Andrew is back from the beach, and starts off on a dour note:
Hey, we’ve exploded the size of government, legitimized an insolvent nanny-state for a generation, guaranteed a huge future tax increase, missed an opportunity for seriously trying to move toward energy independence, and made the biggest intelligence error since Pearl Harbor. Not bad, eh? The emails on Frum’s blog are very telling about the mood of the conservative base. My own evolving view of what’s happening in Iraq is that there’s still a reasonable chance of a pretty depressingly illiberal constitution, folllowed by low-level civil war, policed in part by young Americans. Better than Saddam? You betcha. Better than a crumbling regime under Saddam’s sons during an Islamist upswing? Absolutely. But a long way from what many of us had hoped for.
And that is after a several month vacation.
SomeCallMeTim
I think this is the real issue – in what sense is it “better than Saddam” for American interests? Increasingly, people I read on the conservative side are saying something like, “If I’d known that this is how it would end, I wouldn’t have supported the war.” (See, e.g., Sebastian at ObiWi, “get off the bus” guy at NRO.) If it is really better for American interests, given all of the costs, then it was still worth supporting the war. Sullivan (as is his wont) is mis-describing what’s out there.
neil
My own evolving view of what’s happening in Iraq is that there’s still a reasonable chance of a pretty depressingly illiberal constitution, folllowed by low-level civil war, policed in part by young Americans. Better than Saddam? You betcha.
How could he possibly justify that? A sharia Iraq will surely be more hostile to the U.S. than Saddam was, more hostile to women and minorities, and probably even more openly abusive of human rights. I am not sure whether more innocent Iraqis are being tortured by the U.S. than they were by Saddam, but it is clear as day that more are being violently killed. Before, you couldn’t speak badly of the leader on the street without being rounded up; today, you can’t even go out on the street without being blown up.
I would much rather live in the old Iraq than the new Iraq, and anybody who says they wouldn’t is a Ralph Peters-esque liar.
Caroline
Andrew seems to be making the case that trading one evil for another is a good thing. Public stonings are better than rape rooms?
BinkyBoy
Rape is still legal under Sharia law, then that leads to the stoning of the woman.
Great set of laws, since it seems to be so popular, maybe George would like to consider it for America.
ape
for the 27,000 civilians who have died since the US invasion, this is not better than Saddam
StupidityRules
Don’t think there were any rape room laws when Saddam ruled. Now there will be laws that say that if you get raped then you get stoned to death. Obviously that’s better. As long as you know the law and follow it you won’t get punished. And women won’t get raped as long as they stay indoors and always wear a burka.
StupidityRules
Seems like sarcasm tags doesn’t work… and a SARCASM to my latest entry…
JoeTx
I can’t see how replacing a secular regime with a regime that will undoubtedly be more aligned with radical Islam can benefit our interests. Especially if they align with Iran, which looks more and more likely.
Saddams only ideology was to keep himself in power, not export terror to other parts of the world.
It would have been more believable to go after Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, where the Madrassa’s are turning out thousands of hate filled radicals. But they are “allies” of the United States, so nothing will be done!
TallDave
I still like Sully, but it’s sad to see he’s drinking the “sharia Iraq” Kool-aid. I wonder how many of those making that argument have compared Iraq’s constitution to Afghanistan’s? There are many different interpretations of sharia; not all endorse rape or stoning homosexuals or honor killings. Sharia is not a problem, if human rights and the democratic process are respected.
I am not sure whether more innocent Iraqis are being tortured by the U.S. than they were by Saddam, but it is clear as day that more are being violently killed.
It’s amazing how often I see this assertion. Have people forgotten more Iraqis are still being dug out of mass graves than have been killed since March 2003, even at the highest estimates of postwar casualties?
Darrell
Listen to left repeat their themes: “Saddam wasn’t that bad”, “The new Iraq will be more hostile toward US than Saddam ever was”, blah, blah.. oh, and this gem:
hilarious that you kooks don’t realize what moonbats you are
ape
Yes, quite a lot of people were being tortured under Saddam. And there were indeed ‘rape rooms’. But ‘kids being blown up per week’ was unfortunately much lower.
StupidityRules
TallDave, I agree with you, there’s nothing wrong about sharia law. We most both see to that it gets implemented in the rest of the world too. There is probably some kind of movement we can join…
add SARCASM tag and stir
capelza
I love how it’s always the “boys” who say that Sharia wouldn’t be THAT bad…I see this all over the blogs. “Well, yeah, it will be bit harder on the women, but hey Freedom is on the March!!!”..blech.
Geoduck
And women could hold jobs outside the home. They could go out of the home without wearing a veil. Funny how male commentators are so easily willing to overlook such things.
SomeCallMeTim
People are suspicious of the way in which data on Hussein’s atrocities are manipulated. IIRC, large numbers of the atrocities were committed up front, in the early 80s or early 90s. What we should compare is something like the average number of atrocities per year in the last five years leading up to the war.
