It’s not clear why one would need to create a shell company unless one were trying to hide something https://t.co/8wDTV9dbOl
— VANITY FAIR (@VanityFair) December 18, 2020
American Made Media Consultants, for extra risibility. Bess Levin is always a good read:
Donald Trump and his family have spent the last four years making the airtight case that they view the presidency as simply a means to enrich themselves and their associates. They probably don’t particularly like that reputation and, yet, it hasn’t stopped them from funneling taxpayer money to their private business, gouging the Secret Service, and raising legal defense funds that the fine print says could go directly to their pockets. Oh, and, according to a new report, setting up a shell company that spent hundreds of millions of campaign dollars to pay Trump family members along with other expenditures it seemingly wanted to keep under wraps.
According to Business Insider, first son-in-law Jared Kushner personally approved the creation of the company, incorporated as American Made Media Consultants Corp. and American Made Media Consultants LLC, in April 2018. From there, Eric Trump’s wife, Lara Trump, was named president, with Mike Pence’s nephew John Pence serving as vice president. If you’re wondering why the shell company, described as Business Insider as acting “almost like a campaign within a campaign” was necessary, well, it’s not entirely clear, but it sure sounds like the express purpose was the ability to shield “financial and operational details from public scrutiny,” as it allowed the campaign to avoid federally mandated disclosures concerning what it was spending considerable amounts of money on. And by considerable we mean nearly half of the $1.26 billion raised for Trump’s reelection. Which seems like a lot!…
Within the larger campaign, some leaders told Business Insider they were in the dark regarding the AMMC arrangement, saying that they were generally aware the company was used to purchase TV, radio, and digital advertising but had no idea exactly how much each vendor was keeping for itself. While some advisers have accused former campaign manager Brad Parscale of mismanaging money, the bulk of the cash spent by AMMC—$415 million—occurred after Parscale was fired on July 15. (Parscale has defended his spending as campaign manager.)
As for what Parscale’s successor, Bill Stepien, knew of the situation, a Republican close to the White House suggested to Business Insider that Stepien may have purposely kept himself in the dark so as not to anger Kushner. Another source, though, believed the first son-in-law may have been the one keeping the information from Stepien. “Nothing was done without Jared’s approval,” the source said. “What Stepien doesn’t know is because Jared doesn’t want him to know.”…
Opinion: The Trump family keeps grifting, to the end and beyond https://t.co/RYgBqb42cw
— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) December 19, 2020
Paul Waldman is more of a cynic:
… To be clear, it could well be that no laws were violated, scrupulous about obeying the rules as the Trump and Kushner families are known to be. But the whole point of shell companies is to hide something; in this case, the campaign was able to show over $600 million in payments to the shell company, American Made Media Consultants Corp., on its Federal Election Committee filings, without the details that would be known if whatever they were spending money on was paid directly to vendors.
And while most of that $600 million probably went to buy advertising, I wouldn’t be too surprised if the favored officers of the shell company got nice salaries, nor if there were ways that it was used to funnel campaign contributions back to Trump himself.
We may never know. But I know this: Trump’s supporters couldn’t care less, even if it’s their money.
That’s because he has spent years convincing them that self-dealing and graft are perfectly fine. The only question is whether it’s the people you like who are benefiting.
This was always Trump’s argument about unethical behavior: not that he’s innocent and others are guilty, but that everyone is guilty, so we shouldn’t worry about his misdeeds. Everyone is corrupt, everyone is on the take, everyone mistreats women, we’re living in a world without morals or principles and all that matters is whether you win…
To be continued…
As former prosecutors, @RepKathleenRice and I are requesting the @FBI and @FEC to investigate whether campaign donations were illegally paid to family members of @realDonaldTrump. https://t.co/pVj2F0reIy
— Ted Lieu (@tedlieu) December 19, 2020
dmsilev
Look at it this way: Every million dollars that Jared and the rest of that family grifted away was a million dollars less that they had to spend on ads, GOTV, etc. We should be thanking Jared for being such an efficient parasite.
Baud
I actually don’t think Trump will end up in jail, but I still have hope for Jared.
Jim Appleton
Jared would know he’s doing wrong if …
OzarkHillbilly
That is some first class shade Waldman is throwing up there.
Villago Delenda Est
Kushner needs to die in prison, 40 or so years hence.
Baud
Open thread? Some of us were talking about this the other day.
Citizen Alan
After all these years, I have yet to see a single picture of Jared Kushner where he looks remotely human. I don’t think I’ve seen one where he even attempted to smile.
dmsilev
And speaking of Jared, the Post’s latest ‘how Trump fucked up the COVID response’ story has, as one might expect, lots of Jared. Sample:
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud: It looks and sounds like a brand of laundry detergent. Just stick with Latino and Latina.
Villago Delenda Est
@dmsilev: Old Army saying: “Amateurs talk tactics; professionals talk logistics.”
Jared doesn’t even qualify as an amateur.
John Revolta
@Baud: Well, it’s not like he’d bring disgrace on his family or anything. Hell, maybe he could get Dad’s old cell.
Chetan Murthy
@Baud: His pappy can visit him every week.
Martin
Haha! I’m just reading todays news now and the idea of Sidney Powell as Special Council to investigate the election just proves this timeline can’t get any dumber. January is going to be fucking wild, and not in a good way.
Starfish
@Baud: I feel like all the assets should be frozen at 12:01pm on January 21 until there is a thorough investigation of all the financial misdeeds starting with the stealing of all the inauguration funds.
