Here is a post from the Commissar about the entire Dean thing we have been prattling on about endlessly that is bound to start a flame war:
Of course Dean should go. Because his presence at DNC is bad for the Republican Party. That’s right, Dean as DNC Chair is bad for the Republican Party.
Because his stupidity and over-the-top rhetoric significantly helps the religious right wing extremists keep their hold on the GOP. Thoughtful Republicans (while Billmon might call that an oxymoron) can’t get anywhere; any intra-party challenge or debate is suppressed with the specter of Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, etc. Many Dems have fallen into the trap of believing their own advertising, i.e. “All Republicans are evil, stupid, irrational, Creationist, bigoted, extremists.” On that unquestioned assumption, it never occurs to them that sixty million voters simply cannot fit into their evil caricature. Instead, they supply the extremist Republican elements all the ammunition they need to keep hold of the GOP.
I have my own personal bets on who is going to go most explosive in the comments. Consider this my weekend gift to you all.
metalgrid
One can only wish that the two parties get so polarized into the fascist/socialist archetypes that the libertarian leaning wings of both parties split off and form their own or join the LP and help water it down and make it more palatable to the masses.
Or we could have something completely different..
Tim F
Like I’ve said, the GOP hardly needs an excuse to go batshit over something. If it’s not Dean then it’ll be some other thing.
Anyhow, this Dean-mania fits in perfectly with GOP efforts to drum up outrage over Daschle, Pelosi and Reid. Does anybody really believe that it matters who’s in charge? If they try and drum up hysteria over a straight-shooting red-stater like Reid then it hardly matters who we put in the top spot at DNC.
Steven
I actually there is something to this. To me, the moderates of each party are closer to each other’s psoitions than they are to the radicals of their own party. However, they fear the other sides radicals more than their own, so they can’t join with the other centrists to effect any change. This locks the parties into the radical positions and gives the radicals more power than they really deserve.. It is unfortunate that a third party is so difficult to establish in this country, because moderate Ds and Rs belong together, not with their respective radicals.
Darrell
If they try and drum up hysteria over a straight-shooting red-stater like Reid then it hardly matters who we put in the top spot at DNC
Yes of course, Reid’s lowlife insult to President Bush, calling him “a loser” has nothing to do with Republican criticism, right? Or Reid blathering about how Bush “got us into an intractable war in Iraq”.. yeah, Bush got us into Iraq all by his lonesome, along with the vote of virtually every Democratic Senator. Calling Clarence Thomas an “embarrassment” was a real class act by Reid as well
But in Dem fantasyland, Reid is just an innocent ‘straight shooter’ being savaged ever so unfairly by those eevil Republicans who are trying to destroy the country
JoshA
The religious right wing gained their control over the Republican party while Terry McAuliffe was chair of the Democratic Party. McAuliffe’s idea of a brave Democratic platform was, after Republicans advocated cutting taxes by 1.65 trillion dollars, was advocating only a 1.15 trillion dollar cut. Yet, the Republican Party grew increasingly in the thrall of the radical right during this time.
So I guess I don’t really see a connection with who’s the DNC chair and the control the religious right has over the GOP. In fact, the reverse is more true: the reason Dean is DNC chair is because we were tired of being called Satanist traitors by the right and having our leaders respond “thank you sir, may I have another?”
From 1994 on, that was basically the pattern: Republican rhetoric about Democrats gets harsher and harsher, and Democrats become more and more apologetic and meek. First, Clinton approves a watered-down version of the Republican agenda (Welfare Reform, Effective Death Penalty Act, etc). As for Daschle, I think the worst thing he’d ever say about Republicans is that he was “disappointed” in them. Clinton was impeached, and Frist broke tradition to campaign against Daschle. Democrats—the voters and activists, not the politicians—finally got sick of it, and pushed Dean in over the objection of the party establishment, which had proven itself only capable of groveling and losing.
Also, if Hillary is the “we can’t talk to this person” crowd for Republicans, I just don’t know what to say. Joint appearance with Newt? Complimenting Roger Ailes of Fox News? Voting for the Iraq War? Having, as one of her signature issues, trying to reduce the number of abortions in America? Yes, she made the remark about the rightwing trying to destroy her husband. Clearly she was, indeed, in denial over his affairs. As for her speech recently—where she said that this Administration has lied and centralized power—um, its not like that’s news.
Nash
I have my own personal bets on who is going to go most explosive in the comments. Consider this my weekend gift to you all.
Major LOL, John.
I’m in the lotus position now, palms upright on my knees. Ommmmmm.
The Disenfrachised Voter
“All Republicans are evil, stupid, irrational, Creationist, bigoted, extremists.”
Every single Bush voter falls into either the irrational or extremist category if you ask me. I’d say you were just irrational because you couldn’t stand Kerry so much John, so you aren’t an extremist. But yea, every single Bush voter does fall in one of those categories.
