Here is what I don’t understand about the blue dog coalition– aren’t they from predominantly rural areas where poverty is generally deeper and there are far more uninsured?
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by John Cole| 96 Comments
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Here is what I don’t understand about the blue dog coalition– aren’t they from predominantly rural areas where poverty is generally deeper and there are far more uninsured?
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MikeJ
These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know, morons.
DougJ
Yes, that is true. On the other hand, I’ve heard that with this specific bill (in the House), there may be some issues on how it will affect rural health care. So I think there may be some good faith arguments mixed in with the bad ones.
NonyNony
So are a lot of Republicans. Doesn’t stop them from not caring either.
The Grand Panjandrum
C’mon John! Get with the program… you know these folks don’t want the gummint’s greasy mitts all over their Medicare. Sheesh!
Hunter Gathers
The answer to both is yes. The reason they suck so much is that the people they represent are rubes.
schrodinger's cat
We want Tunch and Lilly, health care debate is too depressing to follow.
A Mom Anon
They’ve succeeded in scaring the shit out of people who aren’t overly informed.
We also have a population of elderly people who are isolated socially and watch alot of tv or listen to alot of radio. They’re now being scared shitless by all this euthanasia talk and there’s no rational voice out there telling them otherwise.
different church-lady
Silly boy — they’re from K Street.
Steve LaBonne
Those people in their districts aren’t their REAL constituents. Their real constituents are the corporations that fatten their campaign coffers. They’re serving them just fine.
srv
Republican farmers will not be happy until they are all indentured servants to the king. Or queen, if she’s as well spoken as Palin.
burnspbesq
“Do what he say, doo what he saaaaay…”
I understand that “more Democrats” is a necessary condition to “more and better Democrats,” but this intermediate stage is awfully frustrating.
Ed in NJ
Obama has allowed the entire debate about health care reform to be co-opted by Republicans and the special interests. Instead of tying health care reform to the growing number of unemployed and insisting that it was part of the economic recovery, made the focus the public option.
The problem is that during the campaign Obama let McCain/Palin and their supporters lie and exaggerate all they wanted, knowing that the American people weren’t that dumb to believe all the stuff they were throwing at him. But a funny thing happened. They laid the groundwork with all the talk of socialism and ultra liberal policies. So now the lies about government takeover of healthcare don’t seem so farfetched and people aren’t as invested in rooting out the truth as they are in an election.
Hopefully Obama learns from this debacle. He came into office too trusting of the Republicans to play fairly. In some ways it proves he wasn’t experienced enough. I still wouldn’t rather have anyone else there today, but he needs to start playing hardball and take control of these issues instead of deferring to Congress.
Kryptik
The answer is simple:
The Free Market solves everything. If these people aren’t getting their health care, well that means that they’re just not working hard enough. Who are their constituents to argue with that kind of logic?! After all, they voted the blue dogs in!
…ok, running bet, how long until that becomes the next anti-health reform talking point?
El Cid
It just means that their constituents are more moral and more American than everyone else, because they are willing to suffer, go bankrupt, and die, so that the good and benevolent wealthy might live to make America more prosperous and better.
They’re sort of American saints.
Tsulagi
Yeah, probably more poverty and uninsureds, but the Dogs are likely barking for their area business owners who don’t want to provide or offer health insurance even if employees pick up most of the cost.
Just Some Fuckhead
Here is a national map breaking down the blue dogs congressional districts. They appear to be mostly rural.
Xel
One word: lobbyists.
Martin
Health care concerns in rural areas are a LOT different than concerns in urban ones. Access to care is one of the biggest worries and companies will build hospitals and clinics and such in more rural areas because they can charge more in exchange for the lower volume. The marketplace isn’t exactly /good/ at this, but it is happening and some people are worried that under a system where government has more control over pricing but /doesn’t/ actually run the hospitals that nobody will be able to afford to run a hospital out in the sticks, and that anyone in a rural area that needs a routine matter taken care of will need to drive an hour to their closest big city.
