Ruh roh. Byron York shows his inner defeatist:
For many of us, the war was supposed to be about U.S. national security and only about U.S. national security. It would be nice if we could make Iraq a better place, just as it would be nice if we could make Afghanistan a better place, but that was never a sufficient reason to go to war. The reason to go to war was to find and kill every last son of a bitch who had anything to do with 9/11. And that job was not the main focus in Iraq, and in any event is unfortunately not finished.
One of the main reasons John McCain is facing such an tough job today is that we are now in the sixth year of a war that the president of his own party started by mistake. That’s a major headwind when you’re running for president; an error of that magnitude will exact a political price. Would anyone be surprised if voters say that they’ve had enough?
Is that the first time someone at the NRO has stated, without mincing words, that the Iraq war was a “mistake?” I thought that only defeatocrats and terrorist enablers felt that way (as well as the majority of the population).
As the right-wing pundits begin to realize what a horrible drag the Iraq War will be on their 2008 electoral chances, expect the rhetoric to continue to shift from “It was the right thing to do all along” to “Of course it was a mistake, everyone agrees it was a mistake by that idiot Bush, no one has ever argued otherwise, but now that we are there we have to WIN! (ponies ponies ponies!).”
Meanwhile, I will leave it to the rocket scientists at the NRO and elsewhere to perform this rhetorical shift all the while attempting to maintain the other rhetorical front in which they must attempt to convincingly argue that the war in Iraq has “made us safer.”
Good luck with that, sophists everywhere.
*** Update ***
Tim IM’s Derbyshire may have also called it a mistake (another reader reminds me Derb was against the war from the beginning, so that doesn’t count).
Incertus
The core of their political base includes people who believe God put fossilized dinosaur bones in the ground to test their faith. The Iraq rhetorical shift is a piece of cake.
ThymeZone
The rhtoeric shifted over the weekend.
McCain’s Memorial Day message to you and the troops.
Dear troops, we are sick and tired of the war. But don’t worry, we are not going to stop fighting it, your job over there is secure.
Dear citizens, I know you are sick and tired of the war, and to earn your vote, I pledge to keep it going for you.
Please mark Memorial Day on your calendar as the point at which John McCain really lost the upcoming general election.
Most Americans hate the war, and a guy is running for president promising not to end it.
Feel the magic.
El Cid
Well, invading & occupying Iraq sure was the “right” decision for the Republitards when it helped puff up dumbass junior’s post-9/11 ratings and thrilled all the basement monkeys will thrilling fantasies of killin’ Ay-rabbs and when it helped him narrowly beat John Kerry (maybe) with the “i dunt no if u kin chanj horsis in a streem” crowd.
It’s only a “mistake” to these freaktards now ’cause it’s unpopular.
Just like Bush Jr. for a while was the reincarnation of Ronald Reagan for a while there, and they all crowned him Ronald Reagan II, until suddenly things started going to sh*t and then all of a sudden they try the ‘he ain’t no damn reel kunservativ no damn way, never wuz, he ‘uz always a librul’ sh*t.
demimondian
Actually, TZ, McSame struck his first solid body blow yesterday — he raised, for the first time, the fact the Obama hasn’t every served in combat. That’s a charge which will stick and work.
attaturk
I believe Derbyshire long ago called the war a mistake.
Much like his look but don’t touch policy on prepubescent girls.
Tlazolteotl
The quote was “started by mistake.”
Which is wrong, and dishonest. It was a mistake, but it was started very much on purpose. So I don’t know why you are praising this particular villager for ‘coming around’ – he continues to lie to make himself feel better and avoid thinking about his own enabling.
ThymeZone
No, it won’t. McCain is the worst candidate for president I’ve ever seen and I have seen some turkeys. Dole and Goldwater will look like dream candidates next to this guy.
He’s not popular, his positions are not popular, he doesn’t present well. He doesn’t make good speeches. He thinks Sunni is a breakfast fruit drink. He is a liar, he is beholden to every special interest in Washington, he leeches off the lobbyists, he hasn’t had an idea in 50 years, and can’t remember the one he had 50 years ago.
The Obama-Webb Dream Ticket will crush this guy like a maggot. Be strong, it’s going to be a good year.
El Cid
Obama may not have served in combat, but neither has he personally helped destroy an entire sector of the U.S. banking system for corrupt intent. McCain did. Remember that?
Of course, thankfully serving in combat is not a requirement for cowardly Republican warhawks, who are perfectly happy nestling in Dick Cheney’s pants as he talks about “the dark side” from his repeated deferments.
If America is stupid enough to want to be persuaded to vote for McCain, then that’s obviously what they want, and when their country after another 4 years of Republican rule is crumbling faster in front of them, I’ll make sure and tell ’em to shut the hell up, because that is just what they wanted and voted for.
jake
Uh-huh. Over time they’ll all admit that they weren’t that crazy about the idea of going to war in the first place and really, George Bush was a stealth liberul so it’s all the liberuls fault and no way will they be fooled again.
Or Yorkie will be stripped of his Brown Squirt badges and driven from the herd for apostasy [sic?].
Either way I don’t have much – make that any – time for someone who takes six years to realize le cluster est tres fooked.
ThymeZone
Oh, and McCain is here in Phoenix holding a fundraiser behind closed doors at a private home … because they had to shut down and cancel the big-arena version they had scheduled. McCain wants the Bush money but he doesn’t want to be seen with the guy. He is running against his own party’s president and trying to grab his 28% coattails at the same time.
You have not yet seen the depths of desperation these people are going to show before this is over.
Liberal Mick
No wonder we’ve been in there for so long. Those pesky Iraqi 9/11 conspirators are harder to find than WMDs.
Glocksman
Like it worked in 1992, 1996, and 2000?
Someone tell President Dole.
