My favorite blogger in the world, Mr. Charles P. Pierce, started his career as a sportswriter, one good enough that I can enjoy his sports writing even when I don’t pretend to understand the technical aspects of the sport in question. Here’s a sample of his work at Grantland:
… Consider the possibilities that arise from just the bare bones of the story. Hernandez, who was on the verge of becoming a star, and who had just signed a five-year, $40 million extension, is charged in a man’s homicide. Later, we learn that authorities believe his motive may have been to shut that man up, for knowing too much about two other deaths in which Hernandez may have been involved. If these allegations prove true, it means, among other things, that Hernandez played the entire 2012 season after having known of the homicides. Now, he gets back into the news because of a jailhouse beatdown. Nobody wants to talk about Aaron Hernandez, who has pleaded not guilty. They do not want him in the news.
The New England Patriots do not want this. The National Football League does not want this. Both entities have done a masterful job of burying the case in the public mind. There is no question that the absence of Hernandez — especially with the injuries to Rob Gronkowski — materially affected the New England offense last year in every game the team played. Tom Brady was throwing to a receiving corps made up of Julian Edelman and the taxi squad. Hernandez was a gifted receiver in that he was able to play both wideout and tight end. Brady and the Patriots were desperate for exactly that kind of player. And yet the year went on, and the name of Aaron Hernandez rarely was mentioned. He is a nonperson now, living out his life in the shadowlands of celebrity. To mention him is to bring up all kinds of inconvenient questions that chafe the league’s publicity thumpers raw…
This is understandable institutional caution. There was very little the team could say about Aaron Hernandez, whose life is now completely out of his own hands. The same goes for the NFL, which would not like to spend any time on this case at all, not when the entire league is turning itself inside out on the subject of violence, both on and off the field. This is a tenable position for both the team and the league at the moment, but it may not be for long. The closer the case gets to trial, and the further it gets from being resolved without one, the louder the circus calliope will play…
What’s on the agenda for the evening, sports-related or otherwise?
raven
I have to wade through the selection show and then wait for the NIT show to see what happens to my Illini.
Tommy
As a sports nut I can’t believe for a second that New England didn’t know exactly what Hernandez was all about. Just like the team has coaches for everything, the teams also vet these players and know everything about them. You don’t spend tens of millions on a player and not know every skeleton that is in their closet.
They knew about Hernandez but as with all NFL teams they could care less as long as they played well on Sundays. As a huge football fan I hate to admit it, but alas it is true IMHO.
Abo gato
OT, but better late than not at all. I wanted to thank AL for front paging it, and Diana Jarvis for setting up the NYC meetup that we had on March 4th. The talk was good and honestly, I had the best eggplant Parmesan that I have ever had at Ballaro’s that evening. We had Culture of Truth there, Gary Malone, reddirtgirl, JGabriel and an unknown, incognito Katie. Mr Gato and I much enjoyed this. Anytime any of you are in San Antonio, we promise we’ll host. It will be awesome.
Tommy
Oh one other thing. I saw a ton of New England games this year and it was almost never mentioned that Hernandez was in jail for murder. I don’t know how you can cover the game and NOT mention Hernandez when Gronkowski was out for most of the year. I mean that maybe the best QB in football is throwing to basically practice squad receivers is kind of a big deal if you are talking about the game.
Mike E
@raven: Sweet Jeebus, they’re making NC State have to win a play-in game to get to the dance, wow. Prolly better off getting omitted from the NCAA tourny and going to the NIT instead!
SiubhanDuinne
@Abo gato:
It may be a year or more from now, but I do plan to come to San Antone on one of my ancestor-hunting trips. My maternal great-grandparents lived there for years — in fact, I stayed with them during the summer of 1947, when my great-grandfather was dying, and would love to see if their house is still there and if I would remember a thing about it. Regardless, as I take off on driving trips around the US and Canada over the next few years, I hope to meet up with as many BJers as I can find!
ulee
Michael Vick can have all the dogkills he wants on his record, but as long as he can play football, he’s in.
raven
@Mike E: Iowa-Tennessee too and then Kentucky with an 8!
Cervantes
Sports-writing was not his first gig, I don’t think, but I sure do enjoy his work, as you do.
Howard Beale IV
Fred Phelps is on his deathbed. Here’s the twist: he was ex-communicated form his own church last August.
gene108
@Mike E:
It is never better to go to the NIT.
Winning the NIT means your the #69th best team in the country. That’s not much of a consolation prize.
Mike E
@raven: Commish justifying the omissions of SMU and Wis-GB using strength of schedule argument. Virginia better not play too cavalierly with that #1 seed!
raven
@Mike E: Yea. I’m watching it. I’m bummed the NIT show isn’t until 8:30.
raven
fuck it
Cassidy
@ulee: He did his time. Should we keep punishing people after doing their time? Are they not allowed a chance to start life again?
