For you to post links to the atrocities we missed this week.
BTW- I am really tired today for some reason, and need a break from blogging. I might be back later today, and I might not. if you want some more disagreement with John Cole, go here to Brian Linse’s, as he disagrees with my take on the whole ‘withdrawal’ resolution. I need a break, but I will respond to Brian later.
daveman
Roll Tide!
nyrev
I like Joe’s post at The Moderate Voice better. Good explanation of what happened last night and no mention of anyone’s alleged koolaid habit.
TallDave
A soldier speaks on fighting for freedom.
http://sgthook.com/2005/11/17/taste-of-freedom/
Read the whole thing, as they say.
neil
I’m still quite disappointed in John’s approval of Republicans playing politics with Iraq when Democrats try to have an honest discussion of the issue. Well, if things continue like this, it will be quite clear by next year which party is willing to entertain serious discussion of U.S. foreign policy, and which is willing to shout any discussion down.
ppGaz
Shove it, Dave. Fighting for God-given Freedom?
I got news for you, Dave. God did not give the world America to save every dysfunctional country out there from itself. God didn’t give me grandchildren to offer them up to the government for the glory of Iraq.
All you are doing is acting out your frustrated fantasy of being a war hero vicariously on somebody else’s back. Maudlin letters from troops does not make you right. You’re the guy who thinks Americans are “too stupid” to vote right. Why the hell should I listen to you, anyway?
TallDave
Actually, ppGaz, you want to address that “shove it” to the soldier, not me. I’m just spreading his message, per his request. (But remember, you’re patriotically supporting the troops when you tell them to shove it!)
I’ve got news for you ppGaz: guys like this are the reason you’re free. They’re the reason your grandchildren are free. They’re the reason anyone in the world is free, whether here or in Europe or anywhere else.
But you don’t get that (and the soldier understands that, and explains why in his letter). Fine. No one’s asking you or your grandchildren to fight; it’s a volunteer armed forces.
ppGaz
Dead wrong, Dave. I am addressing it directly to you.
Guys like you are the kind of people who will wrap themselves in flags and dead soldiers to puff themselves up, Dave. I’m not deceived by what you are doing.
You suck, man. You should be ashamed of yourself.
TallDave
ppGaz,
That post had nothing to do with me. But I guess it’s easier to attack me than deal with what it says.
ppGaz
Says you. I say different. I think it had to do with nothing but you. Let’s review:
1) Maudlin letters you didn’t write don’t make you right
2) I’m not taking any advice from a guy who says the American people are “too stupid” to vote right.
The American people created America, Dave. Whereas the Iraqi people created Iraq. I don’t owe them squat. I accede to a war there if and only if it is to defend my country from a real, immediate and unambiguous threat, and there is no other choice. If Iraquis can’t save their country from itself, that’s very sad, but it is not my problem, and you sure as hell are the last person on earth who is going to make it my problem.
We can do this all day if you want, because I’m right and you’re wrong, and nothing is going to change here.
TallDave
ppGaz,
1) Right about what? What the hell are you even talking about? I just posted a letter from a soldier who wants his message heard.
2) I didn’t offer any advice, just a letter, and you’re the one whose party Americans aren’t voting for.
Your compassion for your fellow man is overwhelming. Goodbye free South Korea, Taiwan, Western Europe, Japan!
EL
TallDave:
I respect the troops, I honor their service, and am grateful beyond what I can expresss for what they do. I am very conscious of the importance of WWII, perhaps especially because I am Jewish. With all due respect to the troops, I can still disagree with what one soldier has written. And I don’t necessarily disagree with some of the sentiments, just with how they apply to the situation in question.
I question whether we are indeed bringing freedom to Iraq, or simply substituting a theocracy for a dictatorship. If women have to go back under Sharia, I can’t call that freedom. If the Shia get to oppress the Sunni, I can’t call that freedom.
And I question whether the American people would have supported this war initially if they knew the main reason was to “bring freedom” to the Iraqis – I think we both know the answer: “No.”
For portions of Iraq I believe that is the case now, after 2 years of occupation. It’s why many Iraqis turned against us.
If you really support this argument, TallDave, did you support going into Bosnia? Serbia? How about Rwanda? Why aren’t you campaigning for the US to go into Darfur right now?
Reality check: Some of the Iraqis do cheer, hug and kiss soldiers. Perhaps this soldier has only served in a region where that is the norm. Other Iraqis have become so disillusioned that they shoot at and blow up our soldiers. I could badmouth the president for invading Iraq, but I’d badmouth him much more seriously for not understanding the country, its culture, and its internal fault lines beforehand. And for being damned incompetent since.
Kimmitt
Freedom is worth fighting and dying for. Losing isn’t.
