Gotta love Holocaust denial- it separates the crazies from the non-crazies real quick:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad escalated his anti-Israeli rhetoric Wednesday, calling the Holocaust a ”myth” used by Europeans to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.
His remarks drew swift condemnation from Israel, Germany, France and the European Commission. Germany said the remarks would affect upcoming negotiations over Iran’s nuclear program, and European Commission President Jose Manual Barroso said Iranians ”do not have the president, or the regime, they deserve.”
Ahmadinejad last week questioned whether the Nazi destruction of 6 million European Jews during World War II occurred and said Israel should be moved to Europe. He also provoked an international outcry in October when he called for Israel to be ”wiped off the map.”
But Wednesday was the first time he publicly denied the Holocaust. Touring southeast Iran, Ahmadinejad said that if Europeans insist the Holocaust happened, then they are responsible and should pay the price.
”Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets,” Ahmadinejad told thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan.
”If you committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price?” Ahmadinejad asked rhetorically.
”This is our proposal: if you committed the crime, then give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country,” he said, developing a theme he raised in Saudi Arabia last week.
German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier called the remarks ”shocking and unacceptable.” He said the German government had summoned the Iranian charge d’affaires to make ”unmistakably clear” its displeasure.
Another crazy SOB running the show in that cesspool of a region.
From the comments:
Yep. And this opinion is shared by Almadinejad’s Shi’ite brethren in Iraq, folks who are about to win the most seats in their new Parliament.
And for this we sacrificed the lives 2,100+ American servicepeople and half a trillion dollars in national treasure? So far?
More bad polling info for Bush Bobbleheads. Appears the Dems are showing some good numbers going into the 2006 midterms. And in “blue” states the Dem lead is a full 20 points. Blue state GOPS must be crapping their silk britches.
Sheer nonsense, for obvious reasons. The notion that the crazies running the show in Iran are reflective of free and open elections, and will be duplicated in Iraq, is patently absurd. I systematically reject this nonsense.
Mac Buckets
In other news, French opinion of Iran just soared 600%.
Zifnab
Good thing he fails to recognize the rather humbling fact that the land that was Isreal and Palestine used to be a British colony – thus neither Palestinian nor Isreali territory. That’s right Mr. Ahmadinejad, Europe owned your crappy little patch of sand for a century or two. If not for a couple of World Wars, the Middle East probably wouldn’t even exist today.
But revisionist history is fun, so whateva.
Davebo
I believe this should be categorized as “Democracy in Action”.
And if you think this is bad, just give our new experiment in spreading democracy a few more years.
demimondian
Now, John, do you understand why people like me demanded that Iraq be a real and verifiable threat before we invaded? The other two countries on the “Axis of evil” were dangerous, but Hussein was contained. As a consequence of the BushCo lies, our armed forces are tied up in Iraq, when they’re needed as a threat to Iran.
Mike S
When I was in London I had a couple of long conversations with a Muslim man who held mostly moderate views of the world. At about 3:00am on my last night there he said that the Holocaust was a hoax. I was in bed at 3:10.
Paddy O'Shea
Yep. And this opinion is shared by Almadinejad’s Shi’ite brethren in Iraq, folks who are about to win the most seats in their new Parliament.
And for this we sacrificed the lives 2,100+ American servicepeople and half a trillion dollars in national treasure? So far?
More bad polling info for Bush Bobbleheads. Appears the Dems are showing some good numbers going into the 2006 midterms. And in “blue” states the Dem lead is a full 20 points. Blue state GOPS must be crapping their silk britches.
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1050
srv
Actually, our Crusade, policies and words have consequences. As in, you put NK and Iran in the Axis-of-Evil, invade Iraq and it becomes pretty clear you better have nukes if you want to keep Uncle Sam off your yard.
If Iran was so maniacally bent on nukes, why didn’t the build them in the 80’s? 90’s?
George has taken his nightmares and made them real.
