    February 23, 2018 at 1:18 pm

    It’s less a matter of Gates going down, I think, than it is of him stepping up. Finally..

  79. 79.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 1:19 pm

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Giuliani is another name I’ve heard mentioned over the last few months as someone who is surprisingly absent from the news cycles. Could he already be snared in the Mueller net? We know Mueller doesn’t automatically tell us everyone who’s been indicted at the time. I’d love to see that guy go down.

    He’s been quiet as a church mouse pissing on cotton.

  80. 80.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 23, 2018 at 1:20 pm

    Not that anyone will care, but we’re getting to the point (long past it, actually) where if the defining problem with EMAILS was “judgment”, then Trump has demonstrably done worse by hiring a white collar criminal in hock to Russians to run his entire fucking campaign and personally pick his Vice President.

    I mean, in addition to all the other glaringly awful shit, like giving his son-in-law access to the highest levels of intelligence when the guy can’t even get a security clearance due to numerous huge red flags, aside from being under investigation by Mueller.

  81. 81.

    efgoldman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:21 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?:

    Why can’t the president be indicted?

    Nobody knows if he can it’s never been tried. Jaworski, the second Watergate prosecutor, thought not, so he named Tricksie as an unindicted co-conspirator

  82. 82.

    trollhattan

    February 23, 2018 at 1:23 pm

    @But her emails!!!:
    Just checked, the St Petersburg overnight low will be 3 and tomorrow’s high, 12. That’s Fahrenheit, no sissy Celsius. It’s 9 at night so trolls are inside, huddled over their warm monitors on the third bottle of vodka.

  83. 83.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 1:23 pm

    @MattF:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Possible that Giuliani pictures himself as Justice Giuliani or AG Giuliani. If so, he’d be avoiding headlines.

    Never forget…it was Rudy’s responsibility to make sure that Bobby Three Sticks never got his hands on the emails from the campaign and transition…

    and, he failed at that task…

  84. 84.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 1:24 pm

    @efgoldman:

    You probably already know this by now — have not read through all the comments yet — but Yarrow is back! He posted in both of the downstairs threads (“Gates Cooperating” and “Good Guy With a Gun”).

  85. 85.

    sukabi

    February 23, 2018 at 1:25 pm

    @JPL: I’m guessing either Rohrabacher, Sessions, or the current ambassador to Norway…what’s his name. The no go zone guy.

  86. 86.

    Ruckus

    February 23, 2018 at 1:25 pm

    @Kay:
    You know he’s not doing this alone. If he’s gone there will be lots of people that work for him with the info, there will be lots of info now out where it would be much harder to stop – in the court system.
    Mueller is the guy in charge, he’s not the only lawyer in the room. What do we expect would happen if he’s incapable of finishing this? That the whole thing just folds up into a couple of legal sized storage boxes and never gets seen again?
    Yes it sucks a lot that we see that our country and system is down to this, but this is not one man at his desk, with his book light on at 3am studying some obscure piece of paper.

  87. 87.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 1:25 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: correction: “Comey letter”

  88. 88.

    trollhattan

    February 23, 2018 at 1:25 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    Wait, what? He lied during a plea bargaining session?

    A fine example of “surrounding myself with the best people.”

  89. 89.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 1:25 pm

    @lgerard:

    I think it is important to remember that Gates stayed with the campaign long after Manafort was ousted and likely knows quite a bit more then Manafort about what transpired

    Yep…
    Campaign….
    Transition..
    Even onto the White House…..

  90. 90.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 1:25 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: I haven’t read all the comments yet, but:
    An information is a charging document for a felony filed by the prosecutor, not one that has gone through a Grand Jury (whose charging instrument is called an indictment). In some states, like Florida, all felonies are filed by Information (prosecutor only) except for capital crimes.

    In federal court, all felonies must be charged by Grand Jury indictment. So, this information is basically a reduction of all previously filed felonies that have previously been indicted by the Grand Jury down to two crimes. It is the plea deal (as long as Gates continues to be a very good boy). If Gates starts being a poor informant, all the other indictments — and more! — will flood back into his life.

  91. 91.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    February 23, 2018 at 1:26 pm

    OT: Hit dogs holler, and stuck pigs squeal
    Laura Ingraham @ IngrahamAngle
    HOW TEENS SPEAK TO AND ABT ADULTS: “We shd change the names of AR-15s to ‘Marco Rubio’ bc they are so easy to buy,” Stoneman Douglas sophomore Sarah Chadwick tweeted.

    Jon Lovett Retweeted Laura Ingraham
    Laura thank you for sharing this very good joke that we might have missed.

  92. 92.

    Jeffro

    February 23, 2018 at 1:26 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: A Democratic House can (and no doubt would) subpoena Trumpov’s tax returns, for instance. HUGE.

  93. 93.

    MJS

    February 23, 2018 at 1:27 pm

    OT, but I need some advice. If I want to use something other than Norton anti-virus on my laptop, because Norton is in bed with the NRA, what should I use?

  94. 94.

    Fair Economist

    February 23, 2018 at 1:27 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I don’t know, but I suspect Gates is cover for a lot of the info Mueller already has but doesn’t want to tip to yet.

    Mueller has a lot of information from intelligence sources he doesn’t want to reveal. But if he can get the same information from another source, he can add it to his indictments.

  95. 95.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 1:28 pm

    I like how the MSNBC chyron describes Gates as “Ex-Trump Aide Arrives in Court to Enter Guilty Plea”
    And not as a “Manafort Deputy” or some such other.

  96. 96.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    February 23, 2018 at 1:30 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: IIRC one explanation was white males (ex-urban FL and PA Man) who were missed by likely-voter models, also Stein voters.

    You know, morons.

  97. 97.

    JPL

    February 23, 2018 at 1:30 pm

    @Anonymous At Work: That appears to be the likely person, but Pence was still in congress. There must be a reason that Manafort wanted him on the ticket.

  98. 98.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:31 pm

    @eric: The Church of Latter Day Saints’ White Horse Prophecy.

  99. 99.

    Fair Economist

    February 23, 2018 at 1:32 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    polling was off by two sigmas, all in the same direction, which is somewhere between a catastrophic failure and just pretty weird. (Not suspicious, but it indicates that either respondents were lying or the pollsters all shared the same inaccurate assumptions about the electorate.)

    Not true. National polling was fairly close. State polling averages were way off *but* there was a big shift to Trump in the last few days. Add in the fact that last weekend trends typically continue into the polling booth and it’s not that far off.

    The rest of the error is that Trump really did get deplorables who don’t often vote to the polls. So the story is last-minute changes plus turnout modeling errors, which are both pretty common issues with polling.

  100. 100.

    Brachiator

    February 23, 2018 at 1:33 pm

    From CNN

    Former Donald Trump campaign official Rick Gates will plead guilty to two criminal charges in special counsel Robert Mueller’s wide-ranging investigation of Russian meddling into the 2016 presidential campaign and related activities.

    His arraignment is scheduled for 2 p.m. Friday.

  101. 101.

    different-church-lady

    February 23, 2018 at 1:33 pm

    @Kay: There’s people backing Mueller. The system is under grave attack, but Mueller wouldn’t be there if others hadn’t put him there and allowed him to continue.

  102. 102.

