10:03 pm- Blah blah blah. Straight talk makes an appearance. That has to be part of someone’s drinking game.
10:05 pm- Glittering generalities.
10:45pm- Biden won, but the site crashed. On the upside, we had 5k hits last hour, so the servers were stressed.
I guess my only real bit of clarity tonight is that Palin is a wingnut blogger.
Palin, by contrast, didn’t wear very well. Her schtick got old. Like her candidacy more generally, it was a sugar rush that fades quickly. It wasn’t so much that she had any truly trainwreck responses (though there was plenty of gibberish). It was that her mindless memorized cutesy lines and winks began to look like amateur hour in comparison to Biden’s command of facts and policy.
Pretty much.
Early polls paint a significant Biden win- 51-36.
Not a Disaster
How’s that for a compliment? There’s no question that Palin was outmatched the entire time, and I am fairly sure that viewers will come away thinking that Biden was the winner and was more qualified for the VP role. Give her credit–she held on through the entire thing, clutching to her prearranged attack points for dear life, and she didn’t say anything that was fantastically horrible. Her statement on civilian casualties caused by airstrikes in Afghanistan would have been atrocious if I believed that she knew any better, but I feel confident that she does not know anything about the situation in Afghanistan. McCain’s campaign is already in terminal decline, so it probably didn’t matter that much anyway. Had she completely failed, it would have made the result more lopsided, but I expect that there will be only a marginal boost for Obama in the next few days.
Consistently, Larison is one of the best bloggers out there. As someone who does not consider himself a Republican, Democrat, or independent, but an actual conservative (“but daddy, you said they were like uinicorns!”), he offers an oblique angle on our current politics that is piercing and worth reading. Unlike much of what I see and read on a daily basis, I feel like I learn something when I read him.
He should win an award for his blogging in 2007-2008. Seriously.
ninerdave
It’s the new Caribou Barbie talking doll !!!
Pull the string and she speaks random campaign talking points !!
Just Some Fuckhead
Time to change the site slogan to "Consistently fucked on debate night!"
chrismealy
Is it just me, or is Palin’s combination of glib, condescending, and gushing really obnoxious?
Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin
Parting shot from Tom Brokaw: "The Democrats are glad there’s only one vice-presidential debate."
r€nato
only because you are a coastal latte-sipping elitist, chrismealy
Comrade Scrutinizer
@chrismealy:
SATSQ: Yes
r€nato
prize for the best GOP fellating goes to Tom Brokaw, not even close.
Comrade Scrutinizer
My good Jesus. A "USA" chant?
Just Some Fuckhead
Jesus makes people like that. No one knows why.
Jeff
I’ve only lived on the coasts, so I do not know any better. But do voters actually fall for that folksy BS. It was grating so much I had to look away.
Just Some Fuckhead
I think she’s very qualified to be spokesmodel for the McCain campaign. The other stuff, not so much.
r€nato
well gosh golly, I don’t know what you East Coast people thought but to us down-home regular folks on Main Street that was a heckuva debate and Palin went nukular on Biden. And how about his dead wife? hahahahaha!
Comrade Warren Terra
I’m all in favor of the site revamp, but I’d prefer that the front page posts not be abbreviated, as they are now, at least on my phone’s possibly odd browser.
jnfr
Black box of doom hitting last thread at roughly post 160 for me. Which was weird because while you were playing with the CSS and the fonts were changing I saw all the way up into the 180s without a problem.
Anyway, the debate. Not a game-changer, but I sure have a soft spot for Joe Biden.
r€nato
Palin has been hogging all the media lately, I think a lot of Americans got to know Biden tonight and he looked good. Smart, knowledgable but human too.
Doug
I thought it was harsh of her to say that Biden’s wife’s reward was with the angels. Then it occurred to me she was probably talking about his living wife.
kommrade jakevich
A random bobble head said that she helped Sarah Palin, but hurt John McCain, she’s running for 2012.
Christ, if McPOW starts to think she’s going to trash him to get a leg up he’ll get rid of her quicker than you can say K-Lo luvs Mitt.
Also, it appears that we now have paragraph breaks. Thank you O great Internet Overlords.
Just Some Fuckhead
John, I think you can help ammeliorate the deliterious effects of peak traffic by quickly opening new threads to keep post comments volume down.
Brian J
I am not an impartial person, but I thought Palin came across well, in the sense that she didn’t say anything that was clearly ridiculous to everyone and that she appeared confident. She repeated several distortions or outright lies about the other side, but that was to be expected. It’s always possible that her performance will help the ticket, but if that’s the case, it’ll be in the sense that she possibly prevent an absolute blowout. I still think this is Obama’s to lose, not only because he’s running with the wind at his back and McCain is not, but also because a large part of the luster is permanently off Palin. Her decent performance, visually speaking, isn’t going to change the fact that she and her running mate have a bad message and are bad politicians.
ninerdave
@Jeff:
I lived in Chicago for a while so that probably doesn’t count, but I found her folksiness grating and the winking, WTF was that all about?
Chris Johnson
I’m looking forward to seeing what Tweety makes of all this. I understand he was getting a little worked up?
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
And Tom Brokaw will be moderating a presidential debate. I suspect he won’t feel as hobbled as Ifill and will help out his friend John as much as humanly possible.
gbear
Sorry for you’re crash, John. But I am so damned glad it wasn’t the other way around.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Oh wow oh wow oh wow — that CBS poll is real? It’s really real?
ninerdave
Harold Ford is a tool.
NonyNony
@Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin:
Yeah, well, Dems and the rest of the country I suppose.
I wonder if Palin will now be shuffled off to her undisclosed location to be wheeled out for campaign fundraisers and stump speeches.
If we had a functioning media in this country, these folks on the air would have to be asking how it is that a woman who can’t give an interview with Katie Couric without stumbling around could possibly perform well enough in a debate with a seasoned veteran to the point that a few of them are declaring it a ‘tie’. A little bit of reflection should point out the obvious – the Emperor has no clothes. The ‘debate’ format they use is terrible – and it has been in just about every election I’ve lived through. Just once I’d like to see a format where the moderator gets to stop them and say ‘No. You did not even try to answer the question. You need to go back and start again.’ Jim Leher tries occasionally, but it should be built into the debate rules that if you don’t answer the question and instead substitute a vaguely related talking point the moderator gets to buzz a giant buzzer and make you start from scratch.