Villago Delenda Est
@Starfish: Should happen as part of OHJB’s inaugural address the day before. Before the money flees to the Caymans.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Villago Delenda Est:
Well, it’s meant to be more inclusive for non-binary Hispanic people. Latino and Latina and inherantly gendered. I’m not sure what the solution is but that’s why Latinx was created
Also, since it’s an OT, directed at nobody in particular: is the Medium Cool thing happening tomorrow? It’s every Sunday, right? I couldn’t find a time for it. I haven’t started listening to the Winds of Change podcast
Martin
@dmsilev: Read this yesterday.
These people don’t know what the fuck they’re doing and they’re the laziest fucking people on earth. Government is all about grinding out solutions that the free market would simply route around. They can choose their market, they can let a need surface and let some other company jump in and meet that need, government can’t do either. You do 100% of the job for 100% of the people, not 10% of the job for 10% of the people.
John Revolta
@Citizen Alan: You asked for it
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/03/jared-kushner-security-clearance
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
Is there a real chance of her becoming special counsel? I understand the (acting) AG would have to agree to it. I really really don’t want this mad woman spewing insanity well into the Biden administration from a government perch. Maybe there would be a way to marginalize her?
Baud
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
If it happens, she would be fired on Jan 20.
Ramalama
@Baud: Right? Apple falling tree, not far. Father, anyone?
Can we please make the elite who grievously broke the law just get some jail time?
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The acting AG would do it if Trump ordered him to. That’s why he’s the acting AG.
Kent
@Baud: “Latinx” is the stupidest thing ever according to my wife who is Chilean.
As she says…why is it that just the word “Latino” is offensive when the entire language is gendered? Are the busy bodies going to re-write the entire Spanish language?
Policx instead of Policia
Doctorx intead of Doctora
Perrx instead of Perro
Profesorx instead of Profesora
Abogadx intead of abogado
San Franciscx intead of San Francisco
Nevadx intead of Nevada
Coloradx intead of Colorado
San Antonix instead of San Antonio
and so forth
And if you don’t want the gendered term in English, use an English word like “Hispanic” instead.
Wyatt Salamanca
@Baud:
Let’s try to keep hope alive on this one. I’d certainly enjoy seeing Jared Pukestain end up behind bars.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
I thought special counsels couldn’t be fired? Except for cause…
Oh I see! She’ll fuck up and commit a fireable offense
John Revolta
@Baud: They just refuse to listen to everybody whitesplaining to them why they really ought to use it. Sad!
Baud
@Kent:
The article has an interesting example of more natural sounding options created by Spanish speakers. Using an “e” ending.
Wyatt Salamanca
@John Revolta:
For the win.
WaterGirl
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Medium Cool IS happening on Sunday at 6pm as usual, though without BG for a few weeks while he works on his book.
I had said we would talk about ut thus week or next, but I think next week is probably better to give more people time to listen to Wind of Change if they want to.
Baud
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
They can be.
Martin
@Baud: Not so easy. Only the AG can fire a Special Council and only with cause. Mind you, Sidney Powell should easily clear the ‘with cause’ part because she’s fucking insane, but the whole point of a Special Council is to be able to investigate the president and be immune from termination.
Aleta
Campaign donations? Or a way to request favors, pay bribes or transform money from illegal sources?
dmsilev
@Martin: Lovely. Not surprised though. I would take issue with one bit:
Maybe not in the medical field, but in the industrial world, temperature monitors that go much colder are easily available in bulk. Either a thermocouple or a PT100 resistance thermometer will cheerfully measure down to -200 C, and you can buy them by the thousands in pretty much any form factor imaginable.
Kent
@Baud:
@Kent:
The article has an interesting example of more natural sounding options created by Spanish speakers. Using an “e” ending.
Yes, the “e” ending is sort of leaking out of young “woke” university types in Argentina. We will see if it goes anywhere. Argentinian Spanish is so different from the rest anyway.
debbie
@Villago Delenda Est:
What he needs is a cellmate.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@John Revolta:
My understanding is that “Latinx” was created by nby (nonbinary) Latinos in and outside of academia, not “white people”. Which I assume is what you’re hinting at when you say “whiteplaining”
Matt McIrvin
This is the RT/Sputnik line on Vladimir Putin’s misdeeds, too. Birds of a feather.
About “Latinx”, I understand the anti- argument here, but the level of general glee over it makes me think a lot of people are just itching for some reason to throw nonbinary/gender-nonstandard people under the bus, and it reminds me of all the million attempts to pigeonhole feminist, gay or trans issues as a bourgeois white affectation, so I’m still a bit suspicious.
Bill Arnold
This is my favorite Jared image, viewed whenever I feel insufficient loathing for that arrogant faux MotU,
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
What glee? It’s an interesting topic, but almost none of us are invested in the issue. I think the article said ⅔ of Latinos haven’t even heard of the term.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@WaterGirl:
That sounds good! I don’t think I’d be able to listen to them all before tomorrow. I work 8-4
Kent
@Martin: The whole article is a bit confusing. What are these actual temperature sensors and how do they work? Are they WiFi or cellular enabled so that the company can monitor them remotely?
It just sounds like the company understandably doesn’t want to be liable for what happens to the vaccine after it leaves its control. If these are digitally monitored from remote locations it seems the simpler solution would be to just sign over control to OWS when they are delivered. Hand over the login codes or whatever.
Probably a case of too many damn lawyers getting involved into something simple.
Martin
@dmsilev: Yeah, but they’re referring to the whole package – a sensor plus display with integrated power and networking that is cheap enough to be disposable. Not hard to build, but not really a market for for those so you either need to contract to build to spec at scale on a short timeframe (a market that is almost exclusive to China) or you need to find that device OTS which you might find outside of China.
Baud
@Martin:
AG can revoke the delegation, I think. The subject matter isn’t worthy of investigation.
