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The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

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I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Consistently wrong since 2002

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T R E 4 5 O N

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You are here: Home / Open Threads / DeSantis: WTF does he care about the “economy”? (Open Thread)

DeSantis: WTF does he care about the “economy”? (Open Thread)

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So. Jim Crow, hunh? There they were, sacrificing Black bodies to boost up an oligarchy, just as they did during Slavery. Laws so toxic that The Nazis reused them.

And now: DeSantis and Abbott and Stitt in Oklahoma and so many others play that same “game,” just updated for the modern era.

That update? Now-openly abuses Women, it openly abuses Trans people, it attacks the rest of the LBGTQIA+ folx. At best, it ignores the Poor, the Chronically Ill and so many more. Even “own the libs” is deployed for this effort — to gain, for a few, such power that the waves of economic pain can never touch them and theirs.

“Why should I care about the economy”, the Deep South GOPers say, “if they can never vote me out of office? If they can never stop the flow of funds to my cronies?” A tune that now finds ugly echoes in the debt ceiling fight.

For the record shows these asshole’s ancestors as Not Being About Shit:

By the 1850s, a growing group of incredibly wealthy men, born into slaveholding families of great privilege, were brazenly identifying themselves as aristocrats or oligarchs — they simply did not believe in the benefits of “pure democracy.” As the National Era reported, these Southerners deemed popular suffrage the “root of all the mischief” regarding the preservation of slavery.

The fire-eaters of the slave South, therefore, envisioned something more than just a slave-ridden version of the United States. They actually advocated a return to hereditary privilege, caste systems, and rule by the wealthy few. Some even argued in favor of primogeniture. All hoped that these measures would help curb the “scourge of democracy.”

And it played out again during Jim Crow. From what I can tell, White Supremacists literally sacrificed a growing economy to make a few wealthy over the literal bones of Black folx and Poor Whites.

I’m summarizing a LOT of history and analysis, so I’m certain you can poke holes. And yet, the core fact remains that it’s a tiny number of people who “win” when schools are terrorized into pulling books, and state officials gaslight the reasons.

It’s not the Parents brainwashed into supporting this. It’s not even the Alt-Right forces who shoot up the place if you don’t.

It’s the assholes who George Wallace they way into power. Who cannot thrive unless standing on a mountain of pain and suffering. The same playbook, of American Pain.

We must dismantle it.

Open Thread.

Reader Interactions

156Comments

  1. 1.

    MisterDancer

    I’m in and out, so if you ask me a question, challenge me, or yell at me, it might be a mite before I see it.

  2. 2.

    Citizen Alan

    If and when I get a job that takes me away from Mississippi, it is entirely possible that my sister and I will never speak again (right now, we live in the same town and literally the only time she reaches out to me is if she has some question about our mother’s estate). But if we do speak, and she goes off again on her love for Trump and now Desantis, I will probably lose it and call her a bigoted white supremacist to her face. The woman is a 61yo retired elementary teacher with two adult children who are just starting out as elementary school teachers. And she is perfectly fine with the GQP’s assault on education. I am literally waiting for the day that my nephew gives the wrong kid a detention or a failing grade and some lunatic parent accuses him of being a groomer.

  3. 3.

    Suzanne

    I have some relatives in Florida, who have invited me multiple times to come visit. (They’re very much of like mind to me, politically.) I am tempted to visit, but I literally am scared to think about bringing Spawn the Elder into the state. I am very good at catastrophizing, so I can think up every unlikely-and-yet-terrible scenario, even for a few-days-long visit to the beach or Disney World.

  5. 5.

    Martin

    @schrodingers_cat: Burning shit usually works. The suffragettes started with protests and such, but after a while of being ignored they just started smashing windows. They didn’t make any bones about it either – they said ‘we’re going to smash windows until you let us vote’.

    It worked.

  7. 7.

    Jim Bales

    This is seems to be how rural areas works. The “elites” hold the power and the next generation mostly moves on to greener pastures while a few stay to become the next generation of elites

    At least that is how the area in rural NC (where I went to HS) works

    Best

    Jim

  12. 12.

    Bill Arnold

    Liked that https://bittersoutherner.com piece, but am trying to find a primary source for “the scourge of democracy”, where democracy itself is the scourge, not some other X that is a scourge of democracy. The later is dominating search results.

  13. 13.

    MisterDancer

    @schrodingers_cat: With respect to Martin, I’m gonna quote another fella with the same name on this. From a speech of Dr. King’s, a few months before he passed:

    Non-violent protest must now mature to a new level to correspond to heightened black impatience and stiffened white resistance. The higher level is mass civil disobedience. It is a concept well known in our struggle for justice.

    There must be more than a statement to the larger society—there must be a force that interrupts its functioning at some key point. That interruption must, however, not be clandestine or surreptitious. It must be open. It is not necessary to invest it with guerrilla romanticism. It must be open and conducted by large masses without violence.

    If the jails are filled to stop us, the meaning will become even clearer. The Negro will be saying, I am not avoiding penalties for breaking the law, I am willing to endure all your punishment because your society will not be able to endure the stigma of violently and publicly oppressing its minorities to preserve injustices.

    Mass civil disobedience as a new stage of struggle can transmute the deep anger of the ghetto into a creative force. To dislocate the functioning of a city without destroying it can be more effective than a riot because it can be both longer lasting and more costly to the larger society, but not wantonly destructive. It is a device of social action that is more difficult for the government to quell by superior force. [Line breaks and 2nd emphasis mine-MD]

    Or go read Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals.

