Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Democracy cannot function without a free press.

Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.

Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Those who are easily outraged are easily manipulated.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

Fight them, without becoming them!

All hail the time of the bunny!

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

We still have time to mess this up!

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Flynn Gets a Pardon

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130Comments

  2. 2.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump · 11m
    It is my Great Honor to announce that General Michael T. Flynn has been granted a Full Pardon. Congratulations to @GenFlynn and his wonderful family, I know you will now have a truly fantastic Thanksgiving!

    Whatever happened to the PA state charges– conspiracy to kidnap and essentially render a Turkish dissident, IIRC– looming over Flynn and his son?

  4. 4.

    dmsilev

    Well, looking for the silver lining in the cloud, at least this means Trump is lurching towards Acceptance in the post-electoral stages of grief.

  9. 9.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @LAO: I’ve often said we need a word for “shocking but not surprising”. At this point, this wouldn’t even qualify for that category.

    My new theory is trump has been persuaded not to announce his self-pardon– cause you know he wants to rub all our faces in it– until after the GA special, especially with the new news about Perdue.

  10. 10.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Not the tiniest bit surprised, except that it took as long as it did.

    If Trump had won reëlection, would he have waited until Thanksgiving 2024 to pardon Flynn?

  17. 17.

    Major Major Major Major

    Honestly I’m not sure I care. This was obviously going to happen, if not now then by the next GOP prez who will bring Flynn into the admin out of spite. idk. Not trying to insult anybody else for caring, it’s worth caring about…

  18. 18.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    WASHINGTON — Early this year, Senator David Perdue, Republican of Georgia, sold more than $1 million worth of stock in the financial company Cardlytics, where he once served on the board. Six weeks later, its share price tumbled when the company’s founder announced he would step down as chief executive and the firm said its future sales would be worse than expected.
    After the company’s stock price bottomed out in March at $29, Mr. Perdue bought back a substantial portion of the shares that he had sold. They are now trading at around $120 per share. […]
    Investigators found that Cardlytics’ chief executive at the time, Scott Grimes, sent Mr. Perdue a personal email two days before the senator’s stock sale that made a vague mention of “upcoming changes.” The timing of the message prompted additional scrutiny from investigators in both Washington and Atlanta. But ultimately they concluded the exchange contained no meaningful nonpublic information and declined to pursue charges, closing the case this summer.

  19. 19.

    jonas

    I’m old enough to remember when Republicans completely lost their shit over Bill Clinton’s pardon of Marc Rich. Good times.

  20. 20.

    germy

    I've never met a former soldier of Flynn's that respected him or was proud to work for him. He was a toxic leader who belittled his subordinates and stole their work as his own. It was always about him moving up the ladder. He took the pardon because he is guilty. He's a traitor. https://t.co/aUSHCtGbHq

    — Fred Wellman (@FPWellman) November 25, 2020

  26. 26.

    PsiFighter37

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:  Perdue is a bonified crook. I still don’t understand how neither he nor Loeffler are not doing any time for their blatant insider trading. We fucking sent Martha Stewart to prison for this shit (well, for lying about it, but still)!

  29. 29.

    TriassicSands

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

     

    Of course, nothing he does comes as a surprise, but does anything Trump does have the capacity to “shock?”

    The only things Trump could do that would either surprise or shock  us — a short list:

    1. Act like a decent human being.

    2. Apologize — for anything — or admit error.

    3. Admit he shouldn’t lie all the time about everything. Or just tell the truth…once.

    4. He could have both surprised and shocked us by conceding the election when it was first clear that he had lost.

    5. Retire quietly and disappear from public view.

    Never happen. Anything that could either shock or surprise us is impossible for Trump to do. Another way to express that is to say that only responsible, intelligent, and/or decent behavior could surprise or shock us and Trump is utterly incapable of any such behavior.

  30. 30.

    scav

    @scav: It’s also got a bit of the K-Tel vibe.  Relive all the crimes of the Trump Years! Do you remember? Original Hits! Original Stars!

  41. 41.

    jonas

    Of course, Flynn can now be made to testify fully about what he knew about the Trump campaign’s coordination with Russia during the transition.

  45. 45.

    Felanius Kootea

    I knew this would happen and he’ll pardon some more odious people, so honestly I’m kind of numb when it comes to the outgoing president’s antics.  Thank God he’s on his way out.