David Hunt
No shift is needed at all. We have always been at war with EastAsia
ThymeZone
Win.
Barbara
Yeah, and don’t forget about GHW Bush’s second term, which never would have happened if Clinton hadn’t been a draft dodger . . . Also, his prior combat service was a determinative factor in President Kerry’s election . . .
cleek
yeah, Bush started the war all by himself… with no help from the conservative media.
on the other hand, nearly every one of York’s first 20 or so columns from 2003 were about Miguel Estrada and judicial appointments. he doesn’t have a thing to say about Iraq until June, and then it’s to smirk at people who were saying Bush “lied”.
too bad York, unlike some of us, didn’t see that the war was a “mistake” back when it could’ve made a difference for him to say so.
protected static
Once more with feeling… To repeat Tlazolteotl’s point, some of y’all are missing an important distinction – there’s a difference between saying that the war “was a mistake” and saying that “it was started by mistake.”
The first may indicate culpability, remorse, guilt, or some such recognition of failure or horror or what have you; the latter only indicates mendacity.
smiley
OT: Rush’s new spew is that Obama is a result of affirmative action. Race bait much?
JGabriel
Byron York:
Sadly, no.
The war was started on purpose for spurious reasons. Whether it was to fulfill the neocon wet dreams of PNAC, to control the oil market, or to revenge alleged attempts by Hussein to kill Bush’s father (a claim since shown to be unsupported, though I’ve no doubt Bush believed and still believes it to be true), it wasn’t a mistake.
It was an act of criminal deception.
.
Zifnab
Or we could go back to ’04 and tell Kerry. He’ll be happy to know that some Alabama National Guard Air Force wanker doesn’t have a chance in hell against a Purple Heart Swift Boat Veteran. I mean, how do you touch a veteran? They’re practically sanctified in US culture. Right? … … … Right?
D. Mason
You know, I get so damn sick of this shit. I read this blog daily and have to put up with stuck up assholes pretending like the only people who voted for Bush were backwards hicks. I’m a conservative from the bible belt and I never voted for that idiot. I looked at what he did in Texas and his “professional” life and I knew he was not fit to be a dog catcher let alone hold high office.
Just because Bush calls himself conservative (like how he calls himself president elect) doesn’t make it true. There is another semi- recent case of someone adopting the name of a political philosophy to cover their twisted ideology and most liberals get pretty pissed off when someone tries to pin that despot on them. It is no less dishonest to try and hang the anchor of George Bush around the necks of people who believe in conservative principles.
If you think Obama will win in November without some crossover votes you are dead wrong. If you think you will win those votes by spitting at people who had the nerve to vote for the other guy in the last election then you will be just as much to blame for the McCain administration as anyone else.
Barbara
Maybe no one commented because the notion that the war “was started by mistake” can only be seen as . . . the result of hallucination? How does one send a few hundred thousand marines and soldiers into a foreign country BY MISTAKE?
“Oh, no, no, you were supposed to STOP before you crossed the Iraqi border . . . oh what the heck, might as well keep going now that you’re there.”
I don’t think so.
libarbarian
You dont have to like him but I think that you are a bit out-of-touch on this one.
Tom in Texas
I have a bad feeling that Webb’s longstanding sexism allegations are going to eliminate him. If Obama goes Webb, McCain will pick a female and you’re going to hear nothing but what a bunch of neanderthals the two are. It’s sad because I think he’d be a great VP, but politically he’s nuclear IMO.
cleek
i took that to mean York needed to proofread better.
it’s really hard to think of plausible scenarios where a President can start a war “by mistake”.
JGabriel
David Hunt:
Um, David, Iraq is not in East Asia. It’s very much Western Asia.
(Probably you were being snarky, in which case I apologize for the correction)
.
wasabi gasp
This is great news for all the mistakenly dead people.
dslak
Nineteen Eighty-Four. Buy it. Read it. Now.
demimondian
JGabriel — suggest reading a small book called _1984_ There’s a literary reference there.
Dreggas
You mean nominating McCain wasn’t the lowest depth of desperation?
El Cid
D. Mason: I grew up in the South too. I’ve put up all my life with right wingers and most of the media being able to say whatever the hell they felt about liberals, including routinely labeling them as anti-patriotic seditious cowardly elitist proto-Communists. But, oh god, don’t you dare poke fun at conservatives, because by God they are the True Salt of the Earth types tired of all you damn liberals looking down on them. Pfffft.
The fact is that lots of loud-mouth dumbasses who anoint themselves pundits & spokespersons embraced George W. Bush as a true conservative when he & his party took over all 3 branches of government and it was going to be a Permanent Republican Majority. That happened. I didn’t imagine it. Maybe it wasn’t what you called conservative, but there were people a hell of a lot more influential than you who were damned proud to embrace him and the Delay / Armey / Frist Congress as “conservatives”.
Would I liked to have seen more people explaining to Republican party meetings when dumbass junior was at 92% approval ratings how he wasn’t conservative and they didn’t and wouldn’t have voted for him? Yeah.
SnarkyShark
That makes you fairly unique. I am from Texas, and the loudmouths around here who claim Conservative bona fides crushed on Bush like a 12 year old girl at a Justin Timberlake concert.
Apparently the ability to taunt the DFHs about how their team lost pretty much overrode any real allegiance to fiscal restraint, fear of big government etc.
And the big walk-back(tm) is fact and continues. If you are what you say you are, then fine, carry on and god bless. But a whole lot of your fellow travelers deserve every ounce of scorn and derision coming their way.
And we will not be doing the big history re-write this time.
Credit where credit is due.
JGabriel
D. Mason:
In recent political history, conservatives voted for and supported the views and policies of Nixon, Reagan, and Bush, until they were no longer popular. Then they cried that NixonReaganBush were never real conservatives.
