This physician doing and AMA on reddit captures the pure essence of today’s Ivermectin/HCQ/bleach party, the Republicans:
Ventilator is ALWAYS optional. In fact a lot of physicians want older patients with multiple comorbidities to be DNR/DNI when they offer ventilation because it is seen as a futile waste of resource. Vents are fantastic for young patients with little comorbidities who have a good chance of making it out.
I typically lead the discussion on code status (wether you want CPR, vent, etc) on how futile it will likely be COVID patients and that it is more likely to cause suffering than any benefit.
Paradoxically, anti-vaxxers are adamant about being FULL CODE and having absolutely everything done.
After a week or two on the vent with no improvement, I push for a palliative care consult with the family. Most of them decline because “Rick is a fighter!” or “this is not God’s plan!”
I unfortunately am obligated to offer the option of a vent despite believing it should not be offered for a good 90% of the patients currently on it.
At least some of them show a bit of gratitude:
That poster and the sentiments on it are notable because they’re rare. Most of the COVIDidots’ who recover thank God, those whose loved ones die die blame doctors for not using Ivermectin and HCQ.
Baud
They’re really testing our commitment to universal health care.
Suzanne
@Baud: They’re testing my commitment to remaining United at all.
dmsilev
To update the old joke, God: “I sent you social-distancing instructions, masks, and several excellent vaccines….”
boatboy_srq
@Baud: They’re dying so Those Other People don’t get care.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Isn’t one of the corner stones of Anti-Vaccier is they are special. It‘s for the rest of us to take any risks and defend them with herd immunity.
Suzanne
@dmsilev: I have always been somewhat of an urbanist, and I really am not outdoorsy at all, but I am feeling increasingly like saying FUCK IT and living somewhere like rural Maine, off-grid, where I can be away from these people. It’s just so disheartening.
SiubhanDuinne
Someone on FB just pointed out that the vaccine deniers who take ivermectin are neigh-sayers.
Brantl
Whoever’s plan it is, they’re beating God’s out, plain and simple……
boatboy_srq
There was a recent discussion elsewhere, where horse paste self-medicators were discussing various side effects, including intermittent blindness. One wonders what other meds these people are taking that such severe reactions are somehow seen as normal.
germy
I like this horse:
dmsilev
@Suzanne: Given the partisan leanings of the anti-vax set, ruraltania is probably not where you want to go to avoid them…
randy khan
The poster warmed the cockles of my heart.
WereBear
@Suzanne: But is it an urban problem?
Trust me, rural is where they tend to lurk in their most intractable forms…
waspuppet
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Yeah this is not paradoxical at all.
dmsilev
Fuck around and find out, family law edition…
Mother refuses to get COVID shot, so judge strips her of visitation rights
Rugosa
anti-vaxxers are adamant about being FULL CODE and having absolutely everything done
Oh, so suddenly you believe in medical science? And maybe God’s plan was for Rick to die as a lesson for the rest of the Covidiots.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@boatboy_srq: It also causes you to literally shit your guts out — the lining of your guts, that is. People see long fleshy strings in their stool and think they have worms. Nope, that’s intestinal lining.
boatboy_srq
@dmsilev: It does make the walled city urban model seem less ridiculous…
Suzanne
@dmsilev: Do you have any better ideas? I’m just so over it.
Hell is other people, indeed.
boatboy_srq
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: Again, WTF is it that they were taking before this that makes these symptoms somehow normal?
germy
germy
Suzanne
@WereBear: My area is 70% Dem (according to the FTFNYT thing), and apparently my zip code is something like 75% vaccinated, but MAN the 27% make themselves known/seen.
dmsilev
@Suzanne: Move someplace where 90+% of the eligible population has demonstrated sanity?
It’s possible; my local urb is at 93 or so percent, and some of the surrounding towns are higher still.
JCJ
@SiubhanDuinne: Nice!
Maybe they produce road apples?
The Moar You Know
There is no paradox. They are selfish motherfuckers who only care about themselves and nobody else, otherwise they would have been vaccinated.
Despite what I was taught in clinical psych – not my field of interest but did have to take it for the degree – I’m really starting to believe that sociopathy is the default state for human beings.
Eunicecycle
@dmsilev: when my daughter worked in a hospital she said the most religious people almost always wanted to be full code. You couldn’t talk them into a DNR. But don’t they think they’re going to heaven? Maybe they have been so frightened by their religion, thinking they AREN’T going to heaven, that they need to stay here.
rikyrah
@dmsilev:
She wants to be unvaxxed….
then, she can see the kid virtually until he’s 12, when I hope that the father will get the kid vaccinated.
I honestly don’t have a problem with this judge’s decision.
Baud
@Suzanne:
New England is rural but highly vaccinated.
boatboy_srq
@dmsilev: there are some blue regions in rural ME. Stay closer to the coast, and look at the Kennebunks northeastward provsbly as far as Machias. You will hit bumps – Bucksport and Jonesport, for example, aren’t as friendly as Rockland or Belfast or Bangor – but generally you will find something comfortable with reduced MAGAt exposure.
