A defense lawyer writes to Josh Marshall at TPM:
In Florida, if self-defense is even suggested, it’s the states obligation to prove it’s absence beyond a reasonable doubt(!). That’s crazy. But ‘not guilty’ was certainly a reasonable result in this case. As I told in friend in Tampa today though, if you’re ever in a heated argument with anyone, and you’re pretty sure there aren’t any witnesses, it’s always best to kill the other person. They can’t testify, you don’t have to testify, no one else has any idea what happened; how can the state ever prove beyond a doubt is wasn’t self-defense? Holy crap! What kind of system is that?
I understand the reflex to lash out at the jury, but what were they supposed to do if that’s a fair reading of the law? Apparently the Florida legislature wants a system where gun nuts who prowl the streets and get themselves in fights can shoot the other guy and get away with it, as long as there are no witnesses.
WereBear
Yes. Because this will prompt that other guy to get a gun, carry it everywhere, and shoot first.
imonlylurking
I’ve just decided to never step foot in Florida unless I’m sent there for work. I was thinking about an extended bird-watching trip there next year. I’ll go someplace less crazy, like maybe Somalia.
Baud
I don’t follow trials, and I didn’t follow this one closely. From the commentary I’ve read, however, these are the conclusions I’ve drawn, FWIW:
1) FL law is messed up in a lot of respects.
2) Given FL law and the facts presented, the jury verdict wasn’t crazy when viewed in isolation.
3) When considered in societal context rather than in isolation, not too many people on our side of humanity believe that the result at the scene or at the trial would have been the same if (1) Martin was white or (2) Zimmerman were black, or (3) both.
Do people who have followed the trial more closely feel differently?
A Ghost To Most
Or just stay out of the South. I realize that doesn’t work for many, but l have made it my mission to stay away, since 2001. Folks are crazy enough here in Colorado; no need to go where they are even crazier.
rikyrah
If it was reversed, that there was a BLACK 24 year old man who had killed a 17 year old WHITE child
….
does anyone, under any circumstances…
believe that this would have turned out the same way?
JPL
Huff Post has the story of Marissa Alexander up…. link
Was her mistake being black or not killing her husband?
Howard Beale IV
That’s why everyone needs to practice sousveillance.
rikyrah
@TheObamaDiary
Surprise, Greenwald interrupts his tweeting about himself to link to post that says #TrayonMartin “jury basically got it right”. Pure ugly.
dp
I thought all along that the prosecution would have problems with reasonable doubt.
rdldot
That’s the problem with all of these ‘stand your ground’ type of laws. The last one standing is the innocent party because no one will know what happened, and all you have to say is you feel ‘threatened’. It’s like Wild West vigilante justice all over again.
WereBear
@dp: I thought all along that this was a winnable case; but a successful prosecution would probably run into career trouble. Because they did not seem to have their act together.
Doubtless because it went to trial because of public pressure… not, as is usually the case, the DA felt they could win.
Suffern ACE
@JPL: the mistake was not killing her husband and missing her children. My guess is that if the bullet she fired hits and kills her children, she gets manslaughter and gets out in 12.
scav
To no small degree the jury’s decision reflects the local culture as do the laws and law enforcement practices. All of those elements judged this death as ‘no big deal’, ‘nothing to get excited over’ and ‘par for the course, just another sunny day in Florida’ from day one, before even Trayvon’s family knew he was dead. All or it reflects back light on their shared culture and also to a generalized American culture that finds a virulent and concentrated expression in its Southern subculture.
Schlemizel
The Shoot Your Gun laws are a stroke of marketing genius by the NRA. Your best bet is to get your own gun & always, always always shoot first. You have to assume the other guy is armed and you sure as hell don’t want to give them a chance to kill you so your best option is to shoot first and claim you felt your life was in danger.
Is this a great country or what!
me
@rikyrah: Errr… that’s not fair. The post in question was written by Ta-Nehisi Coates who makes the same point as the lawyer mistermix referred to.
Villago Delenda Est
@rikyrah:
No. It WOULD NOT have turned out the same way. The black man would have been condemned to death.
Florida is a seriously fucked up state.
Ronnie P
Marissa Alexander’s mistake was not taking a plea.
She wasn’t some innocent victim. She had earlier defied a judge’s order to stay away from her husband and kids. She was not under threat at the time. She went to her car to get her gun. And if she killed the kids, she could hardly argue self defense.
