Rather than search the web for new Plame stories, I offer you this from yesterday’s Cleland thread:
Democrats just can’t take their own medicine. For 5 years they have called Bush Hitler, Chimp, Shrub and who knows what else. NAACP ads depicted Bush as responsible for an African American being chained and dragged from a pick-up truck. Condoleeza Rice is Aunt Jemima, Colen Powell is Uncle Tom and the Vice President…you don’t want to know. Howard Dean “hates” Republicans, and John Edwards proclaimed that if Kerry is elected Christopher Reeves would’nt have had to die. They, and their enablers in the media, publish false douments about Bush’s National Guard service (a story CBS admitted to be working on for five years!), call Bush a liar for over a year by correctly stating that Saddam was pursuing the purchase of Yellowcake in Africa and carried the story of Abu Gharaib on the front page of the NY Times for ever and ever.
Oh, wait, I forgot HALLIBURTN, HALLIBURTON and HALLIBURTON.
Then they suddenly take up righteous indignation over a Georgia Senatorial Campaign?
Have at each other.
*** Update ***
I should probably add, the reason I do this is so you have a place to unload on each other. I have received several complaints (and I am not singling people out, as I don’t read all the comments- I try, really) about personal attacks and unnecessary harshness in the comments, and I don’t want to be in the habit of policing the comments section, yet I don’t want to drive people away.
So, from now on, flame away in the designated zones, but try to keep it polite and somewhat pleasant in the other comments sections. If you are in another thread, and want to be rude or find it impossible to control yourselves, come to the designated zone, write your piece, and then link to it in the other thread. People can then ignore it and still participate in the comments.
Another Jeff
Well, this will no doubt get very interesting, but it’s gonna be no different than when my dad and I argue over who was the greatest QB ever, Joe Montana (my choice) or Johnny Unitas (his).
Granted, my father and I don’t call each other trolls and chickenhawks (he did a tour in Korea, two tours in Vietnam, and was a Philly cop for 25 yrs, so that wouldn’t be wise on my part. I was with the Philly PD for six year, no military though, so his resume from a “put my balls on the line” perspective wins hands down).
Anyhoo, I don’t give any ground on Montana, he doesn’t give any ground on Unitas, and even though neither one of us will change the others mind, we still argue about it at least once a year during football season. It usually ends when either my mom or my fiance (depending on which house we’re at) tells us to both shut-up and dinners ready.
I do think there is a rather naive view of some on the left that their problems all revolve around Democrats being too darn nice. Whoever made the above highlighted comments mentions some of the many examples why that’s bunk.
DougJ
I’m going to make this simple for the liberals: I don’t care how many limbs you lost in battle or how many Purple Hearts and Silver Crosses you “won”, if you don’t support our leaders when we are at war with perhaps the most treacherous enemy we have ever faced — fundamentalist Islamic terrorists — then you are no patriot. I don’t know how I can say it any more plainly.
demimondian
Hey, John, let’s talk about ice cream flavors. I think DougJ needs help picking dessert.
(Remember, Doug, that ice cream, like cookies, is a sometimes food.)
db
I went to Rick’s site to view the commercial and recall having seen this many, many times while I was in GA.
Was Cleland’s patriotism being questioned in THIS ad? I THIS ad alone and not in any context, no. Democrats can find ways that the ad alone did just as Repubs could find ways that single DNC ads implied W’s lack of patriotism.
But the context is important. I am sick of the Repubs being the only ones that feel they are entitled to wrap themselves in the American flag and rip any Democrats who do the same because their is absolutely no way a Democrat can love this country as much as they do.
But to cut to it, although Chambliss did not say this, I was absolutely disgusted by those surrogates of Chambliss running around claiming that his injuries really weren’t that bad – and even more disgusting that his wounds were either because of stupidity or self-inflicted. Kerry gets shrapnel – “yeah, but how much shrapnel was it and was it really that painful?” For Christ’s sake.
But then again, this is politics. And if Dems aren’t going to fight fire with fire by attackingtheir opponents strenghts much like the Repubs have learned to master, then they need to go back to Machiavelli 101.
Another Jeff
He lost three fucking limbs. who said his wounds “weren’t that bad”?