    Aleta

    February 23, 2018 at 1:34 pm

    “exiting this process” smooth lingo

    –for the sake of his family —
    No matter what kind of guy he is, it’s still true he is saving any kids and spouse from lives focused on trials and appeals, convictions and then jail. Even if they have to believe he’s not guilty, and would defend him the whole time to their world.

    If he knows he’ll be convicted, he’s right that he is sparing them agony. The point should be made more often that white collar sociopaths (who go to trial) do that to their families.

  103. 103.

    zhena gogolia

    February 23, 2018 at 1:34 pm

    @Kay:

    Yes. Makes me extremely nervous.

  104. 104.

    Fair Economist

    February 23, 2018 at 1:35 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Wait, what? He lied during a plea bargaining session?

    Ultimately probably an indicator of how much information Mueller has that the bad guys don’t realize he has.

  105. 105.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:35 pm

    @MattF: It is all conspiracy, collusion isn’t the right term here even though it seems to have become the popular default term.

  106. 106.

    patrick II

    February 23, 2018 at 1:36 pm

    Manafort and Gates, in spite of the myriad of the laws they have broken, and years of wildly disloyal activity in the Ukraine, would not now be under investigation if not for getting caught up in the Trump investigation. I have read that Manafort has been under surveillance for years, but now with all of the evidence brought against him, the question to me is why wasn’t this used against him before? There is enough to put him away for years.
    And Trump, if anything, is worse.
    Which begs the question of just how lawless and reckless must many of the people in the upper business environs be? Why have our various tax collecting and law enforcement agencies been unable or unwilling to corner Manafort/Gates before this, and what indication is this of a broader problem in the enforcement community?

  107. 107.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 1:36 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:
    “No white horse, no white horse, I am the white horse!”. Trump to Romney at disgrace dinner.

  108. 108.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:38 pm

    @Corner Stone: I can only do so many front page posts on the topic during any given election cycle.

  109. 109.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 23, 2018 at 1:38 pm

    @MJS: I used to like Avast and AVG, though I’m not so sure about AVG now.

  110. 110.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 1:38 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Other than Jared, Ivanka, Erick, Jr, Scavino, and Hope Hicks.

    And Bannon. Don’t forget Bannon.

    ETA: And Pence, too, of course.

  111. 111.

    Ruckus

    February 23, 2018 at 1:39 pm

    @Miss Bianca:
    I also am not a lawyer, but…. Is it possible that the 2 indictments cover what the others did and adds a lot to it? Or that this was the next shoe that Mueller was holding silently over his head and has now used on him? Mueller does not seem the type, from what we’ve seen so far, to give up ground. He’s methodical and cautious, not revealing any more than he has to at any one time. I’d bet he has not only a timeline/who line laid out but secondary and tertiary lines, back ups and furtherances laid out. This isn’t a game to him, but there is real value to be gained in not rushing in all at once, in showing your hand too soon.
    We are in round one of a long and vicious fight here, the law against a rather large group of lawless people. And the lawless people seem way out of their league. As several have stated, the US justice system has flaws, but it also has real power. And if it’s against you, it can steamroller your butt rather well. If it’s against you and it’s right………

  112. 112.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 1:40 pm

    @Aleta:
    He is also.saving his family from having every asset stripped from them through forfeiture — house(s), cars, jewelry, all the cash, everything — by making this deal .

    This is why, I guess, Mueller included his daughter and son in-law in the new indictments. Too Much Pressure!

  113. 113.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    @Corner Stone: He just went back to the underworld.

  114. 114.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 23, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Honest question: Have you ever gotten media requests to act as a SME and be interviewed about this kind of thing? If so, is that something you’re actually interested in doing?

  115. 115.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 1:42 pm

    @Fair Economist: yes, I meant state level polls (the ones that matter), see also my edit re: the Comey letter.

  116. 116.

    MJS

    February 23, 2018 at 1:42 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: Thanks. I’ll check into them.

  117. 117.

    HeleninEire

    February 23, 2018 at 1:42 pm

    @MattF: Disagree. Rudy used to be the US Attorney in one of the toughest districts; Southern District of NY. He knows EXACTLY was is going down and he is keeping his head down. He wants no part of it.

  118. 118.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 1:43 pm

    @Ruckus: see my comment at 90. The 2 charges in the information are his plea deal (all the others still hanging out, not dismissed, if needed)

  119. 119.

    Ruckus

    February 23, 2018 at 1:44 pm

    @p.a.:
    So now it’s OK to have 2 major problems, one self inflicted?

  120. 120.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 1:45 pm

    @sukabi: Pete Hoekstra is ambassador to the Netherlands.

    It was Rohrabacher.

  121. 121.

    lgerard

    February 23, 2018 at 1:46 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Remember when wingnuts wanted to hear the wisdom of teenagers

    CPAC 2009

  122. 122.

    Fair Economist

    February 23, 2018 at 1:46 pm

    @SteveNKY:

    I wish it was Rudy “9/11” Giuliani. But I will take a tea-bagger congressman’s head on a pike too.

    Rudy was tied into the Republican cell in the FBI. I suspect Mueller has a special hate for FBI agents who participate in political conspiracies so, don’t worry, Rudy will get his eventually. As many have said, Rudy’s sudden silence shows something is up. At the very least, he is afraid.

  123. 123.

    pamelabrown53

    February 23, 2018 at 1:46 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: #105.
    Adam, do you know how “collusion” became the default term? Should we stick to conspiracy? Also,I’m not sure why it matters.

  124. 124.

    Manxome Bromide

    February 23, 2018 at 1:47 pm

    @MJS: Like Forkbeard, I also used to like AVG but gave up on it as too intrusive. Against normal threats Windows Defender is actually pretty solid, and I like MalwareBytes as a periodic backup (it can be set to just scan so you don’t have the usual problems with multiple AVs at once).

  125. 125.

    Aleta

    February 23, 2018 at 1:47 pm

    @efgoldman: Maybe s/he would let the BJ store sell it on mugs and T shirts, as an attributed quote. Or trademark it and sell them hirself.

  126. 126.

    trollhattan

    February 23, 2018 at 1:48 pm

    O/T heard this a.m. France is the world’s #1 tourist destination. With buses like these I can totally understand. Classy!

    A Degas painting stolen from a Marseille museum in 2009 has been found on a bus near Paris.

    The French culture minister, Françoise Nyssen, said authorities discovered the artwork in the luggage compartment of the bus that was stopped in a motorway service station. Experts confirmed it was Les Choristes, a pastel painting said to be worth 800,000 euros (£700,000).

    None of the passengers admitted to owning the painting.

    Customs officials discovered the painting inside a suitcase. Nobody has been arrested. It was found during a random search, according to Reuters news agency. The work was stolen from Marseille’s Musée Cantini in 2009. It had been on loan from the Musée d’Orsay in Paris.

    Nice “random” search.

  127. 127.

    JPL

    February 23, 2018 at 1:48 pm

    @MJS: Not anymore. Symantec dropped sponsorship of the NRA. I notice a trend here.

  128. 128.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:50 pm

    @JPL: Could be anyone on the GOP side from Senators McCain and Graham who were incredibly concerned about the Russian intentions towards Ukraine to Congressman Rohrbacher (R-Putin’s Favorite Congressman) who wasn’t.

  129. 129.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 1:50 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?: in one of the 51 Federalist papers written by Hamilton (#69), it seems pretty clear that he views the president as immune to prosecution unless and until he is removed from office – and why.