The Dangerman
@Mike E:
Virginia might be the weakest 1 in recent memory; the ACC gets too much love (lets call it the “Duke Effect”). The P12 got too much love, too. SMU got screwed.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Vick did serve his time.
SiubhanDuinne
@Howard Beale IV:
Confusing. Sounds like some of his close family members/children excommunicated Fred. But at the same time, they are keeping their own siblings from visiting Fred’s deathbed. Hatred and revenge must run very deep in that disturbed family.
raven
@The Dangerman: Did you watch UVA play?
Mike E
@gene108: Well, for the sake of decent games and moar longevity I wouldn’t have minded State getting the “special” tourney tag so much here, knowing my local squad…it’ll be one and done for them in the play-in, I’m afraid.
Joel
@Tommy: I’m sure the Patriots had some ideas about what Hernandez did off the field, but this isn’t a Tom Osborne, Nebraska Cornhuskers situation. They cooperated with the authorities.
One case that struck me was the shooting that Marvin Harrison committed right after retiring. What was interesting about it was that he was constantly referred to as a “class act” throughout his playing years, largely as a result of 1) playing with Peyton Manning and 2) no touchdown celebrations. This was in contrast to Terrell Owens, who last I checked never shot anyone.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: So did the dogs. Poor puppies. It’s bullshit and noone should put up with it.
Cervantes
Agendum this evening: Beethoven with Yefim Bronfman and Christoph von Dohnányi.
Console
Pierce’s other Hernandez article, http://grantland.com/features/aaron-hernandez-death-odin-lloyd, is also really good.
Howard Beale IV
@SiubhanDuinne: Ya-it be a weird situation there.
The Dangerman
@raven:
A couple times. What was their RPI again?
ETA: RPI of 12.
Villago Delenda Est
Peter King (R-NY) is a loudmouthed ignoramus.
In other news, the sun rose in the east today, and water is wet.
Tommy
@Joel: Well say what you will about New England, they do have a stud for an owner. He is smart enough to know that if they didn’t help the police, well the team would take a huge hit. I mean it seems beating your wife, DUIs, well those never seem to get much attention. But this was in fact a murder.
raven
@The Dangerman: I’m not sure and I don’t really care. That is one good basketball team that plays as a team. Their RPI may not have been what you want in a #1 seed but they are good.
Cervantes
@SiubhanDuinne:
We would be shocked otherwise.
The Dangerman
@raven:
Didn’t say they weren’t good; just said they are a weak 1.
ETA: Looks to me as if the seeders overvalued tournament results; I don’t see UCLA as a 4, either.
ranchandsyrup
Beautiful summery day today. Was already 88 degrees at noon when we posted up at a local resort pool. Tired from chucking our oldest all over the pool and beat down by the sun. The staff there lets us hang out as long as we tip well.
Tommy
@Console: There is a lot I don’t understand about say the NBA and NFL. Like I don’t know how the NFL can tell somebody they are of legal working age has to go to college first.
raven
@The Dangerman: And I just asked if you’d seen them play. There’s always something not to like.
SiubhanDuinne
@Cervantes:
JELLUS!!!
geg6
I’m just happy to see Pitt is going to the dance even if they have little to no chance of going very far. I really didn’t think they’d get a bid.
The Dangerman
@raven:
One game here or there doesn’t much matter, good or bad; for example, UCLA just got trounced by some shitty team from some backwater town in Bumfuck, WA (Hi Yats!). That’s why going to a season long metric like RPI is useful…
SiubhanDuinne
@Cervantes:
When I was General Manager of the Battle Creek (MI) Symphony, in the early ’80s, Bronfman was the guest artist for the first concert I managed (booked, obviously, by my predecessor). Nice introduction to that world.
BGK
I came home last night to find my cat Angus hiding in the corner, unable to walk. By the way his right front leg was twisted, I thought he broke it. Emergency vet found no fracture and that he can’t move the leg and feels no stimulus in it. The emergency vet suspects nerve damage from some unknown trauma. He has no external sign of injury.
He can’t walk as a result and won’t eat. I force-fed him kitten milk and he drank water on his own. He’s terribly scared and frustrated and it’s killing me to watch. He sees a veterinary neurologist on Tuesday. No sign of a stroke or tumor but nothing else definite. He’s laying next to me now and I don’t know what more I can do for him.
Cassidy
@ulee: You know what, I’m convinced. Anyone who has ever been to jail should be marked and scorned for life. I’m thinking we brand them right in the forehead. What do you think?