And am I a bad citizen if I’m just not going to bother with the rest of the debates? I mean, unless some new crisis pops up between now and Nov. 4th (gods forbid)?
Doug
Her debate performance reminded me of Matt Taiibbi’s characterization of her RNC speech: "Gidget addresses the Reichstag."
Just Some Fuckhead
Somewhere Mitt Romney crushed a milk glass in his hand and bellowed, "Nooo!" Then he hatched a plan to deal with Sarah Palin and was heard urging on his minions, "Fly my winged sons, fly to her now..!"
Comrade Poopsie
I liked Bible Spice’s idea that, if elected, she would expand the powers of the Vice President. Having to answer to anyone for firing your ex-brother-in-law is just not what the Founding Fathers intended.
Scott H
Who won the debate? CNN poll of people watching the debate Biden 51% Palin 36%.
Chris Johnson
Oh, and I caught some closing statements on youtube already- a fascinating contrast between Palin blowing televangelist bullshit that’s all pandering crap and Biden pandering a little bit (obligatory) but also saying that his Dad told him when you’re knocked down, "GET UP". I thought that was a powerful little understated moment.
Just the contrast there between blahblahblah exceptionalist we will fight fight fight for all you generic wonderful people blah blah etc ad nauseam, and "get up".
I liked that.
The Thinking Man's Mel Torme
It was Begala on CNN, just before Anderson Cooper went to commercial. Begala was greeted by guffaws from the assembled Kool Kids.
As for the debate, I’m glad I take both alpha and beta blockers or all the teevee screaming I did would’ve given me a stroke.
AkaDad
Sarah Palin has just passed that certain threshold. She could clearly be President of the PTA.
demimondian
I’ve lived all over the country, and FDDD grew up in Arkansas. Palin came across as totally fake to both of us.
And the question about greatest weakness? Her answer may have worked on TV, but we were listening during dinner, and none of the four of us could make hide or hair of her answer. It sounded like total word salad without an image.
Annette
@Just Some Fuckhead:
That isn’t the way it works.
Comrade Grand Panjandrum
Biden, like Obama, was cool, calm and collected. With the exception of the moment talking about the child he was pretty cool headed and connected. He never got longwinded. Nice concise answers.
Bible Spice, like her buddy Johnny Drama, was all over the place. Johnny was sour and angry. Bible Spice was doing her best Chatty Cathy impersonation. The only difference being that Chatty Cathy had several more phrases she could repeat than Governor Palin does.
These debates are all about style and grace. That’s almost always the case and this will be no different. And "Mumbles" Brokaw makes me miss ol’ Russert.
Tonights loser was Ifill. What a pathetic performance. Jesus! I love Ifill and had hoped NBC would in a stroke of genius hire her to fill Russert’s chair but this performance tonight was fucking awful. Did she even listen to the answers given? Half the time it sounded like she was prompted to just move on to the next question.
Comrade Peter J
He has been willing to pull lies out of his ass to do so.
Tim in SF
The expectations on Palin were the lowest they’ve been since William Hung on American Idol. She did not drool on herself and she did not wander off the stage. Therefore, she won.
Was I the only one who noticed that Biden choked up at the end when talking about his kids? My heart was in my throat for a second — I thought he was going to lose it. Poor guy.
(Nice redesign, by the way, John. The comments feature is way better. BTW, RE your server crash, I think you should try cloud hosting next time. I made a little movie about it this week to explain what that is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJncFirhjPg)
Just Some Fuckhead
Gotta go with Biden. Had it a tie right up to the end when Ifill asked Biden how he kept going every day and where he found the energy to do his hair. Biden choked up a little. It really humanized him.
Chuck Butcher
If you’re a political junkie, Palin was all about nothing, that’s the thing. Media will talk about this and we junkies will nod and the audience McPalin as trying to reach isn’t in that space. They’ll buy into the weather lady not calling Kansas, Michigan and getting it right that it is daytime and smiling while she doesn’t blow it completely. The bits of red meat tossed out will work as sounding like she’s said something.
Biden won on substance, Palin survived intact which is a win from where she was.
This might have been the one VP debate that had real impact on the vote, if she’d imploded a fear factor involving a 72 year old cancer survivor Presidential candidate could have kicked in. This saved that vote shift from happening.
JHinAZ
Well, gosh darn it, God bless ya, maverick, maverick, wink-wink, soccer mom, Joe six pack, wink-wink, maverick, maverick, change, fresh face, maverick, maverick, wink-wink, god bless ya, maverick, maverick, wink.
Did I leave anything out???
Comrade Fwiffo
It’s just like "Being John Malkovich." Maverick maverick maverick maverick. Maverick maverick? Maverick maverick. Maverick maverick maverick.
She’s not faring well in the post debate polling I’ve seen so far, I don’t think her shtick worked.
jcricket
Check the CNN snap polls. Same result as Obama/McCain’s first debate:
So not only did Biden win overall (56/31 amongst all watchers), Palin achieved only a very mild uptick in support (by greatly exceeding lowered expectations), and Biden destroyed her with independents. And Biden impressed people who have been ignoring him and his occasionally great speechifying.
I expect another 3-5% move towards Obama in the swing states in the next week. Remember, if they try and trot McCain and Palin back out to counter the move, it’ll be even worse, because they’ve done worse 1-on-1 than in debates.
For the love of god – give some money to Obama/Biden and everyone else you can to crush the Republicans this election.
Comrade Warren Terra
Jeez, Doug, that Matt Taibi quote is vicious and accurate.
Brian J
As someone else said, it humanized him. It didn’t make him look weak, at least not to be, but like a person, as opposed to an android like Romney. One of the talking heads on television said it was common for him to do this in speeches, but I’ve never seen it.
harlana pepper
She’s gonna end up a televangelist in the end.
montysano
Shorter Gov. Lingle of Hawaii (R): "Please God, don’t strike me dead for coming on MSNBC and spouting this pathetic bullshit".
gbear
There you go again….
Hopefully that one pissed off the Reagan worshipers.
r€nato
I am one of those Euroweenie latte-sipping nearly-coastal intellectual city slicker elitists, but I can’t believe that small town America bought Palin’s aw-shucks down-home small town bullshit. She worked a little too hard at it, laid it on too thick.
Small town America may fall for that stuff in general, but they also know a poser when they see one.
demimondian
Actually, I think it’s more like "Being John Maverick".
Scott H
In the CNN post-debate poll 84% said Palin did better than they expected. That isn’t a good number. Bless her heart.
