I may not be on that debate stage tonight, but our campaign shaped perceptions of what is possible. Never forget that. pic.twitter.com/nouXHfwQ92
— Kamala Harris (@KamalaHarris) December 19, 2019
2020 DEMOCRATS ON IMPEACHMENT
Biden: It’s a constitutional necessity
Sanders: Trump wants to cut Social Security
Warren: Corruption, people. Corruption
Klobuchar: This is a global Watergate
Buttigieg: Reject the cynicism
Steyer: I was first
Yang: The media is bad— Sahil Kapur (@sahilkapur) December 20, 2019
I’m only following it second-hand — on the Guardian liveblog, and Twitter. So far, doesn’t seem to be any BREAKING NEWS moments. Your opinions?
lamh36
Wait…is this EXACTLY what Amy K said?
Cause if so…DAMN Amy! I see why Pete might need a drink of water.
Baud
It’s almost over. AK won easily. I think Biden keeps his lead. He had a good night. Bernie should drop to fourth or fifth, but won’t. Warren was ok, but she needed to be better to get ahead of Bernie again.
WaterGirl
I’ll say it again. Am I the only person concerned about how red Bernie’s face and hands are? I’m afraid he’s going to have a heart attack on stage or stroke out.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: I think we’re all disappointed that Baud! wasn’t on the stage.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: Thinking he may have another heart attack and being concerned are not synonymous.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I missed about half of it, but from what I saw I would agree with you. Plus Buttigieg did poorly.
lamh36
As somone not watching live and just follwoing along, here in the candidate listed by who seemed the most impressive from the outside looking in.
1)Amy K. – Seems she brought her A game the way she kept her foot on Pete’s neck, but never seeming rude or obnoxioius was a thing of beauty.
2)Biden – He had some solid answers, and he’s “put your hand down” to Bernie is enough for him to be my #2…lol
3)Warren – I’m not sure how well her exchange with Pete was to others, but I found it a kinda even exchange. But I appreciated Warren willingness to bring the heat to Pete, but Amy K’s haymkers landed for forcibly and more often
4) Yang, Buttgeig, Sanders, Stoyer – in order who annoyed me the least to who annoyed me the most.
O. Felix Culpa
Amy shone tonight. She was authoritative and on point. She got the boys to stop squabbling. Her only (slight) misstep was apologizing in her response to the stupid closing question.
Biden was ok. Didn’t hurt himself. Yang can be winsome at times. Pete was a prick. Liz seemed frazzled. I hope she regains some of the lightness and joy she communicated earlier on in the campaign.
Ms. O commented that it was helpful to have fewer people on the stage. I agree.
ETA: Bernie was Bernie. ‘Nuff said.
Baud
@Gin & Tonic: The backdrop would have triggered my vertigo.
WaterGirl
Oh my god, I just caught up on the DVR. now I understand what you were saying about the stupid question at the end. Oh. my. god.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: He was getting in fights with everybody, it seemed.
Jeffro
Hmm looks like it’ll be Biden continuing to lead while Warren and Sanders duke it out for this left-leaning wing I keep hearing about, and Buttigieg & Klobuchar wait for Biden to falter.
The DNC needs a mechanism to ‘call the question’, have a national primary now, and get it over with. Let’s start pounding on the GOP!
Kent
I just don’t get Bernie I guess. He’s WAY too much like the old guys you find holding down barstools in the old liberal blue collar parts of Seattle.
Klobuchar is moving into my top tier replacing Harris.
lamh36
@lamh36:
I mean DAMN AMY!
Baud
@O. Felix Culpa: Fewer people was nice. I just wish Kamala could have been up there instead of someone like Steyer.
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud: I do too. I missed her.
Kent
@Jeffro:
Disagree. These candidates are all getting better as a result of this process. We can walk and chew gum.
Betty Cracker
My take is that Klobuchar won, hands down. Warren did okay when she needed to be spectacular. Biden plodded along as usual. Buttigieg continues to alienate me, and I started off liking him! Steyer needs to go away. Yang is refreshing, but he should run for Congress or something. Bernie is still giving his 2016 stump speech.
Barbara
@Baud: Or Cory Booker.
Kent
@lamh36: Oh, for fuck’s sake. I spent a year in college out there and have family in that area. Only thing that makes South Bend remotely blue is its diversity. The white suburbs around South Bend and the rest of Northern Indiana is right wing fundie land.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Amy Klobuchar on MSNBC goes out of her way, just a sidestep, to take a swing at Buttigieg. I guess she thinks given their poll positions, taking him down is the way to move up? Or maybe she got the same sexist vibe people are mentioning here and on twitter
ETA: Reporter offers her a chance to take a swing at Biden and she says, “I’m here to talk about my campaign…” and goes back to Buttigieg!
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I turned off the TV. What did she say?
Kent
Harris actually qualified for this debate. Too bad her campaign ran out of gas too soon. This might have been her chance.
