Does anyone have a rundown on what exactly Justice did with the AP from a non-hysterical source? I generally tend to find that kind of thing disconcerting, but there has just been so much bullshit out there the last couple of years I’d like to know more. As an example of the hysterical bullshit, I’ve read all through the Rosen stuff, and it looks to me like a comically inept Fox “journalist” decided he could personally run our foreign policy with the right leaks slanted the right way and the feds, who are interested in leaks whether they be some Murdoch asshat or Aldrich Ames selling info to the Russians, got a little het up about this nonsense from Rosen and asked for a warrant, it was issued, and it seems like everything was done in accordance with the law. It’s hardly an example of an overreaching government crashing in on press freedoms.
That’s my take on that, but I would like to know more about the AP story.
Oh, and here is Karl Rove’s fanboi, Ron Fournier, bringing the yuks:
George W. Bush in 2001 declared war on a tactic (terrorism), and empowered Big Brother to tap phones, launch drones, and indefinitely imprison people without due process.
Barack Obama in 2008 declared those Bush policies an overreach, and pledged to curb drone strikes, protect media freedoms, and close the prison at Guantanamo Bay. Instead, he escalated drone strikes and spied on the media. Gitmo is still open for its grim business.
These are facts. And yet, they are distorted by extreme and narrow-minded partisans, supporters of both Bush and Obama.
Any want to deal with that pile of bilge?
dance around in your bones
No.
Apocalypse Now Redux coming up on AMC – I hear the helicopters!
This is The End.
ruemara
No. thank you. My life is drowning in bilge already. And everything I’ve read has made me want to smack Rachel Maddow for the mindless “AP is right because JOURNAMALISM”. If it wasn’t right in the Plame case, how is this right?
MikeJ
Actually Obama didn’t “spy on the media”. They got warrants. The courts found it serious enough to issue the warrants (which were pen registers, not taps, IIRC).
cathyx
What part of this isn’t true?
Baud
Balloon Juice is my non-hysterical source for news.
So, no.
belieber
If you don’t like reading hysterical bullshit then why do you still worship Greenwald?
Just Some Fuckhead
Why couldn’t this be an easy one like how to boil an egg or the best software to rip and convert music.
Baud
@cathyx:
Did Obama pledge to curtail drone strikes? I don’t remember that.
Litlebritdifrnt
OT but I posted downstairs on the dead thread
Would Sooner or someone else address this issue for me please, i.e. the VA disability backlog. When someone retires (after 20 or 30 years) they are advised to immediately apply for disability why? Cause every % of disability they get makes that % of their retirement untaxable, and the dirty little secret every % designated disability is $ that he doesn’t have to pay to the ex-wife. Every single person who leaves the military (no matter how many years served) is told to apply for VA disability no matter how slight the injury (example female who worked at our office had 10% of the knee after 4 years in netting her $95.00 per month) This is why there is a backlog, not cause guys who had their legs blown off are clogging up the system. Why will the media not report this basic fact when reporting on the VA backlog?
MikeJ
@cathyx: I don’t recall Obama pledging to curb drone strikes. He did promise to get us out of Iraq, which he did. He did everything he could about Gitmo. And as I said in #3, he didn’t “spy” on the media. The court system allowed the FBI to investigate a criminal case, just like the 4th Amendment allows.
Svensker
@ruemara:
Sorry to hear about your job. Hope something turns up for you.
Marc
It’s nice to see the media have finally decided that Gitmo is an abomination and should be closed.
It’s a shame that they only decided this in 2013.
It’s no surprise that they decided this when they could blame it on Obama, who is literally the only person in our government who wanted to close Gitmo and has been for years.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Nice elision between “wire tapping”, actually “warrentless wire tapping”, and “spied on the media”, which means warrants and subpoenas in order to review phone records of reporters (for the record, I don’t like the DOJ conduct in either case, and the language regarding Rosen is kinda scary and could set a bad precedent). He left out that pesky minor detail about “invading a non-threatening country under false pretenses” as both the Village and the “Obama is just like Bush!” crowd usually do. Just a little blip on the radar of our collective memory.
And I return to my hobbyhorse: If sources and confidentiality are sacred, then abusing that confidentiality is a grievous sin (See also, too, Plame). I’ll take these preening assholes seriously when they start calling for Jonathan Karl– just for starters– to name the source that used him.
And finally, dear media types who seem genuinely confused that the public isn’t rallying to your side: It’s because you’re overpaid, self-righteous, smug, lazy, arrogant and in general you suck ass.
Marc
(Okay, he had six senators who tried to do the right thing, so that’s a Joe Biden “literally.” The point stands.)
Hill Dweller
@Marc:
No they didn’t. It’s a means to an end(attacking Obama).
ruemara
@Svensker: I’m over 40, female, black, work in the media field, don’t look like Halle Berry, can’t afford to retrain and have health issues. to quote Dazzler, “I’d be safer eating plutonium”. Thanks for your good wishes. I’ll do something.
