Apparently the dominant conversation regarding the 2020 Democratic nomination for the past week has been an offhand remark by Liz Warren stating that Bernie had once said he didn’t think a woman could win the Presidency, and this has led to the predictable and depressing nonsense that we can expect in a primary. The diehard Bernie supporters are all convinced this was some sort of plan to smear him by Warren, and the predictable chaos has ensued. Normal people, of course, have paid no attention to this, but since I am not normal, here is my two cents. First, I find it implausible that the most issue substantive campaign I have ever seen, Warren, would decide that their closing argument in Iowa is “Sanders is sexist” is ridiculous. Second, when has pointing out sexism EVER worked in a woman’s favor? All it ever does is… serve as the baseboard for a whole host of sexist attacks.
On Bernie’s part, I don’t think noting that America is a deeply sexist nation and that it is his personal opinion that a woman can’t win is that crazy, either. Mostly because I watched the coverage of Clinton in 2016 and have watched the coverage of Harris, Klobuchar, and Warren this election cycle and the fact that our President is an orange haired Harvey Weinstein. Now I do not happen to share Bernie’s opinion from back then, and do not share it now (nor, do I believe, does Bernie), but having this opinion does not make someone a monster. If you had told me in 2006 while half the nation was freaking out because Rachel Ray wore a scarf or the Flight 93 memorial resembled an Islamic crescent that a black dude with the name of Hussein would be President in two years I would have scoffed at you then.
***
One of the benefits of the never-ending site rebuild and the utter odiousness of our President and thus the polluted news cycle has been that it has allowed me to take a step back. Every time I have wanted to blog for what feels like forever, I have logged on and have other website related shit I have to deal with, front pager angst in emails, angry emails from people about one thing or another, and all the energy I had to post something dissipates before I get anything written. Then I check the front page and Mistermix or Anne Laurie or Adam or Betty have already written, better than I could, what I wanted to talk about.
All of which is to say I am far better situated than previously to recognize “extremely online” behavior on my twitter feed, in the comments here, and on other various social media websites. It’s enough to make you think a lot of people have lost their minds. Again, some of this is the general primary season mania, a lot of it is the fact that everything is crazy and shit because our President is a fucking lunatic and the entire Republican party has sold out or at least finally been honest about having been bought and paid for all these years, but at times it is enough to look at things and see why my parents and others like them just wash their hands of it all and tune out the day to day stuff and quietly support people like Klobuchar, Biden, Harris, and Buttigieg.
I see it here in the comments, too- the Russian 2016 operation has made everyone paranoid and crazy. Don’t get me wrong, it’s good to be wary, and it is good to call out people deliberately and repeatedly putting out misinformation, and it is appropriate to be cautious about which news sites you follow and read and quote. And Adam is completely right that the campaigns are all woefully unprepared for the shit that is going to hit them this fall. At the same time, though, some of you have lost your fucking minds. I see people calling Mistermix a troll, or anyone who has a divergent opinion is smacked down and ganged up on. I hate to break it to you. Sometimes someone is just wrong, sometimes someone just has a different opinion than you, sometimes someone is just an asshole. Deal with it. Pie them. Don’t engage them. But grow the fuck up. Just like with terrorism, you can’t let outside forces change your essential nature or character. We failed miserably with terrorism on that regard, don’t do it again now.
***
At any rate, while certain segments of the extremely online community are going full Baader-Meinhof on each other, it’s a relatively small phenomenon in the bigger picture. Depending on who you read or who you follow on twitter, it may seem overwhelming at times. In the big scheme of things, it means nothing, though. Not one vote was changed due to this how little flare-up: all it did was firm the positions of people whose positions on Bernie or Warren weren’t going to change, anyway.
You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of all the toxic manbabies who spend hundreds of hours and thousands of gallons of ink wailing about an asian woman being an integral part of the new Star Wars or going over canon and stating that all the new movies suck because Han shot first or blah blah blah. And they are passionate, and consumed, and they scream and raise a fuss and it seems like the new movies is going to be terrible if you listen to all the noise being made.
And then the new Star Wars goes out and earns 5 billion dollars.
So take a step back. Try to get out of these toxic feedback loops and give people the benefit of the doubt. Do something positive- volunteer for a candidate you like rather than trash one you don’t, reach out to someone in need. Try to be kind to someone who seems to be angry in the comments section somewhere.
Just be better. The primaries will be over soon and we have a lot of work to do to take back the country.