Comrade Scrutinizer
Just listened to a couple of clips of Palin talking about raising the white flag of surrender. That line, and the line after that about how the troops don’t need to hear that right now, didn’t work because of her accent, and the way she descended into folksiness. Those words should be in a Charlton Heston delivering the word of God from on High. They just don’t sound right when followed by "betcha by golly yah."
D-Chance.
As I noted on another board, that "gosh darn it" approach of Palin’s grew tiring after the first 5 minutes, and seemed way in appropriate when discussion weighty issues such as the bailout and foreign policy. How anyone could see her a qualified to be president (doncha know, goshdarnit) with that backwoods schoolgirl act is beyond me. In Alaska, where isolated menfolk outnumber women 3-1, that may be endearing in a "I’m innocent, come fuck me, Mr Lumberjack" kind of way; but this nation isn’t a real life Seven Brides For Seven Brothers.
Chris Johnson
I believe Renato is right here. Two years ago it might not have been that way, but post Wall street attempted bailout, it’s a problem to come off like you’re bullshitting people manically.
It’s gonna remind people of Bush, and Bush isn’t popular. McCain is actually better off there because he can be the cranky old guy. Palin is Bush with tits on meth.
Brian J
There’s a big difference between being plain spoken while still being articulate and being folksy and sounding immature and unprofessional. I’m not sure whether it was intentional or natural, but it didn’t sound particularly presidential.
Jeff
As Sully noted, where are this middle class family’s tax returns? Probably being reworked so all assets are in Todd’s name like all McCain’s are in Cindy’s.
Homer_J
When the question was about education I half expected her to start talking about Jesus and the dinosaurs living in harmony being part of the new curriculum.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@D-Chance.: MP moment:
(Damn. I like this edit feature.)
r€nato
maybe not, but the last 8 years sure made me think we were living Deliverance, and you and I and the rest of us in the reality-based community were Ned Beatty.
Comrade Grand Panjandrum
I won’t link to them, but read Malkin and Erickson (Red State). Evidently they watched the debate through some sort of phase shifting device. It’s worth a read for a good laugh.
Elroy's Lunch
I’m pretty sure that Sarah was winking at just me the whole night. I’m a sucker for that kind’a thing. Golly, it sure made me feel like they were gonna be real mavericky and all and that John McCain is a maverick and we’re all gonna get bonus points for watching the debate and well, maverick!.
Then again it may just a have been the bottle of Malbec that I worked my way through that gave me that warm glow.
Anyway, it was a very mavericky Malbec.
Delia
She did mean General McClellan. She did. She did. She was just off by a war or two.
ninerdave
Sully has some early reaction up:
Erick at Red State was surpisingly a fan of Palin’s…shocking I know!
She was relaxed? She looked like she had just done a few rails with Johnny Meth.
cain
Demi, my family and I felt the same. At times I couldn’t keep up with the answers as it was coming like a surge it was hard to keep track of what exactly she was talking about.
I also hated the way she wouldn’t actually answer a question, she’d give a word or a sentence to the answer and then change it to some talking point she wanted to bash Biden on but never came back to the question. This is where Ifill should have told her that she had not given an answer to the question. Bah.
cain
r€nato
looks like SNL this weekend is not to be missed.
Fulcanelli
Tweety for all his flaws has been around and he did pounce right off the bat at her comment about increasing the power of the VP. And rightly so, like we need a MILF Cheney in pumps with a "first dude" hubby and a minivan full of kids running around in the east wing.
And I can defintely see her going into the Senate twisting arms to get all that ‘mavericky’ legislative tax givaways to the oil companies passed.
She’d better wear fishnets and be carrying a tray of cigars and marlboros slung over her shoulder.
She’s not going anywhere… Toast.
Jeff
@Comrade Grand Panjandrum: At least the conservatives on TV are just stating she beat expectations and substantively Biden was better, excluding Pat "Hitler was not so bad" Buchanan.
r€nato
she had no fucking clue what Ifill was talking about when she asked her about her "Achilles’ heel", so she answered the question exactly the opposite of the question by talking about her strengths…
Jess
Palin was a good publicity agent promoting a really lame product. She did as well as she could have given her many limitations, and as much as I dislike her, I have to give her props for that.
I liked Biden–this is the first time I’ve heard him speak–but I wasn’t as impressed with his performance as I had hoped to be. Like many knowledgeable people, he seems to have a hard time encapsulating his points into a tidy, easily comprehended package. And no I don’t mean a "soundbite"–I’m thinking of Obama and Bill Clinton’s talent for communication.
But I’m very relieved to hear that substance appears to be winning out over sparkle.
r€nato
well good news for those fearing a Palin vice presidency, we should not relax just yet but fivethirtyeight.com has Obama with 269 electoral votes, outside of the battleground states. A tie is as good as a win since the Democrats hold the House.
I think Obama will break 300 EV. He’s starting to pull away and I don’t see what McCain could do to stop Obamamentum.
Shaggy
I was watching it on CNN and after the first half of the debate the Ohio undecided voter response had flatlined for her.
So, then I said:
DO NOT RESUSCITATE!!!
The American voter was lucky if her selected talking point overlapped at all with the question she was supposed to answer.
What a fraud.
On the other hand, with almost every question, Biden corrected her LIES, then schooled her on the correct answer, all without looking nasty.
I though he did well.
Comrade Jake
I caught the debate from a distinctly pro-Obama bar in DC. So take my commentary for what it’s worth, as I wasn’t able to hear a good deal of the debate.
I thought she did fine. She came across as confident, in spite of the nonsensical answers she provided. The global warming one seemed particularly circular. Unfortunately the bar here was set for her as anything above a train-wreck being a win, which is ridiculous, but that’s where we are. I think she managed to pull off the non-train-wreck.
So again, I don’t think this was a game-changer. And McCain needs one, desperately. By the way, when does Sarah do a press conference?
Comrade Scrutinizer
@cain: Some people over at the GOS are surprised and disappointed by Ifill’s performance tonight. I wasn’t; she was just like that in the 2004 debates.
r€nato
I’m disappointed Palin didn’t tell Joe how much she’s enjoyed listening to his Senate speeches since 1972 when she was a 2nd grader.
Comrade Grand Panjandrum
@Jeff: I would be curious to know what post debate was like on Fox.
Anyone watch Fox? (I know, its like asking if anyone watches porn.)