Schlemizel
I have told the story here before so I won’t repeat it again. The salt-of-the-earth-god-fearing-farmers of rural Nebraska whining about how unfair it was that the media was exposing the murders, rapists and robbers that played college football in their state. My guess is that the cornhuskers were not as rare a mob as we would like to pretend. These stories keep popping up and people keep forgiving and forgetting as long as the team is competitive. And these are the feeder programs for the
CTENFL. Its a shame for the decent humans who play the game but all it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.Schlemizel
@BGK:
That sounds like a horror story! I can’t imagine how awful you both must feel. I hope the vet finds something & can fix it.
Catherine D.
I first heard Charlie on Only A Game back in 2000/2001 when he referred to the Avignon Presidency. My reaction was holy crap, that’s a sports reporter!?
And BKG, my bestest wishes to Angus and you.
ulee
@Cassidy: I think that you should own a business, hire someone who fought dogs until they were mangled or dead and say– OK, its a go on this guy–. As for me, I wouldn’t hire the guy.
JPL
@BGK: How sad. I had a golden that had no strength in his hind legs and it was a stroke. He was able to work through it although it took several weeks. He was twelve at the time and lived until he was over sixteen.
Tommy
@Schlemizel: I think a lot of fans bury their heads in the sand. My beloved LSU, nobody is saying anything wrong happened there, but Les Miles when he was at OSU before coming to LSU, well reporting last year showed a whole lot of shit was going on.
I just have come to the conclusion that if your are a major program if you are not breaking the actual law you are breaking NCAA rules on a daily basis.
Abo gato
@SiubhanDuinne: do you have their old address? I would be happy to do some looking around for you.
SiubhanDuinne
@Catherine D.:
Oh yeah, Charlie is as smart as a whip and better-read than the great majority of Ph.D.s I know. (Of the latter group, I daresay about 25% of them might recognise the Avignon Presidency reference.)
kindness
When is the NFL draft?
Violet
@ulee: President Obama thought he should get a second chance:
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne:
I would guess it varies by discipline. Biologists doing worse than European historians, for example.
Tommy
@Violet: Don’t know why Obama needed to get into this. With that said, of all the folks I’ve heard say they are sorry for something, I actually kind of believed Vick was in fact sorry. And that says a lot since I am kind of a dog lover and what he did was about as bad as you get outside of rape and murder.
SiubhanDuinne
@Abo gato:
Thank you so much. Unfortunately no, I thought to go to the local library and check out the City Directories for the mid-40s, but I doubt they’re available on line.
If you feel like poking around at your absolute convenience, the name would be James L. or J. L. Nichols. It’s possible I would recognise the street address if I were to see it, but I sure wouldn’t bank on it (after all, I was just 5).
ulee
@Cassidy: And I believe that people should be given a chance. I used to paint houses and I’ve worked with people who were on work release on condition they not reoffend. That is fine. I always wanted them to do well. I did not think they deserved to earn millions of dollars, despite their abilities, and if they did it should go back to the victims. Michael Vick can earn, but every dime, other than living expenses, should go back to his victims, though that cannot save them from his evil.
WereBear
@BGK: How terribly sad. And how confusing for him.
At least you are there.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus: Of course! Many of the people I know are historians and political scientists, so I’m probably underestimating a bit. But the lit folks, let alone the STEM people, are unlikely to know anything about the Papacy in the 14th century.
Violet
@Tommy: I think he “got involved” as you say because Vick is a black man who went to prison for a crime, did his time, got out and someone gave him a job. That’s something that doesn’t happen for a lot of black men after they’ve been in prison. I think the President was addressing it from that angle.
There are a lot of problems with our prison system, courts, the way so many young black men end up in jail/prison and part of that problem is that they have serious trouble finding a job when they get out. Of course Michael Vick had a highly prized skill, but still, teams were wary of hiring him. I think the President saw it as an opportunity to highlight this issue and hopefully encourage others to give former prisoners a chance.
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne: Lit folks need to be able to place literature in the context of its time. Knowledge of history is key to that. Art historians would know. Anyway, I think you are underestimating. But then, I too often presume historical literacy when I am conversing with people and find myself having to explain….
@Violet: Bingo.
Tommy
@Violet:
I am totally with you there. Plus when we have for profit prisons, the folks can be evil part of me thinks it is planned to almost work this way. If they can’t get jobs and they are sent back to prison, well somebody makes a buck.
Violet
@SiubhanDuinne: You can find archived Texas telephone directories here. You can’t search but you can hire a proxy researcher, apparently.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Agree about art historians and lit historians generally. Most of the academics I know are/were specialists in Canadian Studies, however that may have informed their own discipline. Centuries after the Avignon Papacy, in any case.