    And understand what you’re asking people to do, is put lives and health and jobs and safety on the line around fighting these issues. There is a reason the DeSantises of the world exploit the desire to do violence without retribution, providing “approved” targets for these attacks.

    NOTE: I’m providing an answer, not as an opener to debate, but to ensure the question is approached. I’m being somewhat glib because the process of resolving these issues is one of many books and bringing in experts, not of discussion-group debate on this or any blog.

  15. 15.

    Sure Lurkalot

    College Board caves:

    https://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2023/02/desantis-can-do-long-march-through.html

    After heavy criticism from Gov. Ron DeSantis, the College Board released on Wednesday an official curriculum for its new Advanced Placement course in African American Studies — stripped of much of the subject matter that had angered the governor and other conservatives.

    The College Board purged the names of many Black writers and scholars associated with critical race theory, the queer experience and Black feminism. It ushered out some politically fraught topics, like Black Lives Matter, from the formal curriculum.

    And it added something new: “Black conservatism” is now offered as an idea for a research project.

    This too is all about the Benjamins.

  19. 19.

    MisterDancer

    @Bill Arnold: The writer is likely quoting herself. From her work Masterless Men:

    The famous writer George Fitzhugh actually argued for hereditary aristocracy, entail, and primogeniture, hoping these measures would help curb the scourge of democracy.

    No footnote on this reference, but there are on the rest of her references/quotes around this topic with a footnote at the end. I’d certainly recommend the work if you want more on this situation, as it’s a tough-to-untangle ibid chain:

    South Carolina planter David Gavin “bitterly resented the fact that lower-class whites had the right to vote,” calling universal white male suffrage “the most pernicious humbug of this humbug age.” Even female planters like Keziah Brevard, who did not have the right to vote herself, prayed that “some thing be done to check this mobocracy. … Democracy has brought the South I fear into a sad, sad state.” The fire-eaters of the slave South envisioned something more than just a slave-ridden country modeled on the principles of the United States. They wanted a return to hereditary privilege, caste systems, and rule by the wealthy few. Indeed, James De Bow obstinately declared that property alone was “the basis of sound representation,” since the poor’s right to vote so often “degenerates into licentiousness.”

  22. 22.

    Jeffro

    @sanjeevs: I saw that and my head nearly exploded.

    I’ll be posting, tweeting, emailing, etc all day long tomorrow about it.   Early bed tonight though.

  24. 24.

    Bill Arnold

    @MisterDancer:
    Thanks.

    the poor’s right to vote so often “degenerates into licentiousness.”

    WTF does that mean? Is it a way of saying that the poors might vote against the interests of the rich?

  25. 25.

    gene108

    @Martin:

    The prominent suffragettes were more upper class white women.

    The powers that be tend have a different reaction to minorities smashing shit versus white women smashing shit.

  27. 27.

    Bill Arnold

    @Jeffro:

    I saw that and my head nearly exploded.

    There are three authors listed ( Stephanie Saul, Patricia Mazzei and Trip Gabriel ). Two have twitter accounts, but neither linked the piece.

  28. 28.

    Jeffro

    Somewhat (ok, a lot) related to DeSantis: Jim Gerhaughty of the Post has a piece up begging Sununu not to run, as there is already…ready for this?…an alternative to trumpov.  DeSantis.

    Like, what??  In what universe is DeSantis some great contrast to trump, or an anti-trump?

    And how is DeSantis a better anti-trump alternative than Sununu?  At least Sununu has a prayer of pulling in some blessed “independents” and (extremely) low-info Dems.

    It’s just a cynical, lazy calculation: the DeSantis mojo train is already starting down the track, so let’s get everyone else out of the race and have it be Don vs Ron, with Don (supposedly) losing.

    The GOP still has the same collective action problem that they had in 2016 and 2020, and it’s for the same reason: ZERO principles, other than winning the war against the libs.

  30. 30.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

     Even “own the libs” is deployed for this effort — to gain, for a few, such power that the waves of economic pain can never touch them and theirs.

    “Why should I care about the economy”, the Deep South GOPers say, “if they can never vote me out of office? If they can never stop the flow of funds to my cronies?” A tune that now finds ugly echoes in the debt ceiling fight.

    Wouldn’t it still affect them? A federal default would hurt everybody, including them. Pretty sure they have various personal investments at risk too

  32. 32.

    Jeffro

    @Sure Lurkalot: utterly appalling.

    No kid is required to take this course.  How can they justify this?  Why should other (blue) states put up with this crap?*

    *I hope they start their own consortium and replace AP with it.

  33. 33.

    Betty Cracker

    It appears to be a multi-racial Christo-fascist movement here in FL. DeSantis got something like 65% of whites, nearly 60% of Latinos and almost 15% of black votes.

  35. 35.

    Mike in NC

    Writing in USA Today, right-wing pundit Ingrid Jacques adores would-be dictator DeSantis, not to mention Chris Rufo and every other troglodyte that he’s surrounded himself with. Just a replay of Fat Bastard and his neo-Nazi advisors in 2016.

  36. 36.

    Martin

    @Jim Bales: Farm towns are fiefdoms. The local guy gets some power and decides they’d rather be king of a small town than a citizen of a medium sized town, so they actively sabotage the economic interest of the town to keep it to the size they can retain power over. Mostly, the only economic benefits they permit are the ones they personally might benefit from.

    I get the sympathy for small towns but they so often fit quite neatly into the ‘I’d rather rule in hell than serve in heaven’ when you step back and look at their decision process.

    There aren’t many guaranteed investments in this world, but education is one of them. Not always at the personal level (advanced BA degrees are a real crap-shoot, but BA/BS is pretty guaranteed) but at the societal level there’s no better investment you can make.