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Text message vote on FOX News: 87% say that Palin won!
Damn, we got creamed!
(And all the commentary is of course restricted to an analysis of the instant poll, such that no liberal bias can be injected by the pro-Democratic analysts.)
Brian J
Was he really sitting next to former Hillary Clinton supporters or whatever he characterized them as? I don’t really see what would amaze these people, should they be real, so much.
jibeaux
Did anyone else notice that when you stripped away the annoying folksyism and the talking points and the lies and the utter nonsense, what you are left with as their sales pitch to the American people is: tax cuts? I mean, that is the entire kit & kaboodle, at a time when we are, what, a trillion dollars in the hole? I mentioned that to my husband and he said: They don’t believe in anything else.
What an utterly bankrupt party.
Jeff
@Comrade Grand Panjandrum: Sorry, I’m not into S&M.
Just Some Fuckhead
I watch porn. I don’t watch Fox. I’m missing the parallel.
AkaDad
Joe Biden was so good that myiq2xu will now be supporting Obama.
Martin
Her statement after Biden gave his family history was just freaky bad. She dove right into Maverick, not even acknowledging Biden’s statement.
If anyone thought that Obama had trouble with women voters, he’ll have 112% of them after that move.
Wife and daughter dead? Um, Maverick!
r€nato
I guess there’s a lot of ways to look at it, Jake, without being a thoroughly partisan hack like the RedStaters.
You could say that Palin ‘won’ because she didn’t completely blow it.
You could also say Biden won because he came off as knowledgable without being condescending and – as many have said – he never gave the Goopers the chance to bash him for being mean or snide to Palin, as he easily could have done.
I think in times like these, the voters’ minds become a lot more focused on what really matters in our leaders. That aw-shucks winking-at-the-camera bullshit might be great for American Idol but America needs real answers. I think Americans finally get it, it’s not time for amateur hour at the White House nor at the Naval Observatory.
I score a small win for Palin that she didn’t look like a total schmuck as she did with Couric, but the overall win goes to Obama/Biden because it did nothing to change the dynamics of the race for McFailin’. The Wall Street mess last week put the nail in the GOP’s coffin. Nobody buys McCain’s "I’m going to reform Wall Street" bullshit, not after he’s been part of the crowd loudly proclaiming for an entire generation that the best thing to do is let WS do whatever the fuck it wants.
We’ve seen how that turns out. A big bubble followed by a crash and a government bailout. That’s not capitalism we can believe in, my friends.
tBone
That’s because ya don’t understand small town America, the source of all things good and Godly in this great nation of America, ya arugula-chomping elitist. But I’d like to go back to the previous question now, Gwenn, because I think it’s really important. By the way, did you know I’m from Alaska? Yep. And Barack Obama’s gonna raise yer taxes.
Brian J
That’s basically it. The absolute worst case scenario, outside of the insane asylum known as the conservative blogosphere, is that Biden and Palin were essentially tied. Even if he didn’t do anything to particularly help the ticket, he didn’t do it any harm. On the same note, Palin may have helped the ticket, but only temporarily, in the same way that time out can help slow down the other team but only temporarily.
The polls in the coming days may not be as good as most of them have been for Obama in the past few, but I doubt they will get bad. He’s definitely on the defense, having to worry about not only Missouri but Indiana and North Carolina, and I don’t see anything changing for him.
Jess
Brian J, you hit the nail on the head with your "immature and unprofessional" assessment. That’s exactly how she came across–like one of my perkier undergrads who thinks being popular is enough to get them whatever they want. Biden was absolutely right to maintain his balance of competent professionalism and avuncular indulgence. He treated her like an adorably feisty kitten and then got on with the grownup stuff, which was the perfect tactic.
Comrade Peter J
Stalkin’ Malkin wants Palin to do a cheerleader video with her and Jesse.
r€nato
fixed
Martin
Well, the culture war shit was their only other play since Reagan. It’s been tax cuts for 28 years solid now.
Comrade Jake
Ifill was a non-factor in the debate. Honestly, that’s probably the role moderators are supposed to serve. Just let each side present their points, this format didn’t leave room for much else.
I suspect Team McCain will go back to sequestering the Palin. This is likely to be a high point for her in terms of answering questions. No need to let Couric have another shot.
Lize
12 year daughter at the end of the debate:
"Mom, is a maverick a good thing? I can’t really tell."
Jeff
My favorite moments were when Biden used her own words to support his and Obama’s positions such as on civil rights for gays and the windfall profit tax.
Martin
Um, you’d be surprised how far you can get in 4 years on that alone.
Comrade Grand Panjandrum
@r€nato: I read that post earlier today. He’s using a pretty conservative benchmark (IIRC it had to be states where Obama leads by more than 5 points, no?) so things look good for the moment. But I’m sure the GOP and Johnny Drama will be running some pretty nasty ads over the next few weeks to make it a little closer. But it does appear that McCain is buckling under the pressures of the campaign and his temper is beginning to get the best of him. That Tim Dickinson article about the Make Believe Maverick is great timing. Just as the Real John McCain is being written about in the establishment media this article reinforces that storyline.
Obama looks and sounds more Presidential everyday. The first debate was a real winner for him. Most leaners and independents are now reassured that he is the Real Deal and has the bearing and demeanor to sit in the Oval Office. With all the fear mongering and crisis management of the last eight years it is very reassuring to have someone running that is thoughtful and has a firm grasp of the issues.
Tonight was a good night for Obama/Biden and by extension good for the country. Obama will be 44.
r€nato
about time America caught on.
Suggestion for web-god or -goddess ’round these parts:
lose the bold for blockquoted text. Sometimes people want to bold a word or two but they can’t do that if blockquoted text has bolding by default.
Comrade Peter J
Has anyone seen myiq0.8xu?
Comrade Grand Panjandrum
@r€nato: Whoa! When did you stop watching goat porn?
Martin
Well, in a debate where the candidates can go at each other, I’d agree. In this kind of format, the moderator has a greater role, and Gwen didn’t really follow through. The previous debate which didn’t need as much intervention due to format was better moderated. I’m glad that Lehrer nailed them to the floor on some questions – and I was getting annoyed that Obama was ducking the ‘what would you cut’ question. This debate needed some of that and it didn’t happen, unfortunately.
Just Some Fuckhead
He doesn’t comment anymore because he can’t see a thing since he started wearing Palin glasses.