Urza
@boatboy_srq:
Meth. They’re used to the symptoms of meth.
Yarrow
@Suzanne: OT, I assume you’ve seen this article, It’s from last year but I still found it interesting.
sab
@Suzanne: I complaimed about this in an earlier thread. Went to the grocery sort of early today. Not very crowded. Most everyome masked. I was wanting to check with the pharmacy but tjere was an unmasked mother with two ummasked pres-schoo.ers wandering arou d there so I left for the checkout line.
Me 67, masked first. Older guy, masked with a cane behind. Older guy with a mask behind him. Everyone six feet apart. Then the cheerful unmasked mom with two unmasked kids showed up at back of line, no social distance, and everyone in front started to crowd forward.
If I had been at the back of the line I would have said something ro make mom or the kids cry.
My husband says ” but little kids”. I say these rules have been in place since they could barely walk. A year and a half later they should be used to them. They keep their shoes on in the grocery. They keep their clothes on in the grocery. They should be masked, but otherwise she controls the cart and keep it back.
boatboy_srq
@Urza: That makes a frightening amount of sense.
Baud
@Eunicecycle:
Someone needs to brief Mississippi’s governor.
germy
The latest fad is radon?
smith
@Suzanne: How would it be better to move to a place where the Goobers are 95%+? There’s safety in numbers, and you will find many more kindred souls in the city. I was born and raised in WV, to liberal parents who moved there for work. Being the child of liberal parents in a deep red region is not something to lightly impose on your kids.
Baud
@germy:
Putting the cure in Curie.
Eunicecycle
@rikyrah: Another of my daughters (not the NP) has stepchildren that could be vaccinated; they are 13 and 16. But their mother won’t agree. She’s always so psycho about them being exposed to Covid because of OUR family (who are all vaccinated and cautious) but won’t let them be vaccinated. It’s frustrating for my daughter who has a son who is still too young.
NeenerNeener
@The Moar You Know: Oddly enough, I got vaccinated BECAUSE I’m a selfish mofo and I don’t want COVID. I don’t understand why these people don’t see it as self care, like showering and brushing your teeth.
West of the Rockies
@Suzanne:
It’s got to be ego, right? 27% just cannot, will not accept that they are wrong, stupid, cruel, and, yes, deplorable.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
It’s not a question of commitment to universal healthcare; it’s a question of rationing. We have finite resources, so we have to have some way of deciding how we allocate them. The problem is people behaving as if we have infinite resources so they can get whatever they want whenever they want them. A huge unstated argument in the whole private vs. public healthcare debate is that private healthcare avoids rationing. We all know that isn’t true, but it seems like it’s a common assumption among people who want to keep private care.
Eunicecycle
@Baud: you’re right; that does seem contradictory. But that’s not unusual with evangelicals. Like Trump is the great Christian and Biden is the devil.
Suzanne
@smith:
I’m trying to find a deep NOTHING region, away from other people, at this point. Quit my job, homeschool, make art, and most importantly, HIDE FRAM CRAZY PEOPLE. Maybe leave the country so I don’t have to repay my student loans.
ETA: I am incredibly pissed about the amount of taxes I paid that went to wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, not to mention tax cuts for rich people, and not to my own education or to kids in general. Ergh.
Nicole
I saw that poster on the Reddit HermanCainAward (whch MM has linked to before). That page is turning into an addiction for me. I need to stop. But the thank-you poster was a bright spot in the midst of stupidity.
A particularly dumb post was someone out there on the intertubes, a self-proclaimed “prayer warrior” who wanted to let people know they should not wait to ask for the prayers; that it would work better if they started prayers before the person ended up intubated. Because I guess God needs a little lead time?
I just don’t understand how some of these people made it into adulthood.
dmsilev
@germy: In a collision of events, they acquire the proportionate strength not of a spider but of a sheep treated with ivermectin.
Roger Moore
@The Moar You Know:
If they really cared about themselves, they would have been vaccinated. The real issue is that they care more about winning the argument than they do about protecting their lives.
WereBear
@Baud: then… Why are they so scared of everything?
Almost Retired
I guess I don’t sufficiently understand how insurance works. But why aren’t insurers pushing back on these Hail-Mary intubations? I mean, many of the cancer survivors I know had to fight to get the fuckers to pay for any treatment developed after the Kennedy Assassination. But, now are they saying “oh well. If Cletus wants his ventilator, so be it?”
Related to that, I met a friend for lunch yesterday in Santa Monica, which should be a Co-Vidiot safe space. No such luck – a relatively large anti-vax rally took over the esplanade. If you can’t avoid them in Santa Monica, where can you go?
sab
Suzanne.
OT. My sister works for a big pharma that does actual basic research, mostly cancer related but also some other stuff. She told me about ten years back that they were building a new building, and upper management was conferring with the architects.Nobody thought to include the actual scientists. The plans had offices close to the labs for convenience. The scientists were appalled. “The stuff we work with is dangerous. We don’t want it anywhere near our offices.” So they had to rethink everything
ETA Sis does computer support for scientists. Not much contact with management or marketing .
