Don’t forget, Generation Kill premieres tonight.
I am honestly curious how this miniseries will be received. I wonder if it will be seen as an attack on the troops, at is might actually portray them realistically, as something less than perfect angels (which, as we know, is a mortal crime in the jingospehere). Or will it we well received? Or will we have to endure weeks of endless fact-checking, as the armchair generals amongst us inform us of every little thing that is not completely and totally accurate (a la the nerd fury that is generated regarding creative use of physics in a sci-fi movie).
Should be interesting to watch.
*** Update ***
Speaking of the military, Duncan Hunter was just on my tv explaining to me that the reason we can not repeal “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and have people serve openly is because we need to be tough, unlike those nancy boys in the British Army. Seriously:
“We aren’t the Brits. We’re not the Europeans. We’re not the Swedes,” says Republican Congressman Duncan Hunter, who is the ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee.
Hunter argues that gays do not belong in the U.S. military because American troops need to be hardened warriors, unlike soldiers in the 15 NATO countries where gays serve openly.
“The Fallujahs of the world, the Ramadis of the world that require heavy combat and lots of fire-fighting capability – those are the places the Americans go. The other countries tend to go to the so-called peacekeeper zones, where they have fewer fire fights and less contact with the enemy,” Hunter says. “And the European nations show little will to send large contingents of their military people into dangerous places.”
Put that in your coalition of the willing pipe and suck on it, why don’t ya!
*** Update #2 ***
I thought it was pretty damned good. Although I was surprised that it portrayed these guys swearing, looking at pornography, and displaying a pretty casual regard for life. I have been assured by the 101st Chairborne that all of our soldiers and Marines are perfect angels, so I am not sure what was up with all that.
In all seriousness, it was good. This wil be the most popular miniseries since Band of Brothers.
minstrel boy
one thing that guys like pekinpah, mailer, sam fuller and a few others realized was that the very best way to make an anti-war statement was to accurately portray what the hell goes on. show that and the shock and horror that recoils through the society which used to be blissfully unaware of what they were asking kids to do would insist that a rapid and total end to that comes about.
one of the most impressive things for me came when i read nathaniel fick’s “one bullet away: the making of a marine officer” alongside “generation kill.” the way these two memiors of the the same time period and these same people really amazed me, it also convinced me of the truth of their recollections.
the marine corps has not approved, nor endorsed anything to do with this production. they did not oppose either. they also did a pre-screening at pendleton friday.
the jarheads loved it and demanded an immediate repeat showing. right then and there.
calipygian
I thought the book was the best Iraq War book I’ve read so far (and I’ve read a lot of them) and all my jarhead friends LOVED it.
Mr. Furious
It will be condemned and widely panned just because of the title. Most of them won;t even watch it…
I watched several of the trailers, and it is WAY too off-message for the 82nd Chairborne.
BJ
Hey! I resemble that remark!
gopher2b
I haven’t read the book but I’m pretty sure there won’t be scenes where Iraqi children are giving the soldiers candy so it will be panned as unpatriotic and defeatist.
It will also be awesome. You can’t go wrong with the creators of the Wire.
cay
WTF?
blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/new-ironic-new.html
Andrew J. Lazarus
Gays serve openly in the Israeli Army, not usually considered wimpish.
Joshua Norton
Hmmm. To date, 24 nations allow openly gay individuals to serve in the military. And I wouldn’t call an Israeli gay soldier “nancy”. They’re more like the “hold my machine gun while I take a leak” type.
Small minds with small wee-wee’s is the only “fear” that motivates DADT.
calipygian
I spent 20 years in the military as a linguist and I would estimate that probably close to a third of linguists are gay/bi/bi-curious. That’s just an anecdotal observation not based in any science, but I had a lot of shipmates I was stationed in Spain with who had a lot of Madonna posters on their walls, if you know what I mean. Plus, the last time I was in Monterey for training, my apartment was right next to the Lighthouse Bar and Grill on Lighthouse Avenue, probably Monterey’s loudest and proudest gay bar. It was literally 25 steps from my front door and thus the closest place for a beer. Needless to say, I ran into a lot of people from the Presidio there. A lot.
No one in the military cares. Really. The only people in Monterey who got kicked out are the ones that climbed up on the COs desk and did their best Bette Midler imitation. As long as you don’t do that, you can stay in the military as long as you want and rise as high in the enlisted ranks as you can (I’ve known several gay E-9s with way more than 20 years in).