WereBear
Sadly so. And a state with possibly the highest percentage of cranky old people. Setting a precedent for shooting those kids on their lawn.
“I’m old! I felt threatened!”
Better leave that baseball right where it is, kid.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I was more than a little surprised that O’Mara mentioned the black youths who had been arrested for B&E in the neighborhood, only because it was such a blatant appeal to tribalism. But he knew his audience, and as his post-verdict remarks show, he was speaking from the heart.
Mike in NC
This will become a national model, thanks to ALEC, I believe. Also, too: wingnuts won’t even try to hide that they’ve completely lost their shit over the Zimmerman verdict. Hannity will be red in the face, pounding his desk and Limbaugh might actually have a stroke (silver lining) while he gloats. By Friday, the House GOP will be busy impeaching Obama, which they’ve been dreaming about for the past 5 years.
People who think of Florida as being some sort of semi-tropical wonderland like Tampa or Miami or Key West haven’t a clue about it as part of the Deep South and all that entails.
A Ghost To Most
@Villago Delenda Est:
But we already knew that; this is just more confirmation.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Baud: With regard to your point (3), this video pretty much confirms it.
@WereBear: As a friend of mine – whose husband is an LEO – observed:
Which does not mean the FL self defense law isn’t majorly fucked up, but… distinctly different outcomes are gonna happen with different looking players.
Keith
There’s apparently a large and influential swath of this country who believes that the Wild West is what made this country great. None of these people actually lived during that time, so their opinions of it must come from movies and actors like John Wayne and Clint Eastwood. Maybe if they watched more Deadwood and less Hondo it might occur to them that that time period was not so friggin’ awesome.
jamick6000
i agree with this. def understand that people are pissed and lashing out at the jury but it’s not their fault.
aimai
I really think thats a bit of a cop out for the cops and the prosecution. I get that the jury was in a bind–if they are more or less instructed that all that matters for “self defense” is whether Zimmerman felt threatened at the moment that Martin turned around and punched him. But I really think that Police and the Prosecutors failed to charge Zimmerman appropriately if the case came down to that since Zimmerman was the agressor in the case and the entire incident couldn’t have happened absent Zimmerman putting himself in Martin’s way.
Villago Delenda Est
@WereBear:
It is very important to remember that taking this case to trial wasn’t even seriously considered when the killing occurred, because it “was just one of those things.” The attitude of the police was “meh”, basically. It took a lot of public pressure to even BOTHER with a trial process to attempt to reconstruct the events of that night…and that was an outrage to the wingtards, who thought that even charging Zimmerman was the equivalent of sticking the needle in him. Which tells you a lot about how they view the criminal justice system. The Ed Meese school of thought…if you’re arrested, you must be guilty of SOMETHING. In Trayvon Martin’s case, it was walking in a neighborhood after sundown while wearing a gang-uniform hoodie and being black.
Villago Delenda Est
@Keith:
The Wild West they know is the one invented in Hollywood in the early half of the 20th century, which has nothing at all to do with the American frontier of the 19th century.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
But they weren’t profiling! There’s just all these BLACK kids in the neighborhood.
He should quit while he’s ahead. He got his client off. Hopefully he’ll keep talking, right?
Maybe we can talk some more about Zimmerman’s TRAGIC weight gain. He has suffered!
Comrade Jake
ICYMI, Coates’ piece on the trial is really worth a read.
Kay
What’s great about FL self defense is, anyone can profile anyone as a criminal, kill the person they profiled, then spend 2 weeks proving they were RIGHT when they profiled.
It’s fabulous. Buy a gun and create your own crime scenario.
Liberty60
This is why the Stand Your Ground laws are so crazy- they put the presumption of innocence on the shooter, and put the dead person on trial.
And worse,the decision as to whether or not to prosecute is entirely at the discretion of the DA, allowing his/her inner bias and prejudice to come to the fore.
SYG needs to go, period.
scav
@Kay: Don’t normally disagree with you Kay, but I severely doubt Anyone has quite the same access to this law. There are still guilty verdicts in the system. But for some, it’s 007 all the way.
Pococurante
Apparently, Stand Your Ground in Florida means who ever has a gun and shoots first.
One can follow a kid, be told by cops to stop, start a confrontation, and then shoot an unarmed kid. In self defense. Because a split lip is life threatening.
