Just a brief note on the absolute failure and disaster that is the 737 MAX program at Boeing. It’s looking like the door plug blew out of Alaska Air 1282 because the 4 bolts that were supposed to retain it weren’t installed. It’s also looking like quality control across the Boeing 737 line is a sham, a farce, a disaster — because Spirit, the contractor in Wichita that makes the 737 fuselage, is shitty, and the Renton assembly factory has to fix all of Spirits fuckups, and they’re overwhelmed.
If that’s true — and I’m going to embed a comment that Rayne at Emptywheel found from a purported Boeing engineer that I think is probably correct, below — then every 737 MAX must be torn apart and completely re-inspected. What else did they miss?
As a recreational reader of airplane history, this has never happened before. There have been failures of certain parts (737 rudder actuators), certain designs (Comet, Lockheed Electra), of maintenance (American’s DC-10 engine maintenance, Alaska Air’s MD-80 jackscrew), but I don’t know of any instance where assembly QA was so bad that parts could have been left off.
Comment after the break:
This comment appears on a Leeham News story on the 737 MAX:
Current Boeing employee here – I will save you waiting two years for the NTSB report to come out and give it to you for free: the reason the door blew off is stated in black and white in Boeings own records. It is also very, very stupid and speaks volumes about the quality culture at certain portions of the business.
A couple of things to cover before we begin:
Q1) Why should we believe you?
A) You shouldn’t, I’m some random throwaway account, do your own due diligence. Others who work at Boeing can verify what I say is true, but all I ask is you consider the following based on its own merits.Q2) Why are you doing this?
A) Because there are many cultures at Boeing, and while the executive culture may be throughly compromised since we were bought by McD, there are many other people who still push for a quality product with cutting edge design. My hope is that this is the wake up call that finally forces the Board to take decisive action, and remove the executives that are resisting the necessary cultural changes to return to a company that values safety and quality above schedule.With that out of the way… why did the left hand (LH) mid-exit door plug blow off of the 737-9 registered as N704AL? Simple- as has been covered in a number of articles and videos across aviation channels, there are 4 bolts that prevent the mid-exit door plug from sliding up off of the door stop fittings that take the actual pressurization loads in flight, and these 4 bolts were not installed when Boeing delivered the airplane, our own records reflect this.
The mid-exit doors on a 737-9 of both the regular and plug variety come from Spirit already installed in what is supposed to be the final configuration and in the Renton factory, there is a job for the doors team to verify this “final” install and rigging meets drawing requirements. In a healthy production system, this would be a “belt and suspenders” sort of check, but the 737 production system is quite far from healthy, its a rambling, shambling, disaster waiting to happen. As a result, this check job that should find minimal defects has in the past 365 calendar days recorded 392 nonconforming findings on 737 mid fuselage door installations (so both actual doors for the high density configs, and plugs like the one that blew out). That is a hideously high and very alarming number, and if our quality system on 737 was healthy, it would have stopped the line and driven the issue back to supplier after the first few instances. Obviously, this did not happen. Now, on the incident aircraft this check job was completed on 31 August 2023, and did turn up discrepancies, but on the RH side door, not the LH that actually failed. I could blame the team for missing certain details, but given the enormous volume of defects they were already finding and fixing, it was inevitable something would slip through- and on the incident aircraft something did. I know what you are thinking at this point, but grab some popcorn because there is a plot twist coming up.
The next day on 1 September 2023 a different team (remember 737s flow through the factory quite quickly, 24 hours completely changes who is working on the plane) wrote up a finding for damaged and improperly installed rivets on the LH mid-exit door of the incident aircraft.
A brief aside to explain two of the record systems Boeing uses in production. The first is a program called CMES which stands for something boring and unimportant but what is important is that CMES is the sole authoritative repository for airplane build records (except on 787 which uses a different program). If a build record in CMES says something was built, inspected, and stamped in accordance with the drawing, then the airplane damn well better be per drawing. The second is a program called SAT, which also stands for something boring and unimportant but what is important is that SAT is *not* an authoritative records system, its a bullentin board where various things affecting the airplane build get posted about and updated with resolutions. You can think of it sort of like a idiots version of Slack or something. Wise readers will already be shuddering and wondering how many consultants were involved, because, yes SAT is a *management visibilty tool*. Like any good management visibilty tool, SAT can generate metrics, lots of metrics, and oh God do Boeing managers love their metrics. As a result, SAT postings are the primary topic of discussion at most daily status meetings, and the whole system is perceived as being extremely important despite, I reiterate, it holding no actual authority at all.