Suzanne
@Almost Retired:
This is an excellent question. Even though urban areas are bluer, more people in general means more crazy people in particular. It’s so depressing. All this work and sacrifice to pay for a society that I don’t get to use because of CRAZY PEOPLE.
West of the Rockies
@Baud:
Tate Reeves? What is that short for, Taters maybe? Taters Beauregard Reeves, whose great grandpappy fought with Bobby Lee.
dmsilev
@Almost Retired:
I heard about that. Why can’t the loons stay in Huntington Beach where they belong?
Eunicecycle
@Suzanne: that’s what I tell people every time they whine about taxpayers paying for abortions, which of course is forbidden by law. I hate paying for wars, executions, Rob Portman’s salary, etc but I don’t get to choose.
Baud
@WereBear:
My guess is that, deep down, they know god is a liberal.
Roger Moore
@Eunicecycle:
This makes total sense to me. You just have to understand that Evangelical Christianity is about being part of a social group, not about following what it says in the Bible. The Bible is only there to be mined for quotes justifying their existing beliefs, not as something to be read as a whole in order to understand what God wants.
boatboy_srq
@Almost Retired: Insurance won’t refuse to cover intubation. But as of a month ago (?) they’re refusing to cover COVID-related hospitalization 100%; if you’re in ICU for COVID, you’re paying your deductible and copays. That won’t stop anyone going in, but the number of bankrupted MAGAts will increase somewhat after a while.
Paul T
I am enjoying the Herman Cain Award Reddit way too much. This AMA was a part of that thread this morning, and the whole thing was so interesting.
But, try the whole thread (or just a few of the Award Winners and Nominees) to get the full flavor of the antivax/Covidhoax idiocy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/new/
rikyrah
@sab:
Clap clap clap clap
Almost Retired
@dmsilev: Exactly. We set aside a very pleasant play space for these people in Huntington Beach, and yet the insist on trespassing on ours.
Ksmiami
@dmsilev: Don’t know if she can move onto a Native American reservation though-
West of the Rockies
@Suzanne:
You want to avoid the crazies… I hear good things about Europa.
*Attempt no landing on Europa.
WereBear
@Suzanne: One of the worst is how, in volunteering or community projects or all those small town intersection points, there’s an exchange that makes you realize they are MAGATS.
And previous encounters seemed friendly because I’m white. And they think I’m one of THEM.
Yarrow
I know someone in a “mixed marriage’ – she got vaxxed, he’s a Trumper and antivaxxer. His company is requiring everyone to get vaccinated and she says that’s his out, his way to save face. He has to get vaccinated to keep his job. Not his fault, etc.
Vaccination requirements will work. We need more of them.
@Suzanne: We need to stop humoring them. It’s like dealing with children. Strong boundaries are necessary.
Urza
See, your first point of failure is imagining they do those self care things regularly.
Kay
@Baud:
I object to these people constantly depicting me as “scared”. Because they operate wholly in a fear/punishment frame does not mean I do. I was as calm as could be getting my shot at the CVS. I browsed the nail polish selection. I, unlike them, may be able to use nail polish because I’m not monitoring my oxygen levels. People who are frantically treating themselves with a livestock tincture want to tell me I’m obssessed with covid? I waited ten minutes for a free shot (twice) and haven’t given it a thought since then.
SiubhanDuinne
@NeenerNeener:
Do you have actual evidence that they do these things?
opiejeanne
@Brantl: Mother Nature is a bitch.
Roger Moore
@West of the Rockies:
It’s apparently Jonathon Tate Reeves. My guess is that Tate started out as a last name; a fair number of last names migrate to become middle names as a way of honoring the mother’s maiden name.
Kay
I love too how they made sort of a tentiative start at an argument that said “if we get the shot we don’t have to mask” and then realized none of them had any intention of getting the shot either.
What’s the pro-shot, anti-mask faction? Seven people, and all of them are on Twitter.
Kay
I love too how they made sort of a tentiative start at an argument that said “if we get the shot we don’t have to mask” and then realized none of them had any intention of getting the shot either.
What’s the pro-shot, anti-mask faction? Seven people, and all of them are on Twitter.
Urza
@dmsilev:
What about a law that outside protestors can’t come if they live more than 10 or so miles away? DC excluded for obvious reasons, maybe state capitals. Keep them out of the city council meetings, school board meetings, anywhere they don’t actually have skin in the game for that locality.
So far as I can tell most liberal protests are local. Most conservative protests have to bus in enough people to even make it look legit.
Ken
“Sometimes when you pray, God’s answer is ‘No.’ And sometimes it’s ‘Hell no, you utter jackass.'”
sab
@Kay: I fed my dogs ivermectin a couple of days ago to prevent heartworms. I will be furious if we can’t afford a refill to tide them over through winter to avoid retesting costs next Spring.
Suzanne
@Eunicecycle: I resent paying taxes and student loan repayment when I am in a higher tax bracket due to the education I took out the loans to get, and my tax dollars are not going to easing future students’ debt burden by funding education. I don’t resent loan repayment in principle, but the actuality of it is terrible.