The practical lesson seems to be everyone must carry a gun. And shoot first.
Kay
@aimai:
Right, but they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was NOT self defense.
That is tough.
I read the police interviews and I would say the police did a poor job interviewing. One can read it 2 ways, but ONE reading comes off as prompting him for the elements of self defense. I was bothered by the interviews. I felt they started with a self defense “frame”
amk
Yeah. kinda like ‘we were just following orders’. Fuck the facts or your own conscience for that matter. It was a corrupt law cooked up by corrupt pols and corrupt extra constitutional orgs and somehow it is inviolate.
gene108
Good legal advice.
There’s a case of a black woman, in Florida, firing a warning shot at her abusive ex and she got sentenced to 20 years in prison, because he was alive and able to testify against her.
Cacti
Mighty white of ya, Mistermix.
Now let’s all pretend that if a 29-year old black man, was standing armed over the corpse of a 17 year old white kid, that the same white jury would have voted to acquit.
That’s assuming that he even made it to trial and wasn’t shot on sight by the Sanford PD responding to the scene.
WereBear
@WereBear: Actually, further thought clarifies exactly why this is why it works in Florida.
Living in NY, I had more friends of color than I ever did in Florida. Because it was safe for both of us to show regard and friendship. Because of racism, people were encouraged to “keep to their own” and thus paranoia and ill will grow and deepen.
Retirees are freaked about street crime; because they are not recognizing reality of youth crime, for instance, being down at the lowest levels in 30 years. Since most retirees haven’t changed their minds in that long, THE OTHER still lurks to push them down and break their hip.
I picture 5 pm and the Denny’s (which used to be named Sambo’s, don’t you know) all across the state filling up with pistol-packing guys with their pant waists across their nipples, chowing down on Early Bird Specials served by… African Americans.
Mandalay
@rikyrah:
Got a link? That looks suspiciously like what Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote:
So is the comment still “Pure ugly” when it comes from TNC, or is it only “Pure ugly” when it comes from GG?
The GG hatred knows no bounds with some of you wackos.
Kay
@scav:
The “anyone” refers to how Zimmerman was given a sort of quasi official status by the Neighborhood Watch chatter at the trial.
I reject that. Zimmerman has no more authority to follow “suspects” (his word) than ANYONE else.
I don’t want armed people “protecting” me. I don’t want it and I didn’t ask for it.
NickT
@rikyrah:
Mark O’Mara has already said that the case wouldn’t have come to trial and that the only reason Zimmermann was charged was reverse racism.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57593644/attorney-things-would-have-been-different-if-zimmerman-was-black/
Truly, these people have neither shame, nor integrity, nor decency anywhere in them.
McJulie
I’ve seen it suggested that the best way to prompt change in Florida is to make it clear that, if Florida is perceived as dangerous, tourism will take a hit.
Ah, capitalism. But seriously.
jayjaybear
@Kay: Not “anyone” (in either spot), though. If Martin had been the one who killed Zimmerman (or even if Zimmerman had killed Martin but their skin colors were reversed), even with the exact same facts leading up to the moment of the gun firing, he’d have gotten the needle within 3 weeks of the killing.
And I know you know this, Kay, so I’m not criticizing the post I’m replying to, just using it to reiterate the point that disparate outcomes are not justice.
NickT
@Mandalay:
Greenwald deserves a lot of contempt for his extreme hypocrisy on these issues. He’s had nothing to say about the butchery of the VRA – and here he is opening his yap when a black boy was stalked and murdered. No wonder people think that you libertarians are just Republicans in very thin disguise.
Percysowner
Two words Jury Nullification. Hey the right to lifers try it all the time when murdering abortion providers. It doesn’t happen a lot, but juries can and do ignore the law from time to time. Now Zimmerman’s attorney would appeal and probably win because of how the law was written, but the jury COULD have been so outraged that he killed a teenaged boy for no reason that they convicted him. And let’s face it, if the races had been reversed, stand your ground would have been out the window in a heartbeat.
amk
@Cacti:
Here ya go.
Cacti
While we’re busy absolving the poor, put upon jury for letting a killer walk, let’s also pretend that if a 29-year old black man was standing armed over the corpse of a 17 year old white kid…
1. He wouldn’t have been wrestled to the ground, maced or tasered, and cuffed in the most physical manner (if he wasn’t shot first for “resisting arrest”).