You’ll have to forgive the rest of us for assuming that the people who got conservative support, espoused conservative views, and were elected by conservatives, are, in fact, conservatives, and embody the conservatives the conservative world-view.
Frankly, I think arguing otherwise is what’s dishonest.
.
TCG
It is obvious that Byron York hates America.
cleek
BYork hasn’t done anything worthwhile since he left the Sugarcubes
JGabriel
demimondian:
Thanks, I missed the reference there – though to be fair, I did point out that it was probably snark that I failed to fully appreciate.
Anyway, yes, ‘1984’ is a lacuna in my general reading.
.
w vincentz
Ok, let’s deconstruct the “Iraq War was a mistake meme” one point at a time.
1) It was not a mistake. It was done with intent. There is no excuse. It’s like the “sorry I farted, but it just slipped out”. Nope. That stinks.
2) It is not a “WAR”. It is an illegal invasion of a country that posed no threat. There were UN inspectors on site and doing their job. The UN was sold lies by Powell, just as those that authorized the AUMF were.
3) The illegal occupation continues. Despite the objections of leaders such as al Sistani for the occupiers to leave, the invaders/occupiers continue their presence.
4) The others that share this globe see the intent of the US regarding the TAKING of other peoples’ resources, as has been previously, whether those unfortunates are the Cherokee, the Sioux, or the people of Guatemala…the list could be far longer. Hegemony through militaristic actions are clearly seen, and unfortunately, will no longer be tolerated. Even an idiot should see that willful actions such as those of the USA only breed “terrorists”, those that refuse occupation (remember the British in the colonies?).
Ok, now I’m going to take that stupid yellow magnet off my car, as well as all vestiges of the propaganda that sold the uninformed populace of this “noble cause”.
Wake up America! You’re about to be SOLD yet another “war”.
Good luck with that!
Davebo
ThymeZone
If I’m not mistaken, the McCain fundraiser was moved to a private residence not because he didn’t want to be seen with Bush, but because he didn’t want to be seen in an empty arena.
It’s not like he thought Bush was popular when he originally scheduled it.
Zifnab
We don’t need to win by getting the conservatives, we just need to win all the liberals and enough of the independents to achieve 50% + 1. So fuck you and fuck your antiquated, ineffective, unpopular political dinosaur of an ideology.
Bring on the publicly financed communist-party approved mandatory gay anal abortions. Elections have consequences, bitches!
/Rove
eglenn
Hell, if MS-Sen and KY-Sen polls are any indication, ‘good’ may be a tad pessimistic.
demimondian
It isn’t clear what the reason is. It’s only clear that the first reasn given by the White House (that Bush insists on public venues) is a lie.)
cleek
Bush still has a majority of support (52%) among “conservatives” and is very strong among Republicans (68%). those numbers are dropping, but they are still strong.
compare them to the numbers for moderates (28%) and “liberals” (7%).
SnarkyShark
Correct!
That good old Bush mojo doesn’t seem to be what it was.
So sad
Elvis Elvisberg
York does some actual reporting sometimes. Yes, gleefully biased and part of the conservative “movement” that murdered conservatism, but he’s a whole lot more like an actual journalist than anyone else there. Good for him for saying something like this.
demimondian
Fixed
cleek
… where “support” = “approval”
jake
Oh please God yes.
1. Any woman crazy enough to run with McCane is sure to create great political theatre. (What’s Krazee Kat Harris up to these days?)
2. The cameras might be rolling when he tells her to fetch him a cup of coffee or calls her a stupid cant.
But that ain’t gonna to happen because you’d have to convince McGramps that there’s a woman capable of being CiC. Everything I’ve read about his opinions of women suggests … Well, let’s just say it adds an extra helping of hillarity to Camp Clinton’s praise of McCane.
El Cid
By the way, I really do think the “mistake” these guys are talking about has nothing to do with the policy — I really think they meant that it was a “mistake” to assume that it would remain popular long-term. None of these people give the slightest of sh*ts what effects an invasion and occupation of Iraq would have on the decomposing cellular warlord state formerly known as Iraq, or on the region, or on the soldiers who fought it, nor on the U.S.’ ability to support it. Of course they don’t care about such things.
These people are only p*ssed off that it didn’t stay a political winner for them forever and ever and ever.
SnarkyShark
Bad ass. More of that please!
JGabriel
Jake:
Two words (and two links): Michelle Bachman.
.
John S.
It’s doubleplusgood!
SnarkyShark
Dude, actually I for one welcome true conservatives to the Obama camp. I myself am a true fiscal conservative, but I am socially Liberal. Plenty of room under the tent for those guys who understand the Republican party is anything but.
As long as said Conservatives understand that we are the Government, and that Government has a role to play.
Drown in the bathtub types can fuck right on off. They need to stay in the Republican clown car as it drives over the cliff.
To Mr. Mason I say, if you truly are conservative, then you are better off with the Democrats, as strange as that may seem.
Dave in ME
Oh hell no. McCain is a complete wanktard and no amount of his puffing up his chest over his war service will compensate for his idiotic explanations for staying in Iraq, continuing the Bush tax cuts, or refusing to engage diplomatically with countries that don’t agree with us. Obama is going to wipe the floor with him, assuming he survives the inevitable head explosion that will occur when he is challenged with a serious policy question.
RSA
“. . .Unfortunately, I’m unwilling to say what those mistakes were or who was responsible for them. In fact, I’ll do my best to prevent anyone from being held accountable at all.”
I mean, WTF? Who talks about a terrible price for mistakes without thinking, “Gee, it might be a good idea to get those people out of the picture and analyze those mistakes so that we don’t make them again.”
Rick Taylor
That’s an odd of phrasing it, especially in a written piece. The President didn’t start it by mistake, he did it on purpose. Maybe it’s just difficult for York to write the words, the war was a mistake, or the war was wrong.