Now, that worry overlooks a LOT of bad things that have occurred over the last 20 years due to the insurance marketplace working in favor of Republicans, things that may well reverse (such as more community doctors) under an Obama plan, but they’ve already lost a lot and are afraid to lose more. I don’t fault them on this. Dems have done a terrible job explaining how this will look to various kinds of consumers because they’re too wrapped up in the deficit discussions (which almost nobody gives a fuck about).
General Winfield Stuck
It is because they are in rural areas they are being stubborn. The people are largely low income and have a high usage of Medicaid. While the Blue Dogs holler about cost and paying for a HC bill (as most dems want to do), it is not their main concern. They are fearful that rural areas and medicaid , and Medicare reimbursements will become sacrificial goats to lower the overall cost, and other elements of a bill where rural folks get the shaft. It is not an unfounded concern, as rurla folks get screwed regularly by the system concerned more with high population centers. I’m not that worried about them in the House and most will get onboard when they get assurances that protect their voters. It’s the damn Senate that will be the stumbling block, if there is one.
itsbenj
well, yes, these are the rubes recruited by Rahm Emanuel to run in races where there was already an established Repub candidate as Dems, despite the fact that they are basically Republicans. being ignorant silly people from small, back-country areas means that it is all the more easy for insurance companies to impress these folks with what would otherwise seem like meager sums – donations in the tens-of-thousands of dollars range.
stop even asking yourself if Congress people care about their constituents! it’s a hilariously antiquated notion. fact is, these guys have no core beliefs, and are, simply put, very easy to bribe. the ‘I come from a conservative district’ bit is a distraction. as if their constituents keep track of things like how they voted on what issue! they could very easily vote for reform while doing their weird ‘rah rah, America F#CK YEAH!’ routine on the campaign trail. but they’d rather take the money and feel powerful.
c u n d gulag
“…aren’t they from predominantly rural areas where poverty is generally deeper and there are far more uninsured?”
Yes, and the only electronic media they get comes via FOX, Rush, Hannity, etc. O’Reilly is looked upon as either straight-forward, or, at time leftward leaning (believe me, I just recently escaped from North Carolina back to New York).
Op-ed’s in newpapers only have Krauthammer/Kristol style opinions.
You try getting throught to people who know only one thing. That Liberal’s are evil, and so are any ideas that any of them might have.
Danton
One of the House Blue Dogs is my rep. I’m in the South, but a suburban area outside a major city. The district encompasses a whole lot of suburbia but also a large rural and predominantly agricultural area. Said rep. often votes very progressively, but this is a predominantly GOP region–lot’s of small-business white collar/salesman-woman types, lots of service-sector jobs, lots of real estate development employment, etc., etc. I’m sure a helluva lot of these people are “house poor” (that’s what you get for buying a 2,400 sq. ft. piece of crap put up in 10-14 days), up to their ears in car payments, and shelling out quite a bit of their bi-weekly salary on a health insurance policy with a high deductible. They’ve watched their 401(k)s and Roth IRAs plunge in value, they’ve paid and expect to again pay $4 a gallon for gas, and for them Wal-Mart is beginning to look like an expensive place to buy food. Every TV in a public place is tuned to Fox.
This is a roundabout way of saying the people here are pretty receptive to fearmongering and are scared witless of the dreaded “public option”
One more note. Interestingly enough, a lot of the rural people seem more open-minded around here. In a hardware/farm supply store in the fall, for instances, I heard a guy in overalls say he thought Obama was probably a lot like FDR. I’ve heard other rural folks speak approvingly of him, too. Might just be my impression, though.
General Winfield Stuck
@Martin:
We be on the same wavelength this morning
MikeN
Rural voters have been voting against their own interests forever. They are proud of their poverty and bolster themselves with badges of godliness and patriotism and ‘common sense’.
mistermix
Don’t forget “old” along with rural and poor. Let them try to change anything in Medicare, and you’ll hear the Blue Dogs howl.