But maybe I am doing them a disservice. I probably am. Sorry, guys.
Howard Beale IV
20 essential facts every dog lover must understand.
SiubhanDuinne
@Violet:
That’s hugely helpful!! Thanks so much for the link.
ETA: In fact, it will help me with family research throughout the state back to the 1890s and possibly even earlier, so thank you again! What a good resource!
Omnes Omnibus
@Tommy:
No, it is simpler than that. People decide that someone went to prison and that the person is now a criminal. They then quit thinking about that person as a person.
WereBear
Here’s the thing about Vick: what he did was messed up. Deeply, deeply, wrong.
I don’t know why that doesn’t bother more people than it does.
This isn’t someone roped into a convenience store robbery with a jittery accomplice who shot someone. This isn’t someone who freaked out when a romantic partner was revealed to be cheating or something and they lash out. This isn’t an abused child, now an adult, who murders the parent when they feel cornered. These are poor judgment and poor impulse control and poor choices, no question, but they are understandable.
But even in a field known for its cruelty, Vick wasn’t about the money. He was about the cruelty. Sure, he did his time.
But are you going to hire him to work in your daycare facility? Why not?
Violet
@SiubhanDuinne: You’re welcome! Perhaps someone who is in Austin and has a minute would be willing to help you out. Might be a fun project. If I were there I’d go do it–I enjoy genealogy stuff.
Gex
@ulee: Gee, that’s a funny response. Because your very first post on this seems to take exception to the fact that he is playing in the NFL.
You complained not about what he is earning, but that he was even back in the NFL. Now you say you believe people should get second chances. Which is it?
Console
Well, Vick went to jail for gambling, which shouldn’t be illegal in the first place.
ulee
Omnes. It is not as simple as saying a person is a person, Sometimes a person is a violent person. And hopefully, we will help that person not to be a violent person. But yet, that person was a violent person, and history is not to be discounted. This is not disrespect, it’s just the truth.
PurpleGirl
@BGK: I hope the doctor will be help him figure out what happened. Give him a hug and scritches for me; {{{{{hugs}}}}} for you.
SiubhanDuinne
@Violet:
But, you know, I don’t mind at all doing my own digging — in fact, I enjoy it. When I pay more attention to the Texas trip, I’ll be making a list of all the family-connected place names I know — Uvalde, Cline (sp?), San Antonio, MacAllen — and will work out an itinerary that encompasses them all.
Console
@ulee:
He plays a sport where people beat each other into a pulp, and your fear is that that sport might endorse a violent man?
JPL
@WereBear: Hate to say it but it was also part of the culture. It sickens and shocks me that people get a kick out of animal fights. He did serve his time and he got another chance to play ball. Hopefully, his work with ASPCA will continue. I don’t like the guy but I don’t begrudge second chances.
Joel
The Vick thing is weird. I mean, outrageous animal abuse is foundational to our food chain, and I imagine a significant number of breeders do pretty awful things to dogs (if livestock abuse doesn’t raise your ire).
On the other hand, Ben Roethlisberger was never made to stand trial.
Anne Laurie
@Omnes Omnibus:
To wrap back to the last post, it’s sometimes too easy for us to dismiss someone who’s committed a crime as ‘less than human’. And once “we” have reduced an individual to less-than-human, there’s a profit to be made in exploiting them in ways that wouldn’t be allowed for certified citizens of the community. The private prison / probation industry exists for the same reason dogs eat dung — it ain’t pretty, but it’s a living (for the people at the top of the profit pyramid, quite a nice living).
ulee
@Console: I’m not sure what you mean, but Vick paid and endorsed the killing sport. Of dogs. In America, you don’t fuck with the puppies.
Tommy
@JPL: I think Herm Edwards helped him a lot. Mentored Vick after he got out of jail. I don’t think there is a single person that has ever had a bad word to say about Herm. I don’t know if Vick called him. The NFL. But maybe the smartest thing Vick ever did.
WereBear
@Joel: Dog fighting is illegal. In many places (not enough) puppy mills are illegal. And inhumane farm animal treatment should be more illegal than it is.
“Common” and “right” are two different things. It doesn’t have the be that way.
Which is the point.
SiubhanDuinne
@BGK: How awful! I’m so sorry. Poor kitty, I hope you can keep him comfortable, and of course I hope the vet can figure out what is going on so it can be addressed and fixed. If he will accept long-distance skritches under the chin and behind the ears, please give him some from me.
Do let us know what’s going on once you know yourself.
Violet
@WereBear: He said he was first exposed to dogfighting at age eight in the housing project he lived in. That sort of thing shouldn’t be happening, but it is. And the Humane Society values his outreach.