Emma Zahn
DougJ
So you are basically saying that if the the main leader says we should follow him over a cliff like good little lemmings but a sub-leader says something like, hey wait a minute, let’s think about this a minute, then we should not only go over the cliff but trample the sub-leader on the way over?
What a great attitude — for a lemming.
…
db
“I’m going to make this simple for the liberals: I don’t care how many limbs you lost in battle or how many Purple Hearts and Silver Crosses you “won”, if you don’t support our leaders when we are at war with perhaps the most treacherous enemy we have ever faced—fundamentalist Islamic terrorists—then you are no patriot. I don’t know how I can say it any more plainly.”
My granddad, who walks with a limp because of a grenade that inverted his leg during WWII, tells me frequently that he and his friends never talk about politics, religion, or battle tactics. Politics? He hated and still hates FDR to this day for the way he handled our war on fascism. And in your book he his not a patriot for this?
db
Jeff,
I can look it up for you if you like or you can take my word. I believe it was Ann Coulter who saw say that Cleland shouldn’t have received medals for having fallen out of a helicopter and onto a grenade.
So I’m sorry, she did not say that the wounds were “that bad”. Just that the condition under which he received those wounds weren’t that bad (i.e., it was an accident and not in the heat of battle).
db
Okay, because I had to make sure on this:
http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=42941
In here is a little ditty about Coulter’s comments; I am still looking for the column.
demimondian
DougJ — Then again, I think this might be a near-perfect ice cream flavor for you to try.
Larry Germack
I’m starting to believe that one of the greatest resources the Democrats have are right wing blogs. As the conservative tide ebbs and rolls back into the sea, it is fun to look at all the exotic creatures flopping about on the beach. I mean, this reactionary true believer stuff might have been all the rage a couple of years back, but most of these righty types are starting to look as out of place as the hippies did in 1985. Times change, styles change, and politics always changes. And as anyone aware of the exponential ratings decline at Fox “News,” the right is becoming passe.
By the way, if anyone doubts my contention about the fading glory of the so-called conservative movement, check out the Kennebunkport Cocaine Cowboy’s 42% Approval rating in the latest AP/Ipsos Poll.
Another Jeff
db, i’m aware of Coulter’s comments, but she’s a far-right pundit (and a kook). I don’t know that she qualifies as a Chambliss surrogate.
But regardless, this is why i said we can go back and forth on this all day. I remember some Democratic “surrogates” back in 1992 questioning the actions of George Bush Sr during WWII because he parachuted to safety over the Pacific but all of his other crew members died.
Like you i don’t remember the specifics so i’ll have to google.
katinula
db,
It was Ann Coulter. I try not attribute her views to a majority on the right, but the fact is that she is extremely popular and her books sell for a reason. She dedicated a whole column to the stupidity of Max Cleland and how he got his wounds.
I think Democrats shouldn’t be so damn sensitive when it comes to politics, but I also think no man or woman’s service records should EVER be used as ammunition in a negative way. I wonder how many purple heart records we could look up where the actions could now be seen as less than heroic. To summarize, lack of service or dodging service (Clinton, Bush, Cheney) is fair game, but not someone’s service. Just imagine someone did that to the vets coming home from Iraq with their medals.
But it is no coincidence that it is always Democratic verterans whose service gets called into question, with the exception of McCain, who was up against Bush. McCain, Gore, Kerry…a list of distinguished veterans whose service was called into question. Say what you will about CBS, but the fact remains that Bush got a pass and everyone knows it. Its disgraceful to do that to anyone’s service record.
PS: DougJ, you need to up the shock treatments or wake and and smell the AMERICIA coffee.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Cleland received medals for the operation he was on right before the accident with the grenade.
Is this also a good place to point out that it’s hard to see why or how Saddam was pursuing yellowcake in Africa when our own search of Iraq turns up no evidence of any such quest, nor any nuclear program that could use the yellowcake even if it had dropped out of the sky as a gift from space aliens.
db
Jeff,
I do recall the George Sr comments. I also recall comments from both right and left about McCain (i.e., “Do we want a leader who was stupid enough to get shot down by a Third-World country?”).
I will say that having been in GA during a significant portion of that campaign, I heard the words published by Coulter being talked about way before she picked up on it. Nothing in print – just people talking.