Jess
tee hee! That was my first response too! OTOH he wasn’t saying watching Fox is like watching porn–just that ASKING about the one is like asking about the other, since you never know what kind of outraged response you’re going to get…
Marshall
Palin survived, which means she did OK. I look for her to be in the Senate by 2012 and to run for President in 2016. By that point, she should actually know something about the world, and, who knows, could do well.
r€nato
abso-fucking-lutely. I think when the history of this campaign is written, the last half of September will turn out to have been the (ugh I hate using this cliche) tipping point.
Voters who don’t really follow politics got to see and hear Obama speak at length. Only a partisan hack Rethuglican could not watch that and be reassured that Obama is presidential material through and through.
Everybody saw McCain run around like a chicken with his head cut off when Wall Street melted down and Hank Paulson handed his $700 BB ransom note to Congress.
Nobody knows what will happen in the next month of course but I think we are in the 7th inning with a three run lead and two men on base. Just close the deal, Barack!!!
ninerdave
@jibeaux:
It used to be Iraq and Tax cuts, be Iraq didn’t turn out too well.
ninerdave
Did I mention that the editable comments is the coolest thing about BJ 3.0?
Delia
You wanna know why she did better tonight than she did in the interviews? Josh Marshall will tell you.
And apparently she intends to keep it that way.
nicethugbert
@chrismealy:
Never in my life have I told anybody to shut up as many times as I did tonight! Oh, wait, there is Chimpy. Caribou Chimpette Barbie?
Palin is an infomercial where the product is corporate welfare and wage slavery and the price is The U.S. Constitution, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for the non-wealthy.
gbear
But she’ll still be a joke to everyone who was around in ’08. I don’t think she’ll even be a second-term governor now. She’s embarassing Alaska nationally and McCain’s troopergate team is in the process of burning every one of her political bridges that actually went somewhere.
ninerdave
@Marshall:
Well except for the fact that the GOP is for all intents and purposes is dead. Barring a complete fuckup by the Dems in the next four to eight years, she’ll need hope that another bible banging party strikes up pretty quit.
Brian J
You just reminded me of something I wanted to ask. Am I crazy, or did she connect Iran, Pakistan, and Cuba in the debate by using the names of each country’s leader?
Jeff
@Delia: I disagree. In the debate she had notes to reference. She was practically reading them at some points.
Talk about needing a teleprompter.
r€nato
don’t knock goat porn til you have tried it, right???
but seriously… I turned 43 yesterday. The first election I voted in was 1984.
With the exception of the Clinton years – GOP lite, more or less – my entire adult life so far has been lived with the GOP more or less dominating our national political life.
We have a real opportunity to begin a generation or longer of Democratic, center-left dominance of our politics and I could not be happier about that. It’s certainly going to change my outlook on life knowing that our government is being run by people who, while not perfect, are at least not bent on fucking things up and robbing it blind, people who think that we can have good government that tries to make our lives better.
Mac G
I agree about Larison and his writings remind me that there are still true conservatives out there. He criticizes Obama with merit on his record and not attacking him just to attack with Unamerican smears. He calls a spade a spade. I respect that even though I do not agree with all of his views.
The Afghanistan part was distressing and Hannity is freaking out about in on Fox News. I guess no one pays any attention to this major incident of innocent civilians being killed by US bombs.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/22/afghanistan.usa
r€nato
she did. My comment was, ‘what danger is Cuba to the US? Are they going to spike our rum? Sell us exploding cigars?’
Seriously. Hating on Cuba is soooo 1980s.
DougJ
Do you guys ever read that thing on the New York Times where Gail Collins and David Brooks discuss politics? It’s the essence of douchebaggery. It’s like a new arrangement of douchebag molecules, denser and purer than scientists thought possible. Check this out:
Gail, first, let me say that I’m always moved by your justifiable pride in the great state of Ohio. Yours is the state, after all, that gave us Victoria’s Secret and thus, the mass push-up bra. And I am not even mentioning “The Drew Carey Show,” the late Antioch College and the Ohio State football team, which has the most self-congratulatory helmet stickers of any in the country.
But when it comes to early voting, I’m afraid, this is all a mistake. Voting in the presidential election now is like voting for Oedipus in the middle of “Oedipus Rex.
[…]
I’ve spent the last two days in synagogue, trying to lobby the Big Guy for another year of sweat and toil, and the mood among my fellow congregants was grim.
My synagogue is roughly 90 percent Democrat (it’s a synagogue), so usually there is a fair bit of partisanship and general disdain for all things Republican. But this year the mood was different. There was a deeper and more pervasive foreboding, which made partisanship beside the point.
People are no longer just mad at George Bush (except the assistant rabbi, who gave a simple-minded and hyper-political sermon that could have been written by MoveOn.org). Instead, people expressed grave doubts about the whole political culture, about the House Democrats as well as the Republicans. This was an anxiety about problems that can’t be solved by an election — a sort of general bracing oneself from grim times to come, no matter who wins.
I’m sure this just proves that I hate America, but kind of society that produces and propagates this sort of wankery?
Delia
Jeff
Doesn’t matter if she was reading her notes or not. She didn’t have anyone doing hard follow-up questions on her. That’s where she got trapped in the Gibson and Couric interviews.
r€nato
how fucking predictable. Yes, Virginia, the US of A makes special bombs that never ever kill innocent civilians and nobody ever makes a mistake in targeting them or uses faulty intelligence.
Jesus. Innocents get killed in wars, even by Americans. That’s a far different thing than saying we intentionally killed them, but to the wingnutosphere it’s like a goddamned Indiana Jones movie where only the bad guys ever get killed.
gbear
The first election I voted in was for McGovern in 1972. Don’t get your hopes up too high. ;)
AkaDad
In other words, Liberal Fascism.
Craig
What I never hear is a serious statement from McCain or his people on why McCain is running for president. All we hear is boilerplate about change and being an outsider which only creates ’tilt’ in my poor brain cells.
So we have to judge McCain by his record…and his VP choice.
The debate: Joe Biden was the real thing tonight.
And Sarah? She was that irritating overly sweet saleslady who sticks her foot in the door trying to sell you something you don’t need. She’s got the script down pat and if you ask her anything not in the script, she just winks and smiles and repeats some of the script until you hand over the five dollars to get rid of her.
McCain had many capable men and women he could have chosen from. I do not understand his choice. Think of the horror: even Quayle would have been an improvement.