  37. 37.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Betty Cracker:

    nearly 60% of Latinos and almost 15% of black votes.

    They’re useful idiots who will be thrown under the bus at the earliest possible convenience

  38. 38.

    Cameron

    @Betty Cracker: I just can’t get a handle on it.  This is a state with great natural beauty, fascinating history, tons of cultural sites and events, and politically it winds up with this sociopath’s paradise in Tallahassee.

  39. 39.

    Geminid

    @Jeffro: Republican elites have really latched on to DeSantis as an alternative to Trump. The prospect of Trump winning the nomination and dragging down the other Republican candidates scares the hell out them, and it ought to.

  40. 40.

    Martin

    @Baud: White demographic is hemorrhaging on religion. Young white kids are abandoning christianity at an alarming rate. That alone is enough to pull them out of the GOP voter base.

    Betty labeled it exactly right – christian is the underlying draw. Also worth noting that Floridas latino community is pretty unique in the US. You won’t see that repeated anywhere else, at least not yet.

  42. 42.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Geminid:

    I’ve seen commenters compare him to Scott Walker; that once he makes it to the national stage, he’ll face plant

  43. 43.

    gene108

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    Can the College Board get blowback for this and be forced to reverse course?

    CA going to demand the removed content be reinstated or else they’ll ban it from CA schools? That’s the only form of pushback that could get the College Board to change.

    So far more liberal-ish governors and states have never gone all in on fighting about textbooks or this AP class they way conservatives do.

    Unfortunately for the liberal-ish governors their likely voters aren’t going to be as interested on one change in a proposed AP class versus how much conservative voters focus on this shit. The entire conservative agenda is built on culture war outrage. Their voters live and breathe this stuff all the time.

    Liberal voters worries aren’t so focused on the culture war issue of the day. Liberal voters concerns are spread out over things like environmental protection, fair wages, investment in poorer communities, addressing the housing shortage, etc.

  45. 45.

    brendancalling

    @sanjeevs: when it comes to dismantling the racist (and anti woman and anti LGBTQ and anti-working people and anti-democracy) GOP playbook, the New York Times should be included in the dismantling. It is a garbage paper that occasionally publishes something useful. Occasionally.

  46. 46.

    prostratedragon

    @MisterDancer: ​ I recall that these facts were among the matters anomalously mentioned in passing as guides to the perplexed in my elementary school history classes. And when I do I also recall that there was a certain teacher who, when he arrived, was referred to under breath as “here to keep an eye on us.” It was the post-Joe McCarthy era.

  47. 47.

    Martin

    @Geminid: Sorta. I think they’re just as concerned about DeSantis but don’t know how to thread the needle on appeasing the lunatic voters while avoiding speaking the truth that the GOP grew their voter base by adding lunatics and are now captive to them.

    Consider that the GOP elites are again starting to ramp up the ‘we need to ban abortion to win’ talking point, which is absolutely insane, just as a metric as to their overall sensibility.

  48. 48.

    Baud

    @gene108:

    I agree. Liberals mostly want to live their lives, and aren’t as dedicated to fighting the cult as the right is in promoting their cult.

  50. 50.

    Almost Retired

    @Betty Cracker:  sharp intake of breath at those Latino and Black numbers voting for DeSantis.  I guess I sort of expected that the Latino vote in Florida is unique and would be different than California.  But the Black vote?  Huh!?  Is it Haitian voters looking for stability but misidentifying which party can secure it?

  51. 51.

    ColoradoGuy

    If I remember my college-level history right, at the founding of the country, the Southerners wanted to re-create the Roman Empire, slaves, plantations, oligarchy, a repressed artisan class, and a Senate elected by a wealthy, land-holding minority. The architecture of Washington DC reflects this … the triumphant resemblance to Rome is not accidental.

    The New Englanders were more interested in the Greek model … a city-state, a trading empire, and a platform for spreading Greek culture. Slavery was there, but the central purpose was spreading the Greek way of life, not the creation of a new landed aristocracy. With the victory of the Union Army, the Greek model eventually prevailed.

    Hitler saw the success of the American model, particularly the South, and tried to import it to Europe, with the Russians and Eastern Europeans standing in for Native Americans, a people to be exterminated and enslaved.

    What DeSatan is doing is merely a reversion to type … oligarchy, slavery, and the narrowest possible franchise. Education has to submit to mass indoctrination, which is just fine with racists, fundamentalists, and oligarchs (see Russia for working examples).

  54. 54.

    Almost Retired

    @Baud:  That’s very true.  Democratic turnout cratered in Florida.  Which is why I get irritated with people who say Florida is irredeemable so just move.  We are suppressing our own vote.

  55. 55.

    Ruckus

    @Bill Arnold:

    Bill, yes that’s exactly what that means.

    The word licentiousness means in this usage, disregarding accepted rules.

    Because the poor want a seat at the table and the rich, white segment didn’t want them anywhere near the table.

  56. 56.

    Geminid

    @Martin: If I were a Republican like say, Karl Rove, I would not be concerned about DeSantis in the way I’d be concerned about Trump. DeSantis could lose, but Trump running again could mean a Democratic landslide.

  57. 57.

    davecb

    @Sure Lurkalot:

    After heavy criticism from Gov. Ron DeSantis, the College Board released on Wednesday an official curriculum for its new Advanced Placement course in African American Studies — stripped of much of the subject matter that had angered the governor and other conservatives.

    The College Board purged the names of many Black writers and scholars associated with critical race theory, the queer experience and Black feminism. It ushered out some politically fraught topics, like Black Lives Matter, from the formal curriculum.

