After the mostly peaceful BLM protests following George Floyd’s murder, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed wholly unnecessary bills to crack down on demonstrations. It gave DeSantis an excuse to strut around on Fox News and yap about “law and order” to advance his presidential ambitions. But the laws are now being applied to protesters who are shutting down roads and assaulting cops to call attention to anti-regime protests in Cuba, a cause Florida Republicans favor.* [Tampa Bay Times]
TAMPA — Two men arrested in Tampa during Tuesday’s protests against the Cuban government appear to be among the first Tampa Bay defendants held under Florida’s divisive new “anti-riot” law.
Julian Rodriguez-Rodriguez, 30, of Tampa and Maikel Vasquez-Pico, 39, of Riverview, were arrested by Tampa police on charges of battery on a law enforcement officer, resisting law enforcement and taking part in an unlawful assembly that blocked streets or sidewalks, records show.
Until a few months ago, Rodriguez-Rodriguez and Vasquez-Pico would have been able to post bail immediately according a pre-set bond schedule. But jail records show that both men were being held Wednesday until their first appearance in court because of HB 1, the bill passed by the Republican-led Legislature and championed by Gov. Ron DeSantis, who signed it into law in April.
Oops!
I don’t think there will be any political fallout for DeSantis, not even if thousands of Cuban-American Republican-voting protesters are jailed or run over by angry motorists. Republican voters just don’t punish their own elected officials, even if they are embarrassing failures who kill hundreds of thousands of Americans through incompetence, hubris and self-interest. But at least we can note the irony of it all.
Open thread!
*Especially Marco Rubio, who has been territorial-pissing all over Twitter about the protests in Cuba with the desperation of an undersized wiener dog whose compound has been invaded by a pack of Irish wolf hounds. Don’t even look, for chrissakes. It’s vicariously embarrassing, even if you loathe the sweaty little dweeb.
skerry
I guess the men are lucky no one drove into them while they blocked the street.
eponymous coward
Countdown about someone complaining about leopards weren’t supposed to eat HIS face after Governor DeSantis signed that bill about leopards eating faces in 3…2…1…
Spanky
Mmmmm. That new-thread smell! It was getting pretty ripe downstairs.
Spanky
Their mistake was going after cops. If they’d kept to demonstrating, no one would be arrested, and certainly no lefty is going to drive into them, ’cause that’s not what we do.
Steeplejack
I’m a little surprised the cops even enforced it against right-leaners. But maybe being brown trumps that.
waspuppet
DeSantis is working hard right now. No, not figuring out a way to do something about this law, silly — figuring out how close he can come to flat-out saying “The point of the law was for each case to come to my desk personally so I can weigh the defendants’ political leanings and decide whether they should be charged” without scaring Axios off his presidential bandwagon.
He learned that from Trump, of course, who clearly wanted that.
Gozer
I saw where that weasely little shit Rubio criticized Biden’s statement in support of the Cuban people.
Apparently Rubes hates that Biden referred to the Cuban govt as authoritarian in the statement rather than Communist or Socialist.
EDIT: https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1414609991181406214?s=21
“cummunist”
Citizen Alan
@Gozer: Of course he does. Republicans were fine with Bautista. And if the current communist gov’t fall, they’ll be fine with a rightwing strong-man every bit as bad as Bautista replacing it.
raven
Xin Loi motherfuckers.
artem1s
Do we know yet if the charges actually fit the crime – actual battery, not just looking big and brown at some geared up SWAT cop – then they shouldn’t get automatic bail. If so, they are getting the treatment the 1/6 rioters should have gotten after exiting the Capitol. No need for a special law of course. That was always performance art by DeSantis. The Cubans who voted for TFG are finding out what the insurrectionists found out on 1/7 – underbussing is TFG’s super power.
Gozer
@Citizen Alan: I have family by marriage in Central and South FL, mostly Puerto Rican and Dominican and more on the conservative side. I’ve heard from them that it’s a not-so-hidden secret that So.FL Republicans are fine with the regime remaining in Cuba. That bogeyman keeps Cubans and Venezuelans moving in the GOPs direction. Not to mention the racism of a lot of white-identifying Latinos.
FelonyGovt
The Cuban people ARE in fact hungry and desperate, but of course the decades-long embargo is probably way more to blame than the Cuban government at this point. If the US had dealt with Cuba as it has with, say, Vietnam, things would be very different.
And I’m not sure Republicans really want the Cuban regime to fail, because it would be like finally outlawing abortion, in the “dog caught the car and now doesn’t know what to do with it” sense.
Baud
@Gozer:
Biden can just do what’s right w/r/t Cuba. If Florida wanted to have influence, they should have voted for him.
raven
@FelonyGovt: Yea, we need to apply Rolling Thunder to them!
MattF
IMO, right-wingers, in their unceasing efforts to own the libtards, have painted themselves into so many political corners that this sort of thing is inevitable. So, e.g., pro-Trump means pro-virus? Anti-demonstration means anti-Cuban? Give me a fking break.
Baud
@Citizen Alan:
Mark my words, they will hate Baudista! 20XX!
MattF
This is the strangest possible universe.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Hmm let’s see, what does the index say about that government type.
Cummunist – rule by those most able to function during group sex. See the Bonobo People’s Party “Brown Paper Bag” manifesto. Voters in a Cummist country typically claim they only “voted for the earmarks”,
germy
Lindsey Graham drooling over the situation in Cuba:
karen marie
@artem1s: From what I read, one punched a cop in the face and broke his glasses. One bear-hugged a cop who was arresting someone else.
germy
Psaki is great, as usual.
Eduardo
@Citizen Alan: The name of the 7-year, 60+ years ago dictator was Batista.
Baud
@Gozer:
I hate to give Trump any credit, but the man new how to use a sharpie for effect. Rubio’s attempt is sad.
germy
@FelonyGovt:
Didn’t Obama remove the embargo, only to have the former guy restore it?
