There’s been a lot of discussion of Biden’s position on the Israel/Gaza conflict in the comments. This Post check-in on the current state of Biden and team’s thinking (gift link) is worth a read:
For now, the White House has rejected calls to withhold military aid to Israel or impose conditions on it, saying that would only embolden Israel’s enemies. But some of Biden’s aides argue that criticizing Netanyahu would allow him to distance himself from an unpopular leader and his scorched-earth policies while reiterating his long-standing support for Israel itself.
Biden’s private frustration with Netanyahu — which has been building for months — was on display Thursday when he said Israel’s military campaign in Gaza has been “over the top,” his sharpest rebuke yet.
The president also spoke in far more detail about Palestinian suffering, as well as the time and energy he has expended trying to get the Israelis and Egyptians to allow more aid into the 25-mile enclave. “A lot of innocent people are starving,” Biden said. “A lot of innocent people are in trouble and they’re dying. And it’s got to stop.”
A particular flash point is Israel’s plan to launch a military campaign in Rafah, the southern most city in Gaza that borders Egypt and has swollen to more than four times its original size. “They’re already living in tents and not getting enough food and water and you’re saying go somewhere else,” said one outside adviser to the White House. “Where? How are they supposed to get there?”
One of the key points of the piece is that Biden’s 40-year relationship with Bibi is a big reason that Biden has been holding back.
In related news, here’s the AP piece on Thursday’s meetings between Arab-American community leaders in Michigan and a White House delegation led by Samantha Powers.
“I relayed the emotions and the concerns of our community, and we gave them tangible steps,” said [State Rep. Abraham] Aiyash, who is also the state’s highest-ranking Arab or Muslim leader. “We want to see a permanent cease-fire. We want to be able to see restrictions and conditions on any military aid that is sent to Israel. And we want to see the United States take a serious commitment towards rebuilding Gaza.”
Aiyash added that “there will not be engagement beyond this if we do not see any tangible changes after this discussion.”
There’s a movement to vote “uncommitted” in the Feb 27 primary to send a message about the community’s dissatisfaction with Biden’s position on Israel. Another community member clearly stated that they have no interest in meeting with Trump who “has done nothing for the community and will continue to do nothing.”
The numbers in Michigan speak for themselves: Clinton lost Michigan by 11K votes in 2016, and Biden won by 154K in 2020. The state has 310K residents of Middle Eastern or North African ancestry, and about half of Dearborn’s 110K residents are Arab or Muslims:
… Wayne County and its large Muslim communities helped Biden retake the state for the Democrats in 2020 by a roughly 154,000-vote margin. Biden enjoyed a roughly 3-to-1 advantage in Dearborn and 5-1 advantage in Hamtramck, and he won Wayne County by more than 330,000 votes.
Barry
“…a White House delegation led by Samantha Powers”
They misspelled ‘duty to protect’ Samantha Powers.
From https://en.wikipedia“.org/wiki/Samantha_Power:
“to the cause of genocide prevention. She won a Pulitzer Prize in 2003 for her book A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide, a study of the U.S. foreign policy response to genocide. She has also been awarded the 2015 Barnard Medal of Distinction[6] and the 2016 Henry A. Kissinger Prize.[7]“
Shalimar
I am 100% all-in for Biden. He has done an extraordinary job, far better than my expectations. And a big part of his ability is the personal relationships he has built over the last 50 years. That said, how does one have a 40-year relationship with Bibi and get absolutely nothing we can see in return over the last 3+ years?
Bibi is allied with Republicans now. He is your enemy. He tells Israelis that every day. Choose your strategy accordingly.
Manyakitty
The ME community there is demanding a cease fire. Super. Just for the Israelis, though, right? That’s utter bullshit. Hamas and its associated parties need to be held to that as well or it’s just another way to kill more Jews.
John S.
@Shalimar:
Some Democrats are taking a really long time in coming around to the reality that the Republicans are a personality cult, and that anyone aligned with the cult is a de facto cultist and should be treated accordingly.
Shalimar
@Barry: What is the Henry A. Kissinger Prize given for? Most civilian casualties in an undeclared war?
$8 blue check mistermix
@Shalimar: And is the Kissinger prize a set of bloody hands encased in clear plastic?
Alison Rose
There is something weird happening on the blog on this page. The post and comments stretch all the way to the right, and the right-side column is beneath the comment box.
Shalimar
@$8 blue check mistermix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage_(David_Baerwald_album)
$8 blue check mistermix
@Alison Rose: Thanks, I think it’s fixed now…
Alison Rose
@$8 blue check mistermix: Thanks! I kept refreshing thinking my browser was being weird, LOL.
p.a.
It’s not “above the fold” on Netanyahu’s priority list (I don’t think), but we all know that maneuvering Biden & Dems between a rock and a hard place isn’t causing him any lost sleep.
m.j.
Why do I feel like Netanyahu is no better than Putin?
Another Scott
@Shalimar:
I think there are a few tangible benefits of Joe and Bibi’s long-running knowledge of each other. NPR.org (from October 19):
Biden demanded from the beginning that aid had to get in, warned Bibi about the wrong lessons from 9/11, and said that he had to protect civilians. And he understands all the domestic political landmines when it comes to Israel, and has tried to find a way to navigate through them.