Hunter Gathers
A non-hysterical source? Not. Gonna. Happen. It would be easier to find a sabermatrician who doesn’t display a metric ton of butt-hurt whenever someone questions the wisdom of evaluating players based completely on their walk percentage. Or find one who hasn’t sucked Bryce Harper’s dong while simultaneously jerking off Stephen Strasberg.
kwAwk
Here’s the thing I agree whole heartedly with the first paragraph about George W. Bush.
The second about Obama is partially true. For the part about drones, Obama is guilty as charged. The part about the spying on the media is true but with the caveat that these activities were conducted by the Justice department and as long as the laws are on the book the lawyers at Justice are going to use them. If Obama were to intervene and tell Justice they can’t use these laws then Republicans would accuse Obama of interfering with Justice Dept investigations.
The part about Gitmo is bogus as Obama has tried multiple times to close the facility only to be thwarted by the Congress.
For the AP scandal, there was a leak related to drone strikes and planned terrorist attacks. Eric Holder was somehow implicated in the possible release of the leak, so he appointed an independent investigator to review the leak. That investigator legally targeted the phone records of a large number of AP employees. Office, cell and personal records.
different-church-lady
Oh you joker. They got rid of all the non-hysterical sources back in the 20th century.
David Koch
Fournier’s rag has the grand circulation of …. wait for it…. 15,000.
Pffft. Even the liberal New Republic’s paltry 50,000 subscribers laughs at them.
JWL
I’d like to read an expose about wire tapping/surveillance that occurred during the Bush-Cheney administration.
Does anyone doubt it was more egregiously applied during those years? If you do, then ask yourself why the congressional GOP isn’t squawking any louder about it? Virtually all the noise is from their propaganda outfits in their/corporate media organs.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
As for the AP story, I read this a few days back, but it might be what you’re looking for. Pincus actually talks about the substance, and effect, of the original story instead of getting caught up in some Romantic ideal of his profession, maybe because he has actually practiced it, unlike Chuck Todd, Joe Scarborough or Luke Russert.
.
MikeJ
@kwAwk:
It’s not just a law, it’s in the constitution. If you want to investigate someone and need private info to do it, the 4th Amendment says that’s perfectly acceptable as long as you go to the courts first.
ChrisNYC
From what I know, this wsj article seems fairly solid, as to what the DOJ did.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324715704578481461374133612.html
This Guardian one as well:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/13/america-government-associated-press-phone-records
The only thing the wsj article doesn’t address is the not giving notice to AP. DOJ is allowed to get the records without notice if giving notice would jeopardize the investigation.
This WP post is also informative as to the original story in the AP, the agreement not to publish, etc:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/13/heres-the-story-the-ap-suspects-led-to-sweeping-justice-dept-subpoena/
And definitely read the original AP piece, can’t find it at the moment.
jl
I tried to read the Ron Fournier link and it makes no sense and distorted just about everything.. Some kind of mad dog smash mouth centrism Fournier is trying to dish out, there.
The excerpt Cole posted makes no sense.
different-church-lady
@Baud:
Yeah, he did. Granted, he only did it just a few days days ago…
Gopher2b
@MikeJ:
No warrants, just subpoenas. But, you’re right it’s still not spying.
ChrisNYC
And here are two on the original plot.
First the AP piece which is all “there was a PLOT”
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-05-07/al-qaeda-bomb-plot-foiled/54811054/1
And then the reveal, the NYTimes reports that the guy who was sent to get an new style underwear bomb was a Saudi agent — puts the concern of the admin in a new light since the operation was ongoing when the AP was wanting to report.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/world/middleeast/suicide-mission-volunteer-was-double-agent-officials-say.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1&
Culture of Truth
I’ve been trying to follow this issue, because I’m interestered in media legal rights, etc., but I also am inherently skeptical of stories vehemently declaring Obama worse than Bush, or Satan, or at least better than Bush, particularly reporting from media reporting on itself, in the case of the AP, literally. These people are thin skinned drama queens and kings, to put it mildly. And Fournier is the guy who wrote love notes to Karl Rove. So, no I don’t trust their version of events.
But at a minimum, Obama didn’t pledge to limit drone strikes, he didn’t spy on the media, and he’s tried to close Gitmo. Oh, and Ron Fournier is a ridiculous person.
Davis X. Machina
Try Drum.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
This piece from Jack Shafer at Reuters seems non-hysterical. It doesn’t say all that much about the AP angle, but it does give a plausible explanation why the Obama Administration was furious about the leaks. The AP story seems to have been just a small part of it.
Cheers,
Scott.
Anoniminous
Dear Journalanimists,
You are not above the law.
You do not get to decide what the law is.
You, like every other citizen, must take the legal consequences of your actions.
You knob-slobbed the Patriot Act and the massive reductions of Civil and Personal liberties and freedoms contained therein.
Deal with it.
Hill Dweller
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Here is another good one from Pincus on the Rosen “controversy”.