Roger Moore
@Yarrow:
I think a huge amount of anti-vax sentiment right now is about refusing to admit a mistake. They don’t want to get vaccinated because it would mean they had been wrong about COVID all along. This is why people want to get vaccinated secretly or refuse to get vaccinated until they’re forced to. They’d literally rather risk death than lose face.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: I know the pro-mask, anti-shot faction too! He’s on Facebook.
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
Not his fault?
Oh please.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
I think there are a fair number of people who got vaccinated because they thought it would mean they could abandon all the other COVID precautions they had been taking who are now disappointed they can’t. I don’t know if they count as anti-mask, since they’re less likely to care if the people around them wear masks, but I certainly understand their disappointment.
Captain C
Are you sure? How do you know this? Can you prove it in a court of law? No? Back of the triage line for you.
Suzanne
As for the showering-and-teethbrushing thing…. I read a lot about rural healthcare (as you may imagine, given my job), and I have read about many rural dental clinics where the dentists say that it is immediately evident that many people are not brushing their teeth at all. Add to that sugary sodas, alcohol, chew tobacco and smoking, meth, etc etc etc. So do not assume that everyone does the basics regularly.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
IANAL but this seems really fucked up
Punchy
Who knew a JD came with an automatic MD?
Holy shit this is bad precedent. A judge can just order a hospital to deliver any medicine a spouse requests, safety and efficacy and common sense be dammed
ETA: Looks like Jim beat me to it by one post….
sab
@Suzanne: I grew up in a wealthy family. I got all the way through two graduate degrees with no student loans. My husband dug his way out of student loans pretty quickly because he is old and state schools were affordable. It was possible to pay as you went.
My brother the RWNJ thinks he is exceptional because he worked hard in school and got a job that paid a lot. Yes, but no student loans. He has no concept of the fact that he was born on third base
ETA He thinks his success is all merit based, and it is all basicaly circumstantial: being in the right place at the right time because of connections and being male.
Suzanne
@Roger Moore:
Exactly right. Admitting that they were wrong at this point is a humiliation, and an admission that they are too dumb for self-rule and that the elites know better and that book learnin’ does indeed have value. That’s a very painful worldview for many.
dmsilev
@Kay:
I don’t think too many people *like* wearing masks, but most of us tolerate it because, you know, we understand why it’s necessary.
Had a conversation (in person!) with a coworker about that this morning. She was resigned to mask-wearing continuing at least through the fall and maybe beyond (“flu season is coming”), but we were both like “if that means we can actually interact with the rest of the department in person rather than over Zoom, we’ll do it.”.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@dmsilev: oh battle royale men’s rights activism vs antivaxxxia
the gqp will be torn apart over this (gqp in disarray)
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@JCJ: that’s a philadelphia smorgasbord
Old School
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I mean, on one hand, the Ivermectin treatment for COVID is bad. On the other, I don’t know that I want the hospital overruling my doctor’s advice.
Not sure I think the ruling is 100% wrong.
Suzanne
@dmsilev:
You mean, because we’re big boys and girls? We understand that life means that we don’t get what we want all the time?
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Eunicecycle: biden is a papist
trump grew up in a protestant household
Roger Moore
@dmsilev:
Exactly this. I totally understand people who hate wearing masks, thought they were done with it once they were vaccinated, and now are pissed because they still have to wear them. I’m closer to disappointed than pissed, but I am angry about the people who won’t do either who are really driving the pandemic at this point.
sab
Sort of good news. Friend of my husband has been rather sick for about three weeks. Slight fever. Slight cough that went from nothing to severe. Food tastes weird so he stopped eating.
We thought it was worst breakthrough Covid we had heard of. Turns out it is whooping cough and he will survive after a few months of being very sick. Those lifetime vaccines don’t last forever. Only about thirty years. There is more out there than Covid.
Suzanne
@Roger Moore: I’m pissed that I still have to wear them. My county had about 320 positive cases for each of the last three days. We were in single digits per day six weeks or so ago. I am pissed AF that the anti-vax assholes fucked this up. Very pissed.
Punchy
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: Maybe not this comment at lunchtime? Kthx
germy
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reader-beware/
Certain doctors may not be anti-vaccine, but they need to be fact-checked as if they are.
mrmoshpotato
@dmsilev:
“Yeah, but you still let me be a stupid, selfish, murderous dumbass, so this is on you, God!”
Roger Moore
@Old School:
I think the hospital was right in this case. Reading the article, it sounds as if it wasn’t the guy’s normal physician, or anyone who worked at the hospital, who prescribed it. The wife went and found a doctor who writes a ton of ivermectin prescriptions and got him to write one. If I were in his regular doctor’s position, I’d refuse to give the treatment, too.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I would bet that the notice of appeal and request for a stay were filed within seconds.
burnspbesq
In my fantasy world, all the docs at that hospital in Ohio walk into court en masse and tell the judge, “fuck you, we’re not doing it. Find us in contempt, throw us in jail, and YOU can care for all those patients.”
artem1s
@Eunicecycle:
@Eunicecycle:
They believe in The Rapture for a reason. They are terrified of dying and will believe anything they are told that makes them believe they won’t have to go thru it. They are anti-science because of their fear of dying – nothing special about them at all – just another insignificant bit of star stuff.
debbie
@Old School:
It’s not FDA-approved. That should be sufficient for the hospital to refuse.