Betty Cracker
Been reading for a couple of weeks that Klobuchar is slowly rising in the Iowa polls. There’s an outside chance she could peak at the right time. I hope so because otherwise, I’m afraid we’ll get stuck with Biden.
lamh36
However I may feel about Biden as a candidate, I still like and respect him. This big hunchback smoking eyes of lie BISH Sarah Huckabee is as ugly on the inside as she is on the outside. Her internal ugliness bleeds over
https://twitter.com/SarahHuckabee/status/1207863935426322432
NotMax
Know I’m in a minority here on this but came away unimpressed with Klobuchar, who most of the time* (to me) sounded as if she was reciting platitudes from a series of fortune cookies.
*That is, the times when she was speaking to the audience and not to the other candidates.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: he asked a general question about the debate and she went right to “Let’s look at Medicare for all, I’ve been consistent. When Mayor Buttigieg was running for DNC chair, he was all in for M4A, now he’s for the public option I’ve always been for…” that’s the gist, not a transcript
Kent
I think she is hugely pissed at the white male privilege he represents. She’s made comments to that effect previously.
jk
Biden sucks. He supported the Iraq war, supported the Crime Bill, treated Anita Hill like dirt, always favored banks and credit card companies over consumers, and has no goddamn motherfucking gravitas. He’s a clueless, out of touch buffoon.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks.
Baud
@NotMax: They like their sayings in the Midwest.
O. Felix Culpa
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I don’t think it was entirely coinkydink that the only people Pete went after were female. I also think his initial attack dog response to Warren’s rather anodyne, general fundraising remark was either a curiously defensive response or possibly planned. (Liz’s targeted comment about wine caves came later.)
BR
I’m happy to read that Klobuchar claimed the center lane — of the choices I think she’s been the best in that lane (if there is such a thing as a lane here). I do have some concern that the reports of her punching down (at her staff) are going to be a problem — I have heard personal anecdotes regarding the way she runs her office that confirm the media stories. But we’ll see…
sab
@WaterGirl: Having my own heart condition, which my spouse constantly and annoyingly frets over, I agree. If I die, only my spouse and possibly stepkids will care. If Bernie dies, we are all ducked.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I actually choke on them because they seem over rehearsed and disingenuous.
edit: I live in the midwest.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: I got in just in time to watch Klobuchar clean the floor with Sanders, followed by Biden laughing at Sanders trying to defend himself. Then that hack Judy Woodruf asked a stupid final question and I changed the channel before I did something everyone would regret.
WaterGirl
@sab: First, I’m sorry to hear about your heart condition.
That said, I don’t want to see anyone keel over and die, but how are we fucked if Bernie does?
Barbara
@Adam L Silverman: Especially your tv!
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: And Booker and Castro.
PJ
@Kent: Harris was only slightly behind Biden in fundraising when she dropped out. Clearly she had a high burn rate, and the reported infighting and lack of direction in her campaign may have contributed to that. Hopefully she’s learned some things for the next go round (should the Republic survive).
WaterGirl
@sab: Possibly stepkids? I imagine it’s probably more likely than that!
sab
@Barbara: Booker is tight with Betsy deVos. He should have chosen better friends. I am a big supporter of public schools, and he has spent his career undermining them.
O. Felix Culpa
TBH, so am I. He may be a good national candidate someday, but he needs more experience. No woman and no POC individual with his credentials (or lack thereof) would be catapulted to a top-tier candidate just like that. Not no way, not no how.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker:
You’ve discovered Lis Smith’s superpower.
PsiFighter37
Didn’t watch it, don’t care for now. Sounds like Mayor Pete made a really stupid comment about winning 80% of the vote in Indiana and Amy K stomped on his ass. Good. I hope that lightweight gets his comeuppance. I would be more than happy to have Klobuchar replace him in the top 4.
Did Bernie stroke out or hit himself with his waving hands yet? I hate that guy.
WaterGirl
I think Biden was 10x better tonight than he has been in any of the other debates.
Kent
@PJ: Yes, stop with the nepotism. Hard to know from the media reports how much was real and how much was made up. But that stood out.
NotMax
@Baud
Will say that have long found her lacking in what I would describe as authenticity and nothing tonight has altered that impression. Comes across like a pod person politician; all the pieces are there but they don’t quite fit together.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: I’m just here for the ratio!
via GIPHY
Betty Cracker
@lamh36: Disgusting. Embedding the tweet you linked below for those who don’t want to get outta the boat:
What a gross, classless husk. The truly astonishing thing is she’s not even the worst of her parents’ children, given the dog-murdering psycho brother.
sab
@WaterGirl: Only if he is the candidate.
Kent
@sab:
Teachers are the shock troops for the Dem party in much of the country. I’m a teacher too and being a pro-charter anti-public school douche is not going to win much loyalty with that crowd. A lot of teachers are pretty clueless as I know well. I sit through many meetings with them. But the teachers who are out knocking on doors and doing union work most certainly are not.
tobie
In other news, it looks like the Bill Barr’s Inquisition into Deep State efforts to take Trump down has now decided to go after John Brennan.