    Is the College Board something whose mandate can be withdrawn, or is it just a for-profit company?

  58. 58.

    gene108

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I’ve seen commenters compare him to Scott Walker; that once he makes it to the national stage, he’ll face plant

    I think a lot of it depends on TFG’s fate. If he’s indicted (on anything) would that get Republicans to openly repudiate him? I don’t know.

    If Trump gets pushed out of the way DeSantis is lining up to be TFG’s heir apparent with big donors and the media.

    The real question is are 15-20 other Republicans who want to be President in 2024 going to treat DeSantis with kid gloves, like they did Trump in 2016, or are they going to look to really tear him down in the primary.

  61. 61.

    Baud

    Why won’t Dems fight?

    Fireworks in House after Democrat says ‘insurrectionists’ should be banned from leading Pledge of Allegiance
    A routine House Judiciary Committee meeting erupted into a nearly hourlong heated debate Wednesday over the Pledge of Allegiance.

  62. 62.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Martin:

    Consider that the GOP elites are again starting to ramp up the ‘we need to ban abortion to win’ talking point, which is absolutely insane, just as a metric as to their overall sensibility.

    What, whut? Seriously? After the defeats they faced up and down the ballot last November? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at this point

    I think that’s a good explanation for why they keep doubling down on losers like that. Also, I think the right wing obsession with “censorship” and media control also factors in. They legitimately believe that one of the reasons they lose as much as they do in elections is because their message isn’t breaking through to “the People” due to “censorship”. That, and “rigged elections”

  63. 63.

    Geminid

    @gene108: They’ll tear DeSantis down, or at least they’ll try to

    I just hope the Republican candidates spend a lot money and leave a lot of hard feelings.

  64. 64.

    Betty Cracker

    @Almost Retired: I’m quoting exit poll numbers from memory, so grain of salt! But FL is where the most right-leaning  Latino immigrants tend to land, i.e., Cubans, Venezuelans, Colombians.

  66. 66.

    Wapiti

    @Martin: Small towns as fiefs: my father once mused that so much has changed – his own father had been mayor of the town he grew up in, and the man had finished something like the 8th grade.

    I wanted to say, for fuck’s sake, Dad, it was a village of maybe 1500 people, and none of them had more than a 8th grade education, and to hear you tell it, you were plenty glad to move somewhere, anywhere else.

  67. 67.

    Jeffro

    @Geminid: I know but I’m wondering why they think replacing trump with short trump, less entertaining trump, etc will help them win?  I get why they think DeSantis will eventually win over most trump voters…but he’s no Youngkin or Sununu who could pull the wool over independents or low-info Dems’ eyes.

     

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): it seems like he’s going to keep getting built up by the media and desperate-for-a-win Rs…but eventually, he has to go against trump, right?  They all do.  I’ll be interested to see how they try to rail about “injustice” when trump gets indicted and indicted and indicted, but do nothing about it (pissing off trump’s supporters) and then try to ‘pivot’ and smile at general election audiences.

  68. 68.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Baud:

    Ultimately, Cicilline’s amendment was defeated in a 24-13 vote in the GOP-led committee.

    Gaetz’s amendment, on the other hand, passed unanimously, 39-0.

    Why did they even bother voting for that shit? I don’t care what dumb shit Jeff Van Drew or that other moron said; it’s ridiculous and absurd to say the Pledge more than once a day

  69. 69.

    MisterDancer

    @Bill Arnold: yes, and this is in that Bitter Southern article, too! There’s a bit in it (and her book) about how Slave holders held Election Day bashes, got poor Whites drunk to buy votes to keep those slavery Wankers in power. And, of course, blame went to the poor Whites by their “betters”.

    I mean, I almost titled this “DeSantis is Boss Hogg redux,” but realized I’d have to explain THE DUKES OF HAZZARD to folx, and it wasn’t fair to inflict that on the unwary…

  70. 70.

    James E Powell

    Are the parents who support this really brainwashed? We have to hold them responsible. Even the people who are just not bothered, who raise no objection, have agency. They are, in the parlance of public policies, standing idly by.

  71. 71.

    Kay

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    The AP course is a pilot – they roll them out in a limited number of schools and then take feedback from teachers. The College Board says the teacher feedback indicated that some of the theory in the course should be part of “projects”, not direct instruction.

    It’s in the NYTimes and DeSantis’ interest to promote the changes in the course as a DeSantis triumph, but it’s not necessarily true. You know how this goes. They marketed Trump the same way- “HUGE winner! Unstoppable force of nature!” They’re not RELIABLE.

  74. 74.

    Martin

    @gene108: Well, UC does that, not CA.

    But I would expect that yes, UC will push back against that. UC has autonomy on which AP coursework they will accept. There are two benefits to AP courses:

    1. As an indicator of academic rigor for the purposes of admissions.
    2. To grant credit for college level studies.

    1 is what most students worry most about. 2 doesn’t matter if you don’t get in. I think it’s unlikely that UC would remove the course for 1 since, well, that’s a lot of work. Like, crazy amount of work – I could write a book on that. But I doubt that any UC, and probably a LOT of universities would give subject credit for the course just based on what’s described above. I oversaw part of the statewide subject matter articulation program, and it’s pretty thorough. My guess is that the changes will pull it quite clearly out of compliance on two factors:

    1. they almost certain removed some of the foundational elements of any black studies intro course.
    2. one of the philosophical foundations on which black studies/queer studies/etc. is built is that you don’t censor, you don’t erase figures from the history. That’s the whole fucking point of the discipline. Even if the individual that the College Board removed weren’t part of the local course, the fact that the College Board removed them will and *why* they were removed will disqualify the articulation.