    The President of the United States would be liable to be impeached, tried, and, upon conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes or misdemeanors, removed from office; and would afterwards be liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law. The person of the king of Great Britain is sacred and inviolable; there is no constitutional tribunal to which he is amenable; no punishment to which he can be subjected without involving the crisis of a national revolution. In this delicate and important circumstance of personal responsibility, the President of Confederated America would stand upon no better ground than a governor of New York, and upon worse ground than the governors of Maryland and Delaware.

  130. 130.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 1:51 pm

    KAY — if you are on this thread, your comments in the last about how these prosecutionsbeen go, made the perfect image pop into my head about this prosecution:
    Austin Powers

  131. 131.

    Eljai

    February 23, 2018 at 1:52 pm

    @MJS: I have Norton too and I was going to threaten to cancel. Then I read that Symantec, which owns Norton, has decided to cut ties with the NRA. Guess they saw the backlash coming and decided to distance themselves.

  132. 132.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 1:52 pm

    @sukabi:

    the current ambassador to Norway…what’s his name. The no go zone guy.

    I think you’re thinking of the current Ambassador to the Netherlands, Pete Hoekstra.

  133. 133.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:53 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: There are no black swans. Someone has always predicted what get termed black swans. Normally they’re ignored, told they don’t know what they’re talking about, and/or ridiculed. That entire explanation is ahistorical, a-theoretical (empirical), and anti-factual.

  134. 134.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 1:53 pm

    @MJS

    Windows machine? Not the best of the best, but the built-in Windows Defender is more than adequate for the average person, in fact pretty darn good. (Or its earlier incarnation, Microsoft Security Essentials, if running Win 7. If you’re running anything earlier than Win 7, your at-risk factor is sky high regardless.)

    Also, if you don’t already have it, download Malwarebytes (free version is perfectly fine), install it and run a quick scan with it periodically. (Note that if you need to update free version, it’s easy to confuse the “update now” and the “upgrade now” buttons in the Malwarebytes interface. “Update now” would be the one to click on to keep using the free version.)

    And if you’re planning to abandon Norton (a good choice) and excise it from your computer, don’t use its own uninstall tool; use the “uninstall programs” option reached through the Windows Control Panel.

  135. 135.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 1:54 pm

    @lgerard: I saw that kid a few years later saying Christ, what an asshole I was, I’m liberal now.

    @Adam L Silverman: to me, a “black swan” is a story of total institutional/system-wide blindness and failure, not a story of nobody predicting something. Perhaps I’m misusing it.

  136. 136.

    Ninedragonspot

    February 23, 2018 at 1:54 pm

    @MJS: Symantec/Norton apparently just ended their relationship with the NRA, due to the backlash.

    Edit: Already noted by two commenters above. Bronze medal for me. Honor just to compete, etc.

  137. 137.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 23, 2018 at 1:54 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: The black swan guy, Taleb is a Trumper and a fraud.

  138. 138.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 1:55 pm

    @pamelabrown53: Collusion is a word that was probably focus group tested by Lutz et al and is used because it means NOTHING. It can mean whatever you want it to any day.

    “Criminal conspiracy” or “accomplice” are the criminal law terms for what the behaviour seems to be. Try to stay away from repeating the republican “collusion” language.

  139. 139.

    trollhattan

    February 23, 2018 at 1:55 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    Have to admit the Dutch journalist who countered Hoekstra’s “fake news” defense by showing him a video saying what he just denied saying was one of my most satisfying moments of 2018.

  140. 140.

    JEC

    February 23, 2018 at 1:56 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: With due respect to the point the Popehat post makes, an “accidental” or impulsive lie to an investigator is not necessarily irrevocable. Tell your lawyer what you’ve done, and the two of you will draft a letter to the investigating authority identifying and correcting your “mis-statements.” A criminal conviction for lying to investigators, like most criminal charges, requires evidence of intent. Leaving a false statement uncorrected kinda looks like criminal intent. A prompt correction, not so much. (What you can’t do, of course, is retroactively remain silent; if you blurt out a false denial of criminal conduct, you may have a problem.)

    So, from the circumstances reported so far, we can fairly speculate that not only did Gates make false statements to investigators, but his lawyers knew them to be false, and that Gates affirmatively refused to correct them, forcing his lawyers to withdraw.

  141. 141.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 1:56 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Actually the better polling wasn’t off. The better national polling estimated a 4% win by Clinton. She won the popular vote by 3%. What the polling didn’t take account of, or rather the analysis based on the polling, was the electoral college and its effects on the outcome.

  142. 142.

    gvg

    February 23, 2018 at 1:56 pm

    @JPL: I thought Pence was a Gov. at that point not a Congressman.

  143. 143.

    patrick II

    February 23, 2018 at 1:57 pm

    @pamelabrown53:

    Conspiracy is criminal, collusion is a broader term that include people acting together with malicious intent that may or may not be criminal. There was not enough evidence to prove conspiracy from the start and every time someone used that term someone on the other side of the argument would ask “where is the evidence of criminal activity”, and there would not be, in the legal sense a good answer, so it would just be a distractive assertion.
    Now there is a good answer, so we can start using the narrower legal term “conspiracy” with confidence and backing it up with indictments and evidence of criminal action in at least some cases.
    Of course, that’s just me. Adam will probably be along in a minute to give you the correct answer.

  144. 144.

    trollhattan

    February 23, 2018 at 1:57 pm

    @Ninedragonspot:
    Love that “oopsie” response, as though they didn’t enjoy the income right up to this week.

    Unless they’ve changed, Norton is bloatware worth avoiding on its own merits. Hard pass.

  145. 145.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 1:57 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I have two edits/corrections/clarifications to that comment later on.

  146. 146.

    geg6

    February 23, 2018 at 1:57 pm

    @pamelabrown53:

    I have refused to use the term “collusion” all through this (or if I do, I use scare quotes). Because it is not a term used in law. The word for what is happening here is conspiracy. I believe in using the proper terminology and not the favored word of Dolt 45 and his enablers. They chose it because they could then claim that “collusion” is not illegal. Which is true. The actual crime is called conspiracy.

  147. 147.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 1:58 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Sorry, but I have been reliably informed by internet commenter Chris Carson that you don’t know what you’re talking about and your facts are untrue. Nice try, though.

  148. 148.

    BlueDWarrior

    February 23, 2018 at 2:01 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: I think there was a systemic failure, but I think it was brought about by deliberate sabotage. And the fix would have been earlier if it weren’t for Obama being there at the right place and right time. This has been a 40 year project by right-wing entities to dismantle and disrupt the whole of the governmental structure of the United States (and many of the constituent States) and replace it with a corpo-religious vassal government.

    And it is working now, to the extent it is, because the poison has finally reached the brains of half the voting public and they are acting like a cult more than a political party these days.

    But it is hard to keep a system in place when people inside it are deliberately sabotaging it, and if anything, I think the Democratic Party and liberal activists need to make that the central thesis to their governing and electoral philosophy: to root out the saboteurs and make the government function as written and as intended (and to be changed as conditions would warrant).

  149. 149.

    Ruckus

    February 23, 2018 at 2:01 pm

    @Immanentize:
    It helps to actually read all the comments before jumping in…….
    Also, in my own non lawyerly way I was trying to say the same thing. Everything is still out there, waiting to be dropped on his head, if necessary. Here is the best deal he is going to get, take one step out of line and the rest of this very tall building is going to fall on his head.
    That about it?
    (Never take 100 words to say something when 500 will do)

  150. 150.