FelonyGovt
@germy: Obama didn’t completely remove it, but he did ease travel and other restrictions and yes, TFG put it back the way it was.
germy
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Why we are never going to get out of this pandemic – I received this notification for a vaccine refusing client (“but blood clots, ooga-boogaloo”) about her prison guard ex (referred to hereinafter as Asshole 1) and his prison office employee current wife (referred to hereafter as Asshole 2). Seems that Asshole 2 tested positive for COVID, and Asshole 1 still insisted on picking up the child for his allocation of parenting time. Only after he’d had her a couple of days did he bother revealing it to my vaccine refusenik client. She did get the child at that point.
Anyway, what I’ve learned is that the entire exurban community where they live consists of vaccine and mask resistant Trumpist morons, with zero sense of self-awareness.
Enjoy this edited piece of my life:
germy
@FelonyGovt:
Obama: sane
Former Guy: insane
Eduardo
@FelonyGovt: No, no,no. There’s the repressive apparatus of a state that was full totalitarian for 4 decades propping a mafia that owns the part of the economy that deals with the outside economy (hotels, finances, everything that works in Cuba) and a full socialist economy for the rest of the Cubans (no economic rights of any class, say, if you are a small farmer you still can’t decide what to sow, if you are a computer programmer you have to work for peanuts for the estate, etc. Won’t bore you.
For almost everyone here. There is an armed insurrection that takes power and spent 17 before “institutionalize” itself. Then, from 1976 to 2021, they win every election in every county, province, national assembly. Every single seat. More, the opposition somehow doesnt manage to offer a candidate for any of those seats. Try to use your imagination to see what are the levels of repression that the Cuban people have endured.
Marco Rubio is right on this one. Why most Democrats can’t?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Daniels :
I will add: Asshole 1 and Asshole 2 have continued to work at a prison despite the COVID diagnosis of Asshole 2.
I’ve called the health department of the county covering the prison. She is in regular communication with the wardens of three prisons and will be bypassing all chains of command.
Steeplejack
@germy:
That was after the mayor of Miami said we should consider bombing Cuba. ?
gvg
@Citizen Alan: Actually back then, they weren’t fine with Baptista. The US and Floridians were kind of hoping for an overthrow of the corrupt bastard, they just didn’t want it to be a communist. And Castro pretended not to be communist to get some American support. My father grew up here. He heard plenty of recruitment rah rah before Castro succeeded and had a friend who went to help Castro and was never heard from again. His friend did not support communism. A lot of people were pretty anti Batista and very naive about…..well everything, especially revolutions. Cuba used to be an easy visit for ordinary Floridians and his generation was aware of how corrupt it was. Dad’s high school senior trip was going over to Cuba. It was easy and pretty cheap.
raven
@Steeplejack: Roling Thunder!
A Ghost to Most
Let me know when Florida rises above failed fascist state, or slips beneath the sea. My money is on the latter.
Baud
@Eduardo:
That’s a pretty easy way to discredit your point of view. “Most Democrats” understand the Cuban regime for what it is, even if we disagree with most Republicans as to how to deal with it.
Marco Rubio is not right. He is trolling in the most juvenile way that is inappropriate for the gravity of the situation.
Baud
@gvg:
Isn’t there a famous picture of Castro and Ike, before Castro came out as communist?
ETA: Better yet, Nixon in 59.
Steeplejack
@raven:
When all you’ve got is a hammer . . .
Cervantes
@Spanky: It’s not as thought progressives in general support the Cuban regime anyway. They did support Obama’s strategy of engagement, but that’s because it seemed a more plausible way to encourage reform in Cuba, whereas isolation hasn’t worked for decades.
raven
@Baud:
Well we blew past the army motorcade-and
It’s abnormal load haulage the gravity of the situation
Came on us like a bit of new knowledge the bubbliest bubble bath
Broke down on the bank the gravity of the situation
Is why our old thought bubbles sank humble
And gracious the gravity of the situation
Well, a fat hungry english crow is picking at a badger carcass
The gravity of the situation is hard to focus and harness well,
We met Bill Lowery at the Queen’s Hal lthe gravity of the situation
Became apparent to us all
Humble and gracious the gravity of the situation
Baud
@Cervantes:
To be fair, you can probably find a few people on the far left who defend the regime a la tankies. It’s false to suggest they are representative of mainstream progressives or Democrats.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
“They say that I was a terrible president of Cuba. That may be true. But I was the best president Cuba ever had.”
– Carlos Prío Socarrás
If you ever want to laugh while in Key West, there’s an emigre museum set up lionizing pre-revolutionary Cuba. At the end of the tour, there is a tribute wall listing all the El Jefe presidents of Cuba prior to Castro, whitewashing the history of corruption and violence inherent to each term – there were many, many presidents, sometimes multiple presidents a year. You’ll want to read the honorific plaques while your phone is open, and make sure to stifle your guffaws at the Confederate General levels of whitewashing.
I’ll add this – my Cuban clients have lone gone back and forth with no problems. You’d thing that they’d be afraid of being clapped in irons every time they go back.
kindness
I too frequently take for granted living out here in the People’s Republic of California. That is until I read stuff like Betty’s post here or the Department of Health in Tennessee curtailing all vaccine shots because there are too many right wing nut jobs running the state.
Thank the FSM I live out here.
Baud
@raven: There’s a song for every occasion.
raven
@Baud: Vic is quite a legend in these parts.
Cameron
Ms. Cracker, you’re a Floridian and I’m not. Is it time for me to split to the Old Country?
Eduardo
@Baud: Most of them do not defend openly the regime, it is hard to do it after 62 years of dictatorship. But boy, they deflect –Batista!, Marco Rubio!, exiles! embargo!.