The only people who make big deals about it are ass wipes like Duncan Hunter.
Its like that guy on 60 Minutes said: You just need to turn down the flame a bit.
Itchy Brother
So Duncan Hunter is concerned that gays aren’t tough enough to be “real” soldiers. I’d love to watch him explain that to Juliet Draper.
Mary
Fuck you, Duncan Hunter, on the behalf of the Canadian, British and other forces who have taken serious casualties in Afghanistan while your fucking government stampeded into Iraq instead. Fuck you very, very much.
matt
It’s hilarious that his particular reason for opposition is literally based on a stereotype. I guess we shouldn’t let Mexican Americans serve because they might steal tank parts during a hardened battle.
matt
By the way, most everyone (including right wingers) loved Generation Kill and One Bullet Away, which was kind of odd because neither book paints a particularly rosy picture.
nightjar
Yea, those Euro pussies sure missed out on Dear Leaders glorious “Mission Accomplished” fandango in Iraq.
Duncan is fat witless fool who gave us the orange-glazed chicken, fresh fruit groupe, steamed peas and mushrooms, rice pilaf, defense against charges of torture at Gitmo. America is the better with the DH’s out of congress.
Don McArthur
Considering the way things have been going for the ‘Wide Stance’ party of late, it’s only a matter of time before Duncan Hunter is caught with a bag of soiled boys underpants in his office desk drawer.
Scott H
Meanwhile, back in civilization, the British “Army acts to promote gay rights.” [BBC]
tballou
I am sure all the British soldiers killed and wounded in Iraq and Afganistan appreciate Duncan’s slur.
cyntax
Well Duncan Hunter’s got his opinion, but even the USMC is on board with letting gays serve openly (or rather the Marine general associated with this study is):
full article
I have to say I’m a bit surprised that Rep. Hunter is so against this. My recollection of serving in a line unit was that what really mattered was whether the guy next to you could be trusted do his job and not get you killed; race, religion and everything else doesn’t really figure into that.
On the other hand Hunter was a Ranger back in ’70 and ’71, and the study cited above mentions that acceptance of gays appears to be a generational thing, so Rep. Hunter may be projecting a bit.
Ari
Add Israel to the list of militaries lacking hardened warriors
TR
I guess the British troops in Basra were, what, a bunch of fucking pansies?
Mary
cyntax, that’s exactly what the British senior officer said on 60 Minutes tonight. They found that the frontline troops adapted quite readily, much more readily than old guys like himself.
Incertus
It’s always the ones who yell the loudest. No chance in hell McCain chooses him as running mate, I guess.
calipygian
Rangers have to go through SERE training. Perhaps young 2LT Hunter had some oddly erotic, but icky, feelings as he was huddled up with his buddy for warmth in the Artic survival portion.
Scarred for life, he is now.
Cassidy
Hunter is sorta of right, just for the wrong reasons. The bulk of any military action falls on the US. While the Brits, Canadians, French, etc. are quite capable, they rarely contribute anything close to what we do. They are our allies, but a lot of times it doesn’t feel like it.
Prettymuch.
Third Eye Open
OT, I know, but it’s Sunday, so suck it up, you whiners!
Does anyone else find the mounting parallels between Obama and Lincoln a bit more than political-novelty?
Ok, I will pass on them both being from Illinois, first-term senators, lawyers, and great orators…But with the news out today, that at least opens the door (wider?) for a Hagel VP nod, harking back to Johnson ala 1865 and his penchant (although this really isn’t unusual in recent presidential elections) for speaking of unity between the bi-chromatic US of A.
The only question I have is what Obama would look like in a stove-pipe hat and flowin’ the facial hair.
Incertus
Might that have something to do with the fact that recently, almost everything we’ve wanted to do is stupid?
4tehlulz
This is Duncan Hunter we’re talking about; he might believe this.
The Moar You Know
I’m not, but it has nothing to do with the military, and everything to do with his district back home.
Now, of course, he’s leaving, but he’s paving the way for Duncan Jr, who, barring a miracle, will surely win.