    I am really saddened by the news (NYT link) of Honestie Hodges’ passing.  Dead from COVID-19 at the age of 14!  Her grandmother says she had no underlying conditions.  She first came to the world’s attention at the age of 11 when she was handcuffed by Grand Rapids, MI police for walking out of her home just at the time that police were looking for a 40 year old woman involved in a stabbing.  After telling her mother to shut up and stop yelling that her daughter was just 11, the officers held her in the back of a squad car, figured out that she wasn’t 40 and hadn’t stabbed anyone and let her go.  No one was disciplined because there were no rules against handcuffing 11 year olds at the time.  That, at least, has changed.

  53. 53.

    dr. bloor

    The pardon certainly isn’t a surprise, although I suspect Flynn belongs on a list of guys for whom the criminal justice system did not pose the gravest threat to his well-being, anyways.

  55. 55.

    Mary G

    @LAO: Haven’t had a chance to tell you I’m glad you’re here again, and that Maggie has you wrapped around her little paw.

    Not a surprise, and I imagine some overseas betting market is wagering on who will be next. Flynn is trash, so of course he goes first.

  56. 56.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Omnes Omnibus: You are putting words in my mouth. I was just curious as to how  he is perceived among veterans and active duty military personnel.

    ETA: if I had to guess I would think he would be held in rather low esteem.

  57. 57.

    eric

    @OzarkHillbilly: It is worse than that….and the same will hold true for Trump if he pardons himself.  You can pardon only for past crimes and you lose 5th amendment protections.  You cannot pardon for future crimes, such as lying to investigators.  Putting aside Flynn, is there anyone on earth that would believe Trump is capable of NOT lying when asked in an investigation?  He will lie because that is what he does.  Those crimes are real and I am SURE that he will lie about things that investigators have locked down well before they ever ask Trump.  Thus, I am in the minority who says Trump will NOT pardon himself.  If he does, well, then he is an idiot.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mary G:

    Not a surprise, and I imagine some overseas betting market is wagering on who will be next

    My money’s on Manafort, since Stone IIRC has refused a pardon. Rick Gates– isn’t that his name? Manafort’s number two– made a couple media appearances a while back where he made all the noises about rigged investigations and witch-hunt, so he hasn’t given up.

  68. 68.

    mad citizen

    It should be more ammunition that Dem candidates can use to argue against any Republican in future campaigns, but it’s so far down the list of bullshit it probably won’t be mentioned by many in the After Times.

  69. 69.

    cintibud

    If Flynn and/or Trump start loudly proclaiming Flynn’s innocence, does that negate the pardon?

     

    ETA because you know that Trump is definitely going to do that

  75. 75.

    Amir Khalid

    @eric:

    Trump will NOT pardon himself.  If he does, well, then he is an idiot.

    Trump is an idiot. He might well pardon himself, even if advised against it.

  77. 77.

    MattF

    It wouldn’t surprise me if Trump declared a blanket pardon— everyone, including himself. It would tie up the federal legal system for centuries.

  78. 78.

    JPL

    @debbie: They are.   Perdue has refused not only debates, but interviews with MSM.   He’s hoping that his duck and cover approach will work.  It did during the primary, and the only reason there is a runoff is because the Libertarian candidate received votes.   Loeffler is a witch.

  79. 79.

    Cheryl Rofer

    The wording of the pardon will matter. Emptywheel has written a bit about this, but there’s a lot more.

    There’s Flynn’s presence at Vladimir Putin’s head table at a celebration for RT.

    There’s the phonecalls to Ambassador Kislyak during the Obama-Trump transition, which is part of the immensely tangled legal situation before Judge Emmet Sullivan.

    There’s some dodgy dealings based on a grand nuclear deal in the Middle East that hasn’t gotten as much attention as it deserves. I’ve been working on that. Here’s an article from a week or so ago.

    I’ll be writing more.

  82. 82.

    natem

    Can’t wait to see the inevitable intra-party fights when Perdue and Loeffler lose after Trump and Rudy shit all over the entire voting process.

  84. 84.

    Kent

    @jonas:Of course, Flynn can now be made to testify fully about what he knew about the Trump campaign’s coordination with Russia during the transition.

    This.  Any Grand Jury or Congressional Investigation can put him under the Klieg lights and if he so much as bends the truth in any way they can prosecute him for perjury.   And if he refuses to be 100% forthcoming they can prosecute him for obstruction of justice.

    Pardon means no taking the 5th or refusing to testify about any crime he was pardoned for.

  86. 86.