    Fair Economist

    February 23, 2018 at 2:01 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: At the time there were comments on the discrepancies between state and national polling, including the observation that they’ve been divergent in the past and that the state polling had been correct in such cases. I never saw a detailed analysis of why there is often a discrepancy between state and national polling.

  151. 151.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:02 pm

    @sukabi: Hoekstra.

  152. 152.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 2:02 pm

    @Ninedragonspot

    Good on them. Norton is still bloatware, though, and will impede your computer’s speed and performance.

    My 2¢.

  153. 153.

    JPL

    February 23, 2018 at 2:02 pm

    @gvg: You’re correct that he was sworn in January 2013, so he’s not a possibility.
    We still can hope that Flynn will take him down.

  154. 154.

    Inventor

    February 23, 2018 at 2:02 pm

    @patrick II:

    Which begs the question of just how lawless and reckless must many of the people in the upper business environs be? Why have our various tax collecting and law enforcement agencies been unable or unwilling to corner Manafort/Gates before this, and what indication is this of a broader problem in the enforcement community?

    Great question.

  155. 155.

    Timurid

    February 23, 2018 at 2:02 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The Electoral College is the election security equivalent of setting your root password to “12345.”

  156. 156.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 2:03 pm

    @JPL:

    Pence’s last day in Congress was January 3, 2013. After that he was Governor of Indiana. So probably not Pence.

    I think it’s Rohrabacher — although I do think Pence is in this up to his eyebrows, and his relationship with Manafort will prove to be especially interesting. I just don’t think he was the Congressman mentioned.

  157. 157.

    VOR

    February 23, 2018 at 2:03 pm

    @MJS: Symantec, makers of Norton, just dropped the NRA as a partner. An article at Gizmodo says “Symantec had previously offered a variety of discounts to NRA members who purchased its Norton antivirus software. On Thursday, First National Bank and Enterprise Holdings, which operates three major car rental services, likewise cut ties with the gun advocacy group.”

  158. 158.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:05 pm

    @Immanentize: Is it:
    “Alexa! Order the whiskey flavored popcorn!” or “Alexa! Order the whiskey and the popcorn!”?

    Asking for a friend.

  159. 159.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 2:05 pm

    @pamelabrown53: IMO, the flap about collusion is somewhat similar to the gun nuts fooforaw about “clip v magazine” and if you don’t get it right then the entire world ends. I have probably used it a few times myself but I much prefer conspiracy now. It’s not only a better term, it’s just so much sexier.

  160. 160.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 2:05 pm

    @BlueDWarrior:

    it is hard to keep a system in place when people inside it are deliberately sabotaging it

    Agree, but this was happening inside not just government but all the things we depend on to monitor and circumvent government sabotage, like news and education. And I don’t think the polls were sabotaged, but they did (at the state level) all fail pretty hard in the same direction. ETA which is what I consider an institutional failure.

  161. 161.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:05 pm

    @MJS: I liked Trend Micro when I had a PC.

  162. 162.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:07 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Bannon, Pence, Bossie, and Conway where not there for the entire campaign.

  163. 163.

    bemused

    February 23, 2018 at 2:09 pm

    On my tv now, trump is looking very low energy.

  164. 164.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 2:09 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: the Macs at work use ESET.

  165. 165.

    MattF

    February 23, 2018 at 2:12 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: It’s probably safe to assume that Alexa has heard that question before and that your Amazon account will be offering you several different brands of good whiskey.

  166. 166.

    Cheryl Rofer

    February 23, 2018 at 2:12 pm

    @JEC: Thanks!

    I really appreciate all the lawyer commenters who help me understand these ins and outs.

  167. 167.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:12 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: I had one reporter sent my way by Cole. She wanted to talk about the social media component. While I understand that component – as in I know what is going on – I am not a specialist. And other than some informal network mapping I did at the beginning to help myself make sense of stuff, I never did anything formal and large scale. So I provided the reporter, who was just beginning her research, with decent background on what was happening overall in terms of active measures and then recommended several people that have far better technical understanding of the social media stuff for her to talk to. Other than my piece from June of 2016 that we are at cyberwar being cited in a WaPo op-ed by one of these technical types, I’ve not been approached or contacted. Since I don’t use twitter, I’m not promoting myself. And without that platform enabling breakthroughs, so to speak, it is a pretty closed ecosystem when dealing with the national news media. There are multiple gatekeepers from bookers and producers to national security analysts who advise the bookers and producers, as well as the reporters themselves.

  168. 168.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 2:13 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Sorry, I missed the “entire campaign” part.

  169. 169.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 2:15 pm

    @bemused: He’s spent after tearing the head off a black baby at CPAC this morning, then punching a Welfare Queen on the way to the car, just for good measure.

  170. 170.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 2:15 pm

    @NotMax

    One more thing. Go to Norton and cancel your account/subscription before uninstalling it.

    May have improved by now, but used to be horror tales of people still being charged again and again if they uninstalled first and it was a bear to resolve.

  171. 171.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:16 pm

    @pamelabrown53: I do not know. My understanding, and our legal fleegles can hopefully add more info, is that there is a technical legal term and usage for collusion, but it is very limited and not for anything that Mueller would be investigating. I think conspiracy has been steered away from because of the significant problem we actually have with conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories as opposed to real conspiracies.

  172. 172.

    Gin & Tonic

    February 23, 2018 at 2:17 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: No love for Kaspersky?

  173. 173.

    Aleta

    February 23, 2018 at 2:17 pm

    @patrick II: Yes. And I think is related to the destruction of the middle class, destruction of lower class neighborhoods, displacement of their residents, more homelessness and hunger in the US.

    Could be that the absence of previous charges, despite surveillance/investigation, gave Mueller a head start, and even a road in, so there’s that.

  174. 174.

    piratedan

    February 23, 2018 at 2:17 pm

    it strikes me that Gates in pivotal in that his information helps shore up the money aspect of what’s been going on, because apparently there was so much of it being tossed in multiple directions, the social media stuff, the voting suppressing initiatives, the big data analysis, paying off of people that influence the media (I mean who is telling these nosy reporters on what stories to follow and broadcast) all of that shit, Gates probably knows who was handling what, if not knowing who was getting paid for what.

    also, I think we need to nominate “tick, tock motherfuckers” as our very own “Dilly Dilly”.

    This is a scandal that will be taught over generations in schools how an enemy was able to corrupt and sieze power from a formerly open society… thru the use of money, racism and the media.

  175. 175.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:17 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Never mind, apparently it was Rohrbacher. If Mueller knows what was actually said at that meeting, then Congressman Rohrbacher should be very, very concerned right now.

  176. 176.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:20 pm

    @Bobby Thomson:

    In this delicate and important circumstance of personal responsibility, the President of Confederated America would stand upon no better ground than a governor of New York, and upon worse ground than the governors of Maryland and Delaware.

    The governors of New York, Maryland, and Delaware are all subject to indictment and prosecution while in office.

  177. 177.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 2:20 pm

    @Ruckus:
    Oh, taking 500 words to say what might in 100 is the sign of an experienced attorney!

  178. 178.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:21 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: You are not using it the way Taleb uses it.

  179. 179.