Also, unlike safe seat Maxine Waters, the Blue Dogs need as much political theater as possible. If your Rep is in the news all the time because his/her group swung legislation, then it’s another reason to cross over at the ballot box.
Martin
@General Winfield Stuck:
Indeed we are. As it happens I’ve been told a thing or two about how insurers operate in rural areas.
Betsy
@Danton:
I think you are right. I actually think there is a huge amount of stereotyping in this thread about poor and rural voters. Many of them are culturally/religiously conservative, yes. But they tend to be economically progressive – remember, they were the ones who created the Populist movement and co-ops; they supported FDR, etc. It’s the WEALTHY (and upper-middle-class) farmers and ranchers, rural and suburban voters who tend to be opposed to state economic interventions that benefit the poor.
Paul L.
You forgot include this quote about the Blue Dogs Constituents.
ironranger
If people can barely afford their health insurance, they certainly aren’t going to spend much money, except for the basic necessities, at local businesses where they live either.
asiangrrlMN
A Dawg’s gotta do what a Dawg’s gotta do. Which is why it’s up to the more progressive liberals in the Senate to discipline the Dawgs, ’cause lord knows, Reid won’t do it.
harlana pepper
@Danton: Wow, you pretty much hit the nail on the head, there
kay
House members who represent rural districts say they don’t get as big a chunk of the per capita Medicare pie because their constituents don’t have access to specialists, and specialized care, so don’t use it.
An example: if you’re relying on one of 14 cardiologists in Indianapolis for cardiac care, your region is being reimbursed at a higher rate than a rural region, where they’re getting the same cardiac care from one of 4 family practice or general practitioners. Rural members say they should be able to pay their non-specialists extra for 1. doing the work of a specialist and 2. agreeing to practice in a rural area.
They don’t want to cede Congressional control of doling out Medicare, because they say their regions as a whole will suffer if we go to outcome-based payments on Medicare, and that’s what the House bill does. It takes control from the House and gives it to a panel of experts. Out of the political realm.
They’re screwed, though, the Blue Dogs, because the Senate finance bill does the same thing. So, they lost. We’re going to end up taking away Congressional authority to dole out or influence Medicare reinbursement rates anyway, as far as I can tell.
Violet
@Ed in NJ:
Agreed. There are so many ways to tie healthcare to overall economic security, economic growth, etc. But they’ve done none of that. As far as I can tell, the health care debate is all about socialized medicine, which the average American thinks is bad because it means long lines, years-long waits for treatment, and euthanasia. At least that’s what I’d think if I just listened to the networks and cable news.
The Obama administration has done a horrible job of framing the discussion to ways that will help accomplish their goal – and help people have the health coverage they need.
Leelee for Obama
The low-information constituent is the the death-knell of participatory democracy. If the Blue Dawgs spent more time informing and less time groveling, they’d have their people understanding the the fat cats are screwing them dry, and the Government is supposed to prevent that. It could be their groveling is not so much to their constituents but to the BIG Money Industries that stand to lose their ash-cans. What are your thoughts, Hobson?
media browski
“rural areas where poverty is generally deeper and there are far more uninsured”
Where the women are barefoot, the men are brewing meth, and the children are uneducated . . .
Anyway, growing up in a small town in Indiana one learns that the poorest are also the most likely to vote against their own interests. I suspect that there is a sincere belief that somewhere, out there, there are non-whites living high on the gov’t hog, that they (the Hoosiers) are actually upper middle class, and that anything the Kenyan suggests is covered in the Bible under Revelations: Rambo’s Return.
media browski
Since the edit function is FUBAR, I’d like to edit my last statement to say:
Where the women are barefoot, the men are brewing meth, and the children are STICKY and uneducated . . .
Morbo
@Just Some Fuckhead: I’m a little surpised that Stupak isn’t included. I guess he’s not an official membr of the club. Just like he isn’t an official member of C-Street (just lives there).
flukebucket
Every TV in a public place is tuned to Fox.