    Kent

    @JPL:@debbie: They are.   Perdue has refused not only debates, but interviews with MSM.   He’s hoping that his duck and cover approach will work.  It did during the primary, and the only reason there is a runoff is because the Libertarian candidate received votes.   Loeffler is a witch.

    I hope they have guys dressed up in chicken suits following him around to every single event and standing out in front of his office and campaign HQ.

    That’s what I would do.   It is especially apropros with Perdue because of Perdue Chicken.  Although I understand there is not family connection and Perdue Chicken is from MD.

  87. 87.

    trollhattan

    As a refresher and especially for those of us who did not know who he was beforehand, Flynn’s 2016 RNC speech.

    Any thoughts Trump might form a normal, coherent cabinet should he be elected (me: “as if”) were flung aside after watching that performance.

  88. 88.

    Kent

    @Amir Khalid:Trump is an idiot. He might well pardon himself, even if advised against it.

    I think he will.   And then if it gets challenged by some DOJ investigation he’ll go running to SCOTUS to uphold his auto-Pardon.  He probably (correctly) figures that he can drag out an extra 5 years worth of legal proceedings just on the topic of whether or not a self-pardon is legit or not.    It’s just one more way to gum up any investigations of him and run out the clock.

    Remember, pardon’s don’t just erase convictions.  They stop investigations as well.  That would be the point.  To pull the plug on “pointless” investigations.

    Trump has a feral sense for gumming up legal proceedings.

  91. 91.

    Kent

    @zhena gogolia:I’m with you. I just watched Biden’s speech, and I want to keep him and Harris and their whole wonderful crew in my mind, not this pack of traitors and cretins.

    This.

    Isn’t in wonderful to be on offense rather than defense finally?  It makes all the difference in the world.  These pardons are a defensive move, not an offensive move.  We finally have the initiative in determining the direction of the country.

  95. 95.

    SiubhanDuinne

    O/T. I’m a fan of Harry Truman, but I’m already sick to death of Joe Scarborough’s book tour, and his Truman book was only published yesterday.

  96. 96.

    Jeffro

    Hmmm…I think I’m going to add “remove presidential pardon power” to my Constitutional amendment wish list.  C’mon Santa!

  99. 99.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Baud:

    It’s actually supposed to be a pretty good book. But Joe annoys the fuck out of me at the best of times, so I shan’t be reading it either.

  103. 103.

    trollhattan

    @trollhattan:

    There’s a transcript of Flynn’s ’16 speech. Here’s the closing.

    NOW IS THE TIME FOR A LEADER THAT IS HONEST AND STRONG.
    [that’s the Donny we’ve come to know and revere] A LEADER WHO WILL STAND UP FOR AMERICA AND MAKE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT IF YOU CROSS HER PATH , YOU WILL PAY THE PRICE. [CHEERING] WE DO NOT NEED A WEEK, SPINELESS PRESIDENT WHO IS MORE CONCERNED ABOUT ISSUING APOLOGIES THERE PROTECTING AMERICANS. — DAN PROTECTING — THAN PROTECTING AMERICANS. WE DO NOT NEED A RECKLESS PRESIDENT WHO BELIEVES SHE IS ABOVE THE LAW. [CHEERING] >> LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP! >>

    LOCK HER UP, THAT IS RIGHT. THAT’S RIGHT. LOCK HER UP.

    I’M GOOD TO TELL YOU WHAT, IT IS UNBELIEVABLE — GOING TO TELL YOU, IT IS UNBELIEVABLE. >> LOCK HER UP! >> I USE #NEVERHILLARY.

    THAT’S WHAT I USE. I HAVE CALLED ON HILLARY CLINTON , I HAVE CALLED ON HILLARY CLINTON TO DROP OUT OF THE RACE BECAUSE SHE PUT OUR NATION’S SECURITY AT EXTREMELY HIGH RISK WITH HER CARELESS USE OF A PRIVATE E-MAIL SERVER. [CHEERING] LOCK HER UP. YOU GUYS ARE GOOD. DAMN RIGHT. >> LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP! >>

    And scene.

  104. 104.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    like testifying before Congress under oath means something.

    Under Biden’s Department of Justice?  Yes, it’s likely to be something you don’t want to risk perjuring yourself during.  Trump’s goons have been getting away with things because they temporarily owned the enforcement mechanism.

  105. 105.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @SiubhanDuinne: It pains me to think how easy it is for someone like him to get published, even more because he’s a TeeVee host than because he’s an ex-congresscritter, I suspect.