2. He wouldn’t have been booked that same evening, had his clothing seized as evidence, and been tested for alcohol and drugs.
3. He would have been performing a friendly walkthrough of the scene with police officers the following day.
4. That Murder 1 ever would have been off the table.
Howard Beale IV
Ok, so Zimmerman was found not guilty in a criminal trial. Now can we move on to the civil trial? Remember, OJ was acquitted in the crimnal trial, but lost in the civil trial big time-and in the civil trial, the standards of evidence bar is lower.
scav
@Kay: I think we’re saying the same thing or at least similar things, from different angles. FL Law is calvinball, with unofficial, socially sanctified free agents (not randomly chosen in practice but coyly left to popular local prejudice) with no downsides to at least gun-based murder.
Cacti
Thanks for the whitesplanation bro.
Kay
@Cacti:
The defense put up a chart on FL self defense law.
It would be very tough to convict when the victim can’t speak and tell his side.
They may KNOW it’s an unjust result.
They have to read and apply the instructions.
Remember “NOT self defense beyond a reasonable doubt”
How do you prove that with no statements or testimony from the victim?
NickT
@Cacti:
Don’t blame all of us for the libertarian/racist scum, please. Many of us find them deeply embarrassing and want nothing more than to see some genuine justice and decency in America.
WereBear
@McJulie: Wouldn’t it be pretty to think so?
But I think it will simply herd more people into controlled environments like DisneyWorld. Eat, sleep, & recreate in highly expensive and constantly monitored simulations.
It’s magic!
beltane
@Cacti: Yes, Cacti, of course, but it will always be important for some people to pretend that all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
gene108
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
The video’s a damning indictment of society.
aimai
@Kay: I feel for the jury. The very things that influence an outside viewer–the setting of the crime, the personalities, the history of race and racism, the drafting of the law etc… are all things they are told to exclude from their consideration. They are told to focus only on the facts of this case and the moments that the judge and lawyers tell them to focus on. Its absurd and results in a very narrow focus which can be “correct” and incorrect at the same time.
rikyrah
@amk:
the Black man in this case didn’t stalk this White guy…this White guy was on his property; had threatened the Black man’s son….
he was defending his home..
yet, he still went to jail.
I want to find the case of the Black man stalking, hunting a White child, and gets off.
becca
@Ronnie P: that is not what I read.
Ms Alexander had a restraining order against her husband. Her estranged husband, who, btw, was not injured in any way, backed up her version of events. He had sent her to the hospital on a previous occasion.
Again, her husband is very much alive and Trayvon Martin is dead.
Mandalay
@NickT:
The poster criticized GG for a comment that was actually made by TNC, yet somehow it’s still Greenwald’s fault?
Greenwald didn’t “open his yap” at all; the only twitter I have seen from him on the Zimmerman verdict links to the TNC article!
You are just not very bright.
Cacti
@Kay:
Kay, you’ve been to the dance enough times to know how differently things would have been handled from the very start if George Zimmerman had been a black man.
I don’t acknowledge that the system worked as it was designed. I acknowledge that it worked as it was designed for black victims and non-black suspects.
amk
@rikyrah: Yup. It’s I provoke, you lose reality.
Violet
@McJulie:
Seems like a good plan to me. Let’s start with Disneyworld. Organized boycotts of Disneyworld–and anything else family-oriented in Orlando–might get some attention from those corporations. Let all the gun nuts spend their vacation money in Florida. Sane people can stay away.
Let Florida pay for their insanity. Let the corporations know the price they pay for doing business in Florida.
handsmile
With Comrade Jake above (#29), another recommendation for Ta-Nehisi Coates’ finely nuanced Atlantic post:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/on-the-killing-of-trayvon-martin-by-george-zimmerman/277773/
The comments there are quite substantive and the reliably thoughtful TNC is active within them. I hope he gets some broadcast/cable air-time in the coming days.
As expected, Melissa Harris-Perry and her guests were superb (deeply informed, rueful, and proactive) this morning in examining the Zimmerman trial and verdict and its political and legal implications: http://tv.msnbc.com/shows/melissa-harris-perry/.
Kay
@scav:
Yeah. I have a real problem with the unregulated army carrying out there.
I think it infringes on my liberty. I have a 19 year old who “thought” with his spinal cord when he was 17.
Would he fight or flee if followed?