Gotta make sure that the tatted-up, alcoholic, big-truck-driving, mouthbreathing, Jesus-lovin’, early pregnancy, Mexican-hating wastes of life that comprise the cesspool that is the 52nd (“The Shame of San Diego”) understand that Duncan Jr. is “on board” with the program.
nightjar
I really don’t consider unnecessary and/or unwinnable wars like Iraq and Vietnam as true test of ally loyalty. The French warned us about Vietnam and we didn’t listen and the same for Iraq. Old Europe countries have a long bloody history of fighting insurgencies in foreign countries and we’d have been wise to take their sage advice. That’s not to say the French can’t be nambi-pambi pricks, and they could help a lot more with the fighting in Afghanistan.
Nevertheless, I believe the French have been maligned unfairly and in the end are like the true friend who tells you hard truths about what mistakes your about to make.
Wingnut trolls will love that remark. (:
Corner Stone
I’m pretty sure this is the fucking point. Why should they be anyone but who they are? If the job is getting done and competence (etc.) is evident, who gives a royal John Cole if they are teh ghey or not?
A lifetime ago when I was in high school I remember several preppie-esque boys try to pick on the openliest ghey child in our school. After he kicked the shit out of three of them and was still standing the rest decided to leave him alone.
cyntax
Ah interesting. I hadn’t seen that. You have to commend the Brit officer for at least recognizing what his prejuidices were. It’s too bad Hunter can’t make that distinction and is instead trying to politicize what are essentially his limitations.
Given Hunter’s experience he really has no excuse for putting partisan politics ahead of the mission. Except that that seems to be Republican SOP.
calipygian
I think instead of wishing I could watch Generation Kill tonight because I don’t have HBO, I’m going to pop in my copy of The Battle of Algiers.
No namby pamby frogs in that movie.
calipygian
THis is the REAL money quote from the Navy Times article cited above:
“Loss of personal integrity”, i.e. people have to lie about who they are to their co-workers and superiors which, in the military, is worse than teh ghey.
This is the core of the issue, really. It also puts the onus right where it belongs: on the people who think teh ghey is icky and can’t handle the truth.
cyntax
SERE training being what it is, I’m sure there’s some joke about homophobia and rough trade in there somewhere, but I ain’t touching it…
nightjar
Nope, none at all. They were some kind of brutal mofo’s in that movie and in the real life version. Can’t hardly blame them for not wanting to repeat that kind of evil shit.
Third Eye Open
My $0.02:
If the Corps et al want cookie-cutter bullet sponges, then let em have em..You shouldn’t be required to disown who you are, but just because you happen to be black doesn’t mean you get to express your Too-$hort personality traits, if you happen to prescribe to that mind-set.
cyntax
Good point. I really hope the military has an opportunity in the next few years (as we get out of Iraq) to reclaim some of the morale center that has been eroded by policies like this and the ones that enabled Abu Ghraib. We’ll see.
colleeniem
Nightjar and Calipygian: I think if certain members of the administration are brought to the justice they deserve, as (an extremely lenient) part of the punishment they should have been forced to watch ‘Algiers’ with their eyelids propped open a la ‘A Clockwork Orange,’ oh, 100X in succession.
Particularly the last 2 minutes.
Let them stew in their own stupidity for a while.
OriGuy
This reminds me of the History Detectives episode on PBS this week. One of the segments was about a flag associated with an African-American regiment in WWI. Since the US Army didn’t want to have AA combat troops, the 369th was attached to a French unit. From the PBS website for the show:
TenguPhule
With assholes like Bush leading and assholes like you following, we’re lucky they sent anybody at all.
Who can blame them, they’re not batshit insane.
Eric
I’d like to ask Hunter if he’s afraid those gay soldiers would make our “hardened” troops soft?
jm
Lincoln was never a senator.
Eric
PS, especially in the showers?
Jay
I remember when the FX network attempted a drama-series portrayal of OIF, called “Over There.” The ending of the first episode made me cry, the second episode was riveting, but then the bottom fell out and it was canceled after 10 shows.
Oh well, it was far smarter than “Dirt,” but at least FX brought “The Shield” back for one more run.
TR
Thought it was pretty damn good myself.
Weird seeing Tobias Beecher and Ziggy Sobotka riding into war, but … whatever.
pdf
I thought GK was kinda dull. It wasn’t sanctimonious like In The Valley Of Elah or Redacted or pretty much every other filmic depiction of the Iraq war, but it also wasn’t very interesting or especially funny. I don’t know, I loved the first four seasons of The Wire, but I think Burns and Simon have kinda lost it a little. I guess they’re so used to having season-long arcs to play with that they’ve forgotten how to make stuff happen right from the get-go, in order to keep the attention of non-cultists.