PsiFighter37
@PJ: Harris also needs to figure out a message and stick with it. If there’s one thing that Biden, Warren, and Bernie have done well, they have been consistent. Mayor Pete’s leaned to the right since he started getting big bucks, but Harris was perceived to be all over the map. Her CA-based consultants had no idea how to run a national campaign. I’d be happy if she stayed as CA’s (soon to be) senior senator or was AG under whomever takes down Trump. Or heck, why not SCOTUS? But not president. I’m not convinced she’s got what it takes to win the top job.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: I really liked and respected Amy K. in 2007 when she came out early for Barack Obama. Same with Claire McCaskill. (sp?) But I haven’t liked her at all in these debates and I find her to be far too conservative.
That said, she did well tonight.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker:
I’m guessing the brothers got beat and Sarah learned to be Daddy’s mini-me.
Barbara
He is definitely not my first choice but I would rather see him than Steyer or Yang or Buttigieg.
lamh36
@lamh36:
@JoeBiden
FollowingFollowing @JoeBiden
More
Joe Biden Retweeted Sarah Huckabee Sanders
I’ve worked my whole life to overcome a stutter. And it’s my great honor to mentor kids who have experienced the same. It’s called empathy. Look it up.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: It was nice of her to provide this week’s lotto numbers.
mad citizen
Simple fix. If Any K becomes the frontrunner, just promise to hire the Obamas as kindness consultants. Until then, I’m totally fine with her knocking out mayor pete. He actually lost by 27 points for state treasurer in 2010, to the execrable Richard Mourdock. I may have voted for him, though may well have not voted at all that year, especially if there wasn’t a Senate race on the ballot.
NotMax
One thing noticed – Steyer has remarkably small hands.
;)
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36: My god, she is horrible.
O. Felix Culpa
@lamh36: Good for him. The woman has no class. Her tweet reminds me of 45 mocking the disabled reporter. Evil fruit, both of them.
WaterGirl
@sab: Yes, we are all screwed then.
Adam L Silverman
@jk: Now tell us what you really think about him. Don’t hold back. This is a safe space…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m watching the recap, just saw Bernie talking about his great respect for Barack Obama. Like when you spent 2012 calling for a primary challenge, and 2017 calling the Democratic Party a fayl-yuh.
PJ
@PsiFighter37: yeah, Harris didn’t have a clear message re why anyone should vote for her as opposed to the 20 odd other people in the race. Everyone who was on the stage tonight had a clear message about who they were (even if it was BS) and what you could expect from them.
Adam L Silverman
@Barbara: I wouldn’t hurt the TV. I’m more likely to start an insurgency in some small failed or failing state. Like Mississippi.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: I am not sure but I don’t think that jk thinks Biden would be a good choice.
lamh36
@Adam L Silverman:
@Betty Cracker:
She tweeted a follow tweet to try to cover for that one, but folks rightly draggin her cause we know exactly what the meant by it…
Ugly soul bish
Yarrow
@lamh36: Biden’s new social media director is a very good hire.
NotMax
Also noticed – Biden tilting his head while cupping an ear to hear the questions not a good look.
Adam L Silverman
@O. Felix Culpa: And the evidence for that is there is an African American mayor from Florida who is running for the Democratic nomination. His city is has about 20,000 more people than South Bend does. It is diverse and in the ever electorally important Broward County, which along with Miami-Dade and Palm Beach Counties are highly coveted electoral ground in Florida, where statewide elections are often settled by 1 to 2 percent of the vote.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Yarrow: yup, and good ad makers, too. Biden hires good people. Ron Klain would be Biden’s eminence grise (or something like it), and he seems to be universally respected and hyper-competent. Now if we can convince him to make Ed Rendell (and people like him) ambassador to Ireland (or things like that) and not put him, or them, in the cabinet
sab
@WaterGirl: I am not sorry about my heart condition. My dad is 95 with dementia in a nursing home, having lost his wife of 60 years a few years ago.
Personally, I would much rather die of a heart condistion than live as he does. But he does seem to be happy, although he wants more car rides, which I am emotionally unable to give him. I am burned out.
Jeffro
@Kent:
It was an observation, not a recommendation or endorsement or anything.
I think we can observe and, um, chew gum. Or something.
lamh36
@lamh36: I see she deleted the tweet after posting her clean up tweet.
But I thought you didn’t mean anything by that tweet Sara…bish..
ugh…sorry, but that tweet pissed me off
tobie
@Adam L Silverman: Wayne Messam dropped out. So unreported was his campaign that his exit was scarcely remarked.
Yarrow
@lamh36: She deleted it? What a coward.
O. Felix Culpa
@Adam L Silverman: And further evidence for that is that I’ve never heard of him. :)
Jeffro
@Yarrow: he/they have been punching back quite nicely!
It’s exciting, watching Democratic candidates (or just Dem officials in general) realize they don’t have to just sit there and take it from the GOP.
Kent
@Jeffro: It goes both ways. The fact that we have 10+ candidates, many of them strong makes it difficult for the GOP sewage machine start up and start spraying their filth everywhere. Trump doesn’t know who to start making fun of yet. And it keeps the focus on Democratic issues rather than endless pro/con Trump which is what this election is eventually going to descend into.