Studly Pantload
Talk about your rhetorical shifts, here’s one I don’t see covered much, but have encountered at two conservative blogs, one being RedState:
It’s OK that bin Laden has not been killed or captured. He’s on the run, reduced to living in a new cave or abandoned barn each night, masturbating to grainy old Whitney Houston videos. That’s justice enough served, right there.
Folks, we are dealing with truly delusional nutjobs.
w vincentz
Jake,
If he does, one question.
Does she iron shirts?
Davebo
demimondian
Unless the private residence is akin to Michael Dell’s house it’s a safe bet it would have been pretty lonely in an arena.
Rick Taylor
McCain considers such analysis an “academic argument.”
jrg
Boo fucking hoo. “conservative” has become synonymous with “backwards hick” because of garbage like the the teaching of creationism in public schools, the federal marriage amendment, Coulter’s “latte libel”, the belief that abortions can be reduced through ignorance of birth control, and the manufactured “class warfare” between educated coastal elites and proud, self-identified hillbillies.
You’re correct in saying that Bush did not win on the hick vote alone, but if you are that upset about the fact that Conservatives are being branded as know-nothing inbreds, take it up with the RNC. I doubt anyone here gives a fuck. Republicans developed this narrative, now they own it. No amount of bitching on Balloon Juice is going to change that.
SnarkyShark
From this
To this
Man, talk about your lowered expectations.
A cave could be pretty bad-ass if you decked it out right. Apparently Ossama’s cave has a fairly nice production facility and Dialysis wing
I guess the Cheetos rush is wearing off of the fighting keyboarders. War is hard!
John Cole
As far as I am concerned, after the past eight years, anyone who fancies themself a conservative and as someone with a conscience can no longer stay affiliated with the Republican party.
Conservative and Republican are not the same thing, and the GOP is rotten to the core.
Calouste
Corrected.
rawshark
Plus I think Iraq would be a part of the contested zone.
Studly Pantload
I know of three Republicans in my office who are aboard Train Obama, including one that is *socially* conservative and views trimming abortion rights as a priority matter, but concedes the country if effed up enough that even this important (to him) cause will just have to take a back seat to cleaning up after eight years of malicious mismanagement. And I’m delighted to have him aboard.
CrazyDrumGuy
Why does the National Review hate America?
Zifnab
There’s a difference between being a fiscal watchdog and a fiscal conservative. I don’t know many people who openly advocate wasteful spending. Most of the people I’ve heard spout that ideology are Congressmen or other breeds of Washington Insider.
But it is incredibly difficult to pry the “Government should spend $1000 for a can opener” crowd from the “Abolish the IRS!” crowd in the fiscally conservative wing of the GOP. I think you are ultimately confusing conservatives with independents here. Every time I hear anyone who remotely resembles a true-blue fiscal conservative voice his open on cleaning up the Bureaucracy, it inevitably ends with “… and the Department of Education is unconstitutional. We should get rid of it. The EPA should go too.”
Baby, bath water, its all the same. I don’t know if I really want more conservative economic policy after witnessing the last round of cuts-cuts-cuts to every department that doesn’t make things explode.
demimondian
Fixed
SnarkyShark
Apparently McCain, Tweety and Punkin-head, Joke Line and Broderella, The NYT and WP amongst others.
Oh, you meant people who aren’t ate up with the dumb-ass!
cbear
shorter Byron York–
Rat, meet sinking ship.
I find it hilarious to see all these rodents like York gathered on the fantail of the Titantic and comtemplating the dark waters below.
Fuck em.
Pooh
AK-Sen as well…
Zifnab
After the 2006 election, when GOP Senators and House Reps were getting snow-shoveled out of Congress, it quickly became apparent to both parties that voting for the Iraq War was a big mistake if you were an incumbent.
Certainly, the Iraq War was launched deliberately, but in hindsight, deliberately launching said war was a big mistake that the GOP will continue to pay for over another election cycle or two. So it looks like York is bemoaning that fact, and hoping you’ll feel sorry because the Party Of Stupid did something stupid again.
Glocksman
Quoted for great justice.
I consider myself a small ‘c’ conservative in that I favor upholding the entire (not just the 2nd amendment) bill of rights, fiscal responsibility, and favor a noninterventionist foreign policy.
George Bush shits all over the bill of rights, spends money like it was falling from the sky, and exports democracy at bayonet point.
It’s a sign of just how corrupt the Republicans have become when someone like me supports Barack Obama.
I disagree with him on some issues, but I agree with him more than I do John McSame and he’s got loads more integrity than the Bullshit Express.
Crust
The biggest one: Didn’t Buckley admit the Iraq War was a mistake? An indirect reference:
Buckley was one of the first conservatives to call the Iraq war a mistake…
http://peterscoblic.com/scoblic-qa.htm
El Cid
I find it hilarious to see all these rodents like York gathered on the fantail of the Titantic and comtemplating the dark waters below.
Fuck em.
I absolutely love that imagery.
jake
Pat yourself on the back for that. But your quarrel is with the twisted screw ups who made “Conservative” synonymous with a camera in every bedroom and a hand under every toilet stall. Perhaps you and all the other original conservatives who are dismayed with this turn of events (I know there are a lot of you) should band together to redeem the concept of conservatism. Otherwise you remind me of the Christians who do nothing more than scream “That’s not fair, you’re not being very niiiice!” when someone goes off on dipshits like Hagee.
Calouste
Oh, and about Obama not serving in combat: Bush I is the only president to have done that in the last 28 years.
And why have so many recent presidents been in the Navy? All the ones that served abroad since Eisenhower were:
Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Carter and Bush I.
SnarkyShark
Yep, got that happing down here in the oil patch of all places. Anybody with any sanity knows we got to get off this fucked up road we are on.