JG
‘yeah, Bush got us into Iraq all by his lonesome, along with the vote of virtually every Democratic Senator.’
Bush’s war. Congress voted based on the case the president presented.
The Disenfrachised Voter
Oh and Darrell, Reid was right. Bush is a loser. I’m sorry that the truth hurts.
The Disenfrachised Voter
“Congress voted based on the case the president presented.”
Congress did not vote to authorize the war, they voted to give the President the authority to choose to do so if he thought it was necessary.
Big difference there, though the dbags in the senate never should have given that authority to the monkey in the white house.
Kimmitt
That’s really not sensible; if there are Republican moderates who were willing to leave the Party over something, their decision is not going to be affected by criticism of the Republican Party.
M. Scott Eiland
Well, I don’t know about “explosive,” but if the coin of the realm is “cartoonlike moonbat rhetoric in this thread” then “The Disenfranchised Voter” is our very own Donald Trump.
Compuglobalhypermeganet
Oh and Darrell, Reid was right. Bush is a loser. I’m sorry that the truth hurts.
One of the reasons I like this blog is you can say whatever you want, no matter how silly. On Kos, such heresy to the Party Line would get your account cancelled in a heartbeat (speaking from experience), because liberals can’t brook dissent.
Here, John just smiles, pats you on your head, and reminds you to look at the scoreboard. Yeah, right, Bush is a loser…just like the New England Patriots are losers.
The Disenfrachised Voter
Nice Ad hominem, Scott.
Oh and by the way I’m a libertarian, shithead.
Rick
That’s not contradictory, sad to say, as one who’s rolled some dollars the LP’s way.
Cordially…
Darrell
“All Republicans are evil, stupid, irrational, Creationist, bigoted, extremists.”
Every single Bush voter falls into either the irrational or extremist category if you ask me. I’d say you were just irrational because you couldn’t stand Kerry so much John, so you aren’t an extremist. But yea, every single Bush voter does fall in one of those categories.
All hail the intellectual depth of the left! I hope you booger-eating kooks, like your hero Howard Dean, continue to scream and shout to the world exactly how you really feel. Take your Bush=Hitler signs with you and make sure you remind every single person you see who voted for Bush that they are a “stupid bigoted extremist”. Now get after it.. time’s a waste’n
Compuglobalhypermeganet
A libertarian thinks John’s “irrational’ for not liking Kerry? Whirrrrrrrrr… DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT COMPUTE!
SeesThroughIt
“moderate Ds and Rs belong together, not with their respective radicals”
Good glaven, yes! I long for the day when moderates and independents band together and say, “Fuck you, Republicans. Fuck you, Democrats. We’re going to go work on making things better and actually solving some problems. But you guys can feel free to stay where you are and keep squabbling.”
Mr Furious
I’ve been mulling over this Dean thing all week…
I am a big Howard Dean fan. Big. I still voted for him in my March primary just to make a point. He is the only reason I ever gave money or time to a political party/cause. Check that–Bush is probably the actual reason/motivation, but Dean was the spark and the benificiary.
Everybody getting their panties in a bunch over this stuff is a fool, a jackass or a hypocrit. Shit far worse than what Dean said flies from the mouths of the likes of Rush and Hannity every single day. Mehlman and Gillespie aren’t exactly choir boys either. The problem everyone has is that they’re not used to hearing this from a prominant Democrat.
Is Party Chair as attack dog a good idea? Maybe not. We’ll see. But that’s not the prmary reason Dean is wearing that hat anyway. He is a grassroots guy. He is firing up the base. That stuff is red meat, and frankly he’s right. If you think back, he’s proven correct most of the time after getting raked over the coals for something he said.
Yeah, he could be a little smarter and tighter wiith his message. It’s a matter of fine-tuning to me not the substance of the message. Dean is nearl always right on the substance. I’m willing to let him grow into the job, it’s a long way til Election Day.
The Disenfrachised Voter
“Take your Bush=Hitler signs”
Bush equals Hitler? Are you kidding me?! Hitler was much smarter.
“A libertarian thinks John’s “irrational’ for not liking Kerry? Whirrrrrrrrr… DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT COMPUTE!”
Then you obviously don’t understand the political compass. Bush is an extremely authoritarian leader. It is against my libertarian ideals to ever vote for someone as authoritarian as Bush. I voted against Bush more than I voted for Kerry.
M. Scott Eiland
“Oh and by the way I’m a libertarian”
Which goes a long way towards explaining why–though I have sympathies towards many libertarian ideals–I don’t vote that way.