Raven
@Kent: When I was building an online Spanish course we had an Argentinian woman on the team. One time she wasn’t at a meeting and our Cuban colleague said “they are so arrogant but they speak soooo pretty”!
debbie
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Disagree. I can’t imagine a less competent counsel. Let’s start 2021 with non-stop laughter.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Californians: are you concerned about the recall effort underway for Governor? I’ve read the organizers have made significant progress and have until March to get the 1,500,000 or so signatures necessary
Kent
Spanish is a gendered language. Are you going to also change the thousands of other gendered titles, professions, and adjectives by which male, female, and nonbinary people are referred in Spanish?
Rather than adopting a Spanish language word like “Latino” into English and then changing it because you don’t like that the whole language is gendered, perhaps the better solution is to simply use a non-gendered English word in the first place, like “Hispanic.”
Mike in NC
Jared is the sniveling little shit I want most of all to go to prison. Maybe the cell his dad was in is available.
John Revolta
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): If there are people arguing for it, let them take it up with their fellow Spanish speakers. Others ought to stay the hell out of it.
Splitting Image
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
“Will” is the wrong tense formation here.
She is on the verge of being sued for libel and could be disbarred and charged with perjury based on what she’s done so far. Even if nothing is ever filed against her, she is an interested party to any investigation of the election and can’t be put in charge of it. It would be an enormous conflict of interest and simply accepting the job would be a fireable offense.
Obviously, rules about conflicts of interest won’t start applying again until January 20th, so she could take the job and make trouble for a month. She might even be stupid enough to do that, but Biden would send her packing PDQ if that happens.
Baud
@John Revolta:
It does have spillover effects on everyone, however, to the extent Spanish language traditionalists believe the issue is part of a larger lefty culture war agenda being pushed by Democrats. Then you get into the whole “defund the police” type of problem with some people. I don’t think this is there yet.
Baud
@Kent:
Why don’t people just use “Latin”?
gwangung
@Villago Delenda Est: Just to remind folks, non-binary and non-cis Latinx disagree….that’s why the term was invented.
Kent
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): According to Wikipedia which has a long discourse on the topic:
Redshift
@Martin:
Normally, yes, but that also may depend on whether the regulations were followed for appointing the special counsel. For Barr’s appointment making Durham a special counsel, he doesn’t qualify under the requirements that it be someone outside government, because he’s a current USAtty, and Barr basically said “I know this, but I’m declaring that he’s a special counsel anyway,” probably for no other reason than to make it difficult to fire him.
Since we all know how scrupulous Trump and his minions are about following the rules, it will probably be trivial that they didn’t properly appoint Powell, and she can be booted out posthaste. (Or, as previously noted, wait until the inevitable misconduct, which may happen even more quickly.)
John Revolta
@Kent: I got called out recently for using “Hispanic”- seems like many Latinos don’t like it. Seems to depend on what part of the country you’re in, among other things. Then ya got “Chicano”……..
Martin
@Kent: My guess is they’re cellular. The main reason why wifi isn’t used for many IoT things is that you need an interface on the device to get it on the network, something you don’t need with cellular. And that interface either adds a lot of cost or a lot of technical knowhow.
It’s not too many lawyers, it’s not enough experts. Nobody talked to care providers about whether they were equipped to take over the monitoring task. Pfizer almost certainly made it clear that they only had control up to the point of delivery, but the feds never thought through the implications of that, because they’ve never done such things.
We deal with that all the time in a host of different contexts, such that I’m experienced enough to ask that question as part of the contract discussions. And if I were coordinating on behalf of dozens, let lone thousands of distribution points, I’d immediately ask if we could take liability responsibility to my level, and how that would affect the contract, as it should lower the cost while also simplifying the whole effort, saving us more money.
But I have colleagues that don’t see it that way because they only care about their budget lines, and not the aggregate cost. And so rather than a $3/unit aggregate liability cost, they’ll chose the $2 from my budget and $2 from your budget (both within the same organization so we’ll both get chewed out by whoever our common boss is for fucking up their budget line) rather than take the responsibility to see the logistics and cost benefits and take on the additional work.
So the feds are paying Pfizer to cover liability through delivery, then the feds are paying the monitoring company extra to handle the hand-off of shutting down the units, then turning them immediately back on under a different account, plus the liability cost under the different account. I mean, it’s better than dumping the responsibility on Dippin Dots or whoever the fuck you think will handle distribution and discovering at the last minute that they can’t take the liability and can’t distribute.
I mean, this is contract writing 101 and I’m not a lawyer. But any project manager should have this experience. Knowing your end-to-end liability coverage is a check item. Anticipating the scale of the work that ought to be your job to do to bring this project to completion through the downstream partners is key to know as well. I’ve waved off projects because I knew I couldn’t get those endpoints on board. And if you MUST get them on board, which is a pretty common situation in government, then sometimes you just need to eat it at your level and eliminate that whole variable. It doesn’t seem like any of this was even considered, that once they got the contract signed they had their victory condition, could take their PR victory lap, and someone else would handle the distribution bit, because there was no glory in that.
Notable that nobody bothered to work on it until after the election.
different-church-lady
@Kent:
Of course we are! We’re liberals! And to liberals there is no crime worse that “using wrong words”.*
(HT to TBogg, but I never could find the post he first used it in.)
Martin
@Redshift:
Oh, that’s an excellent point. They’ll almost certainly fuck that up.
Baud
@John Revolta:
Chicano means of Mexican origin, no?
I don’t know if there is any distinction between Latino and Hispanic.
zhena gogolia
@Kent:
If it’s anything like Russian, there are native speakers of the language who are grappling with the gendered nature of it. It’s a very difficult problem, not limited to the single word “Latino.”