While a few on our team could do as well, maybe, nobody on the other team would even come close (as we know).
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Alison Rose
@m.j.: He’s maybe one rung above putin on the Shithead Ladder. Near as I can tell, Bibi doesn’t want to take over and control the entirety of the Middle East or the Levant. Whereas putin seems to think “all of Europe should be mine and Imma take it when I want to”.
cain
The latest from Trump. Apparently he is taking credit for Taylor Swifts career because of some law he signed called the Music Modernity Act. 🤔🤔🤔
https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1756734253931401260?t=zk-yXoPlf6nxZB5VmNb7YQ&s=19
trollhattan
Trying to read Bibi based on quotes is similar to doing that with Trump–hard to make sense from their maniacal spluttering. But the right wing goals have never been a mystery.
My current take is the only way to depopulate Rafah is running them out to Egypt, which Egypt is not agreeing to. But, should that occur they are NEVER returning and Israel will instead populate Gaza with settlers after scraping the rubble off to the side. Boy howdy.
gene108
@Shalimar:
It’s very hard for some people to accept someone they’ve known for a long time turns out to be disappointing in someway to outright evil. It involves questioning your own ability to evaluate people and the soundness of your judgement. People are reluctant to do because it undermines their confidence in themselves. If they were this wrong about someone they knew for so long, what else are they wrong about?
***********************
Netanyahu is burning the last bridge he and maybe Israel have regarding international support for years to come. Even if Republicans are in power, their support for Israel is based on a greater hatred of Muslims and/or weird End Times religious beliefs. It isn’t rooted in any actual geopolitical thought about what is effective. It’s not going to be the kind of support that can rebuild Israel’s support amount European and other nations.
It’ll be interesting to see if Biden’s more pragmatic advisers can get through to him regarding how unpopular his support for Israel is and how unjustified it is given what Israel has done.
Alison Rose
@cain: Oh FFS. This is all the damn thing does:
It was signed in October 2018, which is exactly 12 fucking years after her debut album released. God, he is such a fucking toddler.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Shalimar: Looks about right…
cain
@Alison Rose:
The guy is desperate. Taking credit like that.. lol. He isn’t making friends with the Swifties with that kind of commentary.
Surprised he hasn’t come out saying he will destroy NATO and Taylor Swift.
Alison Rose
@cain: It’s just so fucking weird. He has to take credit for everything. Anything that was the least bit good, he has to say “ME ME I DID THAT ME ME”. It’s so fucking pathetic.
Plus, like he even read a single word of the bill when he signed it. Do you think Trump listens to music? I cannot imagine it. Other than his weird dance to the Village People.
Kay
@gene108:
I think someone has been able to convince Biden that the administration rhetoric on Palestinians – up to last week – was stupid and cruel.
Maybe it was VP Harris. Politico said she thought it was a disaster too and told Biden’s team so. She’s tasked with college campus campaigning – when she gets to big schools in the Midwest she’s going to see large groups of protestors.
cain
@gene108: I think Bibi’s plan is to be permanently on war footing so that he can stay in power and not go to jail.
It’s why he is antagonizing everyone around him. War with Iran, War with Hezbollah, Palestinians.. hell if desperate with Saudi Arabia.
cain
@Kay: and she better be ready. Of course, probably a quarter of them are just anarchists looking to attach themselves to something so they can yell at Democrats.
cain
@Alison Rose: pretty sure he can’t raise his hands to do YMCA.
Yes he has to take credit for everything. Including doing hypothetical stuff like comparing himself to the founders.
Roberto el oso
@Alison Rose: His taste in music seems to run to show tunes. Apparently there was some lounge singer/pianist type who was on call (a friend of Hope Hicks, I think) who would be brought in to sing numbers from ‘Cats’ to help calm Trump down when his diaper rash tantrums erupted.
Kay
@Another Scott:
Well, Netanyahu has met exactly zero of those demands since Biden made them in October so I’m not sure that this much ballyhooed relationship is paying off for the United States.
It’s basically been “Biden Administration makes demand, Israel ignores demand the following week”
If there’s some kind of “would ignore more demands with someone else” argument I think they’d probably have to show that.
p.a.
It will NEVER happen, but what would the effect on Israel be if the US cut off all $$$ and weapons transfers? I imagine that Israel’s aim since 1947 has been to be self-sufficient in that regard. Maybe they can’t self-support missile defense, but besides that…?
Kay
@cain:
Oh sure. The Kids Are Alright unless the kids disagree with us on any issue, then they’re bad and dumb.
Yutsano
@Alison Rose: Remember the story about being calmed down by listening to the soundtrack from “Cats’? He doesn’t have any appreciation for the actual musical or its cultural effects. It’s just a musical he attended that he could make about himself so it makes him calmer. I don’t think he actively listens to the soundtrack on his own.
EDIT: Annnd Roberto beat me to it. :P
Alison Rose
@Yutsano: His love for that show is baffling to me. Why Cats???
(To be clear, I loved the play. But I’m at a loss as to why he would.)
dmsilev
@cain: And yet, she spurned him and endorsed Biden in 2020. What perfidy!
dmsilev
@Alison Rose: Figuring out Trump’s psychology and psychoses is, well, the warning about not looking too long into the abyss comes to mind.