TallDave
I question whether we are indeed bringing freedom to Iraq, or simply substituting a theocracy for a dictatorship.
Iraq has a free press, freedom to elect their leaders, freedom to criticize the government. It’s not remotely a theocracy. Iran is a theocracy: no freedom of the press, the clerics decide who can run and who can’t, people who criticize the gov’t are beaten and jailed for it.
TallDave
If you really support this argument, TallDave, did you support going into Bosnia? Serbia? How about Rwanda? Why aren’t you campaigning for the US to go into Darfur right now?
The answers are yes, yes, yes, and I do advocate that.
What if someone told you when you could have heat, electricity, and water? What if you had no sewage systems so human waste flowed into the streets?”
For portions of Iraq I believe that is the case now, after 2 years of occupation. It’s why many Iraqis turned against us.
You are misinformed. Read the Iraq Index. The changes in Sadr City alone are overwhelming.
EL
If it continues down the path it’s going with the constitution, I can’t call if free. Do you consider women under the Shiite version of Sharia law free?
Weren’t there incidents where the coalition authority shut down press and other media? And no – before you paint this with a broad brush, it’s better than Iran, but still not what I’d call freedom.
TallDave
Reality check: Some of the Iraqis do cheer, hug and kiss soldiers. Perhaps this soldier has only served in a region where that is the norm. Other Iraqis have become so disillusioned that they shoot at and blow up our soldiers
Not really. The vast majority of the people shooting at us are Sunnis who benefitted from Saddam; they aren’t disillusioned, they just want to oppress the country again. Iraq was run by mafioso; big surprise their henchmen aren’t fans of being overthrown for freedom and democracy.
And even quite a few Sunnis aren’t that unhappy to have us around. Diyala province, for example, is substantially Sunni and fairly peaceful.
TallDave
EL,
We shut down press in this country too, when they advocate violence.
TallDave
EL,
If it continues down the path it’s going with the constitution, I can’t call if free.
You mean this constitution?
http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html
Do you consider women under the Shiite version of Sharia law free?
Depends on how it’s applied. Every Muslim country has some form of sharia.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
As I wrote yesterday:
Sure enough…
TallDave
Oops that was actually the TAL. Here’s the new one:
Not very theocratic.
TallDave
But a lot of the law depends on how it’s interpreted. So here’s the really salient point: the high judges in New Iraq are appointed by elected officials, specifically the Council of Representatives.
In Iran, the highest judges are not just appointed by clerics, they are clerics.
EL
TD:
Most women are concerned about this part:
and
I worry about this last when “general morality” for women can be quite restrictive. Even if Iraq stabilizes, it may or may not live up to its constitution. The recent revelation of the torture of 173 Iraqis, mostly Sunni, definitely isn’t living up to its constitution.
Andrei
Sounds like words spoken by a liberal.
Seriously, no snark intended. Since when was it the position of conservatives take on something that has largely been considered a liberal hippie position of the past 30 years?
Up is down? Black is white? You tell me TD.
Next thing you’ll start telling me the GOP has a new welfare program ready to help the poor in this country rise up from the oppression of their poverty.
EL
This makes it sound like your definition of “free” is “better than Iran.” That’s a poor standard, IMHO.
ppGaz
My assertions were clear, Dave. No need to pretend now that you don’t understand them.
Compassion? Fuck you, Dave. I take no lectures from you on any subject, certainly not “compassion.”
Continue with your dishonest and emotional appeal. My compassion for Iraq or any other fucked up country does not obligate me to go to war for it, or to send my offspring to war for it. I do not owe Iraq freedom. This country does not owe Iraq freedom. Any attempt to hook anybody into that dishonest bargain will meet with the same response, Dave, if I catch you at it.
You think you owe Iraq freedom? God for you, Dave. go over there and knock yourself out. But I will work to stop you from employing my country and my family in order to do it. Unless Iraq represents a real, immediate and unambiguous threat to the United States, the answer is no.
It never represented any such threat, and the answer is no.
Bob In Pacifica
Tall Dave’s mindset reminds me of a record done back in the sixties. TD is in the same zone. When I found it for 29 cents in a cutout bin I actually bought the album for its comic value. Here’s the lyrics, but to get the full effect you need to hear Victor Lundberg reading it over the strains of “The Battle Hymn of The Republic”:
An Open Letter To My Teenage Son by Victor Lundberg
Dear son:
You ask my reaction to long hair or beards on young people.
Some great men have worn long hair and beards. George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. If to you long hair or a beard is a symbol of independence,if you believe in your heart that the principles of this country our heritage, is worthy of this display of pride, that all men shall remain free, that free men at all times will not inflict their personal limitations of achievement on others, that demands your own rights as well as the rights of others and be willing to fight for this right, you have my blessings.