We now return to our incident aircraft, which was written up for having defective rivets on the LH mid-exit door. Now as is standard practice kn Renton (but not to my knowledge in Everett on wide bodies) this write-up happened in two forms, one in CMES, which is the correct venue, and once in SAT to “coordinate the response” but really as a behind-covering measure so the manager of the team that wrote it can show his boss he’s shoved the problem onto someone else. Because there are so many problems with the Spirit build in the 737, Spirit has teams on site in Renton performing warranty work for all of their shoddy quality, and this SAT promptly gets shunted into their queue as a warranty item. Lots of bickering ensues in the SAT messages, and it takes a bit for Spirit to get to the work package. Once they have finished, they send it back to a Boeing QA for final acceptance, but then Malicious Stupid Happens! The Boeing QA writes another record in CMES (again, the correct venue) stating (with pictures) that Spirit has not actually reworked the discrepant rivets, they *just painted over the defects*. In Boeing production speak, this is a “process failure”. For an A&P mechanic at an airline, this would be called “federal crime”.
Presented with evidence of their malfeasance, Spirit reopens the package and admits that not only did they not rework the rivets properly, there is a damaged pressure seal they need to replace (who damaged it, and when it was damaged is not clear to me). The big deal with this seal, at least according to frantic SAT postings, is the part is not on hand, and will need to be ordered, which is going to impact schedule, and (reading between the lines here) Management is Not Happy.
However, more critical for purposes of the accident investigation, the pressure seal is unsurprisingly sandwiched between the plug and the fuselage, and you cannot replace it without opening the door plug to gain access. All of this conversation is documented in increasingly aggressive posts in the SAT, but finally we get to the damning entry which reads something along the lines of “coordinating with the doors team to determine if the door will have to be removed entirely, or just opened. If it is removed then a Removal will have to be written.” Note: a Removal is a type of record in CMES that requires formal sign off from QA that the airplane been restored to drawing requirements.
If you have been paying attention to this situation closely, you may be able to spot the critical error: regardless of whether the door is simply opened or removed entirely, the 4 retaining bolts that keep it from sliding off of the door stops have to be pulled out. A removal should be written in either case for QA to verify install, but as it turns out, someone (exactly who will be a fun question for investigators) decides that the door only needs to be opened, and no formal Removal is generated in CMES (the reason for which is unclear, and a major process failure). Therefore, in the official build records of the airplane, a pressure seal that cannot be accessed without opening the door (and thereby removing retaining bolts) is documented as being replaced, but the door is never officially opened and thus no QA inspection is required.
This entire sequence is documented in the SAT, and the nonconformance records in CMES address the damaged rivets and pressure seal, but at no point is the verification job reopened, or is any record of removed retention bolts created, despite it this being a physical impossibility. Finally with Spirit completing their work to Boeing QAs satisfaction, the two rivet-related records in CMES are stamped complete, and the SAT closed on 19 September 2023. No record or comment regarding the retention bolts is made.I told you it was stupid.
So, where are the bolts? Probably sitting forgotten and unlabeled (because there is no formal record number to label them with) on a work-in-progress bench, unless someone already tossed them in the scrap bin to tidy up.
There’s lots more to be said about the culture that enabled this to happened, but thats the basic details of what happened, the NTSB report will say it in more elegant terms in a few years.
I know, it’s an anonymous comment on a blog, but it reads as true to me.
raven
Damn, I flying to Costa Rica this week end on a Boeing 737-700.
Wapiti
@raven: the people who clap when the plane lands safely aren’t wrong.
wjca
What leaps to my mind first is: who/what is this Spirit outfit? Where did they come from? (New company created just to build these airframes? Old company which got renamed because their brand was toxic? Other?)
$8 blue check mistermix
@raven: 737-700 is the older generation that does not have the QC issues of the 737-MAX program, nor the design issues.
raven
@Wapiti: Shit, when we took off from Biên Hòa you should heard the cheer!!
$8 blue check mistermix
@wjca: Spirit is an old aerospace company in Wichita acquired by Boeing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_AeroSystems
raven
@$8 blue check mistermix: I figure they would have contacted us.