KC
Anyone hear about the blowup in the House Judiciary Committee today? I just heard a brief blurb on the radio, but it sounds like Sensenbrenner got pissed off and tried to shut off microphones or something. Apparently, he did not like the testimony about the Patriot Act. From the clip I heard of the hearing, it sounded bad. Anyone know about this?
ppgaz
Chuckle! I am no insider to the machinations of the innder circle of the secret handshake to Dean’s world, but this strikes me as hilarious, and perfect.
If I were Dean, this is exactly the sort of thing I’d have predicted, and hoped for.
While we play InternetChurnmeisters out here, the fact is that the big powerful cheeses at the tops of these parties are a bunch of mean, nasty powersnatchers who play mean nasty games and smile at the rest of us. Donkey or elephant, same thing.
I see Dean as the ultimate donkey iconoclast in this little morality play.
All is going according to plan. Joe Biden’s hair transplants are falling out as we speak. Joe Lieberman’s fake smile is cracking around the edges and about to shatter his face into a thousand pieces.
I’m loving it.
JPS
The Disenfranchised Voter:
“I voted against Bush more than I voted for Kerry.”
But you did vote.
So you’re not disenfranchised, are you?
Bob
Dean could say “Good Morning” and the media would find something to criticize or take out of context. Think of all the press Dean has gotten while the Downing Street Memo is actively ignored. Peter Dale Scott’s idea of the negative template sure fits on the media. If the media reports it, it’s probably not news. If they avoid it, it probably is.
In 1994 Newt Gingrich made a speech saying, pretty much, that the Democrats were responsible for Susan Smith drowning her two babies into a lake and that in order to stop the further sinking of America’s morals, everyone should vote Republican.
So what’s the demographic breakdown of Republican party membership? How many are white and Christian? Seventy percent?
The Democrats are going to do some damage in 2006 and it won’t be because of Dean. It will be because of Bush.
Darrell
In 1994 Newt Gingrich made a speech saying, pretty much, that the Democrats were responsible for Susan Smith drowning her two babies into a lake and that in order to stop the further sinking of America’s morals, everyone should vote Republican
I agree Bob, that was a bad one, almost as bad as Bill Clinton trying to blame the Oklahoma city bombings on Republicans
ppgaz
One thing we can count on from you, Darrel … if the GOP does something that stinks, and turns it into an art form, they’ll also try to find examples of someone else doing it so that they can point to it and deflect attention from themselves.
The current GOP power structure is riding on a foamy wave of anti-Librulism. Demonize those damned libruls. Hell, everybody knows they caused West Nile Disease.
Of course, if Republican winking at widespread hatred for “gummint” is rationally linked to domestic terrorism, then that’s an opportunity to point to the other side and declare “I, the Pot, declare you, the kettle, to be black!”
Rational linking, we must hasten to add, is not establishment of causality, as we all know. Of course, that’s never stopped Republicans from making the leap anyway.
A large part (okay, maybe eighteen percent) of what is wrong with the GOP could be fixed by giving it a sense of irony. Or a sense of shame.
Libertine
I like Dean and his firebrand populism. I hope he stays on board as Chair of the DNC.
But…
I completely disagree with what he said. He should have a muzzle put on him and just stick to organizing the party and raising money.
Howard…Shhhhhhh!!!
Bob
Darrell, First off, I don’t recall Bill Clinton ever blaming OKC on Republicans. What was McVeigh’s political registration? Did Clinton say that Republicans’ immorality was responsible for McVeigh and company blowing up the federal building?
We do know that Susan Smith’s step-father, the one who molested her and prepared her for parenting, was a minor figure in the South Carolina Republican Party. So not all Republicans in South Carolina were responsible for Susan Smith drowning her babies. Just one party muckitymuck had a hand in it.
We also know that Mary Jane whateverhernamewas, who had two children by her grammar school student and recently, after getting out of prison for same, has married him, was the daughter of a right-wing Republican congressman from Orange County, CA. And her brother worked for both Bushes.
Which is not to say that all Republicans are child molesters. Just certain ones.
By the way, while we’re on the topic of moral absolutists who are vile hypocrites, has anyone from the White House come forward with more info on Gannon/Guckert’s sleepovers?
And what did Dean say about Republicans that was so bad?
Jeff
Bob, he didn’t blame it on Republicans per se, he kind of implied that part of it was due to right-wing talk radio.
It didn’t happen exactly as Darrell said it, but it was still a stupid thing for Clinton to say.
And if you want one stupid thing that Dean said, it’s that most–or a lot, or whatever–Republicans have never done an honest days work in their life.
That’s kind of ironic, since i’m in my office in Philly working (full disclosure: working AND obviously tripping through the blogosphere) on a beautiful Saturday morning in the summer while my fiance, parents, and future-in-laws are in Ocean City, Maryland.
Full disclosure again: I’ll be leaving to join them in about two hours, so it’s not all bad.