    Immanentize

    February 23, 2018 at 2:22 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: for me?
    Alexa, Whiskey!
    Popcorn gets stuck in my teeth…..

  180. 180.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 2:22 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Aw, fudge.

    ;)

  181. 181.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:23 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I don’t know about that. I do know that he is one of the folks who believes that if it doesn’t involve numbers/math, then it can be ignored. Which is a fatal blindspot to have when talking about historically big events that he alleges no one predicted. Which we know, from the historical record, is not true.

  182. 182.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:26 pm

    @Corner Stone: Bless his heart.

  183. 183.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 23, 2018 at 2:28 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: His grasp of the math of probability is shaky at best. He doesn’t really understand what he is talking about. The reason he is respected is because he made a lot of money on Wall Street.

    ETA: I have read his book and some articles. This is my opinion FWIW.
    ETA2: His conclusions are overly broad and sweeping.

  184. 184.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 2:30 pm

    @manyakitty: My first thought, too!

  185. 185.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:30 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Is it any good?

  186. 186.

    MB in CA

    February 23, 2018 at 2:31 pm

    Friend of mine had an unexpected visit from the FBI a week or so ago, regarding a few Russian tenants sharing an apt. at one of her buildings. They only stayed for about three months then broke lease. Their tenancy was throughout the time when UC Berkeley was being targeted by all those “free speech” protests (her building is near campus). Then they broke lease and took off. She knew nothing about them. Anyway, interesting.

  187. 187.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:32 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: No worries.

  188. 188.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:33 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: As we’ve discussed: Hell NO!!!!!

  189. 189.

    JPL

    February 23, 2018 at 2:33 pm

    @piratedan:

    This is a scandal that will be taught over generations in schools how an enemy was able to corrupt and sieze power from a formerly open society… thru the use of money, racism and the media.

    The question though is whether or not it will be taught in schools in the United States.

  190. 190.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:34 pm

    @NotMax: That works too!

  191. 191.

    JPL

    February 23, 2018 at 2:35 pm

    @MB in CA: hmmm

  192. 192.

    MCA1

    February 23, 2018 at 2:36 pm

    @Kay: I think for many (to be too simplistic, more of those driven in politics by ambition more than they are by idealism), once they’ve obtained power, keeping that power becomes a bigger psychological motivating factor than using it.

  193. 193.

    Chet Murthy

    February 23, 2018 at 2:36 pm

    Damn, just … damn.

    He lies in the middle of a proffer negotiation, forcing his lawyers to withdraw? Did he also shoot himself in the pecker? Give himself a high colonic with bleach? Sheesh.

  194. 194.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:36 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I do not argue with your conclusions. I could not get through the book. It was terrible. Factually inaccurate, clearly ahistorical. I’m not a probability specialist, but I’ve taught enough stats to know the math had issues. So I decided I’d rather spend my time on better things.

  195. 195.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:37 pm

    @JPL: Or if in the United States in English or Russian.//

  196. 196.

    bemused

    February 23, 2018 at 2:37 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    He obviously enjoyed himself immensely, closest thing to being on the campaign trail with big audience, seeing himself on the screen and he can blather on as long as he wants with cheers from the rabble. Less than 24 hours later, he seems quite deflated. I’m hoping he’s having Mueller nightmares every night.

  197. 197.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 2:39 pm

    @trollhattan: I guess the guy never had a chance to watch Law & Order on TV! Otherwise, he would have known better.

  198. 198.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 23, 2018 at 2:42 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Confession time, I couldn’t make it to the end of the book, either, nor am I a statistician. His article on renormalization group ( a technique I have familiarity with) was so full of BS that I can not take anything said by him seriously, ever again. I believe it was linked here by DougJ as an example of perpetuating nonsense with shaky math. I think MSMers are impressed because he is wealthy and they are innumerate.

  199. 199.

    Matt McIrvin

    February 23, 2018 at 2:44 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Taleb wrote about the renormalization group?!

  200. 200.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm

    @NotMax:

    Good on them. Norton is still bloatware, though, and will impede your computer’s speed and performance.

    As someone who knows nothing about the programs, what would you recommend, if not Norton?

  201. 201.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I don’t know, but our IT people are! :)

    When I’m on the train, it sometimes gives me an alert that an unknown device is trying to connect, and I turn WiFi off.

    @Adam L Silverman: ahha, now I remember a quora thread on this exact topic I read some time back, I came away agreeing with you about Taleb, and I believe that’s where I got the usage I described.

  202. 202.

    rikyrah

    February 23, 2018 at 2:46 pm

    @JPL:

    We still can hope that Flynn will take him down.

    1. He’s up to his eyeballs in the Flynn mess.
    2. He’s stupid enough to think that he can lie to Bobby Three Sticks.

  203. 203.

    Hoodie

    February 23, 2018 at 2:46 pm

    Seems pretty likely that Manafort and Gates are Russian agents and Trump either knew that or should have known that. Mueller has proof, Trump can’t pardon because of the optics of pardoning a spy.

  204. 204.

    Matt McIrvin

    February 23, 2018 at 2:47 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Oh, God, I looked it up and I remember now. According to Taleb the renormalization group proves why sharia law will rule us all.

  205. 205.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 2:47 pm

    @Inventor: See Bulger, Whitey

  206. 206.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 23, 2018 at 2:47 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: My first thought about all that is “It’s sad that twitter of all things is the gatekeeping tool. Blech.”

    My 2nd thought is that it’s too bad – not sure what your stage presence is like, but around here you’ve been highly informative and (generally) calming.

  207. 207.

    PaulWartenberg

    February 23, 2018 at 2:47 pm

    My eyes keep going back to this part of the statement: “Conspiracy against the U.S.”? Is that a real charge that Gates is pleading out to? Because if he is… the word Conspiracy itself implies that more people were involved in Gates’ criminal misdeeds against this nation. WHHHHOOOOAAAAAA.

  208. 208.

    PaulWartenberg

    February 23, 2018 at 2:48 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Is AVG or Malwarebytes acceptable?

  209. 209.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 23, 2018 at 2:50 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: Yes the same!

  210. 210.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 2:50 pm

    @rikyrah

    See #134 above, please.

  211. 211.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: I am trying to figure out if that is a known FACT or if you and others are stating it definitively because he is the obvious choice.

  212. 212.

    Sm*t Cl*de

    February 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The black swan guy, Taleb is a Trumper and a fraud.

    He started out as an apologist for self-regulation within the banking / market-speculation industry. “Gubblement should stay out; regulations will merely interfere with the flow of information; bankers and speculative investors stand to lose everything if they make the wrong decision, so they have more incentive to get it right than any regulator.”

    Then everything crashed and burned, soTaleb stopped talking about bankers losing everything and re-invented himself as the Prophet of Hoocoodaknown,

  213. 213.

    Cheryl Rofer

    February 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm

    LOL

    Manafort statement on Gates: "I had hoped and expected my business colleague would have had the strength to continue the battle to prove our innocence. For reasons yet to surface he chose to do otherwise."

    — Julian Borger (@julianborger) February 23, 2018

  214. 214.

    Gin & Tonic

    February 23, 2018 at 2:53 pm

    @PaulWartenberg: Malwarebytes is very good, and I recommend that people actually pay for it. Software doesn’t write itself.

  215. 215.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 2:53 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: No worries.

  216. 216.

    Suzanne

    February 23, 2018 at 2:54 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: LMMFAO.