Whoever the candidate is will get plenty of momentum coming out of the summer and fall. There’s no rush to settle on a nominee just yet. Politics goes at the speed of light. These 2019 debates are going to be old forgotten history in 6 months.
lamh36
Now she trying to play clean up
Too late…witch
NotMax
Gotta give Gabbard her due. Tonight she was not present, a marked improvement over yesterday.
//
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
I would far prefer Biden to Klobuchar.
If we’re interested in winning this thing, that is.
dmsilev
@lamh36: And what was the “point” she was trying to make?
lamh36
@Yarrow: yeah she deleted it.
But screen caps are forever… https://twitter.com/maxwelltani/status/1207864938871562241
And news twitter is retweeting about it anyway
Ohio Mom
Sab @ 75: From the bits and pieces of your family life I’ve picked up (autistic grandchild, high-need stepdaughter, dad with dementia), of course you are burned-out, who wouldn’t be! Sending you good thoughts because that’s all I can do, and don’t stress about not playing chauffeur.
Jeffro
@Kent: Agreed on all points.
Whether trumpov is the GOP’s nominee or not in 2020, I think Dems are fired up enough to win with almost anyone on that stage tonight and 3-4 others who weren’t.
Like, seriously, I would vote for any of them, easy. I would need to have a deep conversation with myself before/after voting for Steyer or Yang (won’t happen; no worries here) but still.
On another note: I wonder if The Turtle would settle for an impeachment trial that allows for tarring and feathering of trumpov instead of instant removal? I’d almost rather that the GOP ride this extremely lame horse for another full year and crash tremendously in 2020 than replace him and get a slight boost.
No, what am I saying? He needs to go.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s hard to tell from the comment.
Yarrow
@zhena gogolia: Me too.
mvr
@sab:
I get what it’s like being burned out from taking care of a parent. I can only send you good wishes in response. You do what you can and it doesn’t seem like enough. But you have to just pace yourself and make sure you are OK. It is hard.
zhena gogolia
I’m sorry to hear that Warren is fading. I’d prefer her to Klobuchar too.
Yarrow
@mvr: It is fucking exhausting, is what it is.
Kent
Can you imagine the fucking tongue licking the media would give Pence if he takes over? Turning over a new leaf, adults are back in charge, time to give him a chance and so forth? Fuckit. Make them ride the Trump elevator all the way to the bottom.
Adam L Silverman
@tobie: If a candidate drops out in the woods and no one is around to hear…
Yarrow
@zhena gogolia: Her campaign has been heading down for awhile now. She has an air of desperation about her that she didn’t have six months ago. I wonder what her internal polling is showing.
I really like Warren but was never a fan of her for president. I like her in the Senate, which I think is a better fit for her skill set. So I’m not too broken up she’s fading and we’ll still have her in the Senate so it’s not like she’s going anywhere.
zhena gogolia
@Yarrow:
BUT WHY ISN’T SANDERS FADING? Who can look at him next to Warren or Harris and say, “I like this red-faced, shouting old man who’s never accomplished anything in all his decades in the Senate”???????
Betty Cracker
@zhena gogolia: Everyone seems to think Biden is the electable candidate, so yours is the majority view. I think he’d be a disaster on multiple levels, which is why I hope like hell someone overtakes him because, yeah, we gotta win this thing.
Another Scott
@NotMax: I didn’t hear a lot of the debate, but I mostly agree with you. I did like her going after Pete for running statewide in Indiana and losing bigly, running for DNC chair and losing bigly, and now thinking that he should be running for President.
Her comments about “flyover country” and almost hectoring anyone who isn’t from the MidWest as somehow not being fully American is grating. She doesn’t need to do that and I wish she’d stop. If she doesn’t, I’m going to start wondering if there’s something wrong with her…
Cheers,
Scott.
frosty
Heh. ‘xactly!
sab
TomatoQueen
@dmsilev: That she’s an attention-seeking monster and misses the spotlight so much that even negative attention is still attention?
mrmoshpotato
@Kent: Van Jones (on Dense’s swearing in): Today was the day the Republican party stopped being a disgusting pile of shit!
Nope, Van! Nope!
Ohio Mom
Steeplejack (phone)
The “Recent Comments” list is stuck at 8:40 for me on the four most recent threads. Anybody else? (I have not read the comments yet.)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: Rose twitter is almost as much a cult as the MAGAts. I was scrolling through a thread of replies to a Chris Hayes tweet (no, I don’t know why but I did) and there were a number of replies accusing Hayes of being part of the “Bernie blackout”, an alleged MSM conspiracy to keep Bernie out of the news because if The People just heard Bernie then…
Hayes has Bernie on at least twice a month, and you can almost see the cartoon stars in his eyes while the old fool barks out his sanctimony.
O. Felix Culpa
@Another Scott: I’m with you on stopping the flyover country, cornfed Midwesterner shtick. That said, I think Amy made a strong case for herself tonight. I was not a big fan going into the debate, but now feel a lot better about her as a potential candidate.
mrmoshpotato
@Steeplejack (phone): Same for me. Shall we do the time warp again?