Warblewarble
Netanyahu has made it perfectly clear that the killing of Palestinians will continue for as long as it is to his interest and advantage ,regardless of any pious handwringing from Biden or any one else. Six year old Hind Rajab ,who was not a “terrorist” is just one more innocent western powers have betrayed.
Suzanne
@cain:
Some of us — including some of us old people — genuinely think that this war on Gaza is reprehensible and a gross violation of human rights. How would you like us to attempt to influence our government, given that our tax dollars are provided to Israel in furtherance of this effort?
Baud
@cain:
Does that mean MAGA need to blame Trump for Taylor, or that they like Taylor now?
Harrison Wesley
@dmsilev: Not to mention going for Vax Boy instead of Your Favorite President,all hunky 6’3″, 215 lbs of him.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@dmsilev:
For those who care to look into the abyss…
Baud
@Kay:
Having nothing to do with Gaza, I’ve always hated the The Kids Are Alright saying.
It’s infantilizing and pandering.
Black people are stronger Dems than young people, but no one would think to saying The Blacks are Alright.
Baud
Via Reddit, Texas Republicans care so much about the babies.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Another Scott: I think we’ll find out just how much good maintaining the Bibi/Biden relationship has done us when the Biden administration shifts from talk to action. If we make aid to Israel contingent on anything Bibi doesn’t want to do (or that he perceives might hinder his quest to stay out of jail), I think Bibi will work his Republican friends into a frenzy against Biden. But we’ll see.
Another Scott
@Kay: Maybe.
TimesofIsrael.com (from December 1):
The coming days and weeks will tell.
I’m reminded that within the first few weeks or so of the war someone in the Israeli government said something like (very roughly) “we have to take the US demands seriously because they guarantee our security”. I have no doubt that things would have been much, much worse for Gaza if Biden and Blinken and all the rest in the administration weren’t pushing as hard as they have been. Yes, small comfort… :-(
YMMV.
Cheers,
Scott.
Quadrillipede
Forget it, Jake — it’s Dementiatown…
Kay
@Another Scott:
They were blocking humanitarian aid just yesterday. I just don’t think it’s a good argument – the counterfactual of how Not Biden would do. We’re going to end up arguing that 25,000 dead civilians is better than a hypothetical, I don’t know, 50,000 under Not Biden?
It’s bad and part of the pushback from Arab Americans in Michigan was their perception that the Biden Administration would not admit that it’s very, very bad. I think we can argue that the Israeli government prefers Trump over Biden (true) and that they are probably either working or planning on working to beat Biden – that may be persuasive to our voters, but I don’t think we should use “more would be dead with someone else”. That will be perceived as minimizing Palestinian losses.
p.a.
USG: stop it or our brows will furrow even more. Please?
Gretchen
@Kay: yes, this. Biden is so famously empathetic, I don’t understand why he hasn’t been showing empathy to all those dead Palestinian children. It would have been so easy to lament both the Israeli and Palestinian casualties, rather than being so one-sided. Netanyahu openly wants Trump to win, and anything he can do to hurt Biden’s chances is gravy in his mind. And he knows he’s going to get kicked out as soon as the war is over.
Kay
@Another Scott:
i just hope we don’t start talking about “Blinken units”. They seem to have been counting on “weeks” for months now, and no end in sight.
pajaro
On Friday, the Biden Administration issued a directive requiring all aid receipients to provide “credible and reliable written assurances” of the receipients adherence to international law. This comes as there is considerable pressure from countries in Europe and the Middle East, and particularly Egypt, to get Israel to refrain from attacking Rafah, where many or most of the Palestinians in Gaza are living in tent cities. The Israel government’s possible plan is to require those people to move, yet again, to a location several miles away–the location is six square miles. The attempted housing of hundreds of thousands of people in that small an area would be catastrophic. There have already been letters written by a number of Congressional Democrats urging Biden to demand a pause in fighting so aid can be delivered to Palestinians and a humanitarian crisis be avoided. Israel’s action, if it comes, will be condemned by most of the world. I have no doubt there will be calls in the UN to demand a ceasefire, and, if it comes, we I would hope many of us will urge Biden not to have Israel’s back. Israel’s action, if it comes, would almost surely also be considered a violation of the preliminary order already issued by the International Court of Justice. If Israel goes forward, it will end any chances of normalization with Arab governments. In my opinion, this is a real political crisis, as well as an obvious humanitarian crisis. Bibi is leading his country into hell–I hope Biden can succeed in convincing him (as he surely trying) not to enter.
Kay
@Gretchen:
I don’t understand it either. I don’t understand listening to or reading his statements and not seeing how he is clearly treating two groups of civilians differently.I’m not Arab American and I don’t follow this issue closely and it was clear as a bell to me that it was inequitable. I cringed.
From that Biden’s Araba American supporters perceived that the Biden Administration did not value Palestinian lives as highly as Israeli lives, and were profoundly and deeply offended. And that is understandable. I don’t care what Bidens persoal opinion of Palestinians is at this point- I’ll never know- I just want him to fix his administration’s ham handed bungling of this because it’s important he win for the country.
Kay
@pajaro:
Rafah worries me too. Thank you for the additional explanation.
karen gail
I just finished reading an interesting article: Western narcissism and support for genocidal Israel go hand in hand (msn.com)
One history professor often used Samuel Huntington as someone every student of history should read; for years I would attended lectures at local University, it would never fail to rile people up to even mention that US’s history was one of genocide.