RandyH
I thought it was a pretty good show. I’ve noticed that HBO OnDemand has a bunch of extra stuff to watch about it as well. I’ll check that out later. But this should be a really good miniseries.
Phoenix Woman
Yup.
You know all the gory footage at the beginning of Spielberg’s Saving Private Ryan? The stuff for which he got such high praise? That was all damned near a shot-for-shot redoing of footage done on site in real time by John Huston for a film that the Army shelved because it was too realistic.
Third Eye Open
jm,
I stand corrected, so let me re-phrase: …one-term U.S. Congressional members…
Kevin
This is something that I know irritates the hell out of my relatives back in the UK and Ireland. Being an “ally” of the United States doesn’t mean blindly doing what the current US administration tells you to.
calipygian
GK is all lies, lies, lies, I tell you. K-Lo sez that all of our soldiers are decent, upstanding citizens who don’t swear, write their mothers and their virgin girlfriends three times a day, don’t use porn and never, EVER touch themselves in an impure way. And I know K-Lo is right because her view of us military men conforms IN EVERY WAY with everything I have seen in twenty years in the military.
Its almost like she was serving right next to me, by golly.
KevinD
I thought the show started out well. I was wondering how they were going to portray Encino Man and Captain America and it looks like they’re staying close to the book and not shying away from it.
Nick
‘101st Chairborne’? Is that the first time you’ve used that? First time I’ve seen it, in any event. I love it; it should become the standard.
matt
From PJ
FS
The Greek and Roman armies were full of gay men and yet somehow managed to conquer the world.
The Thinking Man's Mel Torme
My father was sent to Cherbourg in late 1944, after D-Day, and never wanted to talk about it. He was nearly killed by shrapnel from a German shell, and carried pieces of it in his shoulder the rest of his life.
He was amiable and easy going, but the kind of person who never cried. When he went to see “Saving Private Ryan,” he broke down sobbing and had to run out of the theater during those opening scenes.
He told me later he never wanted to join any of the veterans’ groups because he didn’t want to sit around listening to old farts talk like they were Audie Murphy. He hated war more than anyone I ever met.
Ian Welsh
Casualties/per soldier sent have been quite high in Afghanistan this last year, and that’s mostly NATO troops. In fact, while US has the world’s premier open field battle army in many respects, it sucks at counter insurgency and urban warfare and even American officers know it.
As for your allies, well, y’know, it’s a good friend who follows his buddy into a fight against someone who didn’t attack the buddy first, a fight that was needless and picked for no good reason. I think it’s amazing that the Brits sent as many troops as they did.
the relative virtues of militaries I will leave alone, except to note that while American troops are good at some things, they are bad at others, and even folks like John Poole recognize that very well. American troops have the best equipment, but they are far far far from the best trained or most disciplined troops around.
KevinD
Once again, Reality has a Liberul Bias.
KevinD
Or Liberal, for you english speakers…
gopher2b
I thought it was pretty good too. I didn’t read the book but I read the one Fick wrote (he’s the Lt. “Nate”). I didn’t even realize these were about the same platoon until the “Captain America” showed up.
If I remember correctly, Fick hated his Captain.
KevinD
Nathan Fick, if I remember, is the one officer that comes off as a sympathetic charactor in the book.
I justed started re-reading it to get a refresh.
zuzu's petals
DON’T FORGET POLAND !
scarshapedstar
They lost me when the Humvee ran over a dog. That’s physically unpossible!
rachel
I just got an off-the-wall idea: What if the anti-learn-a-foreign-language crowd thinks gay/bi/bi-curious people decided to learn second languages so they could chat up prospective boy-/girl-/bi- friends? What if in their heart-of-hearts, they are afraid that communicating with foreigners will turn good American kids gay, and that’s why Obama’s remarks on the need for teaching foreing languages in public schools made them go so batty?
L. Ron Obama
Tattoosydney
With respect, fuck you.
The United states currently has 35,000 (or so) troops in Afghanistan – out of a population of 300 million.
Australia currently has just over 1000 soldiers in Afghanistan – out of a population of 20 million – which at my calculation is about twice the per capita rate of the US contingent in Afghanistan.
Australia sent 500 troops to Iraq, 46,000 to Vietnam,and 993,000 to World War Two (which was at that time out of a population of 7 million!!).
At the moment, Australia has peacekeeping forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, East Timor and the Solomon Islands.
I am sure you could do the same analysis of any number of other countries – many of whom allow gays to serve in their defence forces.