Yarrow
@zhena gogolia: I don’t know. I find him disgusting. I guess some of it may be because he came in second last time so has name recognition.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@mrmoshpotato: a jump to the left? a step to the right? Is that the Buttigieg campaign dance? Hey-yo!
I’ll see myself out.
TomatoQueen
OT: Merlin is next to me on the sofa, having his evening bath. He startles and zooms very easily still but is calming by degrees. There has been a LOT of lap time, increasingly on his initiative, and yesterday he allowed me to pick him up.
O. Felix Culpa
@Ohio Mom: My take on Klobuchar’s message is that she Gets Things Done. Not sexy perhaps, but not bad either. Her values and policies seem to be standard liberal.
rikyrah
@Adam L Silverman:
I even read an article about it…but, I still don’t understand why Baby Yoda is a meme??
Kent
Right. You don’t have to say it out loud. Gets old.
sab
@Ohio Mom: Thank you. Have followed your comments for years. You inspire me. Someday I hope to get south enough to actually meet you.
Another Scott
@Yarrow: I thought her answer to the question about special education was excellent. She has a passion about education and helping everyone and it comes through.
I don’t think she did badly tonight, myself.
I did think I heard some exasperation in her voice trying to get recognized to give that special education answer, but that’s on the moderators and not her.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@rikyrah: Largely it’s the cuteness. Of course that isn’t actually Yoda as a baby, but a baby of the same species of which Yoda is a member. And the baby isn’t actually a baby, he or she is about 50. But it’s the cuteness.
ETA: I don’t even have Disney+ and have never seen the show and will never seen the show, I’ve just gleaned all this from discussion about the show.
Yarrow
Yep.
Kent
@Yarrow: This.
Trump has not only made the punching down mockery acceptable. He’s made it popular. Bush, McCain, and Romney, vile as they all are, were of a different cloth entirely. They were all actual humans with some vestigial empathy. Trump is a narcissistic sociopath and he’s turned the entire GOP into his own image.
Betty Cracker
Here’s the wine cave referred to in the debate:
Cool how the chandelier is tree roots!
Another Scott
@O. Felix Culpa: My general impression of her tonight (and I admit that I didn’t hear a lot of her) was that she’s campaigning as if she’s running for Senate. Being President and Senator are very, very different jobs. Being able to reach across the aisle and compromise and even work with Bernie is great in the Senate, but that’s not what Presidents do. They appoint judges (and she did talk about what kinds of judges and justices she wants), they appoint heads of agencies, they set agendas.
I would like to hear her talk more about the kind of leader she would be, and less about how she knows how to get legislation through the Senate.
Someone above mentioned her punching down on her staff. I remember those stories very early on in her campaign. It’s worrying because I really don’t like people who punch down…
But all that said, it’s still very early. The lead is going to change and there will be surprises. And winning Iowa and New Hampshire often doesn’t mean all that much. We’ll see what happens.
Cheers,
Scott.
sab
@Yarrow: I am not doing the bulk of it. About fifteen years ago I hired an amazing woman to be my mom’s nurse’s aide. And now she is my dad’s. Currently she is also sort of my best friend. We pay her a lot, but the work is soul wrenching. I should be doing it but she is. She is very good at it, and she needs the money, but it is soul wrenching work. So there is always my guilt that I am making her do the work that I am not tough enough to do, and that she is not tough enough to turn down.
She would not agree with my perspective on her position. So I do have that.
Betty Cracker
@Kent: Klobuchar is trying to move up in Iowa, so pumping sunshine up Midwestern skirts makes sense, I guess. As a coastal (swamp-dwelling) elitist, any insinuation that the landlocked portions of the country are somehow more American than the rest grates my ass too.
Steeplejack (phone)
@lamh36:
LOL, whatever you linked to, Huckabee has deleted it. From reading some other tweets it looks like she made fun of Biden’s stutter? As you said, what a bish.
It also looks like she apologized to Biden. But I’m sure the right-wing mob got her message all right.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: Wow. That is gorgeous. I want to go there.
tobie
@O. Felix Culpa: That sounds right to me. I think she added tonight that she’s tough and can go toe to toe with Trump. That’s why she mentioned that Kavanaugh was obnoxious to her during his confirmation hearing and had to apologize to her soon after that.
I thought this exchange showed her toughness.
The reference to “flyover country” was irritating as hell.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: I have never lived within five hundred miles of the ocean, and never set foot in Los Angeles, spent a total of two weekends in NYC, and I hate the term “Heartland” with a passion
Steeplejack (phone)
@Betty Cracker:
Okay, I get it now. What a maroon.
O. Felix Culpa
@Another Scott: Your take on Senate versus presidential campaign is interesting and I’ll think on it further. My sense was that she exhibited leadership on the stage tonight, which is better than talking about it.
I remain a skeptic on the bad boss allegations. It could be true, but more often it’s a canard against strong women in leadership.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: Directed at Mystal, who I think is otherwise excellent.
via GIPHY
sab
@TomatoQueen: Yay for you and that little boy. I have had skittish Shadow with me for years, and we have only gotten comfortable enough for lapwork this year (thanks Werebear for us getting this far.