CaseyL
Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen. Boards are not generally chosen for their ability or inclination to challenge top management, and this Board has (SFAIK) not done anything to challenge top management previously… such as after the freaking fatal crashes of the MAX a few years ago. I don’t remember the Board saying anything about changing the management “culture” then – when there were a few hundred fatalities – and don’t expect them to do so now.
$8 blue check mistermix
Also, FWIW, Boeing’s hometown paper validates a lot of what was said in the comment:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-not-spirit-mis-installed-piece-that-blew-off-alaska-max-9-jet/
It adds this:
Baud
Let he has never forgotten to tie his shoes throw the first stone.
dmsilev
@$8 blue check mistermix: Spirit _used_ to be part of Boeing but then got spun off because, so far as I can tell, some executives wanted bigger bonuses and something something outsourcing something something focus on our core competencies blah blah blah.
trollhattan
@wjca: I think Spirit is a renaming of Boeing’s old Wichita plant, but spun off, a subsidiary, a ploy to function cheaply in a right-to-work state?
IIRC Wichita built B-29, KC135 tankers and other AF planes.
I was a “Boeing kid” like a quarter of Seattle, but back in the 707-747 era.
ETA brought this up in an earlier thread including recommending Netflix “Downfall” on the Boeing NCAS debacle. It’s horrifying and utterly angering WRT how aloof management are, including in front of the Senate.
El Cruzado
Apparently building plane fuselages isn’t a core competency of a company that makes commercial airliners.
SpaceUnit
I’ve never been less interested in flying than I am now. The whole process just sucks. Either a wing is going to fall off mid-flight or the passenger next to you is going to lose their marbles. I’d rather walk.
Quaker in a Basement
Increase dividends. That’ll shut ’em up.
Harrison Wesley
So how’s that national high-speed rail thingie coming along?
Sure Lurkalot
Scary enough for the flying public who often don’t know or care what kind of plane they will be traveling on (even if especially vigilant in these matters, the equipment that pulls up to the gate may not be what you “booked”) but why aren’t pilots and flight attendants (and their unions) vocal about this?
TBone
Brings to mind this old classic:
https://m.ok.ru/video/825413012131
sab
When I was a little kid in the 1960s we moved a lot, so we flew on airplanes a lot to visit distant grandparents. I wasn’t a good traveller. I always barfed. That was my big fear of flying- barfing in the sky.
Getting sucked out of a hole in the fuselage never even occured to me.
tokyokie
My understanding is that for years, Boeing’s executive leadership came up through engineering, and Boeing products were highly regarded. Then the MBA assholes gained control, moved the headquarters to Chicago, and the company’s products’ quality declined precipitously.
Brachiator
This is all bringing back memories of my college days, and the summer I spent working for a company that made bolts and fasteners for the aerospace industry.
CaseyL
@tokyokie:
It was astonishing: Boeing “bought” McDonnell Douglas, but was subsumed by them. All of Boeing’s top management were just McDonnell Douglas top management, switching company names on their business cards.
I won’t say the culture changed overnight, but it did start to change overnight. The unions weren’t having any of that MD bullcrap (where Sales and Marketing drive design decisions rather than Engineering) so Boeing flit to Chicago, where it could enshittify itself in peace.
ColoradoGuy
Video by a 737 mechanic:
https://youtu.be/XhRYqvCAX_k
Brachiator
@tokyokie:
A radio host who is a fiend about aviation history blames the problems on McDonnell Douglas, which bought Boeing. A NY Times article offers a similar sentiment.
Jay
Back in the day, when you could have “stuff” in your carry on, and I flew a lot for work, on everything from big jets to float planes,
I always did a visual scan of the other passengers to pick out whom I would kill and eat first when we crashed.
JDM
I saw it mentioned that Kayak lets you include or exclude various planes from your search. Another ridiculous thing you shouldn’t have to do yourself, but at least it’s an option.