If people are going to cry about it, then we need to put limits about what people can say about elected officials, which I am adamantly opposed to. So I think Dems need to stop whining (because of the hypocrisy you point out with reference to George Sr) and just bring a bigger gun to the table.
Another Jeff
db, I think we agree.
On that note, for those of you that think Democrats have been playing too nice and wanna get a taste of “Down and Dirty Politics, 101”, i’ll extend an open invitation.
This won’t help you for the 2006 midterms, but it will for 2008. Here in Philly, in November of 2007, we’re gonna have a mayoral election. You can come up for the weeks leading up to the election, and election day itself, and hang out with Democratic powerbrokers like Johnny Doc, Vince Fumo, and Bob Brady. If, after that, you don’t know how to get down and dirty and stop playing by Marques of Queensberry rules, I’ll at least buy you a case of Yuengling and a few cheesesteaks from Geno’s for your trouble.
ppGaz
Or more often.
You are wrong on all counts. Islamic terror is not the most treacherous enemy we have ever faced. You might want to check the casualty figures for WWII. I think we’d have to endure AlQaeda for about ten thousand more years to catch up.
As for your idea of patriotism, fuck you. You stink. You’re no patriot, you’re a toadie. In a civil war, I’d shoot you in a second. I’m a dead shot, by the way. I’ll make sure you feel the sting of real patriotism.
LBNL, level with us, Dougie: Are you putting on this hillbilly persona, or is that really you?
RW
Stepping over the testosterone derived from one’s keyboard (wow, that was childish)…
People see things differently and you appear to be a reasonable guy, so I can say “you have a point” and hope that you can realize that there are those who get just as sick of folks from “your” side who claim (fill-in-the-blank) about “them”. And so it goes. Isn’t it always best to simply ignore the name-calling rants from the abyss (see the above comment for a good example) and focus on debating the important stuff instead of trying to demonize the other side? Perhaps had Cleland not tried to demonize Chambliss (or, anyone else who dared to question his judgment – NOT HIS PATRIOTISM) he would’ve done better than 46%.
Tractarian
That one paragraph was more disgusting and offensive than all the political attack ads on Cleland, Kerry, McCain, and Bush put together.
Another Jeff
I don’t know what’s worse, that Doug says that stuff, or that you guys bite on it every time.
Bernard Yomtov
I remember some Democratic “surrogates” back in 1992 questioning the actions of George Bush Sr during WWII because he parachuted to safety over the Pacific but all of his other crew members died.
There were some comments along that line, but I don’t think they were made by any serious participants in the campaign, surrogates or not.
Note that Dukakis harshly denounced this attack on Bush, and it stopped. The whole thing was minor and only lasted a day or two.
ppGaz
I don’t know what’s worse: That we have a good old flame war, or that some people mistake it for “biting” on something.
However, more to the point, the Doug exchange is an exercise in drawing a line. Doug thinks he can throw down a line on “patriotism.” I prefer to come along and take my rake and obliterate his line.
It’s a flame thread, you see. Misguided volunteer firemen should go play in another thread.
To play whack-a-mole (John’s phrase), you need a mole.
Doug, where are you?
RW
Good point.
If you’ll further note, the Bush 41 campaign and the GOP didn’t run around for years on end claiming that his patriotism had been questioned and have newspaper articles pass it along as if it were true. The Cleland brouhaha was created by the Cleland campaign, pushed to the forefront by the DNC (I remember Hillary jumping in, as well) and perpetuated TODAY by Cleland, his supporters and the press (redundant, I know).
With the divide in the nation, with each side seeing one thing while the other sees something else entirely, we’re not going ot have very many “over in a day or two” instances. Politics comes first.
Andrei
John Cole says:
So wait, it’s ok for you to call a guy like George Galloway a lying, putrid, sack of shit because, well… you obviously think he is, but it’s not ok for me to call Stormy a moron because well, I obviously think she is.
Got it. Your blog. Your rules. As hypocritical as they might be.
As far as DougJ goes everyone, it’s obviously someone who using Balloon-Juice to make fun of both camps: those that tow the rightwing party-line line, and those that responsed to those that tow the rightwing party line. Andy Kaufman anyone? Tony Clifton? I personally enjoy the posts, so please keep feeding the freakshow.