Culture of Truth
Also James Rosen tried to get classified information so he could influence government policy. Well, fine, but…. also despite all the panicking he hasn’t been charged with anything.
ChrisNYC
There is something really weird about the original story. The full original AP piece sources to a “former CIA agent” who would not be named because of an “ongoing operation.” Well, former agent, what are you doing talking about an ongoing operation where there is a spy who has infiltrated and his task is to bring back a bomb? Puts your colleague in some danger, no? I don’t know if there was political motivation to the leak, i.e. Kenyan usurper, but very weird behavior.
Hal
Rachel Maddow keeps covering this issue as if the media lives in a shining tour of virtue. I’ve felt there is something very masterbatory about the press reporting on itself.
Suffern ACE
Jeebus. They really want to bury the war in Iraq and claim that the war on terror had nothing to do with that. Remember how Sadam and 9/11 were supposed to be related and the administration was willing to throw off “old europe” allies for “new europe”? Freedom fries? No overreach there. If you take out the damn war and occupation, the war on terror Bush conducted looks an awful lot like that of Clinton or one that even Carter would have conducted.
If you take out the war in Iraq, Bush looks bad for Katrina and Schivo but you might give him a pass because his response to 9/11 was “measured.”
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The Pincus piece is good. Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suffern ACE:
If you ignore the shooting, the Lincolns’ night at Ford Theater was quite pleasant.
Mandalay
@Anoniminous:
I just learned a new verb. This place really is a center of learning.
David Koch
the part I don’t get is how Liberals blew a gasket when Valerie Plame’s was leaked but now support similar leaks.
lojasmo
@kwAwk:
Well that was not wat your were seeking.
Subponead AP phone records.
Didn’t IMMEDIATLY notify the AP.
End of story.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Hill Dweller:
I add my thanks for the link to the Pincus piece.
TG Chicago
@different-church-lady: Thus Fournier is lying when he says Obama said he’d curb drone strikes in 2008.
I’m kind of a Greenwald guy (sorry, folks!), so I think I’d remember if Obama had pledged to curb drone strikes in 2008. I’d have to believe Greenwald would bring it up constantly.
Alex
Long story short, the DoJ overstepped and took actions that were beyond normal*. With the AP, they had a very sweeping phone records log (not wiretaps) and with Rosen they went a bit far in their language when getting a warrant.
However, their actions were entirely legal because the general law covering this sort of stuff is very old and gives a lot of leeway to the government. It’s also a matter of the journalism industry not catching up to the idea that electronic stuff is very easy to track. Emails and phone records are very easy to obtain, but journalists believe they aren’t so freak out when they find out it’s very easy to obtain.
The main annoyance is that journalists aren’t even trying to pretend that this is a huge issue for anyone who isn’t a journalist. So it feels like a lot of “Obama is worse than Hitler because he is being mean to me”. Or the flip side where they suddenly care deeply about the DoJ and prosecutions now that it might matter to them.
Or the sheer annoyance of saying that any of these cases involve “warrantless wiretapping” when neither of them does.
* Of course, in the Bush years they didn’t bother with getting warrants or any other legal steps. So normal is relative to the Obama administration.
TG Chicago
@Marc:
Not literally, no.
EDIT — Oops, now I see that you retracted this “literally”. Nevermind!
Suffern ACE
And also, Jeebus. Gitmo was very much central to the GWOT under Bush. Absolutely central to the policy. Yes, it is open. And it is an illegal prison. BUT who has Obama been sending there? Has he been sending anyone there? He hasn’t been releasing people quickly enough, but for goodness sake, the problem with Gitmo under Bush was that 700 people were taken there and tortured. It was not just a maximum security prison that just happened to be in Cuba.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
LOL. Just words.
MikeJ
@TG Chicago:
Biden literal, not literal literal. Meaning “as near as dammit.”
Omnes Omnibus
FWIW I am in favor of some form of limited journalist-source privilege, but such a thing does not currently exist. As the Pincus piece mentioned, there is always a tension between national security needs and the public’s right to know. If information is leaked, the government is going to want to know from were it came. As long as the means used are within the law, I do not see a scandal. If there is a perception that the means available to the administration are too powerful, then work to have them curbed – for example by adopting a shield law or journalist-source communications as privileged (thus my comment comes full circle).
Todd
@Litlebritdifrnt:
It’s worse than that. There are some real dodgy formulae in DFAS pamphlets that would take pages for me to describe.
raven
@Litlebritdifrnt: And I’ll ask you again, advised by who?
Villago Delenda Est
@Hill Dweller:
This, this, this.
This is all about the offal of the Village going after “that one”.
TG Chicago
@jl: Probably a semantic point, but I think the Fournier’s excerpt makes sense. However, it includes untruths and distortions in order to make an untrue and distorted point.
And this comes from someone is is not thrilled with Obama in this arena. This is the thing that firebagger-bashers miss. Folks like Greenwald and Hamsher actually link to specific facts. Fournier just says a bunch of stuff that’s clearly not true.