You ask that I not judge you merely as a teenager to judge you on your own personal habits, abilities and goals. This is a fair request and I promise that I will not judge any person only as a teenager if you will constantly remind yourself that some of my generation judge people by their race, their belief or the color of their skin and that this is no more right than saying all teenagers are drunken dope addicts or glue sniffers. If you will judge every human being on his own individual potential, I will do the same.
You ask me if God is dead. This is a question each individual must answer within himself. But a warm summer day with all its brightness all its sound, all its exhilarating breathiness just happened? God is love. Remember that God is a guide and not a storm trooper.
Realize that many of the past and present generation because of a well intended but unjustifiable misconception
have attempted to legislate morality. This created part of the basis for your generations need to rebel against our society. With this knowledge perhaps your children will never ask “Is God dead?” I sometimes think much of mankind is attempting to work Him to death.
You ask my opinion of draft card burners. I would answer this way:
All past wars have been dirty, unfair, immoral, bloody and second-guessed. However, history has shown most of them necessary. If you doubt that our free enterprise system
in the United States is worth protecting, if you doubt the principles upon which this country was founded, that we remain free to choose our religion, our individual endeavors, our method of government, if you doubt that each free individual in this great country should reap rewards commensurate only with his own efforts then it is doubtful you belong here. If you doubt that people who govern us should be selected by their desire to allow us to strive for any goal we feel capable of obtaining then it’s doubtful you should participate in their selection.
If you are not grateful to a country that gave your father the opportunity to work for his family to give you the things you have and you do not feel pride enough to fight for your right to continue in this manner than I assume the blame for your failure to recognize the true value of our birthright, and I will remind you that your mother will love you no matter what you do, because she is a woman and I love you too son,but I also love our country and the principles for which we stand, and if you decide to burn your draft card, then burn your birth certificate at the same time. From that moment on, I have no son.
+++
Well, no draft cards this time around, which is supposed to eliminate any right to protest, in the minds of these guys like TD who get their alpha testosterone from identifying with their leaders. No draft cards, but the same stupid, boot-licking subservience to authority figures that get lots of people killed.
Bob In Pacifica
From TallDave’s letter:
“What if someone told you when you could have heat, electricity, and water?” -TallDave, get in touch with Iraqis. They had heat, electricity and water until we fucked up their infrastructure.
“What if you had no sewage systems so human waste flowed into the streets?” -See above. You might also want to track down where all the money went when Bremmer was viceroy over there, and why after two years we haven’t fixed what we broke.
“What if someone would kill you for bad-mouthing your government?” -TallDave, is your letter-writer referring to all those police/death squads formed since the Americans occupied the country? I know he couldn’t still be justifying the continued occupation of Iraq based on Saddam’s regime, since that hasn’t been around for years.
“What if you couldn’t put shoes on your child’s feet?” -TallDave, is your letter-writer suggesting that we share our wealth in order to put shoes on the feet of Iraqi children. If so, how about a little socialism here in America? There are lots of kids without medical care, kids who go to school without breakfast. Other industrial nations seem to do a better job of taking care of its poor.
So, TallDave, while it seems that your letter-writer is ignorant of how America’s invasion has adversely affected the quality of the average Iraqi’s life, I salute his embrace of socialism as a means of correcting those inequalities and hope that he continues to support a redistribution of wealth here in America in order to help the less well off.
That’s what he meant, right TD? Or did he just mean he wanted us to continue killing people over there?
docG
How about a letter from another soldier? TallDave, you wouldn’t disrespect a soldier with any kind of negative comment about his letter, now would you?
RSA
I think what comes across in both letters is an admirable idealism in the soldiers’ minds, that they’re fighting for a country whose principles they believe in. As EL eloquently writes, it’s impossible not to feel respect for that idealism and for their bravery and sacrifice (for me, at least), whether or not they support this particular conflict.
But that doesn’t mean I can’t disagree with some individual soldiers’ views, in particular about the reasons they’re over there. Not offering reasonable and justified disagreement is an abdication of our responsibility to them. Otherwise we’re treating soldiers as no more than cannon fodder, tools for political purposes.
Steve S
Understandable. You’ve feigned a lot of false outrage this week. That stuff can really drag a guy down.
nyrev
Don’t worry. In the case of an outrage outage, we’ve still got MacDaverell70 as emergency backup. Everybody say “Leftists!”
Pb
TallDave,
I agree that freedom is a good thing, but it sounds like the hypothetical country in that soldier’s letter isn’t pre-war Iraq. Maybe we need to be freeing North Korea instead?