Paul Wartenberg
Follow the trend of what the idiot’s saying: he’s basically pushing the idea, no matter how reckless or misinformed, that Israel simply shouldn’t be there and that Europe or the Americas take the Jews away. Never mind the historical fact that Jews originate from that region and lived there for thousands of years before empires and wars drove them to exile. Never mind the truth that BOTH Jews and Palestinians have a right to claim their lands, and that the truth is a peaceful solution needs to be found to settle those claims and bring about calm between the nations. You can tell this Iranian fraud is only saying this not to support Palestine ’cause if he did he’d be pushing for stabilizing Gaza, but to appease his extremist supporters who hate for the sake of hating.
Shygetz
Do you think that Iranian idiot believes what he is saying, or is he just playing to the crowd? I would imagine that Holocaust denial is a popular brand of Zionist conspiracy theory over there (much as it is here, although Zionist conspiracy theory is less popular).
One thing you gotta hand to Germany, they are serious about never letting the Holocaust be forgotten. When the Germans do national guilt, they do it efficiently and thoroughly.
One question is, will Iraq willingly elect a government as regressive (and batshit loony) as Iran? If so, then what? After “exporting freedom” to Iraq (BTW, does that show up on our net trade balance sheet?) can we later decide that Iraq and freedom doesn’t mix, and export secular despotism?
Paddy O'Shea
Shygetz: Iraq will elect a govt very similar to that found in Iran.
Have you begun to appreciate the full magnitude of Bush’s blunder yet?
Steve S
It seems that the further away we get from WWII, the more people there are who fail to recognize what happened.
From what I have seen, this attitude of his is increasingly common in southwest asia.
But then, considering the amount of historical revisionism we see even here in the states(like the recent insistence that our Civil War was not about Slavery), who can be surprised?
Paul Wartenberg
Not yet. Wait for the Iraq Civil War to break out and for Iran to nuke Tel Aviv. Then we can appreciate Bush’s blunders (if we live that long).
Steve S
Both? From what I have seen watching US politics… You start out with a lie, but the more you repeat it, the more you start to believe it yourself.
Mike S
The guy I spoke to believed it fully. It wasn’t that there was no holocaust but that the numbers were grossly inflated.
Richard Bottoms
>Now, John, do you understand why people like me demanded that >Iraq be a real and verifiable threat before we invaded?
We basically handed Iraq over to the mullahs in Iran based on out bungling the occupation. Now we have a soon to be nuclear capable Iran which we are able to do jack shit about because our forces are bogged down next door. And of course our credibility in matters of nuclear proliferation have been so enhanced by findinf zrro WMD’s last time out.
Isreal has little choice but to try to take out Iran’s capability and soon. Unless we do it first.
Want to wager the fools in charge at the moment will handle war with Iran any better?
Shitheads.
Shygetz
Oh, I fully realize that there are genuine Holocaust deniers out there. But this guy is the President of a fairly significant nation–I would hope he has a little more information than the average Iranian on the street. Is he an asshole, or a dumb asshole?
Mike S
The guy I talked to was very intelligent and we had some facinating conversations. Look at it this way. Some of the idiots that say that Bush was actually involved in blowing up the world trade center are PHD’s.
ppGaz
( swallows chewing gum )
Uh, er, there is nothing that insures a good outcome for your endeavors than “systematic rejection” of things you don’t like!
With thinking like that, we could all get jobs at the White House! I systematically reject the notion that …. whatever.
Bush, yesterday with Brian Williams (or whoever the coiffed head was he was talking to) …. “I don’t have to read their opinions.” That’s how you get to be president, see, by systematically rejecting the bad thoughts.
Gotta go, I have some bad ideas to systematically reject down at the office ……
Shygetz
I actually do not reject this as nonsense. Revisit this opinion in five years, and we’ll see what road Iraq has chosen to take. I personally think that these guys are a bit eager to piss away at least a large part of the freedom we gave them. But we won’t see their true colors (in either the liberal or theocratic direction) until our military leaves, I think.
Richard Bottoms
Of course given the current security situation of hundreds more terrorist attacks worldwide so far this year, a nuclear capable North Korea and a soon to follow Iran we must believe that the prospects of Democrats doing better is just too hard to believe.
But no matter, at least fags can’tget married and that’s all that matters.
ats
How would denying the Holocaust please the French? As I recall, arch-denier Dr. Robert Faurisson is in jail (after nearly being beaten to death) in FRANCE.