Also, I did your roll pie dough in one direction. Didn’t make sense to me at the time, but it does make better pie-dough.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: They stole it from Lothlorien once the elves all went west across the sea.
Anne Laurie
@Betty Cracker:
I *still* think he’ll find a way to flame out (because he’s done so twice already), but I’ve reconciled myself to having Biden as our candidate as long as he picks a younger VP candidate. (Nope, not Biden/Warren — IMO, all the media disadvantages & no particular benefits.) But Biden/Harris (in my fantasies), Biden/ Klobuchar, Biden/Abrams, Biden/Gillibrand, Biden/Castro, Biden/Booker…
(Had wondered if it just might be Biden/Buttigieg — back to gritting my teeth — but probably not after tonight’s debate.)
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, Pete didn’t do too well tonight.
Amy K was on point. Calling out the building code for needing to support higher energy standards makes me like her a lot more. (Even though building codes are adopted by municipalities.)
Suzanne
@lamh36: I just showed Fuckabee’s tweet to Mr. Suzanne, who is a bilingual speech pathologist. The look on his face…. I don’t know if I’ve seen him so horrified and sad since a certain November evening in 2016.
Yarrow
@sab: You are lucky to have found her. She can leave if she wants so don’t take on her decision as your failure in any way. In many ways it’s harder for the child to do that kind of work because of the parent-child relationship. You are doing the best thing for your dad and can be proud of yourself for making that choice.
Yarrow
@Suzanne: Did you show him Biden’s tweet in response. It’s very good. Biden’s new social media manager is excellent.
Suzanne
@Yarrow: Yes, I did. It’s a good defense. It’s just so fucked-up that these people LITERALLY TAUNT PEOPLE FOR DISABILITIES. Like, what the FUCK.
Once again…. these people are losers at life, they know it, and they are resentful at those who are doing better. It’s not about tax cuts or use of the military or national security or even about guns. It’s about being consumed with jealousy because black people and women and Mexicans are competing with them—and kicking their asses.
Yarrow
@Suzanne: They’re just awful people. Cowards. Bullies. Petty and mean. All the worst character traits.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Anne Laurie: I’ve been coming around on Joe this week, and he had a good debate tonight. That’s gonna help him going into 2020.
If he can build a good coalition and pick a great veep, I think he’s best positioned for us to win more states overall, and to help with more of those close Senate races in reddish states!
Biden’s a bridge candidate. America needs to cool down a little after the orange nightmare. We’ll see where we go from there in 2024.
Adam L Silverman
@Suzanne: My mom who is a retired SLP, and who I didn’t show the tweet to because I didn’t need a half hour tirade, paused the TV when he made the actual remarks, including going into and out of a stutter, and remarked “in over 40 years of clinical practice, I’ve never seen a stutterer, even one who has largely gained control over his stutter, be able to go into a stutter and then come out of it that fluently”.
Citizen Alan
@Anne Laurie:
What about Biden/Andrew Gillum? It might help carry Florida which would essentially wrap up the election, wouldn’t it?
Betty Cracker
@Anne Laurie: Harris would be his best bet, IMO. Dems wouldn’t lose a Senate seat, so that’s a plus. Harris would also bring some much-needed charisma to the ticket. She would also take that sanctimonious creep Pence apart in a debate, so we’d have that to look forward to!
Ruckus
@sab:
Condolences.
Dad suffered from Alzheimer’s for 20 yrs. Passed at 84. The last 12-15 yrs were not easy in any way. Just watching someone go through that is hell. Actually trying to make life anywhere near normal for someone in the late stages is bloody impossible, all you can do is make them as comfortable as the dementia allows.
guachi
I like Klobuchar and always have. I can see why she regularly outperforms other Democrats in Minnesota.
She’d likely get tons of votes from independents. And if I’m going to vote for a moderate candidate, I want a real one and not someone pretending to be moderate for the votes.
Also, screw all the obvious misogyny that has sidelined her.
Suzanne
@Adam L Silverman: Mr. Suzanne commented similarly about Biden. But who cares how good he is at managing it?! YOU DON’T MOCK PEOPLE FOR DISABILITIES.
sab
@WaterGirl: Actual stepkids. Caring is the optional part, and I am pretty sure that they are actually very fond of me.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: I also like that both Biden and Harris have upbeat personalities. I think that would be a welcome change after years of nastiness.
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
Agree with this. We need someone calming, experienced, positive, kind. Give us a few years of that and we’ll see where we are then.
Adam L Silverman
@Suzanne: No argument from me.
sab
@Ruckus: You are kind of my lodestar for how to handle this stuff.
Kent
@Yarrow: Yeah, I kind of disagree. The GOP didn’t give us some bridge candidate to gently ease us away from the horror of Obama. They went full on Trump and have been horrible in every possible way that they can be horrible in every single nook and cranny of government.
If the Dems win, they will only have so long to clean house and right the ship. It is a Herculean task and will take 24/7 effort by the very best and most talented Dems we have in government. We don’t need some bridge candidate to launch us into 2024. We need to get started on day 1 and not stop until the job is finished
I want the no fucks left to give wield the full power of the administrative state late term Obama, not some tipandronnie can’t we all get along transition type.