Yeah, he would. My older son would think or talk Mr. Zimmerman down.
My younger one? Not a big talker. ALL spinal cord, at that age.
I have rights, too. I have tge right not to be followed by an armed person.
Cacti
@Mandalay:
Yes, Greenwald is a veritable modern day Thurgood Marshall.
The difference being that his “civil rights” work consisted primarily of defending the “right” of a white supremacist to threaten federal judges and advocate violence against people of color.
Quelle surprise that he’s down with the killer of a black teen getting to walk.
beltane
@Violet: Florida gets a lot of tourists from Europe and Canada. It would great to think of a way to target these people and encourage them to spend their money elsewhere.
gene108
@rikyrah:
There are several cases of people “defending their castle” where shooting people on your property doesn’t result in prosecution.
The only other explanation, other than race, is New York law hasn’t adopted SYG / Castle laws to the same degree other states have, so the burden of proof on the prosecution is less.
Probably a bit of both.
AxelFoley
Seriously, mix?
You bitch and moan about the laws regarding surveillance (which are legal), but don’t question this bullshit SYG law?
aimai
@Violet: The problem with boycotts is that the vast majority of people don’t identify with random victims of violence, even if they think its murder. They continue to think it “won’t happen to me.” I already boycott Florida but still have to go down there to visit my husband’s parents. I doubt very much that the businesses and families who go to Florida will begin boycotting until the gun violence reaches into their ranks (white people, business people, tourists.)
Gopher2b
Fine but don’t sugarcoat over the terrible job the prosecutors did. They may have the burden but they don’t have to make the suggestions on behalf of the defense.
AxelFoley
@rikyrah:
Fuck Greenwald in the eye. He can go DIAF.
NickT
@Mandalay:
Do you think I care what a racist glibertarian troll like you thinks? Your little tinpot idol is now blackmailing the United States after putting our intelligence officers and sources in danger to flatter his pathetic little ego – and has the nerve to do this in the name of “liberty”, when it clearly doesn’t mean a damn to him what happens to anyone who isn’t white, male and privileged. Scum like you deserve no respect.
Cacti
@beltane:
Just spit-balling here, but I wonder if it would be possible to get African American athletes from SEC schools to boycott road games in Florida.
kc
For some reason I suspect black people have less luck with that.
gbear
@WereBear: I just wonder when the dangerous craziness of Florida passes a line where international travelers just don’t want to go there and are afraid to go there. I’m really hoping that this may be a tipping point that kills the goose that lays the golden eggs as far as tourism is concerned.
Kay
So what’s the law on CC in FL?
Can a juvenile even arm for self defense legally?
Good job, gun nuts. Did you put the teenager at a disadvantage in the arms race?
Cacti
@AxelFoley:
Mistermix is a brogressive.
amk
@AxelFoley: Bingo. The double standard here is stunning.
AxelFoley
@Cacti:
Thank you. Mix has been showing his true colors lately.
AxelFoley
@Mandalay:
Yeah, fuck YOU and Greenwald sideways, asshole.
beltane
@Cacti: That seems like it would be a good place to start. These athletes put themselves in grave danger by travelling to Florida, and the Florida economy should not be enriched by their presence. If no attempt is made to shame Florida for its barbaric laws and 4th rate criminal justice system, there is no hope that anything will ever change.
gwangung
George Zimmerman is legally not guilty of murder.
However, he is, factually, reckless in his use of a gun.
He is, factually, not very sound in his judgement in using his gun, ignoring police instruction.
He is, in my opinion, a menace to society.
Because, factually, he killed an unarmed person who was just trying to get home.
Cacti
@AxelFoley:
We have to get back to the important stuff.
Like how unfair it is that Edward Snowden doesn’t have a passport to assist in his unlawful flight to avoid prosecution, or how theft is a “political crime” that deserves assylum.
Mandalay
@Cacti:
So when TNC writes “I think the jury basically got it right” he is not “down with the killer of a black teen getting to walk”?
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/on-the-killing-of-trayvon-martin-by-george-zimmerman/277773/
And when Mistermix agrees, and writes “I understand the reflex to lash out at the jury, but what were they supposed to do if that’s a fair reading of the law?” he is not “down with the killer of a black teen getting to walk”?
Yet when Greenwald doesn’t offer any opinion the Zimmerman verdict “he’s down with the killer of a black teen getting to walk.”?