Botsplainer
Sports writers are the last true fact based journalists.
Even sports punditry is better than regular punditry.
Tommy
@WereBear: I was stunned living in Louisiana how many people openly talked about going to cock fights. I never heard about dog fights, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they were not all around me. I mean if you’ll fight chickens it doesn’t seem like that much of a leap to fighting dogs.
Betty Cracker
I hope Vick dies slowly of crotch rot. Fuck that cruel, dog-torturing piece of shit. But he belongs in the NFL as much as the rapists, abusers and killers who are already there, so it’s not like he sullies that institution with his scummy presence.
That said, yeah, stigmatization of ex-cons is a huge problem, and it’s likely exacerbated by the fact that the forces that profit from prison labor make even more money when people who are trapped in the prison-industrial complex (largely black men) can’t get a break when they’re released.
PurpleGirl
@ulee: A large amount of money should go to animal rescue groups every year from now on. He can play, he can be an announcer, whatever, but he should have to fund animal rescue groups and shelters.
Mike E
@Violet: Yep, they’re still skeptical yet hopeful his recovery continues while a lot of important “1st person” advocacy against such cruelty can be done, maybe long after his playing days are over. This is why I root for him…and I definitely wasn’t a fan of his before/during/after that dog cruelty period of his fame (or infamy), and yet I cheer every time he keeps on keeping on even when the rotten maters continue to fly. Something good will happen; hell, it already has.
Tommy
@PurpleGirl: The problem is he was so in the hole I don’t think he has any money to give away. I also think they would prefer his time over his money. That he could help them raise more money then he could ever afford to give them.
Anne Laurie
@WereBear:
Glad I’m not called upon to judge, but from what I’ve read (mostly from the dog rescuer’s end of the argument), it really seems that Vick wasn’t deliberately cruel; he just didn’t understand that the very cruel and terrible acts he committed/permitted were not “how things are”. Hey, pitbulls love fighting and violent stuff, right? Everybody (around Vick) knew that!
Getting arrested, being punished, seems to have been a true learning experience for Vick. He had the chance to learn that dogs have feelings beyond hunger and the drive for dominance. He seems to have internalized these lessons, for the better.
I’ll admit I’m a bit prejudiced. My Midwestern dog guru, no liberal politically, was responsible for setting up a dog-training program at a state prison, where inmates earned the right to work with dogs towards a certificate that would help them get jobs once they were back in the community. The men were, of course, forbidden to hit or even shout at the (rescued from local shelters) dogs. It was, she said, eye-opening to discover how many of the men in this program had no idea of training or learning that didn’t involve hitting & shouting — it was all they’d ever been exposed to, starting as far back as they could remember. Many of them were pleased to discover that this new-fangled ‘postive reinforcement’ learning worked almost as well on their sweethearts, kids, and even the prison guards as it did on the dogs… these were grown men who’d never been in a position to contemplate interactions that didn’t involve aggression and threat-posturing.
Vick was obviously raised better than that — he only assaulted humans on the football field, for money — but I’m willing to believe he just hadn’t been exposed to a method of dog-raising that didn’t involve violence and exploiting the dogs he ‘loved’ for profit.
Mike with a Mic
It’s Titanfall game night, so much fun. If anyone has EA origin and wants to mob up in game let me know.
Mike E
Heh, The Warriors parody on The Simpsons.
Console
@ulee:
I get it, but it’s still really surreal. Watchers of human cock fighting (the NFL) raining judgments down about a guy fighting dogs.
FlipYrWhig
@BGK: oh, poor boy. I hope you can figure out what’s going on.
Cassidy
@ulee: Hell yeah. Let’s brand them on the forehead with “felon” and create some cardboard housing for them. We can fence them in and they’re only allowed to wear burlap clothing and when they’re not working for their meager spending money they have to stand on the street and whip themselves.
PurpleGirl
@Howard Beale IV: A number of those facts can also apply to cats. I got mushy at the end of it.
Violet
@Anne Laurie: This is my understanding too. That he simply didn’t get it because everyone around him was into dogfighting. Maybe somewhere along the way he should have realized, but he didn’t. And he paid for that.
gene108
@ulee:
Doggies don’t have the legal standing to receive monetary restitution.
*******************************************
I understand people have an emotional attachment to dogs (and cats) in this country, but we handsomely reward large scale meat producers (the owners, not the actual workers) for treating cows, pigs, and chickens in a cruel manner.
Rodeos are watched for entertainment, but I believe they get broncos and bulls to buck by tying a rope around the animal’s genitals.
What Vick did was cruel, but I do not think it is any more cruel than other socially acceptable ways of mistreating animals for profit and sport that are very common.