When I say I am fiscally conservative- I mean we shouldn’t spend more than we take in, we shouldn’t rack up massive debts, we should try to leave the country in better shape than we found it, etc.
To me, borrowing a shitload of money from China is fiscally irresponsible. Raising taxes on the assholes who profited from the war is fiscally responsible. Using money raised from taxes on wealthy corporations to pay for health and education of the workforce is a fiscally responsible investment in our future.
Thats were I’m coming from. I always thought that was being fiscally conservative because thats the way we used to do it. Of course in our new Orwellian society, maybe its called something else now.
Who the fuck knows anymore.
John Cole
Win.
Ninerdave
1984 via Project Gutenberg
Dennis - SGMM
It took them less than thirty years to convince themselves that it would be okay, once again, to invade a nation that hadn’t attacked us without knowing the first damned thing about the politics, the situation on the ground, the culture, or how to sit down and listen to the people who live there. The ‘cons conveniently forgot that years of warfare in Vietnam with up to half a million U.S. troops in theater and the dropping of 6,727,084 tons of bombs resulted in people clambering into helicopters from the rooftops of Saigon.
Real people with names and positions made terrible mistakes in both wars. As long as it’s “mistakes were made,” or McCain’s “civilian and military commanders” those mistakes will never be owned up to nor will they be redressed.
w vincentz
Crust,
Fuck the Conservatives.
They’ll play against the “raise taxes” to spend rather than their record of “BORROW and SPEND”. Fiscal conservative, huh? Doesn’t China now own Citibank and other financial institutions? Oh yeah, we’re (GOP cons) are keeping us “safe”. “Fight ’em over there”…and all the other bullshit.
Sign up your sons and daughters you good Americans so we can fight the evil ones (all the while Halliburton and all the other corporate cronies rake in huge, HUGE profits for their share holders) Hmmm…wonder WHO they ARE?
Anyway, I’ll give up golf, and take the time to lay a wreath and make a speech filled with lies. You sons’ and daughters’ blood was well shed.
To me, war criminals must face trial. Nothing less.
Ninerdave
Damn socialist.
calipygian
Funny, because the Doughy Pantload said EXACTLY THE SAME THING a few days ago.
Davis X. Machina
…to convincingly argue that the war in Iraq has “made us safer.”
It did postpone for a few crucial years the real threats to the Republic—a Democratic occupant of the White House, Democratic majorities in the House and Senate, and a Supreme Court that actually believes in the law, thereby sparing us, if only for a time, from the ravages of gay marriage and slightly higher marginal income tax rates.
So it was worth it.
Iraq—not so much a war as the world’s most expensive campaign commercial.
Dennis - SGMM
Look at the brave Republicans, fighting against raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans by one-half of one percent to pay for the Webb G.I. bill. Look at the first president to lower taxes in time of war. There is no sacrifice for the war that is so small that Republicans will make it.
calipygian
And the Doughy Pantload weighs in with a blast of hot Cheeto breath. And that fat stupid c#nt talks about cutting and running as if its his stupid ass in the combat zone.
The only place he cuts and runs is sitting on the shitter after a night of heavy beer drinking. But that’s the way it is with chickenhawks, isn’t it?
SnarkyShark
Thank you for the compliment. I remember all the late nights in Havana when me and Fidel and Che used to smoke blunts and talk of the noble proletariat! Some French wine and a little cheese, with that wonderful pungent exhaust oder that only a 57 Chevy in its death throes could make wafting through the air as the SAMs would periodically be fired at lurking U-2s.
Man, those were the days my friend.
SnarkyShark
Yes, we should keep digging that hole!
What is wrong with these fucktards?
w vincentz
McCain the “War Hero”?
Do you mean the guy that gave the North Vietnamese the routes of the bombers so they could reposition their anti-aircraft guns and SAM missiles? The guy that spoke repeatedly on the radio to North Vietnam from Hanoi? THAT “War Hero”?
Google is too easy.
Dennis - SGMM
The c’hawks’ use of the word “we” annoys the hell out of me. I am reminded of my military days where the gratuitous use of the word was met with, “What’s this ‘we’ shit? You got a carp in your sock?”
El Cid
Runner up.
JGabriel
Dennis – SGGM:
Damn, I’m stealing that one.
Nice pithy analysis, Dennis.
.
Cain
rant:
(#$&*OIUer goddam ()#*$)dfi republicans
/rant
I think that sums up my thoughts on the whole thing.
cain
JGabriel
Calipygian:
Does he drink beer? Goldberg always strikes me as a Zima(tm) afficiando. Or the kind of guy who drinks Chardonnay with Red Meat.
Which, by the way, can I mention how the ‘white wine liberal’ label has always struck me as laughable inaccurate? Every ‘liberal’ I know drinks beer, red wine, whiskey/scotch, or vodka.
The only exception I know of is college faculty or arts gatherings, and that’s only because they never stock enough red wine at those things. Given the ubiquity of that trope, one gets the impression that it’s the only place Republicans ever drink. Certainly, if they ever went into a bar, they’d know that no self-respecting liberal ever orders that generally bland swill that goes by the name ‘white wine’.
I think it must be projection: ‘White Whine’ is obviously the driving force of today’s GOP rhetoric.
I think we need a new voter category (in addition to ‘soccer moms’, ‘Reagan Democrats’, and ‘white wine liberals’, all of which should be retired): Red Wine Democrats.
.
Tsulagi
I think that’s a bit of a stretch. Never admit you were wrong. Some will get there, but what I get more from some I work with is that on balance it was the right thing to do, but severely mismanaged during earlier years. Sort of what McCain is now saying, while trying to hide his Fluffers for Bush on Iraq outfit he wore during those years.