Even the most looney notion usually arises from a neutrino of plausability. In this case the Iranian demagogue is making use of the (c.f. Norman Finkelstein) argument that the Holocaust has been used by a) profiteers to shake down Swiss banks 2) right-wing zionists to shut up Israel’s critics. The fact that Iran uses this does not make it false. Only factual arguments will refute it.
As Chomsky said, not honoring the free speech rights of people you despise is the same as not honoring free speech at all.
Richard Bottoms
>How would denying the Holocaust please the French?
Because all real Americans hate the French.
BTW, most folks seem not to know we are fighting side by side with them in Afghanistan. But why let facts get in the way of a good hate.
Mike S
If you’re a dishonest idiot anything can be said about the French.
My favorite French bashing was in a mass E-mail I recieved a few years back. It claimed that the Frnch were “Godless.” Anybody who has ever visited Paris knows that you can’t walk two blocks without tripping over a Cathedral, Church or family shrine.
Shygetz
Yeah, but that’s Catholic, not Christian. They worship the pope, not God. Jeez, don’t you know anything?
TallDave
Thanks you, I’ve been saying this for awhile. I’m glad I’m not the only that one understands this.
This is another version of the same flawed “if we give them democracy, they’ll elect extremists” argument. Yes, but then the extremists will have to effectively govern, and will quickly be cast aside when they don’t. All part of the process.
Yes, but they’re all 200 years old and empty.
W.B. Reeves
This guy doesn’t have pander to holocaust denial to prove his wack job credentials to me. He believes that religious clerics should run civil government since they alone are able to decipher the word of God. Such folks are impervious to fact.
That said, the substantial point is that the holocaust was a European production. The Palestinians didn’t gas, shoot and otherwise murder 6 million Jews plus several million non-Jewish victims. That was all the handiwork of Europeans, not just the Germans but their sympathizers and colaborators as well. You’d never know it to hear the kind of rhetoric that the Likudniks, Kahanists and their allies direct towards the Palestinians and Arabs generally.
It’s hardly surprising that using the holocaust as an excuse for Israeli actions in the middle East would produce a negative reaction.
Paddy O'Shea
Tall Dave’s bobble on this one is hilarious. So the Shi’ites of Iraq regard themselves and their fundamentalist politicians as being extremists, and therefore they won’t vote for themselves?
(He’s probably confusing the majority Shi’ites with the terrorists, who are mostly Sunni, and quite extremist.)
Dave? They’re going to vote Republican, and soon Wal*Marts and McDonald hamburger stands will be opening everywhere. You should go invest your money in Iraqi golf courses. I understand that everyone there will be taking the sport up real soon because their hero george Bush likes to shoot a round now and then..
Houstonboy
Reeves
It’s hardly surprising that using the holocaust as an excuse for Israeli actions in the middle East would produce a negative reaction
Of course, Jew hatred is the fault of the Jews.
How convenient.
WB, you will mourn the Jews when every last one of them is toasted, either in an oven or in a nuke frying pan.
I can smell you a mile away.
ppGaz
Right, of course. The fact that 2000 years of regional history points to the liklihood of various hideous outcomes, including civil war, theocracies, and despotic shitheads like Hussein …. notwithstanding.
Dr. Pangloss himself couldn’t paint a rosier scenario.
And this is the kind of crap we have to listen to from a crowd that has been wrong about every single fucking thing having to do with this region for at least the last 25 years if not longer.
Spare me yet another round of amateur nationbuilding and forecasting from these fucking potatoheads, please.
Is there anyone here who can argue that TallDave is where we should go to get our prognostications about the future of the Iran-Iraq region in particular, or the Middle East in general? Hands? Anyone?
Aren’t you the onionhead who tried to draw parallels between Iraq and the American colonies?
Steve S
The only connection between Israel and the Holocaust is the plain simple fact that many Jews feel they aren’t about to ever let someone else control them or their safety.
Israel existed as an idea before WWII. The population grew in size because of people fleeing the holocaust.
The only reason it came into reality was because the British said “Enough of this shit” and started abandoning their colonies. It happens that the Trans-Jordanian region was one such colony, which they tried to split up into Israel and Palestine. The Palestinians rejected that and launched a war against the Israelis.