You are dumber than a box of rocks.
Anya
@Baud: if Martin was white and Zimmerman black, the Sanford police would’ve charged Zimmerman and he would’ve been advised to plead guilty by his poplin defender. Case closed!
A Ghost To Most
So, if some person, with a gun, profiles George Z. as a child killer, and then continues to follow him until George confronts him by pulling his own gun, then this person shoots and kills George, can they claim self-defense?
‘Cause that’s how it looks.
amk
@Mandalay: Conveniently left this, didn’tya you pos ?
Your idol deserves the scorn precisely because of his racist affiliations.
Violet
@beltane: The English folks I know are appalled at our gun policies here. A targeted campaign to let them know that Florida is seriously dangerous might work. Let them go to a saner state.
The key goals for the campaign should probably be:
1. Letting the gun nuts know the other side is around and can organize
2. Getting the attention of the corporations that the Florida policies negatively impact their business
3. Ditto for Florida politicians–the gun policies affect tourism and thus the economy
Cacti
@Mandalay:
I also noticed that TNC closed comments for his “respectable” observation. Must have been afraid that his readers would have crashed the site with their expressions of agreement and solidarity.
Greenwald found a black face to give him some cover on being okay with Zimmerman gunning down a black kid and walking for it.
Yep, that sounds like his MO.
Chris
@Keith:
It wasn’t, but not for the reasons people think. The Wild West was a shitty time because of things like genocide, land theft, racist social stratification for those who remained (as in the rest of the country), and the domination of everything by the new robber baron class (as in the rest of the country).
But the image of the Wild West as a gunslinger’s nirvana is pretty much a myth; violent crime wasn’t that high and gun control laws were stringent enough to scare any current NRA member as white as the hood and sheets in his closet. People in that era knew what guns were and what they could do, and legislated accordingly. It’s only sheltered middle class white people in suburban gated communities who can allow themselves to fantasize about living in a Hollywood action movie.
Mandalay
@amk: You are the one who made the claim that that Greenwald is “down with the killer of a black teen getting to walk” based on something that was actually written by TNC.
You have finally realized your error, so you want to quickly change the subject.
Entirely understandable.
Ruckus
@A Ghost To Most:
Seven yrs ago I was living in the midwest for a job that ended. I knew I was going to move and sat down with a map to figure out where to move to. The entire south was never considered. And that included AZ and NM. Actually everything south of I80 not on the west coast was off limits. And specifically because I had lived in or traveled in all of those states. I just didn’t want to ever go back. That’s what, half the country that I considered uninhabitable? And it was because I’d been there. And I know nice, wonderful people that live in almost all of those states.
Violet
@aimai: I think your point is a good one, but since this case is just so high profile, I think it’s possible that it could be a springboard for a boycott. Perhaps some African American leaders or groups would support such a thing?
@Cacti: I wondered about athletes too. Maybe NBA players who showed support for Trayvon Martin when the story first broke would support such a thing? High profile people refusing to go to Florida because of the law might have some impact.
Ruckus
@rikyrah:
No.
amk
@Mandalay: Wrong. Try again idiot.
greennotGreen
Is there doubt that Zimmerman killed Martin for no good reason? Yes. Is there “reasonable” doubt? Not in my book. Zimmerman’s stories (and there were several of them) didn’t make sense, he had started the confrontation by following Trayvon (and don’t tell me being followed at night by a strange man isn’t threatening,) and he knew the police were on their way. How could Trayvon have known Zimmerman had a gun if the gun was under Zimmerman and Trayvon was sitting on him holding him down…unless Zimmerman had already pulled it.
An extraterrestrial could have taken over Zimmerman’s body and made him pull the trigger. That would certainly limit his culpability. Is it possible? I guess. Is it a reasonable hypothesis? Not in my at least borderline rational world.
I think that’s where the jury erred: doubt versus reasonable doubt.
Cacti
@Mandalay:
What error?
When have white right wingers ever NOT looked for a black face to put on their otherwise repugnant views?
Chris
@Mike in NC:
Even places like Miami, Tampa or Key West aren’t as modern as all that – as a friend who grew up in Boca pointed out to me when I moved down there, “Miami is turning blue, but it’s still got plenty of red.” You’ve got your white gated communities there just like everywhere else in the country, hunkering down and sheltering themselves from all the horrific non-whiteness out there. And even if you go outside of the white community, there’s always the Cuban community (which is turning bluer, but with the old guard still in charge of far too much).