Snarki, child of Loki
Boeing’s Executive & Board MBAs should be tossed from a hole in a Boeing fuselage, at 10,000 feet or so. One by one, so each can “appreciate” the fate that awaits them.
gene108
@Brachiator:
Boeing, as far as I know, was never in financial trouble. The whole culture of maximizing shareholder value really needs to be replaced, because it has led to awful long term business decisions.
anon
@El Cruzado: profits is the core competency
Steeplejack
@TBone:
Hey, in future, maybe give us a link to a YouTube trailer or an IMDB link instead of to a bootleg movie on a Russian website. Readers here have varying levels of security on their devices (and varying levels of knowledge of same), and who knows what digital barnacles and whatnot they might pick up on that site.
Another Scott
Interesting.
EmptyWheel says it was posted on January 16.
Boeing’s stock lost about 5% that day on 35+M shares – I guess the banksters were reading the blogs.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
wjca
It’s looking rather like core incompetencies at this point. Otherwise, putting MBA types in charge and sidelining the engineers. (@tokyokie got there first)
John S.
@CaseyL:
Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens all the time. I personally got to experience this phenomenon when Fiserv merged with First Data.
First Data was a lousy company saddled with debt by KKR, run by the inept Frank Bisignano and his army of bean counters and boot lickers with a culture similar to McD. Fiserv had a completely different culture that was based more on customer satisfaction and a desire to innovate, similar to the culture of Boeing.
After a couple years, all the original Fiserv executives were gone, replaced by First Data executives all loyal to Frank Bisignano, who by then had wormed his way back into being CEO after the Fiserv CEO abruptly resigned.
So a pretty similar pattern emerged as with what happened in Boeing. The company that “bought” another company ended up being taken over from the inside by the company they acquired. But at least Fiserv isn’t in a business that puts lives at risk.
wjca
We saw something similar when Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch. A couple of years on, the folks in charge were the ones who had run Merrill into the ground. Guess their core competency was playing management politics, rather than something as mundane as actually running a company.
twbrandt
@JDM: If it’s Boeing, I ain’t going.
TBone
@Steeplejack: sorry! I didn’t notice the “ru” at all. I’m fighting strep throat and fever fatigue has turned me into being about as sharp as a bowling ball.
KrackenJack
@John S.: As the old MBA joke goes:
“What do you make?”
“Money”
Those KKR / LBO companies are a cancer in every industry. Juice profits by outsourcing, offshoring and reducing quality. Do stock buybacks. Use the stock to buy sustainably-run competitors. The ones you don’t buy feel the pressure to cut prices anyway.
YY_Sima Qian
This is the inevitable result of the overly financialized capitalism that grew out of the Reagan-Thatcher “revolution”, then spread to varying extents across the world. Maximizing short term financial returns, immediate stock market valuations, & capital efficiency were rewarded by the investor class, & not product quality/design, cost efficiency, sustainable business models or technology roadmaps. Marketing of products takes on greater importance relative to design & quality as well. Today, C-Suites can give themselves, w/ the enthusiastic blessing of the boards, fat bonuses by driving up the stock prices through buy backs, rather than improving the fundamentals of their companies.
This sentiment dovetailed nicely w/ the Neoliberal economic theory then in vogue (& while now largely out of favor in the West, remains the lense through which Western governments & MSM tend to view the ROW): maximizing capital efficiency & mobility, maximizing profitability, which necessarily produces conditions for labor precarity, resource scarcity, & formation of monopolies/oligopolies (how else profit margins could be maximized), rather than prioritizing supply & adoption at scale to the benefit of the masses. Profits are privatized (& relatively concentrated among the few) while the costs are socialized (on the backs of the many, w/ the few being the least impacted).
The socio-economic consequences are feeding momentum for the illiberal/reactionary/populist/nativist turn across the world.
YY_Sima Qian
@Harrison Wesley: Unfortunately, the population distribution of CONUS is not amenable to constructing a national high speed rail network, density is not high enough in most parts of the country. The best the US could achieve is a few regional lines (such as the NE Corridor) that are disconnected from each other, & thus will not benefit from the network effect that can drive up utilization exponentially on a per km track basis. Even building these regional lines/small networks would be exorbitantly expensive & time consuming due to NIMBYism & all of the impact studies requirements, thus hostage to local electoral politics.
Then, there is the issue that, once train travel times exceed 3 – 4 hrs, high speed rail start to lose competitiveness vis-a-vis planes.
Of course, railway networks (especially passenger service) are public goods w/ extremely long lives, & should not be assessed via standard financial accounting/business investment models. After all, the US Interstate system was not built to break even on return on investment w/in 5 or 10 years.