Yep. And there is usually a big sign next to the television that has written in big black magic marker “DO NOT CHANGE THIS STATION! THANK YOU!”
ericvsthem
Even if the health care “debate” wasn’t primarily about scoring political points against Obama, political grandstanding, and appeasing the insurance lobby, Conservadems and Republicans would still be ideological handcuffed to their quasi-religious beliefs in the infallibility of the free market and American Exceptionalism. There is no reason to try to cut deals with these people.
tess
NPR this morning was talking about health care reform in Bristol, VA, where Obama is going to hold a town hall. One of the people they talked to is out of work, his kids are on Medicaid, but he doesn’t want health reform because he thinks the result will be that “minorities” will get better care than “the whites.”
It seems like Teh Crazy is much more overtly about race now than it was when Obama was elected. I’m more worried now than when he was campaigning.
(on the topic of campaigning, we’re currently watching Simon Schama’s “The American Future: A History” and it includes some of Obama’s speeches at their most charismatic. Even knowing how it turns out when talks about “American values,” you can’t help but be caught up in the energy and hope and confidence. Why can’t he give similar speeches about health care??? It’s already called ObamaCare and the Obama Health Plan even on NPR.)
canuckistani
They’ve been told since birth that Soc-ialism is the worst thing that ever happened to the human race. You can’t undo that level of indoctrination in a few weeks.
srv
@Danton:
That might not have been a compliment.
Napoleon
John has it exactly right which is why the leadership in both houses is nuts if they do not force the conservative Democrats to vote on the most progressive bill they can reasonably expect to pass. When push comes to shove it will be political suicide for the blue dogs and their senate counterparts to vote against the bill.
Zifnab
@MikeN: Rural voters just don’t know what they’re missing. How many farmers even have health insurance? If you’re a hundred miles from the nearest ER, why even worry about being covered?
These people don’t understand the scope of the problem. They don’t see literally thousands of people laid off at once – at least not until it’s too late for them to change their votes. They can’t comprehend someone making a billion dollar salary as an insurance exec. They don’t understand what it means for premiums to rise 15% a year for half a decade. They just aren’t in the loop. Obama is moving on issues that are totally beyond them.
So it’s easy to scare the crap out of them.
Punchy
Yes, but if “those faggots” get to have health care cuz of this, them rural folx dont wannit.
After all, if you can gum your food, you can probably swallow it.
Zandar
@tess:
It’s absolutely about race and power now. And the GOP has discovered being the White Defense Party has a lot of play in Peoria.
Aaron
@ericvsthem:
Great point. I think there is something to be said for the religious nature of free-market fundamentalism to be found in many locations around the country. People start from the position that everything the free-market does is perfect, then just stuff facts in that adhere to this idea, while excluding those that don’t.
These are the same people, by the way, who love the post office and the military but think that the government sucks at everything. In short, their irrational faith in the free-market, despite the overwhelming evidence of its shortcomings, makes dealing with them sort of like talking to members of a cult.
jwb
@tess
“Obama health plan” I can understand, because it does seem a shorthand name for the general process he’s spearheading right now, but “ObamaCare”—this by the network that refuses to call torture “torture” because it would be taking sides? /eyeroll
Meg
It seems we have a problem of translating public opinion into votes. The American have forgotten how to protest.
We need a non-partisan nation-wide (simultaneously across the country) mass rally to have our voice heard.
It is very easy to ignore people protest on the blogs. But it is hard when tens of millions of them are taking to the streets.
PeakVT
If you’re a hundred miles from the nearest ER, why even worry about being covered?
Because doctors (or nurse practitioners) can make house calls and engage in preventative care?
ironranger
@media browski:
I noticed that R’s in my area look at the upper middle class & wealthier & are convinced the R party is going to get them there too, eventually. Before the election, a friend was arguing with an R neighbor that was very much against Obama’s tax plans. The friend said to the R (who probably doesn’t make more than $60 or so thou a year) that he didn’t have to worry about it unless he made more than $250 thou. The R said, “But I might some day”. That’s a pretty common R view around here. Such faith.
inkadu
If rural areas are so invested in the free market fundamentals to the detriment of health care, maybe instead of a single healthcare bill we should pass the Omnibus Bill for Healthcare Reform and Agricultural Welfare.