Eunicecycle
While visiting my son and family I became acquainted with their neighbors, a young Palestinian couple. He was born in New Jersey but she is from Gaza. They were excited to go there last fall to show off their new baby but cannot go now of course. Her family lived in northern Gaza but are now in Rafah. Her parents are in their late 70s with health problems and can’t get their medications. They are living with 18 other family members in a tent and are often wet and cold. One of her nephews has a piece of shrapnel in his head and can’t get the surgery to get it removed. They spend most days just trying to get food. I can’t say much more because I may let my rage get the better of me. But as much as I love Joe Biden I feel like he has to DO SOMETHING FOR GOD’S SAKE! These are people just trying to live their lives! I know Hamas started it but these people didn’t!
Jinchi
I agree. Biden is president. People in Gaza are living with the decisions we make today, not a hypothetical Trump presidency. I don’t have a personal connection to Gaza, but even I was horrified at the early public statements during this war, particularly by Blinken, when the civilian death count was soaring into the tens of thousands.
It was obvious from the start that Netanyahu and the Likud government don’t see a difference between Hamas and the Palestinian people and that their preferred strategy would end in mass slaughter. It was incumbent on the American government to make that difference clear, repeatedly and publicly. They really should have figured out how to express support for the defense of both the Israeli and Palestinian people by now.
pajaro
@Kay:
you’re welcome. I forgot to add that Egypt has told Israel that if it attacks Rafah, Egypt will cancel the Camp David treaty, which has been in effect for more than 45 years.
Jackie
@cain: TIFG just can’t stand or stomach the knowledge she’s a TRUE BILLIONAIRE and she’s WAY MORE Beloved WORLDWIDE than he is and ever will be.
He’s truly pathetic with his neediness. 🤮
Redshift
@trollhattan:
Genocidal far-right members of Netanyahu’s cabinet have explicitly stated that is their goal.
Lapassionara
@pajaro: as I understand it, Egypt has threatened to withdraw from its treaty with Israel if it attacks Rafah.
this is madness. How will Israel ever know that it has “destroyed Hamas”? The leaders of Hamas are not even in Gaza.
Brachiator
@Alison Rose:
This is typical of Trump. And some of his cult will believe that he helped her.
I just have to do what I can to ignore his nonsense.
Another Scott
@Kay:
I’ve been hearing Biden decrying the Palestinian deaths and all the destruction from the beginning. Transcript of his October 20 White House address is pretty clear to these eyes.
I’ve said earlier that everyone knows that the USA will not allow Israel to be in any real danger from the outside. We are committed to the defense and survival of Israel. Few things are less persuasive than noisy empty threats. If Biden did cut off arms shipments to Israel – 1) The GQP and the press would go nuts, endangering his re-election and future Democratic majorities, 2) Bad actors in the region would see even more of an opportunity for mischief, and as soon as they acted against Israel in a serious way we’d be on the hook for even more arms and support, but starting from a worse position.
Plus, we have treaty obligations with Israel and the Whataboutists would love nothing better than to point to (yet another) instance of the US not being dependable and not keeping its word.
If this stuff were easy, it would be a festering problem for 75+ years.
:-(
Bottom line – Bibi and his minions are going to do what they’re going to do. We have little real influence on the ultimate course of the war. All we can do is persuasion, and that happens best in the background. But nobody should doubt Biden’s commitments to helping the innocents.
(Yeah, I thought of Friedman-units when I wrote that comment above, but left it in. ;-)
My $0.02. FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Suzanne
@Jinchi:
The cynic in me thinks that it’s an election year and Biden doesn’t want to alienate Jewish voters.
The 1980-baby in me looks at Biden — who is almost as old as my grandparents would be if they were still living — and fears that he has some of their same prejudices, which included a broad streak of anti-Arab and anti-Islam feeling. Because what is happening is absolutely indefensible.
Jackie
I am playing catch-up, so has this been mentioned?
trollhattan
@Lapassionara: Oh, you know, the usual way: Hamas deletes their Facebook and Twitter accounts. “We done here.”
Betty Cracker
There are new developments today, according to HuffPo. Biden spoke to Netanyahu, who spoke to Fox News:
Hamas embeds with the civilian population, so I’m not sure why Hamas wouldn’t just evacuate along with civilians if Israel invades Rafah? Isn’t that what’s been happening all along?
I assume Netanyahu will ignore Biden’s cautions as he has all along. I don’t have a sense of Israeli public opinion on the conduct of the war. I think Netanyahu is counting on the public to support the harshest measures, even if they want Netanyahu himself to go away.
Jinchi
Honestly, I cringed early on, when Biden referred to the October 7th attacks as equivalent to ‘fifteen 911’s’: echoing an entirely unnecessary comparison made by Netanyahu, that implicitly suggests Israeli lives are worth more than others (even Americans).
And that was before the Israeli response, which has now literally killed about fifteen times as many Palestinians.
Kirk
@p.a.:
High on the list would likely be an answer to the persistent question of whether or not Israel has nuclear weapons.
Manyakitty
@Betty Cracker: my loathing for Bibi knows no bounds. He will be responsible for the end of Israel at this point. Grotesque and vile in the extreme.
lowtechcyclist
@Manyakitty:
We should not hold hostage to Hamas what relief we can provide to the Palestinians of the West Bank. Hamas doesn’t give a damn about their lives either.