PsiFighter37
Good post – but the new Star Wars movies did suck, and the storyline with Kelly Tran sucked not because she is an Asian woman, but because it was a complete and utterly ridiculous diversion from the (still shitty) main storyline in The Last Jedi. The only new SW movie worth watching again is Rogue One. The rest – I will pretend they never happened.
I agree with the rest of your post as it pertains to politics, with the exception that you are giving Wilmer too much of the benefit of the doubt.
schrodingers_cat
Why are you minimizing bad conduct by the Vt Senator and his staff and online minions? He was one of the candidates that GRU helped in 2016, the other one is in the WH. This is not paranoia speaking it is in the Mueller report.
Two candidates had campaign managers with hands dirty in Ukranian politics helping Putin. One is in the WH and the other one is playing the same games that he did to handicap HRC in 2016.
I judge candidates by their actions and BS actions have never followed his tall pronouncements. Just like the man in the WH the senator from Vt is repeating his toxic behavior from 2016. His task is destroying the D party from within just like GRU’s other candidate did to the R party.
BGinCHI
Perspective. Moderation. Love. Work. Exercise. Red wine.
Svensker
Didn’t Trump say a few days ago that something about Bernie was going to drop? Was this it? Ratfuckers and bots all the way down. Why are people falling for it?
Felanius Kootea
Aww, thank you Cole. Back to arguing.
OzarkHillbilly
Oooohhh, your gonna get it now, John.
A Ghost To Most
Meh. Courage is in critically short supply on our side. Most of us are only prepared to run away. Refusing to even admit the possibility that things could go south from here does not comport with my knowledge of the worst of the right.
“Are you scared?”
“Yes.”
“Not scared enough. I know what hunts you.”
Poltroon pie, where the jackals hide.
Baud
Those are just three ways of describing the same people.
sherparick
@schrodingers_cat: Thank you John, you are right. Bernie is trying to win elections and he his folks can be pretty tough on line. But also remember that Republicans and Russians (but I repeat myself) are trying to ratfuck all the Democratic candidates so don’t go off every misogynist troll that appears on twitter (except Glenn Greenwald and Matt Tabbai – go off on those assholes all you want). That energy can be better spent on helping your local candidates for the state legislature and Congress and to win back the Senate. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/7/4/1777960/-The-Patriot-s-Guide-to-Winning-Elections
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat:
His task? Assigned by whom?
Roger Moore
I don’t know how much benefit of the doubt I can give Wilmer, but I do know a bunch of Russian bots have outed themselves by posting unironically on #NeverWarren.
HalfAssedHomesteader
“Extremely online” is my new favorite expression.
Redshift
I’m with you, JC. Debating sincerely held opinions can be valuable, but we often don’t consider how much mental energy is taken up by engaging with people arguing in bad faith. I made a resolution about this a few years ago, and was struck by the difference in my mental state between thinking about a response to some online asshole and actually responding. One you respond, the argument becomes a task you’re engaged with. As long as the other person responds, it’s an unfinished task, and your brain has a really hard time letting go of unfinished tasks. And the attention you’re involuntarily giving to “what I should have said to shut him down” isn’t going to something more useful.
Betty Cracker
Toxic feedback loops really are a thing. Sometimes I wish all of Twitter was bird twitter. Even the company name fits!
Quinerly
Very good post. Thanks.
John Cole
@schrodingers_cat: I can not control the voices in your head that tell you I did any of that which you are asserting here, but I can point to the post I just wrote in which I DID NONE OF WHAT YOU ARE ASSERTING HERE.
Omnes Omnibus
Citations?
rikyrah
@schrodingers_cat:
don’t forget the actual sexual harassment claims about his 2016 campaign.
Wilmer will never get the benefit of the doubt from me.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
Amen.
Amir Khalid
Because I’ve already said my piece on these matters — particularly STAR WARS and mistermix — and don’t feel like saying it again, I offer instead YouTube videos of adorable pet squirrels.
zhena gogolia
So if the new rules are we can’t criticize Bernie, or point out how he benefits from the GRU’s disinformation campaigns, I guess I’ll have to go somewhere else.
schrodingers_cat
He destroyed our candidate last time but yes we should trust him, the millionaire who rails against billionaires.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Word.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and while we’re worrying about the NeverWarren movement, the President of the United States was running a campaign of harassment and intimidation against a career diplomat in one of the most sensitive positions in geopolitics, in order to 1) set up a smear campaign against a domestic political opponent and 2) strengthen the influence of a government hostile to US interests among our oldest and most reliable allies (Be a shame, Western Europe, if something happened to your natural gas supplies this winter…)
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: Where are you getting the idea that there are any new rules, let alone rules to protect Sanders?