Delk
Reminds me of a Wolf Parade lyric:
Now we’ll say, “It’s in God’s hands”
But God doesn’t always have the best goddamn plans, does he?
lowtechcyclist
@Baud: I’d tell Tate Reeves that if he’s got a police detail, he should be releasing them to other duties. If he doesn’t need to be so scared of things, then what’s he need their protection for?
sab
@burnspbesq: They can’t do that. You are a lawyer.You should know that, and not be saying otherwise on social media. One good malpractice case and their careers are phucked and malpractice insurance is unaffordable.. And judge’s order puts them on the wrong side of medicine.
trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
The one thing I wish to avoid, is returning to an office and wearing one for eight hours. But there’s this collision of being safe and management insisting on butts in seats rather than continue to work remotely (obviously safer) and I do not yet know which viewpoint will carry the day.
Roger Moore
@debbie:
Technically, Ivermectin is FDA approved, just not for COVID. It’s perfectly legal to use an approved drug off-label. IMO, the better argument is that the other doctor is stepping on the treatment team’s toes. If the wife thinks this other doctor is so great, she should have her husband transferred to his care.
Soprano2
Yep, that’s absolutely right. At my workplace all it took for a few of them to decide to get vaccinated was the re-imposition of the mask mandate for the unvaccinated. Enough carrots, it’s time for the sticks.
Kay
@sab:
Not to muddy the water, but there’s apparently some medical-grade version of this stuff that is not an animal medicine – as I said I don’t fight with them anymore about covid because it’s too boring and they’re too far down the rabbit hole but I think we should acknowlege that.
If I understand this they’re taking the livestock medicine as a replacement for the other.
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
Yeah, I’m lucky. I can occasionally slip out of the lab and go back to my office, where I can take the mask off for a little while.
Yarrow
@rikyrah: When his big mean company forces him to get vaccinated, and he does so (because he will), him having the vaccination “won’t be his fault” – he will get to blame his company. It’s a way for him to save face.
We need more vaccine requirements because there are a lot of people like this guy who will get the vaccine if they can blame their doing so on someone else. Also, if they are more and more limited in the things they can do without a vaccine they will get them.
Suzanne
@Kay: My pediatrician friend said that she has prescribed human ivermectin for scabies.
Old Man Shadow
@Delk: Given the history of suffering and anti-Semitism directed at his Chosen People, I’d say that God’s plans pretty much suck.
Betsy
Punchy
@sab: What if ivermectin (or any other snake oil du jour) is ordered, and it kills the guy? Can the spouse turn right around and sue for malpractice?
Having a judge tell doctors what drug to prescribe, at what dose and for how long is an unbelievably bad precedent. Unless the order also completely and unilaterally prevents malpractice lawsuits from that person, you’re forcing a doctor to do something they know is harmful and dangerous.
Yarrow
@sab: There is an option for them to refuse to provide this treatment. From the article linked above:
Benw
@lowtechcyclist: speaking of police, that means that immunity for cops that kill out of fear for their lives doesn’t apply to Christian cops?
trollhattan
@sab: Lady I worked with had it run through their family and she was the only one to not catch it. Her husband was coughing four months before it finally ended. Ugh.
burnspbesq
@sab:
There are some aspects of human life that the judicial system is unsuited to handle, and should just stay the fuck out of. This is one. Lines have to be drawn. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to tell you.
Soprano2
Actually, I believe ivermectin is FDA-approved to treat some parasitic conditions in people.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay:
They make a surprising amount of noise there though! Just saw another one.
Kay
@Suzanne:
Interesting. We had a scabies outbreak here- they traced it to a drug treatment “house” (an absolute fire-trap dump that should be shut down) but it’s common in jails and prisons. They use pyrethrum to treat it- comes from chrysanthemums.
Kay
@Suzanne:
Interesting. We had a scabies outbreak here- they traced it to a drug treatment “house” (an absolute fire-trap dump that should be shut down) but it’s common in jails and prisons. They use pyrethrum to treat it- comes from chrysanthemums.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
FWIW, there isn’t really a difference between animal-grade and human-grade medicine, at least in terms of manufacturing. At least that’s what the FDA inspector said when the issue came up during my last inspection; they demand they be made to the same standard. There are some differences in terms of what they will approve, and the formulation of the medicine will obviously be different depending on who it’s being given to, but the medicines are made to the same standard.
Bluegirlfromwyo
@Soprano2: It’s approved as a topical treatment, not internal, and in much lower percentages than the livestock treatment. That’s my understanding anyway. I’m on a prescription ivermectin cream for adult acne. It’s a 1% solution and it only goes on my face.