Mandalay
@Cacti:
Ah! You have finally realized that GG didn’t make that comment at all, and that it was made by TNC. Well done!
But you have put painted yourself in a corner now. What to do?
You could go after TNC instead of GG about the comment, but I suspect you will just change the subject and hope nobody noticed your lunacy.
Cacti
@greennotGreen:
I’ve mentioned this before, but white Americans, even those who swear they “don’t have a racist bone in my body” have been conditioned their whole lives to think “trouble” when they see an unfamiliar black face.
This was the filter through which the white ladies of the jury heard the trial. And when it came time to ask themselves if they would have pulled the trigger too, they answered with a unanimous yes.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
Guys, as shit as SYG is, it was not invoked for the trial. It was FL’s vanilla self-defense law, which essentially does as much as it possibly can to remove as much of the affirmative defense burdens that normally come with self-defense claims as possible. Between this and SYG’s removal of the ‘duty to retreat’ in any situation….Florida is a doubly fucking scary place that I’m staying the fuck out of.
Cacti
@Mandalay:
You’re chasing your own tail there sparky. Caught it yet.
As I’ve mentioned multiple times, Greenwald found a black face to give cover to his anti-black views. One of the oldest right wing tropes in the book.
A Ghost To Most
@Chris:
As much as I agree with this, I try not to kid myself that the south has a monopoly on racism. My entire family are stone-cold racists, and they live in western NY state.
Chris
@A Ghost To Most:
I’ve thought about this before (racism in the South versus racism in the rest of the country), and this is what I’ve come up with;
On the one hand, the South has no monopoly on racism. The North treated immigrants horrifically for most of its history, and did the same to black people when they started moving up there. The U.S. Army that put down the Confederacy went on to practice ethnic cleansing in the West. Even the return to power of the Old South, with racial terrorism and all, after Reconstruction was done with the approval and permission of the rest of the country. And certainly, it’s true that there are people in the rest of the country that’re happy to blame all the racial crap in this country on the South and ignore what’s going on in their own back yard.
On the other hand… the South remains the only part of the country where white supremacism was considered so important that it was worth starting a revolution over, and the only part of the country that rallied to a third party based on the single platform of “segregation now, segregation forever” (twice in twenty years). When the Irish, the Italians, the Poles and all the rest started gaining more and more political power in the North, for example, the WASP establishment grumbled, but it didn’t start a war over it.
So it’s not that I think the South is more white supremacist than the rest of the country, exactly. But I think white supremacism occupies a much more central place in Southern political ideology than in the rest of the country. My two cents.
becca
@Ruckus: Moving to a blue state has been mentioned in our family. Our daughter was born and raised in TN. They want me and mr becca to sell the house and move, too.
Having lived on southern incomes for so long, finding an affordable alternative is more daunting than I realized. Maybe we should just buy a couple of campers and go where the weather is most stable. That’s probably a future trend, anyway.
Mnemosyne
@A Ghost To Most:
Under Florida law, yes. A stroll through the Tampa Bay Times’ Stand Your Ground database shows exactly how fucked up Florida’s “self-defense” laws are, since they allow you to chase someone down the street, stab them to death, sell the car radios the dead person had stolen, and still claim self-defense.
My other “favorite” is the guy who went to his ex-wife’s house with a gun and killed her new boyfriend while the ex fled screaming for the police. The SWAT team was called to subdue the guy … and yet it was “self-defense” because the guy with the gun who started the confrontation by coming over to the house claimed that the new boyfriend lunged at him.
lol
Mandalay is one of those people who thinks “and how come blacks can say n—– all they want but when I say it, I’m accused of being a racist? Completely reverse racism! They’re the real racists!”
Heliopause
The internet swathed itself in general idiocy last night, the BJ comment section no exception. Thankfully, we have Ta-Nehisi Coates:
“2.) I think the jury basically got it right. The only real eyewitness to the death of Trayvon Martin was the man who killed him. At no point did I think that the state proved second degree murder. I also never thought they proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he acted recklessly. They had no ability to counter his basic narrative, because there were no other eye-witnesses.