ETA and OT: Happy Founders Day.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Those of us who actually read the Mueller Report are being accused of wearing tinfoil hats.
Meanwhile it’s emerging that the President of the United States encouraged his minions to stalk and possibly assassinate a US Ambassador. In his own words: “She’s going to go through some things.” And we’re being accused of hysteria. We have mafiosi in the White House, Dept. of State, and Justice Department.
John Cole
@zhena gogolia:
schrodingers_cat
All I said was you are giving BS the benefit of the doubt which you are.
zhena gogolia
Okay, bye, guys, it was nice knowing you.
John Cole
Jesus christ people. Who said there were new rules like there were any old rules and even if there were none of you fucking followed them anyway.
Thank you all for serving as exhibits for my post.
Cheryl Rofer
Thanks, John.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
Here’s what I don’t get with the “it’s okay that Bernie really feels this way” argument is… if it’s so okay, why did Bernie lie about it repeatedly on live TV last night?
John Cole
@schrodingers_cat:
/eyeroll
I never even broached his conduct. He privately said something in a conversation four years ago to Warren. That is the only thing being discussed here.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I didn’t watch the debate, but I’m given to understand that no one on the stage, neither candidates nor moderators, used words like “Supreme Court” or “judges”.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: I hope you’re not gone for good
?BillinGlendaleCA
Getting news reports on my computer that Schiff will be the lead manager for the Senate trial.
dm
I’ve taken to thinking “Twit for brains” as I read Twitter-enraged comments. It serves me well.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA: No surprise there.
schrodingers_cat
@John Cole: You are making excuses for him, his misogyny and lies.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Please don’t go.
Josie
@zhena gogolia:
Please don’t go. I’ll feel lonely if all the people who oppose Bernie leave the blog. I don’t think the rules have changed. John has the right to speak his piece, and we still have the right to disagree with him, which I do in this case. We can agree to disagree.
MisterForkbeard
@John Cole: I think he said the Warren thing last year, supposedly.
That said, I agree with you. It’s not a big deal and I think after Trump’s 2016 win it’s a reasonable (if wrong) position to take.
As someone who is extremely irritated by Bernie’s supporters (the ones I meet, at least), and somewhat irritated by him, I do kind of wish we’d let up on him here in the comments. Mistermix says a lot of shit I don’t agree with, but he’s not a troll and even when wrong he’s got some good points.
Sigh.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: It’s kind of ironic, one of the reasons he beat his predecessor was his role as one of the Clinton impeachment managers.
Immanentize
House impeachment managers named:
Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray
It’s going to be a long year.
Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.)
Yeah. I don’t like the despair that I’m seeing from a lot of Democrats lately. Yes, Tяump is a shitbag. Yes, Putin is going to try to help put him back over the top. Yes, people are spewing lies all over Facebook and Twitter and who the fuck knows where else.
And yet…
And yet, I’d still sure as hell rather be in our shoes than theirs. They got lucky. They had the built in edge that is the American Electoral College, they had Putin, they had the F.B.I. fucking around to help them, they had the advantage of being the out party after eight years of Democratic administration, they had a Democratic nominee to run against they’d spent 25 years smearing, and so who was deeply mistrusted by a good half of the electorate…
And still they lost by 3,000,000 votes, and it all came down to 80-odd thousand votes spread throughout three states. Sometimes we miss sight of just how miraculous–or rather how antimiraculous–Tяump’s election was. Everything had to break right for him, and I mean everything. Without Comey’s screwing around at the last minute, Clinton would have won.
But a lot of us are shell shocked. That’s easy to understand. It was a shock. But if there’s one thing you can count on from Democrats, it’s to freak out and give in to despair. Shit, I remember people on the eve of the 2008 election wigging out because they were sure Obama was going to piss it away it somehow.
We need to take deep breaths and settle ourselves down. We’re running against the most loathed piece of shit ever to pass himself off as president in history. People fucking hate this guy. Yes, he has a deeply committed base that whatever reason sees him as some kind of American Churchill. But well over half of this country would line up and sleep out in the cold for a week for tickets to beat this guy with a baseball bat.