I can give you a long list of greatest hits but let me give it just one, very recently, from the guy that was leading the nomination of the Democratic until the miracle of South Carolina happened: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/04/811729200/former-prisoner-recalls-sanders-saying-i-don-t-know-what-s-so-wrong-with-cuba
Again, 62 years, the opposition hasn’t managed to present a candidate for any city assembly seat.
gratuitous
So, does anyone know if the arrested Mr. Rodriguez-Rodriguez and Mr. Vasquez-Pico are likely to lose their voting rights should they be convicted and have to serve time or pay a fine?
Gravenstone
@skerry: Happened across a tweet showing the protest blocking the road. First comment noted the new legislation was explicitly intended to be used against this type of protest, but wondered if it would be since it’s essentially something Republicans supports. That petard, it be hoisted upon…
Baud
@Eduardo:
I have no idea how this is a deflection. Rubio made a fool of himself, so he put himself in the middle of the conversation.
@Eduardo:
I will let Sanders or his supporters defend himself. I for one don’t view him as representative of the majority of the party that he refuses to be a part of.
Gravenstone
@raven: Apparently the mayor of Miami is of a similar mind. He actually suggested that we bomb Cuba…
James E Powell
@Eduardo:
What is Rubio right about? What does he propose that the United States government do? Was he not able to convince his lord & master Trump to do it? Why not?
For Rubio, “Democrats” is just a straw man. Is it the same for you?
One thing we can be certain of is that the policy of embargo, sanctions, and barriers to travel haven’t done shit to help anyone living in Cuba.
Cacti
@Gravenstone: Miami Cubans are ready to fight for Cuba libre, down to the very last American.
raven
@Gravenstone: Yes, Steeple posted that a while ago.
sdhays
@Baud: I seem to recall something happening last year that pretty much established that he didn’t represent the majority of the party beyond a shadow of doubt. What was that?
Shalimar
@Eduardo: What exactly was Rubio right about? Biden called Cuba authoritarian, you call them totalitarian, Rubio called them communist or socialist. You’re trying to be descriptive, Rubio is just reading from a script.
I also heard a clip earlier where Rubio said it would be grounds for war if Cuba started sending us refugees again. I don’t think his primary concern is the oppressed Cuban people.
Omnes Omnibus
@Eduardo: What Democrats support the current Cuba government? Recognizing that an embargo that that has lasted longer than I have been alive has been ineffective at best in achieving anything positive does not equal support for the current government.
sdhays
@Gravenstone: Most people are really demanding to be bombed by the US government when they protest.
ETA: // in case it’s not clear
Baud
@sdhays: Right. Let’s ignore what the current Democratic administration is saying and focus on an article that contains hearsay about an independent who soundly lost to the current president for the real views about what Democrats believe.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Eduardo:
Sanders isn’t a Democrat/progressive/liberal. He’s an independent democratic socialist (and not a very good example of his ideology either). We may collaborate with him out of necessity, but he’s a delusional moron sometimes.
I liked many of his basic proposals, but I never cared for him personally. Always thought he’d make a terrible administrator (despite being Mayor of Burlington) and not get much done at all
Mike in NC
OK, how does that work? “I liked that name so much I used it twice!”
James E Powell
@Eduardo:
So you dug up some hearsay that isn’t even corroborated by the other people who were present. And you want to call that “the Democrats”?
Please note: Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat.
Gravenstone
@Mike in NC: Maternal and paternal family names.
Eduardo
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I want to laugh with you, because the history of corruption is 100% true and the violence is true for some of the governments (not all by any means). I also found provincial and ridiculous to lionize acritically the Republic years.
The truth is Cuba had a liberal system (government and economy) imposed on an illiberal society. At some point illiberalism fully won and a totalitarian regime was imposed with overwhelming popular support.
I won’t laugh though, because it is coming from someone who is clearly dismissing the horrors that came later: “I’ll add this – my Cuban clients have lone gone back and forth with no problems. You’d thing that they’d be afraid of being clapped in irons every time they go back.”
So there you go: The years before Castro bad!!! Nothing to see here!!!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@James E Powell:
@Baud:
I swear I’ve seen this “Eduardo” in the comments before a long time ago
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike in NC: Father’s last name was Rodriguez and so was the mother’s.
James E Powell
I’m sorry, I don’t really mean to play the “Hey, I’ve never seen that nym before!” game, but did a bunch of us just feed a troll?
cope
@kindness: Just to be clear, Tennessee has stopped programs aimed at encouraging vaccinations, not the actual vaccinations themselves. Although they have also stopped allowing schools to be used as vaccine sites.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gozer:
Christ, what an asshole.
Eduardo
@James E Powell: It was said but the guy the communists threw in jail and tortured — did you see the picture? And Sanders hasn’t denied. And for all effects he is a Democrat. If not for Rep Clyburn he would have been our nominee
Mike in NC
@Shalimar: I nominate Marco Rubio to lead the invasion of Cuba: Bay of Pigs 2.0. Fellow warmonger Lindsey Graham can be his deputy commander.
Baud
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I don’t remember. WaterGirl implored us to be open to different views, but it’s hard when people aren’t engaging in good faith.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus:
Pedro Gonzalez Gonzalez (May 24, 1925 – February 6, 2006) was an American character actor best known for his appearances in a number of John Wayne movies.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@James E Powell:
Maybe? He’s making incredibly ridiculous, strawman arguments. Then again Poe’s Law is a thing…
Baud
@James E Powell: Maybe. But see my comment at # 71. Concern has been expressed that we are not sufficiently open to opposing points of view.
FelonyGovt
@Eduardo: I married into a Cuban American family. I know how bad the Communist regime is and has been, and I don’t have any illusions about that. However, the US now has fairly friendly dealings and open travel with China, Vietnam (!) and other Communist countries. Why not Cuba? The embargo is a failed policy that has caused untold misery.
raven
@Baud: fuck that shit
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Eduardo:
As instrumental as Clyburn was in SC, Sanders was never popular with AA constituencies. That’s why he lost in 2016 too
Omnes Omnibus
@Eduardo: Bullshit.
sdhays
@Eduardo: I have no illusions regarding the regime’s brutality, but I also don’t see it as worse than lots of other countries the US is able to engage with. And I see decades of embargo and no engagement as a total failure and a tragedy in its own right.