Betsy
@Suzanne: I understand the way you feel. I feel that way sometimes too. But I think allowing the antisocial minority to transform our country into an even more antisocial place, is a mistake. I want to be inspired to double down on my efforts to make the kind of cities and towns and places that people support each other in. I want to strengthen our societal bonds and communal interdependence, not shake myself even more loose from it.
Not to mention, living in a rural location is *vastly* more detrimental for the planet, than living in even a modestly urbanized location. From gasoline dependency, to habitat destruction from rural sprawl, to failing septic tanks that impair entire aquifers and surface waters, to the incredible budget required to keep roads and utilities functioning to people who live out in the boonies by choice not necessity — rural America is a massive suck on both public resources and the planet’s natural systems that keep us alive.
The very best thing a progressive person can do, is choose a town or city to live in and commit to making it better. It’s better for the planet, it’s better for the economy, it’s better for socialization and community, it’s better for health, it’s better for conserving the public fisc — it’s better in every way.
Study what the Danish and Dutch are doing, and let’s do more of it here. Let’s work together on this!
Roger Moore
@Punchy:
This isn’t telling the doctors what to prescribe. It’s saying the treating physicians have to give the guy a prescription made by another doctor at his wife’s request. And I have a hard time imagining a jury hearing that set of facts and finding the doctors liable for malpractice.
Roger Moore
@Bluegirlfromwyo:
There is also an internal form of ivermectin for worm infections. That’s a lot less common in the US, so it’s a rare form of treatment, but it is approved.
Suzanne
@Betsy:
Last year, I would have agreed wholeheartedly. Now I’m really, really tired and pissed off. The mood may pass.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
Don’t you feel like it’s all just making a point? Why else would someone who isn’t paid to do it spend a couple of years reading mask studies? We just long ago left the area of “normal reactions” with any of this stuff. Do they do this with everything? They changed the recommendations for mammograms. Were people immediately reading the studies? “I OBJECT, Sir! In Fact, this Johns Hopkins study had a very small sample!” I wasn’t. Is there anything where they just say “I’m following directions”?
My initial approach to covid still seems like the best for me. I would follow directions to the best of my ability, while understanding that advice changes, because I don’t want to take a crash course.
lowtechcyclist
@Benw:
Hell, sounds to me like no Christian should be carrying a gun, police or no. If they don’t have to be so scared of things, what would they need a gun for?
arrieve
@Paul T: I spent way to much time on this Reddit after the last time it was linked here. I have some vaccine-skeptical acquaintances, and more than a few distantly-related Magats, but I had been spared many of the batshit crazy memes these idiots spread before catching COVID and dying.
When I read that Bill Gates and Dr. Fauci were roommates at Cornell, where Gates developed RFID technology, and that Fauci left to become the first CEO of Moderna, which was actually a George Soros rebrand of IG Farben, I had to stop reading for my own mental health. You have to admire how much insanity can be crammed into just one paragraph.
smith
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s not clear to me from the articles I’ve seen on this whether the prescribing doctor even has privileges at the hospital. Hospitals screen doctors they allow to practice there, and I assume there is an attending physician overseeing the patient’s care. Any coordination with a family doctor not on staff would go through that physician. If hospitals allowed any old doctor that they haven’t vetted to just step in and start directing care on site it could open up a real Wild West of potential malpractice and massive liability.
mrmoshpotato
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: Ahhhh!!!!! Ahhhh!!!!! Ahhhh!!!!!
Lemme take a breather. Ok, time for more screaming about that.
Ahhhh!!!!! Ahhhh!!!!! Ahhhh!!!!!
Gozer
@Roger Moore: This is my stepsister. She’s the crunchy/vegan/hippie subtype of anti-vaxxer. She’s also unbelievably selfish and so she *did* get vaccinated eventually (a couple of weeks ago…in FL!), but also doesn’t want anyone to actually *know* she got vaccinated.
She still believes all the same nonsense but doesn’t want to be called a hypocrite…
Not unlike certain anti-choicers.
Scout211
Off topic, but open thread, so:
My husband and I both got notices from ballottrax this morning. Our ballots were received and counted. 2 more HELL NO! votes on the recall are now official. :)
Mousebumples
Pharmacist note –
Ivermectin is FDA Approved for human use for:
The thing is, hard to get a real MD to prescribe this, so the animal supply stuff is what they can easily access. *sigh
Kay
This is their best argument and I like it because it really does go to the broader question as far as PUBLIC schools. They have a legal duty to serve all populations in a given area. That can’t exist along with a radical Right notion that each student has a veto over protections for some students. Public schools can’t function as public schools if the radical Right prevails on this. The whole concept contradicts their mission and it’s not just a “mission”. Federal laws on students with disability are civil rights laws. They are SQUARELY in the civil rights set. They handed us a really good argument.
Punchy
@Roger Moore: This doctor is just a script-writer. He’s neither seen the patient as-is, nor ever seen him in a clinical setting. He’s basically selling sheets of paper to get notoriety, and the hospital docs know this.
And “jury wont find him guilty” means he/she has already been sued, forced to hire a lawyer, had his/her rep sullied, etc. A not-guilty verdict is nice but the profound damage is already done.