With this economy, he should be well on his way to winning another four years. Instead, he loses in polls to every Democrat running. And I know, polls almost a year out are hardly the same as the election. But what those polls tell us is that we are the ones with the advantage. Damned right we need to work our asses off and use that advantage to our, well, advantage. But we are in the better position, by far.
If you could choose, how many of you would choose the Republicans’ hand to ours? Let’s work for this. Speak out, lend a hand with the campaigns, put up yard signs, prosyletize your friends, family and neighbors. Yeah, we have to do all that. But we should be hopeful here.
We’re about to kick this feculent stain back to his jumped-up, gold plated Cracker Barrel. Let’s have a good time doing it.
Cheryl Rofer
@Immanentize: Good group. I’ve been so impressed with Demings during the hearings. And, of course, Schiff.
MisterForkbeard
@Immanentize: Good choices all around, I think.
@zhena gogolia: Like others said – please don’t go. You’re an important voice around here. :(
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Immanentize: Good to see Val Demings there, she was impressive during the hearings.
HRH mistermix, Lord Bombay Sapphire, Duke of Schweppes
Thanks John
Princess
Thanks, John. There’s a reason I spend so much time hanging out at your online pad, and this is it.
BTW the new pie filter is super-duper primo *chef’s kiss*. Having pie images instead of text means i just scroll on by. I encourage everyone to use it liberally.
FNWA
I can’t believe I’m the first one to come up with this, but didn’t you mean, “Just Be Best”?
Immanentize
@Immanentize: To add, I think that lineup of managers is quite good. Diverse, smart. Tough. Demmings is a great choice – and not one I expected to see. Raskin not on the list is sorta sad. And, I know it had to be this way, and it is right and proper, but following Kay’s theory about NY Dems not really being able to land one on Trump, Nadler is probably — to me — the least good among a group of great managers.
Also, a nice number. The House sent 13 for Clinton’s trial.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
Geez, you guys – I’ll stop calling mistermix a troll. He may be an annoying shit-stirrer from time to time, but he’s probably a real person… ;)
zhena gogolia
I probably can’t give up my addiction. I’ll just stay away from Cole posts and anything relating to the Saint of Vermont.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: Demmings was one of the people I thought of first, but I thought she was long-shot because she’s not an attorney, but she’s a very sharp questioner.
I imagine Raskin and Swalwell and a few others will be designated for cable news hits.
Probably a somewhat unpopular opinion here, but I think they missed a good media play by not having Amash on the list– entirely possible he didn’t want that kind of role
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray: If you ever make it back to my neighborhood, I have four different bottles of fancy gin for you to imbibe. And I could get more!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: in the spirit of renewed kumbaya and harmony, I can endorse this opinion
CaseyL
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.):
I want to marry this comment and have its children.
I also want to be able to buy one of those tickets.
Kent
What we need is a west-coast version of this blog. I get up every morning at 6 am, feed the cats, walk the dog, make lunches for my kids, and then set down before 7 am and there are already 6 dead morning threads up here. Now I have about 1/2 hour over coffee to get caught up before going to work and Nancy is on my radio. I just can’t keep up!
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think Amash would have been an interesting add, but my impression is, he does not play well with others, and doesn’t want to tie himself to the Dems so closely for his re-election potentials.
Jinchi
Nice to hear from you John.
The Moar You Know
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.): It’s always pretty predictable that at this point in a non-incumbent campaign, Democrats really do turn into Surrendercrats, as I believe some conservative wag back in the early 00s named us.
It happens predictably enough that I don’t freak out about it, the only question/variable/issue being “how many will stop freaking out long enough to actually take the time and effort to fill out a fucking ballot”. Because, after all these decades, that’s one thing we still can’t do that the Republicans do every election without fail. Vote. It should be easy, and if all Dems/Dem allies voted, we’d have a 70-seat majority in the Seante and “President Trump” would literally still be nothing more than a punchline from an 80s movie.
But we don’t all vote. That’s gotta change, because nothing else will if we don’t.
Also, wholly OT: Neil Peart died last week of brain cancer. Probably the most influential person in my musical career/life. For me this was the death of my youth. And that’s oddly hard to deal with.
snoey
@Immanentize: Nadler is pretty much ex officio as Judiciary Chariman
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Kent: Perhaps you need more insomnia in your life.
j/k no one needs that
Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray
@Kent: Move.