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Not yet.
rikyrah
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Raven: I’m taking a Spanish class, and the teacher (who is Colombian) occasionally has us listen to Spanish TED talks. I thought the accent of one was kind of interesting, slightly different from what I was used to, and I asked her about the accent. She replied that it was Argentinian and started rhapsodizing about how perfect the Argentinian accent was.
Kent
I don’t know. Latin America is distinguished from Spanish America I guess because of Brazil which is Portuguese not Spanish. Latino is short for Latinoamericano which is the Spanish for Latin American.
Surveys of the Latin American community within the US indicate that Hispanic is the preferred term, favored over Latino about about 2:1. But I think some young woke university types object to “Hispanic” because they think it contains a colonial tilt by including Spain and excluding non-Spanish speaking indigenous peoples from the Americas. But strictly speaking, Latino doesn’t include them either as the term refers to the Latin-languages of Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and French.
As a Spanish speaker, I’m happy to adopt new terms. But I don’t think it is too much to ask to come up with Spanish language terms that don’t hurt your ear in Spanish.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@zhena gogolia: Spanish, like other Romance languages, has a male and female version of many nouns, and when the gender is uncertain or refers to both, the male form is used.
For instance father = padre, mother = madre, but parents = padres. Son = hijo, daughter = hija, children = hijos.
Unless they start introducing a neutral form (which I guess is what the E thing is all about), that’s pretty hard-wired into the language.
Raven
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: This prof did readings of Pablo Neruda and much swooning occurred. Twenty years later they are still using the recordings in that online course.
zhena gogolia
Steve in the ATL
@Martin:
We refer to ourselves as “abogadx”
Raven
@Kent: And then there are Latin countries like Curaçao where English and Dutch are used along with Spanish.
Kent
Chicano means of Mexican origin but I only really ever heard the term used in California, never Texas, for example. I think it has mostly gone out of use.
Strictly speaking: Latino would be of Latin American origin including the Portuguese-speaking Brazil but not Spain or Portugal.
Hispanic would be of Spanish-speaking origin including Spain but not Brazil
But in in common use, no one really makes that distinction.
Raven
@Steve in the ATL: Watchin the game?
Steve in the ATL
@Raven: roll tide! Drinking Sequoia Grove cab and rooting for the gators to lose! No offense, Betty C….
Baud
@Kent: Thanks.
Kent
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Argentina, like Guatemala, uses the term “vos” instead of “tu” which gives you a whole different set of verb conjugations. I learned my Spanish in the Peace Corps in Guatemala so learned the vos form. My wife is Chilean and it gives her family no end of amusement to hear me speak like a Guatemalan campesino.
There are a ton of Italian immigrants in Argentina and I think the accent is somewhat influenced by Italian, which is why it sounds different and perhaps more lyrical.
debbie
@rikyrah:
I really wish Biden would call them out on this right now, not after Jan. 20.
Raven
@Steve in the ATL: Some serious hittin goin on.
Martin
Y’all are discovering the looming crisis in survey design. By shifting authority for identity from others to the individual, you create a situation where it becomes nearly impossible to gather statistical data that reflects that diversity of identity and represent it in a manner that is useful to the survey administrators.
The effort to measure things like gender diversity is more or less incompatible with the variety of ways that people identify themselves. So how do we handle this – do we stop trying to measure gender diversity (because there are places that REALLY need to be measured/monitored) or do we accept that we’re going to have to ask people to attach labels to themselves which are close, but not how they self-identify?
We’re seeing that with the federal ‘two or more’ race category as our students are rapidly approaching a point where they will all be ‘two or more’, thereby rendering the whole exercise pointless.
Danielx
@Martin:
GTFO.
Baud
@Kent:
I’m teaching myself Spanish, but I’m skipping the vos and vosotros forms. Usted all the way. Maybe if I get good enough, I’ll try to add on the other forms.
Kent
It is also a response to interest-group pressure within the US. Which is why we had the 5 census categories: White, Black, Indian/Alaska native, Asian, and Hawaiian/Pacific islander with the cultural term Hispanic as an overlay. Even though they don’t make sense racially or culturally anywhere outside of the US.
frosty
I’ve heard the same about Bolivia and Colombia. Cuba on the other hand …
Kent
@Baud: You don’t really need to learn the “tu” form unless you get a girlfriend or teach kids.
Using “usted” with your girlfriend is like calling her “Ma’am.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Baud: I believe vosotros is used only in Spain. In most of Latin America, Ustedes is used for both formal and informal plural.
@Kent: I’ve run into many people who default to “tu”. It seems to vary with age and country. I wait to see how I’m addressed. but definitely go with “Usted” until I’m sure. Some people say that “Usted” makes them feel old.
In your experience, are Mexicans especially formal? Maybe that’s another generational thing, but I’ve only heard phrases like “con su permiso” or somebody addressed as “Doña” from Mexicans.
Raven
@frosty:
Keith P.
@Kent: That sounds kinda like a Larry David bit.
Kent
@frosty: A lot of international Spanish TV hire Colombian announcers and actors for things like dubbing of English films and for newscasts and such because it is the most neutral form of Spanish, most easily understood by others.
So if you turn on the Spanish language dubbing in Neflix chances are you are going to hear a Colombian accent. Colombia also has, by far, the biggest film and TV industry in South America.
frosty
@Raven: OK, I sit corrected. :-)
Kent
@Keith P.: Yeah, and if a woman is using “usted” with her boyfriend there is probably some S&M dominance thing happening there. Like if your girlfriend is always calling you “sir”
Raven
@frosty: I was the only non-Spanish speaking person on the team. I don’t know shit except what they said.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kent: Don’t judge Baud’s relationships.
Raven
@Kent: “Don’t call me ma’am, I’m not the bloody queen”! Jane Tennyson
Cameron
@Kent: …and with tears in her eyes! “Sir,” she said to me, “sir – Mr. President…thank you!” Yooge and bigly!