So, did 100-year McCain raise a similar factoid when the spoiled brat said he wanted to do Iraq? Or that his six-deferment dildo pumping Bush over Iraq similarly had never served in combat? The only combat The Tard saw during his glorious daddy-provided and shortened Guard years was in bars where he routinely lost battles to alcohol.
SnarkyShark
Some new pithy commentary from the Rude One
McCranky is gonna be toast. I can so not wait until the Debates. If Obama gets the Hillbots in full shriek mode with his calm cool demeanor, imagine what he will do to the GOP sisterhood of perpetual victimization.
Fun times ahead!
cbear
Reading a discussion at the Corner, on any issue more complex than whose turn it is to give K-Lo her next back-wax, always reminds me of Ralph and Herbie (Cheech and Chong).
“Man, I love the way you used the corn for texture.”
Rick Taylor
Claiming conservatism shouldn’t be blamed for the faults of the Bush administration is about as convincing to me as claiming communism shouldn’t be blamed for the shortcomings of the Soviet Union or communist China.
Self proclaimed conservatives took control of the government for six years. During almost all that time, the major media organs devoted to conservativism cheered them on. We poor liberals, were taunted, belittled, accused of cowardice, virtually called traitors, especially when we protested the Iraq war.
Forgive me, but I just don’t recall many conservative outlets protesting the Bush tax cuts, pointing out the fiscal irresponsibility of cutting taxes without cutting spending, especially as we ran up to war. I just don’t recall the great conservative outcry against going to war unilaterally when no one had been attacked; well there were a few lone voices like Pat Buchanan, but he wasn’t taken seriously by many. I just don’t recall the great conservative outcry when the Abu Ghraib photos were released, when we set aside the Geneva conventions and Habeus Corpus, and set up Abu Ghraib. When I sat down with my conservative relatives, when Bush’s poll numbers were plummeting and they told me how they were disappointed in him, and I asked them why, they didn’t bring up any of that; they just brought up immigration.
It’s too late do disassociate Bush from conservatism. The time to scream that Bush had nothing to do with conservatism was in 2000, and 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004. Trying to disassociate Bush from conservatism after he’s become a pariah, is just ridiculous, especially after conservatives have had so much fun and gotten so much mileage out of targeting Democrats with the dreaded l word. Maybe there were conservatives who did protest back when it mattered; I don’t remember hardly any, and I believe they were too few too matter.
jake
Are you kidding, all is splendid in WingNutttia. There’s no chance they’ll wind up dodging high-velocity bits of metal while lugging a few dozen pounds of gear in 120+ or -30 temps, and they know it.
cbear
Contrary to popular opinion, I don’t really have a problem with Bush, Cheney, et al, avoiding military service.
After all, who wants to take a chance going into combat with guys who are too fucking stupid to effectively light the latrine shit on fire.
“Upwind Lt. Bush, upwind goddammit.”
JGabriel
Rick Taylor:
To be fair, there were some such voices at The American Conservative and from the libertarians at Reason.
That said, your observation is still on point. Too few to matter, or too ignored.
.
Rick Taylor
It doesn’t look like he was against it from the beginning, though he admitted it was a disaster earlier than most. Really, it shouldn’t take much to admit that a war of choice that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths a few million refugees, and that cost hundreds of billions of dollars without achieving its objective so far and with no end in sight was a bad idea, but in conservative circles this is unusually bold honesty.
GSD
As I recall, Revisionist in Chief, Karl Turdblossom Rove was running the “Democrats pushed Bush into the war” theme in the media sometime not long ago.
Once the Wurltizer kicks in, we’ll be lamenting the Democratic War on Iraq and lauding the saviors in the GOP who had the sense not to support the war. Just kidding.
Thank God this won’t happen because no one listens to the monkey in the codpiece anymore.
-GSD
D-Chance.
And he was, and John is, right. “Conservative” and Republican are not the same thing; neither are “Liberal” and Democrat. Bill Clinton, for all his faults, was hardly a liberal. In fact, Clinton was far more conservative in his tenure than Bush has been in his. And Clinton was able to reach across the aisle and work the smoke-filled backroom deals that gave us a booming economy and a budget surplus (fiscal conservatism!). Bush said, “My way, fuck off.” And we see the results of that political philosophy.
I have nothing against John McCain. He’s a hero. And, if elected, I’m sure he would do right by the country and keeps its best interests in his mind and heart. So would Obama, if he is the winning nominee.
The key difference between the two will be the people underneath them that will run the country. The secretaries, the bureau chiefs, the under-secretaries, the various officers in control of the DC machine. If McCain is elected, the current crew will remain in place, largely unchanged. A few may leave, another few may move to another position; but it will be the same old faces still in charge.
That is unacceptable. For no other reason, that makes a McCain vote an impossibility for me. Had he been running against a Democrat incumbent, or following a semi-honest or semi-competent Republican, he may well have gotten my vote. But I cannot fathom casting a vote for a Republican this cycle and, by action, rewarding the last 8 years of failure.
They had it all… Presidency and both houses of Congress. We were promised that, if that came to pass, the country would enter a period of greatness unseen before in our history. Instead, they pissed it all away. Not just Iraq, not just the economy, not just the various scandals; but the basic TRUST in the leadership by the rank-and-file. Come January, 2009, I want them out. All of them.
libarbarian
A – Fucking – Men!
I used to hate listening to college communists and other true believers (aka. ZNET) come up with endless excuses for why damn near every single self-described “Communist” regime wasn’t really Communist. They always had a point – none of them ever did live up to the textbook definition of Communism. However, eventually a thinking man has to at least ask himself “If every attempt falls short and succumbs to murderous corruption, maybe there is an underlying flaw thats deeper than just the individuals involved”
My friend, a psychiatrist, says that several studies have shown that between 30-40% of adults essentially lack the ability to critically think about their own thought process and understand why they think what they think. I’ll bet there is a big overlap between this group and the Conservatives who mock the extreme left while simultaneously copying the worst thought-patterns.
montysano
JGabriel said:
Lacuna: 1. a gap or missing part, as in a manuscript, series, or logical argument; hiatus.
