A good summary from Balloon-Juice fan Paul Krugman. Here’s the closing:
Overall, way better than the rumors and trial balloons. I can live with this. And whatever the pundits may say, it was much, much more serious than the Ryan “plan”.
With the caveat:
Update: I should probably say, I could live with this as an end result. If this becomes the left pole, and the center is halfway between this and Ryan, then no — better to pursue the zero option of just doing nothing and letting the Bush tax cuts as a whole expire.
nisl
TPM is reporting that Boner, I mean Bohner, is saying it is the Ryan plan or nothing.
Sentient Puddle
You know what’s going to be fun? Watching as this thread devolves into how Obama will preemptively capitulate and we’ll end up with 90% (at least) of the Ryan plan by the time the 2012 budget passes.
I predict the opening salvo will come on comment #13.
Suffern ACE
@nisl: Fine. Then nothing.
dmsilev
Fix the block-quoting please (the last half is also Krug).
dms
Social outcast
You’re not getting tax increases on the wealthy alone unless you take back the House. And Obama has already shown the GOP that it can take the middle class cuts hostage when the Bush cuts are due to expire. So where does that leave his plan? Not in the territory of “maybe this works.”
Maude
I almost felt sorry for the Republicans after this speech.
Almost.
They are going to have a rough time with the Ryan plan vote Friday.
I listened on the radio and Obama’s voice was calm.
The PL are going to have to stop using the word cat food.
I know they won’t.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@nisl: It’s like Agent Orange wants Obama to win, or something.
nisl
@Suffern ACE: I agree. Just doing nothing and letting Bush’s “A new Bentley every year for Paris Hilton” plan expire will do more than Ryan’s plan. And there is no need to kill off anyone’s grandparents to realize the savings.
Villago Delenda Est
The “Bush tax cuts” should not only be “allowed” to expire, they should be retroactively repealed.
Comrade DougJ
@dmsilev:
Thanks, I got distracted while writing.
Poopyman
DougJ, how could you so ruthlessly interrupt the reasoned discussions in the previous thread?
Comrade DougJ
@nisl:
For reals? I hope he doesn’t back down here.
D.N. Nation
So the Obama in Krugman’s head doesn’t match the actual one? Yet again?
You’d figure members of the Overpaid, Overfed Columnist Class would stop making this mistake, but alas, perpetual outrage ha$ it$ reward$.
BlueDWarrior
Wow, the Republicans on the response are really damn mad right now.
I guess they thought he was really gonna go full-metal Ryan in his rhetoric.
harokin
That Krugman is a sharp cookie. Has anyone asked if he’d have any interest being a FP’er here?
dmsilev
@Comrade DougJ: TPM:
Yeah, Boehner’s all-in on Ryan-plan.
Davis X. Machina
Too little, too late.
He needed to resign. Preferably after ending all three wars, and an abject apology, but a flat-out resignation would have been o.k., too.
Let Biden or Boehner do the job — they have no souls, they’re politicians.
Power corrupts, with great power corrupting greatly. Resignation is the only way to show that you’re unwilling to be complicit in your own corruption. Think of the message that would send to power — that you refuse to play along.
A real progressive Obama would have resigned as soon as he was inaugurated — that way his complicity would have been strictly limited. O.K., you need to make the point that America is moving forward, by electing a person of color, but that’s made the day you’re sworn in — then you immediately resign, and go into the opposition.
But not in opposition in Congress — they’re complicit too.
Opposition in the streets.
And then BJ could go back to swapping recipes, cat photos, and dog-behavior-modification tips.
Served
I laughed and job laughed. The new Republican talking point strategy: just randomly insert the word “job” in as a modifier.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to take a job nap.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dmsilev:
“jobs budget”? I haven’t seen that yet. They must be seeing some bad numbers on that turd
Bob Loblaw
I never understand why we have these expectations games in the first place?
Obama wants to constrain Medicare growth and end obscene tax cuts to the wealthy? GTFO. He has never said that before…oh wait, he has? Constantly? For four years now? Wow, I guess he must like believe in that or something. Weird.
He’s a very predictable President. Usually for better than for worse. I just don’t get the internet divisiveness.
Legalize
Boner has to run back to the freak-show with his tail between his legs and go all in (publicly) with RyanNoCare.
chopper
@nisl:
so this is what the GOP is going to go with? the ryan plan or bust? jesus, that’s idiotic.
i know boner knows he has no control of the teabagger caucus but the guy could show enough of a spine as not to stand behind the worst budget offering ever, but shit.
nisl
@nisl: No doubt. I don’t know what the Goopers are thinking. I’m guessing they are terrified of their Teabagger base revolting; newsflash Bohner – they’ve always been revolting.