What do you think should be US policy towards Cuba?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Eduardo:
It’s like this, Special Ed – my Cuban clients are laborers, restaurant workers, small business owners. They’re not special, have no big connections. Just boring, normal folks.
They can go back and forth without being molested by the Cuban government. Dunno why you seem to think that should be dismissed.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
This. Stating that fact does not mean one thinks the Cuban government is a shining paragon of freedom. More than one thing can true at the same time.
Gin & Tonic
@Eduardo:
And Donald Trump would have been re-elected.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@sdhays:
Probably bombing them back to the Stone Age, I’m sure
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
Yup
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@FelonyGovt:
Coz the old criminals that got chased out by the revolution spun tales in every cafe, coffeeshop and club on Calle Ocho about how Juan the manservant was eagerly awaiting the La Familia’s return so he could take his rightful place helping to restore the hacienda to prior glory.
WereBear
What this anti-Fauci MERCHANDISE DeSantis is selling? WTF?!?!?
Baud
@WereBear:
Just another way for them to separate their voters from their money.
J R in WV
When I did a goggle search for site:balloonjuice.com “Eduardo” I got just over a hundred hits.
Mostly for Rafael Eduardo Cruz and Don Eduardo tequila, though. So not a big commenter over the years…
ETA: Also, expecting today’s commenter Eduardo to actually propose a positive step forward is… well, OZian in forwardness.
When Wife and I lived in Key West long ago, there were missile bases hidden behind high berms of the bedrock of the Keys, and we carried .45 sidearms to watch the gangway onto the ship in the Navy harbor. The Cubanos were famous for the good food and the shrimp they supplied to the community. This was in 1970-73…
And of course I’m old enough to remember trying to dig a bomb shelter during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was 11 and using a pick and shovel on really hard sandstone caprock, didn’t get very far.
ETA 2 Pretty sure pre-Castro Cuba was owned and managed for profit by the American/Sicilian mob together with the Spanish plantation owners. My folks flew from Miami to Havana on their honeymoon to dance to the live orchestras in the clubs of Havana. They did love to dance their whole lives together.
James E Powell
@Baud:
Castigarlo con el látigo de al indiferencia.
Roger Moore
@Mike in NC:
Most Spanish-speaking people keep both their parents’ family names. Sometimes they’re given as two names and sometimes hyphenated. So, for example, someone whose mother was a Lopez and father was a Rodriguez would be Rodriguez Lopez. In normal usage, they would use only the father’s family name, and that’s the one that they would pass on to their own child. I guess that if both the parents are Rodriguez then the child might be a Rodriguez Rodriguez. FWIW, people with very common family names may choose to go by both names (e.g. Andres Manual Lopez Obrador, current President of Mexico) or just by their less common mother’s name (e.g. Pablo Ruiz Picasso, the painter).
The Pale Scot
Ain’t no Karen like a Jersey Karen..
One Two Three Four, get this psycho out the door
You gotta get going out
You gotta get going out
Frankensteinbeck
@Eduardo:
Sanders is not remotely mainstream on this issue. Indeed, related comments about communist authoritarians were one of the things that sank him in the 2020 primaries. Using him as a reference here is nutpicking.
Baud
@James E Powell: Sus palabras son sabias.
Cacti
@Mike in NC: People in Spanish cultures have multiple surnames, which at least includes the surname of their father, and the first surname of their mother.
Artist Pablo Picasso’s full name was:
Pablo Diego Jose Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno Maria de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santisima Trinidad Ruiz y Picasso.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@The Pale Scot:
Soccer flop.
Betty Cracker
@Eduardo: 1) No one here supports the Cuba regime, ffs. 2) Marco Rubio is a whiny little pissant clout-chasing opportunist who has never truly been right about anything in his entire worthless life. He’s incidentally right that the Cuba regime is repressive and terrible, but he doesn’t really give a flying fuck about how it affects Cubans in Cuba. He is, as ever, looking for political advantage in someone else’s tragedy.
Chetan Murthy
@gvg:
Uh, googling around, I find (for instance) this NYT article: https://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/12/books/backing-the-wrong-tyrant.html and https://www.cfr.org/timeline/us-cuba-relations ; there are probably others. And then I remember that Bay of Pigs was (cough cough) supported by the US, too.
Yes, the US kinda wished that Batista would fade away. But they were pretty clear that if the choice was Batista or a communist, they’d support Batista. Client-state elites have a long history of making these sorts of choices into cudgels to beat their patrons into supporting them: most recently we’ve seen Assad do that in Syria (giving Russia the choice of chaos, or supporting him).
As FDR once said: “He maybe a bastard, but he’s our bastard”. Batista was our bastard.
Anoniminous
Bernie Sanders told “60 Minutes” that it would be “unfair” to say “everything is bad” about Cuba’s Communist revolution. (Source NYT)
Which is an accurate statement. The Cuban Health Care System is according to Ban Ki-Moon Secretary General of the UN “a model for many countries.”
Is it an authoritarian government ? Yep. Just like the right wing authoritarian governments the US supported, e.g., Franco, and supports, e.g., Hernandez who, by the way, crushed several thousand demonstrators with nary a peep from the Republicans. US doesn’t give a flying fuck about Latin and South American authoritarian governments. Castro made the mistake of throwing out US corporations, otherwise he’d have been Our Man in Havana.
zhena gogolia
@The Pale Scot:
I can’t even watch the whole thing.
Cacti
@Anoniminous: Bernie was served up a softball to distance himself from his past schoolgirl crushes on Marxist authoritarian regimes. And he completely whiffed.