Equating Israel and Hamas is what’s bullshit. Israel is a modern nation with an advanced and capable military, and it’s been able to wreak devastation on the people of Gaza because Hamas can’t do much to stop it without getting killed off themselves.
If Israel was really focused on Hamas, they’d have surely found a way to seriously damage Hamas without killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians and taking hundreds of thousands of them to the brink of starvation. They’ve got some of the best intelligence agencies and special forces on the planet.
What’s going on in Gaza is a humanitarian disaster well beyond Hamas’ ability to inflict. (They needed Bibi’s help to be able to do the October 7th massacre – they couldn’t have done that by themselves.) First thing is to stop that disaster from continuing. Hamas can be dealt with after. That’ll probably be easier anyway when Bibi’s not part of the Israeli government, he’s their best ally.
karen gail
When I first heard or read the question of why didn’t Mossad either know or do something about the attack; I was strongly remind of when the US government admitted that they knew ahead of time that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor but the government needed an excuse to declare war and become involved. Without the deaths and destruction at Pearl Harbor the public would not commit to going to war nor been given the excuse to send young men off to die or gear up factories. Nor was the government going to admit until years after the fact that there was no need to drop atomic bombs on two Japanese cities. (A number of people wrote years later that the attitude was “we built them, we need to use them.”)
We can see that the Israeli government is using the excuse of deaths of 364 music festival attendees as a rally cry that has lead to at least 27,000 civilian Palestinas dying. Bibi is not shying away from saying he wants all the Palestine people dead or gone from their own lands.
Starfish
Doctors without Borders has been covering what is going on in Gaza, and it seems bad.
The whole raiding a hospital thing does not look great.
How many hospitals did Gaza have? How many are still operational?
karen gail
@lowtechcyclist: More than one piece has been written about how Bibi needed that attacks on innocents to rally the support to commit the genocide he has long preached.
Baud
@karen gail:
Pretty sure that’s fiction. May even be right wing fiction.
Barry
@Shalimar: “What is the Henry A. Kissinger Prize given for? Most civilian casualties in an undeclared war?”
Probably.
Another Scott
@karen gail:
The problem with conspiracy theories is that explaining them requires an even bigger conspiracy, and it never ends.
NSA.gov on one of the Pearl Harbor conspiracy books (26 page .pdf).
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
trollhattan
@karen gail:
Those assholes were warned, by their own people and by Egypt. This Hebrew edition of “At Dawn We Slept” really sucks.
lowtechcyclist
@Jackie:
I don’t expect to have it be the lede, since most people don’t know or care about legislative procedure, but I wish they’d say somewhere down towards the bottom of the article just what ‘advance’ resulted from this vote. This is at least the second ‘advance’ this bill has had.
Miss Bianca
@karen gail: Really? The US Government “admitted” that? I highly doubt it. Extraordinary assertions require extraordinary evidence. Can you produce it?
HumboldtBlue
How many of the Arab nations that surround Gaza have made commitments to stop the war, help the Palestinian refugees and are willing to help rebuild Gaza if a peaceful solution can be found? Not a fucking one.
Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria have all attacked Israel at least twice and none of those countries will lift a finger to help the suffering Gazans now. Amazing how it’s only the US that is responsible for the fucking region. Those nations don’t want to help because a war-torn Gaza is easy to blame on Israel and allows them the room to continue to ignore their responsibilities.
Fuck it, it’s a beautiful day, why the fuck am I worrying about shit I have no control over.
Starfish
@trollhattan:
Yup. The whole thing about how women soldiers were ignored when they tried to tell people about their concerns is not a good way to run a military.
Eyeroller
@Baud: It is a myth. They *did* know or strongly suspect that the Japanese would ramp up their military activities, but they were thinking it would be Malaysia and the Philippines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theory
sab
@Shalimar: Bibi has always been allied with Republicans. Back in the 1990s after the first Gulf war, Israelis I knew used to laugh that Bibi had to hold his meetings in English because so many of the participants were American Republican operatives.
Marcopolo
@karen gail: no. no. no. you are repeating a conspiracy theory in regards to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
i understand that the human brain searches for ways to make sense out of shockingly unexpected events (typically horrific ones that involve the loss of human life, see 9/11 truthers). this is the root of so many conspiracy theories. how about we just agree that a lot of bad things happen much more often due to human stupidity, lack of paying attention, and yeah, sometimes chance than malice aforethought. the idea the Israeli intelligence services/military allowed the hamas attack on 10/7/23 is intended to blame shift responsibility for it from hamas to Israel (cause, you know, the Israelis let it happen so they had an excuse to do what they are doing now). honestly, it’s bad enough that the Israeli intelligence/military was blindsided by the attack. they are responsible for not effectively protecting their citizens (and Bibi bears extra responsibility for other reasons like promoting & funding hamas), but the attack & all those deaths/murders are on hamas.
Redshift
@gene108:
I think there’s an important distinction between knowing someone and being friends with them. I very much doubt Biden harbored any illusions about Netanyahu not being a terrible person – a big chunk of that forty years of the Obama and Trump administrations, when Netanyahu was obviously terrible. The value of a relationship in international relations is about knowing who you’re dealing with and just as important, about them understanding who they’re dealing with on our side.