John O
Those ARE facts. But other facts include Obama’s recent speech which seems to me to be a recognition and admission that the policies are an overreach, and that Obama was about the only guy in the entire Federal apparatus that wanted to close Gitmo at the time, so he couldn’t, largely due to what is now SOP GOP whining.
And all POTUS’ are lousy civil libertarians, IMO. Something about wanting the job in the first place?
different-church-lady
@TG Chicago: @Baud: And the only reason he did it now was so he could betray the professional punched hippies again.
Litlebritdifrnt
@raven:
The exit counsellors. 100% of the time.
TG Chicago
@David Koch: Leaks about government lies and malfeasance are good leaks. Leaks about secret government actions that are legal and helpful are bad leaks.
Redshirt
Both sides do it!
Which is a central plank to Republican attempts to destroy us. To wit – they act like crazy assholes, and blame the other side of the same (denying their own behaviors, of course). Joe Plumber Sixpack gets disgusted with politics and tunes out, or blames whoever is easiest to blame. Which is liberals, also of course.
And thus we spiral ever down.
raven
@Litlebritdifrnt: So are we saying these troopers don’t deserve it? If they don’t file do they lose their chance? What do you think should be done?
different-church-lady
@Suffern ACE:
But Bush never promised to close it. Therefore Obama is worse than Bush.
What? That makes less sense than half the shit on the rec list at Daily Kos?
David Koch
@different-church-lady:
/fixed
Baud
OT: Twitter reporting explosion in Disneyland.
BillinGlendaleCA
@raven: The impression I got from the kid, it’s SOP as part of the discharge.
smintheus
I don’t remember Fournier complaining about any of those things while Bush was president. In fact, he went as lightly as possible on Bush and those policies on the occasions when he referenced them. I did a quick search of ‘Fournier’ and ‘wiretap’, and couldn’t find anything remotely as pointed as today’s screed in his post 2001 oeuvre.
matt
I don’t recall Obama ever pledging to curb drone strikes. Is he lying or is there some case of Obama doing so?
Litlebritdifrnt
@raven:
I am saying that the press are reporting this as if it is 100% of troops with their limbs blown off, not true a bunch of the claims are guys trying to get out of paying alimony.
Baud
@Baud:
Twitter now saying dry ice in plastic bottle.
MikeJ
@Baud: Was it the Dickies?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@matt:
The only references I could find were to Obama pledging, in 2008, to more aggressively pursue the AQ leadership. I couldn’t find any mention of drones one way or the other.
David Koch
@Baud:
Mexican food at will do that
raven
@Litlebritdifrnt: Gettin over on the man has a long tradition in the military.
Redshirt
How does one hold the media accountable?
Organized boycotts?
Don’t watch/read/buy?
Omnes Omnibus
@Litlebritdifrnt: Disabilities can be something other that the loss of a limb. For example, PTSD can be a disability, and it would be entirely undetectable as one watches the person run a marathon.
raven
Buddy lives around the corner is a combat wounded Vietnam vet with cancer. We shoot the shit a lot and I was buggin him about going to the VA. I said, “shit, you have a CIB, that’s 80% PTSD right there”. He looked at me and said, “you think I would lie”? Fuck no I don’t.
Baud
@David Koch:
Great. Another reason for the GOP to oppose immigration reform.
smintheus
@matt: He’s lying.
BillinGlendaleCA
@David Koch: Guess you’ve never had the “Mexican Food” at Disneyland.
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
There apparently is a brush fire near Magic Mountain, which is also an amusement park, but it’s at least 50 miles north of Anaheim (IIRC).
raven
@BillinGlendaleCA: We moved from Chicago to LA the year DL opened.
Baud
@Mnemosyne:
This is a different incident.
ETA: Some prank, I guess.
Mnemosyne
@BillinGlendaleCA:
For some reason, the food in Disneyland is terrible, but the food at California Adventure is really good. I really don’t understand why, but I’m guessing there are vested interests in DL who don’t want to change anything.
Also, a reprise for the B-Jers — the cats of Disneyland.
ETA: Here’s a better story with photos.
BillinGlendaleCA
@raven: That was a few years before my time. i was around for the 5th anniversary though.
raven
@BillinGlendaleCA: Not too shabby, didn’t get to see Wally Moon park one over that wall in the Coliseum huh?
mclaren
Like cathyx, I’m baffled at why you call Fournier’s statements “bilge.” These are accurate statements that appear to reflect observable reality.
The only part of Fournier’s claims that a reasonable person could conceivably argue with on a factual basis involves his assertion that Obama “pledged” various things. Obama made statements during his 2008 presidential campaign which strongly suggested that (for example) he thought Bush’s military commissions represented a gross overreach.
CITATION:
Source of citation: Council of Foreign Relations: The candidates on military tribunals and Guanatamo Bay, 2008.