FlipYrWhig
@Anne Laurie: that story about cons having an epiphany that there can be learning without fear and intimidation… That kind of made me gasp. Like, of course that would be an issue. But I never once thought of it before.
Heliopause
Danny Amendola on line one…
This is the part that really doesn’t make sense to me. There are what, 1600-1700 active NFL players during the regular season? It’s actually astonishing that there aren’t more violent criminals in that cohort of young males.
Tommy
@Heliopause: That is exactly what the NFL says and there is some logic to it. Give a lot of young men a ton of money and it is my experience a lot of bad things can happen. But the resources the teams offer are staggering. In fact the NFL makes each team hire a car service. If you are out at a bar and had a few, a free car service is a phone call away. Just one of many things the teams do.
ulee
@Cassidy: Why are you so angry about this? I just don’t want dogs to be beaten and killed. I think people should be held accountable.
Mike E
TROuleeLL…wait, uh, DougJ?
ulee
@gene108: Gene, you’re right. Maybe we should draw the line and then draw the line again.
Cassidy
@ulee: I’m not angry, man. I’m with ya. Just going to prison and doing time isn’t enough. They must be punished for the rest of their lives. No redemption, no chance for rehabilitation, they must wake up every day and prostrate themselves before us for forgiveness.
Sounds pretty silly doesn’t it? He was held accountable and he’s making amends. What he did was horrible, but I see nothing wrong with being happy about a redemption story.
ulee
@Cassidy: You’re right. I believe in rehabiltation. I just am angry at the motherfucker. He’s sorry? Alright, pay up.
Heywood J.
Great article, love Pierce’s writing. The crazy thing is that Hernandez might just get away with all this.
Open thread pimpology: Folks, I slapped together yet another Kindle collection, and it is available for free until midnight tonight, if you’re inclined to support a lowly bloggerses. Thanks!
WereBear
Certainly, I’m familiar with that kind of situation.
I just dislike the kind of facile “well, he did his time” when it comes to gratuitously cruel actions. It’s the difference between the bookie who gets people beaten up when they are late with the payments… and the one who gets sadistic.
There is a line there.
different-church-lady
@Cassidy:
At the rate body modification is going, they might already have branded foreheads before you even get a chance at them.
Mike E
Holy sheeuhht, Family Guy is really going for it…you know, like always. Damn.
debit
@gene108: Anytime money becomes involved, humanity tends to fly out the window. Doesn’t matter if it’s dog fighting, rodeos or horse shows. I could tell you horror stories about what goes on the Arabian horse show world, but I’ll spare you.
@BGK: Waiting is the worst when you know your pet is in pain. All you can do is comfort him and keep doing what you’re doing. Hope you get some good news when you see the vet.
gene108
@ulee:
Yeah, short of everyone going vegetarian or vegan, what’s the point?
I remember when Vick was signed. The local Phily sports talk radio guys were going on and on about never accepting Vick because of what he did to dogs.
All the while they were doing remote broadcasts at local eateries downing dead pigs and cows, with no concern about how much it must’ve hurt to get butchered or how short and tortured those animal’s lives must have been.
Dogs are sacred animals in America.
I understand that.
I just wish the rest of the country would come out and admit it and quit with this “animal lover” crap. People are dog and cat lovers. Period.
The rest of the animals are just tasty treats.
To me that’s the central hypocrisy over many people’s indignation over what Vick did, because so many of them happily contribute to animal cruelty one strip of bacon or one burger at a time.
Cassidy
@ulee: Dude/ette I’m not an animal lover, but I get it. OTOH, that’s a place we don’t want to go. The system is punishing enough as it is. We should celebrate success stories when we get them. He served his time. Now he’s doing outreach and I’d imagine no small amount of donations.
gene108
@debit:
How many people in the Arabian horse show world go to jail?
I think one of them even failed up to head FEMA.
Dogs and cats are sacred.
The rest of the animal kingdom are tasty treats.
WereBear
What about the people who buy from cruelty-free farms? There’s a huge difference between the cows who stand around in fields their whole lives and meet a humane end and the cows who barely survive in factory farms.
Pretending there isn’t any difference is pointless in trying to reduce animal cruelty.
Suzanne
@WereBear:
All of those things you listed are worse than what Michael Vick did.
What Vick did was undeniably awful, but in our society, there’s all kinds of things to we to animals that are pretty fucking horrible that we do as long as the animal tastes good.
Not to mention, no matter how much we love our animals, the untimely death of a person is something entirely different. Entirely.
Heywood J.
@BGK: That’s very sad, I hope Angus is okay.