Chetan Murthy
@Kent: Two things:
(1) my understanding is, it was Latin-Americans, who came up with the term, not white people. White people started using it out of respect. Now, maybe they were wrong to do so, but I’d cut them some slack: they’re trying, after all.
(2) In French, another heavily-gendered language, there is in fact a vigorous debate about this very subject: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9minisation_des_noms_de_m%C3%A9tiers_en_fran%C3%A7ais
My French friend sent me this, when I asked him about Edith Cresson’s husband, and how he was named. At the time, it was Mr. Le Premier Ministre for the prime minister, and Madame La Premiere Ministre for his wife. And [I was working in France at the time] remember distinctly talk about addressing her as Mme. Le Premier Ministre, and (I suppose but do not know) her husband as Monsieur La Premiere Ministre.
30yr later, there is a vigorous debate.
Emma from FL
As a Cuban-American I have been forced to accept Latino for American purposes but I will accept Latinx when y’all accept Europeanx and all people from the Far East accept Asianx.
Raven
@Kent: Don’t call me sir, I work for a living.
Kent
Speaking of….
This is in today’s Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/latinx-latinos-unpopular-gender-term/2020/12/18/bf177c5c-3b41-11eb-9276-ae0ca72729be_story.html
So Latinx cost us votes in Florida and Texas? Hmmmm.
Read the whole thing.
Amir Khalid
@Chetan Murthy:
You’ve piqued my curiosity. How would one address the husband of a male Prime Minister?
Chetan Murthy
@Amir Khalid: Ha! I’ll ask my friend!
Jinchi
That’s an interesting detail. Mike Pence was in the cool kids club the whole time.
Kent
I think it was more self-identifying Latino college kids in the US of whom my own daughter was one, having just graduated with a communications degree. No one in Latin America outside Puerto Rico uses the term. She is white and privileged (and a blonde southern sorority girl) but likes to be Latino too.
Gin & Tonic
@Kent: And why they’ll say “buenissimo!”
trollhattan
@Amir Khalid:
“Yo!”
Danielx
@Cameron:
Would there were knitting needles I could plunge into my mind’s eye.
Mind you, a guy who has to appear so dominant in every public setting, well, you have to wonder if his twig is bent in a different direction in private. Which is almost worse, what with the image of Melania using a flogger on his pasty white ass.
I have GOT to stop….:
Kent
@Gin & Tonic: I did notice that the stop signs in Argentina all say “PARE” instead of “ALTO” like in Mexico.
I wonder if that is also the “safe word” in Argentina.
Jinchi
Yeah, I don’t think so.
But Latinx is an awkward kluge, and replacements like Latine seem more natural.
It’s similar to American English where ‘they’ has effectively become a gender-neutral third person singular form via common usage without most people even thinking about it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Emma from FL: I doubt that Cheeseheadx will ever catch on.
geg6
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Go listen and binge it. It’s great fun.
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven: Bullshit, you’re retired.
VeniceRiley
Will we clean our own English house first? Mr. And Mrs. and Ms.? Can I interest you in a subscription to Mx. Magazine? First edition guest edited by Glorix Steinem!
Raven
@Omnes Omnibus: e
sir!
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven: Alright then.
tokyokie
@Baud:
Brazilians are Latinos, but they aren’t Hispanics.
Rand Careaga
On the Latino/Latinx/Hispanic usage kerfuffle: my grandfather was born in Mexico, crossed the Rio Grande without benefit of formalities in 1916, and my father was born just a few years later, and Spanish was his first language (when I accompanied him to Mexico City on a family vacation in the sixties, he affected a lisping “Castilian” diction, which, I noticed with considerable embarrassment, caused the locals to roll their eyes).
My generation of Careagas, however, grew up thoroughly assimilated in Eisenhower’s America. We knew that we had an “ethnic” surname, and Grandfather C spoke English with an almost impenetrable accent, but we regarded ourselves as bog-standard suburban—read “white”—Americans.
Fast forward to 1980 and I am working in a lowly clerical position for the venerable San Francisco firm of Flatline, Comatose, Torpor & Drowse (BrainDead Systems since an ill-considered 2003 merger), doing data entry on a green-phosphor terminal. Suddenly there looms before me the Regional Vice-President: “Cah-ree-gah,” he says, mispronouncing it, something I was long accustomed to by then. “That a Hispanic name?” “It is,” I replied, sensing where this was going. “Good. Good! They been after us to hire and promote more Hispanics”—I should interject here that even in those days FCT&D did enough business with the Feds that they liked to give at least lip service to the political climate du jour, and this was late Carter administration—“but where do you find a qualified Hispanic? I mean, really!”
It bears mentioning that the adjacent terminals left and right were manned by native Spanish speakers. “Where indeed?” I responded awkwardly.
Well, the upshot is that two days later I was yanked from data entry and into a coveted slot in the “International Division,” a professional career track. FCT&D got to tell the Feds that they’d promoted me, and did not have to put up with any annoying “ethnic” mannerisms or demands (they’d been burned by the last guy they so elevated, who really was a thoroughly worthless employee). It’s funny, though, because over the years I’ve frequently been mistaken for an Englishman, because I speak as I write in subordinate clauses, but never as a grandson of Mexico.