In the worst year yet of the American crisis that began in 2003, is this the best the Republicans can offer us? Do they even understand where we are and what their role was in it?
jnfr
Just another note for the programmer/designer (sorry thread people) – this thread I was seeing the black box at post 96, but when I scrolled down my font size to an unreadable size, the box went away – at least up to post 114 which is the last post before I am posting this.
Just a bit of helpful sleuthing that may someday allow me to read full threads in my desired font size. Carry on.
handy
Paleocons are a dying breed. Sorry for the pun.
ninerdave
Who’ll be the first wingnut blogger to call him out for faking?
My wife got teary when he did that.
Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin
Aboard Hockey Mom One:
"Oh, stewardess, I speak Frontier Gibberish."
r€nato
if that’s what they want to call it, let them. I’ll wear that badge proudly. At least "Liberal Fascism" believes that we really can make things better, and for everybody.
Beats the fuck out of Conservative Fascism whose philosophy is, ‘we can’t make things better and we shouldn’t even try, so let’s steal as much as we can while the getting’s good and screw over everyone else.’
Seriously. It’s that simple. Win-win versus zero-sum.
ninerdave
Test:
GOP
gop
Why do I get two different fonts when I type one in caps and the other in lowercase
Brian J
That’s pre-9/11 thinking, right there.
Martin
Assuming nothing changes here in the last month, I think this has to go down as the most masterful presidential campaign of nearly the last century.
Black guy with the same middle name as a muslim dictator comes largely from nowhere to take out one of the most politically entrenched families of the last 50 years, one of the most broadly popular Senators who was a famous POW, along the way dealing with an angry black pastor, setting new records at voter involvement, and managing to do it all without a whisper from within the campaign – no personality conflicts, no scandals, and never losing his direction. The campaign is working off the same staff and the branding and message that it had over a year ago.
I mean, if you really think about this compared to Clinton and McCain and to races in the past, this is absolutely unreal. About the only thing missing is being shot in the chest and then giving a 90 minute speech.
Polish the Guillotines
When Caribou Barbie tosses around the word "naieve", why do I think that two weeks ago she thought it was a brand of perfume?
Forget about any insta-polling. Wait until Monday after Tina Fay’s had her shot at the debate.
ninerdave
@Craig:
Seriously the winking thing got to me, you’re applying for the second highest job in the US. Winking is beyond unprofessional, it’s demeaning to the office.
I hire a lot of people in my gig, and if some folksy ass idiot came in and winked at me, they’d be shown the door immediately.
Delia
Well, not to play the blame game or anything, but Caribou Barbie was definitely not reading from her note cards when she said General McClellan said the surge would work in Afghanistan. No, she was just making stuff up. Once again TPM is on the case.
Key excerpt:
jcricket
If Palin on the national stage in 2012 or 2016 (maybe Alaska Senator, but not VP or President again) I expect an even greater shellacking than they’re getting this year.
Same deal with Gingrich or even Huckabee running (although the latter is folksy without being an idiot).
If the Republicans again run farther to the right, thinking that’s what cost them this election, I welcome that trend.
Brian J
One of my favorite comments from one my favorite teachers ever concerned Cuba. This guy first taught me in AP European History, but he gave us the book to use at home and did almost all supplementary stuff in class. The topics often veered off course, but that wasn’t a bad thing. I don’t remember exactly how Cuba came up, but my teacher, who was a massive guy who played rugby in college, gave us this half sarcastic half exasperated look and said, "What the hell is Cuba going to do? Sail its two-boat navy into Miami and then try to march to Washington? I mean, really, where do these guys get this crap?"
ninerdave
That’s exactly what she was doing when Biden was talking, selecting a card with a response and memorizing it.
She was talking verbatim from those cards as Tina Fey was on SNL reciting Palin’s answer to Couric about the bailout.
Polish the Guillotines
ETA to Black Wall of Death: 28 comments.
Brian J
Okay, maybe I’m dumb, but I don’t see how to finalize the edited comments.
handy
Cubs, really, why even bother. Effin’ choke artists.
Oh, yeah, sorry: Obama Biden ’08.
ninerdave
Can we have an open thread to report bugs? Maybe stickied to the top of the front page for a bit?
Would be nice instead of posting in the middle of other threads and give us a chance to see if a particular bug has been found yet.
Bug: blockquotes cannot have a line break in them.
Shows up fine in preview
Soylent Green
You can’t seriously believe that McCain would let her anywhere near the levers of power. She would never be anything but window dressing, just as she is now, with no connection to policy. Her VP role would be limited to greeting officials and attending funerals — basically a glorified first lady. She would probably spend most of her time in her house back in Wasilla (while billing the taxpayers for the per diem).
In short, Palin would be a forgotten nobody as VP.
The nightmare begins when McCain kicks. Then nothing can save us.
ninerdave
@Brian J:
You don’t have to, after 5 minutes, the just become permanent.
Comrade Kevin
There should be a ‘save’ button on the Web 2.0-y thingamabob that pops up where you edit it.
Polish the Guillotines
(Watching the replay with my wife)
Here it comes: "Shout out to all the third graders at Gladys-something elementary school."
And at this point my wife asks to turn the channel: "We’re gonna put that redneck bitch and her preggo daughter in the White House? Time to look for real estate in New Zealand."
Well then. ‘Nuff said.
The Other Steve
Didn’t McClellan say the same thing about Antietam?
And to give you an idea of just how stupid Republicans are… Here’s the edit.
The Other Steve
That was the point Sarah Palin lost the election for John McCain.
Polish the Guillotines
If I get the damned links working…
Your concerns are addressed here.
ninerdave
@Delia:
Not to mention she got the name wrong: General McKiernan is the commander in Afganistan
ninerdave
@Delia:
Not to mention she got the name wrong: General McKiernan is the commander in Afganistan
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
AHA! I get the Black Wall of Death if I have Greasemonkey enabled on FF 3.0, but when it’s turned off, all is well.
EDIT: Not quite correct. Having Greasemonkey turned off just pushes the BWOD a little further down the page instead of vanquishing it. Crap.
(On this page, I can see this last comment just before the BWOD when Greasemonkey is disabled. When it’s enabled, it appears up around comment 141.)
Delia
Before we reach the Black Hole at the End of the Thread, I would like to point out that Americablog has a nice summary of the reviews of the debate, and consensus is in — Biden won decisively.