I’m tired of those wiggers driving around with their four children stuffed into the back of a brand new Ford F-150 and listening to their John Mellencamp records. You call that music? If they can’t even have the decency to appreciate Rufus Wainwright, I don’t consider them “real Americans.” Maybe they should all go back to Ireland and plant their 50-cent-a-bag potatoes there.
[Sarcasm–>Direct: Rural areas are the biggest welfare queendoms in the United States.]
inkadu
@Zifnab: If you’re a hundred miles from the nearest ER, why even worry about being covered?
Because people drive a hundred miles to buy Froot Loops out there. Everything is far, and people are used to it.
Everything but milk, of course; that’s only a few yards away.
Goat cheese, also.
Trollhattan
The Republicans—beginning with Reagan (maybe even Nixon) and perfected by the Rove edition—have been getting po’ white folk to vote for them counter to their self-interest. That’s the main reason, I think, they basically represent the old Confederacy today.
I understand why country club Republicans vote they way they do–it’s simple arithmetic–but that poor and blue-collar folks do is a product of the potitics of fear and lies. The blue dogs seem to have absorbed this lesson, to everybody’s peril.
Woodrowfan
is there an online list of where each representative is on health care?? I’m going to nag the &*#^ out of mine, but it’d help me to know if I’m trying to get him to move more towards Public Option or if I need to keep him there.
satby
I’m a Chicagoan transplanted to a very rural part of Michigan. They’re self described rednecks here. But even old timey racism isn’t going to play like it used to, and they still refer to African-Americans as “colored” out here. They’ve been fed a lot of misinformation, but they’ve also been screwed by the system and it makes them skeptical of everything. They know health care has to be reformed, they have to hold fundraising potlucks to help their neighbors pay their medical bills.
Woodrowfan
that’s what I wondered. is there any other country in the world where people try to pay for necessary medical treatment by setting out begging jars in local restaurants and stores??
inkadu
@Woodrowfan: Here’s a list of reps & senators which have signed on for good healthcare reform (including the statement of principles they agree with):
http://blog.healthcareforamericanow.org/congressional-support-for-health-care-for-america-now/
scarshapedstar
They like it that way. They’re aristocratic assholes.
Maus
It’s always easier to gamble with other peoples’ money and lives.
Woodrowfan
thanks Inkadu. I’ve emailed both Senators, my rep and the White House….
HumboldtBlue
Jesus Christ walking barefoot in a crick. When is the last time any of you even drove through a rural area? I’m city-born and city-bred but have lived in a “rural” area for the past 6 years, and when I mean “rural”, I mean far enough away that the closest major city (San Fran) is 250 miles away.
Rural (HumCo style) folks aren’t ignorant banjo-strumming ingrates who brew moonshine in between cross-burnings and tractor races. Really, I’m cereal.
We have phones, and indoor plumbing and ‘lectricity and even the intertrons, really, we do.
My Rep, (Thompson, California 1) was considered a Blue Dog but has become much more progressive as the reality of what’s happening to both the federal and state financial systems sinks in.
My Senator, on the other hand, hails from the so-called liberal bastion of San Francisco and is not only owned by big telecoms (Feinstein helped along Bush’s illegal wiretap program) but also by the fact that she’s a war-profiteering, corporate-backing classless bitch who doesn’t believe anyone needs anything that isn’t a direct gift from a “K” Street lobbyist.
Don’t make the mistake of conflating income with wealth, particularly when it comes to rural areas such as the one I live in. You can’t put a dollar figure on the joy of living in a rural area like HumCo, and believe it or not, we’re more liberal than not (an oddity to be sure, we aint Alabama), but that liberalism is peppered with a healthy dose of leave-me-the-fuck-alone and stay off my land libertarianism. We need health care reform badly, and all the scare tactics from the likes of Beck and Limbaugh are not going to change that reality.