And that was when Clyburn stepped in.
Anoniminous
@Cacti:
Source?
Baud
@Cacti:
I don’t think Clyburn’s decision had anything to do with Bernie’s foreign affairs views.
Cacti
@Anoniminous: Bernie does his 60 minutes faceplant on February 25.
Clyburn announces Biden endorsement the following day.
Baud
@Cacti:
You actually think that timing represents cause and effect?
Cacti
@Baud: You think it was a coincidence that Clyburn made his endorsement the day after Bernie blew kisses at Fidel on 60 minutes?
Gin & Tonic
@Chetan Murthy: An interesting thing I learned while reading Serhii Plokhy’s Nuclear Folly about the Cuban Missile Crisis is that Fidel was not a Communist when he overthrew the Batista government. He was anti-Yanqui, and anti-colonialism, but the purported Marxism-Leninism was purely a matter of convenience, in order to get financial and logistical support from the Soviet Union.
Anoniminous
@Cacti:
That’s not a source.
I guess the fact Sanders is Jewish has NOTHING TO DO with your hatred toward him.
See how easy it is to smear someone?
The Pale Scot
@Eduardo:
Uh.. no. He’s millionaire masquerading as a socialist.
Since we’re on the topic, all you people are going to be moving back now to assist in creating a regime of peace and enlightenment right? It’s not like Miami is going to around much longer anyway
germy
November 10, 1938. “Fulgencio Batista, the Cuban Army Sergeant who has risen to the heights of Caribbean Dictator, arrived in Washington today. This is the first time the Cuban Dictator has set foot outside his native land in 37 years. Gen. Malin Craig, the Army Chief of Staff, is shown with him as they pass the Capitol in a Cadillac.”
https://www.shorpy.com/node/6638
Baud
By the way, googling on the topic of Bernie and Cuba shows that right-wing media has been pushing this story for the last couple of days. It explains the arguments of our new friend.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: He said “that was when Clyburn stepped in” not “that was why Clyburn stepped in.” Not inaccurate.
Baud
@Cacti: Yes. Completely. I’m sure that endorsement was in the works for a long time.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anoniminous: Whoa there. Let’s not.
Baud
@Gin & Tonic: Ok. I haven’t checked, but I’ll assuming the timing is accurate.
Steeplejack
@Gravenstone:
And apparently “Rodríguez” is the most common surname in Cuba, according to the Google.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Eduardo: Because Cuba is small potatoes next to the genocidal Communist of the CCP. Because like with Iran, the US pressuring Cuba is just going to unite the population behind the government and be futile because the rest of the world won’t go along. Because like the War on Drugs, the Cold War with Cuba hasn’t achieved jack shit in 60s and time to try something new. Because only a total retard wouldn’t get turning Cuba into a pariah state during a pandemic is a really, really great way to create skippy the super virus.
germy
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: I think Clyburn’s endorsement was timed to have maximum effect on the SC primary.
Betty Cracker
@Cameron: I don’t know enough about your situation to say, but I can tell you I’m not going anywhere.
Steeplejack
@Baud:
People can make dumbass arguments in good faith.
germy
@Steeplejack:
I do it all the time.
The Pale Scot
Spain got Franco, Cuba got Castro, two sides of an “illiberal” Catholic society coin. It’s taken 50 years for Spain to work thru their authoritarian tendencies, Cuba is going to have to do the same.
James E Powell
@Steeplejack:
And 9th most common here in the US of A!
Stuff like this makes me love my country.
Baud
@James E Powell: Garcia is sixth.
germy
Is this what Tucker was so nervous about? This examination of him in the Washington Post?
Cacti
@Baud: The endorsement may have been in the works for a long time. But it was rolled out within 24-hours of the then front runner going on prime time television, and still not being able to quit Fidel Castro.
The timing wasn’t a coincidence at all.
chopper
@Eduardo:
sure, jan
Steeplejack
@Baud:
Well, we’ve gone from “Hello, nym I’ve never seen before” to “I don’t want to play the ‘Hello, nym I’ve never seen before’ card, but . . .” Progress!
We can engage on the issue or not respond. Easy choice. But to suggest that someone lacks standing because they’re not “known” is bullshit—and a complete disincentive for a lurker to ever enter the conversation.
Eduardo
@J R in WV: Not a big commenter, but a huge lurker. Generally I don’t like to talk about things I don’t know. Also I am pretty liberal guy (not a leftist by any means). The reference to Marco Rubio was stupid, written in haste because I know he is right that what there is in Cuba is not merely authoritarian. It rubs me the wrong way the super milquetoast initial reaction from the State Department. It also bothered me Biden saying “authoritarian”. I didnt have to listen to Rubio or anyone else for that. Rubio is all the things Betty says he is, but he surely as hell knows what his constituents think and feel. Everything else I said I stand by.
I escaped Cuba in 1996. At the beginning I struggled with so many people not understanding the Cuban issue. Then I learned that people have many other things and priorities and that is fine. I saw my people in the streets and got emotional. Foolish.
Some have asked what I think about the US policy about Cuba. I have my ideas — I know lol. About that, about why the antipathy between the Cubans and the Dems (really long story), what should the Dems do to regain 5-10% of the Cuban vote in Florida, etc (Probably that is as best as they can do, the well is so poisoned particularly with the new generations). It would be a rather long post and I don’t think there is much appetite for that in this site. Yes, I am an idiot. Yes, I am less idiotic that the Democratic outreach to Cubans here.
If someone working with the Dems wants at least to hear other voices then hit me at my email and I will send them an email.
Have a good one everyone!
Baud
@Cacti:
It’s possible it was timed to the interview, in that they didn’t want the endorsement to be overshadowed by the interview in the media. I would need more evidence to believe that the endorsement was influenced by what Bernie said about Castro in the interview.