Ruckus
@sab:
An outside person, even one that has a long history, has a different perspective taking care of a dementia sufferer than a family member. It’s not an easy thing at all but it is easier and the distance makes it so. Over the years a number of people helped with dad and everyone of them did great but they got to walk away if necessary, even if it was a short time to recoup. As a relative, you just don’t have that ability to walk away. For the last 6 yrsof my dad’s life I lived 2500 miles away and had to be ready at literally a moments notice to jump on a plane, no matter what else in life was happening. I lost count of the number of times I was packing and got a call that everything was OK, or was at work and got that call. Your life isn’t your own. I did get to sit with him and hold him as he passed, hating that he was gone and thankful that he didn’t have to suffer like that any longer.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
Just on the economy thing, a lot of the red states are negative taxation states and being told that we in the blue coastal areas suck and aren’t American enough for their wholesome goodness rather pisses me off.
Mike in NC
Joe / Amy 2020. I’m ready.
Yarrow
Every Democratic candidate needs to be talking about the courts at every stop. Supreme Court, Appeals courts, federal courts. Talk about all of them and how important they are. None of these exciting proposals will happen if Dems don’t win the Senate and we won’t get to keep anything without dealing with the courts.
Anne Laurie
Sure — what little I know about Gillum is very positive! And he’d make the self-righteous “I’d vote for a black person, just not *that* black person” commentors swallow their tongues, which is also a positive, IMO…
Suzanne
@Ruckus: Their exclusionary conception of “American” as white heartlands Christian who don’t need no book is their only high-status identity, in their minds, so they have to figure out some way to feel superior. It sucks for them, because the people they hate are doing better than them.
i really think too many liberals miss this dynamic.
Yarrow
@Kent: I’d like that too but I don’t see that person up on the stage. I do not think Warren is that person as much as she’s got good ideas. Maybe Klobuchar? I thought Harris could be that person but she didn’t catch on. Definitely not Sanders, Yang, Steyer, Bloomberg, or Buttigeig.
Personally I think Biden is the best bet but I understand why people think he’s too tipandronnie.
frosty
@Ruckus: Parkinson’s for my Dad, vascular dementia for my Mom. They moved into a continuing care facility after my Dad’s diagnosis which spared us kids from the caregiving. Still, it’s hard. You don’t get one moment of grieving, instead over 10 years or so you lose part of them every time you visit.
Yarrow
@Anne Laurie: Doesn’t Gillum have some financial scandal of some sort? I haven’t followed it but vaguely remember something like that.
I’m nervous about our presidential candidate choosing a running mate who lost their most recent election and who hasn’t held an office higher than state legislator or mayor. Not that they’re not very talented people but I think it would end up being used against them–both Abrams and Gillum.
Ruckus
@sab:
All you can do is put one foot in front of the other. The word easy loses all meaning. The word survival becomes the key. Lots of people do this, and it can be done. It’s just debilitating to the nth degree. But it is doable.
sab
@Ruckus: I thought my old age was going to be glorious. Then I was out with my amazing and beautiful granddaughter today, and my husband acted positively demented. Drove all over the county, and when we questioned him about our route he was puzzled.
I was bracing f9e my bad heart. I never thought to brace for spouse dementia. His driving today scared the shit out of me. Those lane lines serve a purpose, and guys with glaucoma and no peripheral vision shouldn’t be casual about drifting onto the next lane.
Kent
@Yarrow: Hillary Clinton could have been that person. Of the present crop I think Klobuchar is probably the best equipped for the no fucks left to give political and bureaucratic knife fighting that it is going to take to root out Trumpism and turn the country around. It’s not going to be about stuff like getting M4A through the Senate, it’s going to be about using executive and administrative power to fast-track regulatory and personnel changes everywhere at once in the vast federal bureaucracy from the EPA to State Department.
But honestly this is really a full-time 24/7 job for a no holds barred balls to the wall VP who is empowered to dive deep into the bureaucracy and make sure shit gets done. Just to cite one random example. You want to roll back Trump’s pro-coal environmental policies? You don’t spend 6 years pussy-footing around at endless public meetings with coal executives and MAGA coal miners to get half way back to where we were with Obama. You just fucking use your power to get it done. Elections have consequences. The GOP understands this. They are going to hate you no matter what. Results are what matters.
patroclus
I think Klobuchar did very well tonight and she is definitely my favorite now. I also liked Harris and Booker but one of them is gone and the other hasn’t caught fire at all. I still like Biden but not when he actually opens his mouth and talks. Amy is a mainstream liberal and would be a fine standard bearer for the party. But I’ll still vote for any of them over Trump, so I’ll accept whatever candidate the party chooses.
burnspbesq
@jk:
All true. Also all irrelevant. Biden isn’t Trump, and that’s the only thing that matters.
burnspbesq
@Yarrow:
well, yeah. But the question is, “what do you do about 175 assholes with life tenure?”
you have an answer? I sure as shit don’t.