Maybe they think that with the Citizens United ruling and their Fox Noise machine, they’ll have such a money/messaging advantage that they can say or propose anything and get away with it. But I’m not so sure.
One of Obama’s greatest political strengths is his timing. During the 2008 campaign I’d hear people saying, “Obama has to do X, and he has to do it now or it is all over.” Yet Obama would bide his time and counter only when he deemed the time to be right.
For instance he let the Ryan plan percolate and didn’t say much until today. Why the wait? Because by leaving it alone and not directly pointing out how fubar the plan is he got a lot of Goopers to go on record as being for the plan.
chopper
@Served:
i’m imagining steve jobs is really confused right about now.
Sentient Puddle
Blast, I was wrong. I guess the previous thread is just fly paper covered in honey.
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est:
Whoa now big fella!
Djur
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: They need to add “blow” to that and I’m on board.
chopper
@nisl:
by coming out against the plan now, he certainly allowed it to get tagged as the GOP’s own baby. seeing boner’s response, it looks like the GOP is all-in on teh crazy.
i guess obama just got hisself reelected.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Sentient Puddle: more like a road apple on a hot day. There’s some ‘baggers down there I don’t think I’ve seen before. Actually, they’re not unlike the Boner quote above, won’t let go of the bone.
Chris
@chopper:
Yeah, a jab at the “professional right” would not go amiss here, but…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Djur: that’s the Gingrich budget, his personal budget, not a political proposal
Lolis
I am sure we will get nothing. But this shows what Dems want to do. That is all Obama had to do. Boehner is already saying the Ryan plan or nada. I don’t think most of the Republican presidential candidates agree with that. The Ryan plan is going down in flames, but the longer Republicans try to push it, the better for everyone.
nisl
@chopper: I certainly hope so.
But I’ve kind of taken that for granted for awhile. The GOP candidates are about as appealing as a kissing booth at a herpes convention. The question, in my opinion, is can the Democrats pickup seats in Congress. I’m thinking with the Ryan plan as the go to wingnut plan, the answer is yes.
Scott P.
You should apply to be Sarah Palin’s speechwriter.
Studly Pantload, Vibrant Trollbot for Obama
@Davis X. Machina:
What, no impeachment? Republican-lite apologist (oops – opolgist)!!
@nisl:
Along with others here, that’s one chicken I’m all too happy to see the GOP keep fucking.
EDA: Oh, yeah, can’t forget the trial for the crimes against humanity. Where *is* my head, today?
Marc
It’ll be somewhere between hilarious and sad to see how the pout-rage brigade will twist this into how Obama will fail us. It must be a demonic trick if the words from his mouth are not the same as the voices in their head.
agrippa
@Davis X. Machina:
To be kind: Thanks, but no thanks.
Sentient Puddle
@Marc: See the thread below. Your guess happens to be 100% correct.
TooManyJens
@Lolis:
You’re right that we won’t get this. Budgets have to originate in the House, which is controlled by crazy people. The sad thing is that when we don’t get this, people will use that as evidence that Obama is weak (get back to me when the President can force members of the other party to vote for a proposal they hate) and/or that he secretly wants this plan to tank. That’s what makes me totally crazy.
agrippa
The speech, as a political speech, was excellent. It did put the GOP on the back foot.
I do appreciate the fact that Krugman did not dislike it.
jibeaux
@Villago Delenda Est:
While I am worried about the revenue-spending imbalance, I can’t say that I want to submit ten years’ worth of amended tax returns along with ten years’ worth of additional taxes.
Beta Magellan
@nisl:
This is the sense I’m getting from Wisconsin—Walker & co. seem to think they’re unbeatable because they have money and can go on Fox News. What they fail to remember, though, is that most people don’t have the option of living in an alternative reality.
rickstersherpa
I went over and read Sully’s blog of the speech. At one point he imagines the Krugman in head getting very upset (I think the phrase was “Krugman’s head will explode” because the President says he believes that Republicans want to do the right thing” when the actual Krugman blows this off as the typical stuff a politician says and is pretty happy with the speech.
Krugman has never been an Obamabot. He was critical of Obama in 2007-08 during the primaries as the most rightward/centrist policy candidate among the top 3 (and was royaly flamed by Firedoglake for being so tough on Obama – my how things have changed. I am glad he stands to the left of Obama and provides criticism.
I only get peeved at might fellow travelers facing toward Zion when they start going on that Obama is as bad as Republican and that they are going to “Nader” him 2012 so can get President Bachman or Pawlenty into office with a Republican Senate and House. That is something Krugman has never said or done no matter how frustrated he gets.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@TooManyJens:
I’m waiting to see what the Blue Dogs say, I’m sure CNN will bring us the balanced views of Claire McCaskill and Ben Nelson! (I originally typed Mark Pryor, but damn me if I ever remember seeing him on TV)
Villago Delenda Est
@jibeaux:
If those fucked up tax cuts hadn’t been passed, and we didn’t engage in two totally useless wars, there would be no deficit to speak of right now.