  217. 217.

    Calouste

    February 23, 2018 at 2:54 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: We know that Gates lied about his involvement in that meeting, and Mueller got him on that. So either Mueller already knows what was said in that meeting or Gates told him everything he knows as part of his plea deal.

    Either way Rohrabacher better lawyer up.

  218. 218.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 2:55 pm

    @WaterGirl: the latter. But it’s him.

  219. 219.

    Gin & Tonic

    February 23, 2018 at 2:55 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: Poor Paulie. Such heartbreak.

  220. 220.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 23, 2018 at 2:56 pm

    @Sm*t Cl*de: OMG so Taleb is MoU’s taxi driver!

  221. 221.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 2:57 pm

    @Gin & Tonic

    So old that used to run F-Protect when it was still in nappies (and free for all).

  222. 222.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 2:58 pm

    @PaulWartenberg: legally, a conspiracy requires only two people – the indictment and superseding information do not refer to unindicted co-conspirators. They may also have been in other larger conspiracies but the filings don’t tell us.

  223. 223.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 2:58 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: as a lawyer who does not practice criminal law, i can say that would NEVER let my client say what he “expected” a potential co-conspirator to do. “Hope,” yes. “Expect,” no.

  224. 224.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:01 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: You tell me:

  225. 225.

    Leto

    February 23, 2018 at 3:03 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: I saw your comment about ESET and just wanted to pipe up that that’s what the family and I use at home. I have it on my Mac and both of our PCs. Seems pretty robust, user friendly, and is very easy on the system resources. Always happy to renew the subscription.

  226. 226.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 3:03 pm

    @trollhattan: And all the American so-called journalists said, “really? you can do that?”

  227. 227.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 3:03 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: that’s the point, because he’s comparing them to the president under the Articles of Confederation. The purpose of the Federalist Papers was to sell the Constitution as superior to the Articles of Confederation.

  228. 228.

    Shana

    February 23, 2018 at 3:03 pm

    @Immanentize: Something I don’t understand about Gates: just the other day we heard about $30 million in money laundering by Gates and Manafort. Yet we’re also hearing that Gates doesn’t have the money to fight this (among other reasons he may have not to fight). So where did Gates’ money go? Has it all been seized by the Feds? Was he screwed over by Manafort on money? Anyone know?

  229. 229.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:04 pm

    @Calouste: This was my take about the Van Der Zwaan indictment:

    I think the overarching message, the meta-narrative if you will, of this indictment/plea deal is that before Mueller brings you before the grand jury or in for an interview, he knows the actual, factual, and correct answers to every question his team is going to ask or that an individual might provide as part of an answer even if it isn’t 100% germane to the question. He’s got the info from SIGINT and from HUMINT and from his teams interview work with others as part of the CI and criminal investigations.

    This is signaling. Mueller knows if you’ve been naughty, he knows if you’ve been nice. He knows if you’ve been bad or good, so… As a result every interview, every grand jury appearance, every tweet, every statement from the White House press podium, every official White House statement, every off the cuff remark to the press pool or during a photo spray or to a phone gaggle, or in an interview with Haberman et al is a perjury trap. The President may not be smart enough to get the message. I’m honestly not sure if the Law Firm of Dumb, Stupid, and Incompetent (Dowd, Cobb, and Sekulow) are smart enough to get the message. I know the proxies – from Jr to Eric to Nines to Hannity to Carlson to Pirro to Finton to Kingston, etc, etc, etc – aren’t. McGahn’s, Bannon’s, Manafort’s, Kushner’s, Pence’s, and other’s attorneys may, but some of their clients are stupid and/or naive and may throw a wrench into their attorneys work.

  230. 230.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 3:04 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: It may just be me but statement by Paulie could be construed as a threat.

  231. 231.

    Gin & Tonic

    February 23, 2018 at 3:05 pm

    @Leto: You’re confusing me with someone else.

  232. 232.

    David Anderson

    February 23, 2018 at 3:05 pm

    @MB in CA: FYI this is interesting to read through on Mizzou (article by a colleague who literally sits in the office next to mine)

    https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2018/02/21/dealing-social-media-trolls-and-other-online-outlaws-opinion

  233. 233.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 3:07 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Hoekstra’s face was a study.

  234. 234.

    Leto

    February 23, 2018 at 3:07 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: So I am; apologies to Major x4 at 164!

  235. 235.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 3:07 pm

    @Corner Stone: not just you; though I read it more as a reminder. Niether is a good look.

  236. 236.

    Hoodie

    February 23, 2018 at 3:08 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: when you combine this with McCarthy’s slip about Rohrabacher being on Putin’s payroll, doesn’t that add up to Gates being a Russian agent? Are we about to see “espionage” raised? Thing is, they allknew, or should have known.

  237. 237.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 23, 2018 at 3:08 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I think you need to wear bandoliers to your presentations to really bring the excitement. Or just a single one, like Chewie. Also possibly some kind of fireworks. Have you watched Better Off Ted, by chance? The Jabberwocky presentation has some good pointers: https://youtu.be/spyJ5yxTfas?t=12

    Otherwise, I’m looking at a pretty decent presenter. I’ve certainly done worse. :)

  238. 238.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 3:08 pm

    @Shana: My guess is they took a cut of the laundering action but it was always for someone else. Hence the lawsuit Deripaska filed against Paulie for $17M or so a few years ago. Which I always found strange and thought the action did not add up or make sense.

  239. 239.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:08 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: I’m not sure what you excerpted means what you think it means. I’ve taught the Federalist Papers, and the Anti-Federalist Papers too, to both undergraduates and graduates. I know this is your position. I know you will never move off of it no matter what happens. I am not a lawyer, just a political scientist and criminologist whose specialties include low intensity and unconventional warfare. I know what the arguments are and I also know that even among top legal scholars and practitioners they are all over the map. From yours that it cannot be done/happen to it can be done, it just never has been, to who knows. Only time will tell if Mueller even tries to answer the question, let alone put it to bed for good.

  240. 240.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 3:10 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne

    How went the movie experience?

  241. 241.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 3:10 pm

    Edit to remove dickish comment.

  242. 242.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 3:10 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Do you use a Mac at home? Curious whether you use ESET or anything like it at home.

  243. 243.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:10 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: I’ve briefed all the way up to the 4 star/secretariat/special envoy level. I’m very good at it. Both the quick hit and the on the platform for hours variants.

  244. 244.

    Jay S

    February 23, 2018 at 3:13 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: @Major Major Major Major: ESET was recommended and installed by a computer shop for someone I know. It tends to ask for explicit permissions for software that can confuse people and have them block access that is necessary to run in ways that can be difficult to diagnose if you aren’t familiar with the software. I spent an hour or so researching and debugging her problem. I am not a fan of its use for people without strong computer literacy skills or a great IT support team.

  245. 245.

    Shana

    February 23, 2018 at 3:13 pm

    @Corner Stone: Thanks.

  246. 246.

    Amir Khalid

    February 23, 2018 at 3:13 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:
    Russky software. Use at your own peril.

  247. 247.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 3:13 pm

    I’d kind of like to be a bombs and rockets guy. Kind of like the leader of The A-Team with an unlit cigar in my mouth anytime I wasn’t making out with seriously hot ladies in distress I had just rescued from certain death.

  248. 248.

    NotMax

    February 23, 2018 at 3:14 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    This. It’s driving on to untested ice.