Wouldn’t you consider it disingenous if I said that, under GWB, our national security program had been so dysfunctional that we had averaged 600 US civilian deaths by terrorist per year for the last five years? I would.
Darrell
Women in Iraq can’t hold jobs outside the home now in Iraq?? And where did you read that women in Iraq can’t leave their home without a veil? Are you simply mouthing what you heard someone else say? or do you have evidence of this claim of yours
jahyarain
hilarious that you regressives don’t admit YOUR “leaders” fucked up on such a catastrophic level. we tried to tell you. now it’s in your face and you still won’t admit your ignorance. Get pissed if you want. I couldn’t possibly give a fuck less anymore. Someone needs to say it, so I will. (God, please let me be wrong) After the civil war when the Kurds are chased off into the mountains the Sunnis will join with Iran and my children (and yours) will reap the benifits of the blood on George W. Bush’s hands. And if you still support these murderers, that blood (and the blood of my children…and yours) is on your hands as well. If you support this administration, you support murder.
John S.
Spoken with all the condescension and conviction of someone who is actually living in Iraq!
So, Darrell, regale us with your eye-witness account of how things really are in Iraq.
Darrell
And thus, the left imparts more of their wisdom. Welcome moonbat, what is the color of the sky in your world?
Another Jeff
Everybody is missing the most important question, which is why does a guy like Sullivan, who just blogs and begs his readers for money to pay his bills, and then proceeds to tell everyone how he’s heading up to his second home in Provincetown, need a month-long vacation in the first place?
(and since i mentioned “month-long vacation”, i’m sure a Pandorra’s Box has been opened for cracks about another guy currently on a month-long vacation. Certain people here are predictable that way.)
jahyarain
a bright blue. and moonbat is still better than murderer, murderer
Kimmitt
Um, how so? It sounds like Iraq is still a shithole, except that now our kids are getting killed, too.
John S.
The color of the sky in anybody’s world is going to be much different than in yours, Darrell.
Most of us don’t see through the rose-colored glasses you always seem to be wearing, and therefore our skies are a delightful shade of blue as opposed to the blood-red skies you are so used to seeing.
Boronx
Don’t you think calling it “murder” is rancorous hyperbole that closes off hones debate by using charged emotional language? Killing innocent civilians and sending American troops to their deaths for justifications that all turned out to be lies hardly ammounts to…
…hey, wait a minute, you may have a point there.
Nate
Is that REALLY the most important question here, AJ? I don’t think so. It may, however, be the topic about which you are the best informed.
Nice cowardly dodge! Just because we’re predicatble, doesn’t mean we aren’t right. Right about the war, right about Bush and his floundring flunkies, and right about the hellhole Iraq has turned into since our arrival. You just can’t help being a hypocrite, can you? They must teach you guys that in Wingnut 101.
Another Jeff
Ah, little Natey-Boy is back. Hey, if it wasn’t an important question, how come it’s the only thing you responded to? Get a life, you little tool. Don’t blame me for the fact that you’re a complete failure. Even some liberals make it in Bush’s AmeriKKKa.
Darrell
Um, how so? It sounds like Iraq is still a shithole, except that now our kids are getting killed, too
Let’s see..Children’s prisons gone, new schools built, children being immunized, billions in oil revenues buying food and medicine vs. palaces and guns, economy growing well, no sociopathic dictator rubbing elbows with terrorists…
Message from the thoughtful left: Iraq is no better off without Saddam
BinkyBoy
Double negatives AND fantasy land musings.
You’re just a treasure, D.
Nate
Not to mention *absolute* non-sequiturs! But hey, whatever makes people feel they can actually argue. Sadly typical. And this is when these people are in power!
Don Surber
Unbelievable. There are now Saddam Defenders
I can give you 300,000 reasons why Iraq is better off without Saddam
Funny how the first ones to cry privacy because the government might find out they had an overdue library book are the first to overlook wholesale slaughter, torture and rape by sadly only one of the many ruthless regimes roaming the earth.
Such moral illiteracy disproves the theory of evolution
John S.
You could start with one, and yet you didn’t.
Funny how the first one to claim that a burgeoning Islamic theocracy is better than a secular dictatorship is the last one to offer any explanation of why.
Such intellectual dishonesty proves the theory of evolution, particularly the notion of natural selection.
Brad R.
Hey, we’re constantly asked to disavow Michael Moore. Saith the Sully:
Yet another expression of his version of Christianity from Pat Robertson. Recall that Robertson was on the list fo people consulted by the administration on the Supreme Court nomination. He’s not an outsider, even though every sane conservative says he is the minute he opens his mouth and says something hateful again. He was once a credible presidential candidate. The test of mainstream Republicans’ integrity is if they do not simply denounce this comment but denounce Robertson and his political machine. He is their Michael Moore. Instead, you get mealy-mouthed and exhausted-to-the-bone attempts to blame it on the liberal media.
Don Surber
John S:
300,000 bodies have been exhumed from mass graves in Iraq.
Now then, we took over Bosnia on the same premise. Estimated death toll (not counting Srbrenica’s 8,000 killed while the UN sat on its thumbs) is 10,000 to 30,000.