Obama also said during the 2008 presidential campaign he wanted his administration to be “the most transparent in history.”
CITATION:
Source of citation: “The TMI presidency: how much transparency do we really want from Obama?” slate magazine online, 12 November 2008.
As for Obama’s alleged opposition to Bush’s drone strikes, I can’t find any specific statement by Obama to that effect. What I can find by Obama is a general opposition to the Bush global assassination and pre-emptive war policies in a speech then-senator Obama made in 2002 highly critical of the looming Iraq invasion.
CITATION:
Source of citation: NPR transcript of the then-senator Obama’s speech against the Iraq war made in Chicago in 2002.
Obama’s speech certainly sounds to me as though he was pledging not to engage in discriminate assassination of unidentified civilians in other countries, in global JSOC kill teams sent to all parts of the globe on dubious intelligence, in military force used in distant countries without adequate oversight by congress or a specific exit strategy or clear limits on the use of force. And ever since 2009, Obama appears to have engaged in every one of these kinds of Bush-era ill-advised war on terror policies.
Regardly Gitmo, Obama was prevented from closing it by acts of congress. If he had really truly been determined he could have shut down Gitmo by issuing an executive order finding that the Gitmo prisoners who had been found innocent were to be returned to their countries of origina dn sequestering the money needed to ship the Gitmo prisoners back home. That would have caused a firestorm of controversy against Obama and would have largely derailed his legislative agenda for months, but as we’ve seen, the Republicans in congress have determined to block Obama’s entire legislative agenda no matter what he proposes, so this isn’t much of an issue. As for causing a firestorm of controversy…so many insane charges have been made by Obama by so many Republicans that essentially anything he does causes a firestorm of controversy, including absurd trifles like his wife taking a vacation, Obama bowing ceremonially to the premier of Japan, and so on. So once again, not an issue.
Ron Fournier may be an asshole and a Karl Rove fanboi. But we as progressives should recognize and admit facts whenever we encounter ’em. To me, the central difference twixt conservatives and liberals today is that when facts hit liberals in the face we admit them, whereas when conservatives encounter facts they all too often just deny, deny, deny.
Eric U.
@raven: I was thinking about separating after my initial comittment was up. I went to the initial group counselling session, and the guy conducting the session went on and on about signing up for disability as soon as you separated. He was a civilian retired military. He was on 10% disability because he had heart problems that he didn’t have when he joined. Of course, it was almost surely due the fact that he was a heavy smoker, which he admitted.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: Blue Bayou by the Pirates is pretty good, the other food in Disneyland is awful. I’ve never been to CA Adventure, the last time I went to Disneyland was the day they started construction on CA Adventure.
Omnes Omnibus
@Eric U.: How long ago was this?
Baud
@mclaren:
I know I’m going to regret this, but your post has confirmed for me that Fournier was lying. So thanks.
Mnemosyne
@BillinGlendaleCA:
California Adventure (or DCA as we call it) is actually pretty fun — it’s essentially “Pixarland” with a bunch of attractions based on Pixar films. If you ever have a Park Hopper ticket that lets you into both parks, it’s worth checking out — they sometimes run “Southern California resident” specials that let you buy a Park Hopper for the price of single admission (which is, like, $80 these days IIRC).
BillinGlendaleCA
@raven: About the only thing I ever went to the Coliseum for is UCLA games, they moved to the Rose Bowl the year after I graduated. I did see a Rams/49’s game there, OJ’s last season.
raven
@Eric U.: Huh, never heard of such shit. I had great fun a few years back. Buncha my buddies kept bugging me to go down to the new VA facility and sign up. I did, filled out the paperwork and split. I went back for an appointment and, sure as shit, they couldn’t find the forms. There were all these poor dudes sitting in there who HAD to be there. I just decided to go off let them know what I thought of their slack asses. They called some dopey rent a cop and he followed me out to the parking lot. I just said “yea, what”? He didn’t say shit. I felt good cuz I knew the other dudes would have loved to have done the same thing. Don’t tell sooner! :)
mclaren
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
I couldn’t find any mention by senator or candidate Obama of drones either. I’ve included above excerpts from a 2002 speech that seem relevant, but the drone claim doesn’t appear to hold up specifically, though in general Obama does seem to have opposed Bush’s pre-emtive GWOT policies prior to Obama’s election as president.
raven
@BillinGlendaleCA: I went out for the 84 Olympics and got to see Moses win Gold and Jonie Benoit get her Gold for the women’s marathon run that morning. We must have had turned back Russian seats, 4th row right off the finish line.
Ever see WattStax?
Elie
@kwAwk:
And I will add, that besides being legally done, the need to investigate leaks is not a frivolous activity. If anyone remembers Valery Plame, that leak from an internal source of the government (Scooter Libby) to the press put her contacts at extreme risk — indeed caused death. It is not a minor thing.