Polish the Guillotines
Woah! The Black Wall of Death has encroached onto the comments box! Run for your lives!
But seriously — Annette: It looks like this thing is developing from the bottom of the page upward, if that’s of any use in figuring out the problem.
ninerdave
@Polish the Guillotines:
Yeah but that would require your house to be worth enough to sell. Thankfully the Bush administration has devised a plan to keep us all where we’re at until we go bankrupt. In which case you’ll have no money to move.
Mwangangi
Yeah, I get the ‘event horizon from which no comment returns’ if I use FireFox. Since the upgrade, I can only read all the comments with Chrome.
Polish the Guillotines
(shifting to the dreaded IE7 to outrun the Black Wall)
The one that creeped me out was her crack about there being a "place in heaven" for Biden’s (current) wife. Just knowing his first wife died made that seem really crass.
cain
Malkin sez this;
What the hell.. Malkin has the political analytical skills of a grade school cheerleader. Jeezus. Maybe she should look at the polls some more and analyze the gaps between her opinion and the opinion of others and figure out why she’s wrong.
Right. Never mind. :)
cain
handy
This black wall thing reminds me of the Pacman screen of death.
Or something out of a Terry Gilliam movie.
Polish the Guillotines
I was kinda thinking it was like the planet killer from the original Star Trek series.
Tsulagi
“Not a disaster” pretty much is the best complement and description of Palin’s performance. I give it a two-winks up. Without looking at the righty sites or Fox I’m sure that translates into a knockout punch of awesome.
Not so sure she wowed the Independents or even more moderate Republicans. My dad, who almost certainly will vote McCain, called after the debate. He said at first he thought she was doing pretty well, but by the end she was grating on him.
Annette
The designer is going to be looking more into the black wall when the comments reach some arbitrary number. That’s not my thing. I passed along the recurrence to her this evening while monitoring the serer and thread lengths.
Polish the Guillotines
Mission Accomplished.
Polish the Guillotines
Thanks! Oh, and truly great work. This site’s a-rockin’.
YellowJournalism
Basically, what I got out of the debate was that John McCain tapped her, repeatedly.
cain
Server was definitely was feeling sluggish. I think I had one instance where i couldn’t reach the server. But other than that it seemed okay. I’m not sure where the bottleneck is, but I’m sure you know what to do to improve it. :)
cain
gopher2b
I watched the Cubs competely fucking implode instead of the debate. From what I did see, Palin was better at debating than the Cubs were at baseball.
Fuck it. Both contests are over. Chicago is going to win one of them. It’s done.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Posting from IE 6, which totally HATESES this site. Page down/up and home keys don’t work, and the main page and every comment page take almost a full minute to load. I have ads blocked on FF, but not on iE. Is it the ads alone that are killing any attempt to load the site?
Or should I just get Chrome already?
gopher2b
You are 100% wrong. She’s in way over her head; she’s not dumb. Stevens is this close ".." to going to jail. Either way, she beats him for the Senate seat and returns in 2016 for a run (I imagine in 2012, everything will be going good enough [whether Obama gets credit for it or not]) that few people will want to run for it.
Bob In Pacifica
No wonder why things are going badly in Afghanistan. We’ve got the Army of the Potomac fighting the war there.
Annette
Peak load topped at 60 when some (*% sent one of their scraper bots at about the midpoint of the debate. Other than that, general (and expected) bit of slowness due to the increased activity. I was monitoring several other, non-local-to-us sites as well, and based on the intermittent issues at those sites (along with a complete outage at C&L for several minutes), I’m quite pleased that you all didn’t melt the server. This server topped out at the height of the debate at about 5 Mps – it was the highest usage of any of the servers where we have other very active sites with people who were also liveblogging.
Martin
Ted Stevens is even closer to not being in the senate in Jan:
Research 2000 for Daily Kos. 9/15-17. Likely voters. MoE 4% (7/14-16 results)
Stevens ( R ) 44 (45)
Begich ( D ) 50 (47)
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Yikes, the black bar has taken over my comment box! I didn’t see it before, for some reason (widescreen monitor, maybe?).
Anyway, I’m watching the debate replay, and I didn’t notice the first time when Palin said that "paying taxes isn’t patriotic, what’s patriotic is saying that, ya know, somettimes government isn’t the probsolution, sometimes government is the problem!"
Whhat? It’s patriotic to say that government is bad? It’s patriotic not to pay taxes? What the fuck?
The post has been typed completely blind, without seeing any of my typing at al. How’d I do?
cain
So you’re saying that Balloon-Juice has become somewhat of a popular blog? :) I must admit though I expect more comments. I suppose more people were doing more refreshes than posting.
cain
YellowJournalism
I cannot stand the way the woman keeps saying "John McCain" over and over again. The way she pronounces it makes my skin crawl. Now I know what the Hillary haters were feeling.
Also, I don’t get why more people aren’t offended by the term "Joe Six-Pack." It’s as if she’s saying the "common people" are a bunch of drunks. Sadly, many cannot afford to buy beer as of late unless the can has some sort of animal on it.
Polish the Guillotines
He shoots…. He scores!
Martin
The word she said most frequently: "also"
She’s like a writer with an adverb disorder.
Annette
I’d say it’s in our top 30 in terms of traffic. Still not quite up where Benen and Drum were when they were here before leaving their archives in place and heading for their new gigs, but heading into that range.
gopher2b
Good point. For some reason, I had it in my head that he was up in 2010. Here’s my prediction: If his verdict comes in during the next three weeks, he withdraws and Palin replaces him (if that’s legal) as the Senate nominee and she runs both as VP and Senate nominee.
West Coast libertarian
I am using Opera and have not seen the Black Wall. Perhaps it’s a browser compatibility thing.
cain
The great orange satan has a post where they fed the transcript into a tag cloud and got this:
!http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/3/0223/35665/837/618518!
ninerdave
@Martin:
Tina Fey picked up on that, watch her Couric parody when she does the almost verbatum response to the bailout bill, she ends with "also".
Hysterical I tell ya!
Gotta admit, I never liked Tina Fey until Palin.
cain
The great orange satan has a post where they fed the transcript into a tag cloud and got this
BTW I thought we could do a link with ! on either end of the link, but it didn’t seem to work.
cain
cain
Cool.. not sure we all want to BJ to be that popular!
cain
Martin
That’s so over-the top!
Oh, wait…
Frita
Bush in a skirt. That’s all she is.