WereBear
@Suzanne: Someone killing their abuser is worse than a person who steals other people’s pets to use as bait in dog fighting?
I’m out of this discussion. It makes no sense to me.
Betty Cracker
@efgoldman: You’re right. The Hernandez story was covered heavily in FL too, where he played college ball.
Heliopause
@efgoldman:
He played 12 regular season and two playoff games.
Mike E
And the troll wins another thread!
ulee
@Cassidy: I am an animal lover and the system should punish his ass and punish it again.
Cassidy
@ulee: That’s the wrong answer and the wrong thing to do.
ulee
figuratively, I mean. Hell, I ain’t republican.
Susan K of the tech support
Sports related. Oh yes. As a basketball booster aunt, I sit here, hoarse throated, because my nephew’s basketball team has been playing in the NCAAD2 Western Region Championships. He plays for Chico State.
They won the opener. (in fact, all 4 teams from the CCAA — the Calif Collegiate Athletic Assn — won their games. Have a growing respect for the CCAA, a highly competitive conference with a lotta talent).
Last night, they won the semi-final against the top seed of the region. Sweet 16!
Monday night is the region final, and a re-match of the conference title game from a week ago. (Grudge match. Chico lost that) The winner of Monday night’s game goes on to play in the Elite Eight!
I’m not one of these traditionally sports-sports-sports-sports-sports kindsa people. But, having supported my nephew, I of course support his team. A great group of guys.
Yelling and cheering from the sideline takes a lot out of me (did I mention I was hoarse?), but oh my, is it a lotta fun.
Having a great time and discovering a well of surprising joy from all of this.
Happy March Madness, yall.
Schlemizel
@Tommy:
Bear Bryant was quoted by SI as saying “90% of college football programs abide by the NCAA regulations – the other 10% go to bowl games!”
In a culture where cheating is not only expected it is required why feign shock when the culture produces people who do all sorts of bad things?
Susan K of the tech support
@Schlemizel: In light of your NCAA observations (football and D1, I assume), I guess it’s a better thing to be in NCAA div 2. In my exceedingly tiny realm of experience.
(plus, OMG, just hearing about last nigth about the kinda sleep-deprived academic work that had to be done between conf championship and NCAA regionals! looks like in this case, things are on the up and up.)
eemom
@ulee:
@WereBear:
With you two on this, totally and absolutely.
@Console:
That is one of the most moronic fucking things I’ve ever read on here, which is saying quite a lot. Um, the human “cocks” have a choice about what they’re doing.
gbear
@BGK: I don’t know where you’re located, but my vet’s office in St. Paul, MN has an office kitty with spinal injuries and can’t use her back legs. The kitty and her history are at the bottom of the Staff page of their website. That kitty is doing fine despite her disability. You might want to give them a call if you have questions about how to deal with your poor kitty’s problems. you can let them know that Al suggested you call (I just rehomed my wonderful Russian Blue to their receptionist’s mom because my older cat wouldn’t accept him).
That said, I really hope that your kitty recovers.
gwangung
@ulee:
Coulda fooled me. You talk just like one on this subject.
That should chill you. Seriously.
ulee
@gwangung: Chill yourself, seriously.
Ruckus
@Cassidy:
How about we use their prisoner number on their forearm?
@Anne Laurie:
We are products of our environment/upbringing. We can change but we have to see that other ways work and work better to change who we are.
Vick was convicted, sentenced and served his time for his actions. And he has, from all accounts changed for the better. That is enough for me. He deserves a second chance. There are people who do worse things, go through the same steps and get worse not better. I am tired of everything being about punishment and very little about getting better. People make mistakes and do stupid things all the time. It’s the nature of being human and alive all at the same time. If no one can move on, get better, the world will always be a crap hole for most of us. You have to be able to recover or you might as well just be another asshole and grab all you can.
Suzanne
@WereBear: Revenge killing of a person vs. stealing and killing animals? Yeah, killing a person is worse. Short of actual in-the-moment defense of oneself or another, killing a person, even a bad one, is about the worst thing you can do. That’s by no means an assertion that killing animals is acceptable or reasonable or okay by any stretch.
Console
@eemom:
And you have a choice in being complicit in it. The money doesn’t come from thin air.
burnspbesq
@Console:
Protip: Don’t ever hire Charles Pierce to provide advice on antitrust law.
burnspbesq
@The Dangerman:
If watching today’s Duke-Virginia game leaves you with doubts about whether Virginia is legit, you don’t understand college basketball. The Hoos are the best defensive team of the last decade.
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: I think the point is the depravity of the act. If someone kills an innocent random person just for kicks and someone else snaps under constant abuse and kills the abuser, both are homicides, but most people would recognize the former act as more egregious and depraved than the latter.