As a side but related issue, I would like to re-state, that the media is now at least partially infiltrated with political operatives who are not “journalists”, but mouthpieces for specific agendas and interests. They hide behind the protections of the second amendment while not truly caring about upholding the republic, but more finding ways to exploit insider or secret information to do political harm. The guy Rosen from Fox had emails stating that he was going to use his secure information to “force the hand” of the administration.
I don’t think we will have a true discussion about this AP or media issue until we can bring out ALL the dimensions of this issue which include not only identifying leakers and protecting the freedom of the press, but recognizing that not all so called journalists are indeed “journalists” and what is the media going to be responsible for policing about itself..
Southern Beale
I dunno, have you read all the stuff over at CJR?
Eric U.
@Omnes Omnibus: would have been in ’89 or so. Now that I think about it, when I actually did separate in ’95, a VA person came and gave basically the same talk. I really couldn’t tell if I should do it because I wasn’t sure what my specific complaint would be :)
And yes, the guy in ’89 did talk about the fact that it reduces the amount that an ex-spouse can collect
Omnes Omnibus
@Eric U.: I got out in ’92 and no one said anything of the sort to me.
mclaren
@Redshirt:
The blogosphere does an excellent job of holding the media accountable for its distortions. Trouble is, the blogosphere doesn’t have much influence or visibility beyond the digerati and hipsters and suchlike early adopters of tech.
C.f. Paul Krugman’s near-decade-long debunking of austerity economics, which continues to be largely ignored by the mainstream media. There’s a huge disconnect twixt the excellent fact-checking done by parts of the blogosphere and the mainstream media which simply ignores any criticism which doesn’t come from either inside the D.C. beltway or from the mainstream media itself. The MSM even ignores scholarly white papers that refute its claims.
I don’t know what to do about that. It’s depressing.
raven
@Eric U.: Ya’ll dudes was married? Sheeeet.
Eric U.
@raven: that’s what my wife says all the time, but just not when I’m around.
@Omnes Omnibus: didn’t you have to go to some sort of VA counselling? I think it may have actually been mandatory for me as part of the program I signed up for to get out.
On the subject of the thread, the name Fournier should always be prefaced with “GOP Hack” — I don’t know why people like him, George Will and countless others get away with parading around as journalists. Hell, they mention Tweety wrote a speech for Carter once just about every time he shows up on my TeeVee
Elizabelle
Disneyland reports explosion in Toontown.
It’s Toontown, Jake.
patroclus
What’s the difference between Julian Assange and James Rosen? There sure does seem to be a diferent attitude amongst the media towards them. I’m no Assange defender, but isn’t he holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy right now in the U.K.? Is Ron Fournier lying about his case? Is there an entire “news” network blathering on and on about him the way they’re doing for Rosen? Leaks (and publication) of classified information done by some seem to be outrageous and done by others seem to be the height of First Amendment rights.
I think leaks of classified info should be investigated in all cases – that’s what the Espionage Act provides. Granted, there’s far too much classified information out there and sometimes the government does over-react, but why the complete difference in treatment of some v. others?
BillinGlendaleCA
@raven:
Nope, I was 12 then 50 miles out in the burbs.
Redshirt
@patroclus: Um, Republican Rules?
different-church-lady
@mclaren:
Who holds the blogosphere accountable for its distortions?
mclaren
@Elie:
Are you aware of CIA’s Operation Mockingbird?
Ever since the 1950s, the CIA has been paying prominent journalists as part of a systematic campaign to influence the American media. If you wonder why every single influential journalist in Washington D.C. and the mainstream media seems eager to parrot the Pentagon’s and CIA’s unsusbtantiated claims in print and on radio and on TV, it’s because a significant part of their paychecks comes from the CIA.
This isn’t paranoia. Operation Mockingbird is well-documented fact. In 1976 then-director of the CIA announced an end to Operation Mockingbird, but as with all claims about supposedly canceled secret government military/intelligence programs, it’s highly likely that the program was never actually cancelled. (As for example the American military’s claim to end biowarfare research — when in fact it was never actually ended…at least, according to the American Federation of Scientists.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Eric U.
Yep, but no one was pushing signing up for disability.
Elie
@patroclus:
Very good point. In this case, our so called media is frequently just looking for “gotchas” more than anything substantive. Given that they already hate Obama, anything that can be used as a gotcha is premium.
ruemara
@Mnemosyne: I now kinda wish I could go see this stuff. I got to go to Fanime Con a few years back and got to stand out side the fence for a bit to stare at the roller coasters. It sounds fabulous.
mclaren
In answer to Cole’s question “What did the DOJ do?” here’s the AP wire story:
This kind of sweeping violation of the Fourth Amendment, using massive trawls of NSA wiretaps, has become routine for the DOJ’s attacks on whistelblowers and on non-violent protesters and even against organizations as harmless as PETA…but now the mainstream media seems to have woken up to the fact that this stasi-like East-German-style universal surveillance now includes the press itself, and the press is just hopping mad about it.
Well, what did the press expect?