My younger brother (b. 1961) did not put himself aggressively forward as Hispanic, but quietly advanced that counter at various junctures of his academic career, and I have the impression that it has served as a passive defense in the course of some of these in-house political struggles. He and I are, understandably, indifferent to the present issues of nomenclature.
opiejeanne
@Baud: When I was in college, back in the Dark Ages, the Latin American & Mexican American college kids started embracing the term, “chicano”. They said it is derived from the word “chicanery”, that to be referred to as chicano was an insult when the word began but they decided to turn it around and referred to themselves that way. I’m not sure that’s true, that it was derived from chicanery. I’ve read that it is from a NA word, probably noted on Wikipedia
Major Major Major Major
@Matt McIrvin: we have very clear data that American Latinos don’t use or identify with the word Latinx, most of them haven’t even heard of it. “Latinx” is a bourgeois white affectation.
gwangung
@Major Major Major Major:
My brown friends firmly disagree.
Delk
I’m half Mexican. Does that make me Bispanic?
opiejeanne
@frosty: Cuban Spanish is … interesting. My best friend is Guatemalan, came to the US as a young girl. She was visiting us and I introduced her to my daughters’ ballet teacher, a Cuban. Her Spanish sounded elegant to me, while his sounded like he was chewing the words, but they understood each other.
Major Major Major Major
@gwangung: obviously the community is not a monolith—your friends must be in the lucky three percent. https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/
My Latino friends all make fun of it ??♂️
Obviously people can call themselves whatever they want, but it’s far from being the preference of the broader community, and we shouldn’t behave to the contrary.
Gravenstone
@Martin: This isn’t rocket science. It isn’t even new technology. We purchased third party temperature recorders to ship with thermally sensitive products. All you have to do is plug them into a USB port and you can download the temperature profile for the entire trip to ensure product viability. These fucking idiots didn’t even try to follow through on ensuring full time temperature monitoring.
Suzanne
@Baud: You’re learning usted but not tu? Weird.
Mr. Suzanne is a bilingual speech-language pathologist. Up until this year, he lived in CA and AZ his whole life. We’re both super-used to Mexican Spanish, to the point that I didn’t recognize the language the first time I heard Spanish people speaking it. When I learned Spanish, I was not taught the vosotros forms because my teacher wanted us to be able to speak primarily to our Mexican classmates.
Craig
@Raven: Well played. I just watched Prime Suspect 7. When she delivers that line there’s almost a little wink from her. When they shot that show she’d just wrapped The Queen, which I find pretty hilarious as a little production easter egg.
Mike in NC
On the TV show “Six Feet Under”, one of the characters working at a funeral home in Los Angeles was a Puerto Rican guy, and he sometimes got into it with the local Mexican-Americans, who would ask him, “Dude, where the hell are you from?”
SFAW
Now that y’all have settled the whole Latino/Latina/Latinx/Latine/Latinoj thing, can you get to work on the “literally”/”figuratively” issue?
SFAW
@Craig:
Was the Queen a little too tightly wrapped?
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: literally literally means figuratively in the dictionary so I’d say the lexicographers finally caught up with the language.
Descriptivism: it’s easy!
Suzanne
@Rand Careaga: My and my husband’s surname is not super-common, but is derived from Latin and is found in Italian, Mexican, Spanish, and Dominican families. White people (and we ARE white people, FFS) slaughter it all the time. Howev, now there’s a famous pro ball player with the same name (not a relative), so someone gets it right just a touch more often these days.
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
Literally?
NotMax
@SFAW
It’s on the list, sirx or madamx.
CaseyL
“Latine” makes more sense to me than “Latinx,” not least because I know how to pronounce it! (LaTinks? Please. You know that’s gonna get bastardized and trivialized into LaTwinks.)
The kerfuffle over gendered pronouns reminds me of the meltdown among SciFi’s conservative fans over Anne Leckie using female pronouns for everyone in her Ancillary trilogy. It was a joy to see so many RWNJs having conniptions. I also enjoyed the undeniable mental frisson reading the books gave me: it was unsettling, in a good way.
SFAW
@NotMax:
Thanks, NotManx.
ETA: Oops, sorry, should be “Thanx”
WaterGirl
@SFAW: I think the Israeli-Palestinian issue is next, but maybe literally and figuratively can be up after that.
Martin
@Gravenstone: That doesn’t work. You can’t rely on thousands of end users to do that reliably (the grocery store is the one administering the vaccine in my moms area).
This is remote monitored with on-device feedback. If the temp is exceeded or the number of openings exceeded, the on-device monitor needs to indicate that the batch can no longer be used. It needs to work in a clinical setting under uncontrollable conditions and it needs to basically be failsafe. You’re describing an ODB II port, not a flashing light on the dashboard that says ‘DO NOT USE’.
Like I said, the components are easy – the solution is not so easy.
But Pfizer had already solved that problem, all the feds needed to do was take administrative responsibility, and they either forgot to or refused to.
Major Major Major Major
@CaseyL:
I have observed this in the wild!
SFAW
@WaterGirl:
SUCH a kidder, you are. Didn’t Jared already fix that?
Speaking of Jared, is there a German version of “face so smug-looking that it requires application of a Louisville Slugger”? [ETA: Because Backpfeifengesicht doesn’t really cut it, in my estimation.]
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kent:
Um you might want to read a little further in the section you quoted:
I personally don’t have a dog in this race. I think it’s probably a kludgy term where Latine might work better. I don’t think anybody is trying to force Latinx on anybody and I don’t think it cost any tangible amount of votes. Really, if “Latinx” made somebody vote for Trump over Biden I question how gettable they were in the first place; such a voter would be a moron
The Pale Scot
Since it’s an open thread can I share a bit of joy. Children of a friend of the family who’s mom is a.., well a Florida women were put into foster care while I was in the hospital. They’ve had a shitty year. After talking to the social worker and dealing with a lot friction since I can’t know where they are I was able to send presents to an Amazon locker for the fosters to pick up. Since the fosters have 2 kids I got them stuff too. I told the fosters to tell The Terrors that Santa put one of his top Elves on the job this year. Hopefully I’ll get vids and pics.