I learned something today. Anyways, JGabriel, you need to read Nineteen Eighty Four. Then watch Network. Then…. drink heavily and resist the urge to head for the roof.
MikeR
Um, the war was not “started by mistake.” It was started intentionally, with great premeditation. It’s not like American troops accidentally blundered over the Iraq border. The war WAS a mistake, but that’s a different thing entirely.
JGabriel
D-Chance, much as I like and agree with most of your post, this piece of analysis is a little bit off-base:
Remember impeaching Clinton? Remember the 1995 Goverment shutdown?
Clinton certainly told the Republicans to “Fuck off, my way” in that situation.
The difference between Clinton’s “Fuck off” and Bush’s, is that Clinton and the Democrats were right, in 1995 and in opposing the Iraq conflict, while the Republicans were wrong, both times.
The booming economy and budget surplus of the 90’s was achieved largely in the face of Republican intransigence, not with Republican support.
And some of the ‘compromises’ where Clinton did find common ground with the Republicans turned out pretty badly, like rescinding the Glass-Steagall act – which was a factor in the financial crises we’re now experiencing.
.
cleek
maybe they’re trying to soften the war in case any of the principles get picked up by the ICC. work it down to manslaughter (“it was just a mistake!”), instead of first degree murder (“they’ve been planning this for years, when they were only known as PNAC”).
D. Mason
Yeah, I noticed that too. Clinton was more “conservative” Bush I and for my money Reagan. I don’t remember uncle Ronnie balancing any budgets.
RampantSexism
Boo ya. Hellyeah. w00t.
Let ‘et eat epistemology baby.
Eat it good.
SlouchingtowardBoulder
What do you mean by “ponies”?
Four names: Rezko, Ayers, Wright, Michelle.
Rinse and repeat.
Dreggas
Your use of the word baby is sexist especially when followed by the words “eat it good”.
GoMS
John, he said “…the president of his own party started by mistake.” You know, much the same as stubbing your toe on the coffee table, or spilling coffee on your new shirt. It was never intentional, it just happened. So it doesn’t count as a “real” mistake!
Chredon
To D. Mason – Since 2000, I’ve posted to various forums from my slightly-left-of-center point of view only to be bombarded by self-appointed Guardians of the Right, accusing me of everything from bed-wetting to being Osama bin Laden’s ‘Handy’ man. Such is the level of political discourse in our nation. I think it’s sad that Democrats are stooping to employing those same tactics, when in fact they could actually stick to thing like facts and issues and ideas, and still win the argument.
Unfortunately, this concept comes straight from the Karl Rove playbook: if you cannot dispute the message, destroy the messenger. It has been used to silence criticism of the Iraq war (anyone who opposes it is not supporting our troops, unpatriotic, and giving aid and comfort to our enemies), to beat down critics of the Bush tax cuts (they want to give you the biggest tax increase in history), to destroy John Kerry (can you say Swift Boat), and now to attack anyone who wants to talk to a foriegn government (they’re all Neville Chamberin appeasers!)
I feel sorry for real conservatives, people who rationally and realisitically want balanced budgets, smaller government, less interference, and stronger Constitutional rights. Your party has abandoned you, and yet you will garner the criticism that gets heaped upon the Party. Unless the GOP gets back to their true core values and starts talking about ideas instead of launching character assassinations, I’m afraid you’re in for a long, long time on the fringes. Even as a Democrat, I hope the GOP can recover. We are a much stronger nation when we can hold a rational debate over the issues, and avoid brainless insults that only stir hatred and distrust.
Rich
I wonder if the same stupid people who told us that the world would be a better place if we left Vietnam and then proceeded to cut off the South Vietnamese (and thus broke our end of the treaty to end the Vietnam war for us) which encouraged
1)The fall of S. Vietnam and the mass killing, reeducation, and boat people for the theatre of operation.
2)The killing fields of Cambodia.
3)The loss of credibility worldwide for the U.S.
Anyway, I wonder what they will say when jihadist nuts/rogue regimes/our enemies attack us or our interests and indicate that our lack of commitment and willpower in Iraq were part of what encouraged them?
Who wants soldiers in the line of fire? No one! Who realizes that sometimes you have to short term sacrifice for the greater good vs. do what is politically expedient, a leader. What kind of idiotic answer did Obama give. In 16 months no matter what? Nice way to paint a target on our soldier’s backs and that of those Iraqis who have worked to make it a safer place. Oh it gets better. We will leave forces in the region, but not Iraq, in case terrorists decide to try to use Iraq as a base of operations. So, let’s see, we pull out without regard to conditions on the ground and then expect the public will support a redeployment? That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
Oh wait, pull out of Iraq and leave it to Iranian goons and terrorists while invading a friend (Pakistan). I forget that’s even stupider.
Does using some mindless phrase, McSame, make you all feel better? Does it help justify your idiotic positions? Does it help explain why we haven’t had any attacks since 9/11? Does it explain the dozens of times, he broke with Bush and his party? Apparently, mindlessly citing McSame or Halliburton or whatever the idiotic catchphrase is for the month, substitutes for serious discussion.
RampantSexism
Kiss my a…. er, I mean, how dare you sir!
slightly_peeved
I think there’s a simple visual rebuttal to that one: Bush in his flightsuit.
Nothing there, Barely knows him, Done to Death, Cindy McCain.
There’s one name that’s already hitting McCain far worse: George W. Bush.
Splitting Image
“Oh wait, pull out of Iraq and leave it to Iranian goons and terrorists while invading a friend (Pakistan). I forget that’s even stupider.”