Elie
There is a lot of complexity here.
Rural areas have fewer providers that have typically been at least somewhat supported by Federal policies for Medicare and rural health. It is also true that more than a few rural areas have monopoly providers (mostly hospitals) that may impact costs and suppress the development of other competitors.
The blue dogs are probably heavily supported by these provider groups and monopoly insurers. I don’t see them as interested in helping their populations as much as covering their backsides with appropriate level of financial backing.
The grass roots have to start sending these guys some real information about primary challenges and ballot box consequences.
HumboldtBlue
Yeah, what Elie said.
Woodrowfan
When is the last time any of you even drove through a rural area?
heck, I tend to lock my door, avoid eye contact with the locals, and speed through as fast as I can! (kidding)
Well, it depends on the area. Some rural areas I’ve stayed in have been pretty nice, but as few others have been closer to the sterotype.
Will
To put this delicately: their constituents are a bunch of complete morons.
Woodrowfan
To put this delicately: their constituents are a bunch of complete morons.
It’s GIGO (Garbage-in, Garbage-out). Their main sources of information are..
– small local papers, which almost always have a RW bent
– TV news, which is either MSM fluff or Faux
– local radio, which is probably nationally syndicated Rush or his clones, or local RW “Christian” talk radio. Unless you’re near a big city or a decent college town you won’t even get NPR or PBS news.
– local books stores, which, unless it’s a college town, are probably a small chain store at a mall or, even worse, the books at Walmart, which means the latest trashy best sellers, bodice-rippers, People and Newsweek, and the latest crap from a RW publisher. Unless it’s a “Christian” bookstore, then it’s even worse.
that doesn’t leave much else… The Public Library is probably OK, with dedicated librarians that’d love to have more customers, but libraries are for kids doing homework for most folks…
alex
What’s stranger to me than the blue dogs screwing over their constituents is that the blue dogs are going to screw over themselves. If the blue dogs screw up health care reform, they’ll hurt Obama’s popularity and sink the overall popularity of the Democratic brand. Blue dogs come from relatively Republican-friendly districts, pretty much by definition, so it’s in their home districts that a weighing down of the the Dem brand is going to have the most electoral impact.
Here’s the thing these guys don’t understand- if health care reform succeeds, the Republicans will have less control of the narrative. If it fails, and becomes crappy and hobbled and doesn’t make anybody happy, then the media narrative becomes “Obama overreached, Obama is unable to make good on promises, Democrats are socialists, Democrats can’t do anything right”.
Comrade Mary
The Blue Dogs got a small concession and the public option is back — for now.
Johnny B. Guud
The Democrats became the majority party not because they moved towards the left, but because these moderate Democrats were elected in conservative districts. Yes, a lot were from rural areas and some were pro-gun, even pro-life. Unfortunately, the party leaders ran around like they were 100% progressives all in line with a left-leaning agenda, which is obviously not the case.
I’d be careful if I was the leadership. Maxine Waters was running diarreah of the mouth again this week saying the Blue Dogs should be primaried, and fast. Democrats spent the early part of this year decrying the lack of inclusion in the GOP during the stimulus battle when Sens. Snowe, Specter and Collins bailed on them, accusing them of holding on to “ideological purity” in the name of governance.
Waters and the rest of the idiots could fall into the same trap if they don’t pipe down. The majority is not as solid as one would think.
inkadu
@Woodrowfan: When I was visiting a friend in small-town Missouri, I was horrified to discover that The Economist is not stocked at all grocery stores.
I also discovered during the Fourth of July parade there that the Statue of Liberty carries the Holy Bible.
You learn a lot of things when you travel.
Calouste
@Woodrowfan:
Probably, but not in what is generally considered the developed world.
Elie
What has become apparent to me in the last few years, is that the demographic group that holds this country prisoner to the plantation sociology and psychology that progressives are fighting are white people, age 35 – and up with incomes =/< $30,000/year and education =/< high school diploma.