James E Powell
@Steeplejack:
For me the bad faith was revealed when “Democrats” turned out to be hearsay attributed to someone who is not a Democrat. If President Biden or Democratic congressional leaders had said something in support of the Cuban regime, it would be different, but they all say the opposite and Eduardo knows this.
Baud
@Steeplejack: Right. But when someone comes in and says Rubio is right and most Dems are wrong and that Dems support the Cuban regime, that costs them standing.
hueyplong
@James E Powell: Handy rule: When something is attributed to “Democrats” without naming names, it’s bullshit until proved to be otherwise.
Baud
@Eduardo:
YMMV, but to me “authoritarian” is a far greater condemnation than “socialist” or even “communist.” If Cuba or any other country chooses to elect socialist or communist government in a free and fair election, that’s their choice. But that’s not the situation in Cuba because it is authoritarian.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Gozer: li’l marco get into soup’s stash of milfporn?
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Baud: free elian!
Baud
@hueyplong:
That is a sound rule.
zhena gogolia
@germy:
I doubt it. It’s some kind of communication he’s had with russkie liudi.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@germy: proof, once again, the rhythm is gonna getcha.
Delk
You’d think a group of people so riled up about their land being taken away would be spending time in South Dakota.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I am also not convinced that saying authoritarian vs totalitarian invalidates a response. People seldom use the exact words in the exact order that I would prefer.
germy
@zhena gogolia:
I hope that information comes out next.
He’s a deeply damaged individual who’s doing damage to this country.
Steeplejack
@germy:
Your words, not mine!
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Right. But outrage based on wordsmithing is fairly commonplace on the internet across a range of subjects.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I didn’t say outrage, you vicious pervert!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So your’ objection is “improper word choice” ; Do tell us, what is the proper word to describe a form of government characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of a strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting (as Wiki puts it)?
Old School
Feb 23, 2020: Bernie Sanders’ 60 Minutes Interview
Feb 26, 2020: Clyburn endorses Biden
Feb 29, 2020: South Carolina Primary
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Take that back. I am not vicious.
Baud
@Old School: Thanks for fact checking.
Chetan Murthy
@Omnes Omnibus: Obligatory: https://youtu.be/6kAHBnwQv_s?t=14
NotMax
@Eduardo
“Comedy gold, Jerry.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Sorry, typo. I meant viscous.
Old School
@NotMax: Well, if Warren would have dropped out before Super Tuesday and Buttigieg and Klobuchar had stayed in, Bernie would have come much closer.
I’ve never been sure how much credit to give to Biden for that sequence of events.
germy
@Old School:
I think Warren wanted to stay in until she was certain Bloomberg was finished.
NotMax
@Old School
And if my grandmother had wheels she’d be a trolley car.
James E Powell
@Steeplejack:
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I firmly resolve to sin no more and avoid the near occasion of sin.
Omnes Omnibus
@Old School: If my grandma had wheels, she’d have been a wagon.
::shakes fist at NotMax::
Baud
@germy:
Ugh. I remember the dread of a possible two way race between Bloomberg and Bernie.
James E Powell
@Cacti:
So you think Clyburn’s endorsement was timed for Sanders on TV the previous weekend and not the primary three days later? Seriously?
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: There were still four Democrats in the race! As I kept shouting at the time.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
::amiably waves back::
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Still too close for comfort.
sdhays
@Old School: This whole topic is tedious, but I do want to say that the rush to clear the field and endorse Biden by the “centrist lane” Democrats was a stark contrast to the GQP in 2016. Pretty much only Scott Walker was willing to fall on his (very short) sword for the good of his party – everyone else stayed in far past the point where it was clear they had no chance for their own egotistical reasons. If the race had come down to just Dump and Jeb(!) earlier on, things might have turned out differently, even accounting for how pathetic Jeb is/was.
The centrist-lane Democrats were adamant that they weren’t going to be spoilers and let Sanders win with a small plurality the way Dump won his party’s nomination in 2016. They made it easy for voters who weren’t jazzed about Sanders to know where to put their vote.
James E Powell
@Baud:
Not just on the internet. Recall that Obama’s alleged failure to call Benghazi!!! a terrorist attack was a major part of Romney’s campaign.
People were still arguing about even after Obama was re-elected.
Old School
@germy:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Maybe Bernie wins, maybe he doesn’t. But Buttigieg and Sanders basically tied in Iowa and New Hampshire. Sanders won Nevada.
If Warren drops out and Buttigieg and Klobuchar take votes away from Biden, an argument can be made that Bernie comes away on Super Tuesday winning California, Colorado, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Texas, Utah, and Vermont.
It certainly makes the race much closer.
Biden couldn’t have scripted the campaigns ending and endorsing him better.
James E Powell
@sdhays:
I thought Warren was in the “socialist determined to steal Bernie’s voters and destroy America” lane. How did she get in the centrist lane?
@Old School:
That is a huge bundle of speculation. Bernie couldn’t match his 2016 levels of support. The only reason he did as well as he did then was because the press/media hate Hillary Clinton and many voters were just a tad reluctant to vote for a female.
sdhays
@James E Powell: I wasn’t including Warren. She stayed in through South Carolina, didn’t she?
Baud
@James E Powell:
True. I also remember “you didn’t build that” being taken out of context to become the theme of the GOP convention.
germy
Open thread?
I was surprised to see this new development:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mollie-tibbetts-judge-delays-sentencing-after-twists-iowa-woman-s-n1273954
I remember thinking at the time of the trial that this guy was guilty as hell, and his story about being kidnapped was an ugly lie. And now it turns out it may have been true.
James E Powell
@sdhays:
So which ‘centrists’ do you mean? Warren, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, Steyer, Gabbard, & Bloomberg all withdrew/suspended after South Carolina.
Baud
@James E Powell:
I thought Warren stayed in through Super Tuesday.
Baud
Who knows what would have happened in any of these alternative scenarios? I’m just happy that for we got the best possible timeline.