I also suspect that Netanyahu is calculating that any cutoff of military aid won’t last beyond this war, and he has enough arms for this war, so it’s questionable how much pressure it would apply. And at the same time, electorally it would be playing with fire to assume that Jewish Democrats, no matter how much they don’t like Netanyahu, would see a cutoff as only a rebuke to Netanyahu and not a serious policy shift toward Israel.
All of which is to say the this is a minefield both internationally and domestically, and while I’m sure the administration could have done better, arguments that there’s an obvious way they could have done better are probably failing to account for some opposing factor.
Lyrebird
@HumboldtBlue:
No answers, just sending appreciation your way. I hope you did get outside.
@Redshift: I also figure Biden has harbored no illusions re: Netan., thank you for putting it so lucidly.
Biden having a longstanding working relationship with McConnell and Manchin has made some goo dthings possible that would not have been , but does not make everything possible.
I see this in a similar light. Maybe it helps some reductions in awfulness. Doesn’t go as far as we might wish.
karen gail
@Baud: There were reports of the attack fleet headed from Japan east, the Philippians was warned but not Hawaii. FDR believed that sanctions would work against the Japanese; sanctions never work to do much more than anger people even more.
Japan had declared war in 1937 with China and US felt safe; as more than one historian has pointed out we never know the truth behind what US knew or didn’t know because Japan lost the war and winners write history.
japa21
@karen gail: So you admit your statement the US knew about the attack before it occurred was not correct. Thank you.
karen gail
I will admit that I am wrong on official admittance of wrong by US government over Pearl Harbor; I should have remembered that what I heard from retired military personal isn’t the same as government admitting wrong.
I was and am willing to believe that US government is willing to “sacrifice” people to justify deaths; it is part of the very foundation of this country. And it is part of the justification of colonization.
Warblewarble
The deaths of Israeli’s on 7th Oct. are on Hamas. The deaths of Palestinian’s in what they have been herded into as “safe” areas or evacuation corridors are the result of Israel’s choice’s. Six year old Hind Rajab could not have been allowed to live ,to tell of how the car she was travelling with her relatives was shot up. Her death is as much murder as the killing of George Floyd. Say her name HIND RAJAB.
raven
@karen gail: Read At Dawn We Slept.
Manyakitty
@HumboldtBlue: THIS.
Look, NOBODY DECENT WANTS INNOCENT PEOPLE TO SUFFER. The Gazans are victims of people who literally don’t care about them (Hamas). They have a right to exist and live their lives in peace.
Israelis face a similar threat from Hamas and also have a right to exist and live their lives in peace.
Further, Bibi is garbage and should spend the rest of his miserable life rotting in prison.
Other than the Biden administration, who else is standing up for the Palestinians at all? Maybe Jordan. Maybe. Nobody else seems to care about the hostages any more, either.
Pardon my incomplete, possibly incoherent thoughts. This is a deeply personal situation for me and there is no good answer.
raven
Motherfuckers all up in arms about Taylor. I’m sure he’s great but I have no clue about any Usher music.
New Deal democrat
@Baud: As others have already replied, it is a myth. Historian Gordon Prange exhaustively destroyed the myth in “At Dawn We Slept.”
in addition to things others have already mentioned, the commanders in Hawaii got not one but *2* “WAR WARNINGS,” as did other commanders as far afield as the Panama Canal.
And the final proof that it was negligence, not conspiracy, is that despite receiving the same warnings, and despite the fact that he was aware that the Pearl Harbor attack had already occurred, 24 hours later Douglas MacArthur was *still* caught completely flat footed in the Philippines.
trollhattan
@raven:
I know Usher will have everybody seated and paying attention.
TBone
Troll comment at another site just now:
“President Trump has boxed in Taylor Swift today. She cannot endorse Biden now without looking like this was all planned months ago. This is what 3 dimensional chess looks like.”
Response (not mine, I don’t feed ’em):
“NOBODY PUTS TAE-TAE IN A CORNER!”
Starfish
@Manyakitty:
The South Africans stood up for the Gazans.
The UNRWA stuff is a complete mess. Gazans can’t get aid now because Israel said the organization providing aid was tied to Hamas so now people are going to starve. Al Jazeera is the only place listing the countries that are halting aid.
Geminid
@HumboldtBlue: The UAE, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have been trying to help resolve this war from the beginning. Their top intelligence officials were in Qatar this weekend, trying to persuade Hamas leaders there to get their forces in Gaza to surrender on terms or at least assent to a ceasefire.
CIA Director William Burns will be in the region soon and he will be talking to his Saudi and Egyptian counterparts. Burns, the Egyptian spy chief and Israel’s Mossad head are the ones who put together the ceasefire proposal that Qatar is trying to broker right now.
These nations are also coordinating a common policy for the post-war period, along with Jordan and the Palestinian Authority. From the reports I saw, they have worked up a fairly practical proposal that could be a good template.
The Arab Gulf States have also pledged to help in reconstructing the Gaza Strip, but not if Hamas is still in charge. They regard Hamas as a very dangerous organization, which Hamas is in its own right and also is an ally of the Iranian regime. Plus, the Arabs saw Western countries let Hamas steal so many billions of aid money, and they won’t repeat that mistake.