In this shitfest of a year, this is the most fun I’ve had
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@dmsilev: i also suspect this why the stories that Trump’s big donors dried up; they figured out he was just pocketing their money.
Gravenstone
@Kent:
This reminds me of a minor gaffe I made in college. One of the guys in our small dorm was from Puerto Rico. His mother called while he was out and when I told him “tu madre called”, he just about died laughing. Apparently I had put way too much emphasis on “tu”, with the effect basically being “yo mama called”. That was good for a laugh the rest of the year.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Probably a bit more subtle than that. Since your adverage Hispanic calls themselves by their families nation of origin these weird names like “Latinix” make them wonder of the Democrats are really paying attention.
gwangung
@Major Major Major Major: Well, yes….but let’s not pretend that there isn’t support in some parts; where I am, there are a fair number of non-cis gendered and non binary folks, so the term makes a fair amount of sense, and I’m not going to contest it. (And it’s certainly true that terms of identity are not static; I’ve gone from Third World people to POC to BIPOC to global majority, so…)
Zelma
@Rand Careaga:
My university was not known for diversity of any sort. Happened that the dean of the college counted as a two-fer: a woman and Hispanic. Of course, her Hispanic name was her married name; she was German. But she was a woman – and a good dean.
Major Major Major Major
@gwangung: I wouldn’t dream of contesting what somebody wants to be called, but if I was writing a press release for the broader community I definitely wouldn’t reach for it. And I guess I’m reacting to well-meaning white people who *would*, which as a completely unhelpful piece of anecdata is the majority of times I see it used.
Emma
Twitter link, so that at least phone users can read the article, but Connie Chung had some WORDS to dish out about the TV news industry, along with some thoughts on someone she’d Rather not name *wiiiiink*: https://twitter.com/angryasianman/status/1340459682972925952?s=20
Omnes Omnibus
I believe the term is jaredkushner.
cain
@Kent:
Also what about us Indians? I have desi(x) I have no idea what the gender all inclusive term is supposed to be.
Our languages is probably going to go through a lot of changes with trying to include the non-binary types. It’s going to be hard to retrofit everything into these ages old languages.
cain
Well shit, I wish Obama had put in some kind of special counsel that would hound Trump the entire 4 years.
cain
@Kent:
They are right to be paranoid – the Trump administration will sue them.
NotMax
@Emma
Connie Chung shredded whatever professional credibility she may have had the instant she signed on to host Big Brother.
NotMax
@cain
Gandhix.
;)
cain
@Omnes Omnibus:
We might need to change the spelling to ‘Bawd’ instead of ‘Baud’. :D Although I looked it up and the Shakespearean meaning of Bawd is quite hilarious.
JAFD
@Kent: Mr. JAFD dwells in the neighborhood of Newark settled by the Portugese – and the Brazilians, Angolans, immigrants from Mozambique (whom I know have a unique name, but which I know not offhand), and other Lusophone parts of the world. The questions of how they fit into the typology of ‘Latinos’ …
And let us not forget the Italians…
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kent:
What’s Green Balloons in Spanish?
Emma
@NotMax: … are you seriously mixing up Connie Chung with Julie Chen? And even if she DID host Big Brother, why would that discredit her experience of being constantly told that only Barbara Walters and Diane Sawyer could have the prestige interviews?
cain
@Delk:
Aren’t we all – bi -something? I mean I’m half aryan and dravidic? :-) Actually I suspect I am more aryan than dravidic.
cain
@opiejeanne:
Have you heard Puerto Rican spanish? They speak really fast and drop words. They get uptight with Mexicans because they talk too slow. That was about 33 years ago. Dunno what the attitude is now. I was on spring break with a bunch of puerto ricans .. that was.. interesting.
NotMax
@Emma
Mix up on my part. Haven’t watched broadcast network TV in years and years so names and faces get jumbled.
cain
@NotMax:
lol – I wonder if Gandhi was in fact non-binary – the man was wierd. An amazing person for sure – but all those amazing people have some strangeness to them.
Emma
@NotMax: yeah, sorry that I was a little snappy, I still have trauma from working under a racist white woman who was protected by the (also white) higher-ups despite her sheer incompetence, so I felt Connie Chung’s pain deeply. Edit: not actual trauma, to be clear, I didn’t have to seek therapy or anything, but boy do I have stories.
The Pale Scot
@Emma from FL:
I willing to accept “Paddiex /s
Origuy
“Tu madre” has a stronger connotation than that. The implication is that there is a missing verb in the phrase, chingar, which means to fuck. If you want to say your mother in a familiar way, “tu mamá” is suggested. Also, don’t do “shave and a haircut” on your car horn in Mexico. That sound is also called “tu madre”. The same goes for grandmother, “tu abuelita” is safer.
Citizen Alan
@John Revolta: how unsurprising that Jared attempting to smile like like a normal human hoping no one noticed they just farted.
VeniceRiley
@Emma: Beat me to it only because I forgot Julie Chen’s name. Connie Chung is beloved in the LA TV market form her local anchor days. Smart and funny. Julie Chen is an asshole married to a sex pest.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@VeniceRiley: I actually remember Connie Chung back when she was the junior person in the White House Press Corpse during Watergate, then she was a local anchor here in LA.
Gravenstone
@Origuy: Yeah well, the nice old lady who taught me HS Spanish didn’t cover such trivialities as colloquial familiar speech. As I noted, the kid had the grace to have a sense of humor about it. In a different environment, likely a different outcome.
Brachiator
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I remember her mainly as a local LA anchor. There was Tricia Toyota on one channel and Connie Chung on another. Both were personable and competent.
Mary G
@VeniceRiley: I got all huffed up ready to defend Connie, but you and Emma got it done first.