James E Powell
@Baud:
Yes, I should have been clearer. I was responding to what I understood the claim to be: that ‘centrists’ had cleared the field before South Carolina. I may have misunderstood as to timing, but I’m not sure who the centrists were.
Buttigieg & Klobuchar suspended/withdrew two days & one day before Super Tuesday, respectively. Warren & Bloomberg one day & two days after, respectively.
That’s usually the time that no longer viable candidates drop out.
debbie
Is Florida one of the states that does not prosecute anyone who runs over protesters?
Uncle Cosmo
@Baud:
He probably also thinks correlation implies causation. Because he’s a fucking imbecile.
Dan B
@Chetan Murthy: When Rubio leads the invasion to liberate Scandinavia (the country, of course) from the tyranny of Socialism(!) that represses noble fossil fuels corporations I will pop much popcorn, and perhaps some corks.
BTW I’m no fan of our local Seattle Democratic Socialists. Their sense of humor (/s) and openness to reasoned debate (/s × 2) have a whiff of the American socialists of my youth.
zhena gogolia
I’m reading the WaPo story on Carlson. Pretty interesting.
The Pale Scot
@Betty Cracker:
Marco Rubio is the beneficiary of millions of dollars in drug money that was never recovered from his convicted family member.
A 14yrd old Miami kid doesn’t know that large amounts of coke are moving in an out of the house he’s sleeping in. Yea, right
Chetan Murthy
@Dan B:
One of the great, great things about living in SF, is that the progressives here are often to my left. It’s nice not being the most liberal person I know. Damn nice.
Baud
@Dan B:
Honestly, if I were a dedicated American socialist, I’d be pissed at a lot of these countries for giving socialism a bad name.
But that may be why I’m not a dedicated socialist.
Geminid
@James E Powell: I think Clyburn timed his endorsement for maximum impact in South Carolina, and that Sanders’ 60 minutes interview did not influence Clyburn’ decision.
But what if it had? The interview highlighted Sanders’ decades of affinity with communist regimes, which was one his many areas of vulnerability that Republicans were eager to exploit. I was not sure which of the other candidates I wanted, but I was certain Sanders would lose, and cost us a majority in the House as well. Sanders’ foreign policy, such as it was, was one of several reasons he would have been crushed.
We had to win that election, and John Clyburn knew that even better than I did. If the 60 Minutes interview was a tipping point for Clyburn, how would that matter? Whatever the reasons behind it, Clyburn’s endorsement paved the way for the candidate who could win, and did win.
Baud
@The Pale Scot:
I hadn’t heard that story before. Marco is clearly not a Democrat.
Citizen Alan
@Eduardo:
It is possible to believe that the Cuban people have suffered horribly under the Castro regime AND ALSO believe that they won’t be any better off if the regime is overthrown and replaced by the sort of rightwing dictator the GOP would love to see running every nation on earth.
debbie
@Baud:
Are there even any truly socialist countries anymore?
Baud
@debbie:
I’m not sure what the criteria are anymore. People use that word to mean whatever they want it to mean.
Geminid
@debbie: There’s Caspiar. And maybe Esperanto.
NotMax
@debbie
Not since the imposition of socialist distancing.
;)
The Pale Scot
@Eduardo:
Could you elaborate on that. Is the government conducting a campaign of genocide against an indigenous population? Are they herding minorities into “work camps”? Are they murdering inmates and selling their organs the black market?
They’re not. They’re just doing the same shit that Fascist regimes all thru out South America that have been supported by the US government have been doing for the last century. If you were living in say Guatemala or Honduras, would you feel the same dissension about the government you would be living under?
Citizen Alan
@Baud:
That is because you are not a Republican and therefore think authoritarianism is bad. I’ve no doubt that Rubio et al would consider a free and democratically elected Communist government that actually delivered on the quality of life Communism pretends to offer while protecting the civil liberties of its people to be unimaginably worse than even the most oppressive authoritarian states which are also capitalist and pro-US.
CaseyL
@Dan B: They hawk the kind of historically illiterate, rhetoric-equals-actions, and sophomoric utopianism that is forgivable in actual sophomores. Not so much in adults campaigning for office.
James E Powell
@The Pale Scot:
The families of immigrants from Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and El Salvador do not determine outcomes in swing states. Thus, the lives of people in those nations are not a factor in American politics.
rikyrah
Uh huh
Uh huh ??
Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) tweeted at 1:13 PM on Wed, Jul 14, 2021:
There’s a key part of the Ashli Babbitt martyrdom story. The Trumpers pushing her story are convinced the officer who shot her is a black man. https://t.co/TidOvAN0YX via @TPM
(https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1415373793040736258?s=03)
NotMax
FYI.
rikyrah
????
Intel Point ALERTS (@IntelPointAlert) tweeted at 5:14 PM on Wed, Jul 14, 2021:
⚠️??#URGENT: Police detain man attempting large-scale attack at Los Angeles Federal Courthouse
#LosAngeles l #CA
The man was attempting to gain entry into the parking structure while wearing body armor and armed with several high capacity weapons.
https://t.co/UzYr9oCAsL
(https://twitter.com/IntelPointAlert/status/1415434455876050946?s=03)
Geminid
@Citizen Alan: If and when the Cuban regime falls- and I believe that now it’s a matter of when- I think the Cubans will end up with a functioning, stable democracy. But there will be a more clear cut and durable result if we do not intervene militarily, and provide the resistance moral and diplomatic support and not arms.
Republicans portray this uprising as an opportunity to topple the Cuban regime, and knock over the Venezuelan and Nicaraguan governments as well. But opportunism can be short sighted, and in this case I think it is.
And Joe Biden is using the right words. Marco Rubio can go pound sand.
burnspbesq
@Mike in NC:
Dad’s last name and Mom’s maiden name. Rodriguez is a sufficiently common family name that it’s not hard to imagine a marriage between two Rodriguezes.