This is what I’ve been warning about for ages. When the government starts using universal surveillance and warrantless wiretapping — the government won’t even say why it wanted the phone records. This kind of secrecy, with secret prisons and secret laws and universal secret surveillance, inevitably expands until it becomes abused.
If you think the rule of law can be erased only for brown people with funny-sounding Arabic names, you’ve got another think coming. Because once the constitution gets shredded and the rule of law goes away, it goes away for everyone.
Elie
@mclaren:
Ok — sounds like you just automatically think that pursuing all leaks are wrong. Do you allow that there are government secrets and information that if shared can result in loss of life, or damage to our safety and other interests? Do you think that the US has any interests or should have in regards to the safety of its people, its territory etc?
Do you think all leakers are good journalists with nothing but clean motives?
I hope that I am not going to regret engaging you in an attempted dialogue
patroclus
@mclaren: Well, it’s not secret – we’re discussing it. And the 4th Amendment has limits – the Espionage Act has been upheld frequently by the courts and the DOJ obtained a subpoena in this case. Granted, the subpoena is overbroad and, as usual, they appear to be trawling for more information than they really need. In the Assange case, they threw in allegations of sexual misconduct in order to extradite him and they’ve leaked all sorts of stuff about Bradley Manning, in addition to mistreating him while in prison.
At least Rosen isn’t being prosecuted (in an exercise of prosecutorial descretion) and he’s apparently still free to complain about his phone records being subpoenaed. I’m just curious about the disparity in treatment and why some journalists somehow view Rosen as a hero while Assange is some sort of villain. Really, their cases, while different on the facts, are very similar on the principals.
mk3872
And Fournier is supposed to be a well-respected member of our nation’s media??
Show me proof that Obama said in 2008 that he would curb drone use, Mr. Fournier.
Suffern ACE
@patroclus: What’s odd is that for all of the complaints about overreach, we have 2 cases (Rosen and the AP) and a half-nitwit who thinks that the government was spying on her, but it could just be malware, and someone in the administration raising his voice to Woodward last year and then apologizing. And that’s it after four years? That’s our Stasi? But you are correct on the double standard.
Keith G
Obama haters (both parties) say he is worst prez evah. Obotters will polish any O’knob presented. Media (a good deal of them) want a salacious narrative. Somewhere in the middle of the triangle is what might be the truth.
But since this is a political tussle and not a geometric proof, evaluations are more about presentation and attitude than anything else. Obama has never cared about the press – fair enough. Human nature indicates that the press in turn probably have grown not to care a whole hell of a lot about Obama, so they will make an extra effort to piss and moan.
Se la vie
FWIW – A conflict has been brewing about this administration’s attitude toward transparency, secrecy, and treatment of “whistle blowers”. This AP affair is a bit of a spark and focal point for a variety of related issues.
Keith G
@patroclus:
There is a discussion….after the fact. Some wanted a discussion between DOJ, the courts, and AP a bit earlier.
edit, I do feel that we will be hearing many here singing a different tune the next time a GOP DOJ follows the current tactics.
Jack JD Montana
Balloon Juice seems to be one of the last redoubts of Obama koolaid drinking on the web. I probably shouldn’t waste too much time commenting here. But at least there are a few voices of sanity, like mclaren. The host seems to be a ‘low information voter’, who doesn’t even listen to progressive talk radio where the Nor-MAN Goldman show was wrapping Obama over the knuckles for this whole DOJ spying on AP thing. They of course, are still in denial that Benghazi was just Fast and Furious for Syria jihadists and that is one hell of a motive for all the embarassing cover ups starting with the half assed lie that it was a video onward to insisting they had no cavalry to ride to the rescue when a string of DoD leaks have been denying that since September 2012. Rand Paul was right it was about MANPADs and other weapons smuggling from Gaddafi’s arsenals to Assad, only the Iranians paid off some local Libyan militia thugs to burn our ‘consulate’ (CIA facility) to the ground. Obama’s people (with the help of the top tier in the CIA) have been frantically covering up the true story about the Benghazi mess ever since — hint, it’s IRAN CONTRA all over again only with ALQAEDA IN SYRIA instead of one arms for hostages deal with Iran.
Jack JD Montana
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Obama did invade a non threatening country — it was called Libya. Without Congress. Cuz he had NATO which is where he gets his authorization from. If you don’t believe me watch this YouTube video where Panetta told Sen. Sessions we have NATO now directing Americans wars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovuWJQrwpIw
jfxgillis
John:
Walter Pincus at WaPo (!) has the most informed and non-hystercal account of the AP subpoenas.
The funny thing is, it looks like he got fed a classified tidbit or two.
burnspbesq
I would have a fairly big issue if DOJ actually tried to prosecute a media actor for violating Section 793(c). I don’t think that will happen because that’s a fight they don’t need to pick.
It doesn’t bother me even a tiny bit if they use it in a warrant application to establish probable cause.