White, educated, rich capitalists have exploited this group’s fears, phobias and insecurities and the result has been to keep this country behind in every meaningful health care and social statistic from teen pregnancy, maternal death, infant mortality, drug use, death by gunshot to children, and last but not least, functional literacy.
In summary, y’all middle class, educated white people need to liberate your brethren so that we can work to get the big hairy white foot off of all our necks!
Wile E. Quixote
@General Winfield Stuck
It is not an unfounded concern, as rurla folks get screwed regularly by the system concerned more with high population centers.
Fuck that, rural folk are fucking those of us in high population centers in the ass. Firstly we have the US Senate, which gives rural shitholes like Wyoming and the Dakotas as much representation as California, New York and Florida. Then if you start looking at the breakdown of where government spending goes you find that rural areas consume more in government funding than they pay in taxes. This isn’t just the case at the federal level either. In Washington state King County, the urban and liberal population center is the economic engine that drives the state. The taxes paid in King County are what keeps all of the useless rural counties like Ferry, Stevens, Douglas, Grant, Chelan, etc in business, which is why for every dollar we pay in gasoline taxes in King County we get 83 cents worth of road spending.
Rural voters are the worst kind of useless, selfish assholes. I’d love to see how well these WATBs would do if the government packed up and left them alone, which means no more Medicare or Medicaid, no more farm subsidies, no more rural electrification, no more telecommunication subsidies, no more grazing your cattle on government land, nothing, nada, zip, zilch. Someone needs to explain to these sons of the soil that they’re a bunch of welfare queens, and without the government they’d be dead and if that doesn’t work then those of us who live in urban areas need to start keeping our money so we can let the stupid bastards die.
inkadu
@Elie: And the worst thing about this demographic is that there aren’t even that many of them! They are able to hold us hostage because of the senate system.
The senate system is flat out undemocratic. It might have made sense in 1779, when states were more distinct, but now state lines don’t matter so much as regional lines based on culture and economics. And if your region happens to fall inside of two or three heavily populated states? Tough shit. The region that happens to have more states in it (and maybe even less acreage), and less people, will have more of a say.
General Winfield Stuck
@Wile E. Quixote:
I grew up rural so go fuck your city smart ass Mr. Wily E Prick.
inkadu
@General Winfield Stuck: I grew up rural so go fuck your city smart ass Mr. Wily E Prick.
You grew up rural. And then you had the sense to get out.
General Winfield Stuck
Not really, just out of southern rural. I live in southwest rural now in a very liberal place. What is it with country people hatred here? Not all are stupid hicks, any more than all city people are insufferable arrogant jackasses.
Will
@General Winfield Stuck:
I don’t hate country people, though I did grow up around a lot of them (Western KY farm community). These are generally people with very strong convictions, and very little ability or interest in explaining or defending them. They just have them. It’s frustrating when those convictions are based on 95% lies and towering ignorance.
General Winfield Stuck
I don’t disagree with this. But they have some other good qualities that are lacking in metro areas.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Plenty of rural areas out there are lefty as Hell. Cf. Vermont, Bernie Sanders.
Elie
Wile @ 73 —
I understand your frustration – truly. I live in semi rural Whatcom County in WA state, having moved from big cities out East and have experienced the frustration of promoting progressive policy that would benefit rural areas but get resisted from the same rural residents who would benefit because of their cultural ideas that make the identification of either being an outsider vs “homie” as more important than any other benefit to them…
That said, it does no good to despise the poor and low income rural folks. The harder — much harder but important question is WHAT do we Do to wake them up? How do we get through the fear, the suspicion, the ethnic identity thing to get them in touch with their own needs? I know that sounds very social workee — but its a core question to all who want to actually change things in the most meaningful way — at the grass roots.
Nellcote
@HumboldtBlue:
>My Rep, (Thompson, California 1) was considered a Blue Dog but has become much more progressive as the reality of what’s happening to both the federal and state financial systems sinks in.
He’s my rep. and I’ve noticed that too. I always look for his name on the various blue dog shit lists and am pleasantly surprised not to see him there. Amen to the rest of your post as well.