    I can’t speak to how many other universities would go along, but my best guess is all of the Ivy’s, all of the baby Ivy’s and some of the more principled publics out there. I can think of a few that there will be a big political push within the campus to resist it.

    As to offering it, that will be handled at the district level. I’m going to look at the changes to the course itself once I can read it over (AP course/exam documentation is pretty hefty) and I’ll give a recommendation to my school district (I’ve been an advisor to the district in the past – both as a subject matter expert and as an expert on alignment with university curricula and impact on student admissions – jobs used to stick to me like barnacles).

    CA now requires that ethnic studies be a required subject in state high schools for graduation. Here’s the core competencies as established by the three university systems:

    • analyze and articulate concepts of ethnic studies, including but not limited to race and ethnicity, racialization, equity, ethno-centrism, eurocentrism, white supremacy, self-determination, liberation, decolonization and anti-racism.
    • apply theory to describe critical events in the histories, cultures, and intellectual traditions, with special focus on the lived- experiences and social struggles of one or more of the following four historically defined racialized core groups: Native Americans, African Americans, Latina/o Americans, and/or Asian Americans, and emphasizing agency and group-affirmation.
    • critically discuss the intersection of race and ethnicity with other forms of difference affected by hierarchy and oppression, such as class, gender, sexuality, religion, spirituality, national origin, immigration status, ability, and/or age.
    • describe how struggle, resistance, social justice, solidarity, and liberation as experienced by communities of color are relevant to current issues.
    • demonstrate active engagement with anti-racist issues, practices and movements to build a diverse, just, and equitable society beyond the classroom.

    I suspect it’s impossible for the revised AP curriculum to meet the state competencies, given that gender and sexuality are requirements as is anti-racist practice and movements. So my recommendation might be unnecessary. Now, an AP course can’t sit in place of that requirement, but it can be an alternative to that requirement provided that it meets the state requirements. Instructors might need to add a lot (too much) of content to bring it into compliance, so it might have to be a 2nd ethnic studies course, which would probably overlap too much with the first one.

  76. 76.

    frosty

    I know I’m a broken record but IMHO we’re still fighting the English Civil War from the 1600s between the Cavaliers (autocratic gentry) and the Roundheads. I base this on the book Albion’s Seed.

    Then there were the Quakers (PA) and Borderers (Appalachia) who got pulled in to one side or another.

    Here I thought they held long grudges in the Balkans. We’re just the same.

  78. 78.

    MisterDancer

    @Jeffro: he’s no Youngkin or Sununu who could pull the wool over independents or low-info Dems’ eyes.

    I’m just not willing to take that bet. That bet involves the lives and health of a lot of people.

    The American public is being sold DeSantis right now by our “paper of record.” I just cannot, in all good conscience, act as though he’s not a Real and Present Danger to so much of the fabric of America, especially those on the margins.

    He wants to be seen as a threat, and I believe we take him at his word that he is a threat. Because mocking only goes so damn far.

  81. 81.

    SomeRandomGuy

    I often wonder why people don’t make the obvious arguments in cases like this.

    Florida is *forbidding* children to read books, from school, that their parents wish them to – all because some people are afraid of their own children reading them. If the goal is really parental control, why aren’t there permission slips? People who don’t turn them in can’t read or check out books (except for the “safe” ones), but all children of parents who want an education *can* read such books.

    Forbidding parents from being able to let their children read, e.g., Autobiography of Malcolm X in school is *not* giving parents control – it’s the exact opposite.

  85. 85.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Jeffro: Right now, DeSantis polls better against Biden in head-to-heads than Trump does, and frequently he wins. I’m sure that’s mostly because DeSantis is basically “Generic Republican” (and “not Trump”) to most people at this point, and he still has some of that horrifying “won the pandemic” juice. But that’s probably what they’re looking at.

  86. 86.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @sab:

    That’s nice of him to be concerned, but I’ve been fine. Just taking a break. I’ve been trying to focus on work and getting promoted.

    I (hopefully) have an interview this Friday morning to get into the company’s 10 week Team Leader Development Program to become a department manager.

    I say hopefully because I haven’t yet received the Microsoft Teams email to set up the virtual interview. I’m probably going to shoot the recruiter I’ve been in communication with an email tonight asking about it. I last talked to her on the phone this Monday. It’s been pretty annoying having to deal with them, it feels like pulling teeth to me. She’s usually called outside the time span I said I’d be available.

    There was another interview for a position in the store that I only got because my department manager and others were pushing for me. My department manager relayed to me that the store manager said I interviewed well, but that there was another candidate that had more experience they were looking for. Which is totally understandable, but it rankles me that neither my Store Leader or the Hourly recruiter ever told me whether i got the position or not. I had to find out from my department manager

    It was a full time, hourly union position, a “Curbside Lead” but it only paid $0.60 over my wage bracket. Apparently I dodged a bullet because even though it seems like it’d be a assistant manager position, it doesn’t really have too much authority and you’re still required to do the workload of a normal personal shopper.

    I talked to the recruiter for the TLDP last Monday and had to follow up with her via email last Friday when I was told I’d get a response from her within two days.

    I don’t know what to think. I know she probably has to set something up with a store leader for the interview, but I’d think that would have been done within two days since the agreed upon time for the interview is Friday morning. Is she just overworked/disorganized?

  88. 88.