  249. 249.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 3:15 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Then it says the exact opposite of what Bobby Thomson thought it was saying?

  250. 250.

    eric

    February 23, 2018 at 3:15 pm

    @Corner Stone: when did trump say that? ;)

  251. 251.

    Corner Stone

    February 23, 2018 at 3:16 pm

    @Shana: It could also be that Gates has a stash somewhere that Mueller can’t find or know about and he’ll need it to permanently disappear when he serves his jail sentence. These guys got up to some dirty shit with even dirtier people so who knows what he’s trying to pull off.

  252. 252.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 3:17 pm

    @WaterGirl: no, the key word is “afterwards.”

  253. 253.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:18 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: I have a PhD in political science and criminology. As I’ve indicated, in a previous life I’ve taught the Federalist at accredited universities to graduate and undergraduate students in political science (and anyone else that signed up for the course). My bona fides are easily verifiable.

    I appreciate your expertise and your certitude in this matter. I’ve read the different arguments. I honestly, as a professional political scientist and criminologist, am not sure which of the arguments would actually carry the day if forced. Other than the who knows one, that I think we can rule out. We will either get an answer as a result of what Mueller is doing or we won’t and it will remain a theoretical issue to be argued without any actual empirical evidence to prove or disprove the arguments.

    You seem to take my not agreeing with you 100% as some sort of personal and/or professional attack. They aren’t. If you decide to keep acting as if they will, you will be very unhappy.

  254. 254.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:20 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: It’s fine. I understand the frustration. I’m not challenging your expertise as a lawyer. All I’m saying is we have two substantively different arguments and no actual empirical evidence to prove one or the other. We have the null set – that Jaworski didn’t think it could be done, his team thought it could be done, and he decided he didn’t want to risk it given that Congress was demonstrating that they would take action.

  255. 255.

    Sm*t Cl*de

    February 23, 2018 at 3:20 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    His article on renormalization group ( a technique I have familiarity with) was so full of BS that I can not take anything said by him seriously, ever again.

    I still have Wilson & Kogut (1974) filed away somewhere. There is a special circle of hell reserved for people who take the precise, refined tools of maths and physics and turn them into vague, hand-wavy metaphors, just to give the impression that they know what they’re talking about. Case in point: Spontaneous symmetry breaking, therefore cancer.

  256. 256.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 3:21 pm

    @Chet Murthy:

    Your link is behind a TPM Prime paywall. Any chance you could paste a couple of nut grafs or provide a summary?

  257. 257.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 3:24 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: Has Kevin McCarthy had a chat with Mueller yet? I should have phrased that the other way around.

  258. 258.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 3:24 pm

    @Sm*t Cl*de:

    There is a special circle of hell reserved for people who take the precise, refined tools of maths and physics and turn them into vague, hand-wavy metaphors, just to give the impression that they know what they’re talking about.

    Sure, maybe in your branch of the multiverse.

  259. 259.

    Yarrow

    February 23, 2018 at 3:25 pm

    Late to this thread. Had to go do real life stuff. Can’t be said often enough…tick tock, motherfuckers.

    Thanks for the kind thoughts, everyone.

  260. 260.

    Gin & Tonic

    February 23, 2018 at 3:25 pm

    @Amir Khalid: It was a joke.

  261. 261.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:29 pm

    @WaterGirl: I read it differently. He is reading the second paragraph reference to the Confederation of the United States as explicitly making a break with the United States as constituted under the Articles of Confederation. I’m reading it differently. As a political scientist I have trouble believing that the framers of the Constitution, let alone the founders in general, wanted to place the President above the law while in office. That literally would indicate that they meant the US to be a nation of laws, not men except for the President.

    I think there are two problems at play here. 1) The way the founders and framers use of language is not the same as today, so we may be reading something very literally that they didn’t intend to be read literally. (This is part of the problem with other parts of the Constitution – American English has changed enough or a lot since the 1790s causing interpretive issues). 2) The founders and framers used precisely the language they intended, they just did not expect they had to make it explicit that any president would be considered above the law for crimes that either predated his or (one day) her presidency or for crimes that are clearly not the political high crimes and misdemeanors, which are essentially whatever Congress decides they are.

    This is a theoretical disagreement. I’m looking at it from the political science side. Bobby Thompson from the legal side. I find it fascinating. I find his responses fascinating. While I appear to be pissing him off, he is actually sharpening my thinking and consideration of the issue.

  262. 262.

    SiubhanDuinne

    February 23, 2018 at 3:29 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    @bemused:

    A brief summary ? of his CPAC speech (link).

  263. 263.

    Fair Economist

    February 23, 2018 at 3:29 pm

    @Hoodie:

    Thing is, they allknew, or should have known.

    Oh, they all knew. They laughed at McCarthy’s joke.

  264. 264.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 23, 2018 at 3:32 pm

    @Sm*t Cl*de: I have a reprint of Wilson’s renormalization group paper for The Review of Modern Physics.

  265. 265.

    GregB

    February 23, 2018 at 3:33 pm

    @Yarrow:

    TTMF.

  266. 266.

    Aleta

    February 23, 2018 at 3:34 pm

    I wish a visible website or blog would compile a daily or weekly list of What Else They Are Doing Right Now.

    Maybe it’s out there and I don’t see it, as I’m consumed by the headlines too.

    I see other stories scattered around, but I wish for a very big constant spotlight on a list of headlines that are not the outrage of the moment (it’s justified outrage of course).

    It wasn’t an isolated slip up when Parkland was called a reprieve. It’s basic to what political operatives believe in. How Republicans and Bernie and Bill Clinton and Cheney work. It’s how Trump campaigned and kept curious voters on his side and still willing to go out to vote.

    (I made a ranting list but deleted it because everyone here knows the other stories that are also out there.)

  267. 267.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 3:34 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Yeah, I think he meant to reply to Whisky, Neat.

  268. 268.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 3:36 pm

    @WaterGirl: how’d you know my old drink?

  269. 269.

    les

    February 23, 2018 at 3:36 pm

    @Leto:

    I saw your comment about ESET and just wanted to pipe up that that’s what the family and I use at home.

    I’ll second that–use it home and office, haven’t had an issue yet. It’s Micro Center’s choice as well.

  270. 270.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 3:36 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: he made a colorable argument in his brief. I just think it’s weak.

    For all practical purposes, the language means what five justices say it means, and I find it hard to see Kennedy and/or Roberts getting on board with that view. Not a chance the three right wing ideologues do.

  271. 271.

    Vhh

    February 23, 2018 at 3:38 pm

    @MJS: Avast or the Microsoft security suite.

  272. 272.

    Doug R

    February 23, 2018 at 3:38 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    almost all of our systems, including things like polling, but also especially voters, failed in 2016. I hope to hell that it was a black swan.

    Only one thing failed-our countermeasures vs espionage.
    Edit: Of course 60,000,000 idiots didn’t help.

  273. 273.

    Adam L Silverman

    February 23, 2018 at 3:39 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: No argument with this analysis at all. Though Kennedy could go any direction. And Roberts always seems to have an eye on his legacy.

  274. 274.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 3:40 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks for all that. Interesting and useful.

  275. 275.

    Aleta

    February 23, 2018 at 3:41 pm

    @Immanentize: Didn’t think of that. Big thanks for pointing these things out, as you do.

  276. 276.