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: Do you ever check out the “Populism Updates” Twitter account? It mostly reports on elections around the world. The lady who runs it started out reporting on parties like the Italian Five Stars and the German Afd but now “it’s just the news I guess.” She reposts a lot of reports by journalists familiar with the nations in question.
I really like her header photo. She’s wearing a rakish beret, an army jacket and a bandolier full of carrots.
wjca
I’m as negative as anyone about what MBAs do to companies and the economy generally. But a lot of the skills you can learn getting an MBA seem to be useful for running a company.
The problem comes from the ends toward which those skills are put. I suspect that the path to getting rid of the KKR / LBO cancer involves changing the culture in the business schools. Get the teachers there focused on building successful companies over time, rather than asset stripping to boost short term / quarterly returns.
C Stars
@Jay: So you were assessing how appetizing your fellow passengers appeared? That’s next level.
FlyingToaster
I saw (on Bluesky, coupla hours ago) that Dominic Gates (covers Boeing for the Seattle Times) has confirmed the story both with the anonymous poster and with other Boeing personnel.
Why isn’t Spirit required to obey FAA regs? My dad (A&P license, TWA mechanic/lead mechanic/inspector/lead inspector, 1946-1986) would have wanted to report these planes on receipt — not to Boeing, but to the FAA.
Or maybe ask, why is the FAA toothless, nowadays?
C Stars
@YY_Sima Qian: You state the problem so concisely. But what is the solution?
PapuMon
Somehow this is all the fault of DEI or CRT or Woke Mind Virus or something something COMMUNISM
Urza
Who among us does not feel like that Boeing employee at our jobs?
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: Currently, Amtrak’s top speed is 150 mph. I just want to see more of that. High speed rail has become a talisman of modernity but I think the US can get a bigger bang for the buck expanding conventional rail service. The Infrastructure bill has $60 billion for Amtrak that is just beginning to be spent. If Democrats keep Republicans in the minority we can add another $30 billion in a couple years.
We have already developed an extensive air passenger travel system. Transitioning it to carbon-neutral fuel would not be that heavy a lift. Democrats in the last Congress considered a phased-in mandate for carbon-neutral fuel. They set it aside for now, but I think Congress will pass one later this decade.
Ksmiami
@KrackenJack: legalized mafia tactics- seriously. I’ve long argued that private equity is cannibalizing our economy.
Martin
@dmsilev: Usual profit margin chasing. Investors want higher margins so you take the low margin parts of the business and make them their own thing. Revenues go down because you chopped off part of the business but margins go up because you kept the stuff that throws off the cash.
A lot of US industries hate this because if you rely on specialized parts or processes or you want to integrate that stuff into your QC you can no longer really do it, but it makes the number the investors demand go up.
This is one of the things that hurts US manufacturing. There are a lot of things that REALLY benefit from vertical integration, but you have a manufacturing business with design, engineering, and manufacturing and they will 100% try to break off the manufacturing with the expectation that margins on the design/engineering side will improve and the manufacturing can get economies of scale, but if you rely on specialized manufacturing for the design/engineering to work, and you aren’t, like, Apple who have dictate terms then that business is probably going to fall apart because the specialized manufacturing was what allowed the engineers to do their thing.
My son’s employer is integrated engineering/manufacturing for the semiconductor industry. Semiconductor biz needs some components designed for their quarter billion dollar bits of equipment, shit that nobody has ever done before, you aren’t buying your stuff at Digikey – you’re having someone design and build it where the engineers (like my son) can walk over and make sure every goddamn thing is done exactly right because the component needs to do something unique.
Boeing is the name that’s going to eat shit here, not Spirit. And what’s Boeing going to do about it? Spirit was their manufacturing. It’s not like Boeing can shop around.
YY_Sima Qian
@C Stars: In the US, elect more progressive/socialist/left wing politicians that see the root causes more clearly & have proposals to addressing them (starting w/ the financial/regulatory incentives that favor financialization over the real economy). Seize the current moment of strong dissatisfaction w/ the status quo to build popular support for progressive/socialist/left wing policies, & not allow the populist reactionaries to hijack & ride that anti-establishment sentiment toward kleptocratic, xenophobic & militarist ends, by appealing to people’s fears & baser instincts. The tricky balance comes in making compromises w/ the liberals & moderates, because all of the anti-Fascists forces have to form & sustain a united “Popular Front” (to borrow a 1930s term) majority to defeat the Fascists.