    Martin

    So, I’m having a little rethink here on the AP thing. This feels like the sort of thing that California will troll over, because the state loves to do that. If I had to guess, in the next year there will be a bill that will make all of the things that Florida bans be stated requirements of the AP course, and force the AP to pick between the largest state in the country and the 3rd largest (normally we target Texas for this sort of treatment, but Gavin seems to take particular offense to DeSantis and I can’t blame him for that).

  89. 89.

    jonas

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): ​
      Colleges and universities can refuse to grant credit for an AP test ostensibly for “college level” Af-Am studies that has completely emptied the curriculum of relevant content. That would also get the CB’s attention. Outside FL, I presume. DeSantis will probably make the UF accept only AP credits that he deems toe his RWNJ line. “Research project: Have we been too hard on Hitler?”

  92. 92.

    Matt McIrvin

    @jonas: Do many colleges even give credit for AP test scores any more? I thought there had been a backlash on the grounds that the classes weren’t really college-equivalent. (I remember taking some that I’m pretty sure were more rigorous than the corresponding classes at the college I went to, but that seems to have been unusual.)

  93. 93.

    Kay

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    This is the NYTimes article making the claim the changes were due to DeSantis, but it’s a mess. There’s no actual evidence of any kind that’s what happened, other then the NYTimes announcing it in the first 6 paragraphs and then taking comments from conservative pundits who take credit. It’s invented. They pulled it out of their ass.

    Moreover, College Board officials said Wednesday that they had a time-stamped document showing that the final changes to the curriculum were made in December, before the Florida Department of Education sent its letter informing the College Board that it would not allow the course to be taught.

  94. 94.

    Brachiator

    @Betty Cracker:

    It appears to be a multi-racial Christo-fascist movement here in FL. DeSantis got something like 65% of whites, nearly 60% of Latinos and almost 15% of black votes.

    Looking at I think CBS exit poll results for FL. DeSantis got 19 percent of black male vote, and 9 percent of the black women vote.

    Looking at high 50s or 60s among Hispanics of Cuban and Puerto Rican descent.

    97 percent of Republicans, 53 percent of Independents.

    Married men, 68 percent DeSantis. Married women, 55 percent DeSantis.

    Some of the sources of his support are surprising.

  97. 97.

    Kay

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    Link. 

    DeSantis and his team are really good at marketing and it looks like political media are once again getting bamboozled into writing whatever the fuck these people tell them to write. It’s infuriating watching it happen again, but we are stuck with them and their bad work so will just have to beat him anyway.

  98. 98.

    Subsole

    @Martin:

    I never got the sympathy for small towns. And I’ve lived in some.

    It’s often just upscale coastals looking for a White Noble Savage, more often than not.

    All these dreary, sophisticated pseudo-elites laboring under the insulting (and insufferable) delusion that living five hours from the nearest WalMart imbues you with mystic peasant wisdom handed down from our fathers.

    When in truth, it just makes you some random asshole living in the middle of nowhere.

  99. 99.

    Jeffro

    @MisterDancer:

    I think I get the gist of what you’re saying, but it’s not a ‘bet’.  Youngkin and Sununu genuinely work to present themselves as moderates, pragmatic, whatever, with something to offer those outside the MAGA base.  It’s mostly a lie of course – they serve the same masters and play to the same racist fears as trump does, just in subtler ways.  But they are not trying to be new trump, or mini trump.

     

    DeSantis does not try to present himself as anything other than the next MAGA president, and an NYT article or twenty doesn’t/won’t change that.  I am taking him at his word that he’d like to be the next MAGA president, and is therefore a threat to the United States.

  100. 100.

    Jeffro

    @Kay: so…maybe DeSantis’ team saw an opportunity here?  Make a big show of “demanding” changes that they already knew were on the way?

  101. 101.

    Subsole

     

     

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I cannot predict my fellow hwhites with any confidence anymore.

    He does seem like he’s a little too aware of what he is (i.e. cut-rate psycho Kingfish) to get far. Trump was deluded enough to pull it off. I dunno if Ronnie High-Notes can pull it off…

  102. 102.

    Subsole

    @brendancalling:

    Now, now. I am reliably informed it is an exceptional outlet that does wonderful work on every other subject under the sun.

    (Marred only by a regrettable tendency to utterly drop the ball on the political context and events that undergirds and protects all those other structures, on which they no doubt do such exceptional reporting…)

  104. 104.

    Subsole

    @Geminid:

    I’m not so sure.

    People always vote stupid when the economy is good. It’s like the instant we aren’t starving, we indulge our spite or just stay home.

  105. 105.

    Subsole

    @frosty:

    Grudges tend to fester when you don’t force people to confront them.

    Look at the difference in Germany and Japan for an example.

  106. 106.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @gene108: Actually, it isn’t technically for profit according to the article:

    Acceptance for the new curriculum is important to the College Board, a nonprofit, because A.P. courses are a major source of revenue. The Board took in more than $1 billion in program service revenue in 2019, of which more than $490 million came from “AP and Instruction,” according to its tax-exempt filing.

    Erik Loomis puts this a bit more bluntly:

    The Advanced Placement system is corrupt to the core. It’s part of the privatization of public education, a “non-profit” that exists to create huge profits for itself by getting parents or school districts to pony up for expensive tests that many students are not prepared to take. Then, the AP grading system ensures that a certain percentage of these students will get college credit for these exams no matter how unprepared, based on the important principle of making sure next year’s parents will see it worth their while to pony up even more cash for a largely valueless educational experience.

  107. 107.

    Kay

    @Jeffro:

    I don’t know but the NYTimes doesn’t know either. They have conservatives taking credit and the College Board denial.

    DeSantis is definitely their guy though. Get ready. Big marketing push.