Reid
“come to the designated zone, write your piece, and then link to it in the other thread”
Let me know how this experiment in herding cats goes. I wouldn’t be too optimistic.
Stormy70
The Dark side beckons, Andrei. LOL
demimondian
No, Andrei. The reason that John has the right to call George Galloway a lying putrid sack of shit is that he is, demonstrably, a liar (about the purpose to which the money in Maryam’s Fund wa sput), putrid (a vile anti-Semite), and a sack of shit (see above). I don’t see a flame in a simple statement of unpleasant fact.
Now, DougJ — I think he’s a troglodyte who’s not smart enough to fish for bass with a spoon — but, in this thread…he’s right at home.
John Cole
Andrei- Keep defending Galloway all you want, it is falling on deaf ears, here.
And I am sorry you can not distinguish between me stating something in a blog post (my blog, after all, I pay for the bandwidth), and people jusr generally being jerks to each other in the comments.
If I, for example, stated in the comments section that ‘Andrei is a foolish lout who continues to disgrace himself by defending George Galloway, a mouthpiece for torturers and tyrants the world over,’ that would be one thing. But I havem’t, and I won’t.
I may slip up from time to time and say something nasty, but I generally try to play nice.
ppGaz
Well, I am confessed grenade-thrower, John :-) And I think you applied the label with the addendum “like me”, so …
I did not miss the “complaints” reference in the update, nor the link to a password dialogue. Like someone else just said, it’s your blog, we serve at your pleasure.
That said … let me say, I have no problem with anyone who wants to “complain” about my posts making the complaint directly to me, or to having the complaint passed along to me. Everything is negotiable, and there are two sides to every story. I’m perfectly fine with working out all differences, or at least making the effort.
But we all have lines that we won’t see crossed without a fight. I won’t have my patriotism impeached without a fight, for example. Nobody on the board owns patriotism. That sort of thing.
LBNL, there’s the f-word. As one who uses it frequently, let me say, if there were a rule against it, and the rule were applied even-handedly, and if you didn’t use it yourself, I would be fine with abstaining from ever using it. If that’s a problem; I’m just saying. My wife lets me use it, but only when she is winning the argument, which is most of the time.
Andrei
The point of my comment is that you reap what you sow. You, Mr. Cole, rant and flame away in your blog to the point that it allows the rest of us to think that its probably ok if we do the same. The Galloway pointer was not to defend Galloway, it was to point out that you yourself set the example for the behavior many of us in the bleachers adhere to.
I even admitted, your blog, your rules. You want to rant and flame away in your blog, obviously you pay the bills so go ahead amd do so while asking us not follow your lead. But to say:
Is just not accurate. IMHO. You are far more nasty than you are nice. Personally, I don’t care if you are nasty. I find many of your comments on certain topics to be pretty accurate. I just found the request to have us live by a different standard a bit comical.
John Cole
Andrei- Again, there is a difference between me flaming at some public figure in the post, and me calling you every seven dirty word George Carlin can’t say on tv.
And even then, I slip up- I remember a post where I directly called Oliver Willis an asshole.
At any rate, I don;t want you to play by different rules, I just want you to try to do what I do- dial it back a notch when dealing with the other commenters. Only after I get fed up to (holding may hand above my head) do I unload. And, at any rate, for now I am going to try to provide a forum to do that. This one.
PPGAZ- as a general rule, I don’t care about language, but I know others do so I try to reign it in. I still drop an f-bomb and other colorful language from time to time.
Andrei
I guess you missed the exchange where Stormy cited the Senate report to make a statement of fact that Valerie Plame sent her husband to Niger, and when I presented the facts to her, she backpedaled her wording in an attempt to keep the same position even when proven wrong using her own source.
In my book, that simple statement of fact and her unwillingngess to acknowledge it makes her a moron. “Demonstrably” even.
Hmmm…. something about “cuts both ways” seems to come to mind here.
And before I forget:
Well, you just did, sort of. And honestly, I couldn’t care. What you, Stormy, Rick and others may think of me is not something I lose I sleep over whatsoever.
Andrei
Noted. And point taken.
I will do so.