Baud
@TBone:
LGM?
trollhattan
Wow, host Ivory Coast leads Nigeria 2-1 going into 2nd half extra time in the Cup of National final. That’s a lot of dragon-slaying.
Another Scott
Defense.gov – SecDef Austin is back in the hospital, with a bladder issue.
They did the prompt notification things correctly this time, it appears.
Cheers,
Scott.
Alison Rose
@trollhattan: Cote d’Ivoire is a pretty strong team, generally, and not ranked too far below Nigeria. Plus, Nigeria has fallen in the rankings over the past couple of years, while CIV has mostly risen.
TBone
@Baud: nope! Since I lifted it I can’t divulge but the troll is a regular. I DK why people feed it except maybe ez entertainment.
Ohio Mom
@Manyakitty: Your thoughts sound coherent and complete to me. Maybe because they are the same as mine. (Although maybe my thoughts are incoherent and incomplete too.)
I am operating on the assumption that Biden is doing whatever he can to defuse everything, that he doesn’t want this war and this suffering, even if it didn’t run the risk of screwing up his re-election.
trollhattan
@Alison Rose:
At 27M they’re tiny, nearly got knocked out in the opening round, then bossed the joint. What an accomplishment! Today was a comeback after 0-1 in the first half.
Scout211
In other news, Trump just cannot let anyone get more attention than he does.
He said today that “there’s no way” that Taylor Swift will endorse Biden.
OMFG. What an idiot.
raven
@trollhattan: We went to a Georgia Tech-Virginia Tech game in Atlanta and Big Boi was the halftime show. We were the ONLY people in the joint that had no clue!!! (And Ludacris is from Champaign)!!
Manyakitty
@Ohio Mom: thank you–it means a lot. Everything is just so awful.
AWOL
@karen gail: citation?
Steve in the ATL
@raven: we used to run into him at the Whole Foods down the street. Kids used to trick or treat at his house. He was always a pretty nice guy.
Ivan X
@Ohio Mom: I’m with you, Ohio Mom (and others who have expressed similar sentiments).
I’m coming to the unhappy conclusion that nobody can see this situation objectively — not us Jews, not Arabs, not Muslims, not others. It’s so personal and emotionally loaded that there’s really no way to be coherent about it. And I am no longer at the point where I expect anyone to be able to understand what my experience of it is as a Jewish person.
I just know that I won’t have a conversation with anyone about it, regardless of where they stand, if they’re not willing to acknowledge the grievances and legitimate claims of both parties here, and look honestly at where one’s preferred side has done their worst. That is not to create a false equivalence, but there is a lot of suffering here, and I can’t talk with someone who won’t acknowledge that.
It also doesn’t help that Bibi is scum. (But Bibi didn’t rise to power in a vacuum, either. Still, can we get rid of the fucker.)
Geminid
@New Deal democrat: Pearl Harbor: Final Verdict (1994) by Henry Clausen is another good book on this subject. Clausen was empowered by Secretary of War Stimson in 1944 to conduct a thorough investigation of military communications in the weeks and days up to the attack.
One of the issues Stimson wanted to look into was handling of highly classified decrypts of Japanese “Purple” diplomatic comms. So Clausen was “read in” to the program and provided copies to show witnesses who were also read in. He carried them to winesses spread across the Pacific and European theatres in a courier’s “bomb pouch,” a vest with a built-in magnesium flare.
Clausen interviewed over 100 hundred enlisted men and officers and produced a 600 page report. He testified about the report at a 1946 Congressional hearing. Then he went back to his law practice in San Francisco, and towards the end of his life he wrote about his investigation in Final Verdict. It’s a fascinating and informative book.
Dan B
@Manyakitty: Bibi’s wanting to avoid jail plus his unbridled hatred of Palestinians could doom Israel as a refuge. It’s another horror for Jews and people who love democracy.
Jay
@Marcopolo:
The IDF and the various Intelligence Agencies had watched Hamas rehearse their attack for months.
In response senior Military and Political leadership took the position that “Hamas will never try, they are outmatched”.
Instead they pulled the IDF Forces from the Gazan Border and sent them to aid the settlers eviction of Palestinians in the West Bank.
The first casualties of the Hamas terrorist attack were the IDF “watchers”, mostly women, who had been warning about the coming attack for months but were ignored. Even as their watchtowers were being blown up, walls were being toppled and they were being raped, mutilated and killed, they were still ignored.
New Deal democrat
@Geminid: Thanks. I think I read that book as well, although I don’t specifically recall, and I am at the moment away from my library at an undisclosed tropical location waiting on a bourbon. :)
Gretchen
I’m not as old as Biden, but I’m old enough that most of the dads of kids my age were veterans with WWII stories. I personally knew survivors of the Nazis, and when I saw a crippled person my parent’s age, I assumed the Nazis did it. (Detroit was a destination of choice for many refugees because they could make a living in the auto factories without facility in English). My own dad was one of the first liberators to a concentration camp. So I have a visceral understanding of why the Jews need their own homeland, and I assume Biden starts from the same place. But that doesn’t excuse the terrible toll they’ve taken on innocents in Gaza, and I hope that Biden can hold his historical appreciation for a Jewish state with a new appreciation for why the Palestinians also urgently need saving and a path to their own state. I wish the famous Biden empathy would kick in.