Actually, what’s stupider is thinking that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are “friends” after a terrorist group from one of those two countries attacked you and found shelter in the other, and years of stalling have proven that neither country is willing or able to help you bring them to justice. You insist on ignoring them while frothing at the mouth about Iraq and Iran, who had nothing to do with the Trade Center bombing, goons and terrorists though they may be.
I’m getting a weird sense of deja vu here.
Your comment sounds eerily similar to a Clinton supporter insisting that Florida and Ohio are important swing states while Colorado, Wisconsin and Virginia are more or less unobtainably Republican. It’s like both of you are arguing from 10-year old crib sheets and don’t have a really good grasp of current events.
w vincentz
Hey Rich,
Pass that bong. You’ve had enough.
El Cid
Once again, for the children: What brought the killing fields of Cambodia was our U.S. hawks having bombed & carpet-bombed them from 1965 – 1973, thereby in the CIA’s own analysis driving the peasantry into the hands of the lunatic Khmer Rouge guerrillas.
As much as you doofuses would like to blame Cambodia on Noam Chomsky and a desire to keep bombing peasants forever, no, this is your doing, you and your idiot hawk predecessors who are eternally shocked, shocked that when you blow a society to bits that the people who emerge to take power in the rubble are often nasty people.
You made the killing fields of Cambodia, hawks, not those who wanted you to stop handing power to the Khmer Rouge.
RSA
I thought Balloon Juice was blocked for soldiers in Iraq. Live and learn.
RSA
My last post was probably too obscure. I’ll try again: Where’s the sacrifice? I can think if a lot of people who were responsible for this current war, and all the sacrifice I see from them is getting medals of honor, retiring to the lecture circuit or TV commentary, or simply making shitloads of money. In a lot of historical wars, leaders led by example, and they were called leaders because they were out in front. Not any more. It’s easy to talk about sacrifice when all you’re thinking about is giving up your golf game.
TenguPhule
We had to process Soldiers in the meatgrinder to save them.
Everybody who wants to stay in Iraq, stay there.
Everyone else who wants to get out of the pool of blood, please do so.
TenguPhule
Anthrax Mailings, you fucking lying son of a Darrell.
And that was only in the US domestic. Worst world outbreak on record since the War of Terror.
And then quietly flipped over on his stomach, cheeks spread.
Torture and Iraq.
TenguPhule
I wonder what it says when dumbfucks decide to throw their weight around and discover that their trillion dollar military is easily countered by dollar deal devices?
We are leaving Iraq unless you can produce magical funding and troop ponies from your ass.
The only question is when and how many more killed for stupid fuckturds like you?
The sound of one hand clapping.
The Iraqis have already been betrayed by Bush.
Take a good look at the numbers of Iraqis being allowed into the USA as refugees.
Now go take a rope, tie yourself a noose and be a hero.
TenguPhule
The Assholes hung Jane Fonda on Liberals.
So George Bush can hang on conservatives.
Or just hang.
TenguPhule
I’m sure Fuckstain McCain looks forward to explaining how turning traitor to the enemy and selling out his fellow Americans because he was afraid of a little pain is solid sacred veteran appeal.
Chredon
Can we please not dissolve into the same level of character assassination that the GOP’s attack dogs use? There is no proof, only rumor, to the idea that McCain aided N Viet Nam. And quite frankly, until YOU have been in the Hanoi Hilton for five years, I don’t think you have the right to use it against McCain. It’s no different from what the Swift Boat Morons for Bush did to John Kerry. I’d like to think we could stay above using Karl Rove tactics.
As for Rich and his belief that pulling out of Iraq will be the same as pulling out of Viet Nam, I have this historical perspective – We spent nearly ten years in Viet Nam, with troop levels upwards of half a million. And what did we achieve? In pratical terms, nothing. In the end, evertyhing that we went there to prevent came about, and the only difference is millions dead on their side and thousands dead on ours.
Is this the legacy you want to continue?
You are correct, that it reflects badly on America when we pull out of such an endless war. But even worse is when we START such a war. We need leaders who understand that US troops should only be deployed as a last resort, and only when the nation is threatened. We need to use (what’s that word again?) DIPLOMACY to secure Iraq’s safety from its neighbors, we need to concentrate on reconstruction and putting Iraqis to work rebuilding their nation (giving them jobs that pay well instead of having them sit around unemployed while Haliburton gets paid well), and we need to help them develop a military that can fight insurgents. Then we need to get the hell out. And I think all that can be accomplished in 18 month to 2 years IF WE MAKE THAT THE FOCUS OF OUR EFFORTS.
dj spellchecka
Way upthread somebody made the spurious argument “Just because Bush calls himself conservative (like how he calls himself president elect) doesn’t make it true. There is another semi- recent case of someone adopting the name of a political philosophy to cover their twisted ideology and most liberals get pretty pissed off when someone tries to pin that despot on them. It is no less dishonest to try and hang the anchor of George Bush around the necks of people who believe in conservative principles.”
the definitive response, from glenn greenwald:
The great right-wing fraud to repudiate George W. Bush.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/06/04/fraud/
dj spellchecka
rich [either misremembering or misunderstanding history]: “I wonder if the same stupid people who told us that the world would be a better place if we left Vietnam and then proceeded to cut off the South Vietnamese (and thus broke our end of the treaty to end the Vietnam war for us)”
by 1966, Nixon realized that the war wasn’t winnable, by 1967, defense Secretary McNamara confided that the war was unwinnable. Johnson quit as commander in chief, by refusing to run for re-election in ’68. Nixon campaigned on ending the war, first saying troops would be out by December ’69, then changed it to simply say he had a secret plan to end the war. then came tet, then mi lai, then it was all she wrote.
plus, our leaving Vietnam did not cause the Cambodian genocide. get your fact straight.