Any more questions? I enjoy educating libs. Really, I do
Don Surber
By the way, I just assumed people understood the 300,000 reasons without having to spell it out. I never thought people were that clueless. Once again, I underestimate ignorance and lose
(Not knocking your intelligence. I’m sure you are well above average. Ignorance is not knowing something. Reading can cure it.)
BinkyBoy
Don,
Libs already well know about the 300,000. How many were recent? How many were due to the machinations of Bush the Smarter? Did it take killing and maiming another 100,000 to capture him? Seems like Moral Relativeness again.
So before you try to educate, you might want to take a pill of ShuttheFuckup.
Don Surber
So you knew and you still defend Saddam Hussein. By the way, the 100,000 figure came from a survey by an amateur at Johns Hopkins. Even Molly Ivins rebuked it in her famed apology
Sigh
John S.
Don-
I love when folks like you stampede through the door of fallacious arguments in their attempt to snark and deride people who don’t see things their way:
So essentially, you are saying what here? That 300,000 graves over x period of time supercedes the call to action over 30,000 graves? In that case, why the hell aren’t we in Sudan? And how many Iraqi bodies have been put in the ground in just the last two years? 50,000? 100,000? I guess body counts are only important when you are trying to make a point.
Perhaps your feeble attempt at an intelligent quip wherein you provide one very lame (and unrelated) reason for why a theocratic government trumps a dictatorship is the source for the ‘cluelessness’. When you make a comment that indicates just how clueless you are, you shouldn’t be surprised when you leave people wondering what the hell you are talking about.
(Not knocking your virtue. I’m sure your capacity for sincerity is well above average. Lying is purposely misstating something. Telling the truth can cure it.)
I’m not defending Saddam Hussein in the slightest, so please prop that strawman up elsewhere. My sole bone of contention with you (and your deliberate attempt to obfuscate the matter) is your failure to answer the follow question:
What makes a religious theocracy better than a secular dictatorship?
If you cannot answer the question, just say so.
jg
Saddam was a prick, no doubt about it, we’re all better off that he’s gone. It still wasn’t worth a single US soldiers life to do it because there was no pressing need to do it. There were much better uses of our military and certainly much better ways to spend our money. Aren’t the republicans the party that says you can spend your money better than the government can?
Nate
And I like educating wingnuts except for the fact that they’re too far gone to learn anything. Don’t wave Saddam’s mass graves in our faces when it was the Reagan administration who actually helped Saddam and turned a blind eye. Your pal Rummy Rumsfeld was all cozy with Saddam during that whole time.
Idiot.
Boronx
Nothing shor of ghoulish to justify mass murder in the present using mass murder in the past. Let me explain something very basic: you aren’t going to save any of those 300,000. We could have at the time when the murders were taking place, but Republicans in charge had other priortities.
Stormy70
Sully sucks. That is all.
Yep.
John S.
Stormy-
Oh, you care to chime in with your two bits?
I suppose you can explain the virtues of a theocracy over a dictatorship? Or perhaps you can illuminate how by ushering in a new era of oppressive regime in Iraq the United States has done a service by getting rid of the old oppressive regime?
Or are you just looking for Polly to feed you another cracker?
Squawk.
Beej
jahyarain,
The day the Sunnis of Iraq join with Iran, which is predominately Shi’ite, is the day the moon turns purple and the MSM actually manages to report something in-depth. Personal attacks and name calling may be tried and true propaganda techniques, but there are actually a few of us here who would like to hear real, reasoned arguments instead.
Beej
Oh, and Don Surber, thanks for being the adult in this kindergarten.
GT
Theocracy?
What this?
I bolded the second one, becasue I KNOW you’ll read the first one. I em’d the third one so you wouldn’t miss that one either.
Now that might be a tad stronger than “One Nation under God” but a theocracy it ain’t
The Raven
We like Islamic states.
Caw! Caw! Caw!
Stormy70
As the great Rick said, why cast your pearls before the far left commenters at this site? Noone reads them, and they immediately start with the personal attacks. I don’t think Iraq will be a theocracy, or did you fall for the media spin hook, line and sinker? Did you read the text of the constitution, or did you go to Kos and read their commenters for your daily dose of lefty spin?
LEE
reading the posts amuses me…. is don suber the only one with any sense? i NEVER thought anyone could find a way to defend saddam… but here it’s amazing. America… baddddddd. Saddam…. not that bad. the hatred for bush has morphed into a ‘we are wrong regardless’ philosophy. i cannot fathom the stupidity.
Kimmitt
Cite, please.
goonie bird
Andrew sullavan with his pea sized brain h emust be having a relapes of stupidy
jahyarain
as i said, i hope i’m wrong, but note i only said Kurds taking to the mountains. Sunni and Shi’ite is not as unlikely as some would have you think. as for “personal attacks and name calling” i’m not attacking anyone personally. i’m attacking everyone who would support these murderers. i’ve played nice as long as i can. in this case, calling someone a murderer is not name calling, it’s a fact.