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
If you ever think you’re going to be in Anaheim, let me know. I might be able to work something for you and a guest. Being enslaved to the Giant Evil Corporation has its perks sometimes.
burnspbesq
@mclaren:
sweeping violation of the Fourth Amendment
You feckin’ idjit. What part of “they got a warrant” are you struggling to understand? BY DEFINITION, if the cops have a warrant, and stay within the terms of the warrant, there is no Fourth Amendment violation, except in your hyperactive imagination.
Kindly GFY.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I”m gonna put “doesn’t even listen to Nor-MAN Goldman” in the mental box where I keep some of the unintentionally hilarious phrases I see in the intertoobz
Elie
@Jack JD Montana:
Ok — tell your story straight out without your snarky asides. The O administration was doing arms for what and why? And this would be for what purpose? And your source is what?
Tell the story straight out… what happened, why and the outcome desired by the administration and why they had to cover it up. You got the facts, supposedly, so tell all to us hopeless obamats…
burnspbesq
@patroclus:
Rosen isn’t hiding in an embassy to avoid extradition because he’s unwilling to face the consequences of what appears to be a criminal act unrelated to his supposed mission. That’s one difference between him and Assange.
Keith G
@Jack JD Montana:
Hey big guy, instead of a hint why don’t you come right out and type a simple five sentence paragraph describing this “scandal” that is
I have a few minutes before bed time.
ruemara
@Mnemosyne: With luck, I’ll be in SD for ComicCon and Anaheim for hopefully, an interview. I’ll let you know. Is this thread devolving into paranoiacs sans prozac?
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Jack JD Montana: You are precious. Do stay.
MomSense
Booman did a whole series on the AP story.
Here is one. http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2013/5/15/115718/835
Elie
@MomSense:
Thanks or the insight. Now will we ever get to a point when this can largely be presented to the public? Instead, it seems that the AP and media are doubling down on situations that clearly demonstrate that there is a lack of rationale for continuing to pursue their stories beyond gotcha. That in this and the Fox/Rosen story, they are willing to undermine secured information and relationships that could hurt our safety makes for a very cold feeling about these people — how much are they willing to throw down to make this administration look bad? Pretty scary and worth someone being exposed a little more aggressively, to my mind.
heckblazer
I don’t see the AP case as an example of violating the rights of reporters, I see it as a violation of people’s rights period. Unfortunately, current law doesn’t agree with me. Information held by third parties isn’t protected because there’s no reasonable expectation of privacy because, well, it’s held by a third party. That includes voicemail and email stored for over 180 days on a commercial server. When it’s a third party’s business records (like, say, phone billing records) it’s especially easy to get. Between cloud computing and the enormous amount of data collected by corporations this is a big problem that’s not getting any smaller.
Bill E Pilgrim
I think a lot of people excuse the spying on reporters out of team Obama spirit. I can’t imagine you or a lot of others looking for such verification and asking about details were these stories about the Bush White House, you’d be screaming bloody murder.
Having said that, Ron Fournier is lying, and always has.
I read Greenwald and find his criticisms valid most of the time. When it’s coming from someone like Fournier, or Conor Friedersdorf for that matter, it feels like opportunism, by which I mean it’s the same as the first problem I mentioned but in reverse, they want to damage Obama and gleefully jump on with the criticism and overreach. For example, what Fournier wrote about drones, which is utter bullshit. They turn something they’ve heard like “Obama seemed to promise a shift from the Bush administration” and exaggerate it into “Obama promised no more drone strikes” which is a very different statement, and, a lie.
Russell M
this piece from Nob at the LOOG is pretty good. he also has some good follow-ups and some fairly good links in the OP.
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2013/05/the-pen-register-and-the-meter-reasonable-expectations-of-privacy/
Narcissus
doesn’t even listen to talk-radio, well hot damn
how is he going to know the secret hand-shake to get into the treehouse
Odie Hugh Manatee
“Any want to deal with that pile of bilge?”
It’s Anybody want to pump that bilge?
Bilge doesn’t pile. :)
gocart mozart
So far so good.
Barack Obama in 2008 declared those Bush policies an overreach, and pledged to curb drone strikes, protect media freedoms, and close the prison at Guantanamo Bay. Instead, he escalated drone strikes and spied on the media. Gitmo is still open for its grim business.
LAC
@Hal: So true. The amount of hand jobs the washington media hacks give themselves warrants carrying around an umbrella to avoid the jism storm.
LT
@Anoniminous:
This thread is so painful to read. Yay, government!
LT
Pretty sure Marcy Wheeler debunked Pincus even before he wrote that article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fine-print-the-press-and-national-security/2013/05/20/04553d22-be3b-11e2-97d4-a479289a31f9_story.html
http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/05/21/why-would-the-us-shield-fahd-al-quso-in-february-2012-but-drone-kill-him-in-may-2012/
LT
Marcy directly addressing Pincus here: http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/05/21/the-laughable-currently-operative-ap-pushback-story/