UncleEbeneezer
Thinking a woman can’t win is not outlandish for reasons that should be obvious, but here’s the thing: you don’t have to say it out loud and help perpetuate the problem. Sometimes being an ally to women involves knowing what NOT to say. The fact that he apparently told Warren he didn’t think a woman could win is a shitty thing to do to a supposed friend. And it sure looks like it could have the ulterior motive of trying to discourage one of his chief potential primary opponents. It’s a bad look.
On the topic of Bernie’s most zealous supporters: we are constantly being told that he’s not responsible for their aggressive behavior online. But we are also told that his “Revolution” is the key to saving us and Democracy etc. Which is it? I mean, why should I trust a Revolution whose foot-soldiers are famously beyond any control of their leader? It’s constantly pointed out that Warren fans are bad too, PUMAs were a thing etc. But really? Am I the only one who notices that this behavior is MUCH more common among Bernie supporters than any other candidate? I could name a dozen, fairly high profile bloggers, podcasters etc. (mostly women and PoC) who have been harassed to the point of temporarily or permanently quitting social media just to get away from BernieBros. People like Imani Gandy, Melissa McEwan, Sady Doyle and numerous others. And all of them have explicitly noted that yes, they got shit from Trump supporters and Hillary supporters etc., but the BernieBros were significantly worse and disproportionately voluminous. Hell, BLM co-founder Tia Oso said in an interview that despite facing down xenophobic Trump-supporters at the AZ border and being the target of a shit-ton of abuse from Deplorables, that she still received FAR WORSE from Bernie supporters.
I’ll still vote for whoever the Dem nominee is, but I think one of the biggest frustrations for many of us is the gas lighting about just how bad Bernie supporters are, even the ones that are real people, not bots.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@The Moar You Know: I’m sorry for you and can relate to taking the loss of a musical hero harder than expected.
Citizen Alan
@Josie:
You can come sit by me. I’m the one praying for another heart attack.
Immanentize
@snoey: I know, but this means, I expect, that he will do a lot of talking. I wonder who will read the impeachments in the Senate? Schiff one, Nadler two?
Elizabelle
Wise and humane post. Well said, John.
Kent
@Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray: We did live in Texas and finally got the fuck out of there 4 years ago after the very last Dem in the region was finally defeated. And fled back to the Northwest.
When we moved TO Texas in 2003 for my wife’s medical residency the town of Waco had a Dem mayor and Dem majority city council and we had a very excellent Dem Congressmen (Chet Edwards) who was doing good things for Waco with earmarks. Every bit of that was burned down and the earth salted by Republicans.
But hey, it was Central Time Zone so perhaps BJ blogging was more convenient!
HRH mistermix, Lord Bombay Sapphire, Duke of Schweppes
Interesting comment on Crow – it’s a PVI D+2 but PVI is based on history in the Presidential race and that district is long gone for Republicans.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia:FWIW @soonergrunt doesn’t agree with this rosy view of the St. of Vt either. I wish he posted here like he used to.
FlyingToaster
@UncleEbeneezer:
I suspect that I’m not the only person who has to deal with Wilmer’s supporters in meatspace, as well as online.
My day-to-day experience (anecdata, granted) is that every single BS supporter is a fucking asshole, and a purity troll to boot. Even Deval Patrick*’s supporters are less unpleasant.
Online is worse, but that’s because I have 2 X chromosomes.
* His grandson goes to my daughter’s school; I used to work for a fuckton of ex-BCG and ex-Bain managers, all of whom support Governor Patrick.
Cacti
Assuming good faith from Wilmer and his cult minions is how we ended up with four years of Trump.
Don’t make this mistake twice.
Cheryl Rofer
@Elizabelle: Good to see you back!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlyingToaster: I still don’t quite grok how it happened, but Bernie Sanders was for years a less prominent version of Dennis Kucinich (remember him?), and somehow all his benign if cranky idealism became a toxic force in American and Democratic politics. My fear is, even if we could flip a switch and get Bernie to stop being the asshole so many anecdotes (Barney Frank, Charlie Rangel, now Elizabeth Warren) suggest he is, the damage is already done in the intransigeant, insistently childish assholes he has created.
Obviously I am not a close follower of Deval Patrick. If you had told me his son goes to your daughter’s school, I would be less surprised.
schrodingers_cat
@Cacti: I don’t understand why this is so difficult for so many to accept. His past actions don’t merit giving him any benefit of the doubt. He is responsible to a large extent for HRC’s defeat. The GRU attacks used against HRC in the general were tested in the primaries on BS behalf.
schrodingers_cat
@John Cole: You can roll your eyes but you are too trusting when someone makes arguments you like.
Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning are two other examples in addition to the St of Vt. People can google it and find out your posts about them too.
Elizabelle
@Cheryl Rofer: Hello there. FWIW, I got taken for a racist because a few people did not get at all what I was saying. So stepped back a bit.
Rough waters here lately, and too much drama and angst. Because the stakes are so high, I get that. But lurking, and just plain taking a time out, has its appeal.
Professor Bigfoot
I just have one question that I ask (internally, of course) of Senator Sanders’ most vocal supporters:
“Why do you disagree so vehemently with the vast majority of the black electorate; the literal soul of the Party?”
Cheryl Rofer
@Elizabelle: Yes. Just five hours away from the screen and around a different group of people yesterday was very refreshing for me.
FlyingToaster
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Up heah in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, Governor Patrick is missed — as governor. But he did his two terms and went off to make some money (governor doesn’t pay much) at Bain Capital.
He and his wife have two adult daughters, and a grandson. We all see each other in the dropoff/pickup line, and at the big school assemblies.
From what I’ve observed, the only people Governor Patrick spoke to about running for President are Bain and Boston Consulting Group types; that natural constituency are more likely to vote for Bloomberg, or vote [R].
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlyingToaster: I wouldn’t hold Bain against him, and I’ve seen gossip around the tubes that Obama modeled himself on DP (and yet for some reason I had it in my head that he was younger than Obama). My understanding is he decided not to run ’16 and ’20 because of his wife’s health issues, but they decided (too late, IMHO) that he should go for it after all. I hope she’s doing well.
Elizabelle
I also want to thank WaterGirl, because she understood what was going on and defended me, and I will never, ever forget that.
But we all knew that WaterGirl was a keeper anyway. She goes above and beyond.
Barbara
@schrodingers_cat: @zhena gogolia:
I think that Occam’s Razor is useful in explaining Sanders. Basically, he is in the race because he (and probably his more honest supporters) know that this is probably the last and best opportunity for someone with his particular combination of political qualities to have a chance of getting elected. He is banking on the historic unpopularity of Trump to win. But this is true of other Democratic candidates — their own improbabilities and defects would be considered minor only where their opponent is a raging lunatic asshole. Castro, O’Rourke, Buttigieg, even Harris.
Sanders was banking on being the last man standing because his own base and name recognition would allow him to hold a strong enough position while others split the electorate in too many ways. I have to hand it to African American voters, who seem to understand this pretty well.
I didn’t call MM a troll (I mean, come on), but I did give him a double FU for certain comments he made in the thread after his own post, which I won’t repeat.
Here is the pattern I see with the pro-Sanders putative trolls: they show up only in blog posts that mention Sanders directly, or another candidate that they want to undermine (Biden and Warren, of late). They fixate on a few specific points over and over and over again without really engaging. And then they disappear. I am not even going to name them. My approach is to limit myself to ONE reply and then avoid or ignore.
And it dawned on me after the MM post that I really disagreed with, that they are fixated on the AUMF for Biden because it’s the only thing they have. Sanders isn’t younger, he hasn’t had more experience in government, he hasn’t passed any progressive legislation, he isn’t strong on gun control or VAWA, he has been squishy on Russia in all kinds of ways, EW’s experience with talking up M4A has made Sanders go sotto voce on the topic, and Biden supported Obama in just about any way a VP could and has a pretty clear position on health care — whereas Sanders was the lone Senator in favor of a primary challenge to Obama in 2012.
So this long post is by way of saying, step back a bit and think about the larger game that is being played and the BEST way to fight back, because it isn’t always the immediate riposte.
I hope you both stick around. I comment a lot less than I used to, just for my own sanity.
NotMax
Han did shoot first.
*skulks off stage*;)
NotMax
@Zhena gogolia
Stick around. There’s lots more hijinks to come.
schrodingers_cat
@Barbara: BS voted against immigration reform and went on Lou Dobbs to celebrate when that legislation failed in 2007 to complain about evil immigrants.
His misogyny and xenophobia are not that different from the other candidate helped by the GRU.
Kent
I’m back and it looks like this thread is dying.
My problem with Sanders and his followers are that they are just so unbelievably bad at communicating outside of their narrow world. They speak in code way too much.