The Pale Scot
@James E Powell:
I was curious about how Ed sees those regimes, is it ALL AUTHORITARIAN governments or just this one he has an issue with
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
The NFL
West of the Rockies
New thread? Please.
The Pale Scot
@Baud:
This really needs to be investigated further. OTTOMH Marco’s immediate family acquired real estate that they shouldn’t have been able to afford after his uncle was sentenced.
Kent
Yes, in Latin America you take the last names of both your parents so end up with four names rather than three. It is automatic. My daughter are all dual citizens of the US and Chile. On their Chilean birth certificates and passports they have both my and my wife’s last name listed automatically.
Kent
And the US military.
Baud
@NotMax:
Kudos to the Dems and, if the report is accurate, to Wicker.
This is the kind of thing that people who fetish bipartisanship should go gaga over.
Roger Moore
@Old School:
An important point is that “winning” a primary wasn’t especially valuable. The primaries were all proportional, not winner-take-all. Bernie wasn’t going to get to the convention with the majority of the delegates without winning over a lot of voters. He might have managed that by looking like a winner and getting other candidates to drop out and endorse him, but the actual events suggest the other candidates weren’t going to help him out that way. His plan always seems to be to hope the moderates split the vote so he could go to the convention as the plurality candidate and argue that gave him the moral claim to the nomination. When everyone else dropped out and left it just him and Biden, he didn’t have a chance. I think that would have been true in a one-on-one with just about any of the other candidates. He didn’t really have a plan to win over a majority of Democratic voters.
Elizabelle
DeSantis is rolling out merchandise: Don’t Fauci My Florida.
Yes. Another tribal signifier. During a pandemic, with a variant that is killing — pretty much — only the unvaccinated.
WaPost story.
DeSantis sells ‘Don’t Fauci My Florida’ merch as new coronavirus cases near highest in nation
The tee shirt is pretty funny. At first glance, it looks like either a gun or a big swinging d*ck. So, perfect for he whose state surgeon general is being sued by Norwegian Cruise Line.
Kent
@Roger Moore: Exactly. The entire Sandernista strategy was to win the nomination with 33% of the vote. They outright said as much many times. It was not a secret.
When it came down to a 2-person race much quicker than they expected they were doomed.
debbie
@Geminid:
You lost me. Must be the #$@! heat.
WhatsMyNym
@debbie:
Were there ever any socialist countries that met your criteria?
FelonyGovt
@Kent: In fact they grumbled about the others getting out and preventing him from “winning” that way.
debbie
@WhatsMyNym:
I have no criteria. I read Marx in college and that’s my knowledge base.
Roger Moore
@NotMax:
And bear in mind, this is a result of an investigation by the Republicans in the Senate. This isn’t some hit job by the Democrats.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@Baud:
[Shaking my head] Why can’t these people just fetishize Taylor Swift, like the rest of us. (photo)
Martin
Heh.
Moar plz!
Gin & Tonic
@rikyrah: He sounds economically anxious.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@debbie:
Speaking of Marx, everything I needed to know in life I learned watching “A Night at the Opera”
Dan B
@CaseyL: Rhetoric = bold action, and, Utopian visions “Will Happen” once the proletariat is united.
I knew Socialists who believed Stalin was a Saint. A group of us tried reading The Little Red Book. Review: Don’t!!
After watching Frontline’s report on the Fed I’m not sure that Capitalism isn’t remarkably similar in utopianism and warped rhetoric.
Geminid
@debbie: Sorry. I’m just making more bad jokes. I think Andy Kaufman once spoke of a country called “Caspiar.”
WhatsMyNym
@debbie: Most countries have blended economic systems.
Baud
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:
What I learned from studying Marx is that It Don’t Mean Nothing.
Cacti
@Uncle Cosmo: You talk tough, old boomer.
Dan B
@rikyrah: And if it were a black officer or, as may be the case from one article I saw at the time, a non-white officer, the GQP would judge all non-white people.
These white supremacists have nightmares about becoming a minority in America. My partner’s siblings seem to feel the same but don’t notice that only 15% of our neighborhood is white. We are uneasy when more white people buy houses, although the ones who have so far have honest to Dog “black friends”.
What primal fears is the right wing media feeding? It escapes us and we really don’t want to know, or at least we don’t want to listen to that media.
Geminid
@Dan B: In the 1960s, Bernie Sanders spent a few months at an Israeli kibbutz that was so left they kept a picture of Stalin in a place of honor.. This was less than two decades after the nation’s founding, and there were still several kinds of active socialist strains.
In winter 2019-20, when I was sweating out the prospect of a Sanders nomination, I studied him as best I could. I found that through open sources and interviews, some good researchers had unearthed a lot about Sanders’ early and middle adult life. Wow! I could just imagine Karl Rove licking his ugly chops. The Stalinist kibbutz was trivial, but much of the other material would have been devastating once the right wing attack machine revved up.
But, we dodged that bullet, and I try to lay off Sanders. I understand though, why women and immigrants, and Black Democrats like @SashaBeauloux and “Ragnarok Lobster, still harbor a lot of animus towards the man.
debbie
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:
” I would never belong to a group that would have me as a member.”
debbie
@Geminid:
You made me Google! ?
debbie
@WhatsMyNym:
Agreed. Tell that to the people using socialism as a weapon against their opponents.
Old School
@Roger Moore: I don’t disagree with any of that.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: you know what else rhymes with t-swizz?
Procopius
@Chetan Murthy: The State Department was fully behind Batista when he overthrew the elected government in 1933 and again in 1952. Mostly because United Fruit Company said he provided stability. They didn’t want anyone overthrowing him regardless of ideology. Neither did The Mob. The U.S. state department has always preferred dictatorships, especially bloody ones like Suharto or Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlevi. Stability.
Uncle Cosmo
@Cacti: Fuck off and die in a fire and raise the global mean IQ a notch, asshole.