Again, the aspect of this which leads us to talks about the holocaust is the rhetoric from the Palestinians and other Arabs in the region of driving the Jews into the sea.
The Jews aren’t going to allow that, and you know I don’t fucking blame them. I’ll send ’em guns. I’ll stand side by side with them in the trenches before I ever let that happen.
The Arabs need to fucking get over this, and recognize reality. That’s the only way towards peace.
Houstonboy
Steve S
You have no idea how courageous and wonderful your words are.
Call me insane
And they have nuclear weapons.
ppGaz
Can’t really argue with the idea.
However …. I have seen Palestinians and Israelis saying exactly the same words (not to each other, but to an intermediary) on some documentary:
“God intended that our people live on this land.”
When you have that kind of impasse, where do you start?
Listening to them and watching them, they all look and sound crazy.
Mac Buckets
Oui, ‘ow could anyone have zees crazee notion about us being anti-Semitic in France?
Signed,
Jean Marie Le Pen
Houstonboy
I truly pray for peace in Israel and Palestine. Most of my family lives in Tel Aviv and I want nothing more than for them to lead normal lives.
I want nothing more than the Palestinians to do the same.
Raise good children and do some business.
That’s mighty Jewish of me, ain’t it?
Bob In Pacifica
There was a good interview on the BBC by an expert on Iranian politics. This guy Ahmadinejad is talking about having a green aura around him, somehow signifying his holiness. He’s also talking about the return of the “first imam,” which I presume is the local version of the messiah story.
I remember at the time of the Iranian elections that some clumsy Bush Administration support for this guy’s opponents actually pushed people into his camp. Still, even I can’t lay this lunatic at Bush’s feet.
There are people all over the world who believe in religious magical thinking instead of reality though, and some of them get political power. Maybe in Iran they’re having a “war against the guys who are against the first imam.”
By the way, last weekend there were Holocaust deniers marching in Toledo, Ohio. My governor, at his own wedding, made a toast to Kurt Waldheim after he had been exposed as an SS officer connected to Nazi cleansing of Jews in Eastern Europe. My governor’s dad was also an SS officer and probably was involved in the post-war ratlines smuggling war criminals out of Europe.
Our President Bush’s granddad helped finance the Nazis into power and war and thus directly gave economic aid during the time of the Holocaust, and helped create the Bush family fortune with his dirty little dealings, and no one in the MSM seems to care.
So in America we have plenty of Holocaust deniers. And we also have plenty of Holocaust ignorers. What does it mean you don’t want to know that our President has lots of money in the bank because of Grandpappy’s moneymaking deals with the Nazis?
Okay, George Bush doesn’t claim to have a green aura, but he claims that God talks to him, that he’s the chosen one to bring freedom to the world. How do you think they’re handling that in Tehran?
W.B. Reeves
I suggest you get your sinus checked. Unlike yourself, I don’t buy into the Israel-equals-all-Jews worldview. Neither do I belive, as you apparently do, that Jewish people as whole are responsible for the actions of the state of Israel. Ahmadinejad would probably agree with you though.
BTW, I never suggested that “Jew hatred” was the fault of the Jews. That is your own invention, which indicates that you are unwilling or unable to deal with my real point: neither the Palestinians nor Arabs at large have any responsibility for the holocaust. Any suggestion that they should pay the bill for a genocide committed by Europeans is simply stupid, not to mention unjust.
Steve, if you’re interested in fighting anti-Semitism there’s plenty to do right here in the good old U.S.A. I’ve spent a fair portion of my life doing precisely that. As for recognizing reality, recognizing that reality has more than one side would be a good first step. Pretending that whatever the state of Israel does at any time, under any government is always justified, or that any criticism of that state’s policies is the product of anti-Semitism is at best delusional.
ats
“Oui, ‘ow could anyone have zees crazee notion about us being anti-Semitic in France?
Signed,
Jean Marie Le Pen”
Are you under the impression that Le Pen runs France? Sillier still, are you under the impression that Le Pen has achieved his notoriety by bashing Jews? Le Pen has been a inveterate foe of Arab immigrants. Thereto related, there have been far more hate crimes perpetrated against Arabs than Jews in France— yet one would be hard put to learn that in the “free press” in the US.