On healthcare his message is ALWAYS about the evil corporations and drug companies who are taking obscene profits while 15 million go uninsured. Or whatever. Which is fine, but that’s an ECONOMIC argument, not a health care argument. When have you ever in a debate seen Sanders actually explain M4A in simple sentences as follows: M4A means every single one of you and your children will have a new Medicare card that no one can take away. It will be accepted by every hospital, clinic, and ambulance in the country with nonsense about being in or out of network. No surprise billings. No outrageous co-pays or deductibles. You just show your card and you and your children receive the healthcare services that you need. Which is EXACTLY how things are done in the rest of the civilized world. And it will be paid out of tax dollars rather than premiums so everyone in the country will have one and be able to afford it.
Why can’t they talk like this to normal people? Why does every third sentence have to include either “the 1%” or “corporations” in it?
Ceci7
@zhena gogolia: delurking to say, please don’t go. Умоляю.
catclub
This could turn out to be an extremely big Biden deal.
But given all that has previously promised to be a big deal, we can only guess.
Barbara
@schrodingers_cat: I am not disagreeing with you. I think it’s important to keep track of these things. I didn’t know that about the 2007 immigration proposal. While I thought it had some flaws, I thought it was a real step forward and hoped it would pass.
chopper
@zhena gogolia:
this is what you took away from the post?
Barbara
@catclub: Well, I have already seen examples of the two responses I was expecting:
To the second one I am tempted to ask what kind of person would you hire to try to take out an ambassador. Certainly not one without stupidity being a prominent character feature.
EthylEster
Wow, JC, a very long post with no occurrence of “fuck”. That is epic.
As far as what it said, my response is several fold.
First I am genuinely sorry that many folks here find a way to disappoint you. I don’t always agree with your POV but you always make an argument and support it with what you think are facts and then invite debate.
Second I visit the site daily, sometimes only to read the front pagers’ headlines. I cannot keep up with the large volume of posts and many are not to my taste. The same is true of the comments and I’ve pretty much stopped commenting. The “conversations” mostly seem to be dominated by a small group of people who must have tons of free time. Also many comments are so poorly written that I cannot figure the point. Of course sometimes it is obvious the point IS to be a jerk. So many comments are repetitions of what has already been stated (dozens of times) before. I often start to write a comment and then think: I have nothing unique to say. Or I keep qualifying what I write to make it clear what my position is and realize that attitude leads to its own incomprehensibility. I find it particularly galling to try to make a careful argument and then have someone focus on some aspect of that argument that seems trivial. Example: schrodingers cat criticizing Cole for sc’s perception that Cole is giving Bernie the benefit of the doubt. I read that and think “This shit is driving me away.”
Third when I started reading at B-J in 2005, I learned new stuff so I continued reading. I read the MSM media but eschew social and broadcast media. I am particularly uninterested in reading a post that consists of quoting a lot of tweets. Now I mostly just get exhausted and depressed by the stupid bickering and…the snark (not a sustainable healthy attitude IMO).
Fourth there were no “open threads” back in 2005. If there were no open threads now, the number of posts would decrease with an attendant decrease in comments. Look at Eschaton. Often there is no link in a post. Just Atrios writing a couple of sentences then declaring an open thread; often I don’t even understand the context of his remarks. His commenters seem really AWFUL to me….no there there. I pretty much avoid open threads here.
Just my 2 cents.
zhena gogolia
@Ceci7:
Спасибо, не ухожу. Просто не буду обсуждать Святого Берни.
zhena gogolia
@Barbara:
Great analysis.
Marcopolo
FFS. Work, don’t worry. If you have to worry, don’t let it take priority over working to help the good folks win.
I’ve been participating in this blog for well over a decade. There are a lot of folks here whose opinions I like to hear/read (and a few who I generally think can go eff themselves a lot of the time which I don’t say cause what’s the point). Generally speaking it is a pretty good place to hang out. For having very few rules and considering the anonymity of online posting it is a fairly well behaved place (except for a very few times I can remember). When engaging with other folks here I think it is good to keep in mind a couple things:
1) Generally speaking what folks here write/say says a lot more about them then it does about you when/if they are saying something to/about you.
2) Meatspace reality always takes precedence over online reality. If you are experiencing unhappiness on the blog then for goodness sake go away and do something in the real world for a bit.
3) Have I said work, don’t worry? I fucking mean that. When I consider the amount of time human beings spend sitting around whinging about things that they might be able to affect by some form of action (myself included here cause guilty as hell of doing this from time to time) it depresses the hell out of me.