3.) The idea that Zimmerman got out of the car to check the street signs, was ambushed by 17-year old kid with no violent history who told him he ‘you’re going to die tonight’ strikes me as very implausible. It strikes me as much more plausible that Martin was being followed by a strange person, that the following resulted in a confrontation, that Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman in the confrontation, and Zimmerman then shot him. But I didn’t see the confrontation. No one else really saw the confrontation. Except George Zimmerman. I’m not even clear that situation I outlined would result in conviction.”
This basically sums up what I’ve been saying for months, though with one exception; I’m not sure the jury “got it right” about the included charge of manslaughter, which is what I all along thought Zimmerman was more likely guilty of. But you really had to be delusional to think there was a second degree murder case here, given the evidence. If jurors are willing to come forward in the face of the mountains of abuse they’re receiving and talk about the manslaughter issue I’d be interested in what they have to say.
gopher2b
“In Florida, if self-defense is even suggested, it’s the states obligation to prove it’s absence beyond a reasonable doubt(!). That’s crazy.”
This isn’t that rare; the government always has the burden in virtually every respect. The key here is “if self-defense is even suggested.” Why would the government suggest it? They inexplicably played a full video tape of his “statement” for the jury. It was self-serving and not subjected to an educated cross-examination. From my point of view, that’s malpractice. Add focusing on “scream experts”… so stupid.
This is the jury instruction on self defense:
“However, to justify the use of deadly force, the danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force.
Based upon appearances, George Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.”
How do you even get to argue this if they never pay the video tape. How do you fail to get Martin’s blood test excluded (showed marijuana); how do you allow a photo of Martin wearing gold teeth to be showed to a jury; how do you fail to exclude a witness from testifying for the sole purpose of saying her house was broken into by a black youth….and then fail to cross examine him on the fact that the black youth was not the same black youth who is dead in all these photos.
Criminal incompetence.
JCT
@Kay: This is exactly the issue, an armed largely untrained self-described militia of gun nuts. This situation is their wet dream writ large. Don’t get out of the boat and visit any of their forums, you will lose faith in humanity. These guys aren’t just ecstatic for Zimmerman, they’re jealous.
My favorite question for them is why they don’t carry openly. At least give those of us a chance to avoid them. But no — it puts them at a disadvantage with the “bad guys” (apparently real and made up).
My own 18-hr-old son called me last night freaked out of his mind over this – identified with Martin all the way.
grandpa john
@gopher2b: yes. How did the self defense argument get turned from Treyvon who had a self defense argument, to Zimmerman when he (Zimmerman) was the one who was armed with the gun.
How can the person who ignored a police directive and instead went looking for trouble when he aggressively stalked someone thereby being the person who instigated the whole event , then turn around and claim self defense.
I personally call bullshit on the argument that the jury had to rule as the did, they did so by ignoring the above. and giving the verdict they were expected to give,
I do agree with those who say that if the color of those involved had been switched, so would the verdict
RaflW
@Schlemizel:
And ALEC. Can’t let them slither off FL’s stage of shame without a mention in the credits.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Heh. There’s almost something endearing about posters like this. “You’re all fucking morons. now read my three hundred word post about why you’re all so fucking stupid”. Is this what happened to Bernard Finel? Actually I don’t care.
Also, I know you’re quoting someone smarter and more thoughtful than you. Again, don’t care. And you’re an asshole.
taylormattd
They were supposed to determine whether the doubt was “reasonable”.
It wasn’t. Very simple, unless you are 6 racist women from Florida.
Ted & Hellen
@aimai:
Um, because that’s how the judicial system is supposed to work.
Christ.
Ted & Hellen
@Cacti:
That is entirely appropriate and will I’m sure be very effective.
Ted & Hellen
@Cacti:
Ahhh…very interesting…another worm begins to turn.
Ted & Hellen
@Heliopause:
You should be deeply ashamed of yourself you fucking racist asshole who wants all black children killed.
jpe
if that correspondent were actually a lawyer, he’d know that that is also theaw in Wisconsin.
http://www.bednareklawoffice.com/Wisconsin/Penalties-Murder.asp
Bucky Reynolds
If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was white, I will bet anything that he would have been found guilty of murder.
Chaplain Weasle
Question: what if the “person” you’re self-defending against is a fetus or whatever they call them in FL? I’m asking because I used to be a patrol person in a Dept. Public Safety, and then an Autopsy Asst… and there’s a sick joke behind the question, but it makes me wonder?