Now is not a moment for technocratic maintenance & nudging. We saw that during the 8 years of Obama (who I strongly admire) & Hillary’s (who I don’t particularly admire) campaign platform, they were not enough. Biden has done some great things on domestic policy, including a decisive rhetorical break from neoliberal economic theory. However, I think the Biden team’s industrial policy (& the US desperately needs some industrial policy) are poorly thought out, far too much in service of geopolitical rivalry (& thus futilely trying to fight economic gravity), & are unrealistic in expectations of short term impact. Heightening geopolitical rivalry also makes the ground more fertile for right wing xenophobic populism & authoritarianism “justified” by national security claims.
YY_Sima Qian
@wjca: I am an engineer by education & vocation, & I work w/ MBAs everyday. There is nothing wrong w/ MBAs, they can be & often are critical contributors to a companies success. They should just not be allowed to operate w/o checks. I find the best mid- to high level managers to be those w/ technical and/or operational backgrounds, but also MBSA training, & who apply such training as tools to secure objectives, rather than as gospels to follow.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: Amtrak’s average speed through the NE Corridor is something like 60 mph, because for most of the route there aren’t the turning radius or grade separation to operate faster speeds safely. Increasing the speeds throughout the length of route means building an entirely new track, w/ attendant signaling system. It will be stuck in NIMBY driven litigations & impact reviews forever.
The Tampa – Orlando HSR line has resulted in numerous deaths due to accidents during its year of operation, because of the lack of grade separation.
WaterGirl
@TBone: It’s a teachable moment for all of us. Or at least a good reminder to me!
Chief Oshkosh
@ColoradoGuy: Juan Brown is not a 737 mechanic. He is a Boeing 777 type-rated airline pilot who happens to be an FAA-certificated Airframe and Powerplant (A&P) mechanic. That’s not to say he’s incorrect at all – it’s just that he’s not a 737 mechanic. He’s learning about the Boeing/Spirit QA fiasco with the rest of us
ETA: To clarify, he does not turn wrenches on big jets. He pilots those. He does turn wrenches on small planes (think Piper Cub) in his off-hours.
Villago Delenda Est
This is what happens when you take control of the company away from engineers and put it in the hands of bean counters. Death and destruction. Because corpses don’t show up on spreadsheets…until the legal process is exhausted.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Boeing used to control and do everything, from start to finish. That Boeing has been MBA’d to death to extract all of the $$$ for the shareholders and executives. My Mom predicted this when she retired from Boeing in the early 90’s. The executive class needs to show more $$$ made every year for the shareholders and they all want their cut of the cash and want more and more of it year after year. They will squeeze the company for everything they can, even if it destroys the reputation they had built over the decades. Planes falling apart isn’t their problem any more, they sold that division to the vulture capitalists.
Damn the safety, more profits ahead!
Just a note: this is going on across America and not just at Boeing.
TBone
@WaterGirl: thank you for that. Tik Tok is also suss IMO after reading about their TOS. It is a great reminder and I thank you for pointing out that we should all beware.
Anyway, the movie No Highway in the Sky is wonderful and just goes to show why scientists and engineers are so very important and that we’ve been through this before, if for different reasons.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ar7sGd4K0vw
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: Thanks! I will definitely check her out.
Nettoyeur
@tokyokie: Guess who controls the Detroit car industry? MBAs, accountants. The big airlines? Ditto. The MBA was a plot by Japanese, French, German companies to wreck US industry. And remember Carly Fiorina , who wrecked HP? BA in medieval history plus MBA. No engineering knowledge at all.
JaySinWA
@WaterGirl: Given T-bone’s reaction it might be a good idea to disarm the .ru link or at least flag it with a warning.
I saw the link earlier and decided against clicking, but it lies in waiting for the unwary late reader.
Neal
Apropos of absolutely nothing, but as a pilot I have flown the 737-300/500, the 757, the 767, the 747-400, and the 777. Add in the DC-10, the Airbus A320, and my Air Force experience and I will tell you that I absolutely detest the 737. A late 1960s design that they keep stretching. I really cannot describe how much I disliked that aircraft.