The Disenfrachised Voter
Here JPS, just for you…
Disenfranchise:
To deprive of a privilege, an immunity, or a right of citizenship
ppgaz
“I like him, but I disagree with what he said.”
Politicians who just blurt out the truth as they see it always piss off lots of people. I call it the “Goldwater syndrome.”
Many of the chagrined are going to be his own partymates. The mealy-mouthed always run away from the truth … that’s how they slithered their way into power in the first place.
Ignore the hissing snakes and the talking radioheads and the cowards in the Democratic Party.
If Bill Frist, the GODDAM SENATE MAJORITY LEADER — not some obscure nutball running for state legislator — can talk as if Democrats are out to get “christians,” then Howard Dean can call the Republicans on this crap every day and every night from now until Hell freezes over.
And any Democrat who cringes from the fight needs to grow a pair and stand up.
ppgaz
“I have my own personal bets on who is going to go most explosive in the comments. Consider this my weekend gift to you all.”
Really, John, you have some of the best content in the blogosphere.
Do you actually think that you need to troll your own readers?
That’s our job ;-)
ppgaz
From a small Texas publication, three years ago:
The Dallas Morning News reported that one of the most popular bumper stickers at the Republican state convention this summer read, “G.O.P.: God’s Official Party”
Kimmitt
Cheney on Dean:
Nash
Well, ppgaz, the meme officially sanctioned by Balloon Juice and millions of other “I’m shocked” relativists is that unless you can quote “A Republican Leader” (defined specifically as Ed Gillespie, Ken Mehlman or George Bush, excludes Dick Cheney who is excused to say anything he wishes) saying that all Democrats sleep with their siblings, it’s just not fair to say that Republicans have long been going with a message every bit as offensive to Democrats as Howard Dean’s is claimed to be to Republicans.
I call it the Hannity “out” clause. Having Hannity call 58 million citizens “un-American” somehow does not rise to the offense level of Howard Dean’s saying Republicans are a party of white Christians. 3-4 national election cycles full to the brim with bumper stickers, ads, speeches, push polls, TV appearances, TV hosts and pundits all saying that Democrats are traitors isn’t as bad as Howard Dean calling Republicans lazy because all those offensive things didn’t come straight out of Ed Gillespie’s mouth.
It’s all because Dean is an official rep of his party and Hannity merely a reimbursed, but unofficial, rep for the other, or so they explain. Somehow, they think the American voter makes a fine distinction between the words of Dean and the words of Hannity. Somehow, they think their relativism is a principled position.
Meme step 2 is to tell Democrats you are telling them this out of the goodness of your own heart or they are just going to keep losing elections. As if they were interested in the other party ever winning another election.
yes, Kimmitt, crickets is what I’m hearing.
John Cole
Iam niether shocked by anything Dean said nor a relativist- I still continue to see what was so offensive about calling a party that is predominantly white and Christian in a predominantly white and Christian country “white and Christian.”
I just thought it was politically stupid, because I knew how it would be used against him. I wasn’t wrong.
Nash
I assume you are missing a negation here?
I still continue to see what was so offensive
In another of your threads, I went on at length (as if that adds any weight!) as to why I feel that having it “used against him” was in total a good thing (for Democrats).
I agree with you. It was and will be used against him. I totally reject that this is not good for Democrats as a whole and that it doesn’t end up being “politically smart.”
I don’t even know that it was intentional–I think he is that unscripted and “apolitic”. But, the actual “returns” suggest to me that while his message pisses off those people who would vote for Republicans anyway , they don’t make Republicans out of independents, all hurt-feeling claims in blogs and on Fox News to the contrary.
No, I can’t prove it. But Sean Hannity can’t prove the converse, either, can he?
Nash
In addition to Fox News, I should have added any of the rest of the MSM that you would care to name.
Kimmitt
Nash, you aren’t being fair to Mr. Cole. His thesis is pretty clear.
Nash
What am I missing, Kimmitt?
Is he not saying:
1. Dean didn’t say anything more out-of-line than has been expressed by others from the other party, but
2. It gets Dean (and Democrats) a lot of negative attention, and
3. It’s a huge political mistake because of this?
Am I not agreeing with 1, mostly with 2 and disputing 3? Am I not saying that no one has bothered to prove 3?
Or is that not an accurate representation of the debate?
Nash
Why are people so willing to accept the premise that so-called independents or moderates or undecideds are swayed against a party which uses heated, offensive rhetoric?
It is, in spite of what you maintain, counterintuitive. It has been consistently shown that whereas people say they dislike negative advertising, they are not influenced against a candidate who uses
it. Do we really think the predominance of negative advertising in campaigns is an accident?
I’m suggesting that as long as he is not the candidate himself, Howard Dean is a walking, talking negative ad operating effectively against Republicans. I’m not willing to accept the conventional wisdom sight unseen that this is a political mistake.