This is probably one of the most bigoted threads I’ve ever read on BJ. Sad really.
inkadu
@General Winfield Stuck: I think the hate comes out because the rural states are holding up health reform, and have held up all manner of progressive policies for years, due to their disproportionate power in the Senate.
They also have a disproportionate amount of deference. They are popularly assumed to be “the real America,” when their primary industry is agriculture. Everyone has their part to play, but the strength of any country is in its cities.
The rhetoric from rural areas is hypocritical. They complain about government largess while being net beneficiaries of government programs. And, heck, all the innovative farming techniques and equipment come out of cities.
And then I think there’s a lot of confusion about what is the South and what is “rural,” so that drives even more resentment. A lot of people associate religious fundamentalism and racism with rural areas, which, strictly speaking, isn’t probably very accurate.
I know there are smart liberal rural types out there — I met a farmer from Kansas at a Wellesley graduation who wouldn’t shut up about Wallace Stegner — I just think they’re well in the minority.
alex
“What has become apparent to me in the last few years, is that the demographic group that holds this country prisoner to the plantation sociology and psychology that progressives are fighting are white people, age 35 – and up with incomes =/< $30,000/year and education =/< high school diploma.”
Not really. In terms of party ID, look at this: http://people-press.org/commentary/?analysisid=95
Poorer people vote more Democratic. Up to college, the less educated vote more for Democrats. I know non-white voters skew this, but not that much. I know Dem ID isn’t a perfect proxy for progressivism, but it’s pretty good. In terms of age, I think you’re correct. Older white people is prime Republican territory, but poorer and less well educated isn’t.
In general, rural people are more “conservative” than urban people, true. But demonizing rural people, doesn’t help to understand why.
inkadu
@Elie: That said, it does no good to despise the poor and low income rural folks. The harder—much harder but important question is WHAT do we Do to wake them up?
Traditionally, you don’t wake them up. You get them to hate the right group. During the depression era, they hated big business fat cats and big city bankers. Now they hate big city liberals.
It will always be a culture war. Its just that enemies that will change.
Danton
Our plumber is a country guy. He wasn’t the only person who put a “Rednecks for Obama” bumper sticker on his pick-up truck.
Crockpot
Nellcote:
There will almost always be a group people feel free to stereotype, who that group is, seems to change depending on where you are.
If you live in a rural area or the south, or even more fun the rural south, you see a lot of bigoted threads towards you here at BJ.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Nellcote:
Agreed. Most of this thread reads like it was written by Hillary’s campaign advisers circa spring-summer 2008. Red states don’t count!
Oh, and @Wile E. Quixote: go fuck yourself with a cactus, kthnx. You sound like a mirror universe version of some spittle-caked Red State hack decrying the evils of urban liberals.
inkadu
I think “a majority of” is assumed when criticizing any demographic, especially in political discussions. Whingeing “they’re not all like that,” is pointless. If you want add value, show that the criticism is wrong regarding the majority.
Seriously. I have to go through this every time PZ Myers posts about creationist school boards in Texas.
General Winfield Stuck
@Nellcote:
What you say.
Elie
Alex @ #85 —
“In general, rural people are more “conservative” than urban people, true. But demonizing rural people, doesn’t help to understand why.”
If you note my later comment, I frankly do NOT believe in demonizing any people that are part of this country. I totally do not want to give that impression and apologize if that was what my comment conveyed. I wanted instead to convey that poor whites, blacks and many of the rest of us are under the foot of some pretty ruthless folks and we have to figure out how to work that out — to get liberated..
We have to figure out how to bring ALL the people along — that is how to make our government work for everyone or as many as we can.
SeanH
If you compare that Blue Dog district map linked earlier to a persistent poverty map you’ll see the answer is “yes, provided the Blue Dog’s from the south”.
Rural poverty is a purely southern phenomenon. The only red spots on that poverty map outside of the bible belt are Indian reservations.
Also, what tripletee said.
mike in denmark
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