  108. 108.

    karen marie

    @Baud:   Oh, come on.  Nobody knows what “black conservatism” is or how it differs from “white conservatism” (otherwise known as “conservatism”).  It’s ripe for research!

    I’m so fucking glad I’m old so I can shove off this stinking mortal coil sooner than later, and hopefully before these people send me screaming into the street and breaking things.

  109. 109.

    phein63

    @Matt McIrvin:

    All four of our children got six or more AP credit hours in the 2010’s at different universities, which really helped two of them graduate on time.  So, yes, it’s still a thing.

  111. 111.

    Geminid

    @Jeffro: DeSantis has a lower downside than Trump. I think that’s what is moving Republican elites towards him.

    They may also doubt if Trump has any upside. I think Youngkin’s win in 2021 caught Republican leaders’ attention. Several factors were at play in the 12 point swing from Biden’s 10 point win in 2020 to Youngkin’s 2 point victory. But one factor had to be that Trump was not on the ballot in 2021

    But the problem is that Trump could pile up enough plurality primary wins to win the nomination. That may explain the push against Sununu. There needs to be a two man race.

  113. 113.

    Princess

    I think a small GOP field and a battle to the death between de Santis and Trump because the supporters of whoever loses are going to be bitter bitter bitter. It will be ugly. Haley is clearly running to be VP.

  114. 114.

    Suzanne

    @Subsole:

    When in truth, it just makes you some random asshole living in the middle of nowhere. 

    LMAO. Trufacts.

    I really do not fundamentally understand why rural people care if I like it there. They don’t like city life, and that’s fine. It doesn’t hurt my feelings.

  115. 115.

    Cameron

    People who believe DeSantis will collapse like a pricked balloon outside of Florida might want to think a bit more about it.  He won very handily here, and while Florida’s population mix is unique, so are most other states’.  It isn’t a colony on Mars.  I think he can be beaten, but I sure don’t take him for granted.

  116. 116.

    Kay

    @zhena gogolia:

    He’s really bad.

    I would prefer Trump win their primary. OTOH, DeSantis is really short, he has an awful speaking voice and he’s not at all charismatic – he’s oddly stiff. They all loved Chris Christie because Christie bullied teachers too and he flopped nationally. Christie was the most unpopular governor in the country by the time he left office despite full time media fluffing. Let’s wait and see.

  118. 118.

    Gvg

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): people don’t understand how the economy works, including rich people and a lot of people in finance or business. I won’t claim to understand much myself, but it made a big impression on me that when I took those basic courses, how much difficulty most people had accepting the evidence. Smart people I knew from other classes just could not believe what they were shown. It was like it was against their religion. Common sense said the teachers and the books must be wrong and they argued and forgot it as soon as the tests were over.

    We have also had good economic times for generations now. I know we have had recessions, sometimes “bad” ones and our generation has not done as well as our parents etc, but compared to historical times when banks crashed on a regular basis and the Great Depression was just worse than most but not unprecedented….we have had stability and good times so our country, and a lot of the rest of the world is just not understanding how real economics is.

    My family is only Irish in name we came so long ago, but because of the name, we talk about the famine. That is what an economic disaster is. And it used to happen, fairly often.

    Now they blather about balanced budgets when they really mean flexing their power over those they despise, plus they are stupid. But I don’t think they know they are stupid, see?

  119. 119.

    frosty

    @Kay: ​ DeSantis is really short…

    I’ve read that my lifetime salary has been 10% less than it could have been because of this. I’ve lived with being a half a foot shorter than average my whole life and now, NOW?? I’m starting to get pissed off.  Also, Tom Cruise is short.
    ETA and when I get a physical these days the doc knocks off a half inch. I don’t have it to spare!!​​​​​​

    ETA2: FYWP. I am really tired of the random switch between Visual and Text when I comment. I thought this was supposed to be fixed. I don’t want to have to deal with HTML to update a fucken comment (h/t Suzanne)

  120. 120.

    Geminid

    @Subsole: I’m not so sure about actual 2024 outcomes either. But I’m speaking to the outlook of Republican elites, and from what I’ve seen, Karl Rove and Mitch McConnell have been gunning for Trump ever since he lost in 2020. I think McConnell may have written Trump off before that. He could see Trump was bad news for the GOP.

    The problem the Roves and McConnells are trying to work out is how best to ditch Trump while keeping his hard core supporters. I think they know they need to ditch him. If they can.

  121. 121.

    Antonius

    The best part about their agenda is the diminishing number of oligarchs to deal with. Sooner or later, there’s one head that needs rolling.

  122. 122.

    Kay

    @frosty:

    I know it’s dumb but I also think it’s a problem for presidential candidates. It’s not his fault but it is his problem.

    Let’s hope for a bloody primary where Trump won’t go away quietly.

  124. 124.

    Gvg

    @jonas: Florida “accepts” a lot of credits, transfer, AP, IB, dual enrollment high school college credit (our state pushes this, makes it very available, and has for more than 40 years) etc. I have known a few students who were admitted as freshmen but had around 90 credits already. The thing is, those credits are mostly electives, only a few will meet specific degree requirements for whatever major a student decides to go for. And those credits are worth getting because, well they prepare the student for college much better than ordinary high school classes and at a school as competitive as UF, you probably won’t get admitted without at least some credit. And some of the credits will turn out to advance your degree, you may even figure out what you want to major in by taking those courses. But generally, don’t count on a class like this helping. You are far better off taking it at the college anyway. AP courses should be something like a building block class you can get on to the next one in college sooner, or just get a basic out of the way early. I would never try to take a nuanced interesting course like AP African American history in high school. You would cheat yourself of a better college class in actual college.