In the latter variants the approach speeds can be nearly as fast as they were in the AF T-38. That makes for a nice comfy experience going into LaGuardia on a gusty and wet night.
Timill
LaGuardia has always had problems –
Just one of the odder arrivals problems…
RaflW
I’ve been a Leeham News reader for years. Dunno if the purported Boeing employee is for real, but their comments got Leeham’s founder to notice, as well as Dominic Gates, who is a very well respected aviation journalist at the Seattle Times.
My preferred airline, Delta, currently has no Max aircraft in their fleet. They do have lots of 737-900ers, which are now subject to an inspection for their ‘door plug’ integrity. DL has flown these planes 10s of 1000s of times without a blowout, so I take this one step as a bit of extra caution.
But the shitty beancounters who have too much sway at Delta recently ordered 100 copies of the not-yet-certified Max10. I hope to FSM that Boeing has to eat shit and never gets the Max10 certified. Fuck Boeing.
And I say that as someone who has loved flying in their 757s, 767s and especially their 747s. Recently few on a United 787 that had a bunch of ‘speed tape’ (looks like the foil tape you might use to seal leaks on a/c ducts, but much much stickier) on the freaking wings. For a 14 hour trans-pacific flight with 2-3 hour ‘one engine’ diversion times to tiny island runways. I was not pleased.
jonas
@CaseyL: What really did in Boeing was bringing in a bunch of Jack Welch-trained MBA assholes whose priority was squeezing “shareholder value” out of every rivet and weld in their product, rather than, you know, safety and durability.
I remember when Welch was feted as the greatest corporate leader in American history, whereas in reality, he probably did more damage to American management leadership and corporate philosophy than anyone in history. He ran GE into the fucking ground (of course after he’d left with a golden parachute that could cast a shadow over Iowa, leaving everyone else to clean up the mess). Plus he was one of those right-wing oligarchs who would have helped install Hitler if he’d had the chance.
YY_Sima Qian
@Nettoyeur:
@RaflW:
Delta now makes more money from financial services (via its membership miles program & tie-ins w/ AMEX) than from passenger aviation services. That’s another piece of evidence of over-financialization of economy.
Similarly, one sure sign that the real estate bubble in the PRC was getting out of hand & crowding out the real productive economy was when companies were more valuable for the land/properties they owned than the product/services they sold.
jonas
Yep. Speaking of what did in GE under Welch…
Mike G
@RaflW: I had this same experience in November on a 787-8, the wings plastered with speed tape. They say it’s just cosmetic, an issue with paint adhesion to the flexy carbon-fiber wing, but it doesn’t inspire confidence. Airbus has had similar issues with the carbon A350.
docNC
Boeing has normalized deviance in their QA system; its evident on the 787’s they assemble in South Carolina, as well as on the MAX. What a bonehead move to move that program to Charleston (Nikki Haley on the Boeing Board). I’ve been working with BCA for 35 years on advanced manufacturing process development and everything mentioned above with respect to the McD “acquisition” is true in my opinion. The talent drain in Seattle has been significant; what’s important about that is that the people most likely to fight against normalization of deviance have been moved out. They make too much and care too much about safety for the accountants.
Spirit used to be the Boeing-Wichita plant; they were sold off to become Spirit, and walked in the next day to continue doing fuselage component assembly for several platforms. Another bad move if there are that many notations about their quality.
cope
@TBone: A very good movie based on a book by Neville Shute. Shute was an aeronautical engineer and novelist probably best known for On The Beach.
I am old enough to have flown across the Atlantic several times on Lockheed Constellation airliners in the ’50s. They had a rep for dodgy engines and, in fact, flying from Ireland to New York in 1958, our plane had to return to Shannon after losing an engine. I can distinctly remember seeing it feathered and not spinning out on the wing in the night sky. This happened just a few months (weeks?) after a Connie had crashed during takeoff from Shannon killing all 99 on board.
2liberal
http://tinyurl.com/4xkwbjka
RaflW
@Mike G: I asked a deadheading United pilot on my connecting flight SFO-MSP, who had identified himself to another passenger as having just flown Melbourne-SFO, what the deal with the speed tape was.
He said the same, that it’s just a paint adhesion thing, n.b.d. But then I asked him if he was fully comfortable flying the 787. “I fly Triple-Sevens, if that answers your question.”