Roger Moore
@Mousebumples:
I would guess the human supply is also pretty limited, especially for the oral dosage, so even if they can get an actual prescription they might have trouble getting it filled. It’s going to suck for people who actually need oral ivermectin, since it’s probably all been taken by the idiots who think it will prevent COVID.
Subsole
@Roger Moore:
This. This right here.
They cannot bear to admit people they despise are right about something.
@Yarrow: This. It is astounding how many Conservatives want to be martyrs while skipping the martyrdom.
Barbara
@Suzanne: It’s a huge problem, that there is a very significant proportion of people who really think that the social contract cuts only in the direction of benefiting them, and requires them to do nothing to protect others.
catclub
@Scout211:
is there any count on how many have been received? And what is the final date for getting them in?
Kay
Just an ordinary day on the Right. It shouldn’t surprise us that the gun nuttery extended to shooting threats when they were under pressure. That was inevitable. What’s the point of having 37 guns if you can’t threaten and intimidate people with them? It’s not performative if they’re in a gun safe.
Roger Moore
@Subsole:
Actual martyrdom sucks. I can totally understand why people would want to skip straight to the part where they get to complain about being mistreated without the actual getting mistreated step. The really astounding thing is that so many people let them get away with it.
Captain C
@Subsole:
I made someone else die for my faith. That counts, right? Even if they were unwilling?
Yarrow
@Barbara: Honestly, I think we should be talking more about responsibilities to counter people who talk constantly about their rights. We don’t do it very much. Arnold Schwarzenegger had a bit of rant about it that made some news a few weeks ago: “Screw your freedom. Because with freedom comes obligations and responsibilities.”
We are way overly balanced in how much we talk about rights and freedoms versus how we talk about responsibilities.
Baud
@Kay:
Even under a generous reading of the First Amendment, that seems to cross the line into a criminally actionable threat.
Kay
Good for Kevin Drum. This almost makes me forgive him for getting bamboozled on “the IRS is suppressing Tea Party speech” bullshit that was wholly invented.
mrmoshpotato
@Roger Moore:
Suicide by virus – the ultimate owning the libs!
JaneE
I have had a DNR on file, and just updated it to the latest version of the form my health plan uses just a few months ago. My husband knows my wishes, and I his. His daughter knows as well, but if they contact her chances are they have already done more than I would allow if I were conscious. I am perhaps unusual in that I do not want any of the “ordinary” measures used. That said, I am not so ready to die that I skipped the vaccine.
Kay
@Baud:
And it’s recorded.
I think their propensity for recording all their actions is connected to their belief that they are special, the “real” Americans who can run roughshod over everyone else, and will never be held accountable.
They should have been checked a long time ago. My favorite covid school story is where the principal of an expensive private school essentially told the Trumpy, screeching parents to fuck off and go somewhere else :)
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Lawyers here have any observation on how this works when a judge orders something that doctors consider dangerous to the patient
EDIT: I see Roger Moore is on it.
mrmoshpotato
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
@Punchy: I want to know who married the two of them!
“I now pronounce you horse and wife.”
Kent
We moved to Waco TX when the kids were very little for my wife’s medical residency, which is kind of luck of the draw due to the residency match.
It was pretty much fine until they reached about middle school age and then lots of their friends started drifting away because we didn’t go to the right churches. You do find other like-minded parents and people. But you are always in the minority, which gets old. Our kids were glad to move back to the Pacific Northwest where they found more of their own kind and were no longer the weird ones.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
The recording and broadcasting is part of the threat. It’s the same way that lynchings were public events: the intimidation factor is that much higher when it’s obvious the authorities have no intention of stepping in. Obviously we need to make sure the authorities do step in to counter that part of the threat.
Scout211
@catclub:
This article in the LA Times has some of that information:
https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2021-08-27/california-politics-who-are-gavin-newsom-recall-election-early-voters-ca-politics
From the Secretary of State:
The Moar You Know
@Kay: The radical right is well aware of this and at least where I live, funding the “anti-masks in schools” movement with a vengeance. And 27% will never be a majority, but it’s damn sure enough to stop a school board meeting if the other 73% don’t show up. Which they don’t.
Suzanne
@Kent: I grew up in Mesa, AZ, the second-largest LDS community in the world. I know it sucks being the godless liberal minority.
I’m looking for something different: NO ONE. Non-asshole liberals are okay on the margins. But I’m tired of people.
debbie
@Baud:
This is what they did to Ohio’s Director of Health, Amy Acton. Parked themselves out on her lawn, carrying AR-15s and harassing the entire neighborhood. When asked, the town’s Chief of Police would only mumble about protecting Second Amendment rights. It got her to quit, so they must have succeeded. ?
JCNZ
The first two comments in this thread – genius!
Capri
@Mousebumples: The main issue with taking ivermectin labeled for horses and cattle is the concentration. You have to make it hella concentrated to make it convenient to treat a #1400 horse. It’s really hard to get an appropriate human dose out of that. A standard tube of ivermectin treats a #1400 horse. If you’re a tenth that size, you’d have to ingest a tenth that much. But it’s a paste so not easy to divide up. Think of trying to squeeze out 1/10 of a toothpaste tube out and getting it right.