Ruckus
@frosty:
That’s tough and unfortunately very true. I can tell from experience you that the time for grieving will come around. Dad gone 18 yrs ago, mom gone going on 8.
I’m so glad that I found out 3-4 months ago that I do not have Parkinson’s. And currently don’t have dementia. Do have old but then that’s just the way it is and better to have old than nothing. And none of us get out of this gig scot free.
sab
@Ohio Mom: Here is another thing I am worried about. My oldest not quite a grandchild (she isn’t, technically, but both she and I think she is) doesn’t want to go to college, because she dosen’t like people. ( She works on weekends as a waitress. Of course she doesn’t like people.) So she doesn’t want to go to college. She is considereing on line That made my hair stand upright. She took ACTs and is in the top 98%. It seems a waste to not send her to school.
She wants to go online. I think she is understandably concerned about baby sibling. We are recomending Western Governors. What other online collges are legit?
trollhattan
@Yarrow:
IMO the running mate has the capacity to hurt the nominee and no meaningful influence to help her or him.
Tim Kaine did speak Spanish.
Kent
@sab: HS teacher and parent here. I’d advise against any 100% online school. Especially for undergrad. It’s a little different for say mid-career folk who are just trying to leverage an additional degree into better career options. Your local community college probably has lots of online classes that can be taken as do all the major state schools. If she really wants online I’d suggest doing some local community college stuff, online and otherwise, and leverage that into a transfer to your local in-state brick and mortar school that is most appropriate. Will be a LOT cheaper to take Calculus, Spanish 2, World History, and other core classes online through a community college than through some private operation.
trollhattan
@sab:
“go to college” encompasses a universe of its own–from local community college to Stanford. The challenge may be to help her expand her view and absorb the vast array of paths to higher education.
Said as a parent with a kid on the cusp.
Citizen Alan
@trollhattan:
And I stand by my conviction that Al Gore would have cruised to victory if he’d picked Bob Graham as his running mate instead of Holy Joe.
Martin
@Kent: Conservatives always punch down. Always. That’s why conservative comedy isn’t funny – it sounds identical to conservative judgmentation.
trollhattan
Trump’s America, on display this holiday season. in a nice, neighborly community, possibly near you.
Martin
@sab: Western Governors is good. I’d look into Open University as well. It’s based in UK but they’ve been doing online education since the early 70s and are a well regarded university.
Online university education in the US tends to be pretty awful. The overarching attitude is that classroom instruction is optimal, so let’s just record that and call it a day. Non-profit institutions dedicated to online instruction tend to be dramatically better, tailoring their instruction to the medium. Look for self-paced courses rather than those shoe-horned into a traditional college calendar.
It’s not always all its cracked up to be. My daughter did a year of HS online, and she didn’t really care for it. A lot of that was that it wasn’t a great implementation. Implementation really matters a lot here.
Martin
@Betty Cracker: People do realize that California is the 4th largest wine producer in the world? That wine cave is our equivalent of a Texas BBQ joint – there’s hundreds of places like that.
psycholinguist
@sab: College professor here. I don’t like people much either, so I’m sympathetic to her position (most college profs are introvert/misanthrope types). The good news about online is that Obama took a hammer to the for-profits, and killed a lot of them off, and at the same time most state and private nonprofit schools were recognizing that the majority of college students are nontraditional, that the residential 4-year model isn’t reaching a lot of people, and they started developing hybrid and online programs that are much more legitimate. I’d look at in-state public university offerings first, and see what’s available; The advantage being that it would provide an easier transition (classes would count) to the school’s residential full time program if she finds a discipline she’s excited about. See if you can convince her to take a tour at a few places close by. With that kind of ACT they will roll out the red carpet for her.
hervevillechaizelounge
@Yarrow:
Gillum had a (completely blown out of proportion) corruption scandal for accepting theater tickets. He’s also reported to be in the closet, which makes him very susceptible to blackmail.
I’m calling it now; if Joe is the nominee he’s going with rising star Stacey Abrams and I’m loving it. She’s sagacious but also joyous, a very rare combination.
Martin
You don’t say.
JPL
The comments about the debate have been more insightful than the papers commentary. Thanks all.
rikyrah
@TomatoQueen:
Awe ?
I have been waiting for Merlin news???
Anne Laurie
P.S. to those looking for the Morning Thread(s): As of 5:30am, I’ve got both a post-debate and a Friday Morning OT post ready, but FYWP is not letting me publish (or preview) them.
Insert ‘shruggie’ emoji…
SFAW
@lamh36:
Yesterday, I commented that, as vile as Jethrene was, Grisham seemed to have surpassed her (with the “counter-punching John/Debbie Dingell” vileness).
Jethrene heard Grisham’s evil, and said “hold my
white lightningbeer.”SFAW
@Martin:
Trump has surpassed Cali, he’s now the BEST/biggest whine producer.
Jinchi
I agree.
The consequences of a cycle where Republican absolutists are followed by Democrats who allow the country to “cool off for a bit” is a country that ratchets ever more to the extreme right.
Jinchi
Not in the Democratic primary.
Fair Economist
@Martin:
Not *that* wine cave.