Whelp, this, of course, says a lot more about me than any of the rest of you. As for me, I’m not hanging around here as much atm cause it is an election year and there are elections to work on; I decided who I was supporting for Prez back in the spring & I haven’t seen a lot of informative/persuasive commenting here on that contest for a while; and, as Cole noted above it seems like a higher number of folks here are walking on the edge than normal.
Two last things:
WTF is SteveinATL? We could use your somewhat lame humor here if you are auditing threads.
I am kinda surprised no FPer has posted a thread about how the past 2 World Series were won by teams that were cheating. I know BJ places sports on a fairly low priority list topic-wise but this seems like a gimme & it would be a break from politics.
Have a lovely day everyone,
Suzy
@Kent: Because Sander’s whole political career as been ALL about protesting against the bad stuff. If I had to summarize Sanders with one word, it would be “anger”. Granted, the anger directed at Corporate America is well justified in a many ways. But let’s compare with the tone of the Warren campaign. Warren denounces too, but she tempers the anger with a positive attitude, focusing on detailed solutions. We can certainly debate on the chances for her solutions to pass Congress. Still, the tone of the Warren campaign is more positive.
Sanders is very intransigent, and he attracts staffers and supporters like him. Warren has better people skills, and it shows both in her campaign operation, and in the type of supporters she attracts.
karensky
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Ditto!
Ceci7
@zhena gogolia: Funny how that self-imposed policy ends up being the price we pay. It’s true for many women (myself included) on the other major internet forum where I follow/discuss politics.
zhena gogolia
@Ceci7:
Yes. Men don’t seem to see a problem with it.
Barbara
@Marcopolo: I too hope Steve is okay. I know that his wife has had very serious health problems in the past, so I worry about that. Whatever it is, I hope it it’s either fun (a long cruise) or that it is resolved and everyone is hale and healthy for the new year.
John Cole
@schrodingers_cat:
You keep wanting to make this all about me, which makes sense, because I am not the one who looked at this rather anodyne post and IMMEDIATELY took things to 11 because I somehow didn’t list EVERY SINGLE SANDERS MISDEED that is important to you and therefore assumed John Cole is now comintern.
I am not the one in need of a moment of reflection and introspection right now.
schrodingers_cat
@John Cole: I don’t think you are comintern.
Mnemosyne
@Suzy:
Yes, I think that “intransigent” is the mot juste.
I was just thinking today that people may be misremembering the Obama vs Hillary wars. I think people are somehow remembering that people hated Obama and he won them over, but I think the reality is that people who disliked Obama from the beginning continued to dislike him and never really gave that up over the 8 years he was in office. There were people who liked both him and Hillary equally, with maybe a slight lean in one direction or the other, but the people who disliked Obama never came around. But thinking that they did is making people think that people who dislike Bernie or Biden or Klobuchar can be won over when they really can’t.
PJ
@EthylEster: you are right about all of this. Still I post comments from time to time, mewling into the void.
Raven Onthill
“Warren is probably telling the truth, and Sanders is probably telling the truth, and Biden is going to be the nominee. congrats everybody.
“look, journalists are going to think about this differently. It’s very, very common for people to have conversations that they remember diametrically different years later, and it’s entirely possible both are certain they’re telling the truth.” – @cd_hooks, https://twitter.com/cd_hooks/status/1217315645605498880?s=20
Barbara
@Raven Onthill:
I don’t want to fight everything to the death, but this particular episode got started because the Sanders campaign — whoever that means — sent out canvassers with specific anti-Warren messages. It was a dumb thing to do, but I assume it was prompted by polls showing that if you add 1st and 2nd choices she has a significant advantage over Sanders. Compared to what GW Bush did to McCain in South Carolina in 2000, this barely registers on a scale of nastiness, but these aren’t normal times and I think it’s kind of an unstated assumption that candidates are not going after each other like that. Maybe they should, but if they should, then they should ALL do it.
Personally, I would rather be living in a time where all candidates can point out the weaknesses of others, without fearing that might contribute to the end of democracy as we know it in the U.S. I am not confident enough in my ability to prognosticate to know what would be best, but I don’t think anyone else does either. But no one can expect to be the one person who gets to throw mud while everyone else forbears. That cannot last.
cain
Hi! I heard there was fighting going on?!
GC
Refreshing post.