Now, you could argue that a human life is always more valuable than any animal’s. I wouldn’t agree in every case (if Dick Cheney and a rabbit suddenly appeared in front of my speeding car, I’d swerve to spare the bunny).
But I think the point is that Vick did something so heinous and cruel — for sport! — that it’s incomprehensible.
My view is that Vick did his time and isn’t necessarily worse than the many other horrible human beings in the NFL. I don’t think he should be denied a living.
But damned if I’m obligated to find his so-called redemption heartwarming or inspiring. I don’t buy the line about him not knowing any better either. Bullshit. He knew it was wrong and cruel, and he did it anyway. Fuck him.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: I can buy your first point, but I have to say that, given the choice to swerve to avoid killing a person vs. an animal, I would always choose the person. Even Dick Cheney. I do not believe in capital punishment for this very reason. Human life is beyond price. Animals are wonderful and special, and our morality and compassion and sense of responsibility to our environment should have us protect them and treat them with respect and love, but they are not people. Even if I like them more than I like some people.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: Here’s a hypothetical: is what Michael Vick did worse than what Ben Roethlisberger did? Because on this very blog, when I bring up that some people here continue to cheer for Roethlisberger to win at A SPORT (yes, just a sport) due to their tribal allegiances even though the man committed rape, I was told to shut the fuck up. In those words.
Console
@burnspbesq:
You don’t think the NFL would lose an antitrust lawsuit about the draft (assuming there was no collective bargaining agreement in place)?
Cassidy
It’s all about perspective. When your plane crashes in the Andes, who becomes a meal first: people or the dog? I got dibs on a leg quarter.
eemom
@Console:
I’m not complicit, asshole — I don’t watch football.
@Betty Cracker:
As always, you stated it perfectly. You’re better than this place deserves.
@Suzanne:
And you’re a simplistic, self-congratulatory 12 year old. Again.
James E. Powell
@Console:
For the sake of discussion, leave aside the niceties of statutory construction and case law (as the Chief Justice is wont to do) and tell me the last time the owners of one our nation’s gravy trains had their control of said gravy train taken away by the supreme court.
Console
@eemom:
Well then imagine that “you” being the nfl watching public in general that hates Vick. This shit ain’t rocket science.
@James E. Powell:
Heh, touche.
Jamey
@Tommy: We Giants fans have a few bad things to say about Herman Edwards …
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: I think Roethlisberger is a scumbag too. I don’t think he was convicted of rape though, right? Still, I’m in the “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” camp and tend to believe his accusers.
I wonder if the folks who think Vick haters should just let it go because Vick served his time would be okay with Roethlisberger dating their sisters since the legal system declined to lock his ass up? Or if they’d be cool with Vick as their personal dog sitter?
Bottom line for me is that, while everyone makes mistakes, there are some actions that mark the performer as a heartless, irredeemable piece of shit. Drowning, electrocuting and beating dogs to death is one of those actions. Harming children is another. Serially abusing weaker people is another.
I’m not saying that anyone who runs afoul of my personal standards for human beings should be locked up forever or denied the ability to make a living after serving their time. But I don’t have to buy their redemption stories, believe their excuses for the inexcusable or be impressed with their rehabilitation tours.
grishaxxx
IMO, sportswriters often make very fine critics elsewhere. Think about it. They are giving narrative, action detail, and some kind of dramatic shape to an event in real time, with locations, persons and stats they know so well that they can draw on them – seemingly from the air, but really from the earth – to make informed judgments on the fly. How is that different from watching a movie no one else has ever seen? Or a concert of new music, or a new club band, or anything when it’s the first time?
The discipline of reporting sports is tough, and develops critical muscle, and shows talent when the talent is there. We all have opinions, but I’d like to see a fraction of the people who pronounce on any given movie to give me a reasoned account of a football or hockey or baseball or basketball game. If they could, I’d listen to them on other stuff.
cmorenc
@Mike E:
Warren is that special talented player who, combined with good coaching, can carry a decent, though otherwise ordinary, average team as far as the round of sixteen, provided they don’t run into a quality opponent playing at their peak. Davidson did that with Curry a few years back, and came within a missed shot of making the final 4. Heck, Valvano’s national championship team in 83 *never* should have made it out of the first or second rounds out in Corvallis – I lived out there at the time and was at those games, and they were a dead team walking down 4 twice, opponent in possession, under 2 to go in the days of no shot clock (but the indefinite 1-and-1 foul shot bonus was still in effect, which is what saved them).
That said, my bet is that the current NC State squad beats Xavier, has a 50-50 shot at the (now second) true first round of the tournament, but doesn’t make it out of the round of 32.