Just because the US media doesn’t report the contributions that other countries make doesn’t mean that they aren’t contributing above and beyond their ability to do so.
Notably, the Australian armed forces permitted gays in the military in 1992, gives full partnership recognition to same sex partners of defence force personnel, and this year (the ultimate sign of acceptance) Defence Force members marched in the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras for the first time.
Every study that has been conducted suggests that the only difference it has made is that there is less friction and more integrity within defence force units.
Yes, I can do links to suport most of this, but I’m so grumpy, that I can’t make them work.
Kevin
The Professional Outrage Squad are out in force over at the GOS, this time at the cover of the new issue of the New Yorker.
Tattoosydney
Dammit… my calculating brain is not working, and it looks like the US rate is twice that of Australia in Afghanistan …
I don’t think that that detracts from the fundamental point – small countries like Australia consistently send their young men and women into war to fight the good fight, and it is just plain rude for people to denigrate that service by suggesting that only the US tries to pull its weight…
Jay
That CAN’T be Duncan Hunter’s real hair.
What a bitch the congressman is.
iluvsummr
Funny thing is McCain’s campaign has also slammed the cover,
and the whole thing has been picked up as far away as Australia
The New Yorker is going to sell out all its July 21 copies – talk about a shrewd marketing move. I’m still not renewing my subscription though – haven’t been able to read through the New Yorker lately and I suspect no amount of manufactured outrage will change that.
Big E
re: Generation Kill
–> 1st episode….
21st century kids/marines realizing that despite all the bullshit about patriotism, ‘gung ho-ness’, crazy non-reality commanders, under supplied and basically left on their own to survive , they still try and do their job day to day…. and live to tell the story-
sorta reminded me a little bit of the movie ‘Jarhead’ that was out a few years ago.
and Duncan Hunter…. IS A DOPE
zuzu's petals
Pretty sure Malkin’s gonna bust a gut over those terrorist chic scarves they were wearing.
bago
I wonder how hard it will be to see the whole nasiriyah incident.
harlana pepper
Did they show people being, um, gay n’ stuff?
Lee
The HBO show Generation Kill (getting the book today) is a very realistic portrayal of Marines in the field. When Ms. Perpertual Outrage (or any other wingnuts) gets her panties in a wad over the various parts of it she again will show how completely divorced from reality she is.
With regard to gays in the military:
I’ll second calipygian’s
JR
Aren’t these right-wingers the same fools who glorify “300” and the infamous homosexual warrior society of antiquity?
jake
In my dreams Duncan Doughnut Hunter is beaten to a pulp by a couple soldiers from that hotbed of sissydom: The Israeli Army. But I’ll settle for a few guys from Canada. Or Australia…
Damned at Random
David Simon will put out a quality show and I hate to miss it, but my stepdaughter is headed for Balad Air Base at the end of the month, so for the short term I’ll have to pass. Nerves are just too raw. We’ll be watching Season 2 of the Wire at my house tonight
Ole
Well fuck you too congressman Hunter.
Denmark has a combat battalion in Afghanistan and (at least until recently) was the country with the highest fatality/capita rate.
And somehow some yanks wonder why the rest of the world from time to time manage to get the idea that you’re a bunch egocentric pricks with no sense of what’s going on in the world around you?
Regards.
Cassidy
Awwww…hurt my feelings….
Riiiggghtttt….I think you can now go into the “doesn’t know what he’s talking about pile”.
Fuck you back. 1000? Big whoop. That’s a quarter of what we’ve lost. it’s less than 1% of our commitment. I guarantee, as an ally, if you guys ever decided that you were gonna go to war, you’d get more than a Battalion from us.
As for the “manliness” of foreign troops. I, personally, have had the opportunity to train with Germans, Brits, French, South Korean and Canadian and have not been disappointed by any of them. I’d have to say that the German’s seemed like the least “hard”, but it could’ve just been the unit. And gays? Who gives a flying fuck. Do your job and go home. As long as your not doing someone else’s wife, I’ve could care less who you’re fucking.
Cassidy
I forgot Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, Italians, and Peruvians.
Clay
Fans of Evan Wright’s Generation Kill will be happy to learn that he has a new book called Hella Nation. Kirkus Reviews calls the book “Vivid confirmation of the arrival of a major chronicler of those who live on or beyond the margins of the American mainstream.” Don’t miss Hella Nation, on shelves April 7th.