Ruckus
@Origuy:
I haven’t heard “Tu madre” in a long time. And I live in an area of socal where Spanish may not be the first language but it’s probably close.
I wonder if I’m out of touch or if it’s not in as much use as it used to be? I mean it was so common that I used to use it on occasion.
Ruckus
@Origuy:
Yes, when I first heard the phrase it was explained to me that chingar was left out on purpose and the english translation was in fact fuck your mom. But leaving that out made the phase have a bit wider usability.
rikyrah
I mean…
None of this can be a surprise.
Everyone knew that they were stealing everything not nailed down ?
Now, these are the rich rubes they have been ripping off.
The post-election scam is the poor rubes.
Not my money, so, I don’t care.
They knew who they.supported.
Mary G
If I missed discussion of this earlier, sorry. WaPo article:
Lou Dobbs debunks his own claims of election fraud — after a legal demand from Smartmatic.
Lou had to have a guy with a Hispanic name (oh, the horror!), Edward Perez, an expert with the nonprofit Open Source Election Technology Institute in a segment where he said many, many claims about voting machines multiple hosts and guests have made are completely false.
and
and, the best part, bold mine:
Fox had to run the segment on Judge Jeannine and Maria Bartiromo as well. NewsMax has told Smartmatic to fuck off, and OAN has no comment.
It’s nice to see Fox have to admit to multiple lies, not that I think it’ll change a single deplorable’s mind. Moar, please.
Sister Golden Bear
@Matt McIrvin:
I’m definitely seeing outsized umbrage here — similar to the folks getting bent out of joint over the use of singular “they/them” — which is hella disappointing.
As Goku said, “Latinx” was created by queer/trans/non-binary folks of Latin American heritage, so it’s hardly whitesplaining. It was created precisely because the gendered language of Spanish didn’t allow space for their identities.
Whether it resonates with their larger communities is a different matter, and I’ll defer to whatever they work out for themselves. (Although personally I think Latine and -e endings for words is an elegant solution.)
rikyrah
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Recall…for what reason?
Jay
https://theintercept.com/2020/12/18/afghanistan-cia-militia-01-strike-force/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=theintercept&utm_source=twitter
hervevillechaizelounge
Random factoid: Connie Chung has been married to Maury Povitch since the ’80s.
Jay
@rikyrah:
GOP, big money, low bar, Pandemic closures and mask rule.
Brachiator
@Sister Golden Bear:
It was suggested by some folks of Latin American heritage. The Spanish speaking world is huge, and in Southern California, I only hear a small cadre of college students ever use the term.
Similarly, there is no uniformity in the use of terms such as Chicano, Latino, Hispanic (which is totally made up and does not really exist in the Spanish language).
Among Spanish speaking co-workers, friends, and relatives, the word just has not yet taken hold. It may in the future or something else may come along.
Jay
@Brachiator:
the same people using Latinx are the same people using them/they/helicopter,
In Kamloops, maybe once every two years, I encountered someone sensitive or affirmative of pronouns,
Here in Vancouver, once a day.
opiejeanne
@cain: I grew up in LA County, so almost all of the Spanish speakers were Mexican Americans, and we all thought they talked too fast. I’ve heard Puerto Ricans a few times and it was much faster.
My Spanish is very limited, a few useful words, the stuff you pick up from friends and neighbors. One of the charming kids at my elementary school taught me some dirty words in Spanish.
opiejeanne
@rikyrah: Probably because he’s a Democrat. They did this to a previous governor, Gray Davis, and the result was Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.
rikyrah
@Jay:
Recall over pandemic measures????
Jay
@rikyrah:
yurp.
Brachiator
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Too soon to tell if this will amount to anything. A lot of people are angry that businesses have been shut down, but the wider distribution of the vaccine kinda deflates their defiance.
Jay
@Brachiator:
ReThugs are good at tapping into, nurturing and exploiting anger for votes.
The Democratic Party, not so much.
Otherwise, working for barely a living and relying on food banks, go fund me’s and other charity could be useful.
Brachiator
@Jay:
This is not just a Republican v Democrats thing. A lot of people have pandemic fatigue. But right now I don’t know if it is enough to sustain a recall campaign.
Jay
@Brachiator:
ReThugs and their allies are good at playing the blame game, misdirection.
Up here, it’s a little bit different. Not a lot of people are willing to die as an “essential worker” for minimum wage when you can stay home, and get up to $4800 a month,
to stay the fuck home.
Ian
@Kent:
Many Central and South American countries have a white/black (not nearly as binary as ours) divide, over time this has led to the developement of 3 “castes” historically, black, white, and mixed. Strong anti-miscegenation laws in the United States have historically prevented whites and blacks from intermarrying, leading to small mixed populations in the US before 1960. While other American countries may not have the same intensity of white/black divide as the United States, it is a feature of almost every western hemisphere colonial society.
oatler.
Latinx only seems popular on the AV Club site. People should look to Germany or Greece, whose languages use three genders, as does every eastern European country. Maybe Esperanto was better.
OK, you try learning Hungarian.
Lobo
To add to the confusion of terms for “Latino”:
The quest to save a dying Spanish dialect in Colorado’s San Luis Valley: “A treasure that exists nowhere else in the world”
I refer to myself as Latino, Chicano, Hispanic, Hispano, New Mexican, etc. It depends on the setting. It can get complicated. But I am also chill on asking others how they refer to themselves and respect it. It beats getting into semantic fight. “Latinos” are diverse. As another example, people from Southern Colorado and Northern New Mexico and beyond have a distinct history. I celebrate the diversity and prefer not to get get too hung up on labels. Even though, my parents are from S. Col & N. Mex., my Spanish is a mix of my parents’, Guatemalan and Argentinean.