Don’t be fooled by her act to be ‘down home’. She supports more war and more of the same policies that got us into this mess.
Check out BushInaSkirt.com
rachel
I’m using Opera, and I haven’t seen anything resembling this "Black Wall of Death" that people keep talking about.
Big E
Debate happened as I expected, Biden winning on policy and knowledge, Palin sort of on ‘style’ [if you like her rap].
Blue, is the color that is spreading on the electoral map… Republicans may complain and spew might blasts of invective, but, it will not change the reality of the upcoming election. No doubt Republicans will get uglier as the election nears, it will not help McCain.
Obama’s statement: ‘They are proud of their own ignorance" still holds true.
Delia
I just switched from Firefox to IE7 and found my way out of the Black Wall of Death. I hate IE, though. And now I’m sleepy and will just have to shut everything down anyhow.
It’s good to know that Palin and McCain have everything under control with the Civil War, though, and are communicating with General McClellan on the ground. Ya gotta give them that.
jcricket
I don’t think she’d do that, because that would create a vacancy
Stevens won’t step down, he’s like Larry Craig, with less foot-tapping and more free home remodeling.
Begich will win, more narrowly than he should, but whatever.
Alaska will remain a corrupt, federal-tax-sucking backwater that will hopefully become less and less important as we move to renewable energy.
Best thing we could ever do, as liberals, to make Republicans STFU is pass a law saying no state can get more money (total) from the feds than they put in the system. Red States would immediately be in a massive hole, and would only be able to dig out by taxing themselves.
Oh the irony.
jcricket
You know, I’m beginning to enjoy the echo chamber the righties live in. It prevents them from seeing the masses no longer buy the Republican story, which is why they will keep losing.
Let Malkin, Instaputz, Coulter, Limbaugh, etc. preach to the 26% crowd. Let them think it’s just the liberal media that keeps the "truth" from getting out there. Fine by me.
ninerdave
@jcricket:
+1
And that’s not the amount of drinks I’ve had, that’s an endorsement.
aarrgghh
from the folks at free republic:
which reminded me of an old subway ad from the 90s that caught my eye one day:
the messaging doesn’t get much simpler than that, does it?
TenguPhule
There’s no call to insult the fucking Cubs like that.
Conservatively Liberal
If I reduce my font size to 50%, I can see the whole page and comment box (like now) but I need an electron microscope to read the page.
Like Mr. Horse said: No sir, I don’t like it.
Fix ur blog Cole! :)
Conservatively Liberal
Also, the buttons are still above the comment box (plus the text explanation). Odd.
zuzu
Ifill was a class act per usual.
Of course you will only get this sort of disingenuous, dishonest, vile, crapola from Malkin et al:
Malkin
What a disgusting excuse for a human being.
zuzu
Whaaa … ? What happened to my blockquote? Dang.
Okay, from Malkin:
"As for Gwen ‘Age of Obama’ Ifill, she behaved herself for the most part. She was duly chastened."
Eccchhh, I feel gross just writing it.
DBrown
The race is over – McInsane’s gamble has crapped out. Even his piss boy Krauthammer has now said in (todays) WP that Obama will win the Presidency. Read his short article and read why Obama will win (many of his points are right on). When the last McCain lover has conceeded defeat, you know that McInsane will pull out all stops and become the mentally unstable, unhinged loon that we have all learned to love. Get ready for the true southern type attacks to begin. McCain has lost.
bago
It’s Firefox, and people that think netscape makes them invincible. There’s an obvious script injection attack allowed that only FF2 renders.
zuzu
So just wondering if anyone’s pointed out that Palin’s big ending was a quote from Reagan … warning about Medicare:
"(Reagan) no doubt terrified many of his listeners with his conclusion, telling them that if they did not prevent the passage of Medicare, ‘one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free. ‘ "
"Operation Coffeecup": Reagan, the AMA, And the First ‘Viral Marketing’ Campaign … Against Medicare
JGabriel
All over the blogosphere there’s commentary that Palin "exceeded expcectations". I don’t get it. Everyone expected a "trainwreck", and she didn’t deliver.
Nervous, clumsily flirtatious, mediocrity is not "exceeding expectations", folks! It’s par.
.
JGabriel
I’m intrigued by the CBS poll results on the VP debate. Uncommitted voters, 46% said Biden won, 33% said it was tied, and 21% said Palin won.
Think about that for a moment:
In a two person contest, Palin came in third.
.
JGabriel
George Bush’s lowest ever approval rating, as far as I know, has been 22%.
That means more people approve of the job George Bush is doing on his worst day, than thought Sarah Palin won this debate.
.
Rick Taylor
It wasn’t a matter of Palin meeting or not meeting expectations, it was purely a function of the moderator. Couric asked follow-up questions and wasn’t satisfied when Palin didn’t answer her, while Gwen Ifill didn’t. It’s simple as that.
Couric’s level of questioning ought to be the standard for the bare minimum of competent journalism, but alas in our current culture it’s now considered outstanding. Or, if you’re a Republican, it’s considered unfair gotcha journalism.
Aaron
Bush in a skirt!! Say it ain’t so!!…Palin not only has an adverb disorder, ALSO she can’t pronounce "NUCLEAR". I can’t believe we have another moron in national politics that has the onions to talk on national television, about such a serious topic they can’t even pronounce. Thankfully, in one month, we won’t have to see either one again!!
Steve V
This might be oh-so 2004, but I am troubled by the GOP’s ability to advocate for tax cuts during a time of war without being called on it. I had hoped that Obama-Biden could find a way to throw McCain’s tax-cut promises back in his face with a strongly worded reminder about what Iraq has cost and how irresponsibly it’s been financed. There were times during last night’s debate I really wanted to hear Biden say something along these lines, but it appears that the Obama campaign thinks this won’t play with the public, or something.
I have GOP-leaning relatives who can, almost in the same breath, complain about the weakness they perceive in opponents to the war, and then get all dour about the possibility that a tax increase might be coming (and talk about their plans to realize any capital gains before the next administration takes office, lest their taxes on said gains be increased). They are utterly unwilling to countenance the notion that they should pay for the war.
The notion that paying taxes can be patriotic ought to have some salience while we’re fighting a tremendously expensive war. The irresponsibility inherent in Bush’s approach to financing the war should be a matter of basic common sense and should be something that the GOP and McCain can be ridiculed for, even during an election season. Oh well, I guess the tax-cut drumbeat overrides all.