Kay
@Another Scott:
Biden’s aides went to Michigan and offered a full apology for the administration’s public statements up until last week, so I don’t think it’s a question anymore whether the comments and statements were even handed. They weren’t. That’s why they said they were “inexcusable”, caused “damage” and wouldn’t be repeated. They’re no longer defending it – I don’t know why I would.
“
Gretchen
@Dan B: Yes, this. After the Hamas attacks the whole world was outraged and sympathetic to Israel. And Israel’s response managed to destroy that sympathy and become seen as the bad guys. Idiotic.
Steve in the ATL
@Gretchen: much like the world’s attitude toward the US after 9/11and then after the Bush response to it. Turned on us right quick, and rightfully so, and all the fault of the right.
Gretchen
@Steve in the ATL: Yes, and didn’t Biden or Blinkin tell the Israelis right after the attack not to make the same mistake as we did after 9/11? That gave me hope, since dashed, that we would be able to influence them.
Manyakitty
@Dan B: absolutely.
Bibi gets no pass and zero benefit of the doubt.
YY_Sima Qian
The me, the most damning part of the WaPo article is the following (emphasis mine):
It aligns w/ reporting by other media organizations on Biden’s views toward Israel over the past couple of months. I am sure Biden is not callous toward the Gaza civilians and genuinely wants to help their situation. However, his giant blind spot wrt Israel foreclosed policy choices, leading to bad policy formulation, bad policy outcomes, & bad politics.
The bolded part is inexcusable for someone w/ Biden’s responsibilities, & reinforces Bibi’s cynical plan for survival. It’s been pretty clear from the reporting over the past month that Administration officials are mostly beyond fed up w/ the current Israeli government & its conduct in Gaza, & can fully appreciate the damage that US policy is doing to US credibility & reputation. However, the main impediment to a speedy course correction has in fact been Biden himself.
strange visitor (from another planet)
blows my fucking mind that every five minutes we red-sea pedestrians are accused of having dual loyalties, being (((globalists))) and here we are blithely talking about how arab-americans are gonna nosedive the country into fascism if they don’t get stroked to their specifications with the special lube so they get their happy ending.
FFS.
give me a fucking break.
manyakitty, ohiomom, allison rose, ivan x-i’m feelin’ it.
Darkrose
@Jinchi: I also remember Biden saying to Netanyahu, “Don’t make the same mistake the US did after 9/11” and attack people who weren’t responsible for the atrocity.
Alison Rose
@Ivan X: ✅
Marcopolo
@Jay: um, so still blindsided. by their own stupidity.
Ryan
The US ought to start holding back on its vetoes at the UN.
Geminid
@Ryan: The US did hold back on the last Security Council resolution in December, and abstained instead of vetoing it. That was after we succeeded in modifying it to make a good template for a durable ceasefire.
Darkrose
@Gretchen: Since October 7th, Biden has repeatedly advocated for a two-state solution, with the Palestinian Authority being brought into the loop. Bibi has categorically refused to consider a Palestinian state, but the failure to create one is apparently all on Biden because only the US has agency.
New Deal democrat
@YY_Sima Qian: I know this is a dead thread, but I hope you will see this (also I am 3 bourbons in).
Once … * Just Once* I would like to see the US kick Israel in the balls. It would be marvelously elucidating.
Gretchen
@Darkrose: yes, just like only Democrats and not Republicans have any agency here.
Geminid
@Darkrose: This war has to be ended, and it will likely be ended without agreement on a two-state resolution to the larger problem. Responsible actors are trying to use a ceasefire ending the Gaza war to create the conditions for a Palestinian state, to be established by the end of this decade. I would not discount that possibility because it is everyone’s fundamental interests.
But nothing can be done without a ceasefire, so I am watching the Qatari initiative because that is the most viable path to ending the bloodshed, misery and instability people and the region suffer from now.
YY_Sima Qian
@New Deal democrat: Must be good bourbon!
The US has twisted Israel’s arms in the past, Eisenhower during the Suez Crisis, Reagan in response Operation Opera, GHWB in response to WB settlements.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: A permanent ceasefire is indeed the necessary 1st step. The challenge will be how to leverage the current moment of regional urgency to to decisively move toward a long term solution. If not 2SS, then a 1SS that does not involve Apartheid or ethnic cleansing. There is risk that once Gaza fades from the headlines & global scrutiny is no longer there, things settle back to an ultimately unsustainable false equilibrium. I am sure that is what the Israeli right wing is counting on, & that would only serve the interests of the Israeli right wing, Iran, Hezbollah & Hamas.
Chris
@Darkrose:
Oh God! It’s so unfair! How could anyone possibly expect the U.S. to exert any influence on this situation? It’s only Israel’s primary arms supplier and its only reliable defender at the UN! Clearly anyone who thinks it might be doing more is just a crazed anti-American fanatic who thinks only the U.S. has agency! I’ll have you know that the U.S. has been asking very nicely for Bibi to behave a little better while it continued to cram weapons down his throat for four months straight! Very nicely! My God, what more do people want? It’s almost like they think the U.S. has any agency at all! It’s just so unfair!
Paul in KY
@Kirk: They do.
Paul in KY
@Darkrose: That is sorta funny, as Netanyahoo was all in on the chicanery that occurred post-911. The pivot to Iraq was all about taking care of an Israeli Likud enemy.