    WaterGirl

    February 23, 2018 at 3:42 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: I’m psychotic psychic.

  277. 277.

    Doug R

    February 23, 2018 at 3:42 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) ? ?: The polling was as close as the hacking dared to get-note all those 1% margin PA precincts-statistically impossible.

  278. 278.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 23, 2018 at 3:48 pm

    @Doug R: and, you know, the media.

    @WaterGirl: porque no los dos?

  279. 279.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 3:48 pm

    @Fair Economist: thing is, it was a “joke” in its absurdity, not in the sense of being made up. They also laughed at other objectively true statements made before that one.

  280. 280.

    Doug R

    February 23, 2018 at 3:49 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    polling was off by two sigmas, all in the same direction, which is somewhere between a catastrophic failure and just pretty weird.

    Or somebody tweaked the results just enough to be almost believable.

  281. 281.

    Anonymous At Work

    February 23, 2018 at 3:52 pm

    @JPL: I think the entire campaign staff was worried about selling a thrice-married, multi-cheating, greedy, lusty, wrathful, slothful, envious, boastful glutton to a lot of religious leaders and their followers. And Pence was low-fruit, being a favored son and a great fundraiser who was going to lose his re-election for Governor.
    Plus, Pence was in Congress from Jan 1 to Jan 3 in 2013 before becoming Governor.

  282. 282.

    Suzanne

    February 23, 2018 at 3:59 pm

    @Yarrow:

    tick tock, motherfuckers

    Damn skippy.

    You were missed.

  283. 283.

    Mnemosyne

    February 23, 2018 at 4:03 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    As a political scientist I have trouble believing that the framers of the Constitution, let alone the founders in general, wanted to place the President above the law while in office. That literally would indicate that they meant the US to be a nation of laws, not men except for the President.

    Well, there are some historians who insist that Hamilton was a secret royalist and wanted America to have a king, so … ?

    (Obviously, I think those people are stupid and/or have an agenda, but I’m only an amateur student of history.)

  284. 284.

    Doug R

    February 23, 2018 at 4:03 pm

    @MJS: Symantec ends NRA membership deals after backlash Norton dropped the discount.

  285. 285.

    Doug R

    February 23, 2018 at 4:18 pm

    @bemused:

    On my tv now, trump is looking very low energy.

    “Low t cuck”

  286. 286.

    Armadillo

    February 23, 2018 at 4:22 pm

    Do we know who Company A and Company B are in the superseding information? One of them is Skadden, right? Has TPM done one of its “CTRL-H” remixes of the information yet?

  287. 287.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 4:36 pm

    @Mnemosyne: it’s beyond dispute that Hamilton favored a strong central government and a strong executive, because a weak central government had been tried and was failing miserably. And because the economy needed a financial diuretic. I don’t think it’s a stretch that Hamilton thought the chief executive should be immune from the laws while executive, with an escape valve for high crimes and misdemeanors.

  288. 288.

    PaulWartenberg

    February 23, 2018 at 4:38 pm

    @Bobby Thomson:

    I know conspiracy is a minimum of two people. :)

    but given the scope of the investigation, and what it is we’re looking at, the likelihood of multiple people facing conspiracy charges is very very very VERY high.

    #PassThePopcorn

  289. 289.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 4:40 pm

    @Armadillo: Skadden isn’t mentioned in this indictment. TPM says that according to filings, we know that day Manafort met with Rohrabacher and Vin Weber of Mercury Public Affairs. We also now know that Gates’ former lawyers withdrew on the same day he met with Mueller, likely because they knew he had lied.

  290. 290.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 4:47 pm

    Company B is the Podesta Group, so get ready for a reprise of the whole Uranium One shtick.

  291. 291.

    Mnemosyne

    February 23, 2018 at 4:50 pm

    @Bobby Thomson:

    I’m commenting more on the conservative historians who insist that Hamilton wanted an actual king, not just a strong executive, based on what people claimed years later was the topic of his indelicate six-hour speech on his own form of government at the Constitutional Convention.

    Obviously, my view (from a history, not legal, standpoint) is that while Hamilton had a LOT of personal and professional flaws, I seriously doubt he was trying to create a monarchy in the US.

  292. 292.

    Bobby Thomson

    February 23, 2018 at 5:02 pm

    @Mnemosyne: disciplined dissident James Madison did call it essentially an “elective monarch.” Under that plan, Washington could have continued to serve for good behavior.

  293. 293.

    M. Bouffant

    February 23, 2018 at 5:18 pm

    @lgerard: Young Mr. Krohn wised up & went left. So left that he types for The Intercept now.

  294. 294.

    JEC

    February 23, 2018 at 5:21 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: Just to clarify, IANAL, just some guy who apparently sounds like one on the Internet.

  295. 295.

    Miss Bianca

    February 23, 2018 at 7:13 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: My God, that’s positively Soviet-speak!

  296. 296.

    Llelldorin

    February 23, 2018 at 7:59 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: My god, thank you for that. Taleb’s book is one of the very few I’ve ever owned that’s taken flight repeatedly.

  297. 297.

    Achrachno

    February 23, 2018 at 11:49 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: “If Mueller knows what was actually said at that meeting, then Congressman Rohrbacher should be very, very concerned right now.”

    Boy-oh-boy, do I hope Rohrbacher’s sweating. I knew him slightly in college and he played a role in my leaving the Republican party I’d been raised in (Nixon played a bigger role). He did not impress me much. He was the product of wealth (his dad was a big shot in Flying Tiger Airlines) and his folks lived in a pricey house on a hilltop on the Palos Verdes Peninsula overlooking L.A. I was there once for some meeting. He was absolutely paranoid that the anti-war people were going to kill him (or something) so he managed to finagle a concealed carry permit back in those days when I think that was pretty difficult. He posed mostly as a libertarian and an anticommunist — though those things are harder to see in his subsequent political career. I always wondered what his conservative supporters would have thought if they’d known more about his private life.

Comments are closed.

Primary Sidebar

On The Road -  ?BillinGlendaleCA - Gold! 1
Image by BillinGlendaleCA (5/10/25)

Recent Comments

  • Geoduck on Wednesday Night Open Thread (May 14, 2025 @ 8:22pm)
  • prostratedragon on Wednesday Night Open Thread (May 14, 2025 @ 8:21pm)
  • Bupalos on Brief Media Note (Open Thread) (May 14, 2025 @ 8:21pm)
  • Dr Daniel Price (Saint Vincent) on On The Road – frosty – 2024 National Park Road Trip – Canada (1/3) Banff (May 14, 2025 @ 8:20pm)
  • Percysowner on Wednesday Night Open Thread (May 14, 2025 @ 8:19pm)

PA Supreme Court At Risk

Donate

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
War in Ukraine
Donate to Razom for Ukraine

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

Meetups

Upcoming Ohio Meetup May 17
5/11 Post about the May 17 Ohio Meetup

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)
Fix Nyms with Apostrophes

Hands Off! – Denver, San Diego & Austin

Social Media

Balloon Juice
WaterGirl
TaMara
John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
David Anderson
Major Major Major Major
DougJ NYT Pitchbot
mistermix

Keeping Track

Legal Challenges (Lawfare)
Republicans Fleeing Town Halls (TPM)
21 Letters (to Borrow or Steal)
Search Donations from a Brand

PA Supreme Court At Risk

Donate

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2025 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!