    Tweety used to churn out book-like products from time to time. I remember one of them, I think a study of Nixon and Kennedy, along the theme of the Golden Boy vs the Orthogonian, getting a cuttingly dismissive review from the NYT, as an overwritten undergrad paper worthy of, perhaps, a B. He was said to have carried that grudge for a long, long time.

  107. 107.

    NotMax

    @SiubhanDuinne

    FYI, David Susskind’s 1961 extensive interview with Truman available on Prime, listed as Give ’em Hell, Harry. Not to be confused with the James Whitmore movie of the same title.

  108. 108.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Ain’t life a bitch.

    Oh god. I’m going to have to commit another parody, I can tell. (Yes, Omnes, I know you hate musical theatre, but this is GILBERT AND SULLIVAN, so that makes it special.)

    Is life a boon?
    If so, it must befall
    That Death, whene’er he call,
    Must call too soon.
    Though fourscore years he give,
    Yet one would pray to live
    Another moon!

    What kind of plaint have I,
    Who perish in July,
    Who perish in July?
    I might have had to die,
    Perchance, in June!
    I might have had to die,
    Perchance, in June!

    Is life a thorn?
    Then count it not a whit!
    Nay, count it not a whit!
    Man is well done with it;
    Soon as he’s born
    He should all means essay
    To put the plague away;

    And I, war-worn,
    Poor captured fugitive,
    My life most gladly give—
    I might have had to live,
    Another morn!
    I might have had to live, to live
    Another morn!

    — from The Yeomen of the Guard

     

    (Honestly, one of my favourite songs of the entire G&S canon. Brilliant lyrics by Gilbert, and a lovely, moving, singable setting by Sullivan.)

  109. 109.

    NotMax

    Have long felt that Flynn and Michele Bachmann share custody of the same set of sanity-free zone eyes.

  112. 112.

    kindness

    There is one benefit to Flynn having been pardoned by Trump.  Now, if he is brought in for questioning regarding any of the things he was pardoned for, he can no longer plead the 5th.  He is now forced to answer or face Contempt charges.  Would he answer truthfully?  I wouldn’t bet on it.  But he has to testify.

  113. 113.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @NotMax:

    I think it was Charlie Pierce who always used to refer to Bachmann as “the girl with the faraway eyes.” You’re quite right, Flynn has them too. Never consciously noticed that before.

  117. 117.

    Kent

    @kindness:There is one benefit to Flynn having been pardoned by Trump.  Now, if he is brought in for questioning regarding any of the things he was pardoned for, he can no longer plead the 5th.  He is now forced to answer or face Contempt charges.  Would he answer truthfully?  I wouldn’t bet on it.  But he has to testify.

    And if he doesn’t answer completely truthfully he gets prosecuted for perjury.  Pardons don’t excuse you from future crimes.

  118. 118.

    patrick II

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Jon Stewart interviewed Chris Mathews on The Daily Show during Chris’s book tour for “Life’s a Campaign: What Politics Has Taught Me About Friendship, Rivalry, Reputation, and Success “.  Jon ripped him for the basic theme of the book — that we should be more like politicians and lie and scheme more.  Chris was flabbergasted that anyone could think ill of that advice, and later on his own show said maybe Jon didn’t like him because Chris was so much taller.

  120. 120.

    J R in WV

    @schrodingers_cat:

    What do Balloon Juice veterans think of Flynn?

    This former USN deck ape thinks Flynn is a stone traitor. But I’m also a former hippy and draft avoider by enlisting in the Navy.

    Fuck Flynn and the president who pardoned him!

  124. 124.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Kent: I understand there is not family connection and Perdue Chicken is from MD.

    The  MD Perdues don’t give a frying flock about Sonny. Or they shouldn’t.

  125. 125.

    PST

    I wonder what formalities are necessary to make a pardon operative. Trump has tweeted that he has granted Flynn a pardon. Is that all that is necessary? That certainly allows for ambiguity about the scope of the pardon. Is it a pardon only for the crime Flynn pleaded guilty to? Will he therefore contend that he can plead the Fifth with respect to other matters? Or will he argue that he is pardoned for everything? It all seems very loosey-goosey.

  127. 127.

    ...now I try to be amused

    @Mary G:

    O/T, but Newsmax called the election for Biden, and hilarity ensued:

    These people are complaining about the narrative arc of their favorite TV show.

  129. 129.

    nasruddin

    @Aleta: Caspar Weinberger by George HW Bush (who was VP during the period of interest)

    Then we have Gerald Ford & Nixon.

    Hmm …. seems like we have a pattern here ….

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