Dumping on the French is the mark of cultural philisitines who have their envious noses pressed against the cultural windowpane. Learn a foreign language. Get a life.
Houstonboy
WB Reeves
You words: “It’s hardly surprising that using the holocaust as an excuse for Israeli actions in the middle East would produce a negative reaction”
Sounds like you are blaming Jew hatred on the Jews.
I don’t read between the lines.
Bob In Pacifica
Shouldn’t Stormy70 put down her drink and say something about walling off the Palestinians about now?
Ken
“We basically handed Iraq over to the mullahs in Iran based on out bungling the occupation. Now we have a soon to be nuclear capable Iran which we are able to do jack shit about because our forces are bogged down next door.”
Not so much “bogged down” as “forward deployed”.
The trouble in Iraq is coming in part from… Iran! Instead of hanging around Iraq waiting for them, it’s time to go on the offensive. Stopping the mullahs from getting nukes is definitely a much better use of our forces than babysitting Iraq indefinitely.
“Now, John, do you understand why people like me demanded that Iraq be a real and verifiable threat before we invaded? The other two countries on the “Axis of evil” were dangerous, but Hussein was contained. As a consequence of the BushCo lies, our armed forces are tied up in Iraq, when they’re needed as a threat to Iran.”
They’re present as a threat to Iran. Their equipment still works. They’re ranks aren’t depleted. They’ve got a much better staging area to actually act against Iran than they would have if Hussein still ran that patch of ground. The only possible problem with an invasion of Iran would be… domestic political opposition. And that domestic political opposition is coming from… Bush’s opponents! The situation on the ground presents no insurmountable impediments to overthrowing the mullahs and replacing them with a saner government that would, among other things, stop sending jihadis to make life hell for all concerned in Iraq.
Richard Bottoms
>The situation on the ground presents no insurmountable >impediments to overthrowing the mullahs and replacing them >with a saner government that would, among other things, stop >sending jihadis to make life hell for all concerned in Iraq.
Well the current situation in iraq points to us doing it so well there, why of course I have confidence GW will do a similarly capable job next door.
Jon H
John, it’s just the Iranian equivalent of stoking your base with anti-gay rhetoric.
Jon H
“The only possible problem with an invasion of Iran would be… domestic political opposition. ”
No, Ken, the problem with an invasion of Iran would be… that Iraq would become even more hostile towards Americans, and American supply lines and staging areas would be in hostile territory.
Iraqis already fought an unwanted war against Iran because of one tyrant. They probably won’t care to be brought into a second.
Bob In Pacifica
The problem with a war with Iran is that the Gulf of Hormuz would be shut down until a successful conclusion for Iran; the world would be denied Mideast oil for the length of the war. People who use oil (the whole wide world) would hate us for yet another disastrous war, all Muslims would hate us. Even Islamic “allies” like Egypt and Pakistan, which does have nukes, would be obliged to join against us. Forget any invasion force in Iran, our troops in Iraq could very well find themselves without safe supply lines. A modern army in Iraq without supplies would be doomed.
Collapse of industry by lack of oil would kick off a world depression. Countries who are carrying the US’s debt (China, Japan) would be forced by economics and domestic politics to shut off the money flow, thus making life in the US, so dependent of foreign oil, impossible.
Cannibalism will ensue…
W.B. Reeves
Are you under the impression that only Jews make this argument? Are you under the misapprehension that all Jews make this argument? I ask because the statement quoted refers only to the specious argument described. I never attributed it to the Jewish people as a whole. It’s an argument I have heard made by both Jews and non-Jews.
Reading between the lines is precisely what you are doing. That, or you’re simply fabricating to suit your prejudices.
Steve S
By learning how to share.
I have a friend who is Palestinian Christian, and the truth is that the conflict is largely continued because of extremists on both sides. They do this so as to gain power respectively.
Both sides have problems. But frankly the Palestinian side needs to learn how to surrender to reality. It ain’t going to happen though, and as such their lot will continue to suck and they will continue to die.