  125. 125.

    Suzanne

    @frosty:

    I don’t want to have to deal with HTML to update a fucken comment (h/t Suzanne) 

    It’s actually h/t to Vicente Fox, who said on Twitter:

    TRUMP, when will you understand that I am not paying for that fucken wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it.

    LMAO.
    Still awesome.

  126. 126.

    RaflW

    An extremely small thing in the realm of this tinpot fascist, but I saw today that DeSantorum announced some sort of tax holiday for purchasers of gas stoves.

    I’d be up for helping fund a lawsuit by people who live in buildings (certainly some older condo highrises) that do not have gas service, against this arbitrary and capricious tax loophole.

    I doubt the suit would go anywhere, but the point would be to get ordinary Floridians on TV asking why the f**k gas stoves are so special, and why good honest retirees in gassless condo towers have to suffer outrageous sales taxes on electric stoves. Get on the local news saying that DeStupid is discriminatory and utterly random.

  129. 129.

    Mai Naem mobile

    @Geminid: i don’t think McConnell is going to run again.  I don’t think Elaine Chao would have said anything negative about TFG  if McConnell was going to run again. He’s  got his big goal done with the USSC. I also think the Paul Pelosi attack has freaked out the longer serving congress folks more than they let on.

  132. 132.

    Cameron

    @RaflW: More pwning the libs.  Somebody told him that gas stoves are a health hazard, so he immediately saw the opportunity to stand for freedumb to inhale noxious emissions.

  133. 133.

    Betsy

    @frosty: Same here! Your broken record is my audiotape loop.

    oh, Mayans seed also explains the two different economic viewpoints. One, the wealth is based on stealing labor from the maximum number of people that you control, and the other, that wealth is based on control in your own labor, benefiting from the fruits of it, and increasing your knowledge and skills, so that you increase your productivity, and therefore your value in the marketplace. This is all still very very true — and regional.

  134. 134.

    frosty

    @Kay: ​To be clear, I’m not pissed at you, just society.​ It hit me last year when I was on a bike trip with four other guys and lagging behind every day. Then I looked at a picture of us and I was a head shorter than all of them. OK!! It’s not my gear (my 30-year old bike). It’s my stumpy little legs!!!

  135. 135.

    Kay

    @Gvg:

    Reading about the pilot, teachers say the course is popular- students want to take it. That’s worth something, I think, what they’re interested in while they are in high school rather than always preparing them for this or that down the road.

  137. 137.

    Cameron

    @Mai Naem mobile: Just saw on MSN that McConnell kicked Scott off the Commerce Committee for trying to oust him.  Much bad blood.  It’s gonna be Yertle vs. Nosferatu, three falls, 15-minute time limit, in the steel cage.

  139. 139.

    Ksmiami

    @Suzanne: yes.. I hope they smoke, drink bleach and breathe toxic fumes so they can just die off and leave the rest of us the fuck alone

  140. 140.

    Mai Naem mobile

    @Cameron: between DeSantis, Mike Flynn and Pompeo I am thinking the reason the US has ended up in some stupid unnecessary  wars is because of the kind of people the  military academies are churning out.

  142. 142.

    Suzanne

    @Ksmiami: There’s a lot of performatively unhealthy behavior, and I never feel like I’m “owned” by it. More like, “Hell, it’s your explosive diarrhea, be my guest”.

  143. 143.

    Betsy

    @RaflW: Laws can be discriminatory. That’s what makes them laws.

    Whether they are *constitutionally* discriminatory depends on what they use as their basis of discrimination.

    Gas vs electric stoves? Income levels? Ethanol content?  Whether the perpetrator had a previous conviction or not? Yes.  All OK types of discrimination. Tax laws constantly distinguish between this and that.

    Not problematic in a legal sense.  May be problematic in  a political sense.

    Discriminate by race? Gender? Age? Or other innate status?  The answer for most of these is — problematic in a legal sense.

  144. 144.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Cameron: that is interesting. He also pulled Mike Lee off the Commerce Committee. I haveno idea how many committees they’re on or which are most important, but Mollie Hemingway is bigly mad! Makes me wonder (again) if McConnell hasn’t decided to run out the clock sunning himself on a log back in Kentucky, and wants to kick some people in the nuts as he waddles off the stage

  147. 147.

    Jackie

    @Mai Naem mobile: I agree. McTurtle already gamed KY to circumvent their Democratic governor from choosing his replacement should he retire or flip on his back permanently before his term ended, insuring a Republican would replace him temporarily until 2026.

  153. 153.

    J R in WV

    @MisterDancer: ​
     

    From a speech of Dr. King’s, a few months before he passed:

    With all due respect, Dr King didn’t “pass” — he was murdered by a paid assassin. Like so many democratic patriots. My dad passed from COPD resulting from chemo for his industrially caused leukemia. He wasn’t shot down by a murderer. Not the same thing at all.

  155. 155.

    J R in WV

    @Ken B:

    The New York Times; Proudly fluffing Nazis since 1933.

    From Vox:

    On November 21, 1922, the New York Times published its very first article about Adolf Hitler. It’s an incredible read…

    So you were off by 11 years or so. They gave Mr Hitler his first tongue bath in 1922… but way not the last.

  156. 156.

    J R in WV

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): ​
     

    it’s ridiculous and absurd to say the Pledge more than once a day

    Back in the 1950s when they wanted us to say the pledge in 4th grade, I just stood there and opened and closed my mouth. I don’t think I ever said the whole thing, ever. Was despicable then, still is !!

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