Barbara
@Roger Moore: This was my view. Normally, a hospital requires any treating physician to be a member of its staff. If another physician proposes radically different treatment then you find an alternative hospital where the other physician has privileges. Which might be hard to do, but that’s the normal practice.
dlwchico
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/medical-officials-worry-about-unvaccinated-superspreader-communities-in-butte-county/ar-AANR8bR?
“The lowest vaccination rate in the county is in the Town of Paradise: 18.4% fully vaccinated.”
This is the same Town of Paradise that burnt down in the Camp Fire recently.
sab
@The Moar You Know: My school board solves this by still zooming. I don’t know if they will ever come back to meatspace.
Kent
Well, it’s not that problematic. If you have a 25 gm. tube and you want 1/10th of it, you just use a digital kitchen scale and squeeze out 2.5 grams of it.
The problematic part of using Ivermectin is that it is quackery, not that a sensible person can’t get the dosage right with a minimal amount of effort.
sab
@Kay: They don’t like the liver flavor it comes in.
lafcolleen
@dmsilev:
Looked up case snd it is slightly more complicated than news reports say BUT Judge Shapiro vacated that portion of his order today.
VFX Lurker
I signed up for PoliticalData’s election tracker like a normal person. ? Saturday morning they reported 3.5 million vote-by-mail ballots returned, 16% turnout so far, with 2.5 weeks to go.
I am one of those 3.5 million ballots returned, and I voted NO.
Eleven days of in-person voting starts in Los Angeles County on September 4th. Election Day is September 14th; absentee ballots postmarked on that day but received up to seven days later will be counted.
Betsy
@Suzanne: Oh. I hear that. Saying this has been a tough year doesn’t begin to describe it.
No question people are at their breaking point.
Even good people may be hard to take right now.
J R in WV
@Old School:
The ivermectin advice is from a quack on the Internet, not the dying MAGAT’s actual doctor. When you are in ICU on a vent you have several doctors, specialists in caring for ICU patients on a ventilator. Pulmonologists, nephrologists, cardiologists, PhD pharmacists, infectious disease specialists — there was a flock of them twice a day conferring over her test results and charts.
Those are the doctors the “Judge” is overruling — and they know better than to give a toxic un-approved drug to a dying patient. The Judge is guilty of malpractice and of practicing medicine without a license.
Trust me, I was there for Wife’s nearly a month on a vent in MICU… also for her next 6 weeks getting put back together. In a teaching hospital that wasn’t overwhelmed at the time. Lots of experienced doctors who specialize in ICU care.
J R in WV
@Kay:
Looks like Mr Lefkowitz has made a death threat, well, several of them actually, once for every city council member, and could have all his guns confiscated while he awaits trial.
Why won’t the cops take these guys seriously? People are pleading guilty for planning to kidnap and murder the governor of Michigan, to hand VP Pence, etc. I take them at their word, they are willing to go home, get a gun, and commit murder over the mask rules! Believe them, arrest them. That easy.
When did making death threats become like a parking violation? That’ll be $5 Mr. Lefkowitz!
Gravenstone
Saw a new (and depressing) one from the fever swamps of anti-vax today. Did you know that the Covid vaccines contain … HIV?!?! Yeah, me neither. Even better when the poster/ranter doubled down on the pushback she was getting and demanded – sources! I suggested that she go first, and asked specifically for peer reviewed articles. Then pointed out they would not be forthcoming, as she was clearly talking out her ass.
I really hate these morons.
Captain C
@Roger Moore:
Or even more intimidating still when the sheriff brings the beer for the after-lynching party.
J R in WV
@Kay:
Actually, I’m a little astonished that everyone appears to have completely forgotten the historic Berlin Airlift from back when the Soviets closed all roads from West Germany thru East Germany to Berlin.
The Soviets intended to force the West to surrender Berlin to the Soviet Bloc by starving the city, just as in a Medieval siege of a walled city fortress. The western bloc response was to begin the world’s largest airlift to supply Berlin with food and fuel.
I think that effort dwarfs today’s airlift.
Gravenstone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Someone must want the insurance money. Because insisting on ivermectin in a patient dealing with other issues (ongoing infection) seems like an invitation to meet Mr. G. Reaper.
Roger Moore
@Gravenstone:
If she really wanted the money, she could just tell the doctors here husband didn’t want to live that way and have them remove the ventilator. No, this is someone who very much wants her husband to live and is willing to listen to any quack who will promise her to help.
There go two miscreants
First it was The Number Ones, now this!!
The Lodger
@West of the Rockies: … they call me Tater Salad…
The Lodger
@Gravenstone: Hey, you’re back!
sab
@germy: I used to think neurologists were brighter than the average bear, but not any longer. There are so many of them that are quite publicly anti-vax.
tybee
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: <
I’m pretty sure that’s what happened to me the last time I was eating Jalopeno peppers chased with many shots of tequila.