Bernard Yomtov
True, because, you see, Bush’s patriotism wasn’t questioned. A few nuts questioned his bravery and were quickly squelched by Dukakis campaign. Nobody ran pictures of Bush next to Tojo or Hirohito.
The attacks on Cleland were sponsored and run by the Chambliss campaign. I know it’s hard to accept that Republicans would ever do anything underhanded, but it’s true.
Andrew J. Lazarus
You guys still don’t realize DougJ is a spoof? Hell, he probably doesn’t pass the Turing test.
ppGaz
I don’t think she’s a moron. I find arguing with her to be typical of what men generally refer to as “arguing with a woman.”
Rule Number One: The woman is always right.
Rule Number Two: See Rule Number One.
This protocol works quite well at my house. I haven’t won an argument since 1992.
Which is why I come here and let it all hang out, baby …
Stormy70
There you go, you now deserve Texas BBQ again. :)
Sojourner
Which is exactly the reason she needs to be slapped down. If she changes her gender, I have no problem with what she says.
Stormy70
We have all been a little excitable lately with all the Plame threads. Probably because the temps outside are in the 100s, and it makes everyone pissy. I like the idea of a flame thread, and reasonable debate in the other threads. If we get riled up, we can come here and rant and rave.
Example: If that cretin Maggie gets Kasyer voted off of Big Brother 6, then I will be hell to deal with after next Thursday. Fair warning to the peeps here.
ppGaz
Oh dear. I am withdrawing from this subthread. I think I see a large rolling pin being picked up down there in Grapevine ….
Discretion, as they say, the better part of valor.
[ ducks ]
ppGaz
An order of ribs, side of slaw, rolls and butter, and a Lone Star, please. For here.
DougJ
What I’ve noticed time and time again is that libruls are the ones who use foul language and engage in vituperative, ad hominem attacks. I guess that’s what 25 years of losing elections does to people.
ppGaz
“Go fuck yourself” — Dick Cheney
DougJ
Ppgaz, Big Time was well within his rights to say that. After hearing the Dems whine about Haliburton for three years you can hardly blame him.
I’m sick of the whining about Haliburton. Haliburton and Enron must be the most unfairly maligned corporations in US history.
ppGaz
You are the funny one! Everyone has the right to decide when they are ‘well within (their) rights’ to say anything, Dougie. Anything at all, any time. Ain’t it a great country?
As for Haliburton ….. where the fuck did that come from?
Are you just grabbing these things off flash cards as you go?
demimondian
Sojourner…
Help me here. Stormy is a woman — so if she changes her gender, she’ll be a man. In which case, there’s no person to whom the pronoun “she” could refer in the clause “I have no problem with what she says”.
Stormy70
{{Shudder}} I like being a chick, thank you very much. I did have five brothers who occassionally tried to slap me down, but I kicked their tushies. Well, until they were bigger than me. Then I would smack them, and run away screaming until it made them laugh. Men, so easy.
ppgaz – my rolling pin is made of marble. Lone Star is ok. I prefer mexican beer. Fried Okra with that order, sir?
I think Dick Cheney is sexy. All my girlfriends do too. All that quiet power.
DougJ
“I think Dick Cheney is sexy.”
My wife thinks so too. Sometimes it almost makes me jealous…
ppGaz
Goodbye, cruel world.
demimondian
Actually, the left-ventricular assist device that passes for Cheney’s heart isn’t really all the quiet. LVAD’s make a kind of permanent whine.
The reason you and your girlfriends think it’s quiet is that you can’t hear it above all the other whining from this administration.
Sojourner
On Planet Stormy, anything’s possible.
Knemon
Cheney is not sexy. That’s just gross, is what that is.
Sojourner
None of my female friends think he’s sexy. But then they’re not looking for a grandfather figure who will keep them safe from the big, bad, scary world.
Stormy70
He’s definitely not a grandfather figure, that would be Rummy.
Sojourner
Aren’t they about the same age?
Knemon
No, Rumsfeld is about 15 years older. Cheney just *looks* really old; I don’t think he’s much older, if at all, than Bush or the Clintons.
Sojourner
Apparently so.
RW
The only thing was attacked about Cleland by the Chambliss campaign was his judgment. I have the evidence (follow the links that John provides in this post. This cannot be disputed without someone claiming that their misguided inferences equates to fact. Quite a leap.