But then again, I forget. “The deficit” is just a stalking horse for “fuck over the bottom 99%”.
Just Some Fuckhead
This was my original point in Tim F.’s Morning Thread two days back before the Obots got all butthurt about their feelings. How can this be anything other than the left pole? Does Paul Krugman not understand the concept of “compromise”?
Chris
@rickstersherpa:
This.
As I recall, Krugman not only doesn’t want anyone Nadered, he wasn’t much of a fan of the original Nader’s action in 2000.
eric
note to everyone…you can’t get nothing. reality, meet the debt ceiling. if the GOP makes the budget a condition of raising the debt ceiling, well, nothing is very very very very bad.
gwangung
@TooManyJens: You are displaying far too much sense to be posting around here.
Marc
@Sentient Puddle:
Good God. I just read through that train wreck.
There is a list of about half a dozen dead-enders there. They can’t admit that they were wrong – and there was one remarkable post by El Tiburon (the last one of his that I will ever pay attention to) where he said
“I am not watching the speech, but while we are on topic, if Obama is being as forceful as you claim he is, then tell me when he has been this forceful on other issues. Because, quite frankly, I don’t recall it.”.
It’s like trying to reason with young-Earth creationists. The usual rules of logic and evidence simply have no relevance.
Cermet
For Obama, and if he isn’t totally dumb, then he waits for the thugs to give him the cuts he already decided on, and get the deal he basically wanted. The turds – a.k.a thugs – are total shit with their cut Medicare plan – pushing that lead balloon for take off will lose them their majority in 2012. There is zero chance the thug’s pay masters will permit their puppets to allow the debt ceiling to not be raised.
trollhattan
@TooManyJens:
Does crafting the next farm bill happen in 2012? I shudder to think what the current House will come up with. “We’ll take this he’yah Food Stamp giveaway and instead give it away to this he’yah Texas cotton farmah.”
Shoemaker-Levy 9
@Bob Loblaw:
You have to admit, his trial balloonists played this one perfectly. Whisper that there will be all sorts of Simpson-Bowles perfidy in the speech, then when there isn’t the online left becomes positively giddy over what isn’t there.
Other than the trashing of the Ryan-Bush Axis of Stupidity, which was great, there wasn’t anything especially interesting in this speech.
zach
Scanning Google Reader for the first time today, the reaction from the “serious” crew is that Obama’s talking the right talk but that his plan lacks specifics. I read his speech. I skimmed the Ryan budget. Obama has more specifics in that speech than Ryan had in the whole document. Did they expect him to bust out Powerpoint and show phony actuarial tables like Ryan’s?
I’m quite certain that the most influential people commenting on this haven’t even read Ryan’s document. For example, they don’t know that his tax plan, in it’s entirety is:
0. Repeal Obamacare
1. Reduce the top marginal rate and corporate rate to 25%
2. Have fewer marginal rates (unspecified)
3. Get rid of some expenditures (unspecified)
4. Lower cap gains taxes (unspecified)
5. Achieve revenues of 19% GDP by “broadening the tax base.”
Obama’s plan:
1. Let Bush cuts expire for the top 2 brackets
2. Let the temporary stimulus cuts expire
3. Limit unspecified tax expenditures for the top 2%
Sure, there are fewer bullet points in Obama’s plan, but it’s much more specific and easier to evaluate.
These people also don’t seem to realize that “GDP +X% Medicare & Medicaid growth overseen by medical experts” is as specific a proposal as Ryan’s proposals and has the side benefit of actually being possible.
WereBear
I did like the speech. He explains things very well; I’m sure he was a good teacher, too.
He’s even genuinely funny, which just might be a first in our history.
This was a speech by grownups, aimed at grownups, and it’s a good plan.
Gregory
@Maude:
NPR sure did. Their White house correspondent led with how the Republicans she talked to were “seething” about being invited to the speech and then — oh noes! — having to sit thru criticism of their agenda.
Oh, and lots of “Obama *says*” Ryan’s plan will privatize Medicare. Because reporting objective facts that Republicans have decided don’t poll well for them is, you know, liberal or something.
WereBear
Oh, and:
I don’t need another tax cut.
That’s brilliance, there.
Not for the first time, I am convinced this whole tax cut boondoggle is not just greed; it’s also the fact that they aren’t making anything or innovating anything or selling anything any more; they’re lousy at business and the only way they can get more profit is to take it out of MY hide via tax cuts.
Suck It Up!
I don’t give a shit what Krugman thinks.
Ranjit Suresh
Paul Krugman, in his modest endorsement, has characterized Obama’s plan as “center-right”.
So, let’s be clear; if liberals are supposed to be cheering this plan then we’re being told to celebrate a moderately conservative policy of cutting deficits instead of deficit spending during a period of severe unemployment and underemployment.
FlipYrWhig
@Ranjit Suresh: Who’s cheering it? It’s a not particularly liberal plan. We don’t have a particularly liberal politics. There are many sound, smart things that will never happen in American politics. Grade on a curve. Even if it’s “center-right” ideologically, it’s near the leftmost edge of politics as they actually exist. If your point is that there isn’t enough full-bore left-wing politics in America, well, we knew that. There also aren’t enough full-bore left-wing _people_ in America to make it happen.
JCT
@Cermet:
This. Over and over.
There is no way on g_d’s green earth that the financial thugs will let our “credit rating” tank. No way.
Boy the repubs sure can bloviate.
joe from Lowell
This is the useful work that the lefties can do: create another pole. Talk about a long-term budget plan, and a 2012 budget – an affirmative contribution to the debate, to the left of what Obama just said, that will make his position look like it, not something between it and the Ryan plan, is the reasonable center. Doing so – talking about ideas and policy, not Obama-bashing – will 1) put your own policy ideas into the public consciousness, and 2) avoid weakening Obama’s position, so that he will be in a better position to hold the line.
Not a bunch of emo shit about how Obama isn’t good enough. Not a bunch of process blathering. Get out there and show the country what a real liberal-left budget plan looks like!
joe from Lowell
@nisl:
Boehner spent the 2010 elections talking about cutting $100 billion from the FY2011 budget. When the actual discussions started, he had dropped to $33 billion.
Bill Murray
@joe from Lowell: you mean like this one, that has gotten zero traction because sensible centrists don’t let anything to their left get heard?
http://schakowsky.house.gov/images/stories/1202_Schakowsky_Deficit_Reduction_Plan.pdf
joe from Lowell
@Bill Murray: No, I mean like that budget, that so many of you people never talk about in public, because you’d rather talk about how Barack Obama didn’t cure your grandmother’s gout.
Writing that budget is a great, but my comment wasn’t about writing a budget. It was about TALKING ABOUT IT.
joe from Lowell
@Bill Murray: Just an FYI, Bill: there are, I believe, five different threads on the subject of Obama’s budget speech.
Yours is the very first comment in which anyone mentioned Jan’s budget, and you only did so because I begged you.
However, if you want to see people whine like fanbelts about Obama not being good enough, I could probably find you 200 comments from the last hour alone.
Get the difference?
The Raven
@joe from Lowell: “This is the useful work that the lefties can do: create another pole.”
We’ve been so thoroughly marginalized, partly through the efforts of your faction, that no-one pays attention to us any more. The Democratic leadership would have to make some space for views from the left, and you know about how sympathetic they are.
Besides, after all the abuse you’ve heaped on us, why would we do anything for you?
gwangung
Progressives have been marginalized by not being able to marshall a large enough electoral vote. You have the vote, you don’t get marginalized. If you don’t have voters, you get marginalized.
The upshot is that a lot more care and feeding should be directed to voters, as opposed to politicians.
virag
the long march 2012 edition has begun. the entertainment will be watching obama’s political operation reel in small segments of democratic voters one after another with speech after speech like this one.
Bill Arnold
@joe from Lowell:
This:
I’ve been believing for the past year that BObama has been practically begging the left (such as it is in the U.S.) to do this, in any ways that don’t self-cannibalize the Democratic vote.
Another Bob
I admit that I jumped the gun and perhaps got prematurely fed-up with Obama. It’s been the absence of a message like today’s speech, an absence of a unified message among the larger Democratic Party, that’s left the Republicans to spread their bullshit without much opposition. Maybe it’s eleventy-dimension chess after all, I don’t know, but I still think they’d be better served by keeping up more consistent pressure like this against the Republicans, and I hope they do from now on.
Assuming for now that they’re able to translate this speech into solid policy — not a trivial task, for sure — and deliver a decisive smack-down to Republican poseurs like Ryan, I’m happy to admit that I was wrong. At the same time, I also think that there’s nothing wrong with sincere criticism since I wouldn’t want to be part of a zombie army like the Republicans have. Maybe it’s a political advantage for them, but I despise their insincerity and their willingness to lie and propagandize. Honest criticism is fine, but honesty also involves fairness and perspective and occasionally admitting when you’re wrong.
catclub
@Gregory: I so wished that when the republicans were seething that the interviewer had asked: “So, you don’t have any substantive criticisms of the speech, then?”
I can dream.
LosGatosCA
Did not watch the speech – Giants beat Dodgers 4-3 – but Teabagging Republicans seething is excellent